Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
/I honestly am not qualified to parse the linguistics of this. I will note that the definitions I used, never talked about electrons in regard to the electrodes; it talks about cation and anions. Not the same thing. THe definitions of cathode and anode are related to cations and anions - electrochemical terms../ I disagree. I think cations and anions get their names from the electrodes they are attracted toward when a cell is discharging. /In the external circuit electrons are moving, between the electrodes it is ions./ Agree. That is what I said. /Chemically there is a charge imbalance that is created or relieved by electrons at the terminals of the conductors. When there is no imbalance the lithium ions reside in the positive electrodes, intercalated in the the lithium metal oxide (or phosphate with LFP), this is a stable state even when the terminals are connected./ The lithium is not charged, they are neutral atoms intercalated in the lattice. /If you create an imbalance, in other words a potential difference, at the terminals the ions will be attracted to and intercalate in the graphite negative electrode./ Depends on the polarity of the applied potential, but I assume you meant graphite negative relative to the electrode with the lithium compound. I think there is nothing more to be gained here. We both have some understanding of how the cells work. The confusion over anode/cathode, positive/negative comes from whether there is an external power source connected to the cell or not, or as you stated it, whether the cell is consuming energy or supplying energy. That's what I thought I explained in the previous post. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4674000.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Actually, Dahn has been doing battery research since the 1970's. You must have misunderstood something. So, given that Dahn never says anode or cathode, ever. The Wiki definition is ambiguous at best - is a battery a power producer or consumer? I am not going to refer to the side that is lithiated during charging as anything but an electrode. On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 11:11 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I was just pointing out that the anode, to which lithium ions diffuse during charging, is graphite in the cells we use such as CALB, as well as in Leaf and Volt cells. Dahn readily admits he is new to battery research and just coming up to speed. Nice work though. It is also known that coatings on the anode can reduce deposition of lithium carbonate on the anode due to slight overcharging. Lithium also deposits out of solution if the cell is taken below about 1 V. Similar effect to overcharge, increases cell resistance, reduces capacity. Of course severe over charge or discharge destroys the cell. I don't know much about the materials science and chemistry of lithium cells, but I think researchers in the area know quite a lot. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673993.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150227/8c0de1df/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I was just pointing out that the anode, to which lithium ions diffuse during charging, is graphite in the cells we use such as CALB, as well as in Leaf and Volt cells. Dahn readily admits he is new to battery research and just coming up to speed. Nice work though. It is also known that coatings on the anode can reduce deposition of lithium carbonate on the anode due to slight overcharging. Lithium also deposits out of solution if the cell is taken below about 1 V. Similar effect to overcharge, increases cell resistance, reduces capacity. Of course severe over charge or discharge destroys the cell. I don't know much about the materials science and chemistry of lithium cells, but I think researchers in the area know quite a lot. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673993.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I honestly am not qualified to parse the linguistics of this. I will note that the definitions I used, never talked about electrons in regard to the electrodes; it talks about cation and anions. Not the same thing. THe definitions of cathode and anode are related to cations and anions - electrochemical terms.. In the external circuit electrons are moving, between the electrodes it is ions. Chemically there is a charge imbalance that is created or relieved by electrons at the terminals of the conductors. When there is no imbalance the lithium ions reside in the positive electrodes, intercalated in the the lithium metal oxide (or phosphate with LFP), this is a stable state even when the terminals are connected. If you create an imbalance, in other words a potential difference, at the terminals the ions will be attracted to and intercalate in the graphite negative electrode. This is stable if you do not put a connection between the terminals. At Dalhousie they have been working with lithium cells for decades. Maybe he was talking about with the high precision coulometry they developed - that is fairly new work. Aaron Smith's first paper on the subject was in 2010. On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 6:05 PM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That is how I’ve seen them referred to in articles I read. In a zinc – copper voltaic cell electrons are produced by oxidation of zinc at the /anode/ which is considered to be the /negative/ electrode since it pushes electrons into the external circuit. The electrons flow through the external circuit to the /positive/ copper /cathode/ where they reduce Cu^+2 ions in solution to copper atoms. Ref: Chemical Principles, Masterton Slowinski. In this case the anode is negative, cathode is positive. This is equivalent to the discharge of lithium-based cells since no external power is applied between the electrodes. In this case the lithium atoms in the /graphite/ lose an electron and flow through the electrolyte to the LiFePO4 electrode, and the electrons flow through the external circuit to the LiFePO4 electrode. Using the above convention, the /graphite/ would be considered the /negative/ electrode and /anode/. Here is where the confusion enters: During *charging* the intercalated lithium atoms in the/ LiFePO4/ cathode lose an electron and flow through the electrolyte to the graphite and the electrons flow to the graphite through the external circuit. So by the above convention (pushing electrons) the LiFePO4 electrode would in this case be the negative electrode, the opposite of when discharging. Also, in a DC glow discharge the /negative/ electrode is called the /cathode/. It collects positive ion (cation) current from the plasma and electron current from the external circuit. The /positive/ electrode is called the /anode/ and collects electron current from the plasma and “pushes” electrons into the external circuit. Ref: Gaseous Electronics, Hirsch Oskam. Note that external power must be supplied to sustain the plasma, so this is equivalent to the *charging* half-cycle of a LiFePO4 cell where the LiFePO4 electrode acts as the anode pushing electrons into the external circuit. So it depends on whether there is an external power source applied (charging, in the case of batteries). I think generally the literature uses the discharging terminology. Batteries are definitely consumers of energy since they dissipate energy during both charge and discharge, so you always get less energy out than you put in. I thought Dahn said they had just begun studying batteries, but guess I was wrong. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673996.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150227/a481c785/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
That is how I’ve seen them referred to in articles I read. In a zinc – copper voltaic cell electrons are produced by oxidation of zinc at the /anode/ which is considered to be the /negative/ electrode since it pushes electrons into the external circuit. The electrons flow through the external circuit to the /positive/ copper /cathode/ where they reduce Cu^+2 ions in solution to copper atoms. Ref: Chemical Principles, Masterton Slowinski. In this case the anode is negative, cathode is positive. This is equivalent to the discharge of lithium-based cells since no external power is applied between the electrodes. In this case the lithium atoms in the /graphite/ lose an electron and flow through the electrolyte to the LiFePO4 electrode, and the electrons flow through the external circuit to the LiFePO4 electrode. Using the above convention, the /graphite/ would be considered the /negative/ electrode and /anode/. Here is where the confusion enters: During *charging* the intercalated lithium atoms in the/ LiFePO4/ cathode lose an electron and flow through the electrolyte to the graphite and the electrons flow to the graphite through the external circuit. So by the above convention (pushing electrons) the LiFePO4 electrode would in this case be the negative electrode, the opposite of when discharging. Also, in a DC glow discharge the /negative/ electrode is called the /cathode/. It collects positive ion (cation) current from the plasma and electron current from the external circuit. The /positive/ electrode is called the /anode/ and collects electron current from the plasma and “pushes” electrons into the external circuit. Ref: Gaseous Electronics, Hirsch Oskam. Note that external power must be supplied to sustain the plasma, so this is equivalent to the *charging* half-cycle of a LiFePO4 cell where the LiFePO4 electrode acts as the anode pushing electrons into the external circuit. So it depends on whether there is an external power source applied (charging, in the case of batteries). I think generally the literature uses the discharging terminology. Batteries are definitely consumers of energy since they dissipate energy during both charge and discharge, so you always get less energy out than you put in. I thought Dahn said they had just begun studying batteries, but guess I was wrong. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673996.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
The anode is graphite, cathode is LiFePO4 for LFP cells. I just heat mine to 65F while the car is parked at home similar to Rick. Have almost the same range in winter as summer with the cabin heater off as a result. This is the sixth winter for the car. I think there is quite a lot known about lithium chemistries and main effects for cycle life, but not by diy ev'ers. Additives to the electrolyte can make a big difference to cell performance. See e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk Note that the company wouldn't tell him what the additives were. Same with any tech industry, the insiders know much more than outsiders like us know. Don't infer they are ignorant just because we are. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673983.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
tomw, I got this from WIKI on Cathode. Cathode polarity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_polarity with respect to the anode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anode can be positive or negative; it depends on how the device operates. Although positively charged cations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion always move towards the cathode (hence their name) and negatively charged anions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion move away from it, cathode polarity depends on the device type, and can even vary according to the operating mode. In a device which consumes power, the cathode is negative, and in a device which provides power, the cathode is positive:` http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode I always find this +/- anode/cathode anion/cation business annoying. Does a battery consume power when it is charging or does it provide power when it is discharging? I can see why Dahn always talks about the positive and negative electrodes and never says anode or cathode. I think I had better adopt that nomenclature myself. If you want to check out the video around the 12 minute mark, you will see the positive electrode on the left in his diagram. Dahn always talks about the positive electrode (the LiFePO4 side) delithiating and becoming reactive during charging with the ions moving to the GRAPHITE negative electrode. Is that better for you? On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 10:04 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The anode is graphite, cathode is LiFePO4 for LFP cells. I just heat mine to 65F while the car is parked at home similar to Rick. Have almost the same range in winter as summer with the cabin heater off as a result. This is the sixth winter for the car. I think there is quite a lot known about lithium chemistries and main effects for cycle life, but not by diy ev'ers. Additives to the electrolyte can make a big difference to cell performance. See e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qi03QawZEk Note that the company wouldn't tell him what the additives were. Same with any tech industry, the insiders know much more than outsiders like us know. Don't infer they are ignorant just because we are. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673983.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150226/5fd63402/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
You can charge at that very low temperature, but at a very low rate according the specifications of my Li Ion Graphite cells. My first EV came with two batteries, a 40 cell and a 50 cell 300 ah lead cobalt battery that had a 1/4 inch thick aluminum case that was 20 inches high in this high country in Montana, the lowest temperature my EV was at -41 F at work at a elevation of 3600 ft at work. I just kept a very low maintainer charge for about 8 hours. I was always the first one out of the parking lot driving through a foot of snow while all the other ICE's had trouble starting. I also added a electric battery blanket which is normally use for 12 and 24 volt batteries. You can get these blankets at any auto part store. The one I use was made by KAT's which was about 12 inches wide and 60 inches long for the larger batteries. Wrap two blankets around each battery. The wattage rating was about 80 watts for the smaller batteries and 160 watts for the larger battery. It was recommended not to block the bottom of the battery, because the battery containers would frost up from any heat the batteries give off which cause the outside surfaces to condensate. The grommet holes in the bottom of the heater blanket allows the water to flow out. Roland - Original Message - From: Danpatgal via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list wrote An example is Powerstream Batteries lt;http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htmgt; show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. I just looked at that, and I read the charge temperature range to be from 0 C to 40 C. Am I reading that wrong. I just checked the CALB (LiFePO4) specifications I have, and they state charging is allowed from 0 C to 45 C. Spring can't come soon enough. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673967.htmlhttp://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673967.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/b6576b34/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list wrote An example is Powerstream Batteries lt;http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htmgt; show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. I just looked at that, and I read the charge temperature range to be from 0 C to 40 C. Am I reading that wrong. I just checked the CALB (LiFePO4) specifications I have, and they state charging is allowed from 0 C to 45 C. Spring can't come soon enough. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673967.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
On 02/25/2015 01:18 PM, Danpatgal via EV wrote: Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list wrote An example is Powerstream Batteries lt;http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htmgt; show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. I just looked at that, and I read the charge temperature range to be from 0 C to 40 C. Am I reading that wrong. I just checked the CALB (LiFePO4) specifications I have, and they state charging is allowed from 0 C to 45 C. Spring can't come soon enough. You're reading it correctly: 0C to 40C for charge. -10C to 60C for discharge. It is confusingly written, though. The CALB CAs are, as you state 0C to 45C for charge, -20C to 55C for discharge.That extra -20C is why I chose to only heat my batteries when the truck is plugged in. I'm not particularly concerned about them getting cold during the day while I'm parked at work. --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Bill, I think the issue is too fast a charge, for the temperature, and cell composition. Which is to say, for a given cell, we have little information worth paying attention to, that would be informative. I think the whole industry suffers from a lack of understanding due to inadequate testing methods. Then you throw in unwary marketing people, who may paste the same graph, table or specification into a webpage or brochure, imagining that it is simple - the same electrode composition must produce the same performance and limitations. When we say LiFePO4 we are only talking about the anode. We have a graphite cathode, but how it is formed makes a difference. The electrolyte package which we are never privy to is unknown and may as important as all the stuff we know about.. I do recall a brief discussion of this last year on this list where it came up. I quoted a professor here in the NCSU Freedm Center (where they have luminaries like the guy the inverted the IGBT, and have worked there on prototype lithium cells), he told me he didn't know anything about lithium plating. Was he talking about a specific chemistry? I didn't know enough then to question him. I have found literature detailing the process of plating so he either didn't know, wasn't talking, or meant something I wasn't expecting. I have a few papers on this which I will send you. They seem to support the idea that plating happens. Mike On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide? I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well. I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.) I think that cold weather effect may be restricted to lithium-ion metal oxide cells. That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it. I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells, but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other. Bill Dube' snip -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/12b3e298/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Well, to be exact all Lithium Ion batteries die for one reason. Loss of electrolyte. Plating is just a way to loose electrolyte. Without moving Li Ions the battery can't work. The Ions that move are in the electrolyte. From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Bill, I think the issue is too fast a charge, for the temperature, and cell composition. Which is to say, for a given cell, we have little information worth paying attention to, that would be informative. I think the whole industry suffers from a lack of understanding due to inadequate testing methods. Then you throw in unwary marketing people, who may paste the same graph, table or specification into a webpage or brochure, imagining that it is simple - the same electrode composition must produce the same performance and limitations. When we say LiFePO4 we are only talking about the anode. We have a graphite cathode, but how it is formed makes a difference. The electrolyte package which we are never privy to is unknown and may as important as all the stuff we know about.. I do recall a brief discussion of this last year on this list where it came up. I quoted a professor here in the NCSU Freedm Center (where they have luminaries like the guy the inverted the IGBT, and have worked there on prototype lithium cells), he told me he didn't know anything about lithium plating. Was he talking about a specific chemistry? I didn't know enough then to question him. I have found literature detailing the process of plating so he either didn't know, wasn't talking, or meant something I wasn't expecting. I have a few papers on this which I will send you. They seem to support the idea that plating happens. Mike On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide? I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well. I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.) I think that cold weather effect may be restricted to lithium-ion metal oxide cells. That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it. I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells, but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other. Bill Dube' snip -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/12b3e298/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/f84b63d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Bill wrote: I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. And that is the right answer. Ask your cell manufacturer for the specifications. Joggling with the electrolyte mixtures is what people do so you really cannot say anything generic. For sure it's better for the cell to have it in the optimal temperature range which usually is about 25C +/-5C. It's not that big deal to give the battery box a light layer of insulation. Ventilation and heating help more and they are not too hard to make either. -Jukka http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about 2015-02-24 7:50 GMT+02:00 Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org: Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide? I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well. I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.) I think that cold weather effect may be restricted to lithium-ion metal oxide cells. That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it. I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells, but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other. Bill Dube' On 2/23/2015 5:19 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: Discharging pulls lithium off of the cathode side SEI (solid electrolyte interface) if it has been plated there, but according to the electrochemists other bad stuff goes on so the capacity lost to plating the cathode is not reversible even if the plating itself is reversible. I wish I understood this better, but the science of it may be uncertain beyond knowing that it is bad. So when you charge, the ions move towards the cathode, and when it is cold the motion into the cathode is too slow and the lithium piles up on the SEI as a metallic lithium - it is plated. When you discharge the metallic lithium diffuses into the electrolyte and the motion of ions is towards the anode. I am not aware that discharging is a problem, I have seen nothing in the literature about it; and high currents will generate heat right where the action is. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That was one of my big concerns when I built my truck so I tried to fix it from the beginning. I put 1 of foam insulation in all my battery boxes. I installed battery warmers under the batteries. I used 35 watt Farnum heaters I got from KTA-EV. And I built a controller to turn the heaters on below 15C and to disable charging below 3C. All of that runs only when the truck is plugged in. I've been leaving the truck plugged in at home and it's keeping the batteries at 15C (60F) despite temps to -20C. CALB allows the cells to be discharged at a much lower temperature than charging so I'm less worried about the cells cooling off with the truck unplugged at work. That said, the insulation really helps slow down that process. I've found that on a 20F day the cells have dropped to about 45F after 8 hours at work. The other advantage to the cells being warmer, of course, is much better performance. My understanding is that temperature of the anode is the critical piece. I don't know if your BMS is measuring that or simply the air above the cell. --Rick On 02/20/2015 03:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know.
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate. Does anyone know? Around C/10? Or lower? -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002 | | | | | | | | | | | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... | | | | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Danpatgal danpat...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I have seen some of the research on this - if you charge slowly you can avoid any plating. The issue is the electrolyte becomes vicious and the ions pile up on the SEI outside the cathode. What I saw said the problem was at -20C (-4F). But, I am not sure exactly what the cell construction was, and particularly the electrolyte composition. There are umpteen electrolyte recipes and they make a difference. One thin they do is use lower boiling point electrolytes to improve cold performance. If the cell is for a human implant you don't have to worry about it. Lot's of variety. I think you should heat the pack, and charge as slowly as you can just to be sure. Plating is really bad. Mike On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150220/5c77c4ea/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150223/b83daa71/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Christopher, This is going to be different for every anode chemistry and electrolyte package. Now that reliable shorter time interval testing is possible, we may start to see better information like you are asking for. I think you are stuck with being careful and not really knowing. Heat your pack when charging below freezing - certainly, absolutely, below 0°F. YMMV. I would guess C/10 might be OK, based on nothing at all. Start pushing the people you buy cells from to get good testing done - or else you will buy from someone who does do it. That is the only way it happens. Mike On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate. Does anyone know? Around C/10? Or lower? -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002 | | | | | | | | | | | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... | | | | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150223/297a8800/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
This is from 2006 and yes they may have improved the electrolyte but it's best to foillow your battery manufacturers guidelines on this. The effect of temperature on the cell voltage and electrode potentials during charging at 5mA is similar to charging at high currents, lithium plating was observed in all the cases and it was aggravated by decreasing the temperature. In particular, the CC step vanishes as the temperature drops to −20 ◦C, where lithium plating occurs as soon as the charging starts and accompanies the whole charging period. This observation may be associated with these two factors: (1) graphite suffers from a high over-potential due to the decrease in ionic conductivity of electrolyte and the slowdown in kinetics of Li+ ion intercalation into graphite and (2) the plated lithium cannot fully re-intercalate into graphite before the end of charging. As the temperature is at 0 ◦C or above 0◦C, the charging time is dominated by the CC time, and the charging capacities achieve more than 31 mAh (97% versus the full capacity of 32 mAh). As the temperature drops to−10 ◦C, the total charging time remains almost unchanged, whereas the portion of the CV time is significantly increased. With respect to the increase of CV time, lithium plating is aggravated and the charging capacity accordingly is decreased from the full capacity (32 mAh) to 26 mAh. These results suggest that Li-ion batteries should not be charged below 0 ◦C. Study of the charging process of a LiCoO2-based Li-ion battery S.S. Zhang ∗, K. Xu, T.R. Jow U.S. Army Research Laboratory, AMSRD-ARL-SE-DC, Adelphi, MD 20783-1197, USA Received 30 January 2006; received in revised form 14 February 2006; accepted 15 February 2006 Available online 18 April 2006 From: Christopher Darilek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate. Does anyone know? Around C/10? Or lower? -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002 | | | | | | | | | | | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... | | | | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Danpatgal danpat...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I have seen some of the research on this - if you charge slowly you can avoid any plating. The issue is the electrolyte becomes vicious and the ions pile up on the SEI outside the cathode. What I saw said the problem was at -20C (-4F). But, I am not sure exactly what the cell construction was, and particularly the electrolyte composition. There are umpteen electrolyte recipes and they make a difference. One thin they do is use lower boiling point electrolytes to improve cold performance. If the cell is for a human implant you don't have to worry about it. Lot's of variety. I think you should heat the pack, and charge as slowly as you can just to be sure. Plating is really bad. Mike On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Lots of great info on this thread! I was actually revisiting the literature on this recently myself. Although my 914 is garaged for the winter, it happens to be at home this year (with its transmission in pieces), and I wanted to top off the battery in case we lost power in all the crazy weather we've had up here in the Northeast -- I figured it could probably run my fireplace insert for several days. Ultimately, I decided it wasn't worth the risk. I would avoid charging below 5 degrees C if at all possible (to account for measurement error, etc), and if you must charge, do so at very low rates (C/20) and stay away from 100% SoC. It is really hard to find good literature on exactly what's tolerable for existing technology -- most seems to be examining novel electrolyte formulations; generally, I gather that some charge acceptance is possible below 0, but it's very limited, and it gets worse as the cell approaches full. If you have an ICE, suck it up burn some gas when the weather is this nasty. If you must drive your EV all winter, consider battery heaters or a space heater in your garage. I think the jury is out on whether or not lithium plating also presents a safety issue, but I for one don't want to take any chances. I've heard rumors of A123's having good low-temperature charge performance, but I wouldn't assume that extends to CALB -- it may have more to do with the nanoparticles and ridiculous rate capability than the electrolyte or chemistry. While we're at it, if you're even at 5 degrees, you should be limiting your charge rates. Ion mobility is not a step function! Lithium plating happens when you apply more charge current than the cell can accept; if the cell, or even a localized portion of the cell, is saturated, its voltage rises and lithium is deposited on the anode. The same thing would happen even at 25C if your charge rate were high enough. For what it's worth, my Tesla is extremely stingy about low-temperature charging; it won't apply any charge current until it has warmed the battery and it starts limiting charge and regen currents at temps as high as ~50F (10C). Given their close relationship with Panasonic and the effort they've put into maximizing both battery life and usability, I have to imagine that if charging below freezing could be done safely they'd be doing it. Maybe someone ambitious and willing to burn some cash could try some experiments for us. Lithium plating leaves a discernible voltage signature in the cell's discharge curve, in which the voltage during the first portion of the curve is inflated, then falls back to normal partway through the cycle. Buying several CALB cells, instrumenting them with good equipment, and testing them for several cycles each at various temperatures/charge rates would probably be sufficient to determine where the threshold of plating lies; then a little conservative extrapolation will give us a safe operating area. Not really an option for me even if I had the money, since my cells are ThunderSky and can't be bought anymore. Example voltage curve http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/158/4/A379/F13.large.jpg (the full article is paywalled but google takes you to the image). -Ben On Feb 23, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Christopher, This is going to be different for every anode chemistry and electrolyte package. Now that reliable shorter time interval testing is possible, we may start to see better information like you are asking for. I think you are stuck with being careful and not really knowing. Heat your pack when charging below freezing - certainly, absolutely, below 0°F. YMMV. I would guess C/10 might be OK, based on nothing at all. Start pushing the people you buy cells from to get good testing done - or else you will buy from someone who does do it. That is the only way it happens. Mike On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Christopher Darilek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate. Does anyone know? Around C/10? Or lower? -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002 | | | | | | | | | | | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... | | | | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide? I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well. I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.) I think that cold weather effect may be restricted to lithium-ion metal oxide cells. That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it. I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells, but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other. Bill Dube' On 2/23/2015 5:19 PM, Michael Ross via EV wrote: Discharging pulls lithium off of the cathode side SEI (solid electrolyte interface) if it has been plated there, but according to the electrochemists other bad stuff goes on so the capacity lost to plating the cathode is not reversible even if the plating itself is reversible. I wish I understood this better, but the science of it may be uncertain beyond knowing that it is bad. So when you charge, the ions move towards the cathode, and when it is cold the motion into the cathode is too slow and the lithium piles up on the SEI as a metallic lithium - it is plated. When you discharge the metallic lithium diffuses into the electrolyte and the motion of ions is towards the anode. I am not aware that discharging is a problem, I have seen nothing in the literature about it; and high currents will generate heat right where the action is. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That was one of my big concerns when I built my truck so I tried to fix it from the beginning. I put 1 of foam insulation in all my battery boxes. I installed battery warmers under the batteries. I used 35 watt Farnum heaters I got from KTA-EV. And I built a controller to turn the heaters on below 15C and to disable charging below 3C. All of that runs only when the truck is plugged in. I've been leaving the truck plugged in at home and it's keeping the batteries at 15C (60F) despite temps to -20C. CALB allows the cells to be discharged at a much lower temperature than charging so I'm less worried about the cells cooling off with the truck unplugged at work. That said, the insulation really helps slow down that process. I've found that on a 20F day the cells have dropped to about 45F after 8 hours at work. The other advantage to the cells being warmer, of course, is much better performance. My understanding is that temperature of the anode is the critical piece. I don't know if your BMS is measuring that or simply the air above the cell. --Rick On 02/20/2015 03:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150223/6652c485/attachment.htm
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Discharging pulls lithium off of the cathode side SEI (solid electrolyte interface) if it has been plated there, but according to the electrochemists other bad stuff goes on so the capacity lost to plating the cathode is not reversible even if the plating itself is reversible. I wish I understood this better, but the science of it may be uncertain beyond knowing that it is bad. So when you charge, the ions move towards the cathode, and when it is cold the motion into the cathode is too slow and the lithium piles up on the SEI as a metallic lithium - it is plated. When you discharge the metallic lithium diffuses into the electrolyte and the motion of ions is towards the anode. I am not aware that discharging is a problem, I have seen nothing in the literature about it; and high currents will generate heat right where the action is. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That was one of my big concerns when I built my truck so I tried to fix it from the beginning. I put 1 of foam insulation in all my battery boxes. I installed battery warmers under the batteries. I used 35 watt Farnum heaters I got from KTA-EV. And I built a controller to turn the heaters on below 15C and to disable charging below 3C. All of that runs only when the truck is plugged in. I've been leaving the truck plugged in at home and it's keeping the batteries at 15C (60F) despite temps to -20C. CALB allows the cells to be discharged at a much lower temperature than charging so I'm less worried about the cells cooling off with the truck unplugged at work. That said, the insulation really helps slow down that process. I've found that on a 20F day the cells have dropped to about 45F after 8 hours at work. The other advantage to the cells being warmer, of course, is much better performance. My understanding is that temperature of the anode is the critical piece. I don't know if your BMS is measuring that or simply the air above the cell. --Rick On 02/20/2015 03:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150223/52534a0f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
This is a sobering thread. For all the conviction I hear that lithium is the only way forward, winter is when it's clear that NiMH and NiCd - maybe even lead - batteries are still far from obsolete. I know, that's why battery thermal management exists, but still - if you can't charge your EV's battery when it's below freezing temperature - below FREEZING, not below zero F - that's kind of unsettling. In a usability sense, maybe lithium batteries aren't so different from Diesel fuel, which tends to turn to gel in extremely cold weather. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Dave, You can charge when it is cold, you just can't do it as fast. Or you have to put some heat to the pack - which apparently is not a new idea to many. The typical routine - come from work, hook it up so it is ready in the AM, is likely to be slow enough. But, we now know that we don't know any of this exactly - it is dependent on the type of Li ion cells and the electrolyte package in them. The only way that is known well, is using the high precision coulometry testing methods, and that is pretty new and not wide spread knowledge. You can get a taste of this from the video I have linked to (although he never discusses cold charging at all). It is obvious that Tesla can make this work. If some DIY EV people wanted to pool resources and get testing done, then Novonix could help sort this out, or point in the direction of people with the new life testing equipment. Until that happens, we will be dependent on suppliers to do it, believing - blindly it seems - their specifications, or anecdotal evidence. You can read the papers that have been published, but research seems to address different problems than what concerns the DIY EV'er. You will have to intuit from tests of other cells what to do with your own - and you probably don't really know what your own cells are made from. One of the things in Dr. Dahn's video is a hint at how important the electrolyte package is. Just small amount of an additive can make a hude difference in cell life under different conditions. NiMH and NiCAD have their own issues. On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 10:48 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This is a sobering thread. For all the conviction I hear that lithium is the only way forward, winter is when it's clear that NiMH and NiCd - maybe even lead - batteries are still far from obsolete. I know, that's why battery thermal management exists, but still - if you can't charge your EV's battery when it's below freezing temperature - below FREEZING, not below zero F - that's kind of unsettling. In a usability sense, maybe lithium batteries aren't so different from Diesel fuel, which tends to turn to gel in extremely cold weather. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150224/2384af62/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Put a mains electric blanket under them (ideally separated by a thin sheet of ply or aluminium) and put it on a timer. Cheap easy. If you can work some insulation into the mix, so much the better - the foil bubble wrap stuff is very space efficient. MW On 20 Feb 2015, at 20:25, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Since you are in your garage, put a couple incandescent light bulbs in the battery compartment to heat it up overnight. Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Danpatgal via EV Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:26 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion- list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences- tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I use a Lasko 200 watt all plastic heater that I got from either ACE Hardware or Wal Mart. My Li Ion modules are space 1/4 inch apart and each bank of modules are space 2.5 inches from the battery box walls and 5 inches from each bank of modules in my insulated battery box like streets and avenues. The modules are place on a steel galvanize plate on a 1/2 thick insulated fiber board. The heater with a built in fan is place on the outside perimeter of the modules and between the battery box wall. The heater blows heat around the perimeter and then returns back to the fan. About 30 minutes before I leave, with the outside ambient air temperature of 30 F degrees, this heater will heat up the batteries to as high as 80F. I also have a 600 watt cab heater that can heat up the passenger apartment to 80F in with 30 minutes. Roland - Original Message - From: Danpatgal via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.htmlhttp://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150220/b30231ab/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I have seen some of the research on this - if you charge slowly you can avoid any plating. The issue is the electrolyte becomes vicious and the ions pile up on the SEI outside the cathode. What I saw said the problem was at -20C (-4F). But, I am not sure exactly what the cell construction was, and particularly the electrolyte composition. There are umpteen electrolyte recipes and they make a difference. One thin they do is use lower boiling point electrolytes to improve cold performance. If the cell is for a human implant you don't have to worry about it. Lot's of variety. I think you should heat the pack, and charge as slowly as you can just to be sure. Plating is really bad. Mike On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150220/5c77c4ea/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
/In a properly designed EV, cold worries shouldn't be a big deal. The EV's battery should have thermal management, maybe even a heater for extremely cold weather operation./ How would you manage temperature without heating in winter? As you say, it is easy to add heating to battery packs, and I would add relatively inexpensive compared to other expenses in converting a car, so I've been surprised by how many don't bother. With heating you don't notice much difference in winter/summer performance, mainly the effect of increased friction in the drive train in the cold. Battery sag is about the same. I keep the batteries heated to 65F when parked at home, and with 1/2 insulation and their heat capacity they will remain above 50F if parked outside for several hours in temp's in the low 20's. It adds at most a few hundred dollars to a $10k to $20k project, and is much easier than trying to control battery temperature in summer. Thicker insulation is used in colder climes like Canada. The lithium batteries don't give off much heat so the insulation has some, but not a big effect on their temperature in summer. They usually remain less than 15F above ambient after a 30 minute drive. With increasing heat waves cooling will become an issue. Driving longer distances with fast charging will also make it an issue in summer. That will be much more difficult to address than just adding heating for winter, since I don't think air cooling will be sufficient. I've never not driven my ev in winter because it was too cold, even at around zero F. I have skipped driving it longer distances in summer temps over 100F. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4667719.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Blue SE or Gray CA cells? I think the CA's are a substantial improvement. Keegan at the US CALB warehouse is fairly responsive. Or if you bought them from one of the US resellers I'd hope they would go to bat for you. Back on topic, I am putting mine in insulated boxes with heaters in them. Temperature controllers will turn the heat on if the cells are below 40F and disable the charger until the batteries are warmed up to at least 45F. The design right now calls for all of that to be powered by shore power. I'll be monitoring the temperature to see how they fare while parked. --Rick On 01/28/2014 05:28 PM, Cruisin wrote: If the cold isn't enough to worry when using the CALB 180ah cells, early failure is substantial with the CALB cells. I have 6 customers using 180's and all have had failures of at least one cell in the first two years. All use a BMS and a programmed Elcon, so I know the systems are designed right. About half died while driving, BMS alerted and they shut it down. The others started change in resistance values making it difficult to get a complete charge, or early discharge alarm from the BMS. One died 1 day after a one year warranty. No replacement even though CALB was told of a possible problem early on. I don't want to alarm anybody, and I am sure some forum junkie will jump in a say he has been using the cells forever without a problem. Probably some have, but my experience is that most will have a early failure. Recommendation, carry sufficient tools and HV and BMS cables to be able to isolate the cell should experience this problem. Otherwise, you will be stuck somewhere where you don't want to be. Been there and done. By the way, don't expect CALB to do anything, even during a so called warranty period. Support and service ended when you put them in your donor. I hope I didn't hijack this thread, just wanted to pass on what I think is a troublesome problem. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Dan, I'm using lead acid golf car batteries but my regime for temperature control might be helpful information anyway. The battery box side walls are insulated with two 1/2 layers of standard foil faced isocyanurate foam building insulation and I use slabs of polyurethane foam two inches thick above and below the batteries. In winter weather the charge and discharge cycles (daily at work and at home) raise the temp gradually throughout the week. It sits in an unheated garage all weekend and will start out the week in winter usually in the 50F range and hit the low 90F area by Friday, then cools back down over the weekend. In the spring I remove the top foam slab. As the weather warms I may prop the box lid open slightly while charging. In the hottest parts of the summer, I prop the lids up with running muffin fans to ventilate while charging. I'm in New England so winter temps will occasionally get to 0F but it rarely gets below freezing in the attached garage space. Fans in summer keep the battery temps below 100F. I'm considering changing over to CALB cells also so thanks for starting this thread. Lee Hart's resistive wire (electric blanket or soil heater) with a metal sheet above is likely what I'll install if I do the conversion. Regards, John Nicholson www.evalbum.com/2672 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4667724.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I don't think there is any issue charging at 32°F. At any rate, you can even charge at -4°F (-20°C) if you reduce the charge rate. What the rate should be for a particular battery, I don't know. Pretty low like maybe 0.1C. I am not saying to risk this. This is all kind of sketchy because there are a lot of papers on it, but they are written about this and that cell type, this and that electrolyte. It is, as they say, a problem of kinetics. When it is cold the electrolyte may be more viscous than ideal (there are thin electrolytes used, but we have little knowledge of what our Chinese benefactors are up to). The ions have a hard time getting through the interface between the anode and the electrolyte. If the electromotive force is great then the Li simply pile up before reaching the anode (plating). This physically blocks the passage of the ions. This is reversible, but other things go wrong that degrade the performance. So you want to avoid it to be sure. Heaters are a great way to get around it. If anyone is curious, I can share this, email me your email address Multi-Scale Characterization Studies of Aged Li-Ion Large Format Cells for Improved Performance: An Overview Shrikant C. Nagpure,a,* Bharat Bhushan,a,z and S. S. Babub On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org wrote: Blue SE or Gray CA cells? I think the CA's are a substantial improvement. Keegan at the US CALB warehouse is fairly responsive. Or if you bought them from one of the US resellers I'd hope they would go to bat for you. Back on topic, I am putting mine in insulated boxes with heaters in them. Temperature controllers will turn the heat on if the cells are below 40F and disable the charger until the batteries are warmed up to at least 45F. The design right now calls for all of that to be powered by shore power. I'll be monitoring the temperature to see how they fare while parked. --Rick On 01/28/2014 05:28 PM, Cruisin wrote: If the cold isn't enough to worry when using the CALB 180ah cells, early failure is substantial with the CALB cells. I have 6 customers using 180's and all have had failures of at least one cell in the first two years. All use a BMS and a programmed Elcon, so I know the systems are designed right. About half died while driving, BMS alerted and they shut it down. The others started change in resistance values making it difficult to get a complete charge, or early discharge alarm from the BMS. One died 1 day after a one year warranty. No replacement even though CALB was told of a possible problem early on. I don't want to alarm anybody, and I am sure some forum junkie will jump in a say he has been using the cells forever without a problem. Probably some have, but my experience is that most will have a early failure. Recommendation, carry sufficient tools and HV and BMS cables to be able to isolate the cell should experience this problem. Otherwise, you will be stuck somewhere where you don't want to be. Been there and done. By the way, don't expect CALB to do anything, even during a so called warranty period. Support and service ended when you put them in your donor. I hope I didn't hijack this thread, just wanted to pass on what I think is a troublesome problem. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140130/296843d0/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Other references: This one is free and downloadable (has some neat micrographic images): Direct *in situ* measurements of Li transport in Li-ion battery negative electrodes http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0009261409015462 An online presentation of the same stuff: http://lithiumbatteryresearch.com/Plating.php On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think there is any issue charging at 32°F. At any rate, you can even charge at -4°F (-20°C) if you reduce the charge rate. What the rate should be for a particular battery, I don't know. Pretty low like maybe 0.1C. I am not saying to risk this. This is all kind of sketchy because there are a lot of papers on it, but they are written about this and that cell type, this and that electrolyte. It is, as they say, a problem of kinetics. When it is cold the electrolyte may be more viscous than ideal (there are thin electrolytes used, but we have little knowledge of what our Chinese benefactors are up to). The ions have a hard time getting through the interface between the anode and the electrolyte. If the electromotive force is great then the Li simply pile up before reaching the anode (plating). This physically blocks the passage of the ions. This is reversible, but other things go wrong that degrade the performance. So you want to avoid it to be sure. Heaters are a great way to get around it. If anyone is curious, I can share this, email me your email address Multi-Scale Characterization Studies of Aged Li-Ion Large Format Cells for Improved Performance: An Overview Shrikant C. Nagpure,a,* Bharat Bhushan,a,z and S. S. Babub On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:16 PM, Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org wrote: Blue SE or Gray CA cells? I think the CA's are a substantial improvement. Keegan at the US CALB warehouse is fairly responsive. Or if you bought them from one of the US resellers I'd hope they would go to bat for you. Back on topic, I am putting mine in insulated boxes with heaters in them. Temperature controllers will turn the heat on if the cells are below 40F and disable the charger until the batteries are warmed up to at least 45F. The design right now calls for all of that to be powered by shore power. I'll be monitoring the temperature to see how they fare while parked. --Rick On 01/28/2014 05:28 PM, Cruisin wrote: If the cold isn't enough to worry when using the CALB 180ah cells, early failure is substantial with the CALB cells. I have 6 customers using 180's and all have had failures of at least one cell in the first two years. All use a BMS and a programmed Elcon, so I know the systems are designed right. About half died while driving, BMS alerted and they shut it down. The others started change in resistance values making it difficult to get a complete charge, or early discharge alarm from the BMS. One died 1 day after a one year warranty. No replacement even though CALB was told of a possible problem early on. I don't want to alarm anybody, and I am sure some forum junkie will jump in a say he has been using the cells forever without a problem. Probably some have, but my experience is that most will have a early failure. Recommendation, carry sufficient tools and HV and BMS cables to be able to isolate the cell should experience this problem. Otherwise, you will be stuck somewhere where you don't want to be. Been there and done. By the way, don't expect CALB to do anything, even during a so called warranty period. Support and service ended when you put them in your donor. I hope I didn't hijack this thread, just wanted to pass on what I think is a troublesome problem. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edisonhttp://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A.
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
On 29 Jan 2014 at 22:59, Cor van de Water wrote: Once a month? What type of batteries were they (or haw badly were they being overcharged to gas away all that water in a month)? I watered batteries monthly, or close to it, in my Comuta-car. I also watered them pretty close to monthly in the Honda. There I had 96v charged by a blunderbuss Lestronic charger which finished at 8 amps. I wasn't adding gallons, but still I usually added a hydrometer bulb's worth or so to each cell. (I used the squeeze bulb and tube from a broken hydrometer.) Overcharged? Why yes, I think they probably were. ;-) David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-blames-Norwegian-grid-for-cold-weather-charging-failures-tp4667698.html
EVLN: Tesla blames Norwegian grid for cold-weather charging failures by
brucedp2
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Tesla-L3-EVSE-now-allows-coast-to-coast-road-trips-tp4667697.html
EVLN: Tesla L3 EVSE now allows coast-to-coast road trips
]
I have a piece I will post soon on the father daughter Tesla run ...
{brucedp.150m.com}
-
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014, at 02:36 PM, winfield...@yahoo.com, wrote:
Yes, there are about 18-20 pages in the tesla forums blog. He did take
substantial hits from the cold. But it was still doable
Original message
From: Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org
Date:01/28/2014 1:15 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Yes, but he also details how badly the cold effected his range at the
beginning of the trip. It was substantial.
--Rick
On 01/28/2014 11:47 AM, winfield...@yahoo.com, wrote:
During polar Vortex aka arctic express as was called 20+ years ago,
last week, was when father daughter team made the first Tesla run
from NYC to California using only exclusively the supercharger
network, I believe 26 stations thru as low as -20 degree weather. It
wasn't a publicity stunt, just the first of many that regular folks
will do. I'm pretty sure the tesla battery pack is temp controlled.
(Tho they did scoop the tesla run beginning this weekend, smile)
-
--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders
wherever you are
___
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(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Do you know which CALB's these were. The Blue or the Gray ? -Original Message- From: ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cruisin Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:29 PM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences If the cold isn't enough to worry when using the CALB 180ah cells, early failure is substantial with the CALB cells. I have 6 customers using 180's and all have had failures of at least one cell in the first two years. All use a BMS and a programmed Elcon, so I know the systems are designed right. About half died while driving, BMS alerted and they shut it down. The others started change in resistance values making it difficult to get a complete charge, or early discharge alarm from the BMS. One died 1 day after a one year warranty. No replacement even though CALB was told of a possible problem early on. I don't want to alarm anybody, and I am sure some forum junkie will jump in a say he has been using the cells forever without a problem. Probably some have, but my experience is that most will have a early failure. Recommendation, carry sufficient tools and HV and BMS cables to be able to isolate the cell should experience this problem. Otherwise, you will be stuck somewhere where you don't want to be. Been there and done. By the way, don't expect CALB to do anything, even during a so called warranty period. Support and service ended when you put them in your donor. I hope I didn't hijack this thread, just wanted to pass on what I think is a troublesome problem. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4667691.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I actually did experience problems with two CALB 130s (the older SE blue ones), but got a replacement from CALB as it was within the first year. They were pretty responsive actually, so I was happy. I haven't put a lot of miles on my CALBs yet (nor do I stress them much ... rarely hitting 2C on acceleration, normally below 1C), so I hope they continue to hold up. I have noticed sag in the cold a bit and with the ultra-low temps some warnings from the BMS, but they are still going fine. I sure wish I had put heat in my car - both for the batteries and for me! - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4667706.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
We seem to be hearing that although the OEM's are taking pains to cool the battery packs however perhaps the designers forgot that too cold is also detrimental and maintaining a minimum temperature in the cool parts of the world is important also, just as Diesel truck builders offer an integrated temperature maintaining engine heating devices for extreme climates in the near artic we need automatic heaters for out battery packs to warm them before during and after recharge and insulation to keep them warm in driving, not just cooling systems although those are needed also, These need not be fair weather vehicles, not like Golf carts. All weather service is our demand! *Dennis Lee Miles **. * On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org wrote: Yes, but he also details how badly the cold effected his range at the beginning of the trip. It was substantial. --Rick On 01/28/2014 11:47 AM, winfield...@yahoo.com, wrote: During polar Vortex aka arctic express as was called 20+ years ago, last week, was when father daughter team made the first Tesla run from NYC to California using only exclusively the supercharger network, I believe 26 stations thru as low as -20 degree weather. It wasn't a publicity stunt, just the first of many that regular folks will do. I'm pretty sure the tesla battery pack is temp controlled. (Tho they did scoop the tesla run beginning this weekend, smile) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140128/e0434cba/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I was chatting with someone today about this. He tried to make it an aha moment, as in Aha! See how impractical EVs are! I pointed out that equivalent or similar cold weather accomodations exist for ICEVs, it's just that he's used to them and/or they're invisible to him. For example, fuel (especially Diesel fuel) is formulated differently in cold weather. And some far-north states and countries need block heaters - to keep their ICEs warm with electricty, so they'll start with electricity! In a properly designed EV, cold worries shouldn't be a big deal. The EV's battery should have thermal management, maybe even a heater for extremely cold weather operation. In fact I would argue that EV battery thermal managemetn is elementary compared to the complex, computer controlled millisecond-by-millisecond adjustment of fuel mixture, spark timing, and even valve timing in ICEVs. Every ICEV driver takes that stuff for granted now, but in the days of the Model T and its ilk, all those adjustments had to be made on the fly by the driver. By the time I was aware of Things Automotive, spark advance was handled by centrifugal and vacuum devices. However, I'm old enough to remember (and to have used) manual chokes. One day you young whippersnappers will get to say something similar. I remember when you had to check your EV's battery temperature before charging. Can you believe it? In fact, in my first EV, I actually had to put WATER in the batteries once a month. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Once a month? What type of batteries were they (or haw badly were they being overcharged to gas away all that water in a month)? I have golfcart style batteries and charge them sparingly (normally aim at charging them to 80-90% by the time I need the car again, twice a week do a full charge with ~2h charge after the batteries reach max voltage and once every 2 weeks I make sure to charge with a long (6h) equalization charge. This allows me to water the batteries twice a year, each time the 22 of them take almost 3 gallons total, translating to almost 1/2 liter or 16 ounces per battery, so approx 150ml or just over 5 ounces per cell. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 5:22 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I was chatting with someone today about this. He tried to make it an aha moment, as in Aha! See how impractical EVs are! I pointed out that equivalent or similar cold weather accomodations exist for ICEVs, it's just that he's used to them and/or they're invisible to him. For example, fuel (especially Diesel fuel) is formulated differently in cold weather. And some far-north states and countries need block heaters - to keep their ICEs warm with electricty, so they'll start with electricity! In a properly designed EV, cold worries shouldn't be a big deal. The EV's battery should have thermal management, maybe even a heater for extremely cold weather operation. In fact I would argue that EV battery thermal managemetn is elementary compared to the complex, computer controlled millisecond-by-millisecond adjustment of fuel mixture, spark timing, and even valve timing in ICEVs. Every ICEV driver takes that stuff for granted now, but in the days of the Model T and its ilk, all those adjustments had to be made on the fly by the driver. By the time I was aware of Things Automotive, spark advance was handled by centrifugal and vacuum devices. However, I'm old enough to remember (and to have used) manual chokes. One day you young whippersnappers will get to say something similar. I remember when you had to check your EV's battery temperature before charging. Can you believe it? In fact, in my first EV, I actually had to put WATER in the batteries once a month. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
To debate with people about the necessity of thermal encapsulation of batteries. I bring the deal to very simple level so the receiver really takes the analogy. *Li-ion batteries have organic electrolyte. People are organic too. So would you survive without clothes in the -20C?* Ok. One must have some personal experience in that cold. Then it makes some sense. Cell phone is one simple example. Keep it in the outer pocket of you jacket and after some time in -25C it's dead. Keep it by the body at the lower cloth levels and it'll work just fine. We could make cells that operate in very cold but they would die fast when the water becomes liquid again. And vice versa. -Jukka p.s.- It's -12C out and the battery pack is +5C. http://www.google.com/profiles/jarviju#about 2014-01-30 EVDL Administrator evp...@drmm.net I was chatting with someone today about this. He tried to make it an aha moment, as in Aha! See how impractical EVs are! I pointed out that equivalent or similar cold weather accomodations exist for ICEVs, it's just that he's used to them and/or they're invisible to him. For example, fuel (especially Diesel fuel) is formulated differently in cold weather. And some far-north states and countries need block heaters - to keep their ICEs warm with electricty, so they'll start with electricity! In a properly designed EV, cold worries shouldn't be a big deal. The EV's battery should have thermal management, maybe even a heater for extremely cold weather operation. In fact I would argue that EV battery thermal managemetn is elementary compared to the complex, computer controlled millisecond-by-millisecond adjustment of fuel mixture, spark timing, and even valve timing in ICEVs. Every ICEV driver takes that stuff for granted now, but in the days of the Model T and its ilk, all those adjustments had to be made on the fly by the driver. By the time I was aware of Things Automotive, spark advance was handled by centrifugal and vacuum devices. However, I'm old enough to remember (and to have used) manual chokes. One day you young whippersnappers will get to say something similar. I remember when you had to check your EV's battery temperature before charging. Can you believe it? In fact, in my first EV, I actually had to put WATER in the batteries once a month. David Roden EVDL Administrator http://www.evdl.org/ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140130/a3e18738/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
I saw this thread from a couple years ago which is helpful. http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Lithium-Cell-Question-tp3984152.html But with a couple polar vortex events over much of the Eastern US this winter - and probably a few more lithium installations since 2011, I'm curious to hear how people have been managing the charging and discharging in ultra-low temperatures. In my case I have no battery warming, but did put a good 1/2 insulation on bottom/sides of my boxes. But with open tops and temps around -15C, my temp. sensor on the BMS give me a low temp warning. Discharging is ok, but charging is disallowed. So far I've been able to keep it just warm enough in the garage (at about 0C) and charge at 10-15amps (I have 130ah CALBs), so I keep going. But it's kind of brutal. I guess the electrolyte is actually warmer than the top of the cell and I might be ok charging ... but I'm not going to risk it if I don't absolutely have to. I can't imagine what an EV in Minnesota or Chicago must endure with temperatures like -25C this past week! I guess you absolutely must put in battery warming if you expect to drive the vehicle during the winter. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Dan; Great topic for discussion; I'm in the process of installing (50) Calb CA 180 Ah Cells in my 65 Datsun. Plan on an insulated box, bottom, sides, and top with aluminum lid. I have a well-insulated garage so I'm not real concerned with winter. If it gets way too cold, I'll just leave the truck at home. The top insulation, spacer, and 3/16 aluminum lid were also to serve as a way to hold my batteries down within the box. If I forgo the top insulation and lid, I will need to tie my batteries down some other way. What will be good for winter, may end up being too hot for summer. I'm in the Midwest, and we get extremes on both ends. Not sure of the best way to solve this. Any ideas ? ? ? Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366 http://evalbum.com/3715 -Original Message- From: ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Danpatgal Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 9:18 AM To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I saw this thread from a couple years ago which is helpful. http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Lithium-Cell-Question-tp3984152.html But with a couple polar vortex events over much of the Eastern US this winter - and probably a few more lithium installations since 2011, I'm curious to hear how people have been managing the charging and discharging in ultra-low temperatures. In my case I have no battery warming, but did put a good 1/2 insulation on bottom/sides of my boxes. But with open tops and temps around -15C, my temp. sensor on the BMS give me a low temp warning. Discharging is ok, but charging is disallowed. So far I've been able to keep it just warm enough in the garage (at about 0C) and charge at 10-15amps (I have 130ah CALBs), so I keep going. But it's kind of brutal. I guess the electrolyte is actually warmer than the top of the cell and I might be ok charging ... but I'm not going to risk it if I don't absolutely have to. I can't imagine what an EV in Minnesota or Chicago must endure with temperatures like -25C this past week! I guess you absolutely must put in battery warming if you expect to drive the vehicle during the winter. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Yes, but he also details how badly the cold effected his range at the beginning of the trip. It was substantial. --Rick On 01/28/2014 11:47 AM, winfield...@yahoo.com, wrote: During polar Vortex aka arctic express as was called 20+ years ago, last week, was when father daughter team made the first Tesla run from NYC to California using only exclusively the supercharger network, I believe 26 stations thru as low as -20 degree weather. It wasn't a publicity stunt, just the first of many that regular folks will do. I'm pretty sure the tesla battery pack is temp controlled. (Tho they did scoop the tesla run beginning this weekend, smile) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
If the cold isn't enough to worry when using the CALB 180ah cells, early failure is substantial with the CALB cells. I have 6 customers using 180's and all have had failures of at least one cell in the first two years. All use a BMS and a programmed Elcon, so I know the systems are designed right. About half died while driving, BMS alerted and they shut it down. The others started change in resistance values making it difficult to get a complete charge, or early discharge alarm from the BMS. One died 1 day after a one year warranty. No replacement even though CALB was told of a possible problem early on. I don't want to alarm anybody, and I am sure some forum junkie will jump in a say he has been using the cells forever without a problem. Probably some have, but my experience is that most will have a early failure. Recommendation, carry sufficient tools and HV and BMS cables to be able to isolate the cell should experience this problem. Otherwise, you will be stuck somewhere where you don't want to be. Been there and done. By the way, don't expect CALB to do anything, even during a so called warranty period. Support and service ended when you put them in your donor. I hope I didn't hijack this thread, just wanted to pass on what I think is a troublesome problem. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4667691.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Yes, there are about 18-20 pages in the tesla forums blog. He did take substantial hits from the cold. But it was still doable Original message From: Rick Beebe r...@beebe.org Date:01/28/2014 1:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Yes, but he also details how badly the cold effected his range at the beginning of the trip. It was substantial. --Rick On 01/28/2014 11:47 AM, winfield...@yahoo.com, wrote: During polar Vortex aka arctic express as was called 20+ years ago, last week, was when father daughter team made the first Tesla run from NYC to California using only exclusively the supercharger network, I believe 26 stations thru as low as -20 degree weather. It wasn't a publicity stunt, just the first of many that regular folks will do. I'm pretty sure the tesla battery pack is temp controlled. (Tho they did scoop the tesla run beginning this weekend, smile) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20140128/81c8ff1f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
