Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
As for what light is, keep in mind that we do know (with a very high degree of assuredness) that light consists of quantum particles, and that those particles move along geodesic paths through whatever medium they encounter. All that we know is what we infer from the instruments and materials that we use to measure what we assume is light traveling through space. If light were instead a sensory-motor capacity common to all matter, our results would look exactly the same. It seems like the speed of light slows in a medium, but it could be the medium itself which is slow to respond to its neighbors. Light may not a particle at all, any more than news is a particle. What we have seen is that matter acts like we think it would act if there were particles or waves present, but we would guess the same thing if we observed the behavior of card at intersections, imagining the red, green, and yellow lights were exotic entangled particles jumping and radiating across the city in geometric patterns. until one understands those issues, talking about reality as a philosophical issue is just BSing. Lots of homework here needed first! It depends if you are trying to describe and understand a reality which includes yourself or not. From my perspective, it is the physicist who may just be BSing and adding epicycles. There is much more understanding that needs to be factored into the universe than just quantitative systems - lots of philosophical, psychological, and semiotics homework is needed first! It is just a great mistake to develop models that lack the centuries of developed mathematical tools we have today as it is to try to fix a complex problem with a modern car with no tools but your mind. It is just as great a mistake to consider mathematical models as meaningful without integration with the universe that we actually perceive and participate in. Science is a branch of philosophy, not the other way around. The only reason that we care about physics at all is because it informs us about the universe in which *we* live. If not for consciousness of some kind, it seems that the universe would be a meaningless collection of debris, unworthy of more than brief curiosity (if you could smuggle in some brief curiosity) Craig. On Thursday, January 17, 2013 9:26:25 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: Hi David Bonnell Anything that moves through spacetime is physical. Simple as that. [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] javascript: 1/17/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - *From:* David Bonnell javascript: *Receiver:* dfine javascript: *Time:* 2013-01-16, 15:44:10 *Subject:* Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? The speed of light is altered when photons move in a medium whose index of refraction is greater than that of the vacuum (raw space). This change is what causes alterations in the movement of light as it passes through, for instance, lenses. is the relation, where n is refractive index, c is the (maximal) speed of light in vacuum, and v is the propagation velocity on a medium of refractive index n. The SIMPLEST internet search can uncover lots more about the simple physics involved. The fact that light speed can be retarded by its passage through a medium has little to do with the fundamental reality that the speed of light is a constant in free space. The idea of light (EM fields) as waves is the result of the great successes of Maxwell's equations, which deal with EM phenomena as continuous fields. That theory, as successful as it was, is not the final word, and has been superseded by Quantum Electrodynamics (QED), which yields Maxwell's equations on scales where the underlying quantum effects are negligible. QED is also a field theory, and there are philosophical issues to be considered when wondering whether fields are in fact real or are just another level above the true underlying reality. But that sort of philosophical musing is not something that words will handle - there are strong physical and mathematical reasons why gauge theories (QED and the other model equations of the Standard Model are all gauge theories - not to mention current work in areas such as string theory) are thought at present to be the real way the world works, and until one understands those issues, talking about reality as a philosophical issue is just BSing. Lots of homework here needed first! As for whether photons are real or not, look up the photoelectric effect, and read some of the original papers in the field before you try to decide if you can even consider the question. Einstein's Nobel prize was given for his work here, which is, by most, considered to be the definitive proof of the quantum nature of light (EM particles). The problem with waves is tied up in older thinking about wave-particle duality. The particles
Re: Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
Hi Richard Ruquist The monads are not BEC's, because presumably BECs are physical. Monads aren't [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/11/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-10, 11:47:26 Subject: Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? Well Roger, Think of the number infinities that Bruno is always referencing to. Think of the number infinities in terms of a static MWI deterministic Block Universe BU. The number infinities exist in the monad relationships at various levels and places in monad space, the Mind space of the BU One could speak of a static density of monad infinities in Mind space. A. Since it's mathematically true that matter evolves from these infinities, The conjecture is that analog quantum waves and fields are variations in the density of the infinities of the monad number relationships. B. Many strong infinities may occupy a very small region of Mind space. The conjecture is that they may become discrete particles including physical particles, ie., the Mind space is both analog and digital. Such strong infinities may also have the property of 1- dimensional flow. Then the points of strong infinity in Mind space may couple to the flow. resulting in a geometry suggestive of Indra's Net of Pearls. The collapse problem is to get from A to B. A happens in the analog Mind space where the number infinities are continuous. Since the monads in the Mind space are a BEC where thoughts happen instantly for lack of friction, we can imagine that the infinities could collapse instantly. But mathematically it is necessary for all relevant infinities, except those at the point of interaction, to be normalized or cancelled. Feynman metaphorically first quantized the monad number infinities. That is, he allowed all the monad wave function infinities to collapse to every possible quantum particle that could be created by the interaction. Apparently the Mind has the same ability. He then cancelled all of these collapsed quantum particles but one by allowing their anti-particles to come back from the future. So only one particle becomes physical. (If Feynman can renormalize QED, the Quantum Mind certainly can) Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Or equivalently we can think of a Quasi-Block Universe QBU, where everything happens instantly in a 1p perspective. There is still no time or consciousness. Time is created when conscious free will choices force the BU to recalculate like your auto GPS. The hard problem is knowing where conscious free will comes from. It could come from Godelian incompleteness or it could come from biological complexity exceeding the universal calculational capacity, But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. NB: if MWI is true all the cancelled quantum particles continue to create measure as if they were never cancelled, So it is one or the other. yanniru On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Sounds a little fantastic to me, but what do I know ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/10/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them. Or is that overboard? Richard points and lines word geometry? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more
Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
Is experimentation even theoretically possible at the Planck length/width? This could effect EM, and, of course also impacts your Light post. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
BEC condensates may contain any kind of particle, not just physicsl particles. However, we presume that the mathematics is more or less the same for all BECs and therefore we can come to understand BECs with physical experiments. Presumably monads are particles, seeing that they are discrete and separate. On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 11:57 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist The monads are not BEC's, because presumably BECs are physical. Monads aren't [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/11/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-10, 11:47:26 Subject: Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? Well Roger, Think of the number infinities that Bruno is always referencing to. Think of the number infinities in terms of a static MWI deterministic Block Universe BU. The number infinities exist in the monad relationships at various levels and places in monad space, the Mind space of the BU One could speak of a static density of monad infinities in Mind space. A. Since it's mathematically true that matter evolves from these infinities, The conjecture is that analog quantum waves and fields are variations in the density of the infinities of the monad number relationships. B. Many strong infinities may occupy a very small region of Mind space. The conjecture is that they may become discrete particles including physical particles, ie., the Mind space is both analog and digital. Such strong infinities may also have the property of 1- dimensional flow. Then the points of strong infinity in Mind space may couple to the flow. resulting in a geometry suggestive of Indra's Net of Pearls. The collapse problem is to get from A to B. A happens in the analog Mind space where the number infinities are continuous. Since the monads in the Mind space are a BEC where thoughts happen instantly for lack of friction, we can imagine that the infinities could collapse instantly. But mathematically it is necessary for all relevant infinities, except those at the point of interaction, to be normalized or cancelled. Feynman metaphorically first quantized the monad number infinities. That is, he allowed all the monad wave function infinities to collapse to every possible quantum particle that could be created by the interaction. Apparently the Mind has the same ability. He then cancelled all of these collapsed quantum particles but one by allowing their anti-particles to come back from the future. So only one particle becomes physical. (If Feynman can renormalize QED, the Quantum Mind certainly can) Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Or equivalently we can think of a Quasi-Block Universe QBU, where everything happens instantly in a 1p perspective. There is still no time or consciousness. Time is created when conscious free will choices force the BU to recalculate like your auto GPS. The hard problem is knowing where conscious free will comes from. It could come from Godelian incompleteness or it could come from biological complexity exceeding the universal calculational capacity, But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. NB: if MWI is true all the cancelled quantum particles continue to create measure as if they were never cancelled, So it is one or the other. yanniru On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Sounds a little fantastic to me, but what do I know ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/10/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them
Fw: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
I appear to be wrong about the aether, according to a physicist friend of mine, and the lastest physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories Apparently the Michaelson-Morley experiment has been explained away, and, together with the discovery of dark energy and matter, the theory of the aether is being replaced by new theories. - Have received the following content - Sender: makoilaci Receiver: Roger Clough Time: 2013-01-09, 12:15:42 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? just the opposite. general relativity brought aether back, but it is 4-dimensonal. -- On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
Hi Richard Ruquist Sounds a little fantastic to me, but what do I know ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/10/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them. Or is that overboard? Richard points and lines word geometry? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
Well Roger, Think of the number infinities that Bruno is always referencing to. Think of the number infinities in terms of a static MWI deterministic Block Universe BU. The number infinities exist in the monad relationships at various levels and places in monad space, the Mind space of the BU One could speak of a static density of monad infinities in Mind space. A. Since it's mathematically true that matter evolves from these infinities, The conjecture is that analog quantum waves and fields are variations in the density of the infinities of the monad number relationships. B. Many strong infinities may occupy a very small region of Mind space. The conjecture is that they may become discrete particles including physical particles, ie., the Mind space is both analog and digital. Such strong infinities may also have the property of 1- dimensional flow. Then the points of strong infinity in Mind space may couple to the flow. resulting in a geometry suggestive of Indra's Net of Pearls. The collapse problem is to get from A to B. A happens in the analog Mind space where the number infinities are continuous. Since the monads in the Mind space are a BEC where thoughts happen instantly for lack of friction, we can imagine that the infinities could collapse instantly. But mathematically it is necessary for all relevant infinities, except those at the point of interaction, to be normalized or cancelled. Feynman metaphorically first quantized the monad number infinities. That is, he allowed all the monad wave function infinities to collapse to every possible quantum particle that could be created by the interaction. Apparently the Mind has the same ability. He then cancelled all of these collapsed quantum particles but one by allowing their anti-particles to come back from the future. So only one particle becomes physical. (If Feynman can renormalize QED, the Quantum Mind certainly can) Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Or equivalently we can think of a Quasi-Block Universe QBU, where everything happens instantly in a 1p perspective. There is still no time or consciousness. Time is created when conscious free will choices force the BU to recalculate like your auto GPS. The hard problem is knowing where conscious free will comes from. It could come from Godelian incompleteness or it could come from biological complexity exceeding the universal calculational capacity, But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. NB: if MWI is true all the cancelled quantum particles continue to create measure as if they were never cancelled, So it is one or the other. yanniru On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Sounds a little fantastic to me, but what do I know ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/10/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them. Or is that overboard? Richard points and lines word geometry? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:47:26 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. And vice versa.That's because they are the same thing. Consciousness is literally a leap across mechanism, computation, and physics. That is what free will is made of. Free will cheats. Cheating is free will. Math and physics don't cheat because they are built from islands of meaning in a vacuum. Cheating is a private agenda exercised publicly. It only makes sense that could be the case if 1p is primary, so that laws and certainties are circumstantial consequences arising from 1p and not the other way around. Experienced meaning is the plenum within which all spatio-temporal-functional-substantial gaps are generated. Craig Craig -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/3x_JpsFl9o0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Richard Ruquist yann...@gmail.com wrote: Well Roger, Think of the number infinities that Bruno is always referencing to. Think of the number infinities in terms of a static MWI deterministic Block Universe BU. The number infinities exist in the monad relationships at various levels and places in monad space, the Mind space of the BU One could speak of a static density of monad infinities in Mind space. A. Since it's mathematically true that matter evolves from these infinities, The conjecture is that analog quantum waves and fields are variations in the density of the infinities of the monad number relationships. B. Many strong infinities may occupy a very small region of Mind space. The conjecture is that they may become discrete particles including physical particles, ie., the Mind space is both analog and digital. Such strong infinities may also have the property of 1- dimensional flow. Then the points of strong infinity in Mind space may couple to the flow. resulting in a geometry suggestive of Indra's Net of Pearls and such points and lines suggest string theory. The collapse problem is to get from A to B. A happens in the analog Mind space where the number infinities are continuous. Since the monads in the Mind space are a BEC where thoughts happen instantly for lack of friction, we can imagine that the infinities could collapse instantly. But mathematically it is necessary for all relevant infinities, except those at the point of interaction, to be normalized or cancelled. Feynman metaphorically first quantized the monad number infinities. That is, he allowed all the monad wave function infinities to collapse to every possible quantum particle that could be created by the interaction. Apparently the Mind has the same ability. He then cancelled all of these collapsed quantum particles but one by allowing their anti-particles to come back from the future. So only one particle becomes physical. (If Feynman can renormalize QED, the Quantum Mind certainly can) Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Or equivalently we can think of a Quasi-Block Universe QBU, where everything happens instantly in a 1p perspective. There is still no time or consciousness. Time is created when conscious free will choices force the BU to recalculate like your auto GPS. The hard problem is knowing where conscious free will comes from. It could come from Godelian incompleteness or it could come from biological complexity exceeding the universal calculational capacity, But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. NB: if MWI is true all the cancelled quantum particles continue to create measure as if they were never cancelled, So one or the other is true yanniru On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist Sounds a little fantastic to me, but what do I know ? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/10/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2013-01-09, 10:29:00 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them. Or is that overboard? Richard points and lines word geometry? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:47:26 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. And vice versa.That's because they are the same thing. Consciousness is literally a leap across mechanism, computation, and physics. That is what free will is made of. Free will cheats. Cheating is free will. Math and physics don't cheat because they are built from islands of meaning in a vacuum. Cheating is a private agenda exercised publicly. It only makes sense that could be the case if 1p is primary, so that laws and certainties are circumstantial consequences arising from 1p and not the other way around. Experienced meaning is the plenum within which all spatio-temporal-functional-substantial gaps are generated. Craig Craig I have come around to agreeing with you Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Only the 1p perspective is dynamic or causes dynamicism- changes in the Block Universe. However, I suspect that the qauntum Mind uses a more or less constant flow of time out of convenience(;) Richard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/3x_JpsFl9o0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:42:06 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:47:26 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. And vice versa.That's because they are the same thing. Consciousness is literally a leap across mechanism, computation, and physics. That is what free will is made of. Free will cheats. Cheating is free will. Math and physics don't cheat because they are built from islands of meaning in a vacuum. Cheating is a private agenda exercised publicly. It only makes sense that could be the case if 1p is primary, so that laws and certainties are circumstantial consequences arising from 1p and not the other way around. Experienced meaning is the plenum within which all spatio-temporal-functional-substantial gaps are generated. Craig I have come around to agreeing with you Nice! Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Only the 1p perspective is dynamic or causes dynamicism- changes in the Block Universe. That does agree with me. I don't see a block universe, but I do see that 3p is static slices of the totality of 1p. I might say that the uniformity of that 3p static representation in reducing all 1p qualities to positions is block like in it's consistency, but not in the sense of there being a literal universe of all possibilities frozen in a spatial firmament like memory locations. Once you have sense as the foundation, you don't need a future which is fully realized, it can be the case that some aspects of some futures are available sooner or later within specific experiences and narratives. Your intuition of the future, for example, is helping you create (or avoid) that future as much as it is a window into what has already happened in 'the' future. The blocking is more like a 1p jet engine taking in raw batter to cook into 3p pancakes than a wormhole drilling through an eternal pancake. Speculation, obviously... just trying to show one way that sense can change the assumptions which compel Block models. Craig However, I suspect that the qauntum Mind uses a more or less constant flow of time out of convenience(;) Richard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/3x_JpsFl9o0J. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.comjavascript:. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com javascript:. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/C-EZUTXmrI4J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:42:06 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 12:29 PM, Craig Weinberg whats...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:47:26 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: But in the end the magic of consciousness requires a 1p leap of faith. And vice versa.That's because they are the same thing. Consciousness is literally a leap across mechanism, computation, and physics. That is what free will is made of. Free will cheats. Cheating is free will. Math and physics don't cheat because they are built from islands of meaning in a vacuum. Cheating is a private agenda exercised publicly. It only makes sense that could be the case if 1p is primary, so that laws and certainties are circumstantial consequences arising from 1p and not the other way around. Experienced meaning is the plenum within which all spatio-temporal-functional-substantial gaps are generated. Craig I have come around to agreeing with you Nice! Because in a Block Universe there is no future. There is no time or consciousness. nothing is happening. Only the 1p perspective is dynamic or causes dynamicism- changes in the Block Universe. I should have mentioned that the Mind is a block universe but not necessarily the physical universe(s). That does agree with me. I don't see a block universe, but I do see that 3p is static slices of the totality of 1p. I might say that the uniformity of that 3p static representation in reducing all 1p qualities to positions is block like in it's consistency, but not in the sense of there being a literal universe of all possibilities frozen in a spatial firmament like memory locations. Once you have sense as the foundation, you don't need a future which is fully realized, it can be the case that some aspects of some futures are available sooner or later within specific experiences and narratives. Your intuition of the future, for example, is helping you create (or avoid) that future as much as it is a window into what has already happened in 'the' future. The blocking is more like a 1p jet engine taking in raw batter to cook into 3p pancakes than a wormhole drilling through an eternal pancake. Speculation, obviously... just trying to show one way that sense can change the assumptions which compel Block models. Craig However, I suspect that the qauntum Mind uses a more or less constant flow of time out of convenience(;) Richard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/3x_JpsFl9o0J. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/C-EZUTXmrI4J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Fw: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:06:25 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: I appear to be wrong about the aether, according to a physicist friend of mine, and the lastest physics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories Apparently the Michaelson-Morley experiment has been explained away, and, together with the discovery of dark energy and matter, the theory of the aether is being replaced by new theories. As long as people continue to misinterpret energy as phantom of public physics they will always need to invent new kinds of foams, forces, fluxes, and fields to prop it up. Also there will need to continue to be new theories which explain away the enormous chasm between that world of nonsensical ghosts and the universe in which we actually live. - Have received the following content - Sender: makoilaci Receiver: Roger Clough Time: 2013-01-09, 12:15:42 Subject: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ? *just the opposite. general relativity brought aether back, but it is 4-dimensonal. *-- On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net javascript:] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/YOzwigs0-n0J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:08:35 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: Only the 1p perspective is dynamic or causes dynamicism- changes in the Block Universe. I should have mentioned that the Mind is a block universe but not necessarily the physical universe(s). I see Mind as the native sense-making experience of an individual human being. If Mind is a block universe, than so is flavor or color. Yes and all other qualia. Here I am more with Bruno than you. I break from Bruno over MWI vs. Feynman Richard That does agree with me. I don't see a block universe, but I do see that 3p is static slices of the totality of 1p. I might say that the uniformity of that 3p static representation in reducing all 1p qualities to positions is block like in it's consistency, but not in the sense of there being a literal universe of all possibilities frozen in a spatial firmament like memory locations. Once you have sense as the foundation, you don't need a future which is fully realized, it can be the case that some aspects of some futures are available sooner or later within specific experiences and narratives. Your intuition of the future, for example, is helping you create (or avoid) that future as much as it is a window into what has already happened in 'the' future. The blocking is more like a 1p jet engine taking in raw batter to cook into 3p pancakes than a wormhole drilling through an eternal pancake. Speculation, obviously... just trying to show one way that sense can change the assumptions which compel Block models. Craig However, I suspect that the qauntum Mind uses a more or less constant flow of time out of convenience(;) Richard -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/3x_JpsFl9o0J. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/C-EZUTXmrI4J. To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/A3hU88DEDckJ. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Are EM waves and/or their fields physical ?
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:04, Roger Clough wrote: Bruno, Another matter is that since the michaelson-morley experiment, space itself does not exist (is nonphysical). Space-time remains physical, here. There is no aether. Electromagnetic waves propagate through nothing at all, suggesting to me, at least, that they, and their fields, are nonphysical. Then all forces are non physical. But with comp nothing is physical in the sense I am guessing you are using. All *appearance* are, or should be explain, by (infinities of) discrete number relations. The physical does not disappear, as it reappears as stable and constant observation pattern valid for all sound universal numbers. Bruno Can we say that physical particles are often localised volumes that are full of infinities of discrete number relations and that a flux density of infinities can flow between them. Or is that overboard? Richard points and lines word geometry? [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 1/9/2013 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. - Woody Allen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
