Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
All this enlightenment stuff is sick. The last person who is enlightened is the person walking around thinking they're enlightened. Such enlightenment does not exist. As the message below from Babaji Robert showed, when you 'think' you're enlightened life will prove otherwise. Since there is no way to be enlightened at all times, it is better to become skillful at nonenlightenment. Enlightenment which stops thinking of itself is also enlightenment. Thus 'he who laughs last laughs loudest.' - Original Message - From: Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 2:02 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: MMY's own meta-explanation for why he even bothers to present a theory is because the intellect has a need to explain things, that's all. One could also explain it as, In the absence of the promised results (5-7 years to enlightenment), giving people theory after theory to hang onto keeps them from paying too much attention to all the broken promises. :-) Heh. Within a few weeks of learning TM I was having enlightenment experiences. Had I a more structured religious tradition, I might not have indulged in all the interesting side- trips I did when I was young, but on the other hand, had my father not gone off with the obvious (in hindsight) intent of killing himself by exposure on a fishing trip, I might have had less stress in my life and wouldn't have indulged in self- destructive behavior myself. Either way, for ME, enlightenment was obviously occuring within a few weeks and months of my starting TM. Witnessing sleep, dreaming and so on was starting to occur, etc. However, during the week that my Mother drove off to retrieve my Father from the hospital he'd been taken to when hikers discovered him in his drunken stupor that he'd imposed on himself many miles from civilization, which lead to a week's exposure to the elements, I managed to contract a case of mono that nearly killed me. Between the stress of recovering from mono (epstein-barr syndrome seemed a likely explanation for how weak I was ever-after), and the stress of watching my father kill himself by milimeters after his failed attempt to kill himself by inches, I pretty much lost any symptoms of CC for decades. I Continued TM, however, since there was an obvious feeling of not-quite-as-bad afterwards. My point is simply: you have no idea why people didn't get to enlightenment in 5-7 years. I've met high school kids from MSAE who appear to be durned close themselves, and I've heard of others from MSAE who went off the deep end. For some reason. MMY probably DID expect people to get enlightened faster than they did. This makes his time-line mistaken, but while SOME people got upset at the Perfect Master not being correct to the month, others simply slogged ahead, getting whatever benefits we got... ...and we didn't need an explanation to excuse our decision to continue. Thanks for the above; Just to add to this a bit, I would think that these days, people would have the possibility of gaining enlightenment much faster... As more and more long term meditators, baby-boomer generation, added to the ever increasing desire for authenticity of the younger generation; Enlightenment should become a much more natural thing, understood, much more than was possible, only a few years ago. R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
Even though it is present at every moment, if you just LET GO. As I said before, perfectly seriously, the whole thing is really kinda funny once you get past self and learn to laugh at it. Good luck with that, y'hear. One of the best things about Buddhism that you find in lots of practitioners is that they let go alot easier than the people of other religions. Thus they are instantly more open which can be off-putting for us close or shy types. Nonetheless, this comes from the forsaking of future liberations for present alertness. Thus enlightenments will take care of themselves, it's the times of no enlightenment that are most difficult. And for that, one learns to accept their own ignorance as a basic aspect of themself which will never cease to exist. Actually this liberation and enlightenment and ignorance all exist at once if you know how to look. And they will not change just because someone has thoughts of enlightenment, or because they have sidhis. This ability to let go, relax, and be in the present is always going to be the greatest of abilities.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 3:16 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip You really *do* see the fact that we have different ideas than you have -- an expressing them -- as somehow abusing you. I kinda doubt that's what Lawson thinks of as abuse. I rather suspect he's referring to the abuse you and Vaj regularly dish out to TMers. You'll never get this, but for the record, saying that most TMers know very little about other spiritual traditions and not much more about their own is not abuse. It's a statement of fact. Amen. Furthermore, in general, TMers don't really know the undiluted truth of their own tradition. Perhaps we should call it the Ostrich Effect? As I've said before, they're also probably the most attached to the *idea* or *mental constructs* on enlightenment than any group I know or've come across.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 6:47 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Some people had a huge amount of attachment to this idea. Some came out of the woodwork to hurl insults or to defend TM. Interestingly some of the most knowledgeable people on the list simply said nothing. Not knowing whether I am remotely knowledgeable or not, but knowing that I didn't bother to weigh in on this experiment at the time, I'll do so now. :-) I agree with you that TM, and *most* other methods of meditation are dualistic. One of the most interesting reactions I heard (repeatedly) was that I was presenting or claiming that some (unnamed) Buddhist technique, which I supposedly practiced--despite the fact I've never claimed to practice any such technique, nor had I ever claimed to a Buddhist! As I was telling Tom T. offlist the other day, my knowledge of this fact was actually from a visit I made back in the 80's to one of the peeths of the Holy Shankaracharya Order. A pundit and yogin of that order kindly asked what my path was, and I naively replied Adavaita Vedanta. He was delighted to hear this and asked who my teachers were and I replied that it was MMY and from SBS. He seemed puzzled by this and I then explained that I practiced TM. He found that funny. He explained, in some detail then that TM was actually a dualistic approach from tantra and was definitely not Advaita. It was very clear at the time that he was simply speaking the plain truth. As I later heard this also from another Patanjali and Shankaracharya pundit, it's clear this is common knowledge.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 5:55 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: Again, for the record, but not assuming for even a moment that it'll do any good, what you refer to above as abuse I regularly dish out to TMers is your attempt to negatively propagandize what I say. Here's how it really goes -- I make some criticism of YOU (Judy Stein) or LAWSON (sparaig), based on YOUR specific actions, and you character- ize that as me dumping on TMers. It isn't. It's me dumping on YOU. I find *neither* of you terribly representative of TMers, although you both exhibit traits that I *would* associate with most TMers. On the whole, *MOST* of the strong, dedicated TMers I have encountered here on FFL exhibit either none or very little of the anger, arrogance, elitism and close-mindedness that I sometimes complain of in you and Lawson. Clear now? I doubt it. The same thing just repeats itself over and over and over again. They obviously feel *very* threatened, but then that's not really our fault now, is it?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 12:35 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: On the one side of it you're just an Ordinary Joe with an OPINION. On the other side (the one you're on currently), you're a fanatic. Let's go a step further, and admit that all you have said is neither incorrect nor correct, and all that Vaj has stated is neither incorrect or correct, and that it is ALL opinion. Even the socalled traditions hold merely opinions. That to say TM is a false path is opinion. That to say it is a valid path is opinion. My opinion remains that Tibetan Buddhism is at least a failed tradition. Now THAT I can live with. Can you? Sure. I wouldn't fall for it so easily B. The current situation was predicted not only centuries ago, but also decades before the current invasion. The on-coming invasion was reiterated in the early 1900's, but the Tibetans, realizing it would raise their taxes, refused to amass and/or train armies to protect against the on-coming invasion. And so, the fulfillment of a prophecy came to pass in our generation: “When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people” A failure? LOL, I'd say it's been a great success, much like the dying dandelion which casts it's seeds to the four winds. It did not die--it spread like wildfire. It's sad we could not see a similar trend in Hindu dharma. Newspaper reports declare that the Vedic life style is actually vanishing, not merely being displaced and Kashmir has lost 350,000 pundit families. The last living master of their tradition, the beautiful and marvelous Trika, has died. He did pass part of this tradition on to an avaricious businessman named Mahesh Varma who begged him for it, surely he'll save this tradition? But no, not even a billionaire renunciate could save the Trika. But then perhaps the market was not right?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 2:40 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: I wouldn't fall for it so easily B. The current situation was predicted not only centuries ago, but also decades before the current invasion. The on-coming invasion was reiterated in the early 1900's, but the Tibetans, realizing it would raise their taxes, refused to amass and/or train armies to protect against the on-coming invasion. And so, the fulfillment of a prophecy came to pass in our generation: When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people A failure? LOL, I'd say it's been a great successsnip You've seen the film Kundun I take it? Great success? Hmmm... I'm sticking with my opinion that it is, and has been, a colossal failure, and I am sure many former Tibetans would agree with me. Perhaps the failure was prophesied, but that doesn't change it from being a failure. I'd say it was a failure for the Chinese since they accumulated a huge amount of negative karma. I can't say the same for the Tibetans (which of course is not to say that Tibetans are this wonderfully, karmicly pure people--they're just people after all). Applying your same reasoning say to Nazi Germany, the Jews were a great failure and the Germans a great success. Similarly the Native American tribes of North America were a great failure. I'm sorry Jim, but I don't know that I could ever see genocide as a success and the victims as failures.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 12:35 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: On the one side of it you're just an Ordinary Joe with an OPINION. On the other side (the one you're on currently), you're a fanatic. Let's go a step further, and admit that all you have said is neither incorrect nor correct, and all that Vaj has stated is neither incorrect or correct, and that it is ALL opinion. Even the socalled traditions hold merely opinions. That to say TM is a false path is opinion. That to say it is a valid path is opinion. My opinion remains that Tibetan Buddhism is at least a failed tradition. Now THAT I can live with. Can you? Sure. I wouldn't fall for it so easily B. The current situation was predicted not only centuries ago, but also decades before the current invasion. The on-coming invasion was reiterated in the early 1900's, but the Tibetans, realizing it would raise their taxes, refused to amass and/or train armies to protect against the on-coming invasion. And so, the fulfillment of a prophecy came to pass in our generation: “When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people” A failure? LOL, I'd say it's been a great success, much like the dying dandelion which casts it's seeds to the four winds. It did not die--it spread like wildfire. It's sad we could not see a similar trend in Hindu dharma. Newspaper reports declare that the Vedic life style is actually vanishing, not merely being displaced and Kashmir has lost 350,000 pundit families. The last living master of their tradition, the beautiful and marvelous Trika, has died. He did pass part of this tradition on to an avaricious businessman named Mahesh Varma who begged him for it, surely he'll save this tradition? But no, not even a billionaire renunciate could save the Trika. But then perhaps the market was not right?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 4:13 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: I wouldn't fall for it so easily B. The current situation was predicted not only centuries ago, but also decades before the current invasion. The on-coming invasion was reiterated in the early 1900's, but the Tibetans, realizing it would raise their taxes, refused to amass and/or train armies to protect against the on-coming invasion. And so, the fulfillment of a prophecy came to pass in our generation: When the iron bird flies, and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered like ants across the world, and the Dharma will come to the land of the red faced people A failure? LOL, I'd say it's been a great success, much like the dying dandelion which casts it's seeds to the four winds. It did not die--it spread like wildfire. Actually, it didn't. There are about two million adherents to Buddhism in the US, so we can conclude that just a small fraction of those are Tibetan Buddhists. Actually it did. Just a century ago there were few Tibetan Buddhists in any western country, that number has greatly increased since the Tibetan diaspora. From 1990 to 2001, Buddhism grew 170% in the US alone! I heard around 6 million Buddhists is the US and that was a few years ago. The western country with the greatest percentage of Buddhists is the US with 1.6 percent. That's the greatest percentage(!), followed by France with 1.15 percent, then quickly dropping to Australia and Russia with .8 and .7 percent, respectively. I don't think that's correct Jim. My guess would be Kalmykia which is around 50% Buddhist--even after the massive deportations and persecution. Amazing! That's some wildfire, Vaj. Yeah I know, from nothing, to millions worldwide and for such an advanced practice is indeed very unusual. Compare to something roughly similar in terms of spiritual technology--Hindu mantrayana-- and you'll find much, much less, maybe thousands. But keep in mind, this is not TM, it's not all about quantity, it's more about quality. Think of Tibetan Buddhism as a kind of spiritual olympics and maybe you'll have a clearer idea. And it's clearly thriving, unlike the Hindu Trika which has been largely destroyed. As you know the Trika is related to TM and early TMer's even visited Kashmir with M. Since then there was a major migration out of Kashmir and it's largely been replaced by the Kali Yuga religion, Islam, which is spreading all across north India.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 11, 2006, at 5:30 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It did not die--it spread like wildfire. On Dec 11, 2006, at 4:13 PM, jim_flanegin wrote: Actually, it didn't. There are about two million adherents to Buddhism in the US, so we can conclude that just a small fraction of those are Tibetan Buddhists. Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually it did. Just a century ago there were few Tibetan Buddhists in any western country, that number has greatly increased since the Tibetan diaspora. From 1990 to 2001, Buddhism grew 170% in the US alone! I heard around 6 million Buddhists is the US and that was a few years ago. This is where I got my numbers from: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/4/baum2.html Mine were from a recent National Geographic article. The largest growth has been in the last ten years, so I suspect most estimates will miss a growth spurt that recent. The western country with the greatest percentage of Buddhists is the US with 1.6 percent. That's the greatest percentage(!), followed by France with 1.15 percent, then quickly dropping to Australia and Russia with .8 and .7 percent, respectively. I don't think that's correct Jim. My guess would be Kalmykia which is around 50% Buddhist--even after the massive deportations and persecution. Amazing! There's 300,000 people in Kalmykia, that's less than Las Vegas!- Hardly representative of a western country with a large percentage of Buddhists! Indeed it is small. But it is nonetheless a western Buddhist nation. Despite years of megalomaniacal hunger for world domination, I don't think even Mahesh can claim that. Unless you consider around 2000 in Iowa (less if you subtract the Indian outsourcers...) a country... Nonetheless I wish the hopeful Fairfielder's the best. They sure do put a lot of effort into keeping the sinking ship afloat!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 9, 2006, at 12:27 AM, qntmpkt wrote: ---Thanks, to back track a few months to Vaj's erronous and distorted notion that TM is dualist, to repeat another contributor's reply: that what's dualist or otherwise depends on the Consciousness of the aspirant, rather than the technique. It's actually not my notion, it's the tradition TM comes from's notion. In other words, this isn't something I came up with. But let's take Vaj's Guru: Norbu Rinpoche. He conducts retreats in which the Dzogchen transmission is given. Fine. This is likewise dualist since one must have the Guru right in front of you and pay money for the transmission. So how, Vaj, is this less dualist than the TM mantra? So you believe that meditation with objects is non-dual. You seem to be missing some basic understanding here. Second, Vaj apparently likes the mindfulness technique. Great, but ideally, this should be practiced in a special retreat. Again, time and money spent for the retreat. Once initiated into TM, it can be taken anywhere, any time. Can one practice mindfulness at a busy airport? No. Of course it could be practiced anywhere. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I somehow like the mindfulness technique more than say any other form of meditation. Third, another technique of Norbu's is the Dance of the Vajra: a type of dance done on a mandala with accompanying Tibetan musical instruments, and the performance of various mudras. Why is this not dualist. As far as techniques go, it's impossible (apparently) to avoid some element of dualism, since mantras, mudras, Dzogchen, etc are types of transmissions. In due time, one may transcend the vehicle, YET...continue with the practice since the transcendence of duality doesn't imply particular changes (chopping water, carrying wood). In short, Vaj's dualism argument doen't hold water. It's a piss poor analysis based on a misinterpretation of his own Guru Norbu and a complete misunderstanding of TM. Again, it's not my argument, it's basic Indian and Buddhist metaphysics. The fact that many, if not most, TMers are unaware of this certainly is not my problem. TM research even implies this dualism, as long term practitioners have been alleged to show a form of dualistic witnessing in their EEG tracings.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 9, 2006, at 4:25 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and samakhya darshanas, but expect to somehow, miraculously jump paths and Views. Yoga darshana and samkhya darshana both have the same result: turiyatita (CC). Hmm... tad-vairaagyaad api doSa-biija-kSaye *kaivalyam* and sattva-puruSayoH shuddhi-saamye *kaivalyam*... Yes, precisely: in the darshana of yoga, kaivalyam is CC (as Alistair Shearer points out in his official TMer YS translation).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
More cosmic heroin addicts? That would sum me up fairly well.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
Oh Hey Matrix, didn't know you had recognized Guru Rinpoche. All spiritual effort is towards the Great Work. Putting down other people's paths is wrong speech. TM is not different from Dzogchen. if it was that would mean Dzogchen existed somewhere or sometime. But Samanthabhadra would deny that! What is is! That's it! There is nothing else! Of course one must clear perception to what is. Perfect relaxation is the basic means. - Original Message - From: matrixmonitor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 08, 2006 9:49 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote ---On a conceptual basis, yes...Dzogchen takes place somehow beyond all progressions, and (as Vaj so astutely pointed out); doesn't involve the transmission of Shakti (unlike Muktananda's Shaktipat). But on a practical basis, (as Vaj so unastutely failed to mention); one (the aspirant) is still confronted with the problems of ingrained inertia, stress, vasanas;...etc; all of the traditional Buddhist (or otherwise) impediments to Enlightenment - such as the vices - that we may allude to as behavioral patterns connected to stress - that simply don't vanish in the blink of an eye when one attends a Dzogchen retreat. Even as pointed out by the greatest of Dzogchen Masters (Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche among them - this is Vaj's Guru); the element of TIME invariably creeps in, and although one may get it (i.e. Grok IT to a certain extent); the fact remains that unless one is 99.999% already realized, various impediments dissalow one's immediate Enlightenment even though the Dzogchen transmission is immediate. Unfortunately, most of the Buddhist Gurus (except possibly the Dalai Lama and a few others); haven't YET gotten the connection between the delay in one's hoped for immediate Enlightenment and the stark reality of time, time, time... ; and the possible cause of that delay: stress. But thanks to MMY, we new insights into the phenomenon of the progression toward Enlightenment; but at the same time, nothing is preventing people from Grok-ing the fact that they are already IT. (even though tomorrow morning and the day after, one may have to Grok this again). Contrary to what the Neo-Advaitins like HWL Poonja would have us believe, simply Groking IT for the first time may be insufficient; and likewise, simply receiving a Dzogchen transmission a single time may not get people immediately Enlightened. Like it or not, a progression of time is usually involved, due to ingrained stresses. Though MMY is not really one of my personal Gurus (I'm a devotee of Padma Sambhava), may he be praised forever for coming up with TM and the connection between progressive Realization and the concept of stress release. Praise God! But in defense of Dzogchen, one simply ditch the attitude that one is not already Pure Consciousness (and then continue with the practice of TM tomorrow and the day after, and the day after). In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, kaladevi93 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote: ---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization requires at least, time and abundant practice. Perhaps Norbu is missing an important point regarding bodily purification; and...I contend, MMY's fund of knowledge on the topic of Realization is superior to Norbu's. This is not a case of my Guru is superior to yours. Just look at the facts. You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students recently going insane? Thanks for reminding me. I'm sure Vaj might agree, he's mentioned it before here: Dzogchen begins where Unity ends. At least that's the gist of Shearer's official comments, right Vaj? Thanks for having the courage to speak the truth. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:23 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 9, 2006, at 4:25 AM, cardemaister wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: and samakhya darshanas, but expect to somehow, miraculously jump paths and Views. Yoga darshana and samkhya darshana both have the same result: turiyatita (CC). Hmm... tad-vairaagyaad api doSa-biija-kSaye *kaivalyam* and sattva-puruSayoH shuddhi-saamye *kaivalyam*... Yes, precisely: in the darshana of yoga, kaivalyam is CC (as Alistair Shearer points out in his official TMer YS translation). How's progress possible without the guNa-s? puruSaartha-shuunyaanaaM *guNaanaaM _pratiprasavaH_ kaivalyaM* svaruupa-pratiSThaa vaa citi-shakter iti. Isn't one /nirguNa-brahma(n)/ then? Gunas? Just a philosophical construct IMSO (In My Sattvic Opinion) :-).
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis TomT; It is not exactly that simple and needs to be looked at in the larger context. As Suzanne Segal said hundreds of time in her book Collision with the Infinite. We do the next obvious thing. How do we know it is the next obvious thing? Because it is what we find our selves doing. Which strongly points to the fact that we are not the doer in the subtle sense. We do what we do until we do it differently. Those who do the movement thing are those who's doership is orientated that way. Those who do many things like you and me, do have different doership paths. We find our clarity by doing the next obvious thing. To suggest that we are really aware of what that next obvious thing is before we do it is the mistake of the intellect. There is no right or wrong for anyone on the path., Whatever path you are on is the next obvious thing for you. Whatever path someone else is on is the next obvious thing for them. Rather than insist that we need to shift our paths for some other path we might find that all paths are the next obvious thing for someone and to honor that path as perfect for them. It may not be the same for you, me or anyone else, but it is for them. In honoring the next obvious thing for them is to honor our own convoluted path as perfect and was the next obvious thing for us. In honoring any path as perfect for someone, we are honoring the entire creation as the ultimate path. Well said. This is something I bring up with people with good intellects in therapy who bemoan some previous decision they made an speak as if they had some sort of choice back then to make another decision. I point out that in this present moment that they are not making a choice that is wrong. In this moment it is the most obvious and appropriate choice to make. It may turnout to to be wrong in hindsight, but never in the moment it is made. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: llundrub wrote: TM is not different from Dzogchen. So, you're saying that Dzogchen is non-different from TM. When one past thought has ceased and a future thought has not yet arisen, in that gap, in between, there's a conciousness of the present moment; fresh, unaltered by even a hair's breadth of concept, a luminous, naked awareness. That is what Rigpa is, according to Sogyal! 'TM, Dzogchen, and staying in the View' http://tinyurl.com/yd4urd However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does not give rise to pure consciousness because of the foundational projection/identification of consciousness with chitta. Cessation of thought/vrittis in chitta while identification is still present is a laya and not samadhi. I believe many of the decades long meditators are stuck in a laya when they meditate. They experience peace and, bliss, but it rarely moves into pure consciousness. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 9, 2006, at 2:07 PM, Peter wrote: --- Richard J. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: llundrub wrote: TM is not different from Dzogchen. So, you're saying that Dzogchen is non-different from TM. When one past thought has ceased and a future thought has not yet arisen, in that gap, in between, there's a conciousness of the present moment; fresh, unaltered by even a hair's breadth of concept, a luminous, naked awareness. That is what Rigpa is, according to Sogyal! 'TM, Dzogchen, and staying in the View' http://tinyurl.com/yd4urd However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does not give rise to pure consciousness because of the foundational projection/identification of consciousness with chitta. Cessation of thought/vrittis in chitta while identification is still present is a laya and not samadhi. I believe many of the decades long meditators are stuck in a laya when they meditate. They experience peace and, bliss, but it rarely moves into pure consciousness. Wow, thanks for saying this. I couldn't agree more.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
As mentioned before; as the success of the Invincible America grows stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his language more foul. ---What kind of ludicrous statement is this?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: However for many simply the cessation of thoughts does not give rise to pure consciousness because of the foundational projection/identification of consciousness with chitta. Cessation of thought/vrittis in chitta while identification is still present is a laya and not samadhi. I believe many of the decades long meditators are stuck in a laya when they meditate. They experience peace and, bliss, but it rarely moves into pure consciousness. Well said. That's *exactly* why I suggested that having been given a strong intellectual framework that appeals to the normal (that is, unenlightened) waking state can actually be an *obstacle* to the appreciation of enlightenment when it dawns. *During* the experience, however long or fleeting it may be, it can be an actual experience of samadhi, because while it is going on, the intellect is not at home. But *immediately* afterwards the intellect logs back on and tries to superimpose its programmed intellectual understanding of what samadhi is onto the experience, most often with disastrous results. Or not. The result is often finding some way to deny that the experience took place, or that it was actually samadhi. Or not. What it usually took for a long-term TMer to recognize that samadhi was taking place was for it to last for an extended period of time -- say ten to twenty minutes. After such an experience, it was difficult for even the most conditioned intellect to impose its preconceptions on the experience. snip The thing that's fascinating to me is that it's pretty easy (at least for me) to tell which of the participants in this particular discussion have actually *been* to the moon and thus are speaking in their own chosen language around an experience that was actually an experience for them personally, and those who have *never* been there and are only mouthing what they've been told. Pretty interesting that that difference can come through, even on the Internet. Or not. snicker Minus the snicker it seems that you're doing a perfect Jaimani imitation. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- llundrub [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As mentioned before; as the success of the Invincible America grows stronger, Vaj is getting more desperate and his language more foul. ---What kind of ludicrous statement is this? Perhaps Maitraya got up on the wrong side of the bed or something. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
People make a mistake when they view advaitin teachings as presenting conceptual models of Realization for a waking state intellect. For the waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as you and others have pointed out. It doesn't mean what they say is false or wrong, its just that they are meant to be applied in two ways: as a tool for transcendence or as a conceptual understanding of a direct experience that you are having. Contrast this with MMY's teaching which presents a conceptual model of Realization for a waking state intellect. The waking state mind has something to chew on, as it were, and functions as a belief system to motivate the seeker to continue doing sadhana. The real value is in the sadhana, day in and day out, doing the program, not in the conceptual model. But once Realization occurs, the wakingstate model doesn't fit anymore. It is recognized as a useful fiction for waking state sadhana. Only in Realization do the advaitin teachings make any conceptual sense. Prior to Realization they appear to deny the rather clear experience of the space-time reality of waking state. --- hyperbolicgeometry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Nisargadata Maharaj is one of those Neo-Advaitin Nihilists who states that he's Pure Consciousness, but refuses to acknowledge his existence in the relative world. (these teachings are inconsistent with what MMY says...since Brahman has two aspects in One, not one aspect in One.). Thanks anyway for the quote...a good illustration of a 100% teaching, as opposed to MMY's 200%. Buddhism, BTW on the whole; has a pure Consciousness only school; but on the whole (C.f. the statements of the Dalai Lama) is more down to earth than Nis.'s pie in the sky Nihilism. By looking tirelessly, I became quite empty and with that emptiness all came back to me except the mind. I find I have lost the mind irretrievably. I am neither conscious nor unconscious, I am beyond the mind and its various states and conditions. Distinctions are created by the mind and apply to the mind only. I am pure Consciousness itself, unbroken awareness of all that is. I am in a more real state than yours. I am undistracted by the distinctions and separations which constitute a person. As long as the body lasts, it has its needs like any other, but my mental process has come to an end. My thinking, like my digestion, is unconscious and purposeful. I am not a person in your sense of the word, though I may appear a person to you. I am that infinite ocean of consciousness in which all happens. I am also beyond all existence and cognition, pure bliss of being. There is nothing I feel separate from, hence I am all. No thing is me, so I am nothing. Life will escape, the body will die, but it will not affect me in the least. Beyond space and time I am, uncaused, uncausing, yet the very matrix of existence. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: People make a mistake when they view advaitin teachings as presenting conceptual models of Realization for a waking state intellect. For the waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as you and others have pointed out. It doesn't mean what they say is false or wrong, its just that they are meant to be applied in two ways: as a tool for transcendence or as a conceptual understanding of a direct experience that you are having. Contrast this with MMY's teaching which presents a conceptual model of Realization for a waking state intellect. The waking state mind has something to chew on... I would add, and to cling to, as a mechanism for keeping the actual experience of realization away... And some waking-state minds cling to this notion about other waking-state minds, fervently believing (hoping?) that these other minds chew on the conceptual model in order to keep the actual experience of realization away, when in fact chewing on and clinging to aren't necessarily always joined at the hip (especially when one has the regular experience of transcending). snip Yep, important distinction to make- that with the regular experience of transcending, that clinging will eventually give way. Or there is no clinging to begin with, just chewing. With repeated transcending, you can't get enough of a grip on the conceptual model to cling to it. Nor does chewing get in the way; rather, it helps dissolve the model bit by bit as it's constantly being modified by experience. The more you chew, the more the model turns into a mush, and the more you have to just swallow and be done with it. Chewing is a terrific metaphor for the process! Another aspect of this is that in contemplating the conceptual model in any depth, paradoxically, logic *itself* tells you why it's the wrong tool for the job. That's a very liberating recognition that actually brings the model within a hair's- breadth of the experience, to where you can just step smoothly right over the gap. (Especially, again, if you've been transcending regularly, so you aren't stepping into unfamiliar territory, as it were.) I like where you ran with this post, Judy! I agree. That would be using the model as part of a sadhana, a tool to bring, as MMY would say, the point value to the infinite value. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 8, 2006, at 4:54 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: Yup. And that of dozens of my friends and hundreds of people within the traditions I have studied. They have actually *had* the experience of realization, unlike some traditions that can only talk about it in theory and come up with excuses for why *their* students *don't* have the experience itself. Your nervous system isn't pure enough yet. You need to 'purify.' Just keep paying us the money we ask for and keep coming to these courses. Someday you'll be pure enough to experience what you already are. Yeah, right. A turning in the seat of consciousness doesn't depend on a purification of a nervous system or certain brain wave styles or even a transcending mind. It's like Nike says Just do it. No doer required. Ego still optional. May not be available in some areas, but is present everywhere, at all times. ;-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote: ---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization requires at least, time and abundant practice. Perhaps Norbu is missing an important point regarding bodily purification; and...I contend, MMY's fund of knowledge on the topic of Realization is superior to Norbu's. This is not a case of my Guru is superior to yours. Just look at the facts. You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students recently going insane? Thanks for reminding me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: People make a mistake when they view advaitin teachings as presenting conceptual models of Realization for a waking state intellect. For the waking state intellect they are obviously lacking as you and others have pointed out. It doesn't mean what they say is false or wrong, its just that they are meant to be applied in two ways: as a tool for transcendence or as a conceptual understanding of a direct experience that you are having. Contrast this with MMY's teaching which presents a conceptual model of Realization for a waking state intellect. The waking state mind has something to chew on... I would add, and to cling to, as a mechanism for keeping the actual experience of realization away... But in MMY's model, CC, at least, is inevitable. It is merely a product of a transition in how the brain works. I don't see CC as a product of brain functioning. Brain functioning is reflected in the functioning of mind and vice versa. Consciousness realizing its own unlocalized nature will profoundly effect brain functioning but not the other way around. In MMY's model, all the intellectual theory is meant to do is provide a comfortable interpretation of this transition to alleviate the discomfort that might arise from intellectual confusion. MMY's model is great for a waking state understanding of Realization. After Realization the knowledge to understand what is happening is there, but it is not conceptualized as it was in waking state prior to Realization. Many, if not all, of the waking state assumptions regarding Realization and many other things are radically alter after Realization. There is not a continuum of S/self from waking state into CC. That is an assumption of the waking state intellect because it doesn't have a friggin' clue what will happen in Realization. How can it? It only knows waking state. There is a radical change in conceptual understanding of Realization from waking state to the intellect functioning in Realization. Realization can not be conceived in waking state, but the waking state intellect doesn't know that. ...as it were, and functions as a belief system to motivate the seeker to continue doing sadhana. The real value is in the sadhana, day in and day out, doing the program, not in the conceptual model. But once Realization occurs, the wakingstate model doesn't fit anymore. It is recognized as a useful fiction for waking state sadhana. Only in Realization do the advaitin teachings make any conceptual sense. Prior to Realization they appear to deny the rather clear experience of the space-time reality of waking state. Well said. In general, those who don't get the advaita approach have not had the direct experience of realization. For those who have, they make sense. You're acquainted with numerous people who have had the direct experience of realization, and are able to generalize this way based on experience, or are you speaking of what your own tradition says, or are you merely making things up because it fits with your own expectations? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 8, 2006, at 9:27 PM, nablusos108 wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:41 PM, yhvhworld wrote: ---Vaj, but this is the initial stage, ...even from the POV of your Guru, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, complete, continuous realization requires at least, time and abundant practice. Perhaps Norbu is missing an important point regarding bodily purification; and...I contend, MMY's fund of knowledge on the topic of Realization is superior to Norbu's. This is not a case of my Guru is superior to yours. Just look at the facts. You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students recently going .? Thanks for reminding me. Rather that numerous of Maharishis students now are experiencing permanent Bliss as a result of patience, dedication and longtime purification. These effects are regularily documented in the Invincible America course right now. Vaj may not like it, but it is happening. More cosmic heroin addicts? Yeah.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
--- Marek Reavis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. I totally agree. And just as an aside, I like your moniker. I don't use one now, but when I first posted here I used 'nothoughtdas'. Kind of fun to get to play with the name/form thing on a forum like this. The moniker-thing is an interesting part of it. Nisargadatta never fails to draw a response, right? Can't help but love him as a second teacher. Quite a guy. Thanks, Marek He didn't suffer fools, that's for sure! ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mathatbrahman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ---You mean the question of free will. The jury's out on this question, which we (and philosophers going back thousands of years), have gone over before. Choice may or may not really exist; but in any event, our lack of knowledge concerning the future, and karmic interactions in general, serve us a plate of alternative apparent choices, and there's currently no proof as to the nature of the realness. I realize that some Gurus - like Ramana Maharshi - say there's no free will; but why should his statement be believed; especially in view of the statements regarding karma: that karma is unfathomable - even for Sages?. Ramana is a Sage but this doesn't make him an expert in karma. There are no experts in karma, and there's no proof or even evidence for Ramana's assertion, other than the appeal to authority. (but in regard to the appeal to authorities, I wouldn't trust MMY to guide anybody in matters of economics). In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Marek Reavis reavismarek@ wrote: Comment below: ** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: **Snip** Still another way of looking at it is that it is a choice *only in retrospect*, i.e., from the perspective of realization, but not from the waking-state perspective (Knowledge is different in different states of consciousness). **End** This (above), is backwards. Realization is the extinction of even the concept of choice. It's in the so-called waking state where choice (like waking state) appears to exist. Realization is that it doesn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:22 PM, kaladevi93 wrote: You mean like one of Mahesh's beautiful and primary students recently going insane? Thanks for reminding me. I'm sure Vaj might agree, he's mentioned it before here: Dzogchen begins where Unity ends. At least that's the gist of Shearer's official comments, right Vaj? Well kinda. The basic Dzogchen transmission is the transmission of what TMers might parrot as Unity Consciousness. Shearer says that different darshanas have different states of consciousness as their goal and that Dzogchen's darshana (more precisely, it's drsti or View) is that of Unity. So, yes, it begins there. But that is only part of the story. Much of Dzogchen is beyond anything most Tm people would understand. There is a certain amount of overlap if you accept that Advaita Vedanta (as a darshana) and it's result, brahma- chetana, is similar experientially to the acquisition of the Dzogchen View. Of course TM does not lead to Buddhahood and would certainly be considered a false path on a number of grounds. Most TMers don't even comprehend that both TM and the TMSP are soundly part of the yoga and samakhya darshanas, but expect to somehow, miraculously jump paths and Views. Yoga darshana and samkhya darshana both have the same result: turiyatita (CC). What all of the TMers who claim enlightenment share in common is that they're describing vikeka- khyati, an impermanent state. And short of CC. It's extremely unpopular to point this failing out. Thanks for having the courage to speak the truth. Thank you. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Nisargadatta quote
On Dec 8, 2006, at 10:49 PM, matrixmonitor wrote: ---On a conceptual basis, yes...Dzogchen takes place somehow beyond all progressions, and (as Vaj so astutely pointed out); doesn't involve the transmission of Shakti (unlike Muktananda's Shaktipat). But on a practical basis, (as Vaj so unastutely failed to mention); one (the aspirant) is still confronted with the problems of ingrained inertia, stress, vasanas;...etc; all of the traditional Buddhist (or otherwise) impediments to Enlightenment - such as the vices - that we may allude to as behavioral patterns connected to stress - that simply don't vanish in the blink of an eye when one attends a Dzogchen retreat. Sorry this is simply wrong. You don't seem to have any idea of what Mahasandhi/Dzogchen is. One wonders if you even have that transmission. Even as pointed out by the greatest of Dzogchen Masters (Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche among them - this is Vaj's Guru); the element of TIME invariably creeps in, and although one may get it (i.e. Grok IT to a certain extent); the fact remains that unless one is 99.999% already realized, various impediments dissalow one's immediate Enlightenment even though the Dzogchen transmission is immediate. What you fail to mention is that that Dzogchen Fruit, the realization of the Body of Light, is far beyond any of the TM conceptual darshanas or the TM practical darshanas (really basic yoga darshana, CC). Unfortunately, most of the Buddhist Gurus (except possibly the Dalai Lama and a few others); haven't YET gotten the connection between the delay in one's hoped for immediate Enlightenment and the stark reality of time, time, time... ; and the possible cause of that delay: stress. But thanks to MMY, we new insights into the phenomenon of the progression toward Enlightenment; but at the same time, nothing is preventing people from Grok-ing the fact that they are already IT. (even though tomorrow morning and the day after, one may have to Grok this again). And again, this is totally incorrect. In fact the Dalai Lama, as de facto head of the Gelukpa sect, also represents the head of the Lam Rim (the Gradual Path), no? Contrary to what the Neo-Advaitins like HWL Poonja would have us believe, simply Groking IT for the first time may be insufficient; and likewise, simply receiving a Dzogchen transmission a single time may not get people immediately Enlightened. It really depends on your *definition* (more importantly the *experiential definition*) of enlightenment. Since that experiential definition is different for every darshana, the word enlightenment is only accurate if it is compared within a particular darshana. If you try to compare *across* darshanas (which is actually what you are doing), you are comparing apples to orangutans (actually much worse). Since each darshana not only possesses it's own View *and* it's own intendant logic, arguing across darshanas is a grand logical fallacy if ever there was one. Like it or not, a progression of time is usually involved, due to ingrained stresses. Though MMY is not really one of my personal Gurus (I'm a devotee of Padma Sambhava), But you are in direct contradiction to his teaching. You are presenting both a false Path and a false View. One is tempted to assume therfore that your View is false Gary. may he be praised forever for coming up with TM and the connection between progressive Realization and the concept of stress release. Praise God! But in defense of Dzogchen, one simply ditch the attitude that one is not already Pure Consciousness (and then continue with the practice of TM tomorrow and the day after, and the day after).
