[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote:
Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to
be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi
(for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s):
*shraddhaa*-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka
itareSaam!
shraddhAf. faith , trust , confidence , trustfulness ,
faithfulness , belief in...
Of course you'd have to accept that TM was a practice that related to
the YS - which it does not. But even if it did, the deeper meaning of
shraddha as I understood it was having faith that samadhi was the
path and that the lineage from the guru was authentic, thus leading
us to samadhi, which is a tool for realization.
Hmmm... Bhojadeva:
tatra shraddhaa yogaviSaye cetasaH prasaadaH.
*I* would translate that like this:
Faith, in the sphere of yoga [yoga-viSaye, i.e. yogasya viSaye], [means]
calmness/clearness of mind.
prasAda m. clearness, brightness, serenity, calmness, tranquillity, kindness,
grace, favour, aid, assistance, gratuity, present
viSaya m. reach, sphere, domain, province, country; the right place
for (gen.); object, esp. of sense, pl. (sgl.) the pleasures of sense or the
external world. ***{chandasi viSaye} in the sphere of i.e. only in the Veda***
(g.).
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote:
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote:
Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to
be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi
(for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s):
*shraddhaa*-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka
itareSaam!
shraddhAf. faith , trust , confidence , trustfulness ,
faithfulness , belief in...
Of course you'd have to accept that TM was a practice that related to
the YS - which it does not. But even if it did, the deeper meaning of
shraddha as I understood it was having faith that samadhi was the
path and that the lineage from the guru was authentic, thus leading
us to samadhi, which is a tool for realization.
Hmmm... Bhojadeva:
tatra shraddhaa yogaviSaye cetasaH prasaadaH.
*I* would translate that like this:
Faith, in the sphere of yoga [yoga-viSaye, i.e. yogasya viSaye], [means]
calmness/clearness of mind.
prasAda m. clearness, brightness, serenity, calmness, tranquillity, kindness,
grace, favour, aid, assistance, gratuity, present
viSaya m. reach, sphere, domain, province, country; the right place
for (gen.); object, esp. of sense, pl. (sgl.) the pleasures of sense or the
external world. ***{chandasi viSaye} in the sphere of i.e. only in the Veda***
(g.).
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. Patrick, I do not deny your experience with the TM puja, but I would suggest another explanatin for it. I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does, but I would certainly call any subjective effect associated with performing the puja an exercise in trained moodmaking. If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. Is it any wonder that many found that to be the case? Duh. Classic hypnotic suggestion. Classic moodmaking. Me, I rarely found there to be any SOC-shifting aspect to performing the puja. I became aware early on that any such feelings were produced *by me*, as a result of whether I indulged in the moodmaking I'd been taught to indulge in or not. Repeat the words without dwelling on the images or meanings I'd been taught to dwell on, and nada...zilch...bupkus. I could just as easily have been reading from the telephone book, for all the change it produced in my state of attention. Add in the mood- making instructions, divide the mind and *expect* there to be a shift in my state of awareness, and I could feel a light buzz. Nothing profound, just a light buzz. I honestly believe that the reverence many TM teachers have for the puja and its magical Woo Woo qualities is based on not being able to tell the difference between a light buzz and a profound shift in one's state of attention. But then, unlike many of them, I'm not a proponent of magical thinking, in which one believes that certain words (mantras, chants, etc.) have a Woo Woo quality that can transform consciousness merely by thinking, chanting or hearing the magical words. I would be willing to bet that any competent researcher with a knowledge of how the puja was supposed to work could create a set of nonsense words, train TM teachers how to repeat them while holding in their minds certain images that they had been trained to consider elevating or inspiring, and they'd experience the same buzz or high that they experience from the TM puja. They've *already* been trained in how to moodmake themselves into a supposedly higher state of consciousness, after all; the only difference would be the nonsense words used as a trigger mechanism. I fully *understand* the desire to attribute what you feel to something magical or mystical associated with the puja. It's just that, based on my own experience and my own interpretation of the same training we received and performing the same ritual, I don't buy it. I think it's pretty much a classic example of trained moodmaking. Your mileage may vary.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer. Yes, indeed. Something we can agree on at last!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. It really seems to center around belief. If you do not or cannot change the belief system you were imprinted with - and it seems because of the light trance states that TM induces makes such imprints more lasting - you may have to do more than change your belief. You may need to re-imprint yourself with a deeper, more integrated meditative experience to override the earlier imprint. Otherwise, you're stuck with what you got. And slowly over time, your brain have been altered to readjust the hardware to what you've been doing, month-to-month, year-to-year. Of course if you also surround yourself with people who echo back the same memes, you become that world - but become effectively trapped in a samsara of your own creation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Hi Patrick, no need to consider these two failures with coarse nervous systems. They wouldn't feel the puja if it smacked them in the face (and I wish it would). Opinions by one fool who hasn't meditated or done his puja for 40+ years and another who never learned it. Such hubris and BS. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. Patrick, I do not deny your experience with the TM puja, but I would suggest another explanatin for it. I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does, but I would certainly call any subjective effect associated with performing the puja an exercise in trained moodmaking. If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. Is it any wonder that many found that to be the case? Duh. Classic hypnotic suggestion. Classic moodmaking. Me, I rarely found there to be any SOC-shifting aspect to performing the puja. I became aware early on that any such feelings were produced *by me*, as a result of whether I indulged in the moodmaking I'd been taught to indulge in or not. Repeat the words without dwelling on the images or meanings I'd been taught to dwell on, and nada...zilch...bupkus. I could just as easily have been reading from the telephone book, for all the change it produced in my state of attention. Add in the mood- making instructions, divide the mind and *expect* there to be a shift in my state of awareness, and I could feel a light buzz. Nothing profound, just a light buzz. I honestly believe that the reverence many TM teachers have for the puja and its magical Woo Woo qualities is based on not being able to tell the difference between a light buzz and a profound shift in one's state of attention. But then, unlike many of them, I'm not a proponent of magical thinking, in which one believes that certain words (mantras, chants, etc.) have a Woo Woo quality that can transform consciousness merely by thinking, chanting or hearing the magical words. I would be willing to bet that any competent researcher with a knowledge of how the puja was supposed to work could create a set of nonsense words, train TM teachers how to repeat them while holding in their minds certain images that they had been trained to consider elevating or inspiring, and they'd experience the same buzz or high that they experience from the TM puja. They've *already* been trained in how to moodmake themselves into a supposedly higher state of consciousness, after all; the only difference would be the nonsense words used as a trigger mechanism. I fully *understand* the desire to attribute what you feel to something magical or mystical associated with the puja. It's just that, based on my own experience and my own interpretation of the same training we received and performing the same ritual, I don't buy it. I think it's pretty much a classic example of trained moodmaking. Your mileage may vary.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer. So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Tom Pall wrote: So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings. There's no real mastery of the mind taking place, as it's too languid of a technique IMO. In traditional mantra meditation as I was taught it, the blank thought-free state, and esp. gaps in breathing were considered a sign that it was time to move onto the next stage, which was a more Patanjalian attentional training. Since an individual is more than a mental continuum, there's more to self-mastery than transcending the coarse mental level and imaging one's achieving samadhi. Without a stable foundation for ones telescope one cannot reliably create a subjective facility with which to experience clearly. The subjective facility never becomes reliable. It's like a bouncing telescope trying to observe the inner sky. Without mental vividness, mental perception is entrained as a fuzz. And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. Over time this unmastery becomes hardwired. We're stuck. Getting stuck and staying stuck are great advantages for certain classes of gurus - esp. those with extensive and expensive product lines. It becomes like the Matrix: we don't even realize we're seeing a projected reality and we're actually suspended in an enslaving device intended to utilize our bodily or monetary energy.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@... wrote: Hi Patrick, no need to consider these two failures with coarse nervous systems. They wouldn't feel the puja if it smacked them in the face (and I wish it would). Opinions by one fool who hasn't meditated or done his puja for 40+ years and another who never learned it. Such hubris and BS. Bingo ! Glad you threw in a comment here. I would'nt bother as I see all those havebeens who have opinions on things the haven'nt been doing for 40+ years as completely irrelevant.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. It really seems to center around belief. Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi (for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s): *shraddhaa*-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka itareSaam! shraddhAf. faith , trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness , belief in...
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Patrick, I do not deny your experience with the TM puja, but I would suggest another explanatin for it. I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does, but I would certainly call any subjective effect associated with performing the puja an exercise in trained moodmaking. If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. On my TTC the mind floats on the meaning of the Puja, which happened quite effortlessly after the performing the it hundreds of times. It's not just my hundreds of times that enlivens the Woo Woo-shakti-magic-whatcha-ma-call-it of the Puja, it's the collective performance of TM initiators for many years that enlivens the Puja. Rituals become more powerful over time. Whether it's Dexter collecting blood slides or thousands of priests celebrating the rite of the Holy Eucharist, such rituals evoke a specific quality of energy one plugs into. For me, if I put my attention on it, anything associated with the Puja, a piece of fruit, a flower, a candle, the scent sandalwood, can evoke a feeling of devotion in the heart, a sense of Mother is at Home or the deep comfort one feels enjoying family life. It's an inner smile. Barry will dismiss this as moodmaking of course, but I'd say that when he became an initiator he was simply unable to open his heart to the experience of gratitude and devotion and that's why he's such a sourpuss about TM today. Note to johnt: The Puja has nothing to do with brainwave entrainment. You made that up. Furthermore, studying Bandler and Grinder will never give you any insight into the power of the Puja if you just focus on one individual doing the Puja. Study the years of collective performance of the Puja to enliven the mantras and you might be on to something. I honestly believe that the reverence many TM teachers have for the puja and its magical Woo Woo qualities is based on not being able to tell the difference between a light buzz and a profound shift in one's state of attention. Barry, if you're going to make a distinction implying that a profound shift in one's state of attention is *better* than a light buzz without defining buzz or shift or explaining the difference (as if you have had some such *superior* experience and know the difference) you're just setting up a straw man for the sake of denigrating Patrick's experience of the Puja and being nasty and snide, as usual.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Tom Pall thomas.pall@... wrote: On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 7:40 PM, feste37 wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. Interesting how certain, once pressing needs or desires, can just disappear, leaving no impulse to pursue them any longer. So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings. I don't know why this is but it seems to be a fact, or at least something that many long-term TMers and ex-TMers experience. I agree with you that such experiences can't be fitted into the orthodox TM explanation of stress release, because, as you say, there is no lurch forward every so often, which is what one would expect if stress was really being released. As for the IA course, a surprising number attend simply because they need the money to survive, small amount though it is.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
What's interesting, is the motivation, of dudes, who can't stay away---no matter how humiliated they get. Might be time to give it up to Jesus; not everyone can bowl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbmqEiqMq4Yfeature=related From: Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 5:10:26 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. It really seems to center around belief. If you do not or cannot change the belief system you were imprinted with - and it seems because of the light trance states that TM induces makes such imprints more lasting - you may have to do more than change your belief. You may need to re-imprint yourself with a deeper, more integrated meditative experience to override the earlier imprint. Otherwise, you're stuck with what you got. And slowly over time, your brain have been altered to readjust the hardware to what you've been doing, month-to-month, year-to-year. Of course if you also surround yourself with people who echo back the same memes, you become that world - but become effectively trapped in a samsara of your own creation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Thanks for following up, Vaj. This topic interests me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 8, 2011, at 4:38 AM, turquoiseb wrote: I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does I'd more specifically call it expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo relaxation response. I can buy that description, although I would not limit the result to variants of the relaxation response. I think that expectation based upon indoctrination can lead to some Class-A spiritual experiences. I don't knock the technique, just not recognizing it *as* a technique. I'm just jackpotting ideas around, based on my own experience, and trying to come up with theories based on that experience. Naturally, I can never know what anyone else experienced. I'm perfectly comfortable with any of the effects I felt from performing the puja being attributable to the trained moodmaking I described earlier. Or they might have been the result of some woo woo. Given a choice between the two, these days I tend to take the path of lesser woo. :-) One of the things that this has gotten me thinking about is how we evaluate past experiences from the POV of the present. I had many interesting exper- iences during my time in the TMO. *At the time* I would have rated them on my internal Woo Scale of 1 to 10 as an 8 or 9. Now, in retrospect, I would rate them more like a 3 or 4. The difference is one of perspective changing over time. At the time I had an experience in the past, I would rate it based on comparing it to all experiences I'd had up to that point. What else *could* I base it on? So in comparison to everything I'd experienced up to then, the experience might feel like a 9 on the Woo Scale. It was Big Woo. But looking back at it now, trying to reassess it thirty-plus years on, it feels more like a 4. Lesser Woo. The reason is that in the years between then and now I've had many more experiences, some of which put the earlier experiences in the shade and raised the bar on my internal Woo Scale. What I used to consider a 9 I now consider a 4. I'm sure you get what I'm talking about.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Thanks for that - all I can say about the Puja is that it worked. It enabled me to use a mantra that transformed my life completely. Having been an altar boy, I can say that the rituals of Christianity, although practiced widely, can't compare to the soft and powerful transcendence of the Puja. I absolutely loved the safe and serene bliss, silence, and absence of thoughts of that first meditation, enough to chase it for years afterward, looking for the unexpected and unanticipated peace that enveloped me that afternoon, and started me on the beginning of a 35 year journey. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchydog@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Patrick, I do not deny your experience with the TM puja, but I would suggest another explanatin for it. I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does, but I would certainly call any subjective effect associated with performing the puja an exercise in trained moodmaking. If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. On my TTC the mind floats on the meaning of the Puja, which happened quite effortlessly after the performing the it hundreds of times. It's not just my hundreds of times that enlivens the Woo Woo-shakti-magic-whatcha-ma-call-it of the Puja, it's the collective performance of TM initiators for many years that enlivens the Puja. Rituals become more powerful over time. Whether it's Dexter collecting blood slides or thousands of priests celebrating the rite of the Holy Eucharist, such rituals evoke a specific quality of energy one plugs into. For me, if I put my attention on it, anything associated with the Puja, a piece of fruit, a flower, a candle, the scent sandalwood, can evoke a feeling of devotion in the heart, a sense of Mother is at Home or the deep comfort one feels enjoying family life. It's an inner smile. Barry will dismiss this as moodmaking of course, but I'd say that when he became an initiator he was simply unable to open his heart to the experience of gratitude and devotion and that's why he's such a sourpuss about TM today. Note to johnt: The Puja has nothing to do with brainwave entrainment. You made that up. Furthermore, studying Bandler and Grinder will never give you any insight into the power of the Puja if you just focus on one individual doing the Puja. Study the years of collective performance of the Puja to enliven the mantras and you might be on to something. I honestly believe that the reverence many TM teachers have for the puja and its magical Woo Woo qualities is based on not being able to tell the difference between a light buzz and a profound shift in one's state of attention. Barry, if you're going to make a distinction implying that a profound shift in one's state of attention is *better* than a light buzz without defining buzz or shift or explaining the difference (as if you have had some such *superior* experience and know the difference) you're just setting up a straw man for the sake of denigrating Patrick's experience of the Puja and being nasty and snide, as usual.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
turquoiseb: The reason is that in the years between then and now I've had many more experiences, some of which put the earlier experiences in the shade and raised the bar on my internal Woo Scale. What I used to consider a 9 I now consider a 4. I'm sure you get what I'm talking about... Yes, I think so: you're thinking you are in CC now, or at least in an enlightened state of 'Woo Woo', right?
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, whynotnow7 whynotnow7@ wrote: Hi Patrick, no need to consider these two failures with coarse nervous systems. They wouldn't feel the puja if it smacked them in the face (and I wish it would). Opinions by one fool who hasn't meditated or done his puja for 40+ years and another who never learned it. Such hubris and BS. Bingo ! Glad you threw in a comment here. I would'nt bother as I see all those havebeens who have opinions on things the haven'nt been doing for 40+ years as completely irrelevant. It is simply bizarre to me why someone who has not done these things for so many years would even care to comment on them. What is the motivation to try and appear an expert, after so many years of not practicing what you preach against? What is the pay-off? It is an odd way to behave.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
whynotnow: It is simply bizarre to me why someone who has not done these things for so many years would even care to comment on them... Vaj reminds me of how John Manning used to spam the Mormon news forum, I guess because John at one time was married to a Mormon girl, back in 1970. But, even Manning said Vaj was a liar and had never learned TM! OCD. An obsessive-compulsive disorder is an anxiety disorder in which people have unwanted and repeated thoughts, feelings, ideas, sensations (obsessions), or behaviors that make them feel driven to do something (compulsions). The acts of those who have OCD may appear paranoid and potentially psychotic. However, OCD sufferers generally recognize their obsessions and compulsions as irrational, and may become further distressed by this realization... 'Obsessive-compulsive disorder' http://tinyurl.com/r37s7o
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. BW: Patrick, I do not deny your experience with the TM puja, but I would suggest another explanatin for it. I wouldn't use the words placebo effect, as Vaj does, but I would certainly call any subjective effect associated with performing the puja an exercise in trained moodmaking. MZ: No moodmaking, trained or otherwise, can account for the experience produced by singing the Puja. It is as experiential as drugs. And one can be doing so many Pujas on a given day of initiating that one loses track of space, time, and *any meaning whatsoever*. The Puja, most particularly in the context of teaching Transcendental Meditation, works its effect on one without any capacity to influence or interfere with that effect. One could in effect perform the Puja, and think to oneselfall the while one is singing the Pujathat: this is all shit, this is stupid, this isn't real, what Barry Wright says about the Puja is what is true. And what would be the effect of this arbitrary imposition of meaning upon the Puja? Almost negligible. Obviously Barry Wright's association with Frederick Lenz killed off his objective memories of what it is like to be a TM initiator, and he was, through this surrender to the mystical context of FL, forced (within himself) to become a revisionist when it came to his own personal history. Barry cannot reconcile his experiences with Frederick Lenz and his experiences when he was one of Maharishi's teachers. To accord the Puja any status other than trained moodmaking is to threaten the stability of the point of view that was as involuntarily produced by his intimate association with the wonders and madness of Frederick Lenzand it is this transfer of allegiance which necessitated the elimination of the point of view Barry previously held about the effects of doing the Puja. The real irony here is that Barry's relationship to Rama (Frederick Lenz) is itself an instance of being affected by a metaphysical context (the singularity of Frederick Lenz's mysticism) over which he has no sayonce, that is, he became a devout disciple of Rama. No trained moodmaking *there*. You cannot, then, reconcile inside your consciousnessat least Barry can'tthese two different forms of spirituality. So Barryfor the sake of maintaining his own internal consistency of belief and point of viewhas to re-construe what happened when he performed the Puja and taught Transcendental Meditation. His analysis is so driven by a compulsion to conceive of Maharishi and TM in a certain way, that the absence of objectivity is obvious. All of what Barry says here to refute Patrick is motivated by a certain subjective reaction to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and his continuing allegiance to the experiences he had under the preternatural magic of Frederick Lenz. BW: If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. MZ: Yes, Barry is right here. But I don't know of anyone who taught TMexcept in an ex post facto sensewho was able to conform to this exhortation of Maharishi's. That Maharishi inspired us with this intention, simply had nothing, or almost nothing, to do with what actually happened in that Puja room. To try to make the case that one's experience of performing the Puja was determined by the extent to which one was able to adhere to these instructions from Maharishi, will not go any ways towards explaining what happened in that Puja room when one sang the Puja, and submitted oneself to the mechanical procedure of teaching TM, a process as impersonal and automatic as the experience of doing Transcendental Meditation. If the Puja was trained moodmaking, then so was TM. (It is interesting that Barry invokes the term moodmaking, which is itself a brilliant concept taught to us by Maharishi. I think you run into trouble if you are using, as
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote: Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi (for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s): *shraddhaa*-viirya-smRti-samaadhi-prajñaa-puurvaka itareSaam! shraddhA f. faith , trust , confidence , trustfulness , faithfulness , belief in... Of course you'd have to accept that TM was a practice that related to the YS - which it does not. But even if it did, the deeper meaning of shraddha as I understood it was having faith that samadhi was the path and that the lineage from the guru was authentic, thus leading us to samadhi, which is a tool for realization. Since we now know two important things: there still is no evidence of higher states of consciousness in TMers as of 2011 and the sad news that MMY was not from the tradition he claimed, it's kind of irrelevant. You could certainly have the faith that MMY was from the tradition he claimed, but given what we know today, you'd be a fool to believe that. But he did put on a very convincing show. My point being such faith depends on the authenticity of the guru, not his stage presence or persona.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 9:40 AM, cardemaister wrote: Well, duh! That's rather exactly what according to PJ seems to be the conditio sine qua non of (asaMprajñaata?)-samaadhi (for upaaya-pratyaya-yogi_s): BTW, it's samprajnata NOT asamprajnata.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Responses interleaved below... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. Agreed, although I would argue that it's pretty common to understand the meaning of words as we say them. :-) We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. You were told about deities? I don't recall any of that. My TTC Phase 3 was in the spring of 1977. I think we were more businesslike. No Maharishi on the course, for example. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. All I recall is my experience, as described in post #294752. [snip] Me, I rarely found there to be any SOC-shifting aspect to performing the puja. I became aware early on that any such feelings were produced *by me*, as a result of whether I indulged in the moodmaking I'd been taught to indulge in or not. Repeat the words without dwelling on the images or meanings I'd been taught to dwell on, and nada...zilch...bupkus. I've noticed a decline in the resulting stillness if I recite the puja without paying attention to it. But heck, I've noticed a decline in everything if I do it without attending to it. On the other hand, I've noticed that being mindful of the feelings of the offerings can enhance the richness of the quietness, rather as the TM-Sidhis do. That one experience goes along with what you're saying. I could just as easily have been reading from the telephone book, for all the change it produced in my state of attention. Well, even reciting the puja absent mindedly produces *some* stilling in me. Add in the mood- making instructions, divide the mind and *expect* there to be a shift in my state of awareness, and I could feel a light buzz. Nothing profound, just a light buzz. The misleading thing about transcending is that it's nothing to shout about. By rights, there would not even be a light buzz. (Careful with the alcohol phrasings or Nabby will dump on you for having beer-soaked consciousness again. :-) So for me, I would not describe the result of the puja as a buzz of any degree. [snip] I fully *understand* the desire to attribute what you feel to something magical or mystical associated with the puja. It's just that, based on my own experience and my own interpretation of the same training we received and performing the same ritual, I don't buy it. I think it's pretty much a classic example of trained moodmaking. Your mileage may vary. Given your explanation, it's odd that I'd stand up for the TM puja when I've fallen away in so many other respects. I don't feel a pull to the TM organization. I don't use a mantra to meditate. The last time I sang the puja with some other 'rus, I did not bow at the end. (The bowing is kind of weird, I'm sure you'll agree.) I appreciate your rap, and I'm responding to express that appreciation. But my explanation is simpler and conforms to the facts before me. Finally, I don't see any of this as being magical or mystical. To me it's pretty simple: We can be centered in our thoughts and feelings or centered in the consciousness that's aware of those thoughts and feelings. Wisdom traditions tend to teach ways to shift one's center to consciousness. Being present is one of the ways to effect the shift, as is the use of mantras that tend to fade away, leaving awareness aware of itself. The puja is another way to effect that shift. It's not magical or mystical. It's a technology, a tool to do some action that would be difficult or impossible without the tool.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jpgillam jpgillam@... wrote: Responses interleaved below... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb wrote: If you think back on it, what could possibly BE more of an exercise in moodmaking than the way we were taught to perform the puja? It (at least as taught on my TTC) was *not* about the mere power of the words and reciting them. We were taught explicitly to (contravening MMY's Don't divide the mind dictum) maintain a constant awareness of the meaning of the words in the puja in our minds while chanting/singing them. Agreed, although I would argue that it's pretty common to understand the meaning of words as we say them. :-) I would say that it's common to *project* the meaning of words we speak onto them as we speak them. :-) We were told endless stories about the personal- ities of the teachers and/or gods and goddesses being invoked by the words of the puja, and taught explicitly to keep a conscious awareness of those meanings in our minds. You were told about deities? I don't recall any of that. My TTC Phase 3 was in the spring of 1977. I think we were more businesslike. No Maharishi on the course, for example. It was also implied in no uncertain terms that the puja was *supposed* to make you high, to change your state of attention and boost you into a higher one. All I recall is my experience, as described in post #294752. And, as stated earlier, I do not dispute this. Your experience was your experience. Nothing I can possibly say can impact that. [snip] Me, I rarely found there to be any SOC-shifting aspect to performing the puja. I became aware early on that any such feelings were produced *by me*, as a result of whether I indulged in the moodmaking I'd been taught to indulge in or not. Repeat the words without dwelling on the images or meanings I'd been taught to dwell on, and nada...zilch...bupkus. I've noticed a decline in the resulting stillness if I recite the puja without paying attention to it. But heck, I've noticed a decline in everything if I do it without attending to it. My intuition is that the paying attention to it factor is more worth paying attention to than the TMO accords it. On the other hand, I've noticed that being mindful of the feelings of the offerings can enhance the richness of the quietness, rather as the TM-Sidhis do. That one experience goes along with what you're saying. If, of course, your objective is the quietness. :-) I could just as easily have been reading from the telephone book, for all the change it produced in my state of attention. Well, even reciting the puja absent mindedly produces *some* stilling in me. From my point of view, that could be a real experience or an unreal one, one based on moodmaking and programmed expectation. If I experienced the stillness you speak of, I could attribute it equally to either source. Could you? Add in the mood- making instructions, divide the mind and *expect* there to be a shift in my state of awareness, and I could feel a light buzz. Nothing profound, just a light buzz. The misleading thing about transcending is that it's nothing to shout about. By rights, there would not even be a light buzz. (Careful with the alcohol phrasings or Nabby will dump on you for having beer-soaked consciousness again. :-) So for me, I would not describe the result of the puja as a buzz of any degree. I would. I fully *understand* the desire to attribute what you feel to something magical or mystical associated with the puja. It's just that, based on my own experience and my own interpretation of the same training we received and performing the same ritual, I don't buy it. I think it's pretty much a classic example of trained moodmaking. Your mileage may vary. Given your explanation, it's odd that I'd stand up for the TM puja when I've fallen away in so many other respects. I don't feel a pull to the TM organization. I don't use a mantra to meditate. The last time I sang the puja with some other 'rus, I did not bow at the end. (The bowing is kind of weird, I'm sure you'll agree.) Just a part of the ritual. I appreciate your rap, and I'm responding to express that appreciation. But my explanation is simpler and conforms to the facts before me. Finally, I don't see any of this as being magical or mystical. To me it's pretty simple: We can be centered in our thoughts and feelings or centered in the consciousness that's aware of those thoughts and feelings. Wisdom traditions tend to teach ways to shift one's center to consciousness. Being present is one of the ways to effect the shift, as is the use of mantras that tend to fade away, leaving awareness aware of itself. The puja is another way to effect that shift. It's not magical or mystical. It's a technology, a tool to do some action that
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:09 AM, turquoiseb wrote: The reason is that in the years between then and now I've had many more experiences, some of which put the earlier experiences in the shade and raised the bar on my internal Woo Scale. What I used to consider a 9 I now consider a 4. I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. Oh yes, definitely. It was a long time before I was able to wrap my head around the fact that TM-style phenomenon were largely mental plane phenomenon. The light mental bliss I thought was so special, was just a mere shadow; the kundalini, mere prana-kundalini and the visions mental mirages. The perspective of time and experience changes everything.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Vag: And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. What Vag is not telling you is that this explanation is just standard Mahayana Buddhist instructions for training in sutra-level meditative concentration (shamata). It is not prescriptive for Mahamudra or Dzogchen. Those instructions are based upon effortlessness, as is the Chinese Zen (Chan) method of silent illumination (Mo-Zhao). --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 8, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Tom Pall wrote: So why do you think people seem to get diminishing returns with decades of doing TM/TMSP? It's all so exciting during the first few years of TM, the first 2 advanced techniques, the first few years of the TMSP.I just can't buy the argument that one's working on deeper and more extensive stress/karma. If that were so, every few years, at least, there's be a lurch forward. But this isn't. Indeed people I know who come to IA for a few months every year and go back home actually find their quality of life degrading. And yes, they pay $25-$50/EUR 25/EUR 50 to get frequent checkings. There's no real mastery of the mind taking place, as it's too languid of a technique IMO. In traditional mantra meditation as I was taught it, the blank thought-free state, and esp. gaps in breathing were considered a sign that it was time to move onto the next stage, which was a more Patanjalian attentional training. Since an individual is more than a mental continuum, there's more to self-mastery than transcending the coarse mental level and imaging one's achieving samadhi. Without a stable foundation for ones telescope one cannot reliably create a subjective facility with which to experience clearly. The subjective facility never becomes reliable. It's like a bouncing telescope trying to observe the inner sky. Without mental vividness, mental perception is entrained as a fuzz. And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. Over time this unmastery becomes hardwired. We're stuck. Getting stuck and staying stuck are great advantages for certain classes of gurus - esp. those with extensive and expensive product lines. It becomes like the Matrix: we don't even realize we're seeing a projected reality and we're actually suspended in an enslaving device intended to utilize our bodily or monetary energy.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
To Vaj: ok, you experienced nothing of value from what you thought was TM but wasn't really. And, you prefer Mindfulness and Vipassana. Very good! http://www.popaganda.com/media/blogs/store/SuperSuppercropped.JPG --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 8, 2011, at 11:09 AM, turquoiseb wrote: The reason is that in the years between then and now I've had many more experiences, some of which put the earlier experiences in the shade and raised the bar on my internal Woo Scale. What I used to consider a 9 I now consider a 4. I'm sure you get what I'm talking about. Oh yes, definitely. It was a long time before I was able to wrap my head around the fact that TM-style phenomenon were largely mental plane phenomenon. The light mental bliss I thought was so special, was just a mere shadow; the kundalini, mere prana-kundalini and the visions mental mirages. The perspective of time and experience changes everything.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:09 PM, Yifu wrote: To Vaj: ok, you experienced nothing of value from what you thought was TM but wasn't really. And, you prefer Mindfulness and Vipassana. Very good! It's all good IMO. There's a lot of wonderful people I would've missed if it weren't for TM. And I treasure it as a learning experience.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:09 PM, emptybill wrote: Vag: And unless one knows how to defeat mental laxity and excitation at the subtle level, one can never reach the level of complete pacification of afflictive emotional states like aggression or cravings. What Vag is not telling you is that this explanation is just standard Mahayana Buddhist instructions for training in sutra-level meditative concentration (shamata). It is not prescriptive for Mahamudra or Dzogchen. Those instructions are based upon effortlessness, as is the Chinese Zen (Chan) method of silent illumination (Mo-Zhao). Exactly. I approach the topic at it's own level. Very good Billy!
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Not as far as I know but some of the subsequent practitioners may have. Milton Erickson did call the state of meditation (transcendence) the state of no trance. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnt johnlasher20002000@ wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect Did Erickson and Bandler and Grinder study the effects of TM initiation specifically, i.e., with the initiate hooked up to an EEG machine? If not, then you're just speculatively extrapolating, and not very convincingly. From what I understand, brainwave entrainment has been studied only using very regular sound frequencies, usually machine- generated, as the stimulus. The passing of the mantra from teacher to initiate in TM doesn't involve anything remotely near that regular. That is, if the mantra is even passed at all, rather than the teacher enlivening, or simply calling the student's attention to, a frequency already present in the student's mind. That sounds like what you're suggesting here: which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning. But this doesn't necessarily involve entrainment per se.(*) I'm in total agreement with Wilber, by the way, about the possibility of understanding religious/spiritual experience in either a mythical or a scientific context (the mythical context being a metaphorical version of the scientific one, when we finally figure out what the latter is). MMY offered both kinds of understanding (even if his nonmythical understanding was only quasi-scientific) and obviously enjoyed the mythical one himself. So I'm not at all opposed to the attempt to understand the process of TM in nonmythical terms. I just don't think the entrainment idea is sufficiently developed or studied to be cited as the definitive approach. - (*) My own theory--not anything MMY ever discussed, as far as I'm aware--is that the mantra sounds live at the most subtle levels of the mind as devata, the processes of knowing. When the TM teacher calls the student's attention to one of them, it becomes chhandas, an object of knowledge. When we meditate, entertaining the mantra involves using that process of knowing (the mantra sound as devata) to *know itself* as that object of knowledge (the mantra sound as chhandas). That creates a feedback loop, like when a microphone apparatus picks up its own sound and magnifies it, only in this case it's a *negative* feedback loop, becoming (as it were) smaller and smaller until it extinguishes itself, leaving the mind without any distinctions between Rishi, the Knower; devata, the process of knowing; and chhandas, the object of knowledge. That's obviously a horrendously crude description of a very vague concept, but I think it's at least potentially consistent with both the experience of TM and MMY's formulation of the Rishi/devata/chhandas structure of consciousness. Of course science hasn't identified any such thing as processes of knowing consisting of subtle sound frequencies at the basis of the mind, so this is even more wildly speculative than the entrainment theory. But if I were a neuroscientist, it's an angle I'd want to pursue. Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 6, 2011, at 9:56 PM, johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. So how do you square the fact that Mahesh was not an actual student of SBS and the fact that TM is a perversion of the purity of what Guru Dev taught? How important could you value the Shank. tradition if you're supporting a distortion and an nonlineal tradition? Or are you just ignoring it and playing pretend?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jpgillam wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. The way we know the TM puja and initiation process acts like a placebo is because independent researchers fabricated a faux-TM instruction and were able to get the exact same results as TM - the same EEG profile and relaxation response, everything. So it's not the mantra at all, it's the inculcation of belief. The puja is dramatic and convincing to most types of people who self-select based on the intro lecture (and we actually know what types of people self-select TM).
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnt johnlasher20002000@... wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect Did Erickson and Bandler and Grinder study the effects of TM initiation specifically, i.e., with the initiate hooked up to an EEG machine? If not, then you're just speculatively extrapolating, and not very convincingly. From what I understand, brainwave entrainment has been studied only using very regular sound frequencies, usually machine- generated, as the stimulus. The passing of the mantra from teacher to initiate in TM doesn't involve anything remotely near that regular. That is, if the mantra is even passed at all, rather than the teacher enlivening, or simply calling the student's attention to, a frequency already present in the student's mind. That sounds like what you're suggesting here: which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning. But this doesn't necessarily involve entrainment per se.(*) I'm in total agreement with Wilber, by the way, about the possibility of understanding religious/spiritual experience in either a mythical or a scientific context (the mythical context being a metaphorical version of the scientific one, when we finally figure out what the latter is). MMY offered both kinds of understanding (even if his nonmythical understanding was only quasi-scientific) and obviously enjoyed the mythical one himself. So I'm not at all opposed to the attempt to understand the process of TM in nonmythical terms. I just don't think the entrainment idea is sufficiently developed or studied to be cited as the definitive approach. - (*) My own theory--not anything MMY ever discussed, as far as I'm aware--is that the mantra sounds live at the most subtle levels of the mind as devata, the processes of knowing. When the TM teacher calls the student's attention to one of them, it becomes chhandas, an object of knowledge. When we meditate, entertaining the mantra involves using that process of knowing (the mantra sound as devata) to *know itself* as that object of knowledge (the mantra sound as chhandas). That creates a feedback loop, like when a microphone apparatus picks up its own sound and magnifies it, only in this case it's a *negative* feedback loop, becoming (as it were) smaller and smaller until it extinguishes itself, leaving the mind without any distinctions between Rishi, the Knower; devata, the process of knowing; and chhandas, the object of knowledge. That's obviously a horrendously crude description of a very vague concept, but I think it's at least potentially consistent with both the experience of TM and MMY's formulation of the Rishi/devata/chhandas structure of consciousness. Of course science hasn't identified any such thing as processes of knowing consisting of subtle sound frequencies at the basis of the mind, so this is even more wildly speculative than the entrainment theory. But if I were a neuroscientist, it's an angle I'd want to pursue. Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jpgillam wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. I thought the placebo effect tended to go away after a few weeks. I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. The way we know the TM puja and initiation process acts like a placebo is because independent researchers fabricated a faux-TM instruction and were able to get the exact same results as TM - the same EEG profile and relaxation response, everything. Somebody needs to ask Vaj to document this claim. Exact same results may not be quite as cut-and-dried as Vaj would like us to believe. Plus which, how long were those instructed by this faux method followed to see if they *continued* to get the purported exact same results? Also, of course, it's not responsive to Patrick's experience of getting the same results for 34 years from *performing* the puja. So it's not the mantra at all, it's the inculcation of belief. The puja is dramatic and convincing to most types of people Convincing of *what*? As Vaj knows (or should know), the significance of the puja is rather strenuously *downplayed* at the introductory level. who self-select based on the intro lecture (and we actually know what types of people self-select TM). Again, Vaj needs to be asked to document his assertions. What types of people are they, and how do we know this? Vaj has a tendency to make sweeping assertions like this; but on the rare occasions when you can get him to provide documentation, it has often turned out that the basis for the assertions is not quite as unequivocal as he makes it sound.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: Acharya Vandana Puja sourced and translated by Paul Mason: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/TMpuja.htm --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Recording of Guru Dev reciting 'Guru Pranam': http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/TMpuja.htm Subject: aavaahanam Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Author: ekihki Date: September 10, 2000 3:43 am http://tinyurl.com/7cvywve The Holy Tradition eki âvâhanam nârâyanaM padmabhavaM vashiSThaM shaktim ca tatputra parasharam ca vyâsaM shukam gauDapadaM mahântaM govinda yogîndra mathâsya shiSyam | shrî shankarâcâryamathâsya padmapâdan ca hastâmalakan ca shiSyam taM troTakam vârtikakâram anyânasmad gurûn santatamânato 'smi || shruti-smRti-purâNânam âlayam karuNâlayam | namâmi bhagavat-pâdam shankaraM lokashankaram || shankaraM shankarâcâryaM keshvaM bâdarâyaNam | sûtra-bhâSya-kRtau vande bhagavantau punaH punaH || yad-dvâre nikhilâ nilimpa-pariSad siddhiM vidhatte 'nisham shrîmat-shrî-lasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvâtmatRptiM gatâH | lokâjñâna payoDa-pâTân-dhuraM shrî shankaram sharmadaM brahmânanda sarasvatîm guruvaraM dhyâyâmi jyotirmayam || Transliterated from the Sanskrit by Borje Mullquist
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
emptybill: This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: It looks like we've got another fib by Vaj, but why would he be fibbing, when it's so easy to source the material? Go figure. Acharya Vandana Puja sourced and translated by Paul Mason: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/TMpuja.htm We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:25 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: emptybill: This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: It looks like we've got another fib by Vaj, but why would he be fibbing, when it's so easy to source the material? Go figure. What did you think I was referring to? Gosh you guys are dim.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:25 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: emptybill: This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: It looks like we've got another fib by Vaj, but why would he be fibbing, when it's so easy to source the material? Go figure. What did you think I was referring to? Gosh you guys are dim. Translation: Oh, jeez, emptybill caught me again. What to do? I know! I'll just pretend I *got* my disinformation from Paul Mason's site. Yeah, that's the ticket...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read it, tell him to take it, it is because he didn't know his life and he said If you don't put it in the Ganges I'll ask someone else to do it. I said, I'll do it. We would have used all those beautiful, sen... poetry. These days you would have enjoyed all. But he wouldn't allow it to remain. He was absolutely divine, simple and great, very great, he was very great.' Note 1. The poet was 'Ashu Kavi', Pandit Veni Madhava Sastri. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi speaking in February / March 1969 in Rishikesh India
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Vaj, you need to apologize for your deceitful subterfuge: http://www.kohngallery.com/ryden/pages/ryden.artwork1.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read it, tell him to take it, it is because he didn't know his life and he said If you don't put it in the Ganges I'll ask someone else to do it. I said, I'll do it. We would have used all those beautiful, sen... poetry. These days you would have enjoyed all. But he wouldn't allow it to remain. He was absolutely divine,
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, jpgillam wrote: I've been getting results from the TM puja for 34 years. It stills my mind. I recite it often, for that purpose. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj wrote: The way we know the TM puja and initiation process acts like a placebo is because independent researchers fabricated a faux-TM instruction and were able to get the exact same results as TM - the same EEG profile and relaxation response, everything. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: [snip]it's not responsive to Patrick's experience of getting the same results for 34 years from *performing* the puja. I should clarify that I don't have to perform the puja to get results. I sing it aloud or recite it mentally. My most profound experience of the stilling power of the puja occurred when I was learning it on my TM teacher training course. One afternoon upon finishing my rounds I sang the puja as I sat on my bed. Afterward, I had intended to mentally review some other material I was memorizing, but I could not summon a thought. I was awake and alert, but I was mentally constipated. I just stared at the wall for a few minutes before I could get a thought to bubble up. That's when I realized that the purpose of the puja was to shift my center from my thoughts and feelings to the stillness of consciousness itself, which, by the way, is a good definition of a first stage of enlightenment.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Since you seem to not be aware of it NLP deals extensively with sound vibration known as auditory tonal as contrasted to auditory digital which deals with the meaning of words. Read a little before you comment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Sorry but I just don't buy the NLP story. It just sounds like a ignorant flatlander theory. On 11/07/2011 12:54 PM, johnt wrote: Since you seem to not be aware of it NLP deals extensively with sound vibration known as auditory tonal as contrasted to auditory digital which deals with the meaning of words. Read a little before you comment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Vaj: The majority of TM initiators not only stopped teaching TM, but have probably even stopped meditating. I am almost certain of this. However, for you to propose that the Puja ceremony works on the basis of the placebo effect is so bizarre and misinformed as to be the same as saying that when you are in a car that is moving, it turns out it is really an illusion: you are actually not going anywhere. Maybe one in a hundred TM initiators (of all those that Maharishi made teachers) still do the Puja;; but even all those who have turned their back on TM and Maharishi, they, to a one, know that *the Puja works*. That is, to say, singing the Puga (especially in the context of teaching someone to meditate) alters one's consciousness, changes one's perception, and acts on every level of one's being, including the physical. Now I personally would never conceive of doing a Puja, because of its very power to change me in a way that I believe is inimical to sustaining the integrity of my own personality.But for you to advance the idea that the effect of singing the Puja is produced by the placebo effect, this is the final evidence of your fraudulent claim to be a TM initiator. And not only this: it proves you never learned TM, because you would not make this claim had you passed through that experience. No, Vaj; you must stop this. Whatever TM, Maharishi, and the Puja are all about, the notion of the placebo effect is utterly inapplicable. I have the strongest resistance and aversion to the TM experience, to Maharishi, to the Puja; but I know this: were I to sing it alone right now, and go through the proper ritualistic motions (and offerings) my consciousness would undergo an objective change, and I would find myself, however subtly, in another context than the one I am in as I write this. TM and the Puja, they do, as Maharishi insisted, operate mechanically. Your attempt to portray the Puja as a placebo effect is so wrong-headed, so false to reality, and therefore such a lie, it would be as if you said that lifting weights cannot affect your muscles. Not one initiator could ever say to himself or herself: That Puja thing; it was just the placebo effect. And if anyone saying he or she was an former initiator said it worked on the basis of the placebo effect, every initiator in the worldwho did not have a dishonest agendawould know that such a person never knew Maharishi, never learned Transcendental Meiditation, and never was a Teacher of TM. The Puja was perhaps the most powerful thing about the whole TM Movement. And it truly bathed us in the purest form of Hinduism. You never got baptized, Vaj. You are an outsider. Even among those of us who have repudiated Maharishi and TM and the beneficence of their influence upon a human being, know that the Puja is anything but something that could have its efficacyexperientiallyon the basis of the placebo effect. You are deceived in this Vaj: Like saying the sensation of the fragrance of a rose is the placebo effect. Or that the effects of fasting are just imagined in the mind. No, Vaj: the Puja is the heart and soul of TM and the TM Movement. And I knew this the moment after I had performed my first Puja and motioned to my initiate to kneel as I was kneeling. The Puja as taught to us by Maharishi is flawless, it is real, and it has a potency that refutes everything you say. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt johnlasher20002000@... wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 3:27 PM, jpgillam jpgil...@yahoo.com wrote: My most profound experience of the stilling power of the puja occurred when I was learning it on my TM teacher training course. One afternoon upon finishing my rounds I sang the puja as I sat on my bed. Afterward, I had intended to mentally review some other material I was memorizing, but I could not summon a thought. I was awake and alert, but I was mentally constipated. I just stared at the wall for a few minutes before I could get a thought to bubble up. That's when I realized that the purpose of the puja was to shift my center from my thoughts and feelings to the stillness of consciousness itself, which, by the way, is a good definition of a first stage of enlightenment. I transcended during the puja and the initiator had to stop and wait for me to come back. I was gone for quite some time. This was so memorable to my initiator that when I made contact with him finally after all these years he repeated asked Who are you?.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Vaj, You should do some research before making such disingenuous statements. Parts of the TM puja actually can be found in the Vishnu kavach which is stated in Srila Prabhupada's commentary to the Srimad Bhagavatam. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:25 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: emptybill: This is the usual disinformation from Vag, the master of misanthropic subterfuge. Here are the reality of the TM Puja: It looks like we've got another fib by Vaj, but why would he be fibbing, when it's so easy to source the material? Go figure. What did you think I was referring to? Gosh you guys are dim.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read it, tell him to take it, it is because he didn't know his life and he said If you don't put it in the Ganges I'll ask someone else to do it. I said, I'll do it. We would have used all
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
[X-(] Vag, your vag is showing. [X-(] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read it, tell him to take it, it is because he didn't know his life and he said If you don't put it
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 9:56 PM, johnt johnlasher20002000@... wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. So how do you square the fact that Mahesh was not an actual student of SBS and the fact that TM is a perversion of the purity of what Guru Dev taught? How important could you value the Shank. tradition if you're supporting a distortion and an nonlineal tradition? Or are you just ignoring it and playing pretend? johnt didn't say anything about valuing the Shank. tradition. It's Vaj who's playing pretend (he means pretending). In any case, as Vaj knows (or should know), MMY made a sharp distinction between the Shank. tradition--i.e., the official, orthodox tradition of the Shankaracharya hierarchy, which he perceived to have become corrupted-- and what he believed to be the *real*, original knowledge tradition of Adi Shankaracharya. As to MMY not being an actual student of Guru Dev, there are more ways of learning from a teacher than being an officially designated student or disciple. And whether what MMY taught was a perversion of the purity of Guru Dev's teaching is a definitional issue. What MMY taught was different in some respects from what Guru Dev taught, but so were (and are) the people MMY taught. There's an excellent case to be made that MMY's teaching was an effective adaptation of the *core* of Guru Dev's teaching for a global audience, as opposed to Guru Dev's audience of devout Hindus. From another of Vaj's posts: We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled [sic--he means cobbled] together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. Four lines thereof. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. Whether it's magical is arguable. But if it isn't, it's not because MMY added four lines praising Guru Dev.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
It's cobbled from a number of different recitations and shuddhis including the guru puja. The tradition of masters is the only thing that is probably TM unique. There is no one standard puja. Offerings different and length according to who is performing the puja. On 11/07/2011 01:50 PM, Susan wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vajvajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when the pandit went out of the room he asked him to take it to the Ganges, tie it down with a big stone, heavy, put it in the Ganges. And I, it was a shock to me, I said But, but there are beautiful passages in it. He said, Don't talk!' He said, Nobody should read
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Right - also most of it is identical to the ritualistic verses in Muktananda's texts dispensed in the SYDA org...; except for the part going Brahmananda Saraswati, ... Vaj has discredited himself, exposing his true identity as a mere Snow Yak: http://www.kohngallery.com/ryden/pages/ryden.artwork6.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Susan wayback71@... wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 12:18 PM, richardwillytexwilliams wrote: Vaj: ...it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up. What exactly, are the parts by MMY that are different from those recited by GD? From what I've heard, the MMY GD puja is standard - I've heard it recited by at least three sources other than the TMO, such as at a recent Sri Sri Ravi Shankar yoga camp. Sri Sri says it's the same as the one recited by GD, the one recited at the Jyortirmath Peeth in the Himalayas. Explain how Mahesh used what was to be thrown away to hobble together the puja: http://www.paulmason.info/gurudev/sources/text/MMY.htm Right from the very early times, MMY definitely claimed that the meditation he teaches (TM) was taught to him by Guru Dev [a fact now known to be false]. A look at page 244 of 'Thirty Years Around the World' (a TMO publication by Maharishi Vedic University, 1986) confirms this. Allegedly on 29th April 1959 Maharishi Mahesh Yogi told journalists:- 'My life truly began 19 years ago at the feet of my master when I learned the secret of swift and deep meditation, a secret I now impart to the world.' In the TM puja there are four lines which refer directly to Guru Dev: yadvaare nikhilaa nilimpaparishatsiddhiM vidhatte.anisham shrimat shriilasitaM jagadgurupadaM natvaa.atmatR^iptiM gataaH lokaaGYaanapayoda paaTanadhuraM shriisha~NkaraM sharmadam brahmaanandasaraswatiiM guruvaraM dhyaayaami jyotirmayam which means:- 'At whose door the whole galaxy of gods pray for perfection day and night. Adorned by immeasurable glory, preceptor of the whole world, having bowed down to Him, we gain fulfilment. Skilled in dispelling the cloud of ignorance of the people, the gentle emancipator, Brahmananda Saraswati, the supreme teacher, full of brilliance, on Him we meditate.' Maharishi explains who wrote these lines:- 'This was done by us, I didn't compose those lines, because I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but this was done by a, very, very eminent Sanskrit poet of Banares, and he was, such a mysterious man, the poet 1. He used to live us, just like us, and a good pandit, and when some, some pandits, learned people used to come to pay their respects to Guru Dev, and he would sit like that. And generally it is traditional, that in the presence of Shankaracharya, pandits gather. Pandits mean the learned people, highly great intellectuals of the country. They sit together, and they, try to bring home to Shankaracharya, each one of them, that he is the greater pandit than the others. And these dialogues are so highly intellectual and so very interesting, because they, everyone wants to, to win the grace of Shankaracharya, apart from his spiritual development for their material glorification, because a certificate from the Shankaracharya, of the great learning of the pandits will make him flourish in his area. So, they, very beautiful, and this pandit he used to defeat everyone, because he was a born poet, poet. He would versify anything that he wants to say. In poetry he would speak. And when in poetry, and so fluent and so high-class, so, high-class fluent Sanskrit poetry, and others would just sit and listen to him, what he says. He was very dear, sweet pandit. He wrote lots of stanzas of Guru Dev, absolutely and, and this was one of them. What happened was... this is very interesting this great pandit in his flight of, of the poet, he wrote Guru Dev's life, and he, he didn't know Guru Dev's life. Because all the time was spent in loneliness in the jungles, and, nobody would know. And he said to me, I am going to write. And I said Yes, you write, and this was our agreement that I'll get it printed, and he wrote, and I enjoyed it so much, but someday it was to come to Guru Dev for sanction. So, Guru Dev, he enjoyed hearing the whole thing. It was highly scholarly and very great, and everything that, that a good poet could put in that, he put it. And then, when it was finished Guru Dev said, It's very good, yes. And when
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:18 PM, maskedzebra wrote: The majority of TM initiators not only stopped teaching TM, but have probably even stopped meditating. I am almost certain of this. That's true. It was actually true before recertification was required. However, for you to propose that the Puja ceremony works on the basis of the placebo effect is so bizarre and misinformed as to be the same as saying that when you are in a car that is moving, it turns out it is really an illusion: you are actually not going anywhere. Maybe one in a hundred TM initiators (of all those that Maharishi made teachers) still do the Puja;; but even all those who have turned their back on TM and Maharishi, they, to a one, know that *the Puja works*. That is, to say, singing the Puga (especially in the context of teaching someone to meditate) alters one's consciousness, changes one's perception, and acts on every level of one's being, including the physical. Well it's important to understand the context of the comment. Early TM marketing emphasized that TM was unique, you could get a mantra anywhere, but nothing was like TM - or so they wanted us and the public to believe. A couple dozen lousy research studies attempted to bolster the idea. If you were part of the TM buzz, you felt special, part of an in crowd, and possessor of something unique, lineal and ancient-but-scientific. Neuroscientists were of course interested to see if there actually was something unique, as claimed. One after one, all the key claims were found to be false: -it was not unique, it was actually a common relaxation response. -researchers used methodology to isolate the mantra as a variable and found there was also nothing special about the mantra - the TM experience (neurologically speaking) wasn't unique at all. It could be replicated with faux-TM in naive subjects. -metabolic rate, alleged to be much deeper than deep sleep also turned out to be false (and it appeared Wallace had used vey deceptive methodology to fake the results). TM was actually no different from a nap. -etc., etc. Now I personally would never conceive of doing a Puja, because of its very power to change me in a way that I believe is inimical to sustaining the integrity of my own personality.But for you to advance the idea that the effect of singing the Puja is produced by the placebo effect, this is the final evidence of your fraudulent claim to be a TM initiator. And not only this: it proves you never learned TM, because you would not make this claim had you passed through that experience. I would actually say most of the puja could be attributed to expectation effect from indoctrination, that expectation creating a style of placebo effect. Having said that, there are subtle aspects of mantra that allude the blade of science. But again, they're highly subjective - and since TM does not aim to balance attention nor does it allow a mindful clarify of the object of meditation, it's like trying to look at the stars through a telescope and hoping to see them clearly. The object of meditation largely remains a fuzzy buzz alternating with a comfortable laya. It's very comfortable and those with previous awakening of their shakti can progress. Others tend to languish and sleep. The principle of charm it turns out, isn't charming enough. Consciousness is not discerned clearly, but one is indoctrinated that mental silence IS pure consciousness. Tell it to someone else. No, Vaj; you must stop this. Whatever TM, Maharishi, and the Puja are all about, the notion of the placebo effect is utterly inapplicable. I have the strongest resistance and aversion to the TM experience, to Maharishi, to the Puja; but I know this: were I to sing it alone right now, and go through the proper ritualistic motions (and offerings) my consciousness would undergo an objective change, and I would find myself, however subtly, in another context than the one I am in as I write this. TM and the Puja, they do, as Maharishi insisted, operate mechanically. Your attempt to portray the Puja as a placebo effect is so wrong-headed, so false to reality, and therefore such a lie, it would be as if you said that lifting weights cannot affect your muscles. Not one initiator could ever say to himself or herself: That Puja thing; it was just the placebo effect. And if anyone saying he or she was an former initiator said it worked on the basis of the placebo effect, every initiator in the world—who did not have a dishonest agenda—would know that such a person never knew Maharishi, never learned Transcendental Meiditation, and never was a Teacher of TM. The Puja was perhaps the most powerful thing about the whole TM Movement. And it truly bathed us in the purest form of Hinduism. You never got baptized, Vaj. You are an outsider. Even among those of us who have repudiated Maharishi and TM and the beneficence of their
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
As a former TM teacher who taught hundreds of people but no longer practices TM, I would say that MZ is absolutely correct here in every point he so eloquently makes. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, maskedzebra no_reply@... wrote: Vaj: The majority of TM initiators not only stopped teaching TM, but have probably even stopped meditating. I am almost certain of this. However, for you to propose that the Puja ceremony works on the basis of the placebo effect is so bizarre and misinformed as to be the same as saying that when you are in a car that is moving, it turns out it is really an illusion: you are actually not going anywhere. Maybe one in a hundred TM initiators (of all those that Maharishi made teachers) still do the Puja;; but even all those who have turned their back on TM and Maharishi, they, to a one, know that *the Puja works*. That is, to say, singing the Puga (especially in the context of teaching someone to meditate) alters one's consciousness, changes one's perception, and acts on every level of one's being, including the physical. Now I personally would never conceive of doing a Puja, because of its very power to change me in a way that I believe is inimical to sustaining the integrity of my own personality.But for you to advance the idea that the effect of singing the Puja is produced by the placebo effect, this is the final evidence of your fraudulent claim to be a TM initiator. And not only this: it proves you never learned TM, because you would not make this claim had you passed through that experience. No, Vaj; you must stop this. Whatever TM, Maharishi, and the Puja are all about, the notion of the placebo effect is utterly inapplicable. I have the strongest resistance and aversion to the TM experience, to Maharishi, to the Puja; but I know this: were I to sing it alone right now, and go through the proper ritualistic motions (and offerings) my consciousness would undergo an objective change, and I would find myself, however subtly, in another context than the one I am in as I write this. TM and the Puja, they do, as Maharishi insisted, operate mechanically. Your attempt to portray the Puja as a placebo effect is so wrong-headed, so false to reality, and therefore such a lie, it would be as if you said that lifting weights cannot affect your muscles. Not one initiator could ever say to himself or herself: That Puja thing; it was just the placebo effect. And if anyone saying he or she was an former initiator said it worked on the basis of the placebo effect, every initiator in the world�who did not have a dishonest agenda�would know that such a person never knew Maharishi, never learned Transcendental Meiditation, and never was a Teacher of TM. The Puja was perhaps the most powerful thing about the whole TM Movement. And it truly bathed us in the purest form of Hinduism. You never got baptized, Vaj. You are an outsider. Even among those of us who have repudiated Maharishi and TM and the beneficence of their influence upon a human being, know that the Puja is anything but something that could have its efficacy�experientially�on the basis of the placebo effect. You are deceived in this Vaj: Like saying the sensation of the fragrance of a rose is the placebo effect. Or that the effects of fasting are just imagined in the mind. No, Vaj: the Puja is the heart and soul of TM and the TM Movement. And I knew this the moment after I had performed my first Puja and motioned to my initiate to kneel as I was kneeling. The Puja as taught to us by Maharishi is flawless, it is real, and it has a potency that refutes everything you say. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Nov 6, 2011, at 8:58 PM, johnt johnlasher20002000@ wrote: You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning It's called the placebo effect silly. We actually now know where the TM puja came from and what sources the puja was hobbled together from. It's from a pundits poem that Mahesh was told to throw away. There's nothing magical about it at all - unless you believe it is. But it does not come from a real lineal tradition, it's something Mahesh made up.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:40 PM, John wrote: Vaj, You should do some research before making such disingenuous statements. Parts of the TM puja actually can be found in the Vishnu kavach which is stated in Srila Prabhupada's commentary to the Srimad Bhagavatam. I'm well aware that it was hobbled together from various sources already John. I actually remember Paul Mason being kind enough to write to a bunch of us and show us his research on it's origins. Of course posting it here met with an, uh, silence. Now all the sudden everyones seeming to catch up to most of it, except the part where SBS insisted it be attached to a heavy rock and hurled into the Ganges...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Susan wrote: Wait a minute, Vaj. The TM puja is the same as used by many Hindus. When I initiated Hindus from India they could sing it along with me - pretty much word for word. What ever else you might think of TM, this is not something MMY hobbled together at all. I think you should review the evidence. The melody is traditional and occurs in numerous other rituals, as are other pieces of it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Bhairitu wrote: It's cobbled from a number of different recitations and shuddhis including the guru puja. The tradition of masters is the only thing that is probably TM unique. There is no one standard puja. Offerings different and length according to who is performing the puja. And we now know at least part of it was done by a poet-pandit and retrieved instead of destroyed despite the insistence of his master. Such is the karma of Asuriac gurus the west is oh so familiar with. Vimalananda was right.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:00 PM, feste37 wrote: As a former TM teacher who taught hundreds of people but no longer practices TM, I would say that MZ is absolutely correct here in every point he so eloquently makes. If I may ask: why on earth did you stop doing TM Feste?
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
There's a Magical quality to TM you'll never get unless you actually do it. No amount of data regarding the outer, superficial properties of TM can penetrate the outer coverings (what can be written down in a book); and get into the Absolute heart of the matter. A pissing contest enumerating academic and/or historial references is hopeless; ultimately speaking...although such discourses are sometimes interesting. http://www.fantasygallery.net/fishel/art_0_Teutopolis.html --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 4:57 PM, Bhairitu wrote: It's cobbled from a number of different recitations and shuddhis including the guru puja. The tradition of masters is the only thing that is probably TM unique. There is no one standard puja. Offerings different and length according to who is performing the puja. And we now know at least part of it was done by a poet-pandit and retrieved instead of destroyed despite the insistence of his master. Such is the karma of Asuriac gurus the west is oh so familiar with. Vimalananda was right.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:00 PM, feste37 wrote: As a former TM teacher who taught hundreds of people but no longer practices TM, I would say that MZ is absolutely correct here in every point he so eloquently makes. If I may ask: why on earth did you stop doing TM Feste?
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Frankly I don't give a rat's ass what you buy or don't --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: Sorry but I just don't buy the NLP story. It just sounds like a ignorant flatlander theory. On 11/07/2011 12:54 PM, johnt wrote: Since you seem to not be aware of it NLP deals extensively with sound vibration known as auditory tonal as contrasted to auditory digital which deals with the meaning of words. Read a little before you comment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: The first thing any research needs to do is to learn the procedures and they won't do that so they'll always be spectators and draw false conclusions. Shakti is simply life force, a concept beyond the ability of contemporary science to understand. One should also look into the yoga of sound and understand how sound effects people, not in an NLP way but a vibratory way. It's more physics than anything else. Mantras work due to their resonance and charged they work faster than when they're not. You'll see in books the instruction where one must repeat a certain mantra 100,000 times to get results. But that's from the book and if give by a guru it may take only 100 repetitions. On 11/06/2011 09:22 PM, johnt wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
If so, do you consider yourself to be in cosmic consciousness or higher? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, feste37 feste37@... wrote: Good question. I did TM for more than 30 years, but then about 7 or 8 years ago, I lost the desire to do it. This happened quite quickly, as I recall, over a period of maybe a few months. I just no longer had any desire to meditate, so I stopped doing it and have never gone back to it. Having said that, I still think it's a good technique that can dramatically change people's lives for the better, especially in the first year or so of practice, although I don't think it accomplishes all that its most ardent advocates claim for it, especially over the long term. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Nov 7, 2011, at 6:00 PM, feste37 wrote: As a former TM teacher who taught hundreds of people but no longer practices TM, I would say that MZ is absolutely correct here in every point he so eloquently makes. If I may ask: why on earth did you stop doing TM Feste?
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. Â Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra. yep a darshan entrainment effect of the awakened.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra. yep a darshan entrainment effect of the awakened. Also why Guru Dev and Maharishi encouraged people to sit with saints. The spiritual entrainment of the company you keep.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxUXAMUeGk --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. please please do not make the walking mantra of my kids public!! Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
thanks ..now finally i got it [:D] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: Also why Guru Dev and Maharishi encouraged people to sit with saints. The spiritual entrainment of the company you keep...a wide acceptance by the medical community do adopt the practice of brainwave entrainment for emotional/mental disorders Evolutionary function of entrainment: an important part of achieving the specific altered state of consciousness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_state_of_consciousness , battle trance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_trance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrainment_%28biomusicology%29#cite_note-\ 1 , in which humans lose their individuality, do not feel fear and pain, are united in a shared http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_identity collective identity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_identity ,(see collective identity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_identity / social identity theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_identity ), collective consciousnesses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness , creating a mechanical solidarity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_%28sociology%29 through mutual likeness, and act in the best interests of World Peace!
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Denise, I do TM and I do not see it as brainwashing, other than washing the brain of clutter, naturally. I like it. It makes me feel good. All the crap of people trying to manipulate in the TMO, are only that of people who had previously manipulating behaviors, IMHO, and not the result of practicing TM, in itself. Although, it took me quite a few years to figure it out and I have been fooled by some of them. The fools anger me to no end, because they can make what looks good appear like a piece of shit. This category of, fools, does not include people with claims of injury and hurt by people in the organization or people who may have had a bad experience with the presenter, the Maharishi. I believe these people have a right to express their opinion and also seek comforting or similar words to help them cope with whatever it was that made them sad, pissed off, or even stop meditating. They are not judged as any kind of losers in my thinking sphere. I had to really look at the source of my frustrations and that being how I viewed those who idol worship and are on power trips. I will probably continue to bash the idiots on this FFL board, but that does not mean I am bashing TM or any other practice that brings people peace and bliss. I could not have learned it from a book, because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5035TY5RSpg my questions exceed what a book can answer. I have met good TM teachers and bad TM teachers. For the most part, having friends who practice this same practice does not make a mold one could formulate the same stereotype person from, as all opinions differ among this same practicing group. I have lots of very good friends who meditate and lots who do not meditate. I am happy with them all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Entrainment...expressed beautifully in a song. From: merudanda no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:30 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbxUXAMUeGk --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. please please do not make the walking mantra of my kids public!! Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
I hear you. I'm going to check this out, here, because it's accessible and easy and I'm lazy. I don't join groups and never say pledges, but it's time to try out a few new things. http://seattleinsight.org/ From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Denise, I do TM and I do not see it as brainwashing, other than washing the brain of clutter, naturally. I like it. It makes me feel good. All the crap of people trying to manipulate in the TMO, are only that of people who had previously manipulating behaviors, IMHO, and not the result of practicing TM, in itself. Although, it took me quite a few years to figure it out and I have been fooled by some of them. The fools anger me to no end, because they can make what looks good appear like a piece of shit. This category of, fools, does not include people with claims of injury and hurt by people in the organization or people who may have had a bad experience with the presenter, the Maharishi. I believe these people have a right to express their opinion and also seek comforting or similar words to help them cope with whatever it was that made them sad, pissed off, or even stop meditating. They are not judged as any kind of losers in my thinking sphere. I had to really look at the source of my frustrations and that being how I viewed those who idol worship and are on power trips. I will probably continue to bash the idiots on this FFL board, but that does not mean I am bashing TM or any other practice that brings people peace and bliss. I could not have learned it from a book, because http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5035TY5RSpg my questions exceed what a book can answer. I have met good TM teachers and bad TM teachers. For the most part, having friends who practice this same practice does not make a mold one could formulate the same stereotype person from, as all opinions differ among this same practicing group. I have lots of very good friends who meditate and lots who do not meditate. I am happy with them all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
try reading some of Bandler and Grinder and some NLP research and educate yourself or just stay stupid --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. Â Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Thanks. I might. Judy also pointed out that I don't understand the meaning of the term brainwashing. It was an off the cuff remark better left unsaid - I apologize. Stupid's o.k. with me though. From: johnt johnlasher20002...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK try reading some of Bandler and Grinder and some NLP research and educate yourself or just stay stupid --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Sheeet. Â Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
You never will in a TM context, but if you study some of Milton Erickson, Bandler and Grinder and other related sources you will find that each part of a TM initiation has a well studied neurolinguistic effect which in this case is very effective at producing a self transcending accessing cue which accesses an experience at a primal (original) level prior to subsequent conditioning. Nope. It's not necessarily what *TM* is, either. I don't know where johnt picked up this purported explanation, but I've never encountered it in the TM context. From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK (Denise)
Denise, In rereading my post I don't mean to say you're stupid. I just mean that there is a large body of knowledge that it's (stupid) not to look into if you really have the interest. Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you were stupid. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@... wrote: Thanks. Â I might. Â Judy also pointed out that I don't understand the meaning of the term brainwashing. Â It was an off the cuff remark better left unsaid - I apologize. Â Stupid's o.k. with me though. Â From: johnt johnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â try reading some of Bandler and Grinder and some NLP research and educate yourself or just stay stupid --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Sheeet. ÃÂ Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK ÃÂ Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK (Denise)
By the way I think what you would find is that we go through life brainwashed and transcending the conditioned sense of self gradually releases one from this (or at least loosens the grip). --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnt johnlasher20002000@... wrote: Denise, In rereading my post I don't mean to say you're stupid. I just mean that there is a large body of knowledge that it's (stupid) not to look into if you really have the interest. Sorry if it seemed like I was saying you were stupid. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Thanks. Â I might. Â Judy also pointed out that I don't understand the meaning of the term brainwashing. Â It was an off the cuff remark better left unsaid - I apologize. Â Stupid's o.k. with me though. Â From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Â try reading some of Bandler and Grinder and some NLP research and educate yourself or just stay stupid --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Denise Evans dmevans365@ wrote: Sheeet. ÃÂ Is that what brainwashing is? From: johnt johnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK ÃÂ Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@... wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK
No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process know in neurophysiology as entrainment. Brainwave entrainment or brainwave synchronization, is any practice that aims to cause brainwave frequencies to fall into step with a periodic stimulus having a frequency corresponding to the intended brain-state. This is only one of the Neuro effects of a TM initiation which is a very well crafted design of several which lead to a self transcending effect of the mantra.
[FairfieldLife] Re: WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK (Ken Wilber)
Ken Wilber's Integral Psychology offers a way of understanding religious traditions while allowing that there are different levels of understanding. One can be describing a tradition in a mythical manner with descriptions of deities and magical forces. Then again one can describe the same thing from the rational approach. Both ways of describing a truth are accurate but the psychological framework is different. For example the process of meditation can be understood as removing samskaras or it can be understood as removing subconscious psychological conditioned programs. Transcending can be understood as bringing one to Pure Being, Sat, or progressively allowing one to experience successively prior stages of experiences until they experience the most basic experience and the prior to that consciousness with no contend. As ken Wilber puts it: There are arguably the two most important tasks of religion in the 21st-century. The first is to fix our broken religious institutions, creating genuine rational approaches to spirituality in all of our major traditions that can actually meet people where they are while nurturing their growth through magical, mythical, rational, postmodern, and integral stages of development. This alone would help relieve the incredible cultural tension that currently exists between religion and science, closing the massive gap that between faith and reason. The second is to revive the esoteric teachings at the core of every religion for an entirely new generation of spiritual seekers, practitioners, and church-goers. By bringing the transformative practices of contemplation, meditation, and prayer to the forefront of worship, we can begin tapping into a very real technology of liberation, offering an alternative to blind faith by allowing people to experience for themselves the effulgent divinity of the world, of our relationships, and of our own blessed hearts and minds. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, johnt johnlasher20002000@... wrote: No one can explain what the shakti energy is yet but they certainly agree it can be passed on through the process known as entrainment. There is some early research that may indicate that shakti can be seen on kirlian photography and others can be seen being entrained by it, but it's still early in the process of understanding. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: I'm talking about shakti which is an energy. You should be experiencing it when you meditate. I can transfer that energy to someone else without saying a word, just by touching them. So explain that by NLP. You can't. They are going down the wrong road though they wouldn't be the first researchers to do that by any means. ;-) On 11/06/2011 06:56 PM, johnt wrote: Then what is it saying. Be precise I value tradition in the sense that it preserves elements that are life supporting, it doesn't tell me how it works. That's what modern psychologists are only beginning to try and do do. Vedic masters were masters of what's now becoming NLP, however people just parroting what they heard doesn't show understanding. What exactly do YOU mean by charged --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: Oh yes it does. Centuries of tantrics and yogis would argue with you on that. These guys you are talking about are blind men feeling an elephant. :-D On 11/06/2011 06:00 PM, johnt wrote: charge is a nice ooga booga term that says nothing. It's only part of philosophy not science unless you understand it in the sense of Rupert sheldrake' morphic field, in which case your saying the same thing I am. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitunoozguru@ wrote: That's a wild ass theory trying to make the puja sound scientific. What the puja actually does is charge the mantra. In other traditions you are given the mantra by someone who has enough juice to charge the mantra with shakti without the need for a puja. Reciting a 3-4 minute puja takes it place. It would have taken years to create even a small army of TM teachers the traditional way. The traditional way is what Muktananda used and his instructors gave shaktipat along with the mantra. It is also the way my tantra teacher has instructed me to teach people. On 11/05/2011 11:48 PM, Denise Evans wrote: Sheeet. Is that what brainwashing is? From: johntjohnlasher20002000@ To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 11:17 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] WHY TM CAN'T BE LEARNED FROM A BOOK Why TM can't be learned from a book A TM initiation alters the brainwave pattern of the one performing the puja. When the teacher then passes on the mantra to the person learning meditation he also passes on a brainwave state by a process
