date:20060314

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 3/14/06 3:30 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
shempmcgurk@
  wrote:
  
  IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA
  CENTRAL DIVISION
   
  ESTATE OF LEVI ANDELIN BUTLER,
  by and through his Personal Representative, JOSHUA BUTLER,
  Plaintiff,
  v.
  MAHARISHI UNIVERSITY OF MANAGEMENT and
  MAHARISHI VEDIC EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION,
  Defendants. ) Case No. 06-cv-00072
  
  
 This whole document is worth reading.


I agree.  It's compelling reading...and it certainly opened my eyes 
up to several things I wasn't aware of previously, such as the 
Dillbeck incident Rick reproduces below and, as someone else pointed 
out, the fact that Wysong feared for his own safety yet let Sem 
mingle with other students AFTER he heard him rummage through his 
kitchen drawers (gee, I wonder what he was looking for in a kitchen 
drawer...AFTER he had stabbed someone with a pen).



 Certain things jumped out at me, such
 as Suzy Dillbeck trying to get students upset about the pen 
attack - some
 still crying - to forget about what had just happened and focus on 
a
 Maharishi tape. Apparently she had the principle of the 2nd 
element in mind,
 which has often been used as a tactic to alienate people from what 
they're
 actually experiencing.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread Sal Sunshine

On Mar 14, 2006, at 3:54 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

 This whole document is worth reading. Certain things jumped out at me, such
 as Suzy Dillbeck trying to get students upset about the pen attack - some
 still crying - to forget about what had just happened and focus on a
 Maharishi tape. Apparently she had the principle of the 2nd element in mind,
 which has often been used as a tactic to alienate people from what they're
 actually experiencing.

I agree. One wonders how much more sane some of the people running MUM were, compared to Sem.  It's hard to imagine anything more insane happening at a university than the following:

 Fortunately, John Killian was able to deflect the pen slightly with 
his hand, possibly saving his own life.  The pen punctured his hand, 
chin, and throat, and left a red ink scratch across his throat.
A fellow student named Akbar Nazary grabbed Shuvender Sem and 
stopped the attack.
John Killian was taken to a restroom by Maharishi University of 
Management staff, advised that he probably did not need stitches, 
given a bandage, and encouraged to return to class.  His repeated 
requests to be taken to someone qualified to determine whether he 
needed stitches were turned down.
John Killian was then asked by University staff to meet with 
Shuvender Sem so that Sem could apologize.  Staff members, who 
included Chris Jones and Samuel Boothby, represented that the reason 
Sem had attacked Killian was that Sem had been meditating improperly.
Shuvender Sem's apology, which was prompted by Samuel Boothby, was 
delivered with a flat expression in a monotone voice, and with no 
indication of genuine remorse.
Samuel Boothby then asked John Killian if he was ready to return to 
class.  Killian could not believe Boothby was serious.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread feste37

For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it, not using a tactic 
 
to alienate people from what they're experiencing. You always take the most 
negative interpretation possible, while posing as an impartial, detached 
observer. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 3/14/06 3:30 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
  wrote:
  
  IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA
  CENTRAL DIVISION
   
  ESTATE OF LEVI ANDELIN BUTLER,
  by and through his Personal Representative, JOSHUA BUTLER,
  Plaintiff,
  v.
  MAHARISHI UNIVERSITY OF MANAGEMENT and
  MAHARISHI VEDIC EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION,
  Defendants. ) Case No. 06-cv-00072
  
  
 This whole document is worth reading. Certain things jumped out at me, 
such
 as Suzy Dillbeck trying to get students upset about the pen attack - some
 still crying - to forget about what had just happened and focus on a
 Maharishi tape. Apparently she had the principle of the 2nd element in 
mind,
 which has often been used as a tactic to alienate people from what they're
 actually experiencing.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread Rick Archer

on 3/14/06 4:05 PM, feste37 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it,

Of course she was. Everyone does.

not using a 
 tactic  
 to alienate people from what they're experiencing.

That wasn't her intention, but that's often the net effect of the TMO
approach to dealing with negativity.

You always take the most
 negative interpretation possible, while posing as an impartial, detached
 observer. 

What I'm suggesting is that many of the ways we've been taught in the TMO to
deal with various situations are actually quite unhealthy and lead to very
unnatural, out-of-touch, and in this case, fatal ways of thinking, feeling,
and behaving.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 3/14/06 4:05 PM, feste37 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it,
 
 Of course she was. Everyone does.
 
 not using a 
  tactic  
  to alienate people from what they're experiencing.
 
 That wasn't her intention, but that's often the net effect of the 
TMO
 approach to dealing with negativity.




The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Someone was just stabbed and Dillbeck's response is to go on with 
the lecture?  Talk about sweeping a problem under the rug!




 
 You always take the most
  negative interpretation possible, while posing as an impartial, 
detached
  observer. 
 
 What I'm suggesting is that many of the ways we've been taught in 
the TMO to
 deal with various situations are actually quite unhealthy and lead 
to very
 unnatural, out-of-touch, and in this case, fatal ways of thinking, 
feeling,
 and behaving.


Yes, fatal.

Sadly, the Butler affair was the culmination of and fruits of a 
pathology that had become the norm in TMO culture: manipulate the 
environment in order to further the goals of the Movement.  In this 
case, it was: ignore an actual crime because to not do so would be 
to suggest that crime can actually occur in a TM environment.  To 
not do so would mean reporting the crime and unfavorably skewering 
crime statistics that would disprove the Maharishi Effect.

Not at all the fault of the actual TM Technique but, yes, a fault of 
those TMO institutions and those that run them -- from MMY on down --
for perpetuating those pathologies.

In addition to representing a valid complaint of the Levi Butler 
Estate, I found the brief to be, on the whole, a fair and timely and 
MUCH NEEDED critique of the TMO culture.

It should be widely dissseminated and read by everyone in the 
Movement!






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread feste37

You may have a point. I was objecting to the use of the word tactic, which 
makes it sound insincere and even sinister. 

I think the trick is knowing when the technique of bringing in the second 
element is appropriate for the situation, and when something else is 
required. It's easy to be wise after the event.  Since I wasn't in that 
classroom, I 
can't condemn Susie Dillbeck. 

Also, the item posted has been written by  lawyers who smell big $. A 
jury will hear both sides. 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 on 3/14/06 4:05 PM, feste37 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it,
 
 Of course she was. Everyone does.
 
 not using a 
  tactic  
  to alienate people from what they're experiencing.
 
 That wasn't her intention, but that's often the net effect of the TMO
 approach to dealing with negativity.
 
 You always take the most
  negative interpretation possible, while posing as an impartial, detached
  observer. 
 
 What I'm suggesting is that many of the ways we've been taught in the TMO 
to
 deal with various situations are actually quite unhealthy and lead to very
 unnatural, out-of-touch, and in this case, fatal ways of thinking, feeling,
 and behaving.








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[FairfieldLife] My life is that level where unmanifest prevails...

Where do you get your energy from when you e.g. sleep only 2 hours?
 
MAHARISHI: Nobody knows if I am sleeping even those two hours. 
People make their stories. This is not significant in my case. Because 
I am not living in terms of how much I sleep and how much I eat and 
how much I wake up. This is not my life.  My life is that level where 
unmanifest prevails through all differences in manifestations.
 
So that is alright. It is like the life of everyone, like that, like 
that. How much one sleeps and how much one is awake and what one eats -
 what does it mean? It is a waste of time.
 
   
   
   Global Press Conference,  8.3.06






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 You may have a point. I was objecting to the use of the 
word tactic, which 
 makes it sound insincere and even sinister. 
 
 I think the trick is knowing when the technique of bringing in 
the second 
 element is appropriate for the situation, and when something else 
is 
 required. It's easy to be wise after the event.  Since I wasn't in 
that classroom, I 
 can't condemn Susie Dillbeck. 
 
 Also, the item posted has been written by  lawyers who smell big 
$. A 
 jury will hear both sides. 





Judy brought up a good point -- as you do -- that it will be good to 
hear the other side as well.  If that other side is a brief filed by 
the movement's lawyers, I hope we can get that and post it here, too.

In the meantime, the way I feel is that the lawyers who smell big 
, as you put it, will deserve every cent they get.

Am I the only one who, upon reading the brief, felt that much of 
what was written represented to a very great degree how I felt the 
movement is run?





 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer fairfieldlife@ 
wrote:
 
  on 3/14/06 4:05 PM, feste37 at feste37@ wrote:
  
   For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it,
  
  Of course she was. Everyone does.
  
  not using a 
   tactic  
   to alienate people from what they're experiencing.
  
  That wasn't her intention, but that's often the net effect of 
the TMO
  approach to dealing with negativity.
  
  You always take the most
   negative interpretation possible, while posing as an 
impartial, detached
   observer. 
  
  What I'm suggesting is that many of the ways we've been taught 
in the TMO 
 to
  deal with various situations are actually quite unhealthy and 
lead to very
  unnatural, out-of-touch, and in this case, fatal ways of 
thinking, feeling,
  and behaving.
 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: MUM lawsuit

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The campus itself went stapathya Vedic and now there are like 100
 students occupying a 200 acre campus, 2 acres per student. 
 
 It's a ghost town, soon it will resemble a Hindu Ghost Town, nice
 buildings run by skinny, pale people who will eventually simply fade
 into the ether they so longingly desire (but what do I know?). 
 

**

There are about 435 students on campus now:

http://www.mum.edu/TheReview/05-06/2-8-06.html#2







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
 snip
   What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
   percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
   So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
   for a portion of that session.
  
  I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
  that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no matter 
  if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
  still a valid TM session.
 
 This isn't rather.  I would agree: as long as *some* 
 percentage of a session is effortless, it's a valid
 TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
 portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.

But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so 
what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that 
helps bring people to a state of letting better than concentration, 
but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how 
it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, 
assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness 
of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is 
definitely a value-judgement.

 
  Assigning value judgements to your 
  practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
 
 Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?


Sure sounds like.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Follow-up for Turquoise

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
   
Just a couple of points:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
no_reply@ wrote:

 I agree. Actually, I was just trying to poke some fun on 
 the 'walking meditation' supposedly more effortless than 
 TM according to some here.

The meditation *component* of it is, IMO, more
effortless than TM, in that there is no specific
intent -- no mantra, no instruction to focus on 
anything in particular, nada.
   
   There is no specific intent during TM, either (much
   less instruction to focus on anything in particular).
  
  Well, there's almost a specific intent inherent in the 
instructions 
  (else, why call them instructions?)
 
 There's a case to be made that they *aren't*
 instructions, actually...
 
 In any case, I would contend that after a certain
 amount of practice, you aren't doing anything that
 could be called following instructions.  Vaj calls
 it conditioning, and that may be an appropriate
 term.  In which case, there's intent only to the
 point where you sit down and close the eyes, then
 the conditioning takes over.
 

If its really conditioning, than its no longer innocent. While the 
practice of TM brings about changes in the structure of the brain, I 
don't think that it involves conditioning inthe usual sense. At best, 
one becomes confident enough that the practice IS easy to no longer 
feel a need to try to make it happen.

At worse, you assign a value-judgement to one aspect of TM practice 
to another and latch onto it as the proper practice.

Of course, im my experience, both extremes happen all the time.


 
 , but its not something you can 
  pin down with strict accuracy. Its a hiesenberg uncertainty 
 principle 
  thang: the more you try to pin it down, the less accurately you 
  capture the intent.
  
  
 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 If the particulars regarding Joel Wysong are accurate here, I'm 
sorry 
 but I'll retract my previous posts from yesterday saying he 
shouldn't 
 feel guilty or responsible over the death of Levi.
 
 If the particulars of the brief are true, he should feel VERY 
 responsible and VERY guilty.  He added horribly.


*

The responsibility was with the decision of MUM administrators not to 
involve police or security guards. A lot of people simply do not have 
the disposition to be security guards, and presumably Joel Wysong, who 
admitted being afraid of Sem when Sem was acting crazy in his house, 
was just not capable of handling the situation, so I can't fault him 
in the way that I fault MUM mgmt for their indifference to student 
welfare.  You can't expect some faculty member with no experience in 
dealing with the wild and crazy to be able to handle the situation -- 
that's why the school had security guards, that's what Fairfield cops 
are for -- it was a decision by top administrators at MUM not to 
involve any security people that was the problem.

I don't see Joel Wysong listed as faculty any more:

http://www.mum.edu/admin/faculty









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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'How Does the Intellect to Settle - During TM?'

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 I'm wondering what other experiences are.. during meditation and 
the question of arriving at the state of 'settled intellect' as was 
discussed by Maharishi in the state of Samadhi..
   As the intellect is the function of the mind to discriminate 
between 'this or that'.
   Does the intellect settle by discriminating between a thought and 
coming back to the mantra?  or 
   Does the intellect settle by discriminating between subtler 
experiences of the mantra, as it refines, or what?
   Does the intellect cease to discriminate at all, in Samadhi?
   How exactly does the the intellect become more settled, and then  
completely settled during TM ?

The intellect is a function of mental activity. One could say that it 
IS mental activity. If all mental activity ceases, then there is no 
intellect to make discriminations. 

The latest physiological theory out of MUM is something along the 
lines that samadhi is the attention-shifting mechanism of the brain. 
If that mechanism is left active without content, then you have pure 
awareness without things to discriminate about, so the existence/non-
existence/quietness/non-quietness of intellect is moot.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Follow-up for Turquoise

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
   The question is, why are you so desperate to prove
   TM isn't effortless?
  
  It might be asked (in fact I think I'll do that) why you, 
 authfriend,
  find something wrong with every single thing Turqoise says. And he
  vice-versa. It seems to never end. 
 
 It's far from every single thing on either of our parts.
 
 I'm kind of stumped, though, as to how to respond to a
 question as to why I find *some* things wrong with what
 he says.
 
 Perhaps this will help: If he stopped being such an
 arrogant phony and acquired a measure of respect for
 accuracy, I would probably find a lot fewer things
 wrong with what he says.


Of course, his reaspons would be something along the lines of if she 
stopped being an arrogant phony who *required* accuracy...

Face it: you two have an interesting relationship that likely goes 
back a long ways, if you accept reincarnation theories...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 
 FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA
 CENTRAL DIVISION
  
 ESTATE OF LEVI ANDELIN BUTLER, 
 by and through his Personal Representative, JOSHUA BUTLER,
   Plaintiff,
 v.
 MAHARISHI UNIVERSITY OF MANAGEMENT and 
 MAHARISHI VEDIC EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION,
   Defendants. )   Case No. 06-cv-00072

***
This is the heart of the complaint against MUM, and the negligence 
and indifference to student welfare is shocking:
***

SNIP
During the approximately six weeks Shuvender Sem was on the 
Maharishi University of Management campus, his appearance and 
behavior became increasingly bizarre and his attitude toward other 
students became more aggressive, threatening, and belligerent.  As 
one example, Sem threatened to kill a fellow student by bashing the 
student's head into a sink and then stomping on him while he was on 
the ground.
The change in Shuvender Sem's appearance, behavior, and attitude was 
observed by his fellow students and either was, or should have been, 
observed by Defendants.  
E.  The Attacks on March 1, 2004
On Monday, March 1, 2004, Shuvender Sem attended an afternoon class 
at Maharishi University of Management at which several University 
staff persons were present.  These persons included Samuel Boothby, 
Chris Jones, and Susan Dillbeck.  Susan Dillbeck is a member of the 
University's Board of Trustees.  About a dozen other students were 
also in attendance.  
The class had just finished meditating and was watching a video of 
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, when Shuvender Sem became agitated, stood up, 
and began making strange gestures.  Eventually, he left the room for 
a few minutes.  When he returned, he stood behind a student named 
John Killian.
Suddenly and without provocation, Sem began screaming obscenities 
and stabbed John Killian in the face and throat with a pen.  
The classroom attack on John Killian occurred at approximately 2:30 
p.m.
Fortunately, John Killian was able to deflect the pen slightly with 
his hand, possibly saving his own life.  The pen punctured his hand, 
chin, and throat, and left a red ink scratch across his throat.
A fellow student named Akbar Nazary grabbed Shuvender Sem and 
stopped the attack.
John Killian was taken to a restroom by Maharishi University of 
Management staff, advised that he probably did not need stitches, 
given a bandage, and encouraged to return to class.  His repeated 
requests to be taken to someone qualified to determine whether he 
needed stitches were turned down.
John Killian was then asked by University staff to meet with 
Shuvender Sem so that Sem could apologize.  Staff members, who 
included Chris Jones and Samuel Boothby, represented that the reason 
Sem had attacked Killian was that Sem had been meditating improperly.
Shuvender Sem's apology, which was prompted by Samuel Boothby, was 
delivered with a flat expression in a monotone voice, and with no 
indication of genuine remorse.
Samuel Boothby then asked John Killian if he was ready to return to 
class.  Killian could not believe Boothby was serious.
John Killian returned to the classroom where he had been attacked to 
retrieve his books.  When he re-entered the room, some of the 
students were still in shock and some were crying.  Rather than 
attending to the needs of the students, Susan Dillbeck and other 
Maharishi University of Management staff continued to run the 
videotape and attempted to act as though nothing had happened.  
Susan Dillbeck insisted that the students focus their attention on 
the lecture.
Ultimately, John Killian drove himself to a hospital, where he 
received multiple stitches.  When he described how he had been 
injured and reported the excuse given by Maharishi University of 
Management staff that Shuvender Sem had simply been meditating 
improperly, the treating doctor responded, In the real world, we 
call that assault and battery, and people go to jail for it.
Immediately after the attack, student witnesses advised University 
Staff that Shuvender Sem had acted in a bizarre and aggressive 
manner on previous occasions and had demonstrated clear signs of 
schizophrenia, including a claim that he was being followed by a 
black cat. 
Meanwhile, Maharishi University of Management officials, including 
Executive Vice President Craig Pearson and Dean of Men Joel Wysong, 
were informed of Shuvender Sem's attack on John Killian.
Dr. Robert Boyer, a clinical psychologist and member of the 
University faculty, was contacted.  He advised that Shuvender Sem 
was dangerous, should be kept off campus, and needed to be evaluated 
by a psychiatrist immediately.
University officials decided not to arrange a psychiatric evaluation 
of Shuvender Sem.
Defendants knew or should have known that Shuvender Sem was a menace 
to the safety of others and that it was foreseeable he might attack 
someone else without warning or provocation.
In direct violation of the University's Campus

[FairfieldLife] Re: MUM lawsuit

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, markmeredith2002 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@ wrote:
 
  It's the same way of thinking, though. The idea that we know 
more
 than 
  they do about what's good for them. If you talk to people on
 campus about 
  why they are there, you will get almost as many answers as there 
are
 people. 
  Everyone has their own reasons. Instead of talking about people
 needing to 
  be liberated and shaken up, wouldn't it be more mature to 
simply
 honor the 
  decision that MUM folks have made about how they want to live and 
what 
  they want to devote themselves to? 
 
 The driving mission of MUM is get everyone else in the world to do 
the
 tm program and no other meditation or guru related activities, tear
 down their house and build only according to S-ved, go only to
 Maharishi approved doctors, and generally liberate them from their
 unenlightened existence. 


Nope,the driving mission of MUM is to keep everyone in the Domes on 
the program and entice other people to move there and participate as 
well. The driving mission of many of the *people* (including the 
administration) may be what you say, but that's not the official goal 
of MUM. Unfortunately, its hard to separate one goal from the other.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: The Ides of March Attachment Test :-)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
  You might not be interested in taking a writing class and 
  learning how to really say what you want to say in a very 
  precise way, maybe that wouldn't suit your style, but you 
  do seem very chameleonlike in your posts, always kinda sorta 
  changing your pt of view.
 
 Thank you. I take that as a sign that I'm doing
 something right.


A follower of Allister C in this regard?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread Rick Archer

on 3/14/06 5:12 PM, bbrigante at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You can't expect some faculty member with no experience in
 dealing with the wild and crazy to be able to handle the situation --
 that's why the school had security guards, that's what Fairfield cops
 are for -- it was a decision by top administrators at MUM not to
 involve any security people that was the problem.

I wonder how high up the decision was made.
 
 I don't see Joel Wysong listed as faculty any more:
 
 http://www.mum.edu/admin/faculty

I think he's a caretaker at Livingston Manor or something these days. I may
be wrong about that but I seeming to remember hearing something of that
nature. I'll bet he's glad he got that Ph.D.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread jyouells2000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 3/14/06 3:30 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@
  wrote:
  
  IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA
  CENTRAL DIVISION
   
  ESTATE OF LEVI ANDELIN BUTLER,
  by and through his Personal Representative, JOSHUA BUTLER,
  Plaintiff,
  v.
  MAHARISHI UNIVERSITY OF MANAGEMENT and
  MAHARISHI VEDIC EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION,
  Defendants. ) Case No. 06-cv-00072
  
  
 This whole document is worth reading. Certain things jumped out at
me, such
 as Suzy Dillbeck trying to get students upset about the pen attack -
some
 still crying - to forget about what had just happened and focus on a
 Maharishi tape. Apparently she had the principle of the 2nd element
in mind,
 which has often been used as a tactic to alienate people from what
they're
 actually experiencing.


Yep, saw that too, but I thought the democracy and grant comment was
out of place and put there for possible future litigation.

JohnY 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 If the particulars regarding Joel Wysong are accurate here, I'm sorry 
 but I'll retract my previous posts from yesterday saying he shouldn't 
 feel guilty or responsible over the death of Levi.
 
 If the particulars of the brief are true, he should feel VERY 
 responsible and VERY guilty.  He added horribly.


The truth usually lies between extremes. At the least, it may force 
radical changes inhow MUM operates, hopefully for the better.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ 
 wrote:
 
  If the particulars regarding Joel Wysong are accurate here, I'm 
 sorry 
  but I'll retract my previous posts from yesterday saying he 
 shouldn't 
  feel guilty or responsible over the death of Levi.
  
  If the particulars of the brief are true, he should feel VERY 
  responsible and VERY guilty.  He added horribly.
 
 
 TYPO: I meant to write He acted horribly.


It actually still makes sense: He added horribly [to the mess].





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 shempmcgurk@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunshine@ 
  wrote:
  
   Which article are you referring to, Shemp?
   
   Sal
  
  
  Although they didn't copy and paste from the brief to my posting, 
 I 
  am referring to articles 57-63
  
  Articles 57-63 are reproduced here (sorry, without the numbering):
  
  Shuvender Sem was placed in the custody of Joel Wysong, the Dean 
 of 
  Men.
  Joel Wysong took Shuvender Sem to Mr. Wysong's apartment on 
campus.
  At his residence, Joel Wysong observed Shuvender Sem standing in 
 the 
  kitchen, turning in circles, waving his arms, clapping his hands, 
  and muttering to himself as he looked toward the ceiling. 
  Joel Wysong feared for his personal safety while Shuvender Sem 
was 
  at his residence.
  Joel Wysong left Shuvender Sem in the kitchen while Wysong 
 retreated 
  to another room to meditate.  He could hear Sem rummaging in 
 drawers 
  in the kitchen.
  When Joel Wysong finished meditating, he discovered Shuvender Sem 
  was missing.  Wysong did not speak to Campus Security or notify 
  local law enforcement.  Instead, he decided to try to find Sem 
  himself.
  Joel Wysong checked several locations before finding Shuvender 
Sem 
  at the student dining hall on campus.  Rather than remove Sem 
from 
  the dining hall or request assistance from Campus Security or 
 local 
  law enforcement, Wysong decided to allow Sem to mingle with other 
  students.  Wysong did nothing to protect the students from Sem.  
  Instead he sat some distance away from Sem.  He did not keep Sem 
  under observation.
 
 
 Wysong feared for his personal safety and then he left him alone 
 to go and meditate!!
 
 Then he heard Sem rummaging in drawers in the kitchen.
 
 And he allowed Sem to mingle with other students.
 
 Sorry, if all this is true, then Wysong is incredibly negilgent and 
 responsible...not that this removes liablity from the university 
 because Wysong is its employee.  But, sorry, if true, Wysong is a 
 total schmuck.

A few things don't quite make sense: if Wysong felt he was in 
personal danger why did he go to another room and meditate (unless he 
thinks his Maharishi effect of one was sufficient protection or 
something)?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread jyouells2000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 fairfieldlife@ wrote:
 
  on 3/14/06 4:05 PM, feste37 at feste37@ wrote:
  
   For God's sake, she was just doing her best as she saw it,
  
  Of course she was. Everyone does.
  
  not using a 
   tactic  
   to alienate people from what they're experiencing.
  
  That wasn't her intention, but that's often the net effect of the 
 TMO
  approach to dealing with negativity.
 
 
 
 
 The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
 Someone was just stabbed and Dillbeck's response is to go on with 
 the lecture?  Talk about sweeping a problem under the rug!
 
 
 
 
  
  You always take the most
   negative interpretation possible, while posing as an impartial, 
 detached
   observer. 
  
  What I'm suggesting is that many of the ways we've been taught in 
 the TMO to
  deal with various situations are actually quite unhealthy and lead 
 to very
  unnatural, out-of-touch, and in this case, fatal ways of thinking, 
 feeling,
  and behaving.
 
 
 Yes, fatal.
 
 Sadly, the Butler affair was the culmination of and fruits of a 
 pathology that had become the norm in TMO culture: manipulate the 
 environment in order to further the goals of the Movement.  In this 
 case, it was: ignore an actual crime because to not do so would be 
 to suggest that crime can actually occur in a TM environment.  To 
 not do so would mean reporting the crime and unfavorably skewering 
 crime statistics that would disprove the Maharishi Effect.
 
 Not at all the fault of the actual TM Technique but, yes, a fault of 
 those TMO institutions and those that run them -- from MMY on down --
 for perpetuating those pathologies.
 
 In addition to representing a valid complaint of the Levi Butler 
 Estate, I found the brief to be, on the whole, a fair and timely and 
 MUCH NEEDED critique of the TMO culture.
 
 It should be widely dissseminated and read by everyone in the 
 Movement!


  They ignored the psychologist's recommendation. Fatal mistake.

Dr. Robert Boyer, a clinical psychologist and member of the
University faculty, was contacted.  He advised that Shuvender Sem
was dangerous, should be kept off campus, and needed to be evaluated
by a psychiatrist immediately.
University officials decided not to arrange a psychiatric evaluation
of Shuvender Sem

JohnY





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread wayback71

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ 
 wrote:
 
  If the particulars regarding Joel Wysong are accurate here, I'm 
 sorry 
  but I'll retract my previous posts from yesterday saying he 
 shouldn't 
  feel guilty or responsible over the death of Levi.
  
  If the particulars of the brief are true, he should feel VERY 
  responsible and VERY guilty.  He added horribly.
 
 
 *
 
 The responsibility was with the decision of MUM administrators not to 
 involve police or security guards. A lot of people simply do not have 
 the disposition to be security guards, and presumably Joel Wysong, who 
 admitted being afraid of Sem when Sem was acting crazy in his house, 
 was just not capable of handling the situation, so I can't fault him 
 in the way that I fault MUM mgmt for their indifference to student 
 welfare.  You can't expect some faculty member with no experience in 
 dealing with the wild and crazy to be able to handle the situation -- 
 that's why the school had security guards, that's what Fairfield cops 
 are for -- it was a decision by top administrators at MUM not to 
 involve any security people that was the problem.

  Yes, or to take Sem to the emergency room of a hospital so he could get 
proper care and 
treatment. I can't imagine why they even thought it ok to put him on a plane 
home the 
next day!!! Can you imagine how angry his parents must feel?  Their son was so 
obviously 
sick, and no one took him to a hospital, or had the police evaluate him. SO he 
was left to 
act out his craziness and his life is ruined and some poor great kid is dead.  
I suspect Joel 
and his administrative peers thought they were being kind in not calling the 
police,but that 
is not kindness.  What I wonder is who told Joel to watch Sem, alone?   My 
guess is that it 
was time for everyone to meditate, so Joel was left alone and did not want to 
ask for help. 
And why in the world did Joel meditate when his job was to monitor an unstable 
student?  
There are times when you have to skip your TM, even if it is not convenient.  
(I will never 
forget one couple who locked thier new baby in a room for an hour and a half 
each 
mornbign and evening in the late 70's while they did their long flying 
program together. 
The child screamed and screamed and this went on for months, but they believed 
TM 
came first.)
 I don't see Joel Wysong listed as faculty any more:

  Joel is no longer on the faculty.  He left over a year ago to become either a 
raja or one of 
the recerts who runs an area on the east coast (maybe somewhere in New YOrk 
state, even perhaps the Livingston manor area)
 
 http://www.mum.edu/admin/faculty







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ 
 wrote:
 
  If the particulars regarding Joel Wysong are accurate here, I'm 
 sorry 
  but I'll retract my previous posts from yesterday saying he 
 shouldn't 
  feel guilty or responsible over the death of Levi.
  
  If the particulars of the brief are true, he should feel VERY 
  responsible and VERY guilty.  He added horribly.
 
 
 *
 
 The responsibility was with the decision of MUM administrators not 
to 
 involve police or security guards. A lot of people simply do not 
have 
 the disposition to be security guards, and presumably Joel Wysong, 
who 
 admitted being afraid of Sem when Sem was acting crazy in his 
house, 
 was just not capable of handling the situation, so I can't fault 
him 
 in the way that I fault MUM mgmt for their indifference to student 
 welfare.  You can't expect some faculty member with no experience 
in 
 dealing with the wild and crazy to be able to handle the 
situation -- 
 that's why the school had security guards, that's what Fairfield 
cops 
 are for -- it was a decision by top administrators at MUM not to 
 involve any security people that was the problem.
 
 I don't see Joel Wysong listed as faculty any more:
 
 http://www.mum.edu/admin/faculty



Good points, Bob, but how a reasonable person -- even someone not 
trained in the security guard rts --  could fear for his personal 
safety, hear the person placed in his care who just stabbed 
someone rummage in drawers in his kitchen, leave him alone, let 
him leave the residence and then mingle with other students is, 
simply, beyond the pale.

Sorry, but Wysong is at fault.  Not as much as the administrators 
who put Sem in his care and did not call the police but responsible 
none-the-less.

And it's a good thing Wysong is not listed as faculty anymore.  He 
doesn't deserve to be.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[...]
 
   They ignored the psychologist's recommendation. Fatal mistake.
 
 Dr. Robert Boyer, a clinical psychologist and member of the
 University faculty, was contacted.  He advised that Shuvender Sem
 was dangerous, should be kept off campus, and needed to be evaluated
 by a psychiatrist immediately.
 University officials decided not to arrange a psychiatric evaluation
 of Shuvender Sem
 
 JohnY


Since the insurance company is handling things, they many INSIST that 
bevan go...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

[...]
 
 
 Good points, Bob, but how a reasonable person -- even someone not 
 trained in the security guard rts --  could fear for his personal 
 safety, hear the person placed in his care who just stabbed 
 someone rummage in drawers in his kitchen, leave him alone, let 
 him leave the residence and then mingle with other students is, 
 simply, beyond the pale.
 
 Sorry, but Wysong is at fault.  Not as much as the administrators 
 who put Sem in his care and did not call the police but responsible 
 none-the-less.
 
 And it's a good thing Wysong is not listed as faculty anymore.  He 
 doesn't deserve to be.


He then went into another room to meditate. Was this portrayal 
accurate in the first place, or was he so gung-ho Maharishi Effect 
that he thought he would be protected if he was meditating?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
  snip
What I'm contending is that only when TM is 100
percent effortless is one actually practicing TM.
So in a given session, I may be practicing TM only
for a portion of that session.
   
   I would say, rather, that as long as you have the understanding
   that no effort is *required*, that your practice of TM, no 
matter 
   if 100% effortless, or only 97.3% effortless (or whatever), is 
   still a valid TM session.
  
  This isn't rather.  I would agree: as long as *some* 
  percentage of a session is effortless, it's a valid
  TM session.  By which I mean, any session of which a
  portion is TM (i.e., effortless) is a TM session.
 
 But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless
 so what is the difference then?

*If* some portion is effortless, then it's de facto TM,
whatever it may be called.  For the differences, you'd
have to determine relative percentages of the sessions
that were effortless vs. with effort, plus compare the
results over time.

 MMY has set up a training procedure that 
 helps bring people to a state of letting better than 
 concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their 
 practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting 
 rid of effort!

Right, diligence is not what's needed.

I'm not criticizing people who are inadvertently
using effort.  I'm criticizing the view that TM
*requires* effort.

 And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the 
 effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that 
 they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.

Well, yes, assigning a value judgment is definitely
assigning a value judgment.  duh

I'm not assigning a value judgment, however.  That's
a different issue.  All I'm saying is: *This* is TM
(effortless) and *that* is not TM (some effort).

   Assigning value judgements to your 
   practice isn't the best way to spend your time...
  
  Right.  Were you thinking that this is what I do?
 
 Sure sounds like.

Wrongo.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Follow-up for Turquoise

2006-03-14 Thread authfriend

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:

 Just a couple of points:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti 
 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  I agree. Actually, I was just trying to poke some fun on 
  the 'walking meditation' supposedly more effortless than 
  TM according to some here.
 
 The meditation *component* of it is, IMO, more
 effortless than TM, in that there is no specific
 intent -- no mantra, no instruction to focus on 
 anything in particular, nada.

There is no specific intent during TM, either (much
less instruction to focus on anything in particular).
   
   Well, there's almost a specific intent inherent in the 
 instructions 
   (else, why call them instructions?)
  
  There's a case to be made that they *aren't*
  instructions, actually...
  
  In any case, I would contend that after a certain
  amount of practice, you aren't doing anything that
  could be called following instructions.  Vaj calls
  it conditioning, and that may be an appropriate
  term.  In which case, there's intent only to the
  point where you sit down and close the eyes, then
  the conditioning takes over.
 
 If its really conditioning, than its no longer innocent. While the 
 practice of TM brings about changes in the structure of the brain,
 I don't think that it involves conditioning inthe usual sense.

No, I don't either.  I can't think of a better term
offhand, though.

 At best, 
 one becomes confident enough that the practice IS easy to no longer 
 feel a need to try to make it happen.

I could buy that.  And once that's the case, it *does*
happen--effortlessly.




 At worse, you assign a value-judgement to one aspect of TM practice 
 to another and latch onto it as the proper practice.
 
 Of course, im my experience, both extremes happen all the time.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread Rick Archer

on 3/14/06 5:39 PM, wayback71 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I can't imagine why they even thought it ok to put him on a plane
 home the 
 next day!!! 

He probably wouldn't have been allowed on a plane in this post-9/11 world.
Or even prior to 9/11, if he was that obviously crazy.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Iowa complaint -- Butler case

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj


On Mar 14, 2006, at 4:30 PM, jyouells2000 wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
  FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA
  CENTRAL DIVISION
 
  ESTATE OF LEVI ANDELIN BUTLER,
  by and through his Personal Representative, JOSHUA BUTLER,
Plaintiff,
  v.
  MAHARISHI UNIVERSITY OF MANAGEMENT and
  MAHARISHI VEDIC EDUCATION DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION,
Defendants.  )  Case No. 06-cv-00072
 

 Among the many disturbing, sad and negligent things presented here,
 (if it's accurate) almost as an aside.   I wonder if it may have
 repercusions in Federal law and the real reason it's in the complaint.


 (i) That democracy is a cruel form of government.
 The University's website boasts that it has received more than $32
 million in federal and other grants.  Defendants are exempt from
 paying federal taxes


 I knew this would come back around...


There's probably more things than we can imagine.

Remember the guy from Saudi Arabia a while back who was trying to get  
into this country using the MUM computer program to get here? I  
wonder how many have got in that way who had mal-intent? Lay in wait  
for the infidel and all that...? Bizarre.


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?

2006-03-14 Thread Vaj

On Mar 14, 2006, at 6:05 PM, sparaig wrote:But even someportion of some concentrative technique is effortless so what is the difference then? MMY has set up a training procedure that helps bring people to a state of "letting" better than concentration, but if someone using some slight effort in their practice, that's how it is. You can't be dilligent about getting rid of effort! And to me, assigning a value-judgement to the effortlessness/non-effortlessness of their practice, assuming that they follow the instructions, is definitely a value-judgement.Here's some more evidence of subtle effort for positive support of the practice of TM (from an old post here). It actually involved your post. These are classic elements of mindfulness (Rick uses the word "attentiveness") to prevent laxity, a common, helpful element in numerous forms of meditation:[FairfieldLife] TM Laxity, was: For Vaj Re:Pitta-aggravating mantrasRick ArcherSat, 25 Jun 2005 09:32:08 -0700on 6/25/05 9:49 AM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be interesting to hear others experiences in the area of TM and laxity. Well, aside from the advice given that people who find themselves sleeping a lot during TM should sleep more BEFORE TM? BTW, I go through periods where I sleep a lot during program, and periods where I don't seem to sleep much. What is your explanation for that other than MMY's, that the condition of my nervous system is different from time to time?On the Santa Barbara ATR (winter 71-72) I told M that I fell asleep in mostof my meditations. He said "Some physical weakness. Try to remove thecause."On my 6 month course (Courcheval, Spring-Fall 1975) M said that he was goingto try to turn us into yogis in 6 months. Two things he recommended werecold baths and sitting up without back support in meditation. I think bothof these, especially the latter, were prescriptions to combat laxity. (Healso said we were in a race or a contest to see who could purify thefastest, and to help us he had us fasting and trying all sorts of healersbrought in from around Europe).I think the no effort thing is most relevant to grosser levels ofexperience, i.e., new meditators. At subtle levels effort also isn'tappropriate, but attentiveness is. The advanced technique where you focus onthe heart area is certainly a form of attentiveness. I also find that somegentle attentiveness vs. allowing the mind to just mess around makes a bigdifference in terms of clarity and frequency of transcending.At Estes Park, M quoted the Vedas as saying, "Be easy to us with gentleeffort."

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Self-doubt and cynicism vs. profound trust - the role of surrender as the fo

2006-03-14 Thread Nelson

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Nelson nelsonriddle2001@
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, defenders_of_bhakti
  no_reply@ wrote:
  
   
   I think there is a big confusion of what evolution actually means.
   Here some biological definitions:
   
   Evolution: The long-term process through which a population of
   organisms accumulates genetic changes that enable its members to
   successfully adapt to environmental conditions and to better exploit
   food resources.
   www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEPC/WWC/1994/glossary.html
   
   The change in life over time by adaptation, variation,
   over-reproduction, and differential survival/reproduction, a process
   referred to by Charles Darwin and Alfred Wallace as natural
selection.
   http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookglossE.html
   
   In this sense evolution is not the development to a certain
   pre-existent goal, but rather the successful adaptaion to a given
   environment by a certain organism. Thhis is what trial and error and
   natural selection is all about. This makes the idea of an evolving
   Creator-God fairly upsurd: How could a Creator adapt to an
   environment, he has created himself? It is even more absurd if you
   assume an all-knowing God going through trial and error. Pretty much
   trial and error can be done by machines, and doesn't require a
creator
   at all. That is why evolution, the theory of natural selection is so
   much opposed by the creationists.
   
   Now one can of course try to transfer the idea of evolution to a
sort
   of teleological argument, and that is what many New Agers do.
There is
   a goal, a pre-existent ideal to which nature develops. But if God
   himself develops, who established the ideal, was it already there or
   did he create it? And if he created the ideal, why didn't s/he
create
   the ideal creation right away?
   
   I think one gets into a big muddle if one tries to combine
   evolutionary theories which really don't need any God (like
trial and
   error) with creationist ideas. Why should a God evolve, unless
he has
   fallen, and is now involved in his own creation? Of course one could
   argue, we are all God, and we are all evolving to finally
realize this
   potential of ours.
   
   Otherwise its a really absurd idea, with the sort of populistic
   appeal, the same as that we are all co-creators. It just makes some
   people feel more important.
   +++ Haven't you observed that you do some creating yourself?  N.
 
 For me rather anticipation in creation.

+++ Thru your choices, you have created yourself.   N.   





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Why does T/M cost so much to join? A little help?