Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 01:17:24 Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> On 10/29/2015 8:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool,
> > or pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to
> > do that. Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the
> > tormach ER-20 adaptor with a big Crescent wrench
>
> How about switching to the Tormach R8 quick change collet and holders?
> They have standard holders for manual changes and ones with a groove
> for auto changers.
>
> Many people have adapted 3/8" butterfly impact wrenches to mills for
> power drawbar conversions. I assume they don't run a lot of air
> pressure.
>
I once saw a mechanic in a so-cal tranny shop, using a monster 1/2" 
drive, trying to remove the u-joint yoke retainer nut from the rear of a 
middle 50's series Buick Dynaflow he had on the bench. A good 5 minutes 
of hammering on it without budging it.  He had also tried an 18" breaker 
bar.  Guy on the next bench picks up his butterfly 3/8, puts a good 
solid 1/2" adapter on it, walks over and grabs the socket off the 
monster, and says lemme show you how I do it. Making sure the socket was 
well seated, he rocks the butterfly to the left & fishes the nut out of 
the socket about 1 second later.  Time to send that 1/2" back for a 
rebuild.

> If I ever get my ProLight 2000 into regular use I'll get the Tormach
> R8 stuff for it.
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 12:23:16 Dave Cole wrote:

> Yeah, but you would need to buy all new clothes...

That reminds me of a Sci-Fi novel I read about a decade back, 
called "Next"

> Dave
>
> > It seems to me that we probably still have the DNA for a prehensile
> > tail, it has probably been turned off rather than deleted. That
> > would be useful.
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Erik Christiansen]

On 29.10.15 11:28, Bruce Layne wrote:
> tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> 3 collets
> 
> 
> I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our 
> Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack 
> full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50 
> each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but 
> that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a lathe.
> 
> I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow 
> boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

That is cheap, but you still need to put a collet in each one.
A DIY TTS compatible tool holder blank, drilled & reamed, with the tool
held by a grubscrew would probably do for woodworking, e.g. :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2w8cYXt5_o

I'd make 'em on the lathe, rather than futz on a small wobbly mill, as
he does. But he says they're costing him $5 a piece, ready to go.

Dunno how good that kind of holder is for precision work. How much
eccentricity would the grubscrew introduce on a tight fit?

I'd also be tempted to use a slot drill or end mill for approaching the
final size, to leave a flat lip at the bottom of the hole, for the tool
to butt up against.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 10/29/2015 8:00 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Air pressure, pushing on the underside of the piston would allow a
> smaller piston, but with MT-3, would still need a ton+ of push, and 3 or
> 4 tons  to press down and eject.  Hell on spindle bearings, but I've
> been ejecting MT-3 collets with a 24 oz hammer applied hard enough its
> peening the top of the bolt and I've had to grind that "upset" back off
> the top of the hex (or square, I have two bolts, one Metric &
> one 'Merican, to make the socket fit about 4 times now.

On the 12 speed drill/mill I used to have, I used a "pickle fork" 
(automotive ball joint separator) to pop its MT2 toolholders out.

Having a drill press based head, it only had weedy sub-1/4" metric 
drawbar which was useless for driving the tapers out.

Making a fork with a wider slot for MT3 wouldn't be difficult. I bought 
mine at Harbor Freight for cheap $.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Peter Blodow]

Gentlemen,
my old little Steinel vertical mill, older than the Black Forest, has a 
MT3 (MK3 in German). Above this, the bore is drilled hollow 14 mm all 
the way through to the top of the machine. The collet holder (1 - 20mm) 
that came with it has M12 inside threads at the end and can be fastened 
by a 12 mm pulling bar, if necessary. I made all my other tool holders 
the same way.

An almost new large milling head that was given to me because it was 
said to rattle and to be instable. I decided that a MT3 holder was way 
too thin and too long for such a big head. So I figured out the outside 
taper angle at the lower end of the quill, some 60 mm thick, and turned 
a plate shaped holder fitting over the outside of the quill. It will be 
pulled up by a long bar just the same. You should see the old maid 
making chips with a big 8 blade cutting head in alu at high speed! 
Furthermore, this construction is rather short and gives me more height 
between the tool and the table. Consider unconventional methods, too.

Peter



> On 30 October 2015 at 03:09, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
>> MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free
>> holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should
>> resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or
>> other tricks.
> Yes, for axial loading such as drilling. There is no doubt that they
> work perfectly for this in millions of lathe tailstocks and drill
> presses.
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Ed]

On 10/30/2015 07:56 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 October 2015 at 03:09, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
>> MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free
>> holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should
>> resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or
>> other tricks.
> Yes, for axial loading such as drilling. There is no doubt that they
> work perfectly for this in millions of lathe tailstocks and drill
> presses.
>
> But I think asking one to work for milling (unless you always make
> sure you do a nice hard plunge cut at the beginning) sounds like one
> of those things that will be perfectly OK most of the time, but then
> won't be.
>
Every Morse taper milling machine I have seen has a draw bar or a keeper 
key to hold the arbor.
My HBM has a #5 MT and will loose the tool holder if I do not put in the 
keeper.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 07:03:00 andy pugh wrote:

> On 30 October 2015 at 01:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Still trying to conjure up an automatic tool catcher
>
> Does it need to be automatic? The drawbar isn't.

I have visions of it being so.

  Something that would drop a wrench/socket on the drawbar, and a 1/4 
second blast at full power of the motor.  Let it turn half a turn before 
the socket hits a stop hard enough to break it loose. then a 100 rpm 
command till it fell out, insert the next tool, command 100 revs in the 
other direction to draw it back in, and let it hit the stop going the 
other way. Even at 100 rpm, I can't hold it so I'd think that would be 
tight enough.

  I can imagine doing all that in a classic ladder script, but shifting 
the head to low gear will need a major redesign of that gear shift 
mechanism.  Something that can push-pull a lever while the  motor is 
commanded to 5 or 10 rpm's.  Slow & possibly spring loaded so the gears 
can mesh when the teeth are aligned without damaging them.  If the 
artificially stiff crap is removed, (something I haven't investigated 
yet but suspect is all in that huge knob it almost takes both hands to 
turn) a windshield wiper motor ought to be able to handle that, with 
suitable mods to its parking switches. AFAIK, all its doing is sliding a 
gear up and down a splined shaft.  From the noise, I'd have to say the 
gears are straight spur gears, with little or no end thrust to contain.

Jon's (Pico Systems) pwm servo controller can make that motor do anything 
I want it to do, including a fwd to reverse (or back fwd) in about 1 
second flat while running at 2500 revs.  Use some of that power to run 
the spindle with the drawbar bolt locked.  I don't think it needs more 
than 1/2 turn after breaking it loose unless the R8 is sticky.  So far, 
that has been a very minor problem. My fingers on the top of the bolt 
once its loose have always been sufficient to eject it from that 
condition.

> A c-shaped plate that could pivot across to catch the larger diameter
> might suffice.

I have a vision of a plate full of C slots, say perhaps 4 or 5, whatever 
it would take, to be swung as an assembly, to receive the falling tool, 
raise the head to clear the tops of the TTS studs, then turn the plate 
to bring the next tool under the spindle, set the spindle down onto it, 
and run the spindle the other direction to pull it in and lock it.  
Raise the head far enough to clear, swing the tool carrying wheel back 
out of the way, and go back to work with the next tool.  Can you say an 
ATC for a G0704?

That would take some tool table editing on a per job basis, to tell LCNC 
which pocket tool "14" is in, but that doesn't appear to be a major 
hassle.

What would be considered, strictly on any one given jobs basis, to be the 
minimum number of available slots?  4? 6? This particular job only needs 
3, and one of them is also a different file to load.

> Something like 
> https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/October302015#62113
>93457778332834

Page not found.

> Though something like that could be persuaded to operate
> automatically, maybe through a Bowden cable operated by a cam on the
> side of the column, so that it pops in at the top of travel.
>
> > since I don't have
> > the magic spell (or a vitamin supplement) that will grow at least 1
> > more arm.
>
> It seems to me that we probably still have the DNA for a prehensile
> tail, it has probably been turned off rather than deleted. That would
> be useful.

  Chuckle. :)  Yeah, its probably still in the genome.  Lots of "trash" 
DNA in there yet.  We call a miss-fire, or a potential enhancement, a 
birth defect now-a-days.

  I have seen babies with 6 fingers and toes, all perfectly formed and 
100% working, but they take them off!

  I have wondered to myself if thats the next step in the evolution of  
this tool designing and using critter that is us. ;-)  Enhancing our 
ability to use the tools we can build?  Sadly, thats not "PC" to allow 
that.  I won't say flat out that we are playing God, but 
that 'corrective surgery' sure fits what I've observed.  How dare we 
evolve?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 03:09, Jon Elson  wrote:

> MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free
> holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should
> resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or
> other tricks.

Yes, for axial loading such as drilling. There is no doubt that they
work perfectly for this in millions of lathe tailstocks and drill
presses.

But I think asking one to work for milling (unless you always make
sure you do a nice hard plunge cut at the beginning) sounds like one
of those things that will be perfectly OK most of the time, but then
won't be.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 10:31:24 andy pugh wrote:

> On 30 October 2015 at 14:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Page not found.
>
> Maybe I needed to turn sharing on.
>
> does this work?
> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fpwWnXQ9_S8_T6wT6Ri81dMTjNZETYmy
>PJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

That works, but that isn't the image I have wandering around in the back 
of my mind.  There's a small gap between the top of the nut, and the 
larger OD of the TTS adapter, that I have a vision of engaging with the 
rotary plate holding several tools by that means. With a counterbore in 
the top face of the plate to keep them from jiggling out as the whole 
assembly pivots in and out of position.

Unforch, I haven't mastered a cad proggy well enough to draw it.

Sketchup, someday...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Kasunich]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 30 October 2015 10:20:26 John Kasunich wrote:
> > On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:

>>> $16 each in quantities of ten
>>> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

>> That's either a good price or it isn't.
 
> It is, compared to the Tormach version at 2x that.
> 
>> In the case of this particular seller, you get your $60 worth.  I
>> bought the exact same article from the same seller.  He shipped
>> them DHL and they arrived from across the ocean in 3 days.
> 
> The fleabay adv doesn't say a thing about that fast a delivery, just 
> vague promises of sometime in the 2nd or 3rd week of November.

Yeah, that is the default for China.  And keep in mind, nothing is 
guaranteed.  Maybe I got lucky.  Many of these China sellers
(including this one, for smaller items) use a very inexpensive
"e-packet" shipping process that goes thru China Post and then
the US Postal Service.  That does take a while.  It might be that
the 10-pack of toolholders is too big for e-packet.

A google later yep, e-packet is limited to 4.4 lbs.
http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m08/i31/s02
That is how so many china sellers can offer free shipping on 
small items

> I'll get the collets from LMS on super Tuesday if history is any indicator.
> Next week for these would sure be the icing on the cake. And worth the
> $60 bucks. ;-)

Do you actually need (or want) ten?

If you get two or three people who want two or three holders each
this might be an opportunity for someone to buy the 10-pack and
split it up.

If you only need two or three for this project I could probably ship
you a couple of mine.  I don't need all 10 right now.  But I will want
them eventually, so it would be a loan, not a sale.

 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 10:20:26 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 09:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:
> > > I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the
> > > slow boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I
> > > spent.
> > >
> > > www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633
> >
> > Nice, and the price is quite decent, but shipping at $60 is
> > apparently his profit margin. If you listen carefully you can hear
> > the gears going around in my card case. And the dice rolling in the
> > background. :)  Now to find some ER-20 collets at a decent price.
>
> The "profit in the shipping" thing is just a game.  Add up the total
> cost, divide by the number of tool-holders, and they are $16 each. 
> That's either a good price or it isn't.

It is, compared to the Tormach version at 2x that.

> In the case of this particular seller, you get your $60 worth.  I
> bought the exact same article from the same seller.  He shipped them
> DHL and they arrived from across the ocean in 3 days.  Complete with a
> phone call the day before they arrived to tell me that a signature was
> required and how I could manage that if I wasn't going to be home. 
> Impressive service, much better than the usual from UPS or FedEx.

The fleabay adv doesn't say a thing about that fast a delivery, just 
vague promises of sometime in the 2nd or 3rd week of November.  I'll get 
the collets from LMS on super Tuesday if history is any indicator.  Next 
week for these would sure be the icing on the cake. And worth the $60 
bucks. ;-)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Kasunich]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 09:13 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:

> > I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow
> > boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> >
> > www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633
> 
> Nice, and the price is quite decent, but shipping at $60 is apparently 
> his profit margin. If you listen carefully you can hear the gears going 
> around in my card case. And the dice rolling in the background. :)  Now 
> to find some ER-20 collets at a decent price.

The "profit in the shipping" thing is just a game.  Add up the total cost,
divide by the number of tool-holders, and they are $16 each.  That's either
a good price or it isn't.

In the case of this particular seller, you get your $60 worth.  I bought the
exact same article from the same seller.  He shipped them DHL and 
they arrived from across the ocean in 3 days.  Complete with a phone
call the day before they arrived to tell me that a signature was required 
and how I could manage that if I wasn't going to be home.  Impressive
service, much better than the usual from UPS or FedEx.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 14:14, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Page not found.

Maybe I needed to turn sharing on.

does this work?
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/fpwWnXQ9_S8_T6wT6Ri81dMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink



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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Dave Cole]

Yeah, but you would need to buy all new clothes...

Dave

> It seems to me that we probably still have the DNA for a prehensile
> tail, it has probably been turned off rather than deleted. That would
> be useful.
>

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 14:45, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> That works, but that isn't the image I have wandering around in the back
> of my mind.

I can see that, it was just intended as a quick and dirty way to catch
the holder for manual changes until you grow more limbs.

A loop of string with a hook might be quick and easy. It just needs to
stop the holder dropping all the way out.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 30 October 2015 11:22:42 John Kasunich wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 30 October 2015 10:20:26 John Kasunich wrote:
> > > On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:
> > >
> >>> $16 each in quantities of ten
> >>> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633
> >>
> >> That's either a good price or it isn't.
> >
> > It is, compared to the Tormach version at 2x that.
> >
> >> In the case of this particular seller, you get your $60 worth.  I
> >> bought the exact same article from the same seller.  He shipped
> >> them DHL and they arrived from across the ocean in 3 days.
> >
> > The fleabay adv doesn't say a thing about that fast a delivery, just
> > vague promises of sometime in the 2nd or 3rd week of November.
>
> Yeah, that is the default for China.  And keep in mind, nothing is
> guaranteed.  Maybe I got lucky.  Many of these China sellers
> (including this one, for smaller items) use a very inexpensive
> "e-packet" shipping process that goes thru China Post and then
> the US Postal Service.  That does take a while.  It might be that
> the 10-pack of toolholders is too big for e-packet.
>
> A google later yep, e-packet is limited to 4.4 lbs.
> http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m08/i31/s02
> That is how so many china sellers can offer free shipping on
> small items
>
> > I'll get the collets from LMS on super Tuesday if history is any
> > indicator. Next week for these would sure be the icing on the cake.
> > And worth the $60 bucks. ;-)
>
> Do you actually need (or want) ten?

Ten of the TTS adapters?  Thats a bit like Orville and his popcorn, the 
bowl is forever one handfull less than what you wanted  when its been 
emptied. :)

That will give me 4 each of 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8".  No clue what I'll ever 
do with 4 each .375" collets though, router bits jump from 1/4" to 1/2".  
If I ever need the 1/2", I've an R-8 for that.

Just for S & G, I took that big fugly half a pound of satin finished 
metal gear shift knob off, squirreled the detent parts into a spare 
collet box & put the knob back on.  Putting it in low range, very easily 
done now, and with the drawbar bolt held by its wrench, and an estimated 
15 degree run till the wrench hit the motor housing and stopped, a 20 
rpm fwd command was more than enough to drop the TTS tool into my hand.  
Setting the spindle into reverse & holding the TTS adapter in, it 
trapped my hand between the wrench and the motor houseing, and is 
probably tighter now than I have ever put the wrench to it by hand.  I 
wasn't injured, but did have to hit the stop button to get my hand, and 
the wrench free again.

The question of "does the spindle motor have the huevos to do it?, seems 
to be  answered in the affirmative, rather loudly.

So next is to make an about 5 port wheel & figure out a ratcheting 
mechanism to turn it, probably involving a 2nd windshield wiper motor.

Home will be easy, rig the home switch to bridge the wipers motors 
parking switch with a small enough R to keep it going until the home 
switch opens.  Call that Pocket 0.  Then to find the pocket needed, bang 
that resistor across the home switch with another relay, and count the 
current pulses as its park switch goes by, stopping it when the correct 
number of counts has arrived.

  Followed by a fairly long wheelbased vertical axle to swing it into, 
and back out of position.  Possibly also run by a wiper motor.

And the code to bang the motor, and shift the gears.  Sounds doable to 
me. ;-)

But, I could well have to pester you kind folks about interfacing 
questions too, since this is dirt I've not played in before...

> If you get two or three people who want two or three holders each
> this might be an opportunity for someone to buy the 10-pack and
> split it up.
>
> If you only need two or three for this project I could probably ship
> you a couple of mine.  I don't need all 10 right now.  But I will want
> them eventually, so it would be a loan, not a sale.

Thanks for the offer John, but sure as heck, I'd forget where I got them 
by the time you'd want them back.  At my age, short term memory is, to 
be kind, poor. So I'd druther not go down that path if I can help it.  
In the meantime, I'll survive.  But I am NOT turning on a microphone in 
the shop either. :)  Some of what has been said out there is best not 
recorded.

>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Jon Elson]

On 10/30/2015 07:56 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 30 October 2015 at 03:09, Jon Elson  wrote:
>
>> MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free
>> holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should
>> resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or
>> other tricks.
> Yes, for axial loading such as drilling. There is no doubt that they
> work perfectly for this in millions of lathe tailstocks and drill
> presses.
>
> But I think asking one to work for milling (unless you always make
> sure you do a nice hard plunge cut at the beginning) sounds like one
> of those things that will be perfectly OK most of the time, but then
> won't be.
>
It works a lot better for straight-flute cutters, like 
horizontal mill arbors and such.  Yes, the spiral flute 
cutters like typical end mills will pull the holder out of 
the spindle.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 01:47, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Still trying to conjure up an automatic tool catcher

Does it need to be automatic? The drawbar isn't.

A c-shaped plate that could pivot across to catch the larger diameter
might suffice. Something like
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/October302015#6211393457778332834

Though something like that could be persuaded to operate
aitomatically, maybe through a Bowden cable operated by a cam on the
side of the column, so that it pops in at the top of travel.

> since I don't have
> the magic spell (or a vitamin supplement) that will grow at least 1 more
> arm.

It seems to me that we probably still have the DNA for a prehensile
tail, it has probably been turned off rather than deleted. That would
be useful.

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[Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings all;

This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be 
changed 4 times per end of a board processed.

This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am spending 
about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory stuffs.

At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to see if 
the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the wrench is 
held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.

However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob on 
the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to shift 
it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd assume it 
is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be swung by a 
smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM spindle motor, 
rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac controller, but with 
Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of DC power, can be run 500 
revs faster than the OEM controller I took off could run it, and is full 
power reversible, running a G33.1 rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I 
write it to "peck" the bigger taps above #10 or 5mm of course.

So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or 
pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.  
Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20 
adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am presently using 
while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.  Those are very 
nice, but run the cost per tool up about $50/tool so I only have one 
adaptor and 3 collets (sp?).

Does anyone have any experience with this?  Or am I just a beggar, 
wishing for a free horse, and designing my own saddle? 

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 29 October 2015 at 15:28, Bruce Layne  wrote:
> I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my
> mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of
> Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders aren't
> pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy frame
> that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as soon as I
> get a Round Tuit.

If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html
(There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Bruce Layne]

tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
nice, but run the cost per tool up about
$50/tool so I only have one adapter and
3 collets


I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our 
Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack 
full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50 
each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but 
that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a lathe.

I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow 
boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.

www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633



This has got me to thinking of a tool
changer device since I am spending
about 1/2 of my time changing tools
& other preparatory stuffs.


You probably already know this, but the poor man's power drawbar is an 
impact wrench to turn the drawbar.  There are pneumatic versions with 
air cylinders to push a small butterfly impact driver down as it spins, 
but I'm an electrical engineer so I like electrical solutions.  :-)

It's hard to beat the lightweight 12V Porter Cable cordless impact 
driver from Lowe's.  It reminds me of the Heywood Banks song about the 
Garden Weasel (search YouTube) - it's half the effort and twice as quick!

I have an old beat up Harbor Freight cordless impact wrench that a 
friend gave me to use to make a power draw bar.  I was going to wire it 
so it used full voltage for reverse and half voltage for forward, so it 
would tighten enough to hold the tool in the spindle, but would always 
be able to loosen anything it tightened.  Sort of like those tanks that 
have the highest gears in reverse so they could get out of a bad 
situation faster than they got into it.

I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my 
mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of 
Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders aren't 
pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy frame 
that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as soon as I 
get a Round Tuit.

Good luck with your woodworking and have fun!





On 10/29/2015 10:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Greetings all;
>
> This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be
> changed 4 times per end of a board processed.
>
> This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am spending
> about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory stuffs.
>
> At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to see if
> the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the wrench is
> held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.
>
> However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob on
> the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to shift
> it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd assume it
> is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be swung by a
> smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM spindle motor,
> rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac controller, but with
> Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of DC power, can be run 500
> revs faster than the OEM controller I took off could run it, and is full
> power reversible, running a G33.1 rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I
> write it to "peck" the bigger taps above #10 or 5mm of course.
>
> So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or
> pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.
> Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20
> adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am presently using
> while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.  Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about $50/tool so I only have one
> adaptor and 3 collets (sp?).
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this?  Or am I just a beggar,
> wishing for a free horse, and designing my own saddle?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Jonathan Blissett]

You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
video here:

http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor

On 29 October 2015 at 16:49, John Kasunich  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> > tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> > nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> > $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> > 3 collets
> >
> >
> > I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our
> > Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack
> > full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50
> > each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but
> > that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a
> lathe.
> >
> > I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow
> > boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> >
> > www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633
>
> I bought ten of these.  They arrived faster than expected, and the
> quality seems very good.  One nuisance was that DHL wanted a
> signature, but I was able to leave a signed note on the door.
> I did quite a bit more than a minute of searching, this seems to be
> the best supplier.
>
> --
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Kasunich]

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> 3 collets
> 
> 
> I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from our 
> Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool rack 
> full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close to $50 
> each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an ATC, but 
> that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to add on a lathe.
> 
> I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow 
> boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
> 
> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

I bought ten of these.  They arrived faster than expected, and the 
quality seems very good.  One nuisance was that DHL wanted a
signature, but I was able to leave a signed note on the door.
I did quite a bit more than a minute of searching, this seems to be
the best supplier.

-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Bruce Layne]

Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I 
think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be your 
biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are missing the 
two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes and repeatable 
Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet holder, pull out 
the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have very slow tool 
changes and you need to reset the Z height each time.  When that's the 
case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you loosen the drawbar 
with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically actuated power 
drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20 collet holder, 
the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall problem.  ER20 
TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a lot... because 
they're worth it!



On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler. 
> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html 
> (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action) 

Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC 
conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my time 
in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your solution 
to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda guy, 
usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought about 
making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured SMC has 
forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about making an air 
cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The project makes a 
lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall integrated 
drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to keep that 
concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type of project 
again.

I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I 
need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What Would 
Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any shop project.



On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
> You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
> was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
> video here:
>
> http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor

That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I 
think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize 
there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!

Your signature line:
   Old router build log here 
.
 
New router build log here 
.
 
Lathe build log here 
.
   Electric motorbike project here 
.

You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a 
2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I also 
have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even though I 
already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe that's 
surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched my CNC 
projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just spent the 
last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine is a 2WD 2KW 
electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric motorcycle.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 30 October 2015 at 00:09, rayj  wrote:

> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was
> wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into
> place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be
> enough force to seat is securely.

For drilling, I imagine so, for the reasons you state. I would expect
it to pull out for milling. I have seen a single MT shank milling
cutter without a drawbar, but only one.

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[rayj]

Greetings,

My little 3 in 1 machine has a hollow quill for using a draw bar to pull 
the MT 3 mail holder into place.  I was wondering if anyone had used 
vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight 
enough for a little light milling.

Just kind of wondering out loud. If it's been tried and failed, I won't 
have to wonder any more! :>)

TIA

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/29/2015 03:14 PM, Bruce Layne wrote:
> Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I
> think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be your
> biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are missing the
> two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes and repeatable
> Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet holder, pull out
> the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have very slow tool
> changes and you need to reset the Z height each time.  When that's the
> case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you loosen the drawbar
> with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically actuated power
> drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20 collet holder,
> the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall problem.  ER20
> TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a lot... because
> they're worth it!
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>> If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.
>> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301-cnc.html
>> (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)
>
> Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC
> conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my time
> in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your solution
> to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda guy,
> usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought about
> making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured SMC has
> forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about making an air
> cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The project makes a
> lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall integrated
> drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to keep that
> concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type of project
> again.
>
> I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I
> need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What Would
> Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any shop project.
>
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
>> You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did and it
>> was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some pictures and a
>> video here:
>>
>> http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor
>
> That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I
> think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize
> there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!
>
> Your signature line:
> Old router build log here
> .
> New router build log here
> .
> Lathe build log here
> .
> Electric motorbike project here
> .
>
> You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a
> 2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I also
> have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even though I
> already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe that's
> surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched my CNC
> projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just spent the
> last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine is a 2WD 2KW
> electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric motorcycle.
>
>
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[andy pugh]

On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj  wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone had used
> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
> enough for a little light milling.

14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
are about 100x higher.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[rayj]

Thanks for the reply.

That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in 
place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was 
wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into 
place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be 
enough force to seat is securely.

Like I said, just wondering out loud.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 10/29/2015 06:27 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj  wrote:
>> I was wondering if anyone had used
>> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
>> enough for a little light milling.
>
> 14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
> 12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
> are about 100x higher.
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Jon Elson]

On 10/29/2015 07:09 PM, rayj wrote:
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.
MT3 is a "self holding taper".  So, if a clean, burr-free 
holder is driven into a clean, burr-free socket, it should 
resist normal machining forces with NO drawbar, vacuum or 
other tricks.  I doubt vacuum could provide the kind of 
impulse that was normally used to drive tools into the spindle.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gregg Eshelman]

On 10/29/2015 8:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool, or
> pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to do that.
> Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the tormach ER-20
> adaptor with a big Crescent wrench

How about switching to the Tormach R8 quick change collet and holders? 
They have standard holders for manual changes and ones with a groove for 
auto changers.

Many people have adapted 3/8" butterfly impact wrenches to mills for 
power drawbar conversions. I assume they don't run a lot of air pressure.

If I ever get my ProLight 2000 into regular use I'll get the Tormach R8 
stuff for it.


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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 11:28:30 Bruce Layne wrote:

> tormach ER-20 adaptor... Those are very
> nice, but run the cost per tool up about
> $50/tool so I only have one adapter and
> 3 collets
>
>
> I suggest you search eBay for the TTS compatible collet holders from
> our Chinese communist capitalist friends.  I have a 50 position tool
> rack full of those, and I'm cheap, so they must not be anywhere close
> to $50 each.  The quality is quite good.  There is no groove for an
> ATC, but that's not a big deal for me and it'd be an easy feature to
> add on a lathe.
>
> I found them for you.  :-)  $16 each in quantities of ten on the slow
> boat.  Maybe less if you search longer than the minute I spent.
>
> www.ebay.com/itm/161733955633

Nice, and the price is quite decent, but shipping at $60 is apparently 
his profit margin. If you listen carefully you can hear the gears going 
around in my card case. And the dice rolling in the background. :)  Now 
to find some ER-20 collets at a decent price.

Anything in the under $30/kit range is from 1065 steel, and could be done 
better in a harder alloy.  I think I would probably be better off buying 
3 more of the 3 packs from LMS, so I would have the ability to hold more 
than one 1/4" tool at a time.  Using 'Merican tools, I don't often need 
a metric collet anyway.

But then I'd need to design a soft bottomed catcher bucket since its 
virtually impossible to loosen the drawbar bolt, and catch the er-20 
adapter as it freely falls out. I have had it drop, point first, 
damaging both the point and the workpiece, 3 times now.

I did find some 1/4" stop collars, so I at least have a consistent 
stickout for as long as the tool lasts.

>
> This has got me to thinking of a tool
> changer device since I am spending
> about 1/2 of my time changing tools
> & other preparatory stuffs.
>
>
> You probably already know this, but the poor man's power drawbar is an
> impact wrench to turn the drawbar.  There are pneumatic versions with
> air cylinders to push a small butterfly impact driver down as it
> spins, but I'm an electrical engineer so I like electrical solutions. 
> :-)
>
> It's hard to beat the lightweight 12V Porter Cable cordless impact
> driver from Lowe's.  It reminds me of the Heywood Banks song about the
> Garden Weasel (search YouTube) - it's half the effort and twice as
> quick!
>
> I have an old beat up Harbor Freight cordless impact wrench that a
> friend gave me to use to make a power draw bar.  I was going to wire
> it so it used full voltage for reverse and half voltage for forward,
> so it would tighten enough to hold the tool in the spindle, but would
> always be able to loosen anything it tightened.  Sort of like those
> tanks that have the highest gears in reverse so they could get out of
> a bad situation faster than they got into it.
>
> I have all the parts to make the CNC controlled power drawbar for my
> mill, including a couple of large SMC air cylinders, a stack of
> Belleville washers to tension the drawbar when the air cylinders
> aren't pushing down on it, and a big pile of steel to build the beefy
> frame that mounts to the cast head of the milling machine... just as
> soon as I get a Round Tuit.
>
> Good luck with your woodworking and have fun!
>
> On 10/29/2015 10:22 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > This particular carving project uses 3 different tools which must be
> > changed 4 times per end of a board processed.
> >
> > This has got me to thinking of a tool changer device since I am
> > spending about 1/2 of my time changing tools & other preparatory
> > stuffs.
> >
> > At present, this thing has an R8 spindle, but I haven't tested to
> > see if the spindle motor has the muscle to run the draw bolt if the
> > wrench is held.  I'd assume so if the gear selection was in low.
> >
> > However, putting it in low isn't easily done by hand.  That big knob
> > on the side is big for a reason, which is to give us a good grip to
> > shift it with. It is, IMO, needlessly difficult to switch gears. I'd
> > assume it is easily replaced by a longer lever, which could then be
> > swung by a smaller motor to effect the gear change.  This is the OEM
> > spindle motor, rated at 1 HP when driven by the OEM SCR/Triac
> > controller, but with Jon's PWM servo driver with about 110 volts of
> > DC power, can be run 500 revs faster than the OEM controller I took
> > off could run it, and is full power reversible, running a G33.1
> > rigid tapping cycle very nicely. I write it to "peck" the bigger
> > taps above #10 or 5mm of course.
> >
> > So there is, for short duration efforts such as dropping the tool,
> > or pulling the next one back in, likely more than enough torque to
> > do that. Less torque needed there than in running the nut on the
> > tormach ER-20 adaptor with a big Crescent wrench which is what I am
> > presently using while the spindle is pin locked by the brake I made.
> >  Those are very nice, but run the cost per tool 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 16:14:56 Bruce Layne wrote:

> Gene:  The point I may have understated in my previous post is that I
> think getting a few more ER20 TTS compatible collet holders will be
> your biggest bang for the buck.  When you only have one, you are
> missing the two big advantages of the TTS system - quick tool changes
> and repeatable Z heights.  If you need to disassemble the ER20 collet
> holder, pull out the collet, change the tool and reassemble, you have
> very slow tool changes and you need to reset the Z height each time. 
> When that's the case (what a hassle!), it matters little whether you
> loosen the drawbar with a wrench, an impact wrench or a pneumatically
> actuated power drawbar.  Compared to mucking around with a single ER20
> collet holder, the drawbar is by far the easiest part of that overall
> problem.  ER20 TTS collet holders are like divorces - they cost a
> lot... because they're worth it!
>
The only divorce I ever got sure was worth it, even if it did cost me 
about $40k.  Turns out she had been playing games with the IRS, she 
didn't have that sort of money, so I was garnisheed for about 2 years.

As has been said, that was the screwing I got for the screwing I got. :(

Still trying to conjure up an automatic tool catcher since I don't have 
the magic spell (or a vitamin supplement) that will grow at least 1 more 
arm.  Them are as scarce as round tuits in these here parts. :(

But I do have repeatable Z heights now, I have stop collars on the tools 
in use ATM.  That has simplicated things a WHOLE bunch.

  
> On 10/29/2015 11:42 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > If you make your own cylinder it actually all gets a bit simpler.
> > http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical-mill-lathe-project-log/109301
> >-cnc.html (There is a link at the bottom to a video of it in action)
>
> Considering that I spend 99% of my time online, reading about CNC
> conversions and watching machining videos, and only about 1% of my
> time in the shop, it's a true tragedy that I didn't encounter your
> solution to my power drawbar problem sooner.  I'm a do-it-myself kinda
> guy, usually to a self destructive degree, so I naturally thought
> about making a custom air cylinder.  Sanity prevailed and I figured
> SMC has forgotten a hundred times more than I'll ever know about
> making an air cylinder, but I didn't take the concept far enough.  The
> project makes a lot of sense when the air cylinder part of the overall
> integrated drawbar mechanism.  Very nicely done, sir!  I'll try to
> keep that concept in my old brain in case I ever need to do this type
> of project again.
>
> I saw where 3D printers can now print a flexible rubbery material. I
> need to 3D print a rubber bracelet with an embossed "WWAPD?" (What
> Would Andy Pugh Do?) as a reminder to check first before I start any
> shop project.
>
> On 10/29/2015 01:18 PM, Jonathan Blissett wrote:
> > You can ask the seller to put the groove in the toolholders - I did
> > and it was still cheap. I've used them to convert an X3 mill. Some
> > pictures and a video here:
> >
> > http://www.mycncuk.com/threads/7656-X3-mill-with-rails-ATC-new-motor
>
> That's a very impressive X3 conversion.  A 16 position ATC?!?  Wow! I
> think you'll know you've finished that CNC conversion when you realize
> there is not a single piece of the X3 remaining!
>
> Your signature line:
>Old router build log here
> ld-logs/2288-1-7*0-74*0-4m-mill-router-building.html=U=IgiJUruTAq
>Op0QWP8IHYBA=0CAcQFjAA=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNHzK2eBjyDN
>kvNNpkDkbrSId58P1w>. New router build log here
> ong-machine.html>. Lathe build log here
> d-logs/4497-micro-lathe-zero-backlash*-conversion.html=U=hgiJUuS9
>N9TwhQfK0YCIDg=0CAcQFjAA=internal-uds-cse=AFQjCNHAN7QLXF
>2OU7rMv2VFcEqpE3Ccnw>. Electric motorbike project here
> .
>
> You may be my long lost twin.  I built a 2'X4' CNC router but have a
> 2'X2' CNC router to build.  It's a big pile of parts in my shop.  I
> also have a CNC mill conversion and a CNC lathe conversion (even
> though I already build a CNC mini lathe from a little Sherline lathe
> that's surprisingly capable for the small stuff).  I haven't touched
> my CNC projects all summer but I'm about to get back to them.  I just
> spent the last couple of days imagineering an electric bike, but mine
> is a 2WD 2KW electric bicycle, unlike your fabulous 50KW electric
> motorcycle.
>
>
> --
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 

Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[John Dammeyer]

Don't do it.  It's not safe.  The sideways forces created by milling plus
the downward pull from spiral bits can pull it out and fling it across the
room.  I built an entire Gingery Lathe using My Sears Drill press since I
could clamp the quill.  (it was a robust Delta Design).  And I had a friend
with a lathe and a long drill put in a hole through the center of the
spindle so I could attach a drawbar to the MT-3 tooling.
John Dammeyer

> -Original Message-
> From: rayj [mailto:raymo...@frontiernet.net]
> Sent: October-29-15 5:10 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] tool changers
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> That's what I was thinking, but some MT3 adapters are just rammed in
> place or tapped lightly with a hammer and function adequately.  I was
> wondering if the vacuum was applied and the adapter was brought into
> place so that the vacuum "snapped" it into position if that would be
> enough force to seat is securely.
> 
> Like I said, just wondering out loud.
> 
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
> 
> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty,
> understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system.
> And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness,
> egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men
> admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.
> -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)
> 
> On 10/29/2015 06:27 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 29 October 2015 at 23:20, rayj <raymo...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
> >> I was wondering if anyone had used
> >> vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be tight
> >> enough for a little light milling.
> >
> > 14.5 psi on an area of 0.88 square inches.
> > 12.75 lbf. I don't think that would be enough. Typical drawbar pulls
> > are about 100x higher.
> >
> >
> 
>

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Re: [Emc-users] tool changers

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 29 October 2015 19:20:13 rayj wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> My little 3 in 1 machine has a hollow quill for using a draw bar to
> pull the MT 3 mail holder into place.  I was wondering if anyone had
> used vacuum to snap the holder into place, and if it is likely to be
> tight enough for a little light milling.
>
> Just kind of wondering out loud. If it's been tried and failed, I
> won't have to wonder any more! :>)
>
> TIA
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN

Vacuum, likely nowhere near enough unless the piston has many square 
inches of surface to pull on.  The max differential pressure is just 
over 14 lbs per square inch.  My toy mill has MT-3 collets for tool 
holders, and I have to get fairly serious on a 14mm wrench to pull it 
tight enough the tool won't walk, usually out. :(

Air pressure, pushing on the underside of the piston would allow a 
smaller piston, but with MT-3, would still need a ton+ of push, and 3 or 
4 tons  to press down and eject.  Hell on spindle bearings, but I've 
been ejecting MT-3 collets with a 24 oz hammer applied hard enough its 
peening the top of the bolt and I've had to grind that "upset" back off 
the top of the hex (or square, I have two bolts, one Metric & 
one 'Merican, to make the socket fit about 4 times now.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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