[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[John]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
  art of telling of this subject.  
 
 I consider it merely another way of telling.
 Telling stories.
 
 As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
 any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
 Are they entertaining?
 
 If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
 and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
 for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
 
  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
  and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
  on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
  etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
  Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
  subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
 people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
 
 My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
 of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
 as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
 themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
 catering to the perceived desires of the paying
 clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
 fulfilling.
 
 Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
 of the rear view mirror variety IMO -- saying
 after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
 Raju was up Uranus. 
 
 But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
 being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
 that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
 are some) to make several near-future predictions
 -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
 falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
 allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
 Jyotish to predict the future.
 
 On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject
 of seeing the future has never been good, because
 I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
 wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
 do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
 that one is in more control of one's life than is
 really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
 
 You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
 gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
 these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
 with moon in Fresno.  :-)


Barry, what is your birth date, time and place?  You've got us curious now.  Is 
it possible to get the true facts from you at least once?

[FairfieldLife] Walking On Water: It's not just for Jesus any more!

[TurquoiseB]

OK, here is what Edg has been waiting for...real video 
footage of real siddhis being performed. Kinda.

There is no question about it. These guys (South African, 
I would guess, based on their names and accents) really 
are walking on water. Running, actually. Pretty neat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ry2aG9QES0

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[John]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is needed 
to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.

Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxAZRvw2HxYfeature=PlayListp=C871270CB37BE8A4playnext=1playnext_from=PLindex=20

JR

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
   art of telling of this subject.  
  
  I consider it merely another way of telling.
  Telling stories.
  
  As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
  any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
  Are they entertaining?
  
  If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
  and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
  for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
  
   No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
   and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
   etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
   Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
   subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
  people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
  
  My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
  of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
  as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
  themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
  catering to the perceived desires of the paying
  clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
  fulfilling.
  
  Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
  of the rear view mirror variety IMO -- saying
  after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
  Raju was up Uranus. 
  
  But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
  being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
  that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
  are some) to make several near-future predictions
  -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
  falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
  allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
  Jyotish to predict the future.
  
  On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject
  of seeing the future has never been good, because
  I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
  wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
  do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
  that one is in more control of one's life than is
  really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
  
  You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
  gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
  these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
  with moon in Fresno.  :-)
 
 
 Barry, what is your birth date, time and place?  You've 
 got us curious now.  Is it possible to get the true facts 
 from you at least once?

You've got *us* curious? Have you got a mouse 
in your pocket, or do you suffer from multiple
personality disorder?  :-)

No way, Jose. You're the one who keeps bailing
on my challenges, so you first.

YOU make one non-vague, specific, naming names, 
clearly falsifiable prediction. It has to be 
something that will either happen or not happen
in the next month, and be reported in the news,
so that we can verify it. The sun's going to
rise or Somebody famous is going to die is 
not a suitable candidate for the prediction.  :-)

After you've done that, and we've had time to
see whether your prediction happens or not, 
I'll send you my birth data. 

Deal?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


It's rubbish. An iron age hangover that people cling to for
comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than take responsibility 
or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
of the naked eye, which must render them highly innacurate. 
Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent is 
gravity and the planets are so far away that they have less 
effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try factoring *that* into 
your horoscope!

Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
of birth? Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
was a month premature, could anyone have predicted it? No. The personality 
evolves over time with hormonal changes, interactions with others and our 
inbuilt genetic ability to cope with difficulty.

But bear in mind I do have Jupiter in my fifth house so I'm 
naturally a bit sceptical.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
  of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up 
  there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the 
  inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good 
  or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 
 Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
 needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.

The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed)the 
whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.

If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
a stationary earth that they don't have!

And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as we 
move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.

If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?


 Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:

Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
planets affect our everyday lives.



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxAZRvw2HxYfeature=PlayListp=C871270CB37BE8A4playnext=1playnext_from=PLindex=20
 
 JR

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
   telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun 
   is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
   Good or bad. 
What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  
  Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
  needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.
 
 The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
 anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
 is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
 were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
 that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
 The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
 understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
 is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
 and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed

Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)

In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of thought (that is to 
say, there is NO ONE official jytotish doctrine) and not that I recall make a 
case for it being a field effect 

designating or of an electronic component or device, esp. a transistor, 
controlled by an external electric field

That may be your hypothesis as to what the core of jyotish is and you are 
welcome to present your model. 

I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general type and timing of 
events in ones life. (this may be attributed to individual's karma but karma 
is a loaded word and without precise definition is guaranteed to lead 
discussions astray. Is a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a 
watch? Why so then with jyotish?

As to whether jyotish has any power beyond random chance of identifying the 
type and timing of karma is certainly valid -- and there are no valid modern 
statistical studies on it so abundant skepticism is warranted. Personally, as a 
tool for general descriptions of type and timing of the unfoldment of events in 
my life -- it has more than not been uncanny -- though with a fair amount of 
noise surrounding the signal. Not a proof -- but I don't have one for any of 
number of other things that work in my life. 



)the whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
 extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.

So your model and explanation of jyotish doesn't hold water. I might 
focus on your having the wrong model, than making wild claims about the 
inaacuracy of Jyotish bsimply ecause your personal model of jytish is flawed. 

 
 If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
 take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
 they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
 a stationary earth that they don't have!
 
 And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
 going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as we 
 move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
 at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
 reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.

And why is it nonesense? Again because in your personal unvalidated model , it 
doesn't make sense? Hardly a strong case against real world jyotish, though 
clearly a strong case agaisnt figment of ones imagination jytoish. :)
 
 If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
 of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?

Amongst other things, you appear to blur your straw dogs. Would a study of 
astrology (as in some perhaps on particular branch of western astrology) 
invalidate jyotish. And which school of jyotish. Does invalidating one 
invalidate all others?  
 
 
  Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:
 
 Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
 explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
 planets affect our everyday lives.
 

Again, who, besides what is happening inside your head, said that planets 
affect ones life? Yes, that does sound presposterous. But who said it? I can 
make parallel claims that the sun is making a clock tick. And then claim 
because that's preposterous, clockmaking is a foul preposterous scam. But then, 
if I did that, I wouldn't be making much sense, would I?
   
 
 
  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
  of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up 
  there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the 
  inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good 
  or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 
 It's rubbish. 

Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or actual 
jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?

An iron age hangover that people cling to for
 comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,

who is blaming stars? and on what basis? That would be a preposterous thing to 
do. Lock the loony up. Now back to a discussion about actual jyotish .. 


 karma etc than take responsibility 

or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 

And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you mean 
you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work on a 
practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical evidence 
that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages -- :)


 and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

Again, citations please. What journal are you  quoting? 

 
 They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
 because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
 of the naked eye, 


And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system that 
works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think should be in 
my model, why in heavens name does that, in itself, invalidate the model that I 
have developed? 

If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, the 
New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever you want 
to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have anything to 
do with another person's model an its validity?


 which must render them highly innacurate. 

I know! and the fact that they don't include the New York Yankees makes it even 
MORE inaccuruate. 

 Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent is 
 gravity and the planets are so far away that they have less 
 effect on you than a truck driving by your house. 

OK. But what does that have to do with Jyotish? 

 Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!

I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring today's top film, 
or who won the most seats in parliment. 

 
 Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
 of birth? 

I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?  But odd interjections 
aside, now, back to the discussion at hand about jyotish .. 

?Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
 was a month premature, 

Why in the world would your past prarabdha karma change if your were born 
immature, I mean premature?  That's as crazy as saying my watch was set back an 
hour, therefore I really don't have to pay the bank my mortgage. Where is there 
any connection?
 

 could anyone have predicted it? No. The personality evolves over time with 
 hormonal changes, interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability to 
 cope with difficulty.
 
 But bear in mind I do have Jupiter in my fifth house so I'm 
 naturally a bit sceptical.

Are you sure its not Uranus? :)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
  understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
  is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
  and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
  proposed
 
 Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
 
 In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
 thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
 doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
 field effect 

Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.

So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!

:-)

 I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
 type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
 to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
 precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
 a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
 Why so then with jyotish?

Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
of events in one's life, and using them to predict
the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
come up 'heads.'  :-)

The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
probably not even a very good map, since it relies
on cartography skills from a time long before paper
had been invented to draw the charts on.

Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
  art of telling of this subject.  
 
 I consider it merely another way of telling.
 Telling stories.
 
 As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
 any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
 Are they entertaining?
 
 If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
 and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
 for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
 
  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
  and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
  on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
  etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
  Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
  subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
 people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
 
 My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
 of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
 as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
 themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
 catering to the perceived desires of the paying
 clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
 fulfilling.

Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in Jyotish? How 
many years of study and practice? Or are you just shooting the breeze about 
some casual observation you may have had years ago? Nothing wrong with shooting 
the breeze. 

 
 Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
 of the rear view mirror 

I hope you are not creating super strawmen here and equating actual  jyotish 
with some loosey goosey meanderings of LV postings?


 variety IMO -- saying
 after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
 Raju was up Uranus. 

Yes, there is a whole lot of crap spewed by dimestore practicioners and 
charlatans using jyotish as a facade for their fantasies. But people do that 
with physics -- and such practice hardly invalidates physics.  (And of course 
this is an analogy about facades --  jyotish clearly is not physics). 

 
  But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
 being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
 that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
 are some) to make several near-future predictions
 -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
 falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
 allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
 Jyotish to predict the future.

So you are talking about a fairly obscure branch of jyotish used to make world 
predictions. OK. Thats a fun topic to investigate. But it has little to do 
with jyotish as a map of type and timing of events in ones individual life -- 
which is the vastly larger practice of jyotish. I hope by disproving the 
former, you hare not seriously claiming such disproves the latter. (not that 
there are not vast charlatan claims of the latter that cannot easily be 
disproved)
 
 On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject


tuds are fine. But what do they have to do with reality?

 of seeing the future has never been good, because
 I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
 wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
 do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
 that one is in more control of one's life than is
 really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
 
 You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
 gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
 these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
 with moon in Fresno.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
   proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
  
  In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
  thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
  doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
  field effect 
 
 Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
 right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
 The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
 caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
 
 So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
 
 :-)
 
  I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
  type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
  to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
  precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
  a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
  Why so then with jyotish?
 
 Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
 of events in one's life, and using them to predict
 the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
 was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
 a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
 come up 'heads.'  :-)

Well, you provide some nice poetic balance in making flippant remarks about 
flipping coins. And of course Jyotish, particularly the charlatan facade of 
jyotish many hallucinate to verbalize some of their fantasies can be rightly 
lambasted for well, many yugas. :) 

And in your spirit of jest, I realize you are making fun (fun is good, in fact 
fun is excellent) of my personal description of jytotish. And descriptions are 
hardly proofs. But if you are postulating that some heads are flipped out, I 
totally agree. (But mind you, I am not offering my agreement as a proof).

 
 The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
 probably not even a very good map, since it relies
 on cartography skills from a time long before paper
 had been invented to draw the charts on.

By which logic, sailing in boats is a false artifact of misguided, heathen, 
middle-ages neanderthal charlatans. 

 
 Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)


Is Uranus transiting your ascendant in Sagittarius?  Even if nudity is a 
protected right in spain, we (my mouse and I) do hope you keep Uranus covered. 
And keep it away from ascendants. Well, no, that's as archaic a notion as boats 
sailing. Party on. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
   
Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the 
sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, 
being on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
etc.
Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
Good or bad. 
 What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
Please tell, oh great one!..?
   
   
   Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
   needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.
  
  The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
  anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
  is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
  were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
  that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
  The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
  understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
  is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
  and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed
 
 Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)

John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: MMY's utter corruption as a human being exposed

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote:
 
  http://tmfree.blogspot.com/2010/05/david-wants-to-fly-very-personal-
  review.html
  
  Great interview inspired by the coherence in the film
  David Wants to Fly.
 
 Not an interview. A completely unsolicited email,
 according to Gina at the TM-Free blog.


Yeah, Interesting tack the person is taking.  If for real, pity the poor 
innervated person.  Then, considering the unsolicited  'Anonymous' authoring, 
it reads more like a christian nut trying real hard to defame or something that 
Gina as an activist denier has made up to splash on her blog.  Considering the 
source.
 

 
 Vaj isn't feeling too coherent himself today, it seems.
 
 snip
  (...) I considered Maharishi to be my saviour and master.
  And my body and mind were so profoundly deceived by the
  mystical forces that create the experiences of TM that I
  at one point was certain I had achieved a higher state of
  consciousness.
 
 The mystical forces that create the experiences of TM.
 
 Hmmm. Wonder who could be behind those forces?
 
 Could it be...
 
 ...SATAN??
 
 My point here is to declare my wonder and astonishment
 that this documentary seemed silently to enlist those
 beneficent powers inside the cosmos which were
 overthrown or paralyzed by Maharishi and TMnever
 again can any follower of Maharishi repeat the TM
 catechisms without sensing a critical presence
 throughout the entire universe, a critical presence
 that has, through this film, decisively condemned
 Maharishi and the Transcendental Meditation
 Organization
 
 The friendly and lovingly intelligent forces in the
 universe colluded with his own brilliance and sincerity
 to—for the very first time—  actually take on and
 strike a blow against the baleful and malevolently
 intelligent forces which were and are behind Maharishi
 Mahesh Yogi and the Transcendental Meditation Movement
 what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has brought to
 civilization can be seen to be quite literally a
 demonic project on a gargantuan scale
 
 Jeez. The poor guy.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
   art of telling of this subject.  
  
  I consider it merely another way of telling.
  Telling stories.
  
  As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
  any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
  Are they entertaining?
  
  If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
  and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
  for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
  
   No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
   and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
   etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
   Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
   subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
  people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
  
  My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
  of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
  as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
  themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
  catering to the perceived desires of the paying
  clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
  fulfilling.
 
 Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in 
 Jyotish? How many years of study and practice? 

As a practitioner? None. As someone who has 
had Jyotish charts done for him, and listened
to the Jyotishi's predictions? Some, enough
to stand on my description of such predictions
above. I have so far encountered none more
insightful or accurate than the predictions 
a good cold reader such as Curtis talks about
could make, for anyone, without having any kind
of charts in front of them.

YMMV. Then again, if it does, I might suggest
(as a possibility, not a declaration of what
is happening) that there might be some possibility
of either self-fulfilling prophecy (believe it
will happen strongly enough, and you make it 
happen) or rose-coloured glasses (having been
told that the future will look like X, tending
to interpret even Y's as X's) going on. 

As you suggest, what is needed are scientific
tests, made against non-vague, falsifiable 
predictions. Unfortunately, many Jyotishi (and
certainly the ones on this forum) don't seem
to want to *produce* any of these non-vague,
falsifiable predictions for testing.

 Or are you just shooting the breeze about some casual observation 
 you may have had years ago? 

That, too.  :-)

 Nothing wrong with shooting the breeze. 

As if you have the ability to define wrong.  :-)

I'm just having fun with this, dude. I happen 
to *generally* believe that Jyotish is a placebo
or a cold reading phenomenon. But as I said, 
I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems to be 
the Jyotishi who are unwilling to stop using 
vague, non-specific, apply-to-anyone cold reader 
language in their predictions and give some 
scientist (or even us) some real predictions 
to work with.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 

  It's rubbish. 
 
 Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or 
 actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?

No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.

BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.
 

 An iron age hangover that people cling to for
  comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,
 
 who is blaming stars? 

Stars planets, whatever.

 
 
  karma etc than take responsibility 
 
 or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
 
 And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you 
 mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work on 
 a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical 
 evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages 
 -- :)
 
 
  and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
 
 Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 
 
  
  They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
  because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
  of the naked eye, 
 
 
 And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
 Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system that 
 works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think should be 
 in my model, why in heavens name does 
 that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 

Interesting, some serious denial going on here. If I invented
a system of prediction based on football teams the exclusion
of the yankees would be relevant in ascertaining the accuracy 
of my predictions but jyotish uses planets against a randomly
chosen backdrop of stars, if you exclude two large planets
then any predictions you make using just the others are going
to be innaccurate aren't they? Or you have to find some sort
of explanation as to why they don't have the same type of effect
that the others do. 

The system is a physical one so, unless there is a huge 
unexplainable gap in expectation derived from the unfinished 
model of the solar system jyotishees use (which you would 
obviously claim there wasn't) the outer planets don't have 
any effect on us. Which sounds suspicious to me, in the same 
order of suspicious as gravity only working on people with 
blond hair, why would nature pick and choose? If planets
are affecting or in some sort of symbiotic quantum entanglement
with the human brain (as claimed) then why only some of them?
 
 If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, the 
 New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever you 
 want to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have 
 anything to do with another person's model an its validity?
 

 
  Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!
 
 I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring 
  today's top film, or who won the most seats in parliment. 

You can factor in what you like it wouldn't be any more or less accurate. Some 
people read tea leaves or animal entrails for
christs sake! We humans have a need for omens to be real, why
I don't know, I assume it's some ancient way of making sense
of a complex world or a desperate way to give meaning to
something that has none.


  Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
  of birth? 
 
 I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?

The jyotishee I saw was most particular about me providing
as accurate a birth date as possible.

His reading, analysis and predictions were crap of course.
But the other TMers I was on a course with thought he was 
great until I pointed out the obvious errors, inconsistencies 
and repetitions in what he was telling everyone. They then 
concluded he just wasn't a very good jyotishee. But he was
one of Marshy's finest apparently. He told everyone who went
to see him that they would get enlightened ;-)

  But odd interjections aside, now, back to the discussion at hand  about 
  jyotish .. 


 
 ?Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
  was a month premature, 
 
 Why in the world would your past prarabdha karma change if your
 were born immature, I mean premature?  That's as crazy as saying my watch 
 was set back an hour, therefore I really don't have to pay the bank my 
 mortgage.

Not really, you'd still have to pay if you have a mortgage.
But jyotish is reliant on an accurate birth time, what changes
happen in the mind before and after birth that can be 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
snip
 It's rubbish. An iron age hangover

Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
remarkable achievement.

The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
superstitious only if one fails to take into account
available knowledge.

To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
such that they could predict where those objects would
be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
magnificent intellectual achievement.

Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
them.

 that people cling to for
 comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
 take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
 is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
pointed out, by no means the only one.

 They don't even use the right number of planets in the
 charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
 beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
 highly innacurate.

Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
observed or postulated correlations between how the
sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.
 
 Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
 is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
 less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
 factoring *that* into your horoscope!

But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
there's no need to infer causation.

 Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
 moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
 person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
 predicted it? No.

How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
would happen.

 The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
 interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
 to cope with difficulty.

You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.

As far as being born a month premature is concerned, what
about all the hormonal changes that would have occurred
during that month?

(What you might want to ask instead is whether you'd have
had a different personality had your mother been 
somewhere else when she gave birth to you. You don't know
that either, but it's harder to make a case for it.)

I am *not* arguing that astrology works. I agree there's
very little hard evidence for it. I just think it should
be respected as a historical achievement.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:

 
 I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general type and timing 
 of events in ones life. (this may be attributed to individual's karma but 
 karma is a loaded word and without precise definition is guaranteed to lead 
 discussions astray. Is a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of 
 a watch? Why so then with jyotish?

Because the components of a watch are in physical contact with 
each other. The planets are not physically connected to each
other and the human brain (except in King Tony's weird books)so
some sort of field is postulated by people who want it to be 
taken seriously. 

The astrological field isn't postulated by me by the way,
I think it's a symptom of having to sound sciencey to
stand any chance of convincing people to part with their money.
 
 As to whether jyotish has any power beyond random chance of identifying the 
 type and timing of karma is certainly valid -- and there are no valid modern 
 statistical studies on it so abundant skepticism is warranted. Personally, as 
 a tool for general descriptions of type and timing of the unfoldment of 
 events in my life -- it has more than not been uncanny -- though with a fair 
 amount of noise surrounding the signal. Not a proof -- but I don't have one 
 for any of number of other things that work in my life. 

Not a proof, no.


 
 )the whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
  extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.
 
 So your model and explanation of jyotish doesn't hold water. I might 
 focus on your having the wrong model, than making wild claims about the 
 inaacuracy of Jyotish bsimply ecause your personal model of jytish is flawed. 

My model is the solar system, jyotish uses things in the solar 
system but uses weird and preposterous maths to get the things in 
the solar system to behave and appear to do things they do not. 
Like move backwards and be in the same house as other things
in the solar system. Houses don't actaully exist either.
 

  If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
  take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
  they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
  a stationary earth that they don't have!
  
  And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
  going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as 
  we move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
  at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
  reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.
 
 And why is it nonesense? Again because in your personal unvalidated model , 
 it doesn't make sense? Hardly a strong case against real world jyotish, 
 though clearly a strong case agaisnt figment of ones imagination jytoish. :)
  
  If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
  of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?
 
 Amongst other things, you appear to blur your straw dogs. Would a study of 
 astrology (as in some perhaps on particular branch of western astrology) 
 invalidate jyotish. And which school of jyotish. Does invalidating one 
 invalidate all others?  

If I had the time and inclination to test more than one type
of astrology then we could be sure but how many ancient systems
of belief using weird maths and an amusingly inaccurate models
would you really need to test in order to prove they all are 
wrong? Only one really, two if you are pedantic but testing
clsses of things is good enough to see if you had any signal.

I wouldn't have to test every type of dog to see if any might be
likely to be able to breath underwater as they are all in the 
same class of things ie: things with lungs that work best in air.
Similarly, types of astrology are all of the same class of things
ie: models that involve using planets and stars to analyse and
predict things about peoples lives.

If the first test of *any* type of astrology had turned up 
interestingly statistical evidence that there was something we
couldn't predict or know about in other ways then you would
have a case for further testing and maybe even seeing which was
best at making predictions. There is no evidence and no way of
explaining it if there was so why carry on believing it?

All types tested so far are well rated by believers but have 
fallen way short of the results neccesary to warrant testing all
of them. They all work in the same way. There is no signal.


   Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:
  
  Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
  explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
  planets affect our everyday lives.
  
 
 Again, who, besides what is happening inside your head, said that planets 
 affect ones life? Yes, that does 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 snip
  It's rubbish. An iron age hangover
 
 Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
 remarkable achievement.
 
 The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
 superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
 superstitious only if one fails to take into account
 available knowledge.
 
 To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
 the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
 such that they could predict where those objects would
 be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
 magnificent intellectual achievement.
 
 Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
 reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
 it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
 correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
 them.

Entirely reasonable but, as it turns out, incorrect.
Which is good science. Bad science would be to still
believe tha the earth is the middle of the solar system
and that the sky is really divided into houses the 
position of which only some of the planets have a 
predictable affect on your life.

Other than that I quite agree that the ancients did
an amazing job of mapping the heavens and would have said
so with enough time to spend on posts. Their conclusions, 
of course, were wrong.

 
  that people cling to for
  comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
  take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
  is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
 
 Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
 pointed out, by no means the only one.

Any actual evidence to the contrary always gratefully recieved!


  They don't even use the right number of planets in the
  charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
  beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
  highly innacurate.
 
 Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
 observed or postulated correlations between how the
 sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
 What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.

Thsnks for underlining my objection.

 
  Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
  is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
  less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
  factoring *that* into your horoscope!
 
 But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
 there's no need to infer causation.

If there is a correlation there must be a cause.

 
  Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
  moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
  person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
  predicted it? No.
 
 How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
 would happen.
 
  The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
  interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
  to cope with difficulty.
 
 You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
 would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
 personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.

The onjection I have is that the position of planets
can mirror/casue/map/predict/whatever any thing that
has ever happened or will happen in my life. I don't believe 
it and have seen no evidence that it's possible.

I am always happy to hand over my birth details to anyone who'd
like to try and convince me I'm wrong. Timings and events in 
my life should be so obvious that there is very little chance
of misinterpretation. Anyone want to have a go? 
 

[FairfieldLife] We are not alone!

[Hugo]

Maybe:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/nasa-spacecraft-hijacked-by-aliens/story-e6frfro0-1225865827901?from=public_rss

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  snip
   It's rubbish. An iron age hangover
  
  Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
  remarkable achievement.
  
  The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
  superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
  superstitious only if one fails to take into account
  available knowledge.
  
  To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
  the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
  such that they could predict where those objects would
  be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
  magnificent intellectual achievement.
  
  Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
  reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
  it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
  correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
  them.
 
 Entirely reasonable but, as it turns out, incorrect.
 Which is good science. Bad science would be to still
 believe tha the earth is the middle of the solar system
 and that the sky is really divided into houses the 
 position of which only some of the planets have a 
 predictable affect on your life.

The appearance of the sky is predictably *correlated
with* the events of your life. The actual configuration
of the solar system in space has nothing to do with that;
if it's incorrect, it's because there are no such
correlations (or because the correlations are wrong), not
because the earth isn't the center of the solar system.

And the sky really *is* divided into houses. You can
divide up the sky any way you want to, as long as it
conforms to what you see when you look at it.

 Other than that I quite agree that the ancients did
 an amazing job of mapping the heavens and would have said
 so with enough time to spend on posts. Their conclusions, 
 of course, were wrong.
 
   that people cling to for
   comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
   take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
   is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
  
  Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
  pointed out, by no means the only one.
 
 Any actual evidence to the contrary always gratefully recieved!

As above, so below. Correlation, not causation. You
can't blame something that isn't causative.

   They don't even use the right number of planets in the
   charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
   beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
   highly innacurate.
  
  Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
  observed or postulated correlations between how the
  sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
  What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.
 
 Thsnks for underlining my objection.

I don't think you're quite getting it here. The system
was devised based on what could be seen. Those 
observations were entirely accurate. There's no way
charts generated by a system based on what was visible
to the naked eye could be rendered inaccurate by what
*wasn't* visible to the naked eye.

   Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
   is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
   less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
   factoring *that* into your horoscope!
  
  But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
  there's no need to infer causation.
 
 If there is a correlation there must be a cause.

That the appearance of the sky is correlated to events
on earth is caused by the way the universe was set
up: as above, so below. That there are no physical fields
that could affect events on earth doesn't invalidate a
divine plan that arranged for correlations which had
nothing to do with physical fields.

   Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
   moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
   person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
   predicted it? No.
  
  How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
  would happen.
  
   The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
   interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
   to cope with difficulty.
  
  You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
  would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
  personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.
 
 The onjection I have is that the position of planets
 can mirror/casue/map/predict/whatever any thing that
 has ever happened or will happen in my life. I don't believe 
 it and have seen no evidence that it's possible.

Yes, I know, and that's fine. But that's really all
you should be saying. The objections you bring up other
than that are all straw men with regard to the system
as it was originally developed.

Tangentially, you might find this of interest: There's
a theory in some 

[FairfieldLife] Re: We are not alone!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
 
 Maybe:
 
 http://www.news.com.au/technology/nasa-spacecraft-hijacked-by-aliens/story-e6frfro0-1225865827901?from=public_rss

Hmm. The signal broke off on April 22, same day the Deepwater
rig sank in the Gulf...

[FairfieldLife] Re: Of spiritual indiscipline:

[Buck]

Of 'Lust'  spirituality:

Similarly, physical union for procreation is as nature intends, but indulgence 
is never appeased, and is destructive to health and the nervous system, 
disturbing the entire mental, neural, and spiritual 
faculties.

The mind is single-tracked when it becomes fixated on an impulse.  Once it gets 
used to sex habits, it is very difficult to make it move in the elevating 
channels of meditation.  Sex-addicted persons are very nervous and restless; 
their minds wander constantly on the plane of the senses, making it difficult 
to concentrate upon the inner pea e that leads the consciousness to the 
all-intoxicating, ever new bliss of God-communion.

The vital essence lost in physical union contains untold atomic units of 
lifetronic intelligence and energy; the loss of this power, due to 
indiscriminate excesses, is extremely harmful to spiritual development.  It 
exacerbates the outflow of life source through the lowest subtle center at the 
base of the spine, concentrating the consciousness on identification with the 
body and external sensory perceptions.  When one is habituated to this state, 
no ascension of consciousness to the higher centers of spiritual realization 
and God-communion is possible.

People who live on the sex plane with its momentary allurement and physical 
excitation cannot even imagine, mush less desire to achieve, the incomparable 
bliss of Spirit in interiorized meditation.

-Paramahansa Yogananda, 
The Second Coming of Christ, The Resurrection of the Christ Within You

Well, so it is  certainly straight forward.
-Buck


 Check, the Sloth  anger
 as spiritual impediment/enslavement, 
 And then of 'lust':
 
 
 Healthful hunger can be appeased by using the sense of taste to select the 
 right foods, but greed for food can never be satisfied and compounds its ill 
 effects by choosing an unhealthful diet.  Similarly, physical union for 
 procreation is as nature intends, but indulgence is never appeased, and is 
 destructive to health and the nervous system, disturbing the entire mental, 
 neural, and spiritual faculties.
 
 
 
 Jesus said that not only is the physical act of adultery sinful, but that, 
 according to spiritual law, a lustful gaze involves the committing of 
 adultery in the mind.  It is a common occurrence, especially in modern 
 permissive societies, for men and women to leer at each other with sensuous 
 thoughts and yearning.  This attraction seems to flatter the recipients, some 
 of whom even attire themselves or adopt other ruses in order to draw that 
 kind of admiration.  It is not only sinful to bestow lustful glances, but it 
 is equally wrong willfully to awaken sex thoughts in the opposite sex, and 
 also to feel flattered by such attentions.
 
 According to human law, unless there is physical adultery, there is no cause 
 for condemnation.  Human law passes no judgment on lascivious mental 
 behavior.  But the Divine Law condemns mental adultery also, because without 
 its advent, physical adultery would not be enacted.
 
 Seems a practical spiritual warning too about 'lust'.  


 
 
   
Oh wow! Doug are you advocating Burqas for the ladys and 
blinders and nadcuffs for the guys?
   
   Naah, but the (practical) spirituality teaching about spiritual 
   discipline 
   gets even better.  More later.
 
 Spiritual distractions  impediments, 'Sloth' again in Patajanli's Yoga Sutra-
 Sickness, mental laziness, doubt, lack of enthusiasm,
 sloth, craving for sense-pleasure, false perception,
  despair caused by failure to (meditate) and 
 unsteadiness in (meditation): 
 these distractions are the obstacles to knowledge.
 -YS Chapter I, v30
 
 It will be noticed that nearly all distractions listed by Patanjali
 come under the general heading of tamas.  Sloth is the great
 enemy -inspirer of cowardice, irresolution, self-pitying grief, and trivial, 
 hair-splitting bouts.
 Sloth may also be a psychological cause of sickness.
 -Prabhavananda

Re: [FairfieldLife] Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Bhairitu]

obbajeeba wrote:
 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?

Of course one has to put aside the naysayer ramblings from the peanut 
gallerly or is it the drunks at the end of the bar who wouldn't know an 
ayanamsha from a buffalo wing nor a vimshottari dasha from Donner and 
Blitzen.   I have studied these things and they have not (to borrow from 
Sir Isaac Newton).  ;-)

And having studied jyotish there is much truth to it.  I have always 
found, given correct birth data, that people tend to follow the careers 
outlined in their chart or at least wonder if what they  would be better 
of following that inclination to do so when they are banging their head 
against the wall in their current career.  And how often when I hear 
someone ask about why their life is going so bad right now I can almost 
guess that the lunar nodes, not planets at all, are up to some mischief 
transiting some critical point in their chart.

Jyotish can be quite uncanny in these.  I look upon it as a weather 
report which might tell you it may rain today and often it does.  
That's far better than a WAG (wild ass guess).

We know the sun and moon have definite effects on our environment and 
our personal lives.  No mistake there.  Indians use a panchang to 
delineate those effects.  But how do planets millions of miles away have 
any effect what soever when their gravitation effect would be very 
negligible?   Some say it isn't gravity but the effect of their light 
(again pretty minimal) or the more spiritual belief in the cosmic 
transcendental relationship between all things as if we and the entirety 
of creation are one big moving mass.

We might want to look at the idea that ancients not having computers and 
precise devices definitely tracked things by counting moons and then 
probably noted recurring cycles with the position of the planets they 
noted in the sky.  When Jupiter occupied a certain constellation in the 
sky they could count on certain things related to that cycle occurring.  
Jupiter completes its orbit about every 12 years.  We know there are 12 
year cycles in various fields including finance.  Of course if you are 
an astronomer you're going to know that Jupiter will not exactly 
correspond to a 12 year orbit.  But still the loose approximation was 
good enough and far better than a WAG.

There's the rub.  We have some astrologers, mainly westerner who have 
learned jyotish, that seem to believe it is so concrete that one moment 
you are in Venus dasha or subperiod and when the next you are in Sun 
dasha everything will instantly change.  Not a chance. It *is* after all 
a science of light and the dashas crossfade like scenes from a movie. 
Likewise when these astrologer's predictions fail they will go running 
back to their computers and spend much time trying rectify the 
horoscope to fit their prediction.  Perhaps if they took the horoscope 
like a weather report they would have been more successful.  And the 
latter is what many Indian astrologers do.

[FairfieldLife] TM supported by First Nations leaders in Canada

[merlin]

Transcendental Meditation 
supported by First Nations leaders in Canada
by Global Good News staff writer

Global Good News   12 May 2010


A number of First Nations leaders have given their support to make 
Transcendental Meditation and other programmes available to their colleagues 
and to all First Nations people in Canada.  

Raja Paul Potter, Raja of Invincible Canada for the Global Country of World 
Peace, reported on these initiatives along with Dr Christopher Collrin, 
National Director of Communication for the Global Country in Canada.* 

The chair of a First Nations assembly invited her entire committee to learn the 
Transcendental Meditation Programme. Four members have learned the technique 
and two more are scheduled to begin in the near future, said Dr Collrin. She is 
also helping introduce the programmes of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi to leaders in 
the field of health. 

Last month, at the invitation of the Global Mother Divine Organization,** she 
and a colleague visited the Maharishi Ayur-Veda health spa, The Raj, and toured 
Maharishi University of Management (MUM) in Fairfield, Iowa, USA. Her 
colleague, who is chair of another First Nations assembly, learned 
Transcendental Meditation during their stay. 

The leaders were especially interested in the Global Mother Divine 
Organization's programmes for health, mother and child, Consciousness-Based 
Education, as well as sustainability and coherence-creating groups at MUM. 

The visit inspired potential plans for another visit to MUM with over 120 women 
First Nations chiefs in Canada. 

In the coming days, Global Good News will feature the continuation of this 
report, including support from other First Nations leaders. 

* Raja Paul Potter's report was featured on the 6 May 2010 Maharishi Global 
Family Chat, broadcast daily via Internet webcast on the Maharishi Channel, 
Channel 3. Podcasts of the daily Global Family Chat (audio track) are also now 
available for automatic download, via an RSS feed. 

** The Global Mother Divine Organization, founded in December 2007, is the 
ladies' wing of the Global Country of World Peace. 

© Copyright 2010 Global Good News® 

[FairfieldLife] Akshaya Tritiya, Day of Lasting Achievements - Sunday, 16th May 2010

[merlin]

Akshaya Tritiya, The Day of Lasting Achievements – 16 May 2010

Global broadcast on the Maharishi Channel starting at 12.45 pm, Holland time

Sunday, 16 May, is the Day of Akshaya Tritiya, the Day of Lasting Achievements, 
which Maharishi said is one of the most important days in the Vedic Calendar. 
According to the Vedic texts, this was the day when the ancient Rishis (sages) 
performed the first Yagya. This event also marked the beginning of a time when 
people lived happily in tune with Natural Law. The special quality of this day 
is expressed in the word ‘Akshaya’ which means ‘undecaying’ or ‘everlasting’. 

The performance of the Maharishi Vedic Pandits on this special day awakens 
these beautiful qualities in individual consciousness and world consciousness.

There will be a special global broadcast on Maharishi Channel 3 starting at 
12.45 pm Holland time (CET) with Rashtriya Gita, followed by global Puja to 
Guru Dev and Maharishi Yagya performed by the Maharishi Vedic Pandits at the 
Brahmasthan of India, joined by the Maharishi Vedic Pandits in the Brahmasthan 
of Maharishi’s House in MERU, Holland . 

All Maharishi Invincibility Centres world wide are welcome to join in.

Connect to the broadcast on Maharishi Channel 3: 
http://www.maharishichannel.in  

Continuing the tradition that Maharishi started it will be very good on this 
day to raise the Flag of Invincibility, the Flag of the Global Country of World 
Peace, in every country. This can be done at solar noon in each time zone. It 
will also be good to take a photo with the Flag flying, showing the group that 
is present and the environment. Please send your photos to Dr Peter Swan, 
Minister of Communication, at:
communicat...@maharishi.net

With all best wishes for a glorious celebration,
Jai Guru Dev
ICO

[FairfieldLife] Re: Akshaya Tritiya, Day of Lasting Achievements - Sunday, 16th May 2010

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, merlin vedamer...@... wrote
(slightly edited by...ahem...moi):

Akshaya Tritiya, The Day of Lasting  Achievements - 16 May 2012

Global  broadcast on the Maharishi Channel starting at 12.45 pm, Holland
time

Sunday, 16 May, is the Day of Akshaya Tritiya, the Day of Lasting
Achievements, which Maharishi said is one of the most  important days in
the Vedic Calendar. According to the Vedic texts, this  was the day when
the ancient Rishis (sages) performed the first Yagya.

This event was marked by the presence of all of the remaining leaders of
the TM movement. The seven of them celebrated the Akshaya Tritiya Yagva
in traditional fashion, and then went out for pizza.

The twenty viewers of he Maharishi Channel sent out for pizza, in a show
of solidarity. Nablus, bravely risking expulsion from the organization,
ordered pepperoni on his.

[FairfieldLife] Spiritual Aspiration

[TurquoiseB]

What's your excuse?

 
[http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Need-Some-Insp\
iration.jpg]

http://www.totalprosports.com/2010/05/12/picture-of-the-day-need-some-in\
spiration/
http://www.totalprosports.com/2010/05/12/picture-of-the-day-need-some-i\
nspiration/  ,
if the graphic does not appear.

[FairfieldLife] A new theory about how astronomy was used by the ancients.

[Duveyoung]

I like the following idea so much I'm copyrighting this piece.  I haven't been 
all that scholarly, but I'm convinced I'm being original and that the below is 
a new idea.  Er, I hope.  

Copyright Edg Duveyoung 2010

One fact keeps banging on my door.  200,000 years ago, the modern human brain 
evolved.  They were as smart as us, and that means 1% of them had Einstein 
level acuity...190,000 years before the oldest scriptures.

With no TV et al, what did the ancients have for night time conversations?  

Think about it.

It was the stars.  And for those who would say, Oh, so they saw some animals 
in the sky, no big deal. I would ask, Do you really think Einstein would be 
satisfied with animal tales?

Do you think anyone could tell Old Albertgrok that a certain star in the sky 
caused a certain person's personality to be a certain way?  

Nah, that would be jarring to a modern brain's logic and common sense, and back 
then too.

The precision of their measurements as proved by the various astronomical 
artifacts they created, is only the BEGINNING of their ken.  

Here's my theory:

They used the stars as their personal diary.

How so?

The cave paintings at Lascaux give a clue.  The configuration of the animals 
were PERFECT star charts -- the tips of the bison's horns being EXACTLY where 
they should be.  How exact?  If you made the cave's rock walls transparent, the 
tips of the bison's horns would be on top of, align with the bigger-brighter 
stars, and so too the other key-points of the cave's artwork would PRECISELY 
align with the night sky also.

That's a huge intellectual feat, but it's only the beginning. One has to ask 
why the geniuses back then went to all that trouble.

To predict the growing season or when the bison herds would return seem to me 
to be painfully trivial and not anywhere near the level of importance in those 
ancient minds that it would take to motivate the cave paintings which required 
a tremendous amount of recreational time to be expended.

Note that it would be EASY for even a normally intelligent ancient to say, 
When the sun comes up directly over that mountain top, that's when the 
planting season begins.   

There's all the precision one needs.  

One sees the sun coming up every day slightly nudged over a bit, and the moon 
as if adds accents to each day's presentation, and then the stars are the 
matrix-background against which the sun and moon are compared.  It didn't take 
a Stonehenge to know when to plant the seeds.  It didn't take a cave painting 
either.

So why did they go to all that trouble?  Stonehenge?  Give me a break -- that's 
way too much trouble to tell when to plant a seed.  And, hey, they didn't even 
plant seeds until 10,000 years ago, and I'm theorizing on what the stars meant 
to them before agriculture.

So, diary, what can I mean by that?  To me the following concept is big 
enough and valuable enough to motivate a cave person to get his tribe to build 
Stonehenge.  

First note that the human mind is DNA deep when it comes to projection.  We 
simply can see the contents of our mind out there in a direct manner.  That's 
our beauty.we naturally see ourselves everywhere.

Consider this -- if you're my age, you know where you were when JFK was shot, 
or when Neil planted his boot on the moon, or whatever.  Do you see that you've 
got a dog-eared page in your own personal diary via that notation?  

A singularly precise moment in time is given an asterisk by you.  When JFK got 
shot I was __.  Everyone my age can fill that blank.

And any moment that is important to one can be thusly dog-eared.

Well, if you were sitting around a campfire with a giant brain, don't you think 
you could as easily say, When the bison's horn tip hit that mountain's top, I 
was born.    Direct, simple, true, and practically valuable.  

Cave Father: That bison's star was on that mountain's top and then moved on to 
where we see it tonight -- a full hand span away from the mountain's top now.  
I am a handspan old.

Cave Son:  When was I born?

Cave Father:  When you were born, young one, that mountain's top had the 
antelope's tail's tip upon it, and, see, it is only a finger's width from there 
tonight.  When it is a handspan away from the mountain's top, think of me 
telling you this now, for I will be dead by then.

Cave Son:  When the bison's hoof had just risen over that mountain, I broke my 
arm, and it did not stop hurting until the hoof was between those two hills 
over there.

Cave Father:  Even now, I can see patterns in the sky that remind me of all my 
life, because every time something important happened, I looked at the sky and 
made its stars' positions at that moment a precise and unique image upon which 
I mapped a  memory.  I see the horse's eye is three fingers from the mountain's 
top, and when I see that mountain's top and the horse's eye, I remember when 
they once touched -- that when it I decided to marry your mother.  

[FairfieldLife] Re: A new theory about how astronomy was used by the ancients.

[John]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung no_re...@... wrote:

 I like the following idea so much I'm copyrighting this piece.  I haven't 
 been all that scholarly, but I'm convinced I'm being original and that the 
 below is a new idea.  Er, I hope.  
 
 Copyright Edg Duveyoung 2010
 
 One fact keeps banging on my door.  200,000 years ago, the modern human brain 
 evolved.  They were as smart as us, and that means 1% of them had Einstein 
 level acuity...190,000 years before the oldest scriptures.

Human beings may be older than you estimated.  If the evidence is correct, 
humans could be several million years old.  They could have existed during the 
time of the dinasaurs, maybe even before.  I've posted several clips in the 
last few weeks to present this idea.  

If this was the case, it is possible that several human civilizations have 
risen and fallen throughout the history of Earth.

In other words, Darwin's theory could be wrong or needs major revision.

[FairfieldLife] Another Food Price Crisis On the Way

[nablusoss1008]

Another Food Price Crisis On the WayBy Raj
http://rajpatel.org/author/raj/  on 05/12/2010 in Uncategorized
http://rajpatel.org/category/uncategorized/
In these two videos Jayati Ghosh, whom I interviewed for Stuffed and
Starved and whose mind is filled with whip-smart insight, offers a short
primer on why financial market speculation drove up the price of food in
2008, and why it's likely to again. Very simply, there is once again
money with which traders can gamble – courtesy of the bailouts –
and while people are tired of bailing out banks, governments can't
credibly say that they won't intervene in food markets. So
there's tremendous moral hazard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard . Traders know that when it
comes to futures in food, they can't lose. A different story,
obviously, from the 1 billion who are already hungry. They're losing
every day. The majority of them: women and girls. Watch Jayati's
videos below, or read the transcript, courtesy of the good people at The
Real News Network
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=33\
Itemid=74jumival=553 . [Updated with functioning video links)

Re: [FairfieldLife] A new theory about how astronomy was used by the ancients.

[Bhairitu]

Don't bother copyrighting as the subject has been tackled by many 
authors.  BTW, did you know that Kepler's gig was creating charts for 
astrologers to use?  It wasn't about plotting courses for safe traveling 
of ships.

Some day human beings may evolve where they understand the larger cycles 
of nature and how they express themselves in society than they do 
today.  Some astrologers believe that every time we go through heavy 
sunspot cycles society goes a bit nuts.

Duveyoung wrote:
 I like the following idea so much I'm copyrighting this piece.  I haven't 
 been all that scholarly, but I'm convinced I'm being original and that the 
 below is a new idea.  Er, I hope.  

 Copyright Edg Duveyoung 2010

 One fact keeps banging on my door.  200,000 years ago, the modern human brain 
 evolved.  They were as smart as us, and that means 1% of them had Einstein 
 level acuity...190,000 years before the oldest scriptures.

 With no TV et al, what did the ancients have for night time conversations?  

 Think about it.

 It was the stars.  And for those who would say, Oh, so they saw some animals 
 in the sky, no big deal. I would ask, Do you really think Einstein would be 
 satisfied with animal tales?

 Do you think anyone could tell Old Albertgrok that a certain star in the sky 
 caused a certain person's personality to be a certain way?  

 Nah, that would be jarring to a modern brain's logic and common sense, and 
 back then too.

 The precision of their measurements as proved by the various astronomical 
 artifacts they created, is only the BEGINNING of their ken.  

 Here's my theory:

 They used the stars as their personal diary.

 How so?

 The cave paintings at Lascaux give a clue.  The configuration of the animals 
 were PERFECT star charts -- the tips of the bison's horns being EXACTLY where 
 they should be.  How exact?  If you made the cave's rock walls transparent, 
 the tips of the bison's horns would be on top of, align with the 
 bigger-brighter stars, and so too the other key-points of the cave's artwork 
 would PRECISELY align with the night sky also.

 That's a huge intellectual feat, but it's only the beginning. One has to ask 
 why the geniuses back then went to all that trouble.

 To predict the growing season or when the bison herds would return seem to me 
 to be painfully trivial and not anywhere near the level of importance in 
 those ancient minds that it would take to motivate the cave paintings which 
 required a tremendous amount of recreational time to be expended.

 Note that it would be EASY for even a normally intelligent ancient to say, 
 When the sun comes up directly over that mountain top, that's when the 
 planting season begins.   

 There's all the precision one needs.  

 One sees the sun coming up every day slightly nudged over a bit, and the moon 
 as if adds accents to each day's presentation, and then the stars are the 
 matrix-background against which the sun and moon are compared.  It didn't 
 take a Stonehenge to know when to plant the seeds.  It didn't take a cave 
 painting either.

 So why did they go to all that trouble?  Stonehenge?  Give me a break -- 
 that's way too much trouble to tell when to plant a seed.  And, hey, they 
 didn't even plant seeds until 10,000 years ago, and I'm theorizing on what 
 the stars meant to them before agriculture.

 So, diary, what can I mean by that?  To me the following concept is big 
 enough and valuable enough to motivate a cave person to get his tribe to 
 build Stonehenge.  

 First note that the human mind is DNA deep when it comes to projection.  We 
 simply can see the contents of our mind out there in a direct manner.  
 That's our beauty.we naturally see ourselves everywhere.

 Consider this -- if you're my age, you know where you were when JFK was shot, 
 or when Neil planted his boot on the moon, or whatever.  Do you see that 
 you've got a dog-eared page in your own personal diary via that notation?  

 A singularly precise moment in time is given an asterisk by you.  When JFK 
 got shot I was __.  Everyone my age can fill that blank.

 And any moment that is important to one can be thusly dog-eared.

 Well, if you were sitting around a campfire with a giant brain, don't you 
 think you could as easily say, When the bison's horn tip hit that mountain's 
 top, I was born.    Direct, simple, true, and practically valuable.  

 Cave Father: That bison's star was on that mountain's top and then moved on 
 to where we see it tonight -- a full hand span away from the mountain's top 
 now.  I am a handspan old.

 Cave Son:  When was I born?

 Cave Father:  When you were born, young one, that mountain's top had the 
 antelope's tail's tip upon it, and, see, it is only a finger's width from 
 there tonight.  When it is a handspan away from the mountain's top, think of 
 me telling you this now, for I will be dead by then.

 Cave Son:  When the bison's hoof had just risen over that mountain, I broke 

[FairfieldLife] Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law

[do.rflex]

Cartoon link: http://www.bartcop.com/tt-az-scale.jpg
http://www.bartcop.com/tt-az-scale.jpg

[FairfieldLife] Re: Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law

[WillyTex]

do.rflex:
 Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law
 
Racist cartoon.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Spiritual Aspiration

[Mike Dixon]

A real disappointment for those with a foot fetish!





From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:56:05 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Spiritual Aspiration

  
What's your excuse?



http://www.totalprosports.com/2010/05/12/picture-of-the-day-need-some-inspiration/ ,
if the graphic does not appear.




  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law

[Mike Dixon]

I noticed yesterday that those in charge of circulating a petition, I believe 
for the repeal of the new AZ law, had to drop it due to a lack of interest. Ten 
more states are considering the same law and polls are showing a very strong 
support for it in AZ and nation wide. Where is Shemp?





From: WillyTex willy...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 2:47:02 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law

  


do.rflex:
 Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law
 
Racist cartoon.





  

[FairfieldLife] VIDEO: Failed Attempt to “Cap” the Oil Gusher in the Gulf

[do.rflex]

So you have an idea of the size of the containment dome above the water 
surface, compare its size to the workers standing at its base. Then watch the 
video to get an idea how much oil is spewing from the leak.

Containment dome: 
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2010/20100505_containment.jpg

Video - Watch what happens underwater when they try to put it on top of the 
leak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTM2QyAfCI

[FairfieldLife] Arizona loses more business in wake of immigration law vote

[do.rflex]

Arizona took another hit Wednesday as Republicans cast a vote for the
home of their 2012 convention. Phoenix made the short list but lost out to 
Tampa.

It was little surprise to tourism officials in Arizona. Since the state passed 
the nation's toughest immigration law three weeks ago, its meeting and events 
business has fallen drastically.

Hispanic civil rights groups are boycotting Arizona and urging others to do the 
same. ...

The city risks losing as much as $90 million in hotel and convention
business over the next five years because of the controversy, according to city 
estimates released Wednesday.

The state's hotel and lodging association has counted 23 canceled
meetings for a loss of between $6 and $10 million. 

On Wednesday, Los Angeles became the largest city to join the boycott.

Read more:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/12/AR2010051203317.html
 

ALSO - according to a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll: 
70 percent of Hispanics oppose the new law. 
http://snipurl.com/w7y6p   [newsbusters_org] 

[NOTE: Hispanics make up 30% of Arizona's population.]

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Arizona issues new guidelines for immigration law

[Bhairitu]

Probably in jail because they think he's Mexican?  Or maybe an illegal?

Mike Dixon wrote:
 Where is Shemp?
   

Re: [FairfieldLife] Another Food Price Crisis On the Way

[Bhairitu]

Trading on food futures should be HIGHLY regulated. If there is ANY 
reason to rebel and riot against the rich it would be if food which 
right now is plentiful in this world is withheld by the selfish 
interests of the very rich. We are already seeing unreasonable price 
hikes on some food items which make no sense and often blamed on fuel 
prices which are actually down. When are we going to get over the idea 
that the world is for the very rich and their whims and instead demand 
the world for and by the people!

nablusoss1008 wrote:
 Another Food Price Crisis On the WayBy Raj
 http://rajpatel.org/author/raj/  on 05/12/2010 in Uncategorized
 http://rajpatel.org/category/uncategorized/
 In these two videos Jayati Ghosh, whom I interviewed for Stuffed and
 Starved and whose mind is filled with whip-smart insight, offers a short
 primer on why financial market speculation drove up the price of food in
 2008, and why it's likely to again. Very simply, there is once again
 money with which traders can gamble – courtesy of the bailouts –
 and while people are tired of bailing out banks, governments can't
 credibly say that they won't intervene in food markets. So
 there's tremendous moral hazard
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard . Traders know that when it
 comes to futures in food, they can't lose. A different story,
 obviously, from the 1 billion who are already hungry. They're losing
 every day. The majority of them: women and girls. Watch Jayati's
 videos below, or read the transcript, courtesy of the good people at The
 Real News Network
 http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=33\
 Itemid=74jumival=553 . [Updated with functioning video links)


   





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[FairfieldLife] Re: VIDEO: Failed Attempt to “Cap” the Oil Gusher in the Gulf

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rf...@... wrote:
 
 So you have an idea of the size of the containment dome above
 the water surface, compare its size to the workers standing
 at its base. Then watch the video to get an idea how much oil
 is spewing from the leak.
 
 Containment dome: 
 http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2010/20100505_containment.jpg
 
 Video - Watch what happens underwater when they try to put it
 on top of the leak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTM2QyAfCI

Er, there's no what happens to watch here. They didn't
try to put it on top of the leak, they *did* put it on
top of the leak.

Not long after, they discovered that the outlet on top had
become clogged with methane hydrate crystals, making it
unusable for the purpose of siphoning off the oil, so they
removed it.

This took place almost a week ago, last Saturday. Old
news.

They're now planning to try a *much* smaller dome, dubbed
the Top Hat. Or they may try inserting tubing directly
into the drill pipe; or they may try to stop the leak
by clogging it up with bits of rubber and other junk.

[FairfieldLife] British chess champion: Equipped for life at the top/ incredible good article

[merlin]

British chess champion: Equipped for life at the top

http://www.t-m.org.uk   13 May 2010


British chess champion Jonathan Rowson has followed political leaders Nick 
Clegg and William Hague in speaking about how Transcendental Meditation helped 
to equip him for life at the top of his profession. 

The three-time UK chess champion told the Indian newspaper Deccan Herald, 
during a visit to Delhi, that he maintains a strong interest in Transcendental 
Meditation as well as yoga and Indian spirituality. Aberdeen-born Rowson, 33, 
learned Transcendental Meditation in 1998 while a student at Oxford University 
and says he owes his first-class degree to it. 

'It was by far the best thing I learned at Oxford, 'he told a Scottish 
newspaper in 2007. 'I suddenly had more energy, concentrated better and felt 
warmer towards other people.' 

Rowson, who also has a degree from Harvard and is a widely read author and 
columnist, added that he would never dream of playing a serious game without 
meditating beforehand. 'After meditating I feel calm, centred and ready to 
compete but, more importantly, the technique allows me to ''just play'' and 
enjoy the game without worrying about the result.' 

Read more from The Herald article, 23 April 2007. 

© Copyright 2010 www.t-m.org.uk® 

[FairfieldLife] Post Count

[FFL PostCount]

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===
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[FairfieldLife] Re: VIDEO: Failed Attempt to “Cap” the Oil Gusher in the Gulf

[authfriend]

BTW, for *reliable* information on the Gulf disaster,
check out:

http://www.theoildrum.com




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, do.rflex do.rflex@ wrote:
  
  So you have an idea of the size of the containment dome above
  the water surface, compare its size to the workers standing
  at its base. Then watch the video to get an idea how much oil
  is spewing from the leak.
  
  Containment dome: 
  http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2010/20100505_containment.jpg
  
  Video - Watch what happens underwater when they try to put it
  on top of the leak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JTM2QyAfCI
 
 Er, there's no what happens to watch here. They didn't
 try to put it on top of the leak, they *did* put it on
 top of the leak.
 
 Not long after, they discovered that the outlet on top had
 become clogged with methane hydrate crystals, making it
 unusable for the purpose of siphoning off the oil, so they
 removed it.
 
 This took place almost a week ago, last Saturday. Old
 news.
 
 They're now planning to try a *much* smaller dome, dubbed
 the Top Hat. Or they may try inserting tubing directly
 into the drill pipe; or they may try to stop the leak
 by clogging it up with bits of rubber and other junk.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Arizona loses more business in wake of immigration law vote

[Mike Dixon]

Any boycott of AZ hurts Hispanics, probably the most, since they make up a 
large portion of the restaurant and hotel workers. A successful boycott will 
probably do more to drive out illegals than the new law. In other words, the 
hate for non- Hispanics is going to hurt Hispanics more. Isn't that called 
shooting yourself in the foot? When cities like LA and San Francisco organize a 
boycott, that just lets us all know where not to spend our money or do 
business. This lunacy could end up backfiring and hurting CA more.




From: do.rflex do.rf...@yahoo.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 4:30:26 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Arizona loses more business in wake of immigration law 
vote

  

Arizona took another hit Wednesday as Republicans cast a vote for the
home of their 2012 convention. Phoenix made the short list but lost out to 
Tampa.

It was little surprise to tourism officials in Arizona. Since the state passed 
the nation's toughest immigration law three weeks ago, its meeting and events 
business has fallen drastically.

Hispanic civil rights groups are boycotting Arizona and urging others to do the 
same. ...

The city risks losing as much as $90 million in hotel and convention
business over the next five years because of the controversy, according to city 
estimates released Wednesday.

The state's hotel and lodging association has counted 23 canceled
meetings for a loss of between $6 and $10 million. 

On Wednesday, Los Angeles became the largest city to join the boycott.

Read more:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/12/AR2010051203317.html
 

ALSO - according to a new NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll: 
70 percent of Hispanics oppose the new law. 
http://snipurl. com/w7y6p [newsbusters_ org] 

[NOTE: Hispanics make up 30% of Arizona's population.]





  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Spiritual Aspiration

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Mike Dixon mdixon.6...@... wrote:

 A real disappointment for those with a foot fetish!

But, an incredible find for those with an amputee fetish.
 
 
 From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 11:56:05 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Spiritual Aspiration
 
   
 What's your excuse?
 
 
 
 http://www.totalprosports.com/2010/05/12/picture-of-the-day-need-some-inspiration/ ,
 if the graphic does not appear.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

   My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
   of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
   as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
   themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
   catering to the perceived desires of the paying
   clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
   fulfilling.
  
  Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in 
  Jyotish? How many years of study and practice? 
 
 As a practitioner? None. As someone who has 
 had Jyotish charts done for him, and listened
 to the Jyotishi's predictions? 
 Some, enough
 to stand on my description of such predictions
 above. I have so far encountered none more
 insightful or accurate than the predictions 
 a good cold reader such as Curtis talks about
 could make, for anyone, without having any kind
 of charts in front of them.
 
 YMMV. Then again, if it does, I might suggest
 (as a possibility, not a declaration of what
 is happening) that there might be some possibility
 of either self-fulfilling prophecy (believe it
 will happen strongly enough, and you make it 
 happen) or rose-coloured glasses (having been
 told that the future will look like X, tending
 to interpret even Y's as X's) going on. 

I appreciate the issues your raise. If anything I am possible more skeptical 
than most -- and I certainly have seen massive amounts of charlatan activity in 
the name of jyotish. And I never had any interest in western astrology -- 
considered it bunk (Generally still do) . But after an initial lecture I heard 
on jyotish, and an intriguing  yet ultimately disappointing set of readings, I 
took upon my self to learn some of it, read / studied hard/ half a dozen good 
books -- did a lot of jyotish computer work, etc. With this, I perhaps am far 
more aware of its weaknesses than many. However, I  came across enough uncanny 
stuff in my chart -- and a few others that I remain intrigued / while 
skeptical. While we all have biases and flaws in reasoning, perception, 
analysis etc, I am aware of many of them -- and do endeavor to really challenge 
my assupmtions and hypotheses. And I am fully open to the possibility that I 
may be connecting dots that are meningless -- and deluded by irrational proofs 
etc. But I have some background in analysis and statistics, I am aware of what 
constitutes a degree of confidence in ones assertions and the implications that 
data may and often does not reveal. So I am highly skeptical, and its an 
informed skepticism -- more so that many that wax on about the emptiness of 
jyotish.  however, I am intrigued by some results.

 
 As you suggest, what is needed are scientific
 tests, made against non-vague, falsifiable 
 predictions. Unfortunately, many Jyotishi (and
 certainly the ones on this forum) don't seem
 to want to *produce* any of these non-vague,
 falsifiable predictions for testing.

I fully agree, many people in jyotish I have encountered, including well known 
authors / jyotishees, have no clue as to what constitutes a
testable hypothesis and the means to verify it. Its one reason I generally stay 
clear of things jyotish. I am not in any way a TB jyotishee. 

  Or are you just shooting the breeze about some casual observation 
  you may have had years ago? 
 
 That, too.  :-)

Don't we all.

 
  Nothing wrong with shooting the breeze. 
 
 As if you have the ability to define wrong.  :-)
 
 I'm just having fun with this, dude. I happen 
 to *generally* believe that Jyotish is a placebo
 or a cold reading phenomenon. 

It could be. I don't spend much time on it -- so thats an indication of how 
valuable I assess that it is for me.

 But as I said, 
 I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems to be 
 the Jyotishi who are unwilling to stop using 
 vague, non-specific, apply-to-anyone cold reader 
 language in their predictions and give some 
 scientist (or even us) some real predictions 
 to work with.


Agreed. 

And I started my rant -- for fun -- because I at times see people attacking 
strawmen of jyotish -- not actual jytotish. So its fun to explore their 
irrationality when they are claiming jyotish is irrational. But I am warped 
that way. And of course there are plenty of things to critique in real jyotish 
also. But usually the discussion never gets there.

And i appreciate your good will in discussing this. And I am not challenging 
you -- just raising some observations and sharing some of my own experience. 
(And if I am out to lunch on this, it will hardly be the first time) :)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
 
   It's rubbish. 
  
  Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or 
  actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?
 
 No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
 model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
 so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
 is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.
 
 BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
 The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
 of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.
  
 
  An iron age hangover that people cling to for
   comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,
  
  who is blaming stars? 
 
 Stars planets, whatever.
 
  
  
   karma etc than take responsibility 
  
  or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
  
  And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you 
  mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work 
  on a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical 
  evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages 
  -- :)
  
  
   and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
  
  Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 
  
   
   They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
   because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
   of the naked eye, 
  
  
  And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
  Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system 
  that works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think 
  should be in my model, why in heavens name does 
  that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 
 
 Interesting, some serious denial going on here.

I am quire open to the possibility that jyotish is baseless. I don't see denial 
-- but perhaps I am blind. But, in jesting about, I found your arguments not 
critiquing actual jyotish, but some imaginary jyotish you appear to have in 
your head. I find that amusing -- and figured you might see some of the humor 
-- you have exhibited a refined and cultured wit in your prior posts.

 If I invented
 a system of prediction based on football teams the exclusion
 of the yankees would be relevant in ascertaining the accuracy 
 of my predictions but jyotish uses planets against a randomly
 chosen backdrop of stars, if you exclude two large planets
 then any predictions you make using just the others are going
 to be innaccurate aren't they? 

I have already stated my view -- no need to beat a dead horse. other than my 
general contention that you are critiquing an imaginary jyotish in yur head, 
not actual jyotish. but we might never come to much consensus on that. 

 Or you have to find some sort
 of explanation as to why they don't have the same type of effect
 that the others do. 

Again, yur premise is deeply flawed. Jyotish, the one I am familiar with, has 
NOTHING  to do with planetary or field effects. So you hare critiquing 
something totally foreign to me. I find it amusing -- but if you don't share 
the humor, we best drop it.
 
 The system is a physical one so, unless there is a huge 
 unexplainable gap in expectation derived from the unfinished 
 model of the solar system jyotishees use (which you would 
 obviously claim there wasn't) the outer planets don't have 
 any effect on us. Which sounds suspicious to me, in the same 
 order of suspicious as gravity only working on people with 
 blond hair, why would nature pick and choose? If planets
 are affecting or in some sort of symbiotic quantum entanglement
 with the human brain (as claimed) then why only some of them?
  
  If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, 
  the New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever 
  you want to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have 
  anything to do with another person's model an its validity?
  
 
  
   Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!
  
  I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring 
   today's top film, or who won the most seats in parliment. 
 
 You can factor in what you like it wouldn't be any more or less accurate. 
 Some people read tea leaves or animal entrails for
 christs sake! We humans have a need for omens to be real, why
 I don't know, I assume it's some ancient way of making sense
 of a complex world or a desperate way to give meaning to
 something that has none.
 
 
   Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
   of birth? 
  
  I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?
 
 The jyotishee I saw was most 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
   


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
 telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the 
 sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering 
 about, being on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the 
 placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
 Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and 
relationships.
   
   The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
   anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
   is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
   were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
   that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
 
 John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
 wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?

At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch predicts when the sun will 
rise. Where is the connection? Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is the sun 
causing my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for a causative 
model. 

A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be correlated and useful  
for predictive purposes but have no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The watch 
is correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly causes it. In a somewhat 
parallel way, the clock in the planets don't in ANY way create our karma. We 
do that. (or did it). 

The emergence of events in our lives, something we created, may be correlated 
to various clocks. Its not really such a  hard concept.




its amusing ow insistent you appear in critiquing a totally bogus concept, and 
claiming you are critiquing (actual) jyotish -- or at least the one I am 
familiar with. 

[FairfieldLife] Reality TV (And reality ain't always pretty!)

[tartbrain]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/13/hoda-kathie-lee-go-makeup_n_574974.html