Re: [EVDL] Need Lithium batteries.
Geez really dude! A little condescending and then you top it off with no knowledge of batteries! It's obvious they are leaf batteries. He was speaking of the link in the original message he relied to. Sent from my iPad On Oct 10, 2014, at 2:16 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 10 Oct 2014 at 11:12, Roland via EV wrote: These are the batteries from the Hybrid Auto Center that I am going to use. Did you mean to include a link in your post? The word these doesn't seem to refer to anything. :-( four cells each connected two in series and then two in parallel for a voltage of 4.2 volts per cell or 8.4 volts maximum per modules at 66 a/h each ... Each module weighs just over 8 lbs. I assume that by a/h you mean amp-hours, or AH. (A/H would be amperes per hour, a meaningless unit.) If so, that would be 554Wh per module. Eight lbs is 3.6kg, for a specific energy of 154 wh/kg. Pretty impressive! NO, These are not Chinese batteries that some are having problems with. Made by the Toyota Company which I think that had the license right from GM back in 1993 when they held the patent on them. The patent ran out in 2013 which Toyota is now producing kits to change there hybrids to EV. Now it sounds like you're talking about NiMH batteries. But the specific energy above (154 wh/kg) is more than double that which is normally available from NiMH (70 wh/kg). Also, unless I missed something, NiMH cells are around 1.2 volts nominal, and most lithium chemistries are around 3.2 to 3.5 volts per cell. The voltage you state above doesn't match any of those. Perhaps you could explain more clearly what batteries plan to use. Thanks, looking forward to hearing more. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) Sent from my iPad On Oct 10, 2014, at 2:16 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 10 Oct 2014 at 11:12, Roland via EV wrote: These are the batteries from the Hybrid Auto Center that I am going to use. Did you mean to include a link in your post? The word these doesn't seem to refer to anything. :-( four cells each connected two in series and then two in parallel for a voltage of 4.2 volts per cell or 8.4 volts maximum per modules at 66 a/h each ... Each module weighs just over 8 lbs. I assume that by a/h you mean amp-hours, or AH. (A/H would be amperes per hour, a meaningless unit.) If so, that would be 554Wh per module. Eight lbs is 3.6kg, for a specific energy of 154 wh/kg. Pretty impressive! NO, These are not Chinese batteries that some are having problems with. Made by the Toyota Company which I think that had the license right from GM back in 1993 when they held the patent on them. The patent ran out in 2013 which Toyota is now producing kits to change there hybrids to EV. Now it sounds like you're talking about NiMH batteries. But the specific energy above (154 wh/kg) is more than double that which is normally available from NiMH (70 wh/kg). Also, unless I missed something, NiMH cells are around 1.2 volts nominal, and most lithium chemistries are around 3.2 to 3.5 volts per cell. The voltage you state above doesn't match any of those. Perhaps you could explain more clearly what batteries plan to use. Thanks, looking forward to hearing more. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
It is just a panel meter. I use one to turn off my charger. It has worked fine for that and it seems accurate but I haven't compared it to other data. Capacity is another issue since it drops slightly with every charge and discharge cycle. It will keep good record of what was put in. I haven't used mine both for charge and discharge so I have no experience there but it worked fine for turning off the charger and counting Amphours. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 2:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141012/42cdcd2b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like. I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts. I have never seen any study done on top balancing lithium batteries. I would love it if someone should come up with one. That a left over procedure from lead acid batteries on which it actually works. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 4:02 PM, Cruisin via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. A BMS is designed to perform this function, but turns off the charger when a single cell reaches the pre-programmed voltage, after permitting all cells to achieve the same voltage by shunting. It also protects against over dis-discharge. A single meter cannot perform these tasks in anyway shape or form. The SOC meter provides all the information concerning usage and is VERY accurate and programmable. All American electric production cars use very sophisticated BMS systems to achieve longevity due to a mandatory 8-year 100k mile warranty required in CA. Don't risk a expensive Li-ion battery pack by relying on a meter to shutoff the charger at a set voltage. Could be used as a backup if desired. If we learn from the big guns on how they do it, we will be on the right track and prevent a disaster that too many can attest to. My 2-cents worth. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Lightobject-meter-experience-tp4672073p4672079.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
I skip constant voltage. My cell voltage at the end of charge is 3.34 volts after settling for several hours. When I use cc - cv mode they settle to 3.38 volts. You don't loose more than a couple miles range by skipping the cv mode. Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2014, at 9:56 PM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a JLD-404 that I use as a fuel gauge and it's worked flawlessly for that. It seems to be pretty accurate. I have bought things from EVTV even though they are more expensive than other sources, but these I buy right from lightobject because Jack has cranked up the price way too much. Their shipping is fair and quick. I also use one of their JLD-612DC temperature controllers to control the water heater in my truck. It too works well. A problem, however, with controlling a charger is knowing what to trigger on. The normal charge scheme is to charge to a certain voltage at whatever amperage you can manage and then hold that voltage and taper the current off to some small value. I don't think you can really duplicate that. I suppose you could turn it off at some voltage and when the pack voltage drops (which it will almost immediately) turn it back on until it stops dropping below the threshold. You could trigger on Ah but I always put more in than I took out so that's problematic too. --Rick On 10/12/2014 3:10 PM, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi All, In my continuing fight to lower lithium battery pack costs I was wondering if anyone has experience with the Lightobject Wthr , etc meter like the one EVTV made the vid of they rebranded? Especially interested in it's use turning off the battery charger and how well it keeps track of battery capacity of lithium packs, etc? Thanks, Jerry Dycus ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lightobject meter experience
According to whom? Sent from my iPad On Oct 13, 2014, at 1:55 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cruisin via EVev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Using a meter to turn off a charger at a pre-programmed voltage can be very risky. Paul Dove wrote: Problem is no one has actually proved that with experimentation. Not in any of my reading. You can believe what ever you like. I have used ammeter for 2 years now. The voltage always end exactly the same. The next day the pack is the pack is exactly 147 volts. Martin WINLOW via EV wrote: The problem I have with relying on simple pack voltage measurement to control the charger is that eventually, as the pack ages, one or more cells are going to go out of balance, become the 'weakest link' and cause the capacity of the pack as a whole to unnecessarily reduce. From a safety perspective (safety of the pack) I suppose the Light-meter method is as good as any but it is the vagueness of its operation that is the issue for me. When the pack is new, and if the cells are already well balanced, then measuring the overall voltage works. But, the cells might NOT be initially well balanced. If you bought them from the cheapest source, they almost certainly didn't take the time to balance them for you. Just because the cells are at the same voltage doesn't mean they are balanced. Voltage is not a good indicator of state of charge for lithium cells. Then, the cells are going to age. Time is not likely to improve them; instead it's almost certain to make them worse. Finally, consider this. You *will* use the pack until it fails! And the failure modes of lithium cells can be catastrophic (early destruction of an expensive pack, serious fires, etc.) With no BMS, nothing will detect, warn, or prevent disastrous failures. -- Failure is only the opportunity to begin again more intelligently. -- Henry Ford -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?)
You get no where near that much energy back. 5% on average. Do the math regen produces a few amps and acceleration uses hundreds of amps. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 28, 2014, at 3:57 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: 'REGEN SPREADS TO SUSPENSION SYSTEMS' http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/life/2014/10/23/click-clack-slow-steady-wins-race/17804227/ Click Clack: Slow and steady wins the race October 23, 2014 Dear Tom and Ray: I am always irritated by people who have their accelerators pressed right up until the moment they apply the brakes. For example, I might be a half a block from a red light and will start coasting in anticipation of the stop. Someone behind me will swerve into the left lane, accelerate past me and then I will pull up next to him at the light, having lost the race. This, it seems to me, is a great way to use extra gas. But with the new regenerative brakes on electric and hybrid cars, it may no longer be such a stupid maneuver. What percentage of the energy a car uses to accelerate is gained back via regenerative braking? I’m guessing about half, but if it’s 90 percent, it might not make much difference anymore if you drive stupidly, at least from a cost standpoint. — John TOM: Yeah, it’s still a stupid way to drive, John. RAY: Cars that use regenerative braking can capture half, or even a little more than half, of the energy that would otherwise have been lost to heat during braking. That’s a wonderful thing, no doubt about it. TOM: But if you keep spending a dollar and getting back 50 cents, you still will go broke eventually. It’ll just take longer. RAY: “Regenerative braking” is kind of a misleading term, because it doesn’t really apply to the brakes, as we think of them. TOM: What it does is use your car’s wheels, which are already turning, to generate electricity. That electricity can then be sent to a battery, where it can be stored for later use. RAY: When the wheels are powering the generator, the generator provides resistance, so the wheels naturally slow down. That’s the “braking” part of all this. TOM: And what’s so clever is how hybrid- and electric-vehicle makers use both that resistance and the traditional brakes to slow and stop the car. RAY: When you step on the brake pedal, the car’s electronic braking controller determines how much braking is needed, how quickly, and how much electricity the battery can accept and store at the moment. Then it figures out whether to get the braking from regeneration, the mechanical braking system or some combination of the two. And if it’s done well, with well-designed software, you, as the driver, don’t know the difference. TOM: So, when you race ahead to a stoplight and then hit the brakes at the last minute in a car with regenerative braking, you do recoup some of that energy that would previously have disappeared as heat from the friction of the brakes. But you don’t get all of it. RAY: In fact, the more urgently you need to stop, the more likely the mechanical brakes will have to be called into action, which means you’ll get even less recouped through regeneration. TOM: So we don’t recommend this style of driving, even if you have a hybrid or electric car, John. RAY: Here’s the final reason why: Even if you don’t waste as much energy as you appear to be wasting, you still feel like a jerk when the guy you annoyingly raced past pulls up next to you at the light with a smug look on his face and smiles at you. Got a question about cars? Write to Click and Clack at www.cartalk.com. [© greatfallstribune.com] ... http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2014/10/25/regeneration-not-a-license-to-drive-dumb.html Car Talk: ‘Regeneration’ not a license to drive dumb By Tom and Ray Magliozzi October 24, 2014 ... http://www.southbendtribune.com/click-here-for-story/article_c37a5697-596c-5bfe-b43b-827fde50404b.html RAY: “Regenerative braking” is kind of a misleading term ... October 26, 2014 [dated] http://earthtechling.com/2013/09/regenerative-energy-car-tech-spreads-to-suspension-systems/ BY NINO MARCHETTI SEPTEMBER 4, 2013 REGENERATIVE ENERGY CAR TECH SPREADS TO SUSPENSION SYSTEMS ... “the world’s first fully active suspension system with energy recovery function.” ... For EVLN posts use: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/feature/2376392/electric-cars-scheme-aims-to-spark-a-revolution-in-yorkshire S. Yorkshire.uk incentive scheme integrates EVs into business fleets http://www.eetindia.co.in/ART_8800705576_188_NT_e1cb9076.HTM Siemens' Sivetec-MSA3300 integrated inverter+motor-in1case powertrain ... http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/24/siemens-developed-new-ev-motorinverter-combination-cuts-costs/ New Siemens EV Motor+Inverter Combination
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?)
Read it again. He says right up front in the article, On the first part of the steep downhill run, we could recover about 5% of the total capacity through recuperation. From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?) On 28 Oct 2014 at 8:38, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: Notice I used 90% into the battery and 90% out to give a net 81% battery efficiency (to match the 80% claimed by some EV's). I seem to recall that charge efficiency of batteries is very close to 100% when they are below 80% SOC. I'm quite sure this is true for lead, and probably for other types too. I think you're to quick to convict regen without a fair trial. In the real world it typically increases range between 5% and 20%. In very hilly conditions it can be quite significant. One example : http://www.brusa.biz/index.php?id=43L=1 Regen is probably not worth it for folks who use series motors. It calls for too much additional hardware and you're probably better off spending that money on more battery capacity. However, it's relatively easier and not all that costly to add regen to sepex and induction motor controllers, so there it's easier to justify. It also has some often forgotten benefits, particularly for lead battery users. By keeping the battery at a higher SOC during a given use, it can reduce battery depreciation. Also, periodic high current charging (higher than most overnight chargers can produce) is healthy for lead batteries, as long as they're below 80% SOC. IMO burning off an EV's kinetic energy as heat in the mechanical brakes is usually just plain wasteful. Besides, though it's purely a matter of opinion, I find EVs with regen much more pleasant to drive than those without. Coasting is fine and a good idea for efficiency; I just like to have regen available. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/46cd63bd/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?)
Thanks, that is what I said. Nice to see someone has published measured results. From: tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?) I've measured 50 - 55% of the vehicle kinetic energy back into the pack during braking with only regen a number of times. The Tesla S seems to do a bit better, with up to 70% back - the more aggressively you use it the more you get back, but its not a huge effect. Dropping down from a summit I typically get back about 20% of the energy that was used going up to the summit. This is a link to a post at diyelectriccar where I posted a number of links to data I've taken: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=366384postcount=20 This is a link to an article in Drag Times where they report energy gained from regen when stopping at the end of a 1/4 mile run in a Tesla S: http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-s-drag-racing-energy-usage-and-cost This is a link to calculations showing you typically should get about 10% +/- 5% energy back from regen as a percentage of energy used, which agrees with measurements I have done: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=382974postcount=45 If you do mostly highway driving then yes, 5% back as a percentage of energy used is roughly correct. The more stops and the more hills the more energy you recoup with regen as the calculations clearly demonstrate. There are different ways of expressing the energy regained by regen, as a percentage of energy used during a trip, as a percentage of total pack capacity as it appears CC state it, and for energy regained coming down a hill it is sometimes stated in terms of percentage of energy used going up the hill as I did above, or as a percentage of the potential energy of the vehicle at the top of the hill relative to at the bottom as I did in one of the above links. These percentages all differ from each other for a given run of course due to different denominators. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-What-Click-n-Clack-know-about-regen-tp4672248p4672256.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/7f68191a/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?)
Not even Tesla makes that claim! We must also remember that, even though the battery-to-wheel conversion efficiency is pretty good (up to 80% or so), the energy makes a full circle back into the battery and it gets converted twice for a net efficiency of at most 80% * 80% = 64%. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/magic-tesla-roadster-regenerative-braking From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What Click-n-Clack know about regen (?) Paul Dove via EV wrote: You get no where near that much energy back. 5% on average. 5% is roughly the amount of range extension that regen provides. It can be more if you make very frequent stops (like a delivery vehicle), or live in a very hilly area. Otherwise, you don't use the brakes enough to get more than a few percent of the energy you're using to drive. But the peak regen current can easily be 100s of amps (during the brief time that you are braking). Most controllers that can do regen can deliver about the same amount of regen current as they can motoring current. Note that when you *do* get 100's of amps of regen current, you are decelerating very fast! I had an EV with a 500 amp aircraft starter/generator as its motor; it would easily deliver over 500 amps of regen. But when it did, you'd better be on dry pavement or it would skid the tires! -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141028/deea776b/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EV-spirits: Use a Halloween Costume for the EV-cause
I usually just let them drive my car. Then they say this is just like a regular car only peppier Sent from my iPad On Nov 1, 2014, at 5:54 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This is my observation about countering anti-EV rhetoric. If you find things are different where you are, I'd like to hear about it! Maybe 15-20 years ago, when I talked to people about EVs, most didn't know much about them. When I explained the state of the art (then), the most common reaction I got was that EVs were a good idea - for someone else. (I couldn't deal with that limited range). I almost never heard today's litany of anti-EV arguments from anyone. Today folks I talk to are much more informed about EVs. That makes for a classical good news, bad news situation. Some of them have generally positive views of EVs, though there still some misconceptions. A subset of those folks say they're considering an EV or PHV for their next vehicles. That's a really positive change. The idea that they might buy an EV wasn't even on their radar back in the day. On the other hand, some of the informed folks have clearly been deliberatly MISinformed. They've had their heads filled with anti-EV rhetoric by media. The media people in turn are paid (sponsored) by big- bucks interests who stand to someday lose a fraction of a percent of their petro-dollars income, or are otherwise threatened by EVs. (In some cases I don't doubt that they are literally paid to spread these views, given the ownership of some media conglomerates.) There's also a whole army of paid astroturfers who troll the online forums, and write to magazines and newspapers, to post anti-EV rhetoric. The same folks who pay them also pay anti-EV experts to appear on radio and television programs. But this is really no different from any other product today. Politicians and advertisers are really two ends of the same sausage. Their game is sowing discord and division. You're an Apple person or a Windows person, an IOS or an Android person, a Ford or a Chevy person, a Democrat or a Republican. Some of these brands demand more loyalty than others, but in every case there's an element of you're either with us or you're against us. Drink the Kool-aid, drink it all, or get lost. Alas, that's just the way things are now; there's not much we can do to change it. It's the reason that it's become difficult (at least for me) to argue rationally with the anti-EV folks. They're all upstanding members of the anti-EV club. Their minds are made up, and they don't want to be bothered with the facts. I say don't waste your time on them. Instead, invest it in the folks who still have open minds about EVs. Thank goodness there are still some. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] A self contained car charging system
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Tesla Model S? My friends all drive EV's I must make amends. Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends, So Lord, won't you buy me a Tesla Model S? Sent from my iPad On Oct 14, 2014, at 11:02 AM, rayfellow via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here's a self contained EV charging system. Also some interesting comments about EV vs ICE refueling mentality. http://www.wired.com/2014/10/envision-solar-ev-charger/ David Strong -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/A-self-contained-car-charging-system-tp4672107.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141101/d571410e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Volt pih EVSE a suspect in NW Houston TX garage fire
Bet it was his BMS
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 6, 2014, at 2:43 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
% ?Bad wiring, defective EVSE, wrong EVSE choice for a Volt pih? %
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/neighborhood/2014/11/05/electric-car-charger-may-be-to-blame-for-garage-fire-in-nw-houston/18531911/
Electric car charger may be to blame for garage fire in NW Houston
KHOU Staff November 5, 2014
[image
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/KHOU/None/2014/11/05/635507852942292406-Bayou-Vista-Garage-Fire.JPG
An electric car charger is being blamed for a late night fire on the
northwest side of town.(Photo: Metro)
]
HOUSTON – An electric car charger is being blamed for a late night fire on
the northwest side of town.
According to the Houston Fire Department, it happened around 11:45 p.m. on
Tuesday at a home in the 5000 block of Bayou Vista near Bolivia.
Luckily, the flames stayed in the garage but completely destroyed the
family's Chevy Volt. The owner says they had just bought a new charger.
Fire investigators believe that's what sparked the fire. However, they will
have to wait until the investigation is complete before they know for sure.
[© khou.com]
http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessories/gm-voltec-evse
GM Voltec EVSE
...
http://poulsenhybrid.com/introducing-the-poulsen-power-evse-residential-charge-station/
Poulsen Hybrid Level 2 EVSE Charge Station
...
http://gm-volt.com/forum/tags.php?tag=evse
Forum discussion
...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-Volt-Bosch-Electric-Car-Charger-Vehicle-EVSE-Charging-Station-EV-West-/111213901053
Chevy Volt Bosch Electric Car Charger Vehicle EVSE Charging Station
...
[dated]
http://evchels.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/gmcharging/
GM to CA Volt drivers: “Oops, we did it again.” August 19, 2011
...
http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevrolet-volt-level-2-charging-equipment-240v-installation-costs-rebates-and-incentives
Chevrolet Volt Level 2 Charging Equipment 240v Installation, Costs, Rebates,
and Incentives (updated) 1/5/2011
...
http://gm-volt.com/2013/09/20/who-makes-the-fastest-charging-ev/
Who makes the fastest-charging EV? [2013/09/20]
http://www.plugincars.com/how-fast-can-you-really-charge-your-plug-car-answer-more-complicated-you-think-64616.html
How Fast Can You Really Charge Your Plug-in Car? The Answer is More
Complicated Than You Think · Nick Chambers [2010]
...
http://www.plugincars.com/chevrolet-volt
% Note Volt pih can't charge faster than 3.3kW %
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5079-3.3-kW-on-board-charger
...
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/smart-charge-residential-inc-austin?select=daPrk_58lOg-1_3rh-OJvA#daPrk_58lOg-1_3rh-OJvA
Tom Canfield, 2013 Chevy VOLT and owner of a new 7.2kW Schneider Electric
EVSE December 16, 2013
% His 7.2kW is wa$ted on the Volt pih's 3.3kW on-board charger %
...
http://www.evquorum.com/ev-charging-stations-aka-evse.html
EV Charging Stations aka EVSE Apr 1, 2014 - A Chevy Volt or Spark, for
example charges at a maximum of 3 kW, which what a 16 amp unit puts out at
240v ...
For EVLN posts use:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Volt-pih-EVSE-a-suspect-in-NW-Houston-TX-garage-fire-tp4672373.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Volt pih EVSE a suspect in NW Houston TX garage fire
I take that back.
I assume from the pictures that the charger they replaced was a wall charger
not in the car.
They most likely did not change to a larger gauge wire in the wall.
They probably just put in a different breaker.
The new charger pulled more current than the wire could handle and burned up.
Be nice if they followed up with an explanation but we will probably never know.
From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2014 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pih EVSE a suspect in NW Houston TX garage fire
Bet it was his BMS
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 6, 2014, at 2:43 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
% ?Bad wiring, defective EVSE, wrong EVSE choice for a Volt pih? %
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/neighborhood/2014/11/05/electric-car-charger-may-be-to-blame-for-garage-fire-in-nw-houston/18531911/
Electric car charger may be to blame for garage fire in NW Houston
KHOU Staff November 5, 2014
[image
http://www.gannett-cdn.com/media/KHOU/None/2014/11/05/635507852942292406-Bayou-Vista-Garage-Fire.JPG
An electric car charger is being blamed for a late night fire on the
northwest side of town.(Photo: Metro)
]
HOUSTON – An electric car charger is being blamed for a late night fire on
the northwest side of town.
According to the Houston Fire Department, it happened around 11:45 p.m. on
Tuesday at a home in the 5000 block of Bayou Vista near Bolivia.
Luckily, the flames stayed in the garage but completely destroyed the
family's Chevy Volt. The owner says they had just bought a new charger.
Fire investigators believe that's what sparked the fire. However, they will
have to wait until the investigation is complete before they know for sure.
[© khou.com]
http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessories/gm-voltec-evse
GM Voltec EVSE
...
http://poulsenhybrid.com/introducing-the-poulsen-power-evse-residential-charge-station/
Poulsen Hybrid Level 2 EVSE Charge Station
...
http://gm-volt.com/forum/tags.php?tag=evse
Forum discussion
...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-Volt-Bosch-Electric-Car-Charger-Vehicle-EVSE-Charging-Station-EV-West-/111213901053
Chevy Volt Bosch Electric Car Charger Vehicle EVSE Charging Station
...
[dated]
http://evchels.wordpress.com/2011/08/19/gmcharging/
GM to CA Volt drivers: “Oops, we did it again.” August 19, 2011
...
http://www.mychevroletvolt.com/chevrolet-volt-level-2-charging-equipment-240v-installation-costs-rebates-and-incentives
Chevrolet Volt Level 2 Charging Equipment 240v Installation, Costs, Rebates,
and Incentives (updated) 1/5/2011
...
http://gm-volt.com/2013/09/20/who-makes-the-fastest-charging-ev/
Who makes the fastest-charging EV? [2013/09/20]
http://www.plugincars.com/how-fast-can-you-really-charge-your-plug-car-answer-more-complicated-you-think-64616.html
How Fast Can You Really Charge Your Plug-in Car? The Answer is More
Complicated Than You Think · Nick Chambers [2010]
...
http://www.plugincars.com/chevrolet-volt
% Note Volt pih can't charge faster than 3.3kW %
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?5079-3.3-kW-on-board-charger
...
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/smart-charge-residential-inc-austin?select=daPrk_58lOg-1_3rh-OJvA#daPrk_58lOg-1_3rh-OJvA
Tom Canfield, 2013 Chevy VOLT and owner of a new 7.2kW Schneider Electric
EVSE December 16, 2013
% His 7.2kW is wa$ted on the Volt pih's 3.3kW on-board charger %
...
http://www.evquorum.com/ev-charging-stations-aka-evse.html
EV Charging Stations aka EVSE Apr 1, 2014 - A Chevy Volt or Spark, for
example charges at a maximum of 3 kW, which what a 16 amp unit puts out at
240v ...
For EVLN posts use:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate
{brucedp.150m.com}
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Volt-pih-EVSE-a-suspect-in-NW-Houston-TX-garage-fire-tp4672373.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
___
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For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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Re: [EVDL] Volt pih EVSE a suspect in NW Houston TX garage fire
True! But there is a very high probability it was the charger since that was a recent change. After all we have seen it with the Tesla as well. Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA), which is under investigation by U.S. regulators over fires in its Model S sedan after battery punctures, will upgrade wall-charger adapters following reports of overheating in garages. The charger connectors, which tether Tesla-issued cables to wall outlets, will be mailed out in the next two weeks, Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said in an interview today. The replacements will be treated as a recall, though owners won’t be required to travel to service centers. Overheating can stem from inadequate household wiring, he said. “These are very rare events, but occasionally the wiring isn’t done right,” Musk said. “We want people to have absolute comfort, so we’re going to be providing them with an upgraded adapter.” The decision to provide the improved part follows a series of about a half-dozen incidents, described on a Tesla-owner website and in some cases relayed to U.S. regulators, in which Model S wall plugs melted or smoked while vehicles were recharging. The redesigned adapter will include a thermal fuse designed to shut off charging if overheating is detected, Musk said. At least six overheating incidents were reported on the Tesla Motors Club users forum website between March and December. In October, one Model S owner reported that “plumes of smoke” came from his adapter, which fused to the charging cord. A York, Pennsylvania, owner reported burning his hands and arm trying to remove his charging cord after smelling melting plastic in December. There are five reports of Model S cord and plug overheating in NHTSA’s consumer complaint database, including some of the incidents reported on the Tesla user website. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-10/tesla-to-upgrade-wall-adapters-after-reports-of-garage-fires.html From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2014 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Volt pih EVSE a suspect in NW Houston TX garage fire It's a shame that the news piece mentioned a PHV here. That creates a negative association in the naïve reader's mind. Right now, all we know for sure is that some guy's garage burned. It could have been the car or the charger or the charger wiring, but there are countless things that can cause garage fires. Presumably the investigators will figure it out. Maybe I'm hypersensitive about this, but I think that mentioning the Volt was something of a cheap shot for the paper. It implies blame, and it's hard to avoid seeing it as playing on the public's fear of the new and different to sell the news. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141106/288ded30/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Range vs Speed
It's never zero because of conservation of energy. I think Tesla says their electronics are only 80% efficient so you loose 20% on acceleration and another 20% on regen. Not counting other losses such as wind. From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Robert Bruninga bruni...@usna.edu; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, November 6, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Range vs Speed I should have graphed it out for myself as a reminder. When you accelerate to speed up, the work done (velocity is changed) is in one direction,and when you slow down in the other. You sum positive and negative acceleration, and when you have stopped the sum is zero. But the differences in acceleration do make difference when regen and wind are considered. More likely you slow down harder than you speed up, and at lower wind speeds, with some fractional recovery from regen. De-accelerating is actually enhanced at higher speeds by air drag, but regen loses out when the wind does the work. I wonder if you regen hard from high speeds - to beat the wind to the punch, then take it easy for the slower de-acceleration, at lower wind speeds, what that does? On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Energy used in driving is simple physics: Everything you put into acceleration you get back in Momentum. Everything you put into a hill, you get back as potential energy. Everything you put into braking is LOST (regen gains some back). Wind resistance goes up as the cube of speed. So the only real control you have over energy is keeping the speed (wind resistance) down. Gas cars are actually MORE efficient at high acceleration when the throttle plate is wide open and the pumping losses are minimized. So creeping away from a traffic light does not really gain anything. BUT, if it is a typical gas car and the engine then keeps running during the coast phase, that too is 100% waste (engine running but doing nothing). When people say go light on the accelerator they are not talking about the rate of acceleration at all. They are talking about DON'T OVER ACCELERATE beyond what it takes to coast to the next stop without having to use the brakes. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of John Lussmyer via EV Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 12:44 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: [EVDL] Range vs Speed I'm not seeing much difference in power usage at different speeds. Last night, I drove 60 miles on the highway/freeway, almost entirely at 60mph. used 125AH out of my freshly charged pack. Tonight, I drove the return trip, taking almost an hour longer due to horrible slow traffic on the freeway. Often stopped or below 10mph. Same power usage. -- Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams... ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141106/c07ac7ee/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141106/ecee185a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Q about using an electronic load.
I have always used a load bank. It works great Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2014, at 2:18 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am investigating how to test cells and packs - I will need to charge and discharge. If I have a programmable electronic load, rather than purely resistive loads, is this an unrealistic way to discharge batteries? I gather they use power MOSFETS and switch them to product the desired output current from the batteries. I think this implies some transients at some frequency. Does it matter? Can I mitigate the effect with lots of capacitors? Or whatever else I have not thought of... (Please bear with me going forward, I have a lot of questions in the same vein.) Thanks, -- *Michael Ross* *Testing Laboratory Manager* *NC Clean Energy Technology Center* *Testing Laboratory* *NC State University* 919.513.0418 (office) 919.576.0824 (alternate) 919.631.1451 (cell) michael_r...@ncsu.edu www.nccleantech.ncsu.edu Formerly the NC Solar Center *JOIN THE CONVERSATION ONLINE* Facebook http://facebook.com/NCSolarCenter / Twitter https://twitter.com/search?q=nccleantech / LinkedIn http://linkedin.com/company/north-carolina-solar-center / YouTube http://youtube.com/user/TheNCSolarCenter michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141106/15602553/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Q about using an electronic load.
I have an HP 6050a 1800 watt electronic load Sent from my iPhone On Nov 6, 2014, at 4:25 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have heard of putting a roll of fencing in a tank to steam off heat. Is this useful with a programmable load? Or is this just a crude way to discharge. Someone mentioned needing a heat dispensing means would be needed with a programmable load. Any recommendation of actual units to look at? On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Correct - a *supply* can use switching to minimize losses, a *load* simply burns the power away in linear mode (current control). Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Roger Stockton via EV Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2014 1:12 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Q about using an electronic load. Michael Ross wrote: If I have a programmable electronic load, rather than purely resistive loads, is this an unrealistic way to discharge batteries? I gather they use power MOSFETS and switch them to product the desired output current from the batteries. I think this implies some transients at some frequency. A programmable load is fine for discharging batteries. I believe the power devices are operated in linear mode, not PWMed, and have not observed any transients on the load current on any of the electronic loads I've used. Cheers, Roger. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain happiness, or should I help others gain happiness? *Dalai Lama * Tell me what it is you plan to do With your one wild and precious life? Mary Oliver, The summer day. To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141106/030befd1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Crusin Batteries
Charge them at 1C to 4.2V don't discharge past 2.5V they are 3.75 volts nominal. From: Steve Clunn via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Crusin Batteries Hi Guys Audrey Clunn here... Just got my shipment of LEAF Batteries from Crusin... they look incredible !!! It was suppose to be a SURPRISE gift for Steve... but I had to ask Steve about them... sooo he knows when he gets home from working on that SMITH CAB OVER conversion..that they are waiting for him. ! Crusin was real nice and helpful and made the whole purchase easy and they look terrific !!! Does anybody have any thoughts on what the charge and discharge voltages should be? Speaking of SMITH Cab over.. we already have an AC Propulsion 150 up for sale on our web page... BUT ... we will also have the AC system out of this Cab Over up for sale soon sooo watch my web page... Anyone out there ever work with these SMITH CAB OVERS ??? WHOA they sure are big !! AUDREY CLUNN -- Steve Clunn Merging the best of the past with the best of the future. www.Greenshedconversions.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141107/05694086/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins
Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads. Previously it was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay for roads because how would you know which part went into the vehicle. So they have to devise another way Sent from my iPhone On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:36 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 7 Nov 2014 at 2:07, brucedp5 via EV wrote: Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005 as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished. Right, so let's discourage that. Great. I see this sort of notion and have to conclude that the US has the world's most (literally) backward governments. In most countries, they ENCOURAGE use of EVs and high-MPG ICEVs. Here, we're discouraging them by making them pay an extra tax. These state legislators seem to have forgotten that by taking better care of the environment, EV drivers are SAVING them tax dollars. (As the old saw says, no good deed goes unpunished.) I suppose one reason for the legal difference is that most (all?) European nations have laws requiring them to reduce carbon emissions, though how fully they're enforced I don't know. I'm preaching to the choir, I suppose. Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than 100,000 plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will continue to jam up. From the standpoint of encouraging EV adoption, it appears to me that carpool lane access for EVs has been a huge success in CA. The problem is that it's a self-limiting perquisite. The more vehicles you let in, the less desirable the carpool lanes are. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid battery reconditioning
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_restore_nickel_based_batteries Sent from my iPad On Nov 17, 2014, at 5:57 AM, Pestka, Dennis J via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Has anyone heard of this company, or have any experience with them. http://www.thehybridshop.com/battery-conditioning/how-hybrid-battery-conditioning-works-science/ A friend has a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid, and his batteries are starting to show signs of old age. To replace the pack at the dealer is $5000 vs. $1000 - $1500 to recondition them. Sounds like voodoo to me, but I have no experience with nickel metal hybrid batteries. Need to know if this is really a viable alternative. Thanks; Dennis Elsberry, MO http://www.evalbum.com/1366 http://evalbum.com/3715 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141117/40c8bed3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Hybrid battery reconditioning
You all need to read the link I posted. It explains how to recondition Nickle based batteries. It also explains the failure mechanism and why this works. From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, November 17, 2014 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hybrid battery reconditioning From the webpage description, it sounds like they know what they're doing, though I have no way to judge whether they're using appropriate criteria for deciding which modules are defective. Alas, any time you fix a declining EV battery by replacing the worst cells or blocks, rather than all of them, you have no way to know what other cells or blocks might turn toes up next week, next month, or next year. I've done what they describe with lead EV batteries, replacing blocks as they fail. With that situation it's mostly a losing game, because once a couple blocks die, the rest usually aren't far behind. Coincidentally, this is a NiMH question I'm facing too. I have a 36v 10ah NiMH e-bike battery here that's on its last legs. I've been debating whether to (a) replace just the bum cells and see how it goes, (b) replace all the cells, or (c) gut the battery and try lithium cells instead. (Tenergy brand tabbed D-size cells are around $9 each plus shipping; other brands are much more expensive, if you can even find them with tabs.) I'll be interested to hear from anyone who has experience doing this with NiMH in EVs. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141117/8634f361/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
I built mine 2 years ago. The only time I charged it anywhere besides my garage was when I towed it to EVCON. It's mostly a silly argument and most chargers around cities are never used. From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/90b83eec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV
Nothing is impossible with enough time and money but as it stands today the current power distribution cannot supply the desired power. You are also limited but the voltage of the car. My car for instance is max 160V. So you would need 100 Amps to charge it in an hour. 600 amps to charge in 10 minutes. Even if the charge station could handle it my car wires won't. Same with your example you would still need over 300 amps at 400 volts to charge a leaf in 10 minutes or am I missing something? Or did I do the math wrong? From: Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV cannot is an absolute and dangerous statement. Incidentally it is untrue, but let's do some math first: Presume that we *don't* use a buffer battery (AKA dump charge battery) and all power is directly drawn from the local grid to show worst-case: If a Leaf pulls up with a totally empty battery and needs to recharge to 80% (which is the max that you can do typically for fast-charge) then you need less than 20kWh. For that energy to be delivered in 10 mins, you need 120kW. The standard mid-voltage overhead wiring that distributes power throughout town typically works at voltages around 11-22kV, so you are talking about a current of less than 11 Amp of mid-voltage supply. This is a significant amount of power, but nothing difficult for the power distribution, you just need a new tap directly from the mid-voltage to a (new) transformer on the premises of the charging station. Similar to what a commercial building would require. Or a new street with a few dozen houses. See - the fast charge stations that Tesla is putting in everywhere? They draw about 100kW per charger, since they charge the Tesla pack in 1/2h so if Tesla has already done this, why are you saying cannot? In my opinion, it is simply an engineering question and as it appears, it has already been solved. Note that if you meant cannot be done at home then there is indeed the issue of the power that a typical home is connected with, usually not more than 25kW (240V 200Amp connections are common in USA, but the typical pole pig transformer is only supposed to do 25kW continuously een though it can be overloaded to 50kW without immediate problems) so then you would require a dump pack if you need to charge faster than in 1 hour. In Europe a typical home is either connected to single phase 230V with at least a 25Amp fuse, optionally upgraded to 35Amp or you can request the power company to put in all 3 fuses to give you 400V (3-phase) at a minimum of 25A, which would give you access to at minimum 5.7kW and for 3-phase it becomes at least 17kW (the 3-phase wiring is run to each electricity meter inside a home, you only need to add the wiring from meter to the 3-phase outlet and re-distribute the breakers across the 3 phases, then the power company will swap out the meter and you are set. This is routinely done when you cook electric or use power tools). Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 4:04 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Supercapacitors could get Tesla their 7credit-EV The problem is not charging time. The problem is the electrical power grid cannot supply the energy to charge a car in 10 minutes Sent from my iPad On Nov 20, 2014, at 3:54 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: http://paultan.org/2014/11/15/battery-free-electric-cars/ Battery-free electric cars possible with graphene-based supercapacitors, according to research By Gregory Sze / 15 November 2014 [image http://s2.paultan.org/image/2013/10/Tesla-Model-S-05.jpg Tesla Model S-05 ] A study conducted by researchers at Rice University and the Queensland University of Technology have resulted in the creation of a graphene-based supercapacitor film that could possibly replace the need for a conventional battery in electric cars. Construction for the supercapacitor consists of two layers of graphene with an electrolyte layer sandwiched in the middle - creating a thin and durable film that is able to disperse large amounts of energy in a short amount of time. Being made from graphene allows for the layer of carbon to measure in at one atom thick. Naturally, this would help with the packaging of the vehicle as the film can be incorporated into different parts of the car - from the body panels to the roof and even the doors. Another added benefit is the fact that carbon is more easily sourced compared to lithium, allowing for lower
Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
Just a little history, gasoline cars had to buy gas in gallon cans from the hardware store in the beginning. Sent from my iPad On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:53 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I think the solution will be much more boring than that. As battery capacity increases and charge time decreases, we'll simply see filling stations morph to charging stations. Status quo. I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able. The rest will use filling stations. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!) Ben Goren via EV wrote: I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging stations This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little to do with politics and business. I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out what to charge for charging as opposed to parking... Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way* more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC outlet on that meter. -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
I believe that is why Tesla gives it away to its customers. Sent from my iPad On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: And with parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking credit cards, I see a potential future in the merging of the two. At least in the US, it is normal for electric utilities to have made it illegal for others to resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was first being established. (If you don't give us the exclusive rights to sell power, we won't your town on the electric grid. Sign here...) So you can't legally sell power at a charging station without the power company's blessing. But you CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide free electricity! -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
Thanks for the clarification. I meant they do not directly charge for electricity. Sent from my iPad On Nov 25, 2014, at 8:41 AM, robert winfield winfield...@yahoo.com wrote: Tesla does not give it away, you pay either $2,000 (or $2,500 later) to have the Supercharger enabled so you are purchasing energy in advance, for inter city travel (between cities) So, will you use 50,000+ miles of prepaid electricity? (I have spoken with people who have trouble comprehending the differance of 10-20 seconds at home to plugin to charge vs Oh boy, free electricity, i'll drive 40-60 miles (hour), fill up for an hour or half hour at a supercharger, drive 40-60 miles back (another hour or so) who dont comprehend the cost to fill a battery and focus on free) This is EV related in thats it's charging On Tue, 11/25/14, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2014, 8:53 AM I believe that is why Tesla gives it away to its customers. Sent from my iPad On Nov 24, 2014, at 11:45 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote: And with parking meters charging, becoming bigger and also taking credit cards, I see a potential future in the merging of the two. At least in the US, it is normal for electric utilities to have made it illegal for others to resell their electricity. They set themselves up with a legal monopoly way back in the early days when the grid was first being established. (If you don't give us the exclusive rights to sell power, we won't your town on the electric grid. Sign here...) So you can't legally sell power at a charging station without the power company's blessing. But you CAN charge for a parking place that just happens to provide free electricity! -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords)
Except for the fact that much of the population lives in Apartments and high roise building and have neither option. Where I live it works fine. I built a car with 40 miles of range. I plug in at home and at work so every time I get in it it is fully charged. I drive 20 miles to work and it's full by lunch on 110Volts and full again by the time I go home. I have plans to double the capacity but only for emergency in case I need to go somewhere else in the middle of the day but so far it's worked great. From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (Retractible Cords) I think the solution will be much more boring than that. As battery capacity increases and charge time decreases, we'll simply see filling stations morph to charging stations. Status quo. I'm sure people will continue to charge at home if they're able. The rest will use filling stations. I see exactly the opposite happening. As the world wakes up to the fact that an EV can maintain more than 80 miles of range a day by simply plugging into a 120v outlet while parked at home and at work, the need for going anywhere to charge diminishes more and more over time. AND cars will have simple appliance like retractible 120v cords instead of this silly designed-by-committee j1772 abomination for L1 charging. (Sure J1772 is REQUIRED for L2, no questsion)... but it is silly when you then stick a 3 prong standard 120v plug on the other end for L1! Just put the EVSE (for L1) safety circuit IN THE CAR and have a very easy retractible pull-out 120v plug for when you park. See how I did it on a LEAF: http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html Going to a gas station makes sense when you only have to do it once a week or so. But no one will live with that inconvenience when they have to do it everyday like EV's require. And if one thinks people will buy bigger batteries just so they can go somewhere to a station to charge once a week and STAND THERE while waiting, one does not understand simple economics of time-or-money. Why pay THREE times as much for a 240 mile range when you only need 80. If you need 240, buy a plug-in hybrid. bob, WB4APR -- Original Message -- From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 24-Nov-14 7:10:54 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!) Ben Goren via EV wrote: I predict we'll see parking meters everywhere morph into charging stations This is certainly the logical way to do it. However, logic has little to do with politics and business. I also imagine there'll be much wringing of hands over figuring out what to charge for charging as opposed to parking... Ironically, every parking meter I've ever seen already charges *way* more per hour than the cost of the electricity you could get from an AC outlet on that meter. -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141125/ee0f7309/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] OT: status the newswires are changing, (L1 CORRECTION!)
Very rare? Like film and mechanical watches. No it's common and happens all the time and it's happening now Sent from my iPad On Nov 25, 2014, at 2:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: Most posts in this thread are vastly underestimating the immense inertia of the status quo... We are up against a hugely profitable industry. Do not think that these things will not happen. Amen! It is *very* rare for a new technology to be able to replace a deeply entrenched existing technology. To make it happen, the new tech has to be dramatically and obviously superior in virtually all ways. *And*, the existing status quo has to be so inept and dysfunctional that they get blindsided, and don't even see the new tech coming until it's too late to stop it. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
Both Bush and Obama have taked about clean coal think they even mentioned it in state of the union spaches. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars. Wow, that's an incredible improvement for coal plants. I haven't read much about coal genereation; what is this type of plant called and why aren't we hearing more about this? I'd prefer to see coal generation go away entirely but this type of plant seems much better than the standard. It certainly improves the emissions of EVs using coal generated electricty! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Danny Ames clean...@sbcglobal.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Sfeva sf...@yahoogroups.com Sent: 21-Dec-14 8:21:41 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars. As more coal plants are converted to 0% direct air pollution, then this will be no problem. We have one coal generating plant about 460 miles east of us that is in North Dakota. It has been converted to a 0% direct air pollution. There is no main stack that releases CO2 and/or other compounds in the air. Also there is no train and trucks that deliver the coal to the coal plant. The large mining equipment only uses electric power that comes from this coal plant. The coal is deliver by large electric drive conveyers that are miles long. The coal is deliver to a coal processor where it is reduce to a fine dust that is blown in from the bottom and at the top of the coal plant. As the coal combines together in the middle of the stack, it is ignited. The exhaust comes out of the side of the stack and goes down to generators that produce the electricity. The exhaust exits out of the generator that goes to processor plant to separate the compounds to be sold to manufacturers. The CO2 is deliver to the oil fields in North Dakota and Canada, where it is injected into the oil formations which increases the specific gravity of the oil to above 25% which it then can be pipe directly to oil refineries with out pre-processing to get it to the specific gravity that is needed to pump into a oil pipe line. We have one pipe line that comes from Canada that goes to Great Falls, Montana to a converted refinery that processes this oil. We sneak that one in before it got delay like the Tar Sand oil pipe line. Note, they do not pipe TAR SAND oil which is the asphalt base of this oil. It is pre-refine to get it to a certain specific gravity, so it can be pump into a pipe line and becomes the same specific gravity as the oils in the U.S. I use about 2.5 gallons of this oil products in my EV, which is 12 gts for the transmission, 6 gts for the differential, 5 qts for the hydraulic pumps for the power steering and power brakes. Then there is the greases for all the bearings. I get the electricity from the indirect power of the sun and gravity. Water rising from the oceans, falling back down through hydro dams of which we have five here in Great Falls. One has just been converted with power houses off the river instead of the standard dam type. Roland - Original Message - From: Danny Ames via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org ; Sfevamailto:sf...@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:36 AM Subject: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars. Report is titled: Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional andalternative light-duty transportation in theUnited States It seems the main stream press has taken this to task citing the PNAS report that EV's cars can pollute more than gas cars. Thus making the case for EVs more difficult to defend. What I'm not sure is the report did not take into consideration I believe is the amount of electricity to make the fuel. This single fact I think would significantly alter the report to favor EV cars over gas. Of course their many of other reasons to drive EV's over ICE gas cars. Some major news outlets and even my local news station KPIX TV started citing a new report http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitHhttp://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1view=FitH from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited here http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasolinehttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of
Re: [EVDL] 120240v (kit/assembled) battery charger? (Open source?)
Yes, a lot of horror stories on that and we found design flaws when we looked at it From: Rush Dougherty via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] 120240v (kit/assembled) battery charger? (Open source?) There are 277 pages to that thread I would check out the thread before committing to building it. Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rod Hower via EV Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:41 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] 120240v (kit/assembled) battery charger? (Open source?) Jay, I would check this one out, it meets all of your requirements http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/10kw-60a-diy-charger- open-source-59210.html they have kits and detailed info here, http://www.emotorwerks.com/tech/electronics On Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:18 AM, Jay Summet via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I'm looking to buy a kit (or an assembled) battery charger for a 120v lead acid system, with an eye to upgrading to a LiIon system in the future (also near 120-130 volts, limited by my controller/motor combo). Requirements: -Must support customizable charging curves that I can tweak between Lead Acid and LiIon or differing number of cells. -Must be able to auto-switch / auto-sense 120 vs 240 volt feeds. Most likely, this will mean it has a PFC front end. I specifically do NOT want to have to switch cables around. (Ideally it will be able to limit draw to 15/20 amps on 120 and 30/40 amps on 240...but I'm willing to toggle a menu option myself if needed for current limit.) -Needs to support a minimum of 2,500 watts of charging at 240 volts. I'd prefer 3.3k or 6.6k, but 2.5k is a minimum. I don't really need a super high powered charger, but would consider a higher power charger if the price was right. I have a NEMA-14-50 outlet, so max of around 40 amps at 240 volts or 9-10kW range. Features I'd like: -I'd like to keep the price low, and am very comfortable assembling a kit of parts. (But I want to be able to buy a complete kit, I don't want to have to source parts from all over...) -A BMS input to turn off charging (I don't want to fuss around with a separate AC relay...) -I'd prefer an open source solution over a closed source solution, but as long as I can manually tweak the battery charging curves and amp draw, I'd accept a black box that is cheap. -Ability to have sdcard, bluetooth or wifi access to charge data logging would be very nice, but is not needed. My maximum price point is around $2,000, and I'd really prefer to be closer to $1,000, so I'm willing to trade power for cost as long as it supports 2.5kW to 3.3kW charging... Suggestions/recommendations/reviews or things to stay away from? Thanks, Jay P.S. I currently have a 120 volt charger and a 240 volt charger that are both designed for lead acid, so I'll be saving some space by replacing them both, plus gaining flexibility for future upgrades. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20150129/0dec68d5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150129/2f5205c9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i-MiEV features, won 13 awards r:60mi
I own a 2012 iMiEV and I love it. It will go 62 miles in D and 80 in C. I never tried driving in B yet. I just had it a week. I bought it used with 6300 miles for $13,000 Sent from my iPhone On Mar 21, 2015, at 8:36 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: http://www.cartrade.com/blog/2015/greens/mitsubishi-i-miev-electic-car-1228.html Mitsubishi I-MiEV Electic Car March 14, 2015 by Eliza Lobo [image http://imagecdn2.cartrade.com/img/400/cars/generic/Mitsubishi-I-MiEV-Electic-Car.jpg Mitsubishi i-miev electic car ] Electric vehicles are snatching the attention of major automakers across the globe. They have zero emission level, and are more green and economical than the conventional vehicles. While many carmakes are, still, working on this technology, the Japanese automaker – Mistsubishi – launched its first electric vehicle in 2006. Mistsubishi I, also known as i-MiEV, was first unveiled at 2003 Frankfurt Motor Show and was launched in 2006 in the Asian, European and Oceania markets. The car won 13 awards for its technology, efficiency and design. It has unique ‘rear midship’ layout that aids to its cabin space and safety without increasing its overall size. The i-MiEV features halogen headlamps, color keyed side air dams, front and rear bumpers and door handles, alloy wheels, rear fog lamp, high mounted stop lamp and various other styling elements. It is available four exterior paint options – Amethyst Black, Frost White, Raspberry Red and Cool Silver. It’s well-packaged and very practical from inside. Features like leather wrapped gearshift knob, leather steering, needle punch floor carpet and silver chromed door handles enhance its interior appearance. Plastic quality, fit and finish are top-notch. Unlike other green cars, Mitsubishi’s electric car comes loaded with a plenty of safety features such as six airbags, anti-lock braking system (ABS) with electronic brake-force distribution (EBD), active stability control, traction control, brake assist, acoustic vehicle alerting system, 3-point x 2 seatbelt on both front and second row etc. The agile suspension setup (the front MacPherson strut, coil springs with stabilizer bar, pillow ball and rear three-link de Dion) absorbs bumps so well and offers comfortable a ride. With compact dimensions and small turning radius (9.0 m), it’s very easy to drive in city traffic. Powering the Mitsubishi I is a lithium ion battery pack and AC synchronous permanent magnet motor that delivers a maximum power of 49kW (66bhp) with a peak torque of 180Nm. The motor delivers power instantly from 0rpm to 2000rpm that makes it an easy going car. It runs smoothly beyond 2000rpm, too. A single-speed gearbox with a conventional differential offers optimal performance. The car has an electronic speed limit of 130kmph. The traction battery pack produces a maximum power of 330V or 16 kWh. It powers the electric motor, cabin heater and AC. For safety purpose, these batteries are coated with a strong protective casing and equipped with an electrical leakage detector and a cell monitoring device. The batteries can be charged up to 80% within 30 minutes. There are three driving modes – D (for city driving), B (increasing regenerative braking, while driving downhill) and C (reducing regenerative braking for smooth driving). The i-MiEV is one of the most fuel-efficient and easiest to drive Mitsubishi cars, but its way out expensive that turns off cost-conscious buyers. [© cartrade.com] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV Mitsubishi i-MiEV - Full production of the i-MiEV started in July 2009 and Mitsubishi ... in the following twelve months, once retail sales had started. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIEV ... http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/06/mitsubishi-begins-production-of-euro-spec-i-miev/ Mitsubishi begins production of Euro-spec i-MiEV Oct 6, 2010 - Euro-spec Mitsubishi i-MiEV Mitsubishi Motors began producing and selling the Japan-spec i-MiEV last year and though the vehicle is often ... http://myimiev.com/availability/ Availability | Mitsubishi I-Miev Forum – The Mitsubishi i-Miev has been for sale in Japan for quite some time now. ... Mass production of the European Mitsubishi i-MiEV began in October 2010 at ... ... http://www.autonet.ca/en/2015/03/18/quick-look---2016-mitsubishi-imiev Quick Look - 2016 Mitsubishi iMIEV Mar 18, 2015 - After being absent from Mitsubishi's lineup for model year 2015, the pure electric i-MIEV subcompact returns for 2016. Cars already are arriving at Canadian .. ... http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_pagenode=413529query=subject%3Aevln+subject%3A%28i-MiEV+OR+iMiev%29+NOT+subject%3Aredays=0sort=date Read more i-MiEV EVLN items on evdl For EVLN posts use: http://evdl.org/evln/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
It's worse than that. They should build them along interstates at current fueling stations. 90% of the current stations are unused because people charge at home. Who wants to sit at a charger with nothing to do? From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Yes, irrelevant in a way. But what's not irrelevant is our charging infrastructure. We're building out L3 charging which, I believe, will be too slow once 200+ mile range cars are out. We should be spending now on infrastructure that will be useful for the next 10 years, what we're doing now will be obsolete before the build out is finished. Tesla is doing a much better job but, of course, only available to Tesla owners. Peri -- Original Message -- From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:11:42 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Irrelevant until a person can actually purchase one. Till then it's pie in the sky. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/a97a9344/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Irrelevant until a person can actually purchase one. Till then it's pie in the sky. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Yep, pretty much agree with you. The details will probably come down to the amount of time to recharge. If you can travel for 4 hours and recharge in 10-15 minutes, I think it will be scarce to find discontented people. 4 hours at 65mph would be 260 mile range. Of course, unless you regularly make trips longer than 4 hours, taking a bit longer to charge shouldn't be such a big deal :) I think it's excitinig that we're getting close to 200 mile range cars at a LEAF price. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 06-Mar-15 8:59:29 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today’s mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/fed9be0b/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight
Sure they might exist but it's not economical to own that much battery for occasional use. People like that usually have multiple cars. We first must get past the adoption curve. Too much range anxiety among people with no EV experience. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 6, 2015 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight Isn't that a bit extreme? What about the many people who want to own only one car and normally drive 20 miles a day but once a week or so go out of town - to the mountains, to the beach, to the inlaws... They could rent but might prefer the convenience of having their own vehicle ready to go. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; brucedp5 bruce...@operamail.com Sent: 06-Mar-15 9:50:03 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight It is ludicrous for someone to be paying for a 200 mile battery when all she needs is 80. As with everything else, there needs to be a variety. The smart EV shopper buys the -smallest- battery that meets her daily need. Paying for a 200 mile battery is like commuting 10 miles a day and dropping off the kids in a hummer. Bob, WB4APR -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Friday, March 06, 2015 11:59 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: BASF sez 1k+mi NiMH EV Pack 700Wh/kg, lighter-weight On Mar 6, 2015, at 2:19 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: [T]he kind of developments being researched by BASF could very well pave the way to cars that could travel more than 1,000 miles on a battery pack the same size as the ones in today's mid-priced electric cars. I'm sure we'll never see significant numbers of thousand-mile-range cars on the market. That's almost twelve hours at 85 MPH, and over eighteen hours at 55 MPH. What we'd see long before then would be cars with half as much battery. Never mind the savings in money; the space and weight could be put to better use. Or, if a battery of that much capacity winds up in a vehicle, the vehicle will be something like the Hummer: hugely oversized and inefficient, but still with a 500-mile range due to twice the batteries. It looks like a 200-mile range seems to be the point where Joe Sixpack stops having crippling amounts of range anxiety (whether justified or not), and we're transitioning to that being not untypical. Tesla's had that for a while and all the rumors are about the next vehicles from various major manufacturers meeting that spec. I'd expect most cars to eventually settle on a 250 - 350 mile range, no matter what happens to battery capacity. There might be some premium models with a 500+ mile range for bragging / non-stop cross-country touring (65 MPH * 8 hours = 520 miles), but never a 1000 mile range. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/7fb6c0 d0/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150306/077cfc64/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Insurance Woes
Does Utah allow you to put up a bond? Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2015, at 12:37 PM, Bill Dennis via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I got rid of my Geo Metro EV and purchased a 1974 Saab Sonett that was originaly converted to electric by Walter Kern, of Saab Quantum fame, back in the 1980's. I'm swapping the lead-acid batteries for lithium, plus updating some of the electronics. But my old insurance company, SafeCo, has declined to insure the Saab, even though they'd been insuring my Geo EV for 8 years. My insurance agent is unable to find anyone here in Utah that will insure it. I even called Haggerty myself, but they said they don't insure electric vehicles. So I need help. Can anyone point me in the right direction? All I really need is liability. Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Article: Electric cars could boost CO2 emissions in some provinces
All you need is one fact. Electricity is generated to make gasoline. It takes around 5 kW ours of electricity to refine 1 gallon of gasoline. An electric car can travel 10 to 20 miles on this amount of energy. Sent from my iPad On Mar 24, 2015, at 5:36 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I did not see the CO2 output of fossil fuel vehicles included. That would be a telling ommision since cars are only about 20% efficient. The coal plants can burn coal pretty cleanly, but from a CO2 point of view not so good, EVs are far more efficient. So which is better? 90% efficient for EVs versus 20% efficient for ICE. I don't know what the efficiency of the coal power - delivered is like, or what the efficiency of gas or diesel delivered would be. But those should be part of the discussion. CO2 is clean, though still problematic. Coal has all sorts of downside we usually ignore (I live in NC where we have coal ash issues). I declare the article to be a hack job. They should get a good science writer to handle it. On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:52 PM, SLPinfo.org via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not sure if the list has seen this story but I suspect there are flaws in the analysis. Not being an engineer and not having access to the calculations I can't tell for sure. Peter Flipsen Jr == Trying to go green by replacing your gas guzzler with an electric car? In some provinces, that may actually be worse for the environment, a University of Toronto researcher says. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/electric-cars-could-boost-co2-emissions-in-some-provinces-1.3007409 Sent via the CBC News Android App https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ca.cbc.mobile.android.cbcnewsandroidwebview -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150324/173e6d0f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150324/54330714/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 03/27/2015 12:50 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted down. When the charger shut off, it zeroed itself. After a few years driving my conversion with a TBS amp-hour counter, I was expecting something as straightforward in my Leaf. I don't know how modern factory EVs estimate the battery capacity but on the conversion, I felt the need to do the occasional capacity test. I would fully charge and balance and then pull it down until some cells started going low. I reported the tests here amid quite a bit of scepticism. My 260ah ThunderSky LFP cells started off giving me about 300ah. They smoothly declined over the years and are currently about 230ah. I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery. I was sorely disappointed. The conversion went about 50 k miles over about 7 years and suffered about 20% capacity loss from new (a bit more than 10% from advertised). While the Leaf lost 30+% in two years and 20k miles. Both batteries endured the horribly hot summer (about 100 days above 100 deg) that so damaged the Leaf battery. The ThunderSkys seemed una ffected. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2015, at 7:15 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 03/27/2015 06:53 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. If this is addressed to me. And if the question is how do you know your Leaf battery had lost 30+% of capacity My Leaf initially had 90+ miles of range down to zero remaining miles estimate and/or turtle. Near the end of my Leaf experience, I had the car towed twice when it failed to reach it's destination at range of a bit more than 60 miles. When the car was new, Steve Clunn and I ran it down to nothing to see how it behaved. We pulled it in the last hundred yards with a golf cart. The conclusion was: about 1 mile after turtle. Given that the crappy instrumentation failed to report estimated capacity, I had to infer capacity from range. Amusingly, I drove my imiev about 22 miles yesterday from a full charge. The estimated range was 41 miles. At the end of the trip, the estimated range was 43 miles. I don't know what happened. Normally, from a full charge, the estimated range starts at 60-70 miles. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Uber CEO sez will replace all of its drivers with Auton-EVs
Tesla says they can do it now From: Alan Arrison via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 8:44 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Uber CEO sez will replace all of its drivers with Auton-EVs The constant stream of news releases regarding self driving cars is pretty annoying. I'm sorry, I don't see it happening any time soon. It's just the latest tech buzzword and a way to make autos even more complicated and expensive. Talk about opening yourself up to huge liabilities I can see the all the lawyers licking their chops. Al On 2/27/2015 4:05 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenrosenbaum/2015/02/26/the-future-of-tv-is-mobile-and-not-the-way-you-think/ The Future Of TV Is Mobile, But Not The Way You Think 2/26/2015 Steven Rosenbaum ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150227/9173cabb/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: iMiev remains cheap EV champ [charging at work]
All the EVs I have seen go at least 50 miles Sent from my iPhone On Mar 4, 2015, at 3:21 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I have a 25 mile commute and with no charging station. I'm at 50 mile range round trip. [so] I am*not* a candidate for most EVs. ... if my company put a charging station or two up I would jump for it. Not really, A charging station or two would mean you would be fighting every day with the other EV drivers over who is blocking the station... and/or wasting a half hour a day going out and moving your car and then mid-day trying to find another parking space.. *every day* to share. So a charging station is the last thing you want from your employer if you can instead get him to let you plug into an existing 120v outlet or if he will spring for something, then a DOZEN 120v outlets ($15 a piece from Home Depot). Then you can park all day, pick up 40 miles range by quitting time and have plenty of range AND NO CHARGER ANXIETY or ANIMOSITY. Installing charging stations for employees makes practically zero ergonomic sense (beyond one for transients)... Now charging outlets or L1 cords is another matter. They are virtually going to be a NECESSITY at all large employers with a happy workforce... TERMINOLOGY MATTERS! Said another way, there will never be enough charging stations for people to just park at all day long! The cost is unsustainable at the growth rate EV's will eventually reach! See http://aprs.org/EV-charging-everywhere.html Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
This is from 2006 and yes they may have improved the electrolyte but it's best to foillow your battery manufacturers guidelines on this. The effect of temperature on the cell voltage and electrode potentials during charging at 5mA is similar to charging at high currents, lithium plating was observed in all the cases and it was aggravated by decreasing the temperature. In particular, the CC step vanishes as the temperature drops to −20 ◦C, where lithium plating occurs as soon as the charging starts and accompanies the whole charging period. This observation may be associated with these two factors: (1) graphite suffers from a high over-potential due to the decrease in ionic conductivity of electrolyte and the slowdown in kinetics of Li+ ion intercalation into graphite and (2) the plated lithium cannot fully re-intercalate into graphite before the end of charging. As the temperature is at 0 ◦C or above 0◦C, the charging time is dominated by the CC time, and the charging capacities achieve more than 31 mAh (97% versus the full capacity of 32 mAh). As the temperature drops to−10 ◦C, the total charging time remains almost unchanged, whereas the portion of the CV time is significantly increased. With respect to the increase of CV time, lithium plating is aggravated and the charging capacity accordingly is decreased from the full capacity (32 mAh) to 26 mAh. These results suggest that Li-ion batteries should not be charged below 0 ◦C. Study of the charging process of a LiCoO2-based Li-ion battery S.S. Zhang ∗, K. Xu, T.R. Jow U.S. Army Research Laboratory, AMSRD-ARL-SE-DC, Adelphi, MD 20783-1197, USA Received 30 January 2006; received in revised form 14 February 2006; accepted 15 February 2006 Available online 18 April 2006 From: Christopher Darilek via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, February 23, 2015 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I've heard this same thing but was not clear on how low of a rate. Does anyone know? Around C/10? Or lower? -ChrisChris' 1972 BMW 2002 | | | | | | | | | | | Chris' 1972 BMW 2002Owner Chris Darilek Location Austin, Texas US map Web WebPage Vehicle 1972 BMW 2002 Motor Advanced DC Series Wound DC Drivetrain 9 motor, standard ... | | | | View on evalbum.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Danpatgal danpat...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences I have seen some of the research on this - if you charge slowly you can avoid any plating. The issue is the electrolyte becomes vicious and the ions pile up on the SEI outside the cathode. What I saw said the problem was at -20C (-4F). But, I am not sure exactly what the cell construction was, and particularly the electrolyte composition. There are umpteen electrolyte recipes and they make a difference. One thin they do is use lower boiling point electrolytes to improve cold performance. If the cell is for a human implant you don't have to worry about it. Lot's of variety. I think you should heat the pack, and charge as slowly as you can just to be sure. Plating is really bad. Mike On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Reviving this thread as we're having another very cold stretch here in the Eastern US. My batteries (SE130 CALBs) are still going, but boy do they sag when it's cold like this. It's annoying. I've been charging when my BMS sensors (atop each cell) are over 0C, which they have generally remained over the past few weeks despite the cold (thankfully my garage generally stays above 0C). But, my follow-up question on all this is if the BMS measurement is good enough. For example, I guess there is resistive heat that gets generated upon charge/discharge/shunting that probably make the sensors read higher than the cells themselves. How much, I don't know. Does anybody have any thoughts, experience on this? We've gotten down to -20C with a HIGH today of only -10C ... yet I'm charging. I didn't really want to do it, but I was dragging so much on the road with low SOC%, I had to, or risk having to really limp home. - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Cold-Charging-Lithium-Experiences-tp4667675p4673895.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison
Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences
Well, to be exact all Lithium Ion batteries die for one reason. Loss of electrolyte. Plating is just a way to loose electrolyte. Without moving Li Ions the battery can't work. The Ions that move are in the electrolyte. From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2015 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cold Charging Lithium Experiences Bill, I think the issue is too fast a charge, for the temperature, and cell composition. Which is to say, for a given cell, we have little information worth paying attention to, that would be informative. I think the whole industry suffers from a lack of understanding due to inadequate testing methods. Then you throw in unwary marketing people, who may paste the same graph, table or specification into a webpage or brochure, imagining that it is simple - the same electrode composition must produce the same performance and limitations. When we say LiFePO4 we are only talking about the anode. We have a graphite cathode, but how it is formed makes a difference. The electrolyte package which we are never privy to is unknown and may as important as all the stuff we know about.. I do recall a brief discussion of this last year on this list where it came up. I quoted a professor here in the NCSU Freedm Center (where they have luminaries like the guy the inverted the IGBT, and have worked there on prototype lithium cells), he told me he didn't know anything about lithium plating. Was he talking about a specific chemistry? I didn't know enough then to question him. I have found literature detailing the process of plating so he either didn't know, wasn't talking, or meant something I wasn't expecting. I have a few papers on this which I will send you. They seem to support the idea that plating happens. Mike On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:50 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Does the data presented apply to Li-Fe-PO4 or only to Li-Ion metal oxide? I know that they have a distinctly different chemistry than metal oxide cells, and I know that they have different charging characteristics. It is likely they have different cold weather charging behavior as well. I looked up a few references on the web and you seem to be able to charge LiFePO4 cells down to -10 C quite normally with no caution mentioned about going to lower temperatures. An example is Powerstream Batteries http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm show in their specifications charge down to -40 C. The A123 cells spec sheet show a temperature range of 55 to -30 C. I don't see any reference to lithium plating out or anything drastic when I restrict my search to LiFePO4. ( I also ignored blogs and forums. I just looked up papers and manufacturer specs.) I think that cold weather effect may be restricted to lithium-ion metal oxide cells. That reflects my personal experience with a pack of LiFePO4 ThunderSky cells in freezing Colorado weather with outdoor storage. The vehicle took a few miles to warm up the pack, and range suffered a bit because of voltage sag due to cold weather, but that was about the extent of it. I think it is important to not group all Li-ion in the same basket. The LiFePO4 cells share a few of the characteristics with metal-oxide cells, but are quite distinct in many ways. Also, there are a great variety of metal oxide li-ion cells, which are distinct from each other. Bill Dube' snip -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/12b3e298/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150225/f84b63d4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
Because I said so is not proof Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2015, at 1:42 PM, jerry freedomev via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hi Paul and All,Since Bill has more experience successfully getting the most power with lithium batteries of more types than most anyone else in the world for decades now, he is the source from his experience. And thanks Bill, I hadn't known it was that low. I'd thought it was more like 110F at least. Many parking lots here in Fla are 50F+ above that. Jerry Dycus From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:18 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) You gave no source. So one is better than none. I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect performance. From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. The cell containment vessel can make a big difference in this temperature limit, however. Cylindrical cells can often hold significant pressure while prismatic and pouch cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is correct) without damage. They weren't rated that high, but they could withstand that temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). Keep in mind that the cells will age much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. They perform better, however, and you don't hold them that hot for very long. You must choose the compromise between total life-span and performance for the specific application, which is typical for most things in life. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Better check more than one source. Bill D. At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt that EnerDel and its customers have overlooked anything as basic as performance and life at ambient temperatures. It appears to me that Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by application and then misinterpreting the presented data. But whatever. They have millions of cells in the field and no complaints of which I am aware. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/e6911ad9/attachment.htm
Re: [EVDL] Leaf Voltage
Electrolyte breakdown occurs over 4.17 volts Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2015, at 8:42 PM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 1:16 PM, via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I’m finally getting the new pack together and it’s made up of Leaf cells. What voltage range should these cells have? I want to be conservative and make this new pack last a very long time. The LEAF charges them up to 4.10V on a 100% charge. You might see 4.12V maximum on a few cells, especially on the 2013+ LEAFs compared to the 2011-2012 LEAFs which seem to charge to a slightly lower voltage. The LEAF BMS will report this charge to be 95-96% or so. An 80% charge will charge the cells to around 4.02V. 50% charge is around 3.90V. You get the first low battery warning around 3.75V and the second warning around 3.68V. The car opens up the contactors around 3.30V, but you can probably take it down to 3.0V or so if you do it very gently. Some others have mentioned charging up to 4.2V, but I think that's too high since Nissan doesn't get close to that. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ~43% Of World's Electric Cars Bought In 2014 | CleanTechnica
I believe that to be the tip of the iceberg Sent from my iPhone On Apr 20, 2015, at 9:03 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I do believe this is what a tipping point looks like: http://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/19/43-of-worlds-electric-cars-bought-in-2014/ b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150420/11476e5a/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Leaf Voltage
4.17 comes from a Scientific paper. I am not home right now to attach a copy but when I get back Thursday I will Sent from my iPhone On Apr 21, 2015, at 4:23 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I think really knowing this about Li ion cells is critical. Anecdotal is not good enough, being wrong about the electrode chemistry is to be wrong about critical information. Knowing how to avoid 100% SOC is critical. A perfectly fine pack can be misused and its life ruined. On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 3:28 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net wrote: Electrolyte breakdown occurs over 4.17 volts I couldn't tell you exactly when electrolyte breakdown occurs on the LEAF cells, but I can pretty much guarantee that it will vary depending on things like temperature, voltage and the exact electrolyte chemistry. I would love to know where 4.17V comes from, exactly. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. Warren Buffet Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150421/f7aaac61/attachment.html ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2014-2015 Smart Fortwo EV Recall Replaces Bad Bolts
U.S. Media thrives on confusion.
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 30, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
wrote:
Hahahahaha,
from glancing at the subject line I was wondering:
Wow! did GM already have to recall their Bolt and why are they substituting
it with a Smart?
Then I realized that I was a bit confused by the Bolt EV name and it were
simply the fasteners
in the Smart that needed replacement...
BTW, this confusion would not happen in other countries, because USA is the
only country I know
Where Every Single Word In The Title Is Written With A Capital.
All other countries would write instead:
Smart Fortwo EV recall replaces bad bolts.
So, this avoids confusion between the generic fastener (bolt) and the GM EV
name (Bolt)
Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info
Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
-Original Message-
From: EV on behalf of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Thu 4/30/2015 3:02 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 2014-2015 Smart Fortwo EV Recall Replaces Bad Bolts
http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1097898_2014-2015-smart-fortwo-coupe-convertible-and-electric-recalled-to-replace-poorly-built-bolts
2014-2015 Smart Fortwo Coupe, Convertible, And Electric Recalled To Replace
Poorly Built Bolts
By Richard Read Apr 21, 2015
[image
http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-smart-fortwo-electric-drive_100499340_m.jpg
2015 Smart Fortwo Electric Drive
]
Mercedes-Benz USA is recalling 2014 and 2015 models of the Smart fortwo
microcar. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration,
those vehicles might've been built with poorly made bolts, which could cause
serious problems for owners.
The bolts were made by Fontana Luigi S.p.A in Italy and were used to attach
the fortwo's steering gear. NHTSA says that the bolts don't meet endurance
requirements, leaving them open to fractures and worse:
Should a vehicle have been manufactured containing the affected bolts,
these bolts might break during the lifetime of the vehicle if exposed to
high loads in combination with vibrations. Should one of the two bolts on
the cross member break, vehicle handling would be impacted, increasing the
risk of an accident.
Which is probably putting it mildly.
NHTSA says that drivers of cars with this problem may hear unusual noises
while the vehicle is in motion. They may also notice that the steering wheel
sits at a tilted position, and the ESP warning light may come on.
The recall affects the following models: ...
2014 Smart fortwo coupe electric
2014 Smart fortwo convertible electric
Compared to many recalls that we see, this one affects a fairly small number
of vehicles -- just 5,058 cars registered in the U.S. Whether that's because
of limited production dates or Smart's notoriously low American sales stats
is unknown. (Remember when Oprah tried to give away the fortwo? That was
fun.)
Mercedes-Benz USA hasn't yet told NHTSA when it plans to mail recall notices
to consumers. When it does, however, owners will be able to take their
vehicles to a dealership, where the steering gear mounting bolts will be
replaced.
If you own one of the affected vehicles and have questions, you're
encouraged to contact Smart customer service at 800-762-7887, or call NHTSA
at 888-327-4236 and ask about safety campaign #15V192000
[© thecarconnection.com]
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EVs help reduce driving stress
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Rolec 'Charge Your Car' launch home public charging package
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shorehotel.com using L3 EVSE w/ Energy Storage 50% less demand cost$
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A
Re: [EVDL] Inexpensive retiree-friendly EV?
I love mine as well. I let a friend drive who was trying to find a Leaf, two weeks later he drove up in an i-MiEV. Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2015, at 11:42 AM, Danpatgal via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Our iMiev has served us really well, and is much easier to get in and out of than a Leaf, which is probably a consideration for older people. Some people can't get past the looks, but once you get in and drive it, you appreciate the spartan (easy) interface, visibility (as compared to the Leaf), space inside, ease of parking, and good capability. And, used prices are now quite low because a lot of the lease deals made back in 2013 are coming due. Low mile 2012 iMiev's are listed anywhere from $7.5 to $10k. If you want to go for a new one, some people have found some amazing deals (one guy under $10k) after the federal and state tax credits - though finding new might be a little harder as Mitsubishi hasn't shipped a lot of 2014 or 2016 models. (Incidentally, I don't know of any teething pains on the iMiev; ther's been only minor recall work since we had it, I'm not aware of any heat related issues on the battery pack and I've heard of only a couple pack failures in the US.) You can see several people on the www.myimiev.com/forum/ has a lot of information including several threads on buying a used iMiev. Good luck! Dan - Dan Gallagher http://www.evalbum.com/3854 -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Inexpensive-retiree-friendly-EV-tp4675387p4675448.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: UK's 1000hp 1975 Electric Enfield (v)
I believe john walland does the quarter in less than ten in his electric Mazda.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 13, 2015, at 2:12 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote:
http://ecomento.com/2015/05/07/enfield-electric-1975-1000-horsepower-car/
Meet the 1000 horsepower 1975 Enfield electric (w/video)
May 7, 2015 |
[video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o6igJGsBoM
Flux Capacitor - 500+ hp Electric Enfield 8000 - 12.62 @ 101.65 mph
VeeDubRacing Apr 26, 2015
2015 Big Bang at Santa Pod Raceway
Jonny Smith in the Adrian Flux sponsored Flux Capacitor Electric Car. It is
a 1974 Enfield 8000 that ...
image
http://cdn.ecomento.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/1975-Enfield-electric-car-2.jpg
Enfield 8000 from the 1970s
]
Once upon a time, hot rodders talked about cubic inches and carburetors.
Today, they talk about volts, amps and kilowatt-hours. One such fellow is
Jonny Smith, a Brit who goes by the name CarPervert on Twitter.
Jonny was on the hunt for a tiny electric car from the 70’s called the
Enfield E8000 ECC. It came from the factory on the Isle of Wight with an 8
horsepower electric motor and a range of about 40 miles using a bank of
conventional lead/acid deep discharge batteries. He found the car he wanted
in Wales and set about converting it to a drag racer.
Smith was determined to make it into a 1000 horsepower 1975 Enfield. His
inspiration was John Wayland’s famous White Zombie – a lowly Datsun 1200
that was converted into a ferocious drag racer in Oregon. In an interesting
twist, that same car was also the inspiration for the Zombie 222 electric
Mustang we wrote about a few weeks ago.
Today, the car that started life as a modest electric runabout sports a
custom-built battery pack made up of 144 Kokam lithium-ion cells and
assembled by British firm Hyperdrive. The batteries are normally used to run
the starters and mini-guns in a Bell AH1 SuperCobra attack helicopter.
The batteries pack delivers 370 volts, 600 kilowatts, more than 2000 amps,
1003hp, and 1200 lb-ft of torque – all while weighing less than 360 lbs.
Those are the kind of numbers that bring tears to the eyes of modern day hot
rodders.
All that electricity goes to power two 9? Current Racing motors – modified
Netgain Warp 9? series wound direct current motors – which turn street legal
drag racing tires mounted on massive (for an Enfield) 14×7 Wolfrace mag
wheels harvested from a cast-off 1970 Pontiac TransAm.
Jonny Smith, aka CarPervert, named his micro-race Flux Capacitor, in honor
of the iconic DeLorean featured in the movie Back To The Future. During its
first race weekend, his team kept things turned down a bit. After all, 1003
horsepower in a car barely 8 feet long could be a bit scary. “I have to say
it felt shockingly good,” says Smith. “The twin 9? Current Racing motors
were strong, the coupling and 6? propshaft held, as did the Hyperdrive
battery pack, with its twinkling LED lit battery management system.”
Later in the weekend, the team turned up the wick and the car sprinted
through the quarter mile in 12.56 seconds at 101.43 mph. That’s faster than
the original 2010 Tesla Roadster. “Mid 12s makes it faster than any
road-going production EV bar Tesla’s P85D – which is my next benchmark to
beat,” Jonny said. “That means running 11s.”
Can the Flux Capacitor run more than a second quicker? Look at it this way:
The Enfield now weighs under 2000 lbs; the Tesla is around 5000 lbs. The
Enfield has 1003 horsepower; the Tesla about 700. So far, the Flux Capacitor
has been running only 70% of its maximum power. What do you think will
happen when all of its full potential is unleashed?
[© ecomento.com]
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billnye.com praises Powerwall wants wrist-device-called driverless-
etaxi-cities cleaner,quieter,nil-wrecks
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/news/local/energy-expert-2030-cars-will-be-self-driving-elect/nmFX2/
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Automakers Shift Plugins Towards 6kw Onboard Chargers
http://www.gizmag.com/electric-motorcycles-scooters-government-subsidy-uk/37309/
UK government to subsidize electric two-wheelers
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EV-driving street-cleaner Xu-Yifeng killed by drunk-ice-driver @4:25a
http://english.eastday.com/auto/eastday/metro/u1ai8487340.html
http://www.sequimgazette.com/business/301725931.html
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EVLN: SWIFT rolls out Belgium's largest BMW i3-rex pih fleet
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Nabble.com.
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
GM seems to disagree with you. Farah says that in his mind the Volt is unequivocally an electric car. The Volt is an electric vehicle...because for the first 40 miles you can get full performance running on nothing but an electric motor until the battery is depleted, he said. The Volt has three distinct motive forces in it: a large electric motor, a small electric motor/generator, and a 1.4 liter engine. Up to two of those three forces can be combined in select ways through the Volt's secret sauce drive unit—given the road demands and state of charge of the battery—to drive the vehicle. Only the large electric motor is capable of moving the car forward on its own. The small electric motor/generator and the gas engine can only ever be combined with one of the other motive forces to drive the wheels. Even when the gas engine is on and partially driving the wheels, it cannot operate without electricity flowing to one of the other motors. The gas engine, under most conditions, will be used to drive the generator and produce electricity, and will not be used to drive the wheels. There is no direct mechanical linkage between the Volt's gas engine and the wheels, rather there is an indirect linkage that is accomplished by meshing the power output of the engine with the power output of one of the other two electric motors. http://www.plugincars.com/exclusive-chevrolet-volt-chief-engineer-explains-volt-drivetrain-says-volt-electric-vehicle-90758.ht Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 6:59 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: The electronics only register cell electricity usage in the kWh field and gas use in the other field. I agree though that any use of gas when measuring range could be slightly incorrect as the Volt/Ampera REX is a generator only and starts and stops regularly if driving slowly to ensure that it doesn't put any gas generated power into the cells. The software engineers try extremely hard to only generate energy for the road when the cells are considered empty but are actually topped up and emptied in a continuous process. If you check earlier posts you will note that many display electricity only use and are often over 50 miles. BTW, these cars were so ahead of their time and are still probably the only PHEV's that are pure electric with gas mode only used when the cells are empty or Hold/Mountain mode is selected. They have huge power off the line and will happily reach and cruise at 100mph (not on a public road) using battery only. It is later hybrids like the Outlander that seem to need gas mode to assist the electric motor. From: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net To: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Thursday, 14 May 2015, 12:41 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. I think you all are mistaken. You are using gas. Maybe not much .3 of a gallon like the guy said in the forum but then it doesn't take much gas to go 15 miles. Those cars go into gas mode if you go over 45 miles an hour I believe Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 3:39 AM, Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Paul, I never wished this to start an argument as we are all I hope avid EVers. My post was simply to show that a well designed drive train is capable of high mileages even when tugging around a heavy body and I totally agree with other posts that removing weight and lowering the CD will inevitably reduce the need for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine
Re: [EVDL] Fw: Supercharging is not the way.
for higher capacity battery packs. The Volt/Ampera has a 16kWh pack but only allows around 10.4kWh to be used for longevity and many are covering over 150,000 miles with little or no capacity loss as I believe the loss is above the allowed amount. As for proving the range, yes you need to drive steadily but it is an art many EVers develop naturally and this forum link https://speakev.com/threads/50-mile-club.304/page-11 will show that it is exceeded regularly. What has surprised me is that my Volt/Ampera exceeds the range efficiency of my Lotus Elise EV which only weighs a tonne although is using an older drive train which uses the original gearbox fixed in third.. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 22:37 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/c7e019f9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
I'm speaking of normal driving. Besides, I live in the country and most roads are 55 MPH anyway. If I drive in town at 40 it goes much further but that goes without saying. From: Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Yes, needs a gentle foot but often achieved. Checkout SpeakEV forum in the Volt/Ampera section.I've achieved 48 miles which includes city driving. From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 17:13 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Are you sure about that number? That would be equivalent to the Leaf regularly getting about 120 miles on a charge. Probably possible on a flat road, no stops, at 40mph but not possible for regular driving. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Russ Sciville via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 13-May-15 9:05:34 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 16:59 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement. It's time to stop the madness. As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs. 85KW! Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when there are vehicles that can go further on less energy why not use efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal. Stella the electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight. Using the solar panels it can go further and faster. Engineers seem to forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the charging time. If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen just by size requiring less than MW consumption. Think of a ten stall quick charging station. That might require 10mw when fully deployed. Then look at Stella at a Chademo site. About 20 minutes to 80 percent. With those new batteries I cou ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of electricity. So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop making these energy hogs. Efficiency not Mega Watts. Lawrence RhodesStella Solar Powered Car | | | | | | | | | | | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the Stella, the first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow from TechCrunch TV | | | | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/0855d981/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/2036c6be/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/25ae2eae/attachment-0001
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
No they don't. 30 to 35 miles on battery. You would have to prove that, Of course the i-MiEV will go further if you drive 40 MPH. I was speaking of normal driving. From: Russ Sciville rustyb...@yahoo.co.uk To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. Volt/Ampera's regularly do more than 50 miles on their 10.4kWh battery packs and that includes dragging round a backup four cylinder engine in a steel chassis. From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, 13 May 2015, 16:59 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way. The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement. It's time to stop the madness. As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs. 85KW! Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when there are vehicles that can go further on less energy why not use efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal. Stella the electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight. Using the solar panels it can go further and faster. Engineers seem to forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the charging time. If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen just by size requiring less than MW consumption. Think of a ten stall quick charging station. That might require 10mw when fully deployed. Then look at Stella at a Chademo site. About 20 minutes to 80 percent. With those new batteries I cou ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of electricity. So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop making these energy hogs. Efficiency not Mega Watts. Lawrence RhodesStella Solar Powered Car | | | | | | | | | | | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the Stella, the first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow from TechCrunch TV | | | | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/0855d981/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/73de1dc1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
I would think they would run power beside or under the road and run inductively Sent from my iPhone On May 14, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On May 14, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: dump pack Thinking this through a bit more...I'm not sure that it would make sense for a rapid-charging station to operate without a substantial dump pack of its own. Without one, you're left needing a grid connection able to meet your peak demand, which will be truly insane. Imagine a not-too-distant future where luxury EVs come with 100 kWh packs that people expect to charge in ten minutes; that's over half a megawatt. Now imagine a convoy of such traveling together on a road trip, all of them simultaneously pulling up to each of the 36 slots in the station. No way is that station going to have a 20 MW feed from the grid...that's about 5% - 20% of the output of a utility-scale generating unit. And even the utilities themselves would have problems running such a facility because of the sharply peaking nature of the load. But if, on average over the course of a day including times when all slots are empty, the station only sees one or two stalls in use at a time...well, a megawatt utility connection is still pretty freakin' huge -- 1 kV @ 1 kA, or however you want to balance the two -- but much more manageable. You'd keep a constant rate (or, perhaps, varying per utility feedback but averaged to a constant) of charge going into your massive dump pack, and each of the slots would feed from the dump pack, rapidly depleting it for just a short period of time as the grid constantly trickle-fills it back up again. Again...the scale of such operations pretty much demands that they be insanely expensive, especially compared against a 110V / 15A overnight charge that'll more than satisfy almost all of almost everybody's needs once vehicles can reliably get over 200 miles on a full charge. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150514/b3cbd469/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs
Peri, The Federal Credit is only for new vehicles. QualifiedPlug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Tax CreditA tax credit isavailable for the purchase of a new qualified plug-in electric drive motorvehicle that draws propulsion using a traction battery that has at least fivekilowatt hours (kWh) of capacity, uses an external source of energy to rechargethe battery, has a gross vehicle weight rating of up to 14,000 pounds, andmeets specified emission standards. The minimum credit amount is $2,500, andthe credit may be up to $7,500, based on each vehicle's traction batterycapacity and the gross vehicle weight rating. The credit will begin to bephased out for each manufacturer in the second quarter following the calendarquarter in which a minimum of 200,000 qualified plug-in electric drive vehicleshave been sold by that manufacturer for use in the United States. This taxcredit applies to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. For moreinformation, including qualifying vehicles, see the Internal Revenue Service(IRS) Plug-In Electric Vehicle Credit website. Alsorefer to IRS Form 8936, which is available via the IRS Forms and Publications website.(Reference Public Law 112-240, Section 403; and 26 U.S. Code30D) Point of Contact U.S. Internal Revenue Service Phone: (800) 829-1040 http://www.irs.gov/ From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs Does anyone know if the federal credit can be applied to a used EV provided that the credit hasn't already been applied to that EV? Peri -- Original Message -- From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 12:41:11 AM Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too By John Voelcker May 13, 2015 [images http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg 2015 Nissan Leaf http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from SolarDave blog ] The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives and fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders. And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record. But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by any other state, as far as we can determine. That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not just to new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously been claimed. That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside Colorado. That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a credit for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle. According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain anonymous, a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the program. That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to California to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase rebate. Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado, register it as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's tax return. That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy Efficiency Project (SWEEP). On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have instituted a special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the gasoline taxes they don't pay. But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year. Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other infrastructure. At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state was one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla Motors from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state. That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we published in October 2012. If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to get more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do exactly that. A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes for the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs
Peri, The Federal Credit is only for new vehicles. QualifiedPlug-In Electric Drive Motor Vehicle Tax CreditA tax credit isavailable for the purchase of a new qualified plug-in electric drive motorvehicle that draws propulsion using a traction battery that has at least fivekilowatt hours (kWh) of capacity, uses an external source of energy to rechargethe battery, has a gross vehicle weight rating of up to 14,000 pounds, andmeets specified emission standards. The minimum credit amount is $2,500, andthe credit may be up to $7,500, based on each vehicle's traction batterycapacity and the gross vehicle weight rating. The credit will begin to bephased out for each manufacturer in the second quarter following the calendarquarter in which a minimum of 200,000 qualified plug-in electric drive vehicleshave been sold by that manufacturer for use in the United States. This taxcredit applies to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2009. For moreinformation, including qualifying vehicles, see the Internal Revenue Service(IRS) Plug-In Electric Vehicle Credit website. Alsorefer to IRS Form 8936, which is available via the IRS Forms and Publications website.(Reference Public Law 112-240, Section 403; and 26 U.S. Code30D) Point of Contact U.S. Internal Revenue Service Phone: (800) 829-1040 http://www.irs.gov/ From: Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs Does anyone know if the federal credit can be applied to a used EV provided that the credit hasn't already been applied to that EV? Peri -- Original Message -- From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 18-May-15 12:41:11 AM Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CO's Credit Applies 2Used Outside-State Purchased EVs http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1098277_colorados-electric-car-credit-applies-to-used-cars-too Colorado's Electric-Car Credit: Applies To Used Cars Too By John Voelcker May 13, 2015 [images http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/2015-nissan-leaf_100473864_m.jpg 2015 Nissan Leaf http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/tesla-roadster-recharging-at-denver-international-airport-from-solardave-blog_100305292_m.jpg Tesla Roadster recharging at Denver International Airport, from SolarDave blog ] The checkerboard pattern of constantly changing electric-car incentives and fees among the 50 American states often baffles outsiders. And as states go, Colorado has a mixed record. But its electric-car incentive turns out to have a quirk not shared by any other state, as far as we can determine. That is the eligibility of its electric-car purchase tax credit not just to new cars, but also to used cars on which the credit hasn't previously been claimed. That largely applies to electric cars imported from other outside Colorado. That state's electric-car purchase tax credit lets taxpayers claim a credit for 75 percent of the premium over a comparable gasoline car, up to a maximum of $6,000, for purchasing a battery-electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle. According to a Colorado electric-car advocate who asked to remain anonymous, a Colorado resident can claim that credit on any electric car whose Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) hasn't previously been submitted to the program. That means that, in theory, a Colorado resident could travel to California to buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that had been registered there for three years--the time required to claim that state's electric-car purchase rebate. Our source says that the buyer could then truck it to Colorado, register it as a used car, and legally claim that state's tax credit on the year's tax return. That quirk aside, two years ago, Colorado was rated the most electric car-friendly of six Southwestern states studied by the Southwest Energy Efficiency Project (SWEEP). On the other hand, Colorado is one of several states that have instituted a special registration fee on electric cars to compensate for the gasoline taxes they don't pay. But in Colorado, it's among the lowest, at just $50 per year. Better yet, $20 of each car's annual fee goes to the state's Electric Vehicle Grant Fund, which pays for public charging stations and other infrastructure. At the behest of the Colorado Automobile Dealers Association, the state was one of the earliest to change its franchise laws to prohibit Tesla Motors from opening additional Tesla Stores within the state. That took place back in March 2010, as the association's president Tim Jackson proudly related to Green Car Reports during an interview we published in October 2012. If the goal of incentives that encourage electric-car purchases is to get more of the cars on the road, then presumably the Colorado law will do exactly that. A used electric car imported from another state presumably substitutes for the gasoline car that would otherwise have been purchased
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
I think you are wrong. The rule of thumb is weight / 10. For your car 2260/10=226 Wh/m You claim 216 so this fits. Tesla weighs 4700 lbs so it should use 470 Wh/m but it's between 325 and 375 Wh/m for most people. That comes to a 20% increase in efficiency over your car. From: tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses At over 4700 lb Tesla is hardly the benchmark for efficiency. My 2260 lb ev 5 1/2 year average energy use is 216 Wh/mile from the wall, with about 50% travel on highways at 55 - 65 mph. Charger efficiency, measured several times, is 0.91, so that's about 197 Wh/mile or 5.1 miles/kWh excluding charger losses. What I've read also says that hub wheels are a problem for higher speed vehicles due to unsprung weight, but I've no experience with them. A range of 186 miles for my vehicle would require about a 46 kWh pack, assuming 20% DoD, and not too much increase in vehicle weight due to this larger pack size - so higher specific energy cells than the 103 kWh/kg it presently has. This vehicle is supposed to be lighter than mine, but still likely will need significantly larger than 24kWh pack for 186 miles. I expect like others gone before it will not be completed, but there is always some hope. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Open-Source-Street-Legal-affordable-long-range-EV-4the-masses-tp4675590p4675605.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/85d49f11/attachment-0001.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses
When I built mine I did a spread sheet. It's all weight until you get up to highway speeds in excess of 65 miles per hour on my 86 Celica. From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: paul dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Open Source Street-Legal affordable long-range EV4the masses On May 18, 2015, at 10:02 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The rule of thumb is weight / 10. Oooh -- that's a very useful suggestion. How much does aerodynamics change that? In particular, I'm thinking of a 1964 1/2 Mustang with, I think, roughly a 0.5 cd. Final weight, though, should be roughly 3,000 pounds, maybe a bit over. And...a 1968 VW Westfalia Campmobile, probably 4,000+ pounds and (literally!) the aerodynamics of a shoebox. I've been figuring that better than 500 Wh / mile would be gravy for either. Not that I'm expecting such low numbers, especially for the Mustang; just that, if that's what I use, there'll be plenty of Murphy factor such that my surprise at the real-world performance will be pleasant. (And, those who don't know: I'm looking at a PHEV through-the-ground conversion for both, retaining the RWD ICE drivetrain and adapting a FWD axle with the electric motor connected only to that.) b -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150518/9b756599/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Supercharging is not the way.
The I-MiEV already is energy efficient. It travels 60 miles on a 16kw battery and charges in 30 min on chase mo. Sent from my iPhone On May 13, 2015, at 10:37 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I've now heard all the talk about 5 minute quick charging batteries and the 1 megawatt per car requirement. It's time to stop the madness. As much as I love Tesla all their models are big energy pigs. 85KW! Yes much better than a gas car of any size but when there are vehicles that can go further on less energy why not use efficiency and not sheer battery size to attain your goal. Stella the electric car that won the Cruiser Class of the World Solar Challenge has a 16kw pack that can take the car 375 miles with no sunlight. Using the solar panels it can go further and faster. Engineers seem to forget that it's not the range that hurts electric cars but the charging time. If you reduce the pack size charging times will lessen just by size requiring less than MW consumption. Think of a ten stall quick charging station. That might require 10mw when fully deployed. Then look at Stella at a Chademo site. About 20 minutes to 80 percent. With those new batteries I cou ldn't tell you but very quick and it wouldn't need mega watt levels of electricity. So I think the engineers need to put their thinking caps on, reduce the weight of every vehicle, make the CD of all new vehicles .16 or so and stop making these energy hogs. Efficiency not Mega Watts.Lawrence RhodesStella Solar Powered Car | | | | | | | | | | | Stella Solar Powered CarSarah Buhr goes for a ride in the the Stella, the first four seater solar powered car. on the TCTV Newsshow from TechCrunch TV | | | | View on techcrunch.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150513/0855d981/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
You mean Diebold? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yeah, Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and automatically vote for them in elections. If they will trust their lives going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who work for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't fail), why wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them? After all...what could go wrong? Am I missing something? From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/c4b4c2e5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/bfa1b9f5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] self driving cars
Now that's funny. I don't care who you are. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Lawrence Winiarski lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com wrote: Maybe this will work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yE3_Vw144 From: Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] self driving cars You mean Diebold? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yeah, Maybe these same people would accept some sort of artificial intelligence program which would analyse their facebook postingsand social media and automatically vote for them in elections.If they will trust their lives going 70 mph to some computer algorithm by some nameless programmers who work for some corporation (who can't even make a web browser that doesn't fail), why wouldn't they trust a corporation to automatically vote for them? After all...what could go wrong? Am I missing something? From: Electric Blue auto convertions via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 11:09 AM Subject: [EVDL] self driving cars The day Im forced to get into a self driving car is when I take my shot gun and blow it away . the very thought if a SDC makes me vomit -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/c4b4c2e5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/bfa1b9f5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150407/8b5f1ae7/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes
There is always a market for quality and Tesla will do fine as long as they build the best product on the Market. From: tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2015 10:10 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Tesla Factor: Elon Musk Will Force Auto Industry To Roll Out Self-Driving Cars Sooner Than You Think - Forbes I think the article is rubbish. As far as seeing that Tesla was addressing a small market with the S...well duh, but they have ameliorated that effect somewhat by selling globally. No other company is pushing a product competitive with the S yet, but it looks like that may change in a year or two. I think Tesla's survival depends on their ability to lower costs and develop competitive products in a wider market, which means lower priced products. That largely means competing with the existing car manufacturers on their own turf, tough going. Or, they just shrink and become a supplier of niche vehicles in the future, not what Elon has in mind with the gigafactory. One factor the article doesn't mention is psychological, how well accepted that new technology will be by the majority of Americans. I'm guessing it will be a niche market too, mainly the tech savvy, and will take quite a few years to become more widely accepted, so best for Tesla's success not to hinge on that. Don't know if this is the actual case, but I think it would be easy for the management at Tesla to develop group think, forgetting that most U.S. citizens don't live in silicon valley and work in high tech, and overestimating the appeal and acceptance of such features as self-driving as a result. Know your market. The vehicle market is shrinking with the increasing polarization of wealth in the U.S.. Many cannot afford to purchase a new vehicle, so maybe you mainly have to target those in the upper quintile or so income bracket. There will be a furious fight for market share in that smaller market in the future. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-Tesla-Factor-Elon-Musk-Will-Force-Auto-Industry-To-Roll-Out-Self-Driving-Cars-Sooner-Than-You-Ths-tp4674777p4674791.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150406/277160e2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
Where do you get your information. LiFePO4 if good even at 140F. http://ecst.ecsdl.org/content/3/36/3.full.pdf From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Jeff Major jff_...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt that EnerDel and its customers have overlooked anything as basic as performance and life at ambient temperatures. It appears to me that Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by application and then misinterpreting the presented data. But whatever. They have millions of cells in the field and no complaints of which I am aware. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/e6911ad9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/dc67ff6e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/eb5c73f3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
You gave no source. So one is better than none. I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect performance. From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. The cell containment vessel can make a big difference in this temperature limit, however. Cylindrical cells can often hold significant pressure while prismatic and pouch cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is correct) without damage. They weren't rated that high, but they could withstand that temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). Keep in mind that the cells will age much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. They perform better, however, and you don't hold them that hot for very long. You must choose the compromise between total life-span and performance for the specific application, which is typical for most things in life. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Better check more than one source. Bill D. At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt that EnerDel and its customers have overlooked anything as basic as performance and life at ambient temperatures. It appears to me that Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by application and then misinterpreting the presented data. But whatever. They have millions of cells in the field and no complaints of which I am aware. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/e6911ad9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/dc67ff6e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
That is the opposite of what you said before 70 degrees C is well over 104 degrees F From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) Here you go: http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Polymer/Lithium_polymer_tech.html and here is a good chart: http://www.mdpi.com/energies/energies-07-05675/article_deploy/html/images/energies-07-05675-g005-1024.png It is very common knowledge that warmer cells perform better than cooler cells for most battery chemistries. Chemical diffusion is more rapid at higher temperatures and allow the battery to deliver more power. What the battery can withstand without damage, and what particular elevated temperature is optimal is a matter of testing on the particular cell. In the Formula One kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) they operate their LiFePO4 cells continuously at greater than 70 Celsius. They get well over 20,000 w/kg at that temperature. (Your car battery gets about 300 w/kg to give you a frame of reference.) I have had a little bit of experience in squeezing maximum HP out of batteries over the years. :-) Bill D. At 12:18 PM 4/1/2015, paul dove wrote: You gave no source. So one is better than none. I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect performance. From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. The cell containment vessel can make a big difference in this temperature limit, however. Cylindrical cells can often hold significant pressure while prismatic and pouch cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is correct) without damage. They weren't rated that high, but they could withstand that temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). Keep in mind that the cells will age much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. They perform better, however, and you don't hold them that hot for very long. You must choose the compromise between total life-span and performance for the specific application, which is typical for most things in life. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Better check more than one source. Bill D. At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt that EnerDel and its customers have overlooked anything as basic as performance and life at ambient temperatures. It appears to me that Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by application and then misinterpreting the presented data. But whatever. They have millions of cells in the field and no complaints of which I am aware.
Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
I'm the one that originally posted that video and he doesn't make any such claim in it. From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. Hi Bill, With all due respect this is not the failure I have been alluding to. It is the reaction that occurs when a fully delithiated anode at elevated temperature starts tearing up the electrolyte. According to the fellows at Dalhousie this what kills cells that otherwise are capable of decent life. In other words disregarding deficiencies in design that cause failure, concentrating on what happens to the basic constituents of the cells. A good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs This will also elaborate on the very great variety of electrolytes that are used. The same type of electrolytes are NOT used in all Li ion chemistries. They ARE mostly organic carbonates, so what you said is true in a very basic sense, but there is a lot of blending and additive use that is important, particularly for cycle life. This is relatively new information that is only realized with HPC testing. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. The cell containment vessel can make a big difference in this temperature limit, however. Cylindrical cells can often hold significant pressure while prismatic and pouch cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is correct) without damage. They weren't rated that high, but they could withstand that temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). Keep in mind that the cells will age much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. They perform better, however, and you don't hold them that hot for very long. You must choose the compromise between total life-span and performance for the specific application, which is typical for most things in life. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Better check more than one source. Bill D. At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt that EnerDel and its customers have overlooked anything as basic as performance and life at ambient temperatures. It appears to me that Hoegberg is comparing to some float stand-by application and then misinterpreting the presented data. But whatever. They have millions of cells in the field and no complaints of which I am aware. -- next part -- An HTML attachment
Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences)
Oh, sorry Bill maybe I got confused who I was replying to. From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Bill Dube billd...@killacycle.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) That is the opposite of what you said before 70 degrees C is well over 104 degrees F From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) Here you go: http://www.ibt-power.com/Battery_packs/Li_Polymer/Lithium_polymer_tech.html and here is a good chart: http://www.mdpi.com/energies/energies-07-05675/article_deploy/html/images/energies-07-05675-g005-1024.png It is very common knowledge that warmer cells perform better than cooler cells for most battery chemistries. Chemical diffusion is more rapid at higher temperatures and allow the battery to deliver more power. What the battery can withstand without damage, and what particular elevated temperature is optimal is a matter of testing on the particular cell. In the Formula One kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) they operate their LiFePO4 cells continuously at greater than 70 Celsius. They get well over 20,000 w/kg at that temperature. (Your car battery gets about 300 w/kg to give you a frame of reference.) I have had a little bit of experience in squeezing maximum HP out of batteries over the years. :-) Bill D. At 12:18 PM 4/1/2015, paul dove wrote: You gave no source. So one is better than none. I've never heard or seen any paper that claims 104F will affect performance. From: Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 1:13 PM Subject: [EVDL] Temperature rating (Was: ENERDEL Battery Experiences) The 104 F (40 C) limit applies somewhat equally to all Li-ion chemistries. The temperature is limited because the electrolyte boils just slightly above that temperature. Same type of electrolyte in all Li-ion chemistries thus the same limit. The cell containment vessel can make a big difference in this temperature limit, however. Cylindrical cells can often hold significant pressure while prismatic and pouch cells can withstand less or perhaps no pressure. Life a pressure cooker, the higher the pressure of the electrolyte, the higher temperature you can withstand. The A123 26650M1 cells (LiFePO4) would withstand up to 100 Celsius (yes that is correct) without damage. They weren't rated that high, but they could withstand that temperature. They were rated for 60 Celsius (140 F). Keep in mind that the cells will age much more rapidly at that elevated temperature. They perform better, however, and you don't hold them that hot for very long. You must choose the compromise between total life-span and performance for the specific application, which is typical for most things in life. I'm not sure where you are getting your information. Better check more than one source. Bill D. At 10:42 AM 4/1/2015, you wrote: Jeff, I am not sure why performance at ambient temperatures should make anyone feel confident about a cell. LFP for instance, starts to have serious difficulties at 104°F if it is fully charged. That is certainly ambient here in North Carolina; and that is free air, not boxed up with significant amperage scooting about. I must tell you, I don't have an axe to grind here. I simply want to point out a better way to go. That is to get better information for all. And better testing with in the industry. ENERDEL just popped up on my radar is all. They have an website that is light on good information and I waded in. I am happy to see that behind the curtain they may have more on the ball. I have been scanning the course work you provided to me, and it is very nice. When ENERDEL discusses cycle life (around page 279) I can see they clearly understand the reactivity of the positive electrode at very high SOC and how temperature makes that much worse for the electrolyte. They clearly have good information to work with and probably are engaged with Dalhousie University or the spin off Novonix to get good testing done. I am duly impressed. I still have not figured out what chemistry they have chosen. From what I have seen so far, they speak assiduously, only in general terms regarding their own cells. If they are using some inferior chemistry and electrolyte package it is clearly not because they don't know better, so I bet they are OK. Provisional blessing on them until I am better educated. Thanks for taking the time to address this with me. Mike On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:19 AM, Jeff Major via EV mailto:ev@lists.evdl.orgev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I doubt
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
How trite! Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable. Prior to now they were of limited value.I drive mine every day. Only time I don't drive it is when I use my truck to haul something or take the Corvette for a pleasure drive. From: len moskowitz via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:20 AM Subject: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/02e165f6/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
Well I am sorry he got annoyed and left but I still disagree. All we are seeing is the adoption curve. Any new technology takes time to be mass accepted. Before the lithium battery electric vehicles were a novelty. Now they are here to stay. Sent from my iPhone On May 20, 2015, at 1:45 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 19 May 2015 at 22:52, jerry freedomev via EV wrote: Hi Arak and all, Well you did say that since EV's didn't fit 30% of the population needs it wasn't good on an EV list kind of should expect blowback. Well said Jerry, but Arak isn't listening. Thus challenged, he got indignant and unsubscribed. :-( Let us not forget the immortal Fidonet Principles: Thou shalt not be too annoying. Thou shalt not be too easily annoyed. I'm sympathetic with some of his points, though. Most of us here don't think EVs have to manage all the missions and trips that ICEVs can, but we're not normal vehicle buyers. The average person is not going to pay an ICEV price for a car that does less and covers fewer of his transporation needs than an ICEV does. That's just normal, rational consumer behavior. To really take off, EVs that look and cost like ICEVs have to work like ICEVs. EVs that don't, don't. Hint, hint. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
It's the same old argument only its not valid. All we are witnessing now is the adoption curve. All new technology takes time to catch on. Everyone I have let drive my car said, oh, this is just like a car. 1 out of ten go out and buy one after driving one. In my experience Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case. If you want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. The article just simply laid out their thinking. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/5806538e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
The BMW would work From: Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 12:05 PM Subject: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. I admit I'm not sure how that plays out for everyone. I had the decision myself recently, I drive 42 miles each way. I had to balance out a moderate credit score and a super tight budget, and monthly costs. And I don't want or have the ability to charge at my work location. (unless it were flow batteries and as easy as petrol, 5min ok, 10min not so much) No way in heck I could get approval for a EV that could work for me. I got a 2014 PriusC at $216/mo, trade-in 2007 Prius. Am I EV? Not so much, but I do get 50-60mpg often. You do the math on all costs involved. But I still couldn't get a loan approved over $25k(-6k trade-in) or so. So for me it wasn't an issue of adoption of the idea. I would love a full on EV, if it suited the use cycle I need. It was budgetary and situational. I belong to the 99%. A good portion of us are in my same boat. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:39:33 -0500 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org It's the same old argument only its not valid. All we are witnessing now is the adoption curve. All new technology takes time to catch on. Everyone I have let drive my car said, oh, this is just like a car. 1 out of ten go out and buy one after driving one. In my experience Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Not stupid at all. You just resent the facts presented in the case. If you want EV's to succeed, you need to face what potential customers think. Solve their issues, and whalla, Success! Stupid or not, those are your customers. The article just simply laid out their thinking. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:31:52 -0400 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org How trite!... Also, completely wrong. The current battery is what makes electric cars viable... http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=3710doc_id=277584 Here is my response to this stupid article: The basis of your uninformed claim Yes, Electric Cars Still Need an Innovative Battery is your century and 3 generation old legacy of gas-tank/gas-station narrow minded thinking. Authors who write about EV's with that legacy are blind to the value of EV's. Yes, EV's do not meet ALL of the versatility of the gas car, but they DO meet (and far exceed by a factor of three or more) the value of local travel and commuting which is over 80% of our national vehicle transportation (and emissions)! Why are you so dead set against the 80% solution (which every EV owner will tell you gives them 100% satisfaction and in fact saves them 3:to:1 on operating costs. And costs LESS than the average Gas car? You are quoting 2008 technology, and market, and thinking. Sure in 2010, the first EV's cost more than comparable gas cars. But by 2013 with 15 EV's on the market and the $5k price drop by Nissan and GM, the average cost* of an EV broke even with the average costs of all gas cars sold in America ($31k). By 2015, the average price* of all EV's ($29k) is now $3k LESS than the average gas car and if you ignore the Luxury Tesla, then the average EV cost* ($26k) is now $5k less than the average gas car? And by the end of 2015, there are 40 EV's on the market further bringing down that average cost (*after incentives). So where on earth can you make your outlandish (outdated legacy-thinking) claim about batteries when people who buy EV's represent the HIGHEST satisfied car customers and their cars fully meet their needs? What is missing is awareness and education . of which your article is completely misguided and fails. Please see http://aprs.org/EV-misinformation.html Sorry for the tone. But it is gas driving authors with articles like yours that are holding back EV sales, not the battery. The battery HAS SUCCEEDED in bringing us the ideal local-travel and commuter car. Let those that can use it buy it and get out of the way. Sorry for the tone. But rants feel good sometimes.. Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:
Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery.
First off, there are hundreds of options in personal transportation. Not one vehicle fits all needs so person must choose. This doesn't change just because you're driving and electric vehicle it doesn't suit all needs but neither does a truck or station wagon or Corvette you get the picture. As for the BMW it has extended range have another 70 or 80 miles on gasoline. Sent from my iPhone On May 19, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Arak Leatham via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: wow, so I see, your answer for the general public is to live where EV's will work? That's very draconic of you, and presumptive. I live where I live because I must. This is the reason many people drop out of the EV interest, obtuse requirements and limitations. If you are trying to save the planet, by scrunching all people to less than 30mi from work? That's not a sustainable goal(for many reasons). But of course, everyone living more than 30 isn't either. The real answer is limiting world population's to less than 5billion and we know that won't fly either. Seriously, I checked with BMW, the price is $46k. The range is 70-80miles. The price is way too high and range too short to suit my need. Anyway, I'm back to dropping out until a more amenable world of ideas prevails. Point done. I leave the floor. Arak Leatham - ( My hobby: I want 300 MPG ) Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:14:18 -0400 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] FW: Design News: Why Aren't Electrical Cars Sales Better? It's the battery. From: ev@lists.evdl.org I would argue that you're living or working in the wrong place. 42 miles each way is a waste of your time and of gasoline or electricity. --Rick On 05/19/2015 01:05 PM, Arak Leatham via EV wrote: I admit I'm not sure how that plays out for everyone. I had the decision myself recently, I drive 42 miles each way. I had to balance out a moderate credit score and a super tight budget, and monthly costs. And I don't want or have the ability to charge at my work location. (unless it were flow batteries and as easy as petrol, 5min ok, 10min not so much) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150519/5d81fab1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
http://vtb.engr.sc.edu/vtbwebsite/downloads/publications/capacityfade_JPSPaper2.pdf Here is one study on the effects of different voltage cutoff points using CC-CV charging. I believe this was well before DIYers were using them. From: David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com To: Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Success! Actually, those procedures were developed by customer feedback mostly! As some of us started reducing the ending voltage so did the spec sheets of TS, CALB, et al. Do you have references for those procedures being developed prior to 5 years ago? I haven't been able to find them. Maybe it was just the Chinese manufacturers who did that but then they were some of the only ones who would sell us DIY people batteries. On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Paul Dove dov...@bellsouth.net wrote: Sorry about that my dog hit my arm and hit send by accident. Sure one can develop their own procedure however, these procedures were developed in a laboratory and the batteries dissected afterwards to see the effect. My point was anything over 3.38 V is charging the cell Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 7:16 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150605/20f5d1b9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge the pack to about 28% SoC, then floor the accelerator to draw 3C from the pack and see if the LVC alarm on the minibms triggers. So far it has not. Range likely has decreased a bit, but this test indicates it has not decreased all that much. My cells are LiFePO4, different than the Leaf, but according to Dahn worse with regard to temperature effects, so I don't think you need be too concerned. On the hottest days I sometimes park the car in the shade of a tree rather than leave it in the garage. Winter brings the opposite problem, but I have Farnum heaters under aluminum sheet that the batteries sit on and 1/2 insulation in the boxes. Keeps them at the set point of 65 F in the winter when it is
Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging a Nissan?
My I-MiEV recommends driving down to one bar on the gauge once a month to reset the gauge. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. I was shocked when I heard that was in the manual. Then by fortune one day on a plane trip the guy sitting next to me noticed all my EV magazines etc, and admitted he was a battery engineer for Nissan. I asked him point blank. His response was something along these lines. Yes, slow charging is just fine, in fact, better for the life of the battery than fast charging. The reason they cannot recommend it is the simply the *ergonomics* of customer expectations of the miles-to-go gauge. If people do nothing but trickle charge a few miles, drive a few miles, charge a few miles, drive a few miles, etc without ever running down to near empty then the miles-to-go algorithm just kind-of accumulates growing errors and after weeks of this, it loses track of where the *real* bottom of the battery is. Then they take an 80 mile trip because the gauge tells them they have 82 miles to go, and they are indignant that the car died at 70 miles. So to them, it is far *safer* from a public relations perspective to encourage people to cycle their batteries more fully so that charging events put in a LOT of charge and the guess-o-meter can re-calibrate itself to where empty and full actually are. I can see their point. It simply is not worth it to degrade the accuracy of the guess-o-meter by encouraging trickle charging after every use and have to put up with daily driver dissatisfaction with the gauge, than it is to sacrifice a little long term life on an 8 year battery. Understanding this makes me understand why the quote What's best for the life of the battery is a completely AMBIGUOUS question and EQUALLY ambiguous answer. It depends on what life one is talking about??? Daily Depth and mileage life, or long-term +8 year life? Bob, WB4APR ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Trickle Charging?
True so let's define it Trickle charging means charging a fully charged battery under no-load at a rate equal to its self-discharge rate, thus enabling the battery to remain at its fully charged level.A battery under continuous float voltage charging is said to be under float-charging. I would never do either one if these things to a Lithium Ion battery Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:29 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Absolutely never trickle charge any type of Lithium Ion battery Another absolute statement, that is meaningless unless the term trickle charge is defined. Yes, trickle charging beyond FULL is absolutely bad. But there is nothing wrong with trickle charging at a low rate when the batteries are well below full. Bob, WB4APR Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks, everybody, for all the advice. Sunday evening when I had dinner at their place, I set the car to only charge to 80%. I also set the timer so that it'll finish charging by 6:00 am, thinking that that was when their time-of-use plan kicked up to the higher rate. They actually don't have a morning restriction, only an afternoon one, so I'll probably change that to 8:00 am, so that any charging will be a closer match for the coolest part of the day...it'll be cooler at 8:00 am than 10:00 pm, with 6:00 am about as cool as it gets. One relevant question...they've only got the 110V charger with the car. It's plenty for their actual charging needs...but the Nissan manual pretty clearly says that Nissan doesn't recommend trickle charging. Does anybody know if that's a you'll damage your pack if you always trickle charge recommendation, or if it's a you'll die of frustration watching paint dry in the time it takes to charge recommendation? If the latter...not a problem. A very, very long day of driving for them would be 50 miles, and that'd easily go back in the battery overnight. The former...would be worth getting something Dad can plug into the 220 outlet in the garage. The garage has a not unreasonable amount of insulation...not ideal, but as much as is practical. And there's a window A/C unit mounted in the wall that they'll leave on when it's hot. A swamp cooler is out for the other reasons mentioned, and for the fact that Dad does a lot of woodworking in the garage, and the big humidity swings would be a problem. The Leaf is a bit bigger than the '55 VW Bug that previously lived in the garage (and is now going to live in the carport), so Dad was busy making room in there and backing in and out yesterday when I stopped by for a minute. They haven't charged the car yet and it still has 40 miles on the guess-o-meter. All in all, definitely a wise investment. Amortized over several years or so, it's a net financial gain...and the money they used to pay for the car was sitting in an account not doing anything. The month-to-month expenses are going to be significantly less, so it'll feel to them like they've got more money to play with. And they won't have to get gas, there's no maintenance, and all the rest. And it's a really nice car to boot. Probably the best thing they've done with their money since they paid off their mortgage early. Thanks again, everybody, for all the advice! b On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:05 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: In a phone conversation, Dr. Dahn told me that LFP starts deteriorating a 104°F when fully charged. You can simply not charge fully. Exactly how not fully? I don't know. Also there may be differences depending on the form factor, source of the electrode, electrolyte compositions, and so on. No rules of thumb here, but you may want to prudently reduce the charge cutoff voltage. The difference between 3.4V and 3.7 could be huge in terms of cell life, particularly if the pack gets hot when charged. This is complicated by the general rule not to ever, ever charge Li ion cells in your residence. Mike On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 10:40 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: My garage is a steel building with no insulation. In summer it typically is 10 to 15 F warmer than outside temperature. You can feel the IR radiation from the walls and roof, like being in an oven, and the metal is hot to the touch. In June through August it is typically 100 to 118 F inside. My ev has been garaged there for 5 1/2 years, 40k+ miles. I live in high desert where the nights are typically 35 F lower than daytime highs, so the highest temperature the battery reaches just sitting in the garage is significantly below the daytime high temperature in the garage since the cells have significant heat capacity and are in insulated boxes. The pack has been up to 110 to 115 F a number of times in the hot months after longer drives. Seems to just keep going. Each year I do a test drive to discharge
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Success!
Sorry about that my dog hit my arm and hit send by accident. Sure one can develop their own procedure however, these procedures were developed in a laboratory and the batteries dissected afterwards to see the effect. My point was anything over 3.38 V is charging the cell Sent from my iPhone On Jun 4, 2015, at 7:16 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:27 PM, David Nelson gizm...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes I suppose this is confusing. Let them ion batteries are charged according to a procedure. Let's take lithium iron phosphate for example. According to the procedures you charge to 3.65 V constant current. Then you hold the voltage at 3.65 and taper the current to C/20. Remember that that procedure was developed to reduce time to charge and the chance that the batteries get overcharged while still reaching 100%SOC or nearly so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: pavegen.com tiles charge EV from human foot traffic (v)
Why charge cars? They should do this anyway to run the lights
From: brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 6:46 AM
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: pavegen.com tiles charge EV from human foot traffic (v)
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/can-you-charge-a-tesla-model-s-through-footsteps-apparently-yes-video-96736.html
Can You Charge a Tesla Model S Through Footsteps? Apparently, Yes - Video
by Tudor Rus 16th June 2015
[image
http://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/can-you-charge-a-tesla-model-s-via-footsteps-apparently-yes-video-96736_1.jpg
video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPS-z6_pjDI
People Powered Tesla
Pavegen Jun 9, 2015
Pavegen generates energy from footsteps, each time someone walks over the
tile up to 7 watts (7 Joules) of energy is generated.
We used our Pavegen technology to harness the footfall of a busy street to
charge a Tesla car battery, creating an off grid energy harvesting solution!
Taking into consideration a number of footfall assumptions and the EPA rate
for a Tesla at 382 Watt Hours per Mile. The system works and the Pavegen
tiles were used to charge the vehicle however several hundred thousand steps
are required to allow the vehicle to drive for 20 minutes on London's
Streets.
If the footsteps were used from one of London's busiest shopping locations:
Oxford Street, enough energy would be generated from a day of people walking
to drive a car 953 miles. All the way from London to Barcelona and further!
Pavegen are currently raising investment on Crowdcube, you can invest as
little as £10. See link here:
https://www.crowdcube.com/investment/pavegen-19189
#investaware
]
Everybody just stop what you are doing right now and hear us out. No, in
fact, please start walking more because your footsteps will help charge EVs
in the future. And not just any EVs, we're referring to Tesla's Model S
sedan. That is, if Pavegen proves a successful product.
Too many variables, right? Well, let's take one thing at a time and shake
off the confusion. First in line, the gimmicks behind Pavegen tiles.
Pavegen is a 'clean tech' company established in London, UK. They develop
and manufacture flooring technology that converts the wasted kinetic energy
from footsteps into renewable electricity. That being said, it's worth
noting the company believes their product can change future smart cities by
providing a low-carbon energy contribution.
But we're interested in how will this apply to EV charging methods, so
we'll focus on a recent video posted by Pavegen on YouTube. The whole clip
is an experiment trying to see if people walking on a busy street can charge
the battery of a Tesla Model S by taking into consideration a number of
'footfall assumptions' and the EPA rate for a Tesla, set at 382 Watt-hours
per Mile.
According to the video's description, the system works. However, several
hundred thousand steps are required to allow the vehicle to drive for 20
minutes on London's streets, considering each Pavegen tile generates up to 7
watts at 12 volts DC whenever someone walks on it.
Lastly, the company's conclusion was that if the footsteps were used from
one of London's busiest shopping locations: Oxford Street, enough energy
would be generated from a day of people walking to drive a car 953 miles.
[© autoevolution.com]
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PaveGen
PaveGen
For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/
http://www.ibtimes.com/tesla-motors-denies-it-has-delayed-model-3-electric-car-launch-2018-1977836
Tesla Motors Denies It Has Delayed Model 3 Electric Car Launch To ...
Tesla Motors spokesman Ricardo Reyes has denied his company has delayed the
release of the $35,000 Model 3 electric car. His statement, posted on
Twitter, ...
http://masterherald.com/select-tesla-model-s-owners-to-test-hands-free-driving-by-the-end-of-the-month-reveals-elon-musk/19049/
Select Tesla-S Owners Testing Hands-Free Driving sez CEO
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/06/16/three-oddball-tesla-patents/
3 Odd Tesla Patents dual-pack,amphibians,anti-whiplash airbags
http://auburnpub.com/skaneateles/news/power-move-mirbeau-inn-spa-in-skaneateles-installs-electric-vehicle/article_c24562c9-5abb-50d3-921b-630db7f595aa.html
L2 MPWC EVSE @mirbeau.com Skaneateles-NY
+
EVLN: Tesla3 project includes sedan and crossover variants r:250mi
{brucedp.150m.com}
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View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-pavegen-com-tiles-charge-EV-from-human-foot-traffic-v-tp4676434.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield. At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external to the battery. The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical energy. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/35499394/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
Just so you know you are getting over my head but this is the way I understand it. Inside a battery plain electrons can't travel around because it takes too much energy to put a plain electron in solution. Electrons can only travel inside the battery via charged chemicals, ions, which can dissolve off the electrodes. The chemical reaction is what pushes the electrons inside toward the negative end, because the electrodes at the two ends are made of different materials, which have different chemical stability. From: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com To: paul dove dov...@bellsouth.net; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 3:34 PM Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge So, let me try to paraphrase this. Are you saying that - the electrolyte can only conduct ions, - with an open circuit (nothing connected to the terminals), no electrons can move from one side to the other, - therefore, with an open circuit, there can be no loss of charge over time? In theory, that sounds solid. However, what if there is some internal leakage of electrons? What if the electrolyte is not a perfect insulator? Is it possible for some electrons to travel (and ions in the opposite direction) and some discharge to happen? Peri -- Original Message -- From: paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 23-Jun-15 1:21:20 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge Oh, yea, sorry I don't know why I was thinking magneticfield. At any rate the rest of what I said is accurate I believe.There is no electric field in a battery. A battery is a chemical reactor. The reaction is called red-ox reactions. In the battery is electrolyte which can conduct ions but not electrons. Electrons must move external to the battery. The potential in the battery is a chemical potential or the chemical energy. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/35499394/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/adbc1a29/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge
There is not an electric field inside a battery. The electrolyte cause the field to be in equilibrium otherwise it would immediately discharge. The field is present when the terminals are connected and that is why you get ion movement. Sent from my iPad On Jun 22, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael Ross via EV wrote: I am comparing to the lead acid chemistry where the charged state has a competing lower thermodynamic state, so a charge lead acid cell always runs down even in the absence of any short circuit or load. One of the neat things about Li ion cells that this condition does not exist. This is the self discharge that I am talking about. Well, Dahn says very clearly in his lecture there is no redox shuttle back to the positive electrode. Lack of any redox reactions doesn't mean there aren't any other sources of leakage and self-discharge. For example, capacitors have no redox shuttle, either... and yet they self-discharge. When you have a voltage difference, you also have an electric field. The strength of this field is usually measured in volts per meter. When the oppositely charged particles are very close together (micrometers), even a small voltage difference (like 3v) creates an enormous electric field strength (3 million volts per meter). Such a field strength can easily propel electrons from one side to the other; i.e. discharge the battery. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
Yes, if one really wants to protect from cell failure then fuse each cell like Tesla does. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I said it, because it has come up in papers and journal articles I have read. Paul agreed with me I think. The basic Li ion cell does not self discharge - none of them. Once charged they will just sit there and remain asis until something creates a circuit for the ions to migrate back to the positive electrode. I don't understand the mechanism for PbSO4, but they do discharge just sitting unattached to any circuit - all of them. What this says is if a cell is having ions migrate back to the positive electrode that something is wrong. There are all sorts of manufacturing defects that can cause it, or BMS deficiencies, etc. No amount of correction to a lead acid will stop it from discharging. If you tell me that your Thundersky cells shows a loss over time, I don't disbelieve that - I say instead, they needed more and better design work and some manufacturing improvement. There is some sort of fault causing an internal or external parasitic load. The prismatic, folded page cells, like CALB and TS are not very good in many respects, Some (all?) bolt the conductive plates onto an aluminum post with a threaded fastener. Bleh. Notice that folks like Tesla did not choose that form - even though the alternative was to make individual connections to 7000 smalls to accomplish the task. Those little cylindrical cells have some advantages. They lend themselves to very automated, read consistent, construction. Consistency is very important at the pack level. The cylindrical form is much more stable when subjected to the volumetric changes that Li ion cells undergo when charging and discharging. They can't be packed too close that they cannot convect heat well (with some extra gear to puch air (or other fluids around them). Internally the cylindrical cells are simpler with less opportunity for failure. The connection to a pack by welding is as good as it gets. And so on. I am pretty sure in that video by Jeff Dahn I keep alluding to (and linking) he mentions this characteristic of Li ion cells. Did you all notice that article Bruce linked to about Tesla funding research at the Dahn Lab? I am hoing the Tesla will make these results open to all as they have so many other things in the interest of furthering the use of EVs. Look forward for new information, rather than back to the old and less well done research. Stuff we read from 2009 is quite stale WRT Li cells. Mike On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 06/19/2015 11:58 AM, Ben Goren wrote: On Jun 19, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief. His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a roadside truck scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and concluding that all humans weigh exactly 200 pounds. You may be implying that Paul attempted to deduce self discharge from cell voltage? When my first lithium pack was new, I was frequently amazed that NUMEROUS EV folks with extensive lead experience would put a volt meter to my cells and proclaim: Why these cells are PERFECTLY balanced! I don't know how many times I've attempted to explain that it is almost impossible to determine state of charge from voltage on lithium cells. Other than at the tails, of course. Though I don't know that Paul made that mistake. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150619/a90c49e5/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
I haven't seen any science from BMS advocates yet. They make lots of assumptions based on nothing. Besides I have a BMS I just don't have a cell level BMS. I haven't heard the theory on self discharge yet? Or the rate at which they discharge or an example of someone putting one on the shelf for 5 years then measuring the voltage and capacity. Save for Jack Richard who boldly did it and published a video. I read a lot of papers and I only found one that talks about self discharge although I don't agree with the way they use the term because what they really verify in the paper is capacity fade. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben Goren via EV wrote: I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief. His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a roadside truck scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and concluding that all humans weigh exactly 200 pounds. Lee, in comparison, is akin to a long-time general practice physician who's kept aggregate patient records of vital statistics for decades, and concludes that...80% more likely to need treatment... I wouldn't put it that starkly. I'd say it's more like Joe Blow buying a new ICE car, and at 3000 miles he sees that the oil level on the dipstick is still the same. So he concludes that it doesn't use a drop of oil! So he skips the oil changes. 2 years and 30,000 miles later, the car is towed to the dealer, three quarts low and with a wrecked engine. On the other hand, his mechanic Crusty swears by 3000 mile oil changes. That's not always necessary; but it's good insurance. People who do this can expect to go 200,000 miles before the engine is using any significant amount of oil. So it's more like the blind men and the elephant. Each sees the same data, but come to different conclusions because of their perspective. I'm not some big company; I'm a lone wolf working in his basement. I have to get my batteries cheap; as bargains, or donations, or old, or used, or on loan so I don't dare hurt them. That means they aren't likely to be prime stock. But that's a good thing! I get to see batteries at their WORST, not just at their best. Another thing... The storage battery is one of those peculiar things which appeals to the imagination, and no more perfect thing could be desired by stock swindlers. Just as soon as a man gets working on the secondary battery, it brings out his latent capacity for lying. -- Thomas A. Edison There are few industries with more BS than the battery industry. -- Elon Musk Battery information has been unreliable for a hundred years. 99% of what you read is either lying to make money, or the mindless parroting of what someone else said. This mean you should treat everything you read about batteries as BS (baloney sandwiches, as Carl Sagan said). You have to *test it for yourself*! This is tedious; but not particularly difficult or expensive. And, you need to keep a skeptical mind. Just because one does X doesn't mean that they all do X. It's as if there's a devious little demon inside, doing everything in his power to trick you. With only a few quick tests, he's likely to lie to you (and get away with it)! So you need to be diligent, and repeat your tests in different ways to pry the truth out of him. Oh yeah? *Prove* it! -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery)
Yes, but I'm not at home now. When I get back to town I'll share my data Sent from my iPhone On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer since it appears beaten to death: Paul and Michael, Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify if they show self-discharge or not? Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined (so it must be an issue) but it appears that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not just a quick voltage check that they still had juice) is convinced that they do show self-discharge. To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.info www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery) I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I have been saying. I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self discharge referring to capacity loss. Here is Dr. Popov's website: http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php I went through the occurrences of lithium in the list and copied them for your edification below. I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity loss in a separate posting. Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with. *snip* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/977f30e9/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 10048 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/977f30e9/attachment.png ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Mechanisms of self-discharge in Li-Ion batteries
I've said that. It's negligible and will not go to zero or not for 100 years so practically this won't be an issue. However, launching something into space is a different matter Sent from my iPhone On Jun 20, 2015, at 3:36 AM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Paul, The Third header in the article reads: Self-Discharge Phenomena in Lithium-ion batteries Here is another article modeling the self-discharge as well as the capacity loss of Li-Ion batteries: http://www.juliandehoog.com/publications/2013_TENCON_ModelingSelfDischarge.pdf Just to clarify, here an important quote from it: Cells have been shown to lose a certain amount of charge during storage through so-called leakage currents of two different kinds [4]. The first type of leakage current occurs due to reversible lithium-consuming reactions in the electrolyte, which reduces the stored charge but not the capacity of the cell. The second type of leakage current occurs due to irreversible lithium-consuming reactions in the electrodes, which reduces not only the stored charge but also the capacity of the cell. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 9:11 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery) Did actually read it? That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: David, Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion cell that cause self-discharge. Happy reading! http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery) Bill, I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however. One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, however. It is Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable Batteries by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004. While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism. This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true. Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position. If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is please share it. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This zero self-discharge myth seems to be a common thread with the anti-BMS crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from. All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS. These are well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.) I strongly suspect the zero self-discharge myth comes from the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from. Bill
Re: [EVDL] Final post, was: Bicycle battery
I can say the same about you. You may have had some cells drop but not all or even most. All they papers I quote are from scientific journals or NASA presentations. I read the complete design of the Boeing APU battery and even read about the company who designed their charger burning down the lab while testing it. Here's a paper titled self-discharge but if you read it you will see it's about capacity fade. http://www.cswang.umd.edu/publications/papers/35.pdf Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Paul, It appears that you are not learning from experience and data that is shared with you, so I am going to stop responding to your posts. I have shared that I have a pack of used LiFePO4 cells in my garage and I have measured its self discharge and I have seen the cells go down towards zero and obviously I did not want to destroy the pack, so as soon as they went below 2.5V due to self-discharge, I recharged them. Capacity was good, so it looks like it is not the capacity fade that causes self-discharge apparently. But I wonder why you are on this group and continue to spout information that does not match with the data that people with many years of experience have gathered? Are you here to learn about batteries? Then do yourself a favor and please stop talking and start listening. It appears that you are new to battery charging since you are confusing different terms and specs for battery chemistries. Are you here to tell everyone why everyone is wrong and you are right? You might find that not too many people will continue to listen to you, unless you document your tall claims with peer-reviewed and reproducible data. Over many decades of battery development there have been too many guys that made claims that were too good to be true and that is exactly what everyone found out eventually. Don't stop reading papers but always question whether it is scientifically proven what they claim, because anyone can type words, but it is an entirely different matter to have a proof of a new theory and your claim of no self discharge will need a lot of proof, seeing that actual field data tells a different story. I am not here to warn you or to tell you what you must do, just to say that you can expect people to stop listening and filter your messages into the spam folder if you continue on the path that you were on these last 2 days. I have tried to give input and set some of your claims straight, but I need to stop investing my time because I judge that it has become a waste of time since you appear not to listen to correction. Bon voyage. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 2:29 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery I haven't seen any science from BMS advocates yet. They make lots of assumptions based on nothing. Besides I have a BMS I just don't have a cell level BMS. I haven't heard the theory on self discharge yet? Or the rate at which they discharge or an example of someone putting one on the shelf for 5 years then measuring the voltage and capacity. Save for Jack Richard who boldly did it and published a video. I read a lot of papers and I only found one that talks about self discharge although I don't agree with the way they use the term because what they really verify in the paper is capacity fade. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 19, 2015, at 3:34 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben Goren via EV wrote: I am curious as to how Paul came to his belief. His methodology is inadequate to the task -- rather like using a roadside truck scale to weigh the first four people to pass by and concluding that all humans weigh exactly 200 pounds. Lee, in comparison, is akin to a long-time general practice physician who's kept aggregate patient records of vital statistics for decades, and concludes that...80% more likely to need treatment... I wouldn't put it that starkly. I'd say it's more like Joe Blow buying a new ICE car, and at 3000 miles he sees that the oil level on the dipstick is still the same. So he concludes that it doesn't use a drop of oil! So he skips the oil changes. 2 years and 30,000 miles later, the car is towed to the dealer, three quarts low
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery)
Did actually read it? That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: David, Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a Li-Ion cell that cause self-discharge. Happy reading! http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery) Bill, I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however. One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, however. It is Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based Rechargeable Batteries by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004. While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism. This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true. Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position. If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is please share it. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This zero self-discharge myth seems to be a common thread with the anti-BMS crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from. All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a BMS. These are well-documented facts for all those that care to investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.) I strongly suspect the zero self-discharge myth comes from the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from. Bill D. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- David D. Nelson http://evalbum.com/1328 http://www.levforum.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $27k Chevy Spark EV price cut to encourage sales
The I-MiEV is $22 thousand something. I don't know who writes this garbage Sent from my iPad On Jun 25, 2015, at 9:01 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: http://www.providencejournal.com/article/20150620/ENTERTAINMENTLIFE/150629955/13881 Test Drive: Price cut for Chevy's electric car sparks sales By Ann M. Job The Associated Press Jun. 20, 2015 [image http://www.providencejournal.com/storyimage/PJ/20150620/ENTERTAINMENTLIFE/150629955/AR/0/AR-150629955.jpg The Chevrolet Spark EV is the lowest-priced 2015 electric car with two rows of seats offered in the U.S. by a major auto manufacturer. Chevrolet | http://www.providencejournal.com/storyimage/PJ/20150620/ENTERTAINMENTLIFE/150629955/EP/1/1/EP-150629955.jpg The interior can seem spartan, but rear-seat legroom and headroom are decent.Chevrolet ] It took a price cut to generate a run on Chevrolet's 2015 Spark EV, with savvy car buyers realizing the lower price combined with the federal electric vehicle tax credit can make for a super deal. Chevrolet lowered the starting retail price for the plucky subcompact electric car to $25,995 last month, making it the lowest-priced 2015 electric car with two rows of seats offered in the U.S. by a major auto manufacturer. With the $7,500 tax credit, the purchase price can wind up at just $18,495 — akin to the price of a gasoline-powered small car like the Honda Fit EX. There also are the savings the Spark provides: $80 or more a month on gas, according to the manufacturer, because the car uses only electricity. Even buyers who would prefer to lease the Spark EV can get in on the deal with Chevrolet's $139-a-month lease program that requires no down payment. Now, the downside: It has a limited range of 82 miles on a full charge and can take seven hours to fully charge even with a 240-volt charger. The Spark EV is also sold in only two states: California and Oregon, with Maryland to be added this summer. Still, the appeal was quickly apparent as the Spark EV outsold the better-known and widely available Chevrolet Volt (starting retail price: $35,170) in April. Total sales of Spark EVs in April were small, 920, but far more than the 97 sold in January and more than the 905 Volts sold in April. The federal tax credit isn't directly taken off the purchase price of the Spark EV, but instead from a buyer's U.S. income taxes for the year the car is purchased. So, the tax credit generally won't be seen until next income tax season. The Spark EV's starting manufacturer's retail price and destination charge include power windows and door locks, keyless start, cruise control, air conditioning and Chevy MyLink entertainment system. The best-selling electric car in the United States last year — the larger compact Nissan Leaf — has a starting MSRP, including destination charge, of $29,860 for a base S model. The Spark EV has a better gasoline-equivalent fuel economy rating than the Leaf: 119 to 114. But the Leaf, which has an 84-mile range on a single charge, is available in more states than the Spark EV. Meantime, the second best-selling electric car in 2014 was the Tesla Model S, which has a $76,200 base retail price and a travel range of at least 240 miles on a single charge. The Spark EV is not for everyone. The interior can seem spartan, even in the tested 2LT trim level. Front and rear seats were covered in a faux leather that felt like thick plastic, and the seats seemed smallish and had flat cushions. Rear door entryways were small, too, as the rear wheel wells cut into the doorways. But rear-seat legroom and headroom are decent, and there's 23.4 cubic feet of cargo space when back seats are folded down. The driver has a pull-down center arm rest, though there are no covered storage spots between the front seats and rear seats. All seat adjustments were manual in the test Spark EV. The test Spark had good acceleration and merged well into traffic, thanks to a class-leading 327 ft.-lbs. of torque. Chevrolet puts the 0-to-60-mph time at 7.2 seconds. The electric power steering gave the Spark EV a bit of a go-kart feel, as response was decently quick. The tidy, 33.8-foot turning circle made U-turns a breeze, and the Spark's diminutive 12.2-foot length from bumper to bumper meant it could fit into curbside parking spots that SUVs and large sedans had to pass up. The Spark EV, however, was easily buffeted by winds — and even a passing semi while sitting at a stoplight. The Spark weighs just 2,866 pounds. The 7-inch display screen in the middle of the dashboard worked easily with a smartphone and was reminiscent of the screen and controls in the higher-priced Volt. There was no rearview camera, but 10 air bags are standard. The Spark EV is designed as a city car and does best in short, non-highway trips. A nice feature in the configurable instrument cluster is it can show both high and low range
Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery)
Here's my observation I received my cells and new the measured 3.3 volts. 16 months later when I put then in the vehicle they measured 3.298 and 3.297. Sent from my iPad On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:39 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: One last question and then I prefer not to extend this subject any longer since it appears beaten to death: Paul and Michael, Did you guys actually *measure* Li-Ion cells over extended period to verify if they show self-discharge or not? Because the interesting thing is that self-discharge is not only well defined (so it must be an issue) but it appears that everyone who measured Li-Ion cells over extended time periods (and not just a quick voltage check that they still had juice) is convinced that they do show self-discharge. To me, it seems to be the classical case of “in theory, there should be no difference between practice and theory. In practice, however…”. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info http://www.cvandewater.info www.proxim.com http://www.proxim.com/ This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. From: Michael Ross [mailto:michael.e.r...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 6:30 AM To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zero self-discharge (was: Bicycle battery) I think this is going to come down to semantics and word definition. I bet Popov never looks into self discharge because it is a basic non existent occurrence in lithium ion batteries. Which is what Paul Dove and I have been saying. I saw in the paper linked by Cor that he used self discharge referring to capacity loss. Here is Dr. Popov's website: http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php http://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/engineering_and_computing/faculty-staff/popovbranko.php I went through the occurrences of lithium in the list and copied them for your edification below. I will pull out the ones that seem pertinent to self discharge and capacity loss in a separate posting. Mostly that is not what Popov is concerned with. *snip* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/977f30e9/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 10048 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/977f30e9/attachment.png ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells
If you have a bike with no BMS and you are monitoring the cells that should be all the data you need to decide if a BMS is necessary. Not what others tell you. What are you observations of the cells Sent from my iPad On Jun 23, 2015, at 6:29 PM, damon henry via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thanks Cor, for the information. I thought I would like to play with these, but maybe not due to some of the concerns you bring up. I currently have 16 60ahr calb cells I am learning with on my motorcycle with no BMS. The investment in this small of pack is not huge and hands on learning is worthwhile, so I don't mind being my own BMS in this case. I would eventually like to put Calb cells in my truck. I will likely install a BMS in my truck as that will be a larger investment and more cells to try and keep track of manually. Right now I am leaning towards Orion. So the Zener balancers were just going to be for experimenting and observation. I understand the risks of not installing a BMS, but it is always interesting comparing that against the risk of having something permanently wired across your cells. damon Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:18:42 -0700 To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells From: ev@lists.evdl.org Lee has discussed this in the past, it is likely in the archives. I see three main issues: - at lower voltage, the zener knee gets very soft so unless you use additional electronics to amplify, the zener itself does not work very well on a single cell as you already indicated, two cells might indeed be better since around 6V the zeners have the best characteristics but that introduces issues with imbalance between the two cells - Voltage differences while charging are very small with most types of Lithium. 3.2V at rest but 3.5V is over-charging a LiFePO4 cell whereas a flooded/AGM lead-acid battery can easily go from 12V to 15V and it does not hurt them to be sitting at 15V while balancing for an hour. - leakage and failure: while zeners are supposed to go on at a certain voltage, they will leak below that voltage so you are introducing extra self-discharge which can very per cell with the properties of the zener, so in a sense you are making the situation for Li-Ion worse. Also zeners can fail (shorted typically) and mechanically fail and the Lithium cells will not take well to being over-charged due to a failure Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via EV Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:37 AM To: EV List Subject: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells Hi, I am wondering if anyone has adapted Lee Hart's Zener regulators for lithium cell use. I don't think the voltage of one cell is high enough to use this type of device on, but I think proper values can be found to regulate two cells in series. I would love to experiment with some of these and would like full bypass at 6.8 volts. I believe the 12 volt model can be tweaked by picking appropriate replacement Zener diodes, but I don't do a lot of this type of design, so I am not familiar with what is available or where to source the parts. Any help would be appreciated. thanks Damon Here is a link to Lee's design.http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm#zenerlamp -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/2b159354/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150623/212b619a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
Excerpt:In theory, all batteries are identical. If wired in series, you would therefore expect them all to charge and discharge equally. But in practice, there are differences. New batteries that are all the same brand, same model, same date code (and without lemons or quality control defects) will still have small differences. Each cell 's self-discharge rate, amphour capacity, internal resistance, and charge/discharge efficiency will be slightly different. This makes them drift to different states of charge. For example, cells with a higher self-discharge rate run down faster just from sitting. Cells with a lower amphour capacity get more deeply discharged on each cycle, which lowers their efficiency (so they need a bit more current to fully recharge). Cells with a higher internal resistance run a little hotter, which affects their efficiency and self-discharge rate. These differences tend to get larger over time. If not corrected, you can have a pack with some cells almost full, and some almost empty! Ok, here's the deal this is fiction. Self discharge is so low (milivolts over years) as to be non-existant.Secondly, if they are in series then all current passing through cells is equal. It is impossible to draw more current from one cell than another in a series pack. It can short and pass all current or it can open and pass no current but it cannot discharge faster or slower. If it has higher resistance then it will cause cells to heat faster that is all. Please show evidence that your theory is possible. The only person I spoke with having issues with new cells is when they were placed in parallel with old cells. In that case the wires melted because the new cell was handling more of the current. You may damage cells if there is a big difference in resistance only if you exceed the max current draw from the cell. If one never approaches the max current draw this will not be an issue. From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery Paul Dove via EV wrote: That was a very good summary. Cell balancing is something that was done with other chemistry a and many have tried to apply it to Li Ion chemistries but it doesn't work with Lithium since cells do self discharge or drift. If one wanted to balance them it has to be done below 3.38 volts otherwise you are still charging the cell. Thanks for your input. Lithiums need balancing even more than other chemistries! You can only get by without a BMS if the cells are so well matched that they accidentally stay in balance. (Do you feel lucky?) Look at my own balancer at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/balancer.htm I built it to *use*, not to sell. It doesn't load the cells, or clamp the voltage at some arbitrary level, and doesn't have failure modes that murder cells. It basically does what you would do yourself, if you had the time and inclination. It measures the voltage of every cell, and charges the ones that are low. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150618/dc23c230/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
We already covered how to tell is a cell has internal defects. You drain the cell to 2.5 volts and then if the cell voltage rises it's good if it keeps falling don't use it. I did think this up This is what NASA does. I read it in one of their presentations. I can dig it up if you like. As for the Dreamliner I followed that carefully. My favorite chart that they presented to the FAA said - the only thing that causes lithium battery fires is overchargeing - we can find no evidence we are over charging - therefore the cause of the fire is unknown One of those statements has to be wrong. And the fire was the evidence of overcharging. The open circuit voltage of their battery was 29.6 volts. The system voltage was 32 volts. They were charging the cells the whole time the APU was running and wondering why it burned. As for laptops they were overcharging as well. The paper I read the designer claimed that leaving a small amount of current flowing or trickle charge as they call it would not hurt lithium batteries. Sent from my iPad On Jun 18, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: This message has no content. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150618/c4bcfdcb/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
I agree with that. Sent from my iPad On Jun 18, 2015, at 10:12 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A question for Paul DOve, Whence came your evidence of self discharging in Li ion cells? I have the other impression entirely - that there is no mechanism by which self discharge is even possible. If cells are mismatched in a pack there can be an accumulation of drift relative to other cells in a pack (which can cause problems), parallele cells will equilibrate among themselves (why you want them to be closely matched) BMS and other electrical/electronic equipment can produce a parasitic load across a pack, but a charged cell sitting alone on a shelf does not lose charge. It's capacity can decrease so that subsequent performance is less good, but there is no self discharge. Mike On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Paul, I presume you never ride in a car, because Ford's Pinto was a bomb on wheels and unsafe at any speed. Your line of reasoning does not warrant a serious response and I have given many reasons why a BMS is a good thing - I like to discuss based on arguments and data, not on lore and incidents. BTW, last I heard the root cause of the dreamliner fires is still unknown, there is suspicion about the quality of the batteries, similar to what caused laptop batteries to catch fire due to impurities embedded in the cells and trigger thermal runaway. I have helped to investigate a fire in a converted EV with Lithium-Ion prismatic cells that I suspect (but it was never conclusively proven) was caused by manufacturing defects. There was no BMS on that pack and it was not being charged, still it caught fire just sitting. One thing that I found was that what appeared to be a hotspot also showed severely deformed (folded crooked as if they were rammed into the prismatic case) cell plates (the original pouches that are contained in a bundle inside the prismatic cell) in one of the cells. But you can't say they used a BMS so that caused the fire. If you have a source that proves that it was in fact the BMS causing the fire then I would be interested in a link. Here is what I have: http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/02/investigation-reveals-cause-of-battery-fire-on-boeing-787-dreamliner/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems http://www.ifsecglobal.com/dreamliner-lithium-battery-fire-cause-still-unknown/ Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 6:31 PM To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery Even Boeing burned up dream liners with a BMS. Got any other argument besides everyone is doing it? Sent from my iPad On Jun 18, 2015, at 2:02 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 18 Jun 2015 at 11:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: That pack is very nicely top-balanced and I expect that many more BMSs that you are not even aware of in daily appliances such as power tools will all top-balance. One more time. There is a really good reason that the only place you find aversion to BMSes is among EV hobbyists. Real world electronics manufacturers -- the ones who build millions of laptops, mobile phones, power tools and yes, commercial EVs -- know that you don't sell a product with a lithium battery unless it has ample smarts to protect the battery, the user, and the manufacturer. Trust me, these guys have bean counters looking over their shoulders. They wouldn't be using BMSes if they weren't necessary. BMSes protect the battery from early failure, the user from hazard to life and limb, and the manufacturer from the lawyers! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
I did not say it was impossible. As long as you stay below the open circuit voltage it's possible. However, if you hold the voltage at 3.6 for LiFePO4 while shunting the current you will still be charging the cell. In essence all you are doing is modifying the charge procedure and loosing track of actual charge time. CC CV charging dictates holding the voltage and tapering the current which is not achieved in this scenario. I said its unnecessary. I am not really concerned about what engineers are doing in commercial products it's clear from the laptop fires the airplane fires the car fires etc. that there is still a lot of false beliefs about these cells. I know dewalt bottom balances their battery and has no cell BMS Sent from my iPad On Jun 18, 2015, at 1:43 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Paul, How familiar are you with electronics? My wife's eBike has a nice pack with a built-in BMS that simply starts shunting current above a certain voltage and presumably (but I can't verify) also reduces charging current, so you can take care that the shunting cells are receiving zero current and no longer rise in voltage. The trick is to find a good voltage at which your BMS will protect the cells. That pack is very nicely top-balanced and I expect that many more BMSs that you are not even aware of in daily appliances such as power tools will all top-balance. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:40 AM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery No one has convinced me that top balancing is even possible much less that a BMS can achieve this. If you hold a cell above the Open circuit voltage you are charging it even if you are trying to shunt the current with a Mosfet From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery David Nelson via EV wrote: That is a reason I don't use a cell level BMS. With a cell level BMS like the miniBMS there is a constant drain on the cells running the BMS boards and it is nearly impossible to make sure that each board uses the _exact_ same current regardless of voltage in the cell. Furthermore, boards like the miniBMS expect that you will balance at the end of every charge and last I saw, that balance voltage was at 3.6V or so which is over the theoretical 100% SOC level for LiFePO4 cells which leads to potential overcharging of the cells on every charge cycle. If you stop charging without the balancing taking place and/or let the pack sit for extended periods of time then the different current draw of each board working 24/7 introduces an imbalance in the SOC of the cells in the pack. Yes, this is a problem in the BMS market. Like quack medicine, it's full of customers worried about a problem that they don't understand very well. So there are marketeers only too happy to throw together some piece of junk that purports to solve it. It doesn't have to actually work -- it only needs to *sound* like it works, to separate the customer from his money. So some BMS work -- and some don't. The bad ones are so bad that they give the whoel BMS market a bad name. I've written about this over and over... check my old posts. It mostly seems to be of no avail, so I won't repeat myself again. Anything I say is overwhelmed by the noise of the internet. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150618/9258c414/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
Even Boeing burned up dream liners with a BMS. Got any other argument besides everyone is doing it? Sent from my iPad On Jun 18, 2015, at 2:02 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 18 Jun 2015 at 11:43, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: That pack is very nicely top-balanced and I expect that many more BMSs that you are not even aware of in daily appliances such as power tools will all top-balance. One more time. There is a really good reason that the only place you find aversion to BMSes is among EV hobbyists. Real world electronics manufacturers -- the ones who build millions of laptops, mobile phones, power tools and yes, commercial EVs -- know that you don't sell a product with a lithium battery unless it has ample smarts to protect the battery, the user, and the manufacturer. Trust me, these guys have bean counters looking over their shoulders. They wouldn't be using BMSes if they weren't necessary. BMSes protect the battery from early failure, the user from hazard to life and limb, and the manufacturer from the lawyers! David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
. If charging does not harm the pack, what about discharging hundreds of Amps through a resistor that is nicely embedded in the pack, insulated from the outside by the cells around it? If it even drops 10V across it at hundreds of Amps, you now have a multi-kiloWatt heater inside your pack without much cooling. What do you think will happen? Just some easy illustration of the *need* for a cell-level BMS, from practice by measuring what happened to a used set of Lithiums (that indeed was run without BMS) and I have been monitoring since taking it out of service. Learn from it or get your own experience, your choice. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:57 AM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery Excerpt:In theory, all batteries are identical. If wired in series, you would therefore expect them all to charge and discharge equally. But in practice, there are differences. New batteries that are all the same brand, same model, same date code (and without lemons or quality control defects) will still have small differences. Each cell 's self-discharge rate, amphour capacity, internal resistance, and charge/discharge efficiency will be slightly different. This makes them drift to different states of charge. For example, cells with a higher self-discharge rate run down faster just from sitting. Cells with a lower amphour capacity get more deeply discharged on each cycle, which lowers their efficiency (so they need a bit more current to fully recharge). Cells with a higher internal resistance run a little hotter, which affects their efficiency and self-discharge rate. These differences tend to get larger over time. If not corrected, you can have a pack with some cells a lmost full, and some almost empty! Ok, here's the deal this is fiction. Self discharge is so low (milivolts over years) as to be non-existant.Secondly, if they are in series then all current passing through cells is equal. It is impossible to draw more current from one cell than another in a series pack. It can short and pass all current or it can open and pass no current but it cannot discharge faster or slower. If it has higher resistance then it will cause cells to heat faster that is all. Please show evidence that your theory is possible. The only person I spoke with having issues with new cells is when they were placed in parallel with old cells. In that case the wires melted because the new cell was handling more of the current. You may damage cells if there is a big difference in resistance only if you exceed the max current draw from the cell. If one never approaches the max current draw this will not be an issue. From: Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery Paul Dove via EV wrote: That was a very good summary. Cell balancing is something that was done with other chemistry a and many have tried to apply it to Li Ion chemistries but it doesn't work with Lithium since cells do self discharge or drift. If one wanted to balance them it has to be done below 3.38 volts otherwise you are still charging the cell. Thanks for your input. Lithiums need balancing even more than other chemistries! You can only get by without a BMS if the cells are so well matched that they accidentally stay in balance. (Do you feel lucky?) Look at my own balancer at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/balancer.htm I built it to *use*, not to sell. It doesn't load the cells, or clamp the voltage at some arbitrary level, and doesn't have failure modes that murder cells. It basically does what you would do yourself, if you had the time and inclination. It measures the voltage of every cell, and charges the ones that are low. -- The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there before. -- Roy Spence -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
I had this issue early on in my vehicle and at the end of charge my pack voltage reflected this and I removed the bad cell. The cell was shorted but the rest of the pack was fine. I have no cell monitoring. Pretty sure it was caused by a loose connection. That said, apart from expense I have no problem with a BAttery Monitor that looks at every cell but prismatic cells have multiple cells in them in parallel so you can't monitor them individually. Still of the opinion it is an unnecessary expense. You haven't convinced me that cell discharge or drift between SOC is a real issue. I cat see it ever being an issue. Sent from my iPhone On Jun 18, 2015, at 12:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Paul, It is true that in series string the same *load* current goes through all cells, but the principle of self-discharge is that it occurs internal to the cell, so it is invisible to the outside world except when you measure each cell (or blow them up due to overcharge or under-discharge). I have actually measured cells and seen the self-discharge. As you say, it is a small effect in good cells. But still, there is about 1:2 difference in self-discharge between the cells I monitor and the differences add up over time. It might not be a problem in the first year or even in the second. Then in the 3rd year you try to squeeze an 85 or 90% discharge from the cells and boom - one reverses (or more) and it is destroyed and you might only find out from the fireworks when you try to charge it the next cycle or when you drive it. Oh BTW - one reason to monitor *all* and *every* cell is exactly the issue with the infamous bottom-balancing without BMS approach: Some of the cells that I have were abused and too deeply discharged. Guess what happens? They become a resistor. Some are low resistance which is OK when they resemble a wire, others are still in doubt whether they want to become a piece of wire or rather a heating element. This has at least 2 disastrous effects if you do not detect this immediately: 1. The pack voltage has dropped and each cell now gets a much higher finish charging so you might have been charging conservatively with all cells in the string, but with some cells removed, all the rest is dividing up the difference and may easily be charged to destruction now! 2. If charging does not harm the pack, what about discharging hundreds of Amps through a resistor that is nicely embedded in the pack, insulated from the outside by the cells around it? If it even drops 10V across it at hundreds of Amps, you now have a multi-kiloWatt heater inside your pack without much cooling. What do you think will happen? Just some easy illustration of the *need* for a cell-level BMS, from practice by measuring what happened to a used set of Lithiums (that indeed was run without BMS) and I have been monitoring since taking it out of service. Learn from it or get your own experience, your choice. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of paul dove via EV Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2015 9:57 AM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery Excerpt:In theory, all batteries are identical. If wired in series, you would therefore expect them all to charge and discharge equally. But in practice, there are differences. New batteries that are all the same brand, same model, same date code (and without lemons or quality control defects) will still have small differences. Each cell 's self-discharge rate, amphour capacity, internal resistance, and charge/discharge efficiency will be slightly different. This makes them drift to different states of charge. For example, cells with a higher self-discharge rate run down faster just from sitting. Cells with a lower amphour capacity get more deeply discharged on each cycle, which lowers their efficiency (so they need a bit more current to fully recharge). Cells with a higher internal resistance run a little hotter, which affects their efficiency and self-discharge rate. These differences tend to get larger over time. If not corrected, you can have a pack with some cells al most full, and some almost empty! Ok, here's the deal this is fiction. Self discharge is so low (milivolts over years) as to be non-existant.Secondly, if they are in series then all current passing through
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
I just report what I observe. My cells don't self discharge. Only had one reverse and as I said that was a loose connection. I don't know of anyone who claims their cells went to zero sitting on a shelf. Unless they were defective it should never happen. However, there's probably a low percentage of defective cells produced. Irrelevant to the workings of a battery pack since they can be tested prior to building the pack Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael, I think you are starting to get it, even though you express it in a peculiar way. In real life, nothing is 100% pure. Every material and every surface has *some* contamination, even in a clean room. They just make sure that what is still there is small enough or in low enough numbers that it does not really hurt their yield, but they still need to test every circuit since it still may be unacceptably damaged by the unavoidable contamination. Same in battery manufacturing - it only needs to be clean enough that the effect introduced by contamination is low enough not to harm the operation of the cell and for example the self-discharge is within specification. Have you ever seen a modern cell manufacturing facility? It is almost as good as a clean room just as all modern electronics production is done in very clean environment just to avoid failures. I do not know enough about the chemistry of the battery physics to judge if there is an inherent mechanism of self-discharge. I do know that a lot of battery parameters are a trade-off, for example you can buy batteries with higher power but with lower capacity or you can buy higher capacity with lower power (in the same form factor). Similar trade-offs exist between high and low temp operation. It may be that the basic chemical reaction does not have a self-discharge mechanism and that a theoretical perfect Li-Ion cell has no self-discharge. But that is the same as saying that a theoretical perfectly sealed ICE engine does not need new motor oil ever, because it does not leak. Still I check my oil level from time to time, even though I know that it does not leak now, I could be losing oil and damage the engine if I do not keep an eye on the level once in a while. The well-documented laptop Lithium battery fires were actually attributed to excessive contamination of battery cells during production, which could even cause short circuits in the cells and thermal runaway around those (large) contaminations. So - the result of this is that no matter how good manufactured, any Li-Ion cell will have some self-discharge. High quality cells will have lower numbers than more sloppy produced cells and variation of self-discharge will also be an indication of quality and consistency of the manufacturing process, but saying that there is no such thing while everyone who is working with batteries tells you that it does exist is, well, denying reality. Hope this clarifies, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:34 AM To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery I said it, because it has come up in papers and journal articles I have read. Paul agreed with me I think. The basic Li ion cell does not self discharge - none of them. Once charged they will just sit there and remain asis until something creates a circuit for the ions to migrate back to the positive electrode. I don't understand the mechanism for PbSO4, but they do discharge just sitting unattached to any circuit - all of them. What this says is if a cell is having ions migrate back to the positive electrode that something is wrong. There are all sorts of manufacturing defects that can cause it, or BMS deficiencies, etc. No amount of correction to a lead acid will stop it from discharging. If you tell me that your Thundersky cells shows a loss over time, I don't disbelieve that - I say instead, they needed more and better design work and some manufacturing improvement. There is some sort of fault causing an internal or external parasitic load. The prismatic, folded page cells, like CALB and TS are not very good in many respects, Some (all?) bolt the conductive plates onto an aluminum post with a threaded fastener.
Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
Li cells are not designed to have low self discharge. It is a matter of physics. They just don't or I should say it is very very low and slows down with ever charge cycle. What loss there is is due to electrolyte breakdown and forming of the SEI layer, primarily. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Cor, From an electrochemical point of view, the laptop fires were due to components in the cells (electrolyte and separator primarily), that ignited from an internal short, but were sustained by the components gassing off oxygen at higher temperatures, causing a runaway situation. More heat = more oxygen = more heat=... If the chemicals/construction didn't self support combustion, then little dendritic shorts would be less consequential. One of the reasons that LFP cells fare better is a much higher temperature when self supporting combustion happens. There is about 100°C more head room. That doesn't mean they won't burn up fast though given the right conditions The family of lithium ion cell has the capability, when designed and operated properly, not to have any loss of charge from just sitting. This is not true for some other battery chemistries - lead acid in particular. You can't apply the understanding of one to the other in this respect. The trickle charge subject is similar. PbSO4 cells benefit from a light trickle charge to make up for the gradual loss of sitting. The same treatment will destroy Li ion cells, but there is no need because they don't lose their charge - if they are made right and their operating systems are right. On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael, I think you are starting to get it, even though you express it in a peculiar way. In real life, nothing is 100% pure. Every material and every surface has *some* contamination, even in a clean room. They just make sure that what is still there is small enough or in low enough numbers that it does not really hurt their yield, but they still need to test every circuit since it still may be unacceptably damaged by the unavoidable contamination. Same in battery manufacturing - it only needs to be clean enough that the effect introduced by contamination is low enough not to harm the operation of the cell and for example the self-discharge is within specification. Have you ever seen a modern cell manufacturing facility? It is almost as good as a clean room just as all modern electronics production is done in very clean environment just to avoid failures. I do not know enough about the chemistry of the battery physics to judge if there is an inherent mechanism of self-discharge. I do know that a lot of battery parameters are a trade-off, for example you can buy batteries with higher power but with lower capacity or you can buy higher capacity with lower power (in the same form factor). Similar trade-offs exist between high and low temp operation. It may be that the basic chemical reaction does not have a self-discharge mechanism and that a theoretical perfect Li-Ion cell has no self-discharge. But that is the same as saying that a theoretical perfectly sealed ICE engine does not need new motor oil ever, because it does not leak. Still I check my oil level from time to time, even though I know that it does not leak now, I could be losing oil and damage the engine if I do not keep an eye on the level once in a while. The well-documented laptop Lithium battery fires were actually attributed to excessive contamination of battery cells during production, which could even cause short circuits in the cells and thermal runaway around those (large) contaminations. So - the result of this is that no matter how good manufactured, any Li-Ion cell will have some self-discharge. High quality cells will have lower numbers than more sloppy produced cells and variation of self-discharge will also be an indication of quality and consistency of the manufacturing process, but saying that there is no such thing while everyone who is working with batteries tells you that it does exist is, well, denying reality. Hope this clarifies, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 11:34 AM To: Willie2; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
