subject:"Re\: \[FairfieldLife\] Re\: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..."

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness





on 3/2/06 11:14 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Would you like to see the scar on my ass? 

I'd love to show that to you! :-)

Reminds me of Forrest Gump and LBJ.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 11:57 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip perhaps I felt it in bad
 form to talk of my own pointing-out and recognition, brag about it
 in  
 public or discuss the details of how the View was tested and
 verified? I know it's all the rage, discussing of experiences and
 so on--but didn't you ever wonder about those who knew the point of
 non-discussion of experience?
 
 Just want to add that in my case I am not bragging. What is there to
 brag about? 
 
 The reasons I discuss my experience of awakening openly is, one,
 because there is an opportunity to do so, where at least some of the
 folks reading understand what is being discussed, and two, I
 personally feel that it is important to let people know that ordinary
 chumps, like me, can achieve such a state.

Good point. I respect Vaj's knowledge and experience, but I have a hard time
believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not
enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail
driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising
the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing
things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 12:45 PM, TurquoiseB at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's *ever*
 been like that. Shankara farted and shat just like
 everyone else does.

I read that he had an anal fistula that bled and caused him a great deal of
discomfort.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:but I have a hard time believing that people like Eckhart Tolle and Bernadette Roberts are not enlightened merely because they couldn't be oblivious to having a nail driven through their foot or that they cast a shadow. I think he's raising the bar too high. Seems to me that enlightenment is a matter of seeing things clearly. It doesn't mean you're Superman. Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.

The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big.

So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling enlightenment which doesnt necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:30 PM, sparaig at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some
 text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't
 takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming
 isn't relevant to witnessing.

He seems to feel that a fully enlightened person should be able to go into a
state in which one would be unaware that the nail had been driven. In other
words, senses completely shut down or withdrawn. I'm not convinced that that
ability is a necessary criterion of enlightenment. It seems more like a
specialized sidhi.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness



On Mar 2, 2006, at 4:30 PM, sparaig wrote:As far as I can tell, Vaj is misinterpretting/over-interpretting some  text taht talks about how even a nail driven into one's hand won't  takethem out of samadhi. But that's the definition of CC. Screaming  isn't relevant to witnessing. Actually the quote was Robert Svoboda quoting his master, the Aghori Vimalananda. SO shouldn't you be saying that Robbie or Vimalananda is mis- or over-interpreting this?Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi? Had you forgotten about that?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 2:47 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 1:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well let's not take these two items out of context. The nail story of Vimalananda refers to a person who claimed the ability to be in a certain type of samadhi. The fact that he did experience pain in that style of samadhi only means he was not really in that style of samadhi. It really says little about enlightenment per se.The lack of casting of the shadow describes a certain aspect of unity, but is only really relevant in a style of enlightenment where the karmic supports for the physical body are transforming. And it's extremely rare, let alone witnessed. Nonetheless it's an occurrence I like to mention when britches get too many sizes too big. So is there a state which you would feel comfortable labeling “enlightenment” which doesn’t necessarily include these extraordinary states and abilities, and which normal folks might attain after 30-40 years of regular spiritual practice?It's all going to hinge on how you define the english word "enlightenment". Very vague word.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 3:53 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Rick, wasn't it you who shared the story of M. and the meeting with another meditation teacher whose students could go into an insensate samadhi?

Yes, I told that story, having heard it from somewhere. There are also stories of Maharishi and Amma doing this. The Maharishi story, as I heard it, was that he was in some mountain cabin in California where he wanted to be left alone for a while to work on a book or something. There was a big snow storm and people couldnt get up there for a few days. When they finally did, they found him sitting in samadhi, half covered with snow, with the window open. When he came out he was none the worse for wear. Dont know the veracity of the story.

Had you forgotten about that?

No. Im sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that Im not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But thats really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.

I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.

One of Maharishis secretaries told me that Maharishis weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I dont know if they were all that way.

I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.

Hadnt heard that.

Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.

Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.

Did you master them?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

On Mar 2, 2006, at 8:25 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mar 2, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Rick Archer wrote:No. I’m sure such things are possible. There are stories in the Puranas too. My only point is that I’m not convinced that such an ability is an essential prerequisite for enlightenment. But that’s really just an opinion based on my current knowledge and experience. Subject to revision, as always. My feeling is this style of samadhi is just one means of investigating consciousness, not the only one. For the Patanjali yogins, it's real important--it's also used in some types of Buddhist meditation where the importance has to to with stability of the awareness which investigates consciousness. The deep silence allows for attentional stability and the vividness needed.I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to a "continuum of silence" for days. He used it to check on the status of the universe it claimed.One of Maharishi’s secretaries told me that Maharishi’s weekly silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out reams of notes. I don’t know if they were all that way.I was also told that these techniques were passed on to select group of purushas.Hadn’t heard that.Hard to verify if any of this is true or just fabrication. At the time of course I believed every word.Eventually I just stopped caring, found someone who knew the methods and went off and learned them on my own.Did you master them? Not by a long shot, but dying is easier than I thought :-), it's coming back that can be difficult. These are practices done over a lifetime.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness

on 3/2/06 8:48 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 3/2/06 5:46 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip 
 I used to receive a hand-typed newsletter from someone on Purusha
 and he also described a similar story with M. albeit that this
 would take place over a weeks time, every year. He used a
 lightproof and temperature controlled room, and his body had to be
 wrapped in a certain prescribed manner, then off he went to
 a continuum of silence for days. He used it to check on the status
 of the universe it claimed.
 
 One of Maharishi¹s secretaries told me that Maharishi¹s weekly
 silences were working sessions. He would take food and crank out
 reams of notes. I don¹t know if they were all that way.
 
 Doesn't he do a week of silence every year just before
 his birthday in January, when he proclaims the theme
 for the coming year?

Yes.

I remember seeing a tape of his
 address just after supposedly coming out of silence one
 year (many years ago), in which he was draped in a
 beige shawl and spoke quite softly but looked very
 blissful.  It's the only time I recall seeing him
 wearing anything over his white outfit.

He had a Chartreuse shawl over his shoulders. Still wore the dhoti.
 
 We were told he didn't eat or drink anything during the
 week of silence, and that he always looked rather frail
 when he came out.

Yes. I've been there several times when he came out. Very profound darshan,
although now I wonder if he was acting a bit to embellish the impression.
Maybe sometimes he didn't eat or drink during silence, but one of his
secretaries told me that sometimes he did.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 TorquiseB writes: snipped
  Those who say
 that they have experienced the goal that is shared
 by pretty much the entire group (for example, 
 enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
 the group who have not had such an experience.
 One would think they'd be happy that someone is
 actually getting what they paid for, but the 
 reality is sadly often the opposite.
 
 Tom T:
 Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
 even insinuate that
 you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor
 do you have all
 the requirements that has been heard on numerous
 courses 30 long years
 ago forgotten are all the details of even where this
 course was but
 the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
 memorized in
 concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
 Tom T

And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.


 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 11:05 PM, purushaz wrote:---Statement below (Enlightened person has an option to stop pain) is incorrect.  Enlightenment does not imply particular (or any) Siddhis, which have to do with relative endeavors..  Why stop with control over pain?  Why not say that Enlightened people can fly through the air 108 miles?  Show me a text that Enlightened people can control pain and I'll swallow some nails.   The original story referred to people in a particular style of samadhi.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote:--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TorquiseB writes: snipped Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. Tom T: Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you even insinuate that you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy nor do you have all the requirements that has been heard on numerous courses 30 long years ago forgotten are all the details of even where this course was but the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been memorized in concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually. Tom T And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then!

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Mar 1, 2006, at 7:17 AM, Peter wrote:
 
  --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 
  TorquiseB writes: snipped
   Those who say
  that they have experienced the goal that is
 shared
  by pretty much the entire group (for example,
  enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in
  the group who have not had such an experience.
  One would think they'd be happy that someone is
  actually getting what they paid for, but the
  reality is sadly often the opposite.
 
  Tom T:
  Particularly here. If I ain't got it how dare you
  even insinuate that
  you even have a whiff of it. You are not worthy
 nor
  do you have all
  the requirements that has been heard on numerous
  courses 30 long years
  ago forgotten are all the details of even where
 this
  course was but
  the exact way it has to be, to be awake has been
  memorized in
  concrete. Go figure. Quite funny actually.
  Tom T
 
 
  And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
  realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.
 
 I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up
 the possibility  
 that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang
 culture is actually  
 Spiritual Codependence?
 
 Never mind then!

Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does
sound interesting.



 
 
 
 


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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.

In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare claim
enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin Carlson
legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
people wouldn't dare go public.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:03 AM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't dare
 claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
 Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but those
 people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 
 Is Fred in MUM's good graces, (still on the reservation, on the
 program, studying or supported under the MUM umbrella, etc. ?

Totally.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

2006-03-01 Thread Peter



--- jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
   contrary.  What I've observed has been a
   tendency to be deferential to those who
   claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
  
  In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM,
 people don't 
 dare claim
  enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears
 created by the Robin 
 Carlson
  legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly
 studying people, but 
 those
  people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the
 Robin Carlson 
 legacy. Thanks

Now that was a fun and crazy time at MIU and the
greater community.




 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..



On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:16 AM, markmeredith2002 wrote:Personally I'm wary of anyone making E claims and prefer orgs that don't even use the word.  IMO, energywise, "being enlightened" is just the new age-eastern version of "being saved by Jesus". I loved this! Yes, you've described the conversion experience also present in some satsang cultures.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:02 AM, jim_flanegin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 on 3/1/06 9:06 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 FWIW, I've never encountered it in TM, to the
 contrary.  What I've observed has been a
 tendency to be deferential to those who
 claimed or were rumored to be enlightened.
 
 In certain quarters of Fairfield, especially MUM, people don't
 dare claim
 enlightenment publicly. Probably due to fears created by the Robin
 Carlson
 legacy. However, Fred Travis has been quietly studying people, but
 those
 people wouldn't dare go public.
 
 Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on the Robin Carlson
 legacy. Thanks

It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25
years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was
enlightened, set himself up as a World Teacher, and attracted a lot of
converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. This made a lot of
people around here very leery about anyone who proclaims their
enlightenment. The attitude seems to be that real enlightenment is a very
lofty goal that ordinary chumps like us are very unlikely to have attained,
and that shouldn't be considered genuine unless Maharishi confirms it, which
he never does, and that if you've got something good going on, you should
keep it to yourself or let Fred Travis study you privately.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up forrealization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring upthe possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsangculture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it doessound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

on 3/1/06 10:23 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:

And sad. A collective cheer should go up for
realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.

I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up
the possibility
that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang
culture is actually
Spiritual Codependence?

Never mind then!

Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does
sound interesting.

My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed.

All thats a bit much for my simple brain. All I can say is that I get high as a kite in those meetings, and the effect is cumulative. Ive seen a number of people undergo dramatic, life-changing, and apparently permanent shifts. Exactly what state theyre shifting to, and exactly what state the already-shifted ones are in, who can say? But something good is happening.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Rick Archer wrote: jim_flanegin wrote: Just curious Rick if you would elaborate on "the Robin Carlson legacy". Thanks It's quite a story, and I don't have time to tell it at length, but about 25 years ago Canadian Governor Robin Carlson proclaimed that he was enlightened, set himself up as a "World Teacher," and attracted a lot of converts from the movement, especially in Fairfield. Suzanne Segal wrote about Robin Carlson (though she gave him a different name) in her book, "Collision with the Infinite." As I recall, he doesn't come across looking too good. In the 80's, I was invited by three close friends--an old TM teacher, an MIU grad and a Sidha, to confront Robin Woodsworth Carlsen who was then living in an apartment in Washington DC. It was actually my first time at debunking a claim of enlightenment, but when it was all over and done, we were all convinced this man was without a doubt, a fraud.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..



I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more  "neoadvaita" kind of gathering.On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:50 AM, feste37 wrote:Very nice post. Satsang as a way of weaving ever more subtle self-delusions.   Not being much of a Satsanger, I wouldn't know for sure, but it sounds very  plausible.  





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up for realization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara. I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring up the possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsang culture is actually Spiritual Codependence? Never mind then! Say more. I don't quite get your point and it does sound interesting. My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. In order for the group to work there has to be at least one person claiming awakening/enlightenment, etc. and the idea is that the state can be transmitted, passed on or facilitated.Once it hives off onto more than one person, a dynamic unfolds where the enlightenmentee (the person who receives the recognition of their own ever-present original face/awakenment) then becomes complicit with the enlightentmenter, the transmitter of the state. The receiver, in acknowledging their own recognition, *almost by default* accepts the person who transmitted the state as also awakened. Since this is often in a group setting the process repeats, each mutually supporting the others in this "awakening" forming a web of agreement. A "gentlements agreement" is silently reached "I support your enlightenment and you support mine"--and there is almost always no argument or critical debate allowed. This is a subtle, unconscious agreement. Most do not seem aware of this subtle agreement as it is sealed by intense happiness characteristic of peak experience(s). As the group of "enlightmentees" grows, so does the potential complicit contractual agreement which is never spoken of in negative terms but instead only in positive terms: the power of the satsang to awaken others is actually the greatest gift in the world and anyone who would think otherwise would either be ostracized or never dare speak. An important point is, it doesn't matter if the if the state was genuine, just that there was some experience. That state is often "tested" in nebulous ways or not at all. In some cases there may actually be a pointing out of the nondual state. This "pointing out" is often confused with some enlightened state. Non-dual states of awareness can be pointed out *by persons who are not enlightened* but just have some people skills and good timing combined with some intuition. The quiet self-supporting consensus is that the people who are doing this are enlightened or "awakened". This seems to feed some subtle spiritual ego which is very gratifying, almost unifying to the group consciousness--albeit a group consciousness tinged with subtle unspoken attachments and bound by quiet agreement. It's as if the group has achieved an ego that is self-supporting.I wonder if a possible mechanism for this dynamic could be codependents who actually can expand their own sense of ego and weave them into/onto groups. I actually wonder a number of possibilities, but this was one of them. This diminishes and removes their own sense of codependence and passes it on to a larger structure: codependent collective consciousness.There are other issues in such a dynamic, but this is one important one IME.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..





on 3/1/06 10:57 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more  neoadvaita kind of gathering.

Were you referring to the one in Fairfield?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 12:42 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:I can certainly see from one POV how a group of awakened individuals could appear to have some silent codependent agreement with one another, driven by ego satisfaction. And how from this same POV, there is no argument and little criticism within the group because this would fracture the codependent nature of it. On the other hand, from another POV, I can see the enjoyment of a group of awakened individuals sharing perspectives on a state of ultimate freedom. With no consequences to other observers, one way or another- no $$ requested, or follow up meetings advertised... Because the same event is observed and experienced differently according to our consciousness, I cannot say that everyone should experience this group of awakened individuals in the same way.My approach was simple:-balance my own elements-relax into the natural state-just let the meeting take place as an event in my awareness.-observe what arises in both the meeting and my own awareness.Later I would just write a few brief comments in my journal. However, a couple of key points about this discussion: 1. determination of awakening, or not, of another is something sensed on a feeling level. Proclamations do no good, unless the person is walking the walk so to speak. Unfortunately it seems that the ones best able to see another's awakening are those who are awake themselves... I don't know if I would describe it necessarily that way, but as just observing what's there: things arise, hang round and then subside. Later, I could make brief observations--maybe compare/contrast: what was there, what wasn't. what was missing, etc.Eventually one gets a vague overall sense and later more concretely obvious feeling.One disconcerting thing that was obvious very soon and persisted throughout these sessions was the almost absolute infrequency with which descriptions ever strayed outside of either established TM-speak or advaito-speak. It was almost absolutely a closed loop: no freshness or newness. Although it seemed as if newness and freshness could be contrived, it was unconvincing compared to the freshness of the natural state.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/1/06 10:23 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Peter wrote:And sad. A collective cheer should go up forrealization, not a hiss. The kiss of Mara.I'm guessing this would be a bad time to bring upthe possibility that the mutual complicity inherent in satsangculture is actually Spiritual Codependence?Never mind then!Say more. I don't quite get your point and it doessound interesting.My observation of having recently (over the last year) listened in on a group of satsangers was that what I was experiencing was less a "support group for enlightenment and a possible to way receive the pointing out of own non-dual nature" but more a group which I could describe as Spiritual Codependents. Such a dynamic would probably be contingent on a large number of causes--I can only comment on the patterns I've observed. All that’s a bit much for my simple brain. All I can say is that I get high as a kite in those meetings, and the effect is cumulative. I’ve seen a number of people undergo dramatic, life-changing, and apparently permanent shifts. Exactly what state they’re shifting to, and exactly what state the already-shifted ones are in, who can say? But something good is happening. Who knows? Well at least you're having a good time.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..



On Mar 1, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 3/1/06 10:57 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I would hasten to point out that I have also experienced satsangs which were very positive and evolutionary in my mere opinion. The previous only refers to what I've experienced in a more  "neoadvaita" kind of gathering.Were you referring to the one in Fairfield? Given the very public nature of FFL, and the repercussions common here, it's probably best to keep specifics private.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness..

On Mar 1, 2006, at 3:59 PM, Marek Reavis wrote:**Comment below** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **SNIP** One disconcerting thing that was obvious very soon and persisted throughout these sessions was the almost absolute infrequency with which descriptions ever strayed outside of either established TM- speak or advaito-speak. It was almost absolutely a closed loop: no freshness or newness. Although it seemed as if newness and freshness could be contrived, it was unconvincing compared to the freshness of the natural state. **END** In the mid- late-70's my (then) spouse and I led several ATR courses, both at MIU and also at the Soboba Hot Springs Academy near Hemet/San Jacinto. At that time on ATRs Maharishi had course participants break up into small experience groups after lunch and discuss their experiences with each other; essentially mini-satsangs. As course leaders we were supposed to roam around and sit in on the groups for 20 minutes to a half-hour per but not necessarily participate, merely observe. It always seemed "obvious" who was truly having "experiences" because they virtually always reported that they "finally understood" what Maharishi was talking about (regarding some particular feature of enlightenment, or the teaching, etc.) but then they would go on to describe their experiences in a totally unique (and convincing) fashion, oftentimes they were really wonderful expressions of the truth that (for me, at least) really illuminated something in a way that I had not heard before. Others, however, generally parroted the language of Maharishi or occassionally other saints, or lifted things from the Gita but never seemed convincing. I'm not sure which satsang group Vaj is referring to in his post but his last paragraph (above) reminded me of these earlier experiences with a similar or identical dynamic. While it definitely was not the ATR courses you describe, you are describing the precise same thing.In the specific satsang I was referring to, another rather upsetting but telltale "flag" was when one of the "awakened" (actually he was claiming to be in Unity, Brahmi chetana) tried to explain the experience of Unity using the two truths (the relative and the absolute) which is actually the experiential View (darshana) of turiyatita, CC. And he spoke it so convincingly to the gentleman he talked to, so smooth, I just gasped when I heard this. Now I understand there is relative Jnana and absolute Jnana. But if you don't what heck you're talking about, it's best just to keep the mouth shut. The poor guy he was talking to believed he was talking to an elder friend and brother who was *enlightened*. He *trusted* him.The whole experience was rather upsetting--it makes me very leery of these things.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:39 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:  on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where MMY talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE birth, but this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.  And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy and  all that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric books.   Which is what Vaj and company think MMY has done, except they also say  that he's uneducated in the "real" ways of spirituality, etc. I've never claimed M. regurgitated what he read in esoteric books.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:53 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mar 1, 2006, at 5:39 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer fairfieldlife@ wrote: on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where MMY talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE birth, but this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting. BillyG. And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy and all that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric books. Which is what Vaj and company think MMY has done, except they also say that he's uneducated in the "real" ways of spirituality, etc. I've never claimed M. regurgitated what he read in esoteric books. OR what he was "coached" to say. You like being literalist, don't you? I could care less either way.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:08 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The true definition of "Cosmic Consciousness" is samadhi 24/7/365 -- so what does that tell you about their promises about enlightenment? That they were overly optimistic. duh Remember that this hadn't been *done* before. How could they know for sure? MMY shouldn't have made such a prediction for that reason, but it was his best guess at the time. You know, of course, that your "true" definition of Cosmic Consciousness is the same as MMY's. Except that you define "samadhi" differently than he does. He doesn't mean the kind of samadhi where you sit insensible and useless with your eyes closed. He means samadhi *along with waking consciousness*, 24/7/365 samadhi in activity (and sleep and dreaming consciousness), the *integration* of samadhi with the three "lesser" states. As do I, but in this case am highlighting that *inner* absorption at this level of realization which has some remarkable attributes--namely total focus to the exclusion of sensory inputs. That's why I mentioned this would have to be done *while in meditation or doing a focused activity*.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:27 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:We've had a half-dozen contributors to this list  who profess to be functioning from Brahman.  I've read that the larger Fairfield community has  a dozen or so who've awakened. MUM says it's  doing research on a dozen or so people in CC.  I get the impression that "seven lifetimes" stuff may apply to some of us, but it's likely an old rule that no longer applies. Get'em to meditate like the previous example.I'll gladly donate the nail.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 9:56 AM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Feb 28, 2006, at 8:27 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:  We've had a half-dozen contributors to this list who profess to be functioning from Brahman. I've read that the larger Fairfield community has a dozen or so who've awakened. MUM says it's doing research on a dozen or so people in CC. I get the impression that "seven lifetimes" stuff may apply to some of us, but it's likely an old rule that no longer applies.  Get'em to meditate like the previous example.  I'll gladly donate the nail.  Perhaps Vaj, that is why you and I live on opposite sides of the  country...;) There's always the comfy chair. :-)





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 10:44 AM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 28, 2006, at 9:52 AM, Rick Archer wrote: on 2/27/06 6:41 PM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is the most realistic estimate any TM'er (Charlie Lutes) ever gave to how long it would take to *start* functioning from the *home* of all the laws of nature!! Even MMY himself said it would take a million years to reach CC (at Fuiggi) unless you go to courses. To suggest a few thousand *rice converts* could be recruited, given a mantra and some good thoughts to think along with it, could create world peace is wishful thinking to say the least! Very few TM'ers have even *fully* transended *once* much less even function from that subtle level. When I mean transcend, I mean transcend...TO SAMADHI! (Look it up in the book) I beg to differ. I think that there are dozens in Fairfield in CC and beyond. Or who think they are. It's a powerful thought, esp. if you've been thinking about it for years and years. Many who self-validate confuse awakening with enlightenment IMO. Pointing-out is not enlightenment. The unfortunate thing is those who make the error of confusing awareness with enlightenment often end up dying as normal people, it's rather common. The puzzling thing in listening to these people talk is they often present with false Views of reality--and no I don't mean the paradox of Brahman. Nagarjuna would have a hay day. Have any ever demonstrated siddhi or been validated formally? You are all those of whom you speak. Why the roadblocks? Am I? Perhaps just traffic stuck on the enlightenment ego. This type of thing will continue to be common. Been there, done that, got the klesha.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

on 2/28/06 12:08 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snip
 The true definition of Cosmic Consciousness is samadhi 24/7/365 --
 so what does that tell you about their promises about enlightenment?
 
 That they were overly optimistic.  duh
 
 Remember that this hadn't been *done* before.  How
 could they know for sure?  MMY shouldn't have made
 such a prediction for that reason, but it was his
 best guess at the time.

I know people who made it in under the 5-8 years. Others who thought they
had made it but later realized they hadn't. Others who haven't made it after
3-4 decades. Others who probably have made it but don't realize they have.
Maharishi once said that if a man is in a desert, you tell him water is over
the next horizon. You don't tell him it's 100 miles away, or he'll lose
heart. (Of course, he may be encouraged but end up dying of thirst.)




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 11:03 AM, jim_flanegin wrote:Am I?  Yes, it is you who are self-defining the reality to which you are  reacting. Hence, it is all you.Because there is gold there is also fools gold--if they are all one, then fine. I'll take the gold you take the fool's gold. Don't worry, itsallyou.  Perhaps just traffic stuck on the enlightenment ego. This type   of thing will continue to be common.  Why common?Why not?  Been there, done that, got the   klesha. Oh, like a foul tasing jelly bean? What do you do with them? No, like amrita.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

on 2/28/06 10:19 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I see you are doing the same thing, that is, stating the 'party'
 line, do you think we could go beyond that and talk as grown-up
 adults. I mean, I can take it, you know...7 lifetimes, OK! 700 years
 which is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. I doubt you know that
 many who have reached CC, anyway, only if you, yourself were
 enlightened would you be able to tell! ARE YOUenlightened?

No. But I'm pretty sure I know people who are. And who's to say this isn't
their 7th lifetime, or whatever?




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 YOu would be correct if you were talking about the Gita where MMY
 talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that is death to
 materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back being ONE birth, but
 this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.

And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking about? Nice guy and all
that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read in esoteric books.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:33 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer fairfieldlife@ wrote:  And who's to say this isn't their 7th lifetime, or whatever?  That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long.  Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker'  identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and  that, and the other thing...  What if they didn't fall for the 'intertia of the seeker' lie?I love that story though!





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...





on 2/28/06 11:40 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' 
 

identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and 
 

that, and the other thing... 
 

What if they didn't fall for the 'intertia of the seeker' lie?

I love that story though!

CC = Carrot Consciousness






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

2006-02-28 Thread Peter



--- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 2/28/06 10:32 AM, wmurphy77 at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  YOu would be correct if you were talking about the
 Gita where MMY
  talks about many 'births' to realize Being, that
 is death to
  materiality and Resurrection in Spirit and back
 being ONE birth, but
  this is NOT what Charlie was suggesting.  BillyG.
 
 And who's to say Charlie knew what he was talking
 about? Nice guy and all
 that, but anyone can regurgitate what they've read
 in esoteric books.

Yes, many of us took Charlie as a fount of absolute
knowledge. Not quite so. 



 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:10 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long. Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing... Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened, we should just accept it without question? If I say I have brown hair, why is that so much easier to accept, than if I say I am enlightened? Nice analogy. I get a sense of brown either way! Dude, I'm in Brahman!

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:08 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:33 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote:   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer  fairfieldlife@ wrote:   And who's to say this isn't their 7th lifetime, or whatever?   That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are  hanging around already too long.   Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of  this, and that, and the other thing...  What if they didn't fall for the 'intertia of the seeker' lie?  What if they didn't believe water was wet? Maybe they were in touch with the presence from which the senses arise and it was just nerve endings complaining?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:48 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long. Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing... Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairlyuniversal trend in spiritual groups. Those who saythat they have experienced the goal that is sharedby pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those inthe group who have not had such an experience.One would think they'd be happy that someone isactually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened,we should just accept it without question? Or what if you were familiar with the state people were describing/conveying/satsanging and knew it as "other than" the big E?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:18 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:10 PM, jim_flanegin wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" jstein@ wrote:   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@  wrote:   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  jflanegi@ wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@  wrote:   That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long.   Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing...   Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite.   In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened, we should just accept it without question?   If I say I have brown hair, why is that so much easier to accept, than if I say I am enlightened?  Nice analogy. I get a sense of brown either way! Dude, I'm in  Brahman!  Oh c'mon Vaj- no one ever *really* gets enlightened, EVER, except  select Great Buddhist Masters...you are deluding yourself.  Any 'commoner' who claims such a thing is obviously just on an ego  trip. Wake up! Oh ok, if you say so. But what about the Great Buddhist Masters who aren't enlightened?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 1:40 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:48 PM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long. Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing... Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened, we should just accept it without question? Or what if you were familiar with the state people were describing/ conveying/satsanging and knew it as "other than" the big E? Not what Barry stipulated; read it again, please. Then see if you can figure out what point I'm making with my question. I already understood your response, thank you.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...

On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:48 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity no_reply@ wrote: That's it. That was also Papaji's point stating too many are hanging around already too long. Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing... Gotta agree. And it ain't just here...it's a fairly universal trend in spiritual groups. Those who say that they have experienced the goal that is shared by pretty much the entire group (for example, enlightenment) are regularly dissed by those in the group who have not had such an experience. One would think they'd be happy that someone is actually getting what they paid for, but the reality is sadly often the opposite. In other words, when someone claims to be enlightened, we should just accept it without question? Or what if you were familiar with the state people were describing/conveying/satsanging and knew it as "other than" the big E?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...



On Feb 28, 2006, at 12:56 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 2/28/06 11:40 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, many would rather wallow in the inertia of their 'seeker' identity, proclaiming enlightenment can't be so, because of this, and that, and the other thing... What if they didn't fall for the 'intertia of the seeker' lie?I love that story though!CC = Carrot Consciousness Sweet!





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 7 lifetimes to reach Cosmic Consciousness...