Re: Luy not eating
Yesterday at one point Lucy howled and started open mouth breathing and stumbled to the garage door where there is cold air. I assumed (and still think) it was her anemia getting so bad she was not getting enough oxygen. I almost reached for valium to knock her out for euthanasia, but instead gave her a combo dex/depo shot just to see if it would help. She settled down and lay on a pillow by the garage door for hours, and we lay with her petting her, and she purred a lot and eventually ate a little bit. Last night she climbed to th top of the cat tree again at some point, and back down, and is on the couch now. She tried to eat a little baby food, but I don't think she can taste or smell due to congestion that came back with the steroids, so she only ate a little. So I syringed her, thinking once a day is not that much torture. I only pilled her once yesterday. I am just trying to keep her comfortable, and when she is not I won't let her suffer. As I am writing, she got up and went into the kitchen to drink some water. I don't want to give her immuno-regulin, Kerry, because I do think this is FIP and I-R works by jump-starting an immune response, and with FIP it is the immune response that kills them. Plus I would need to take her to the vet for IV shots, as the sub-q shots did not seem to help her at all when I thought this was just a URI weeks ago and gave them to her. There was reason for you not to think Bandy had FIP. He might have had dry FIP, you know. It is not unheard of for a cat to be kept going for a year with dry FIP. But Lucy is like a huge sack of jelly at this point. She can't even absorb sub-q fluids-- they go to her belly or stay in her shoulders. It is like her whole body has turned to jelly. She does not walk well. I have no idea how she got herself to the top of the cat tree last night. A part of me thinks that I should just get her euthanized tomorrow (today is Sunday and I am not driving her to an ER). I hardly ever euthanize, and when I do it is when they are actually dying or in distress. And she purrs when we pet her, and she takes a few licks of food at a time, and she got to the top of a cat tree last night. So I don't want to. she looks awful, though, and I would guess her HCT is incredibly low. Am I being horrible? Michelle In a message dated 2/3/2007 11:15:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Michelle, I haven't had a chance to catch up on all of this, but I read that someone said stay on dex...I would have to agree with this..I don't think the fevers are from the dex..That would be almost impossible..I think.. Is she drinking on her own at all? I would stay with the clindamycin, dex, feline interferon and epogen.. Have you recently given her immuno-regulin? Bandy received all those things except the feline interferon at the same time and always with good results...They always mentioned he had FIP, but I would just disagree with them..guess cause his tests didn't really reflect it at the specialist..Commits were always made about it at his local vet.. When Bandy wouldn't eat...I would do as I am sure you are..try everything..Kitten food would work sometimes when all else failed..he was on hills kitten food most of the time anyway.. But I would buy can kitten food..and even offer him other not so good smelly things...Just getting him to eat anything would sometimes make him turn the corner to go back on his regular diet.. The egg yolk, white karo and evap milk..sometimes would work, too..I don't know how Lucy's IBD would handle that though..Have you tried cat-sure? Prayers are coming your way, Kerry, Angel Bandy and Inky
Re: Luy not eating
Michelle, Am still thinking of you and Lucy. I know from experience that a cat's HCT can be super low, and they are still alive. Again, you will know. You are doing everything right, and have gotten advice from knowlegable people. When the time comes, you will be at peace knowing you did all you could do. Dede When you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God Mosiah 2:17 Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
Re: Luy not eating
No - you are not horrible at all. You are thinking of Lucy and how to do what is best and what is right for her. Use your intuition, Michelle - you know her better than anyone. This is such a terrible disease. I've only started reading about it since your ordeal. My heart and my prayers are still with you. elizabeth On 2/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yesterday at one point Lucy howled and started open mouth breathing and stumbled to the garage door where there is cold air. I assumed (and still think) it was her anemia getting so bad she was not getting enough oxygen. I almost reached for valium to knock her out for euthanasia, but instead gave her a combo dex/depo shot just to see if it would help. She settled down and lay on a pillow by the garage door for hours, and we lay with her petting her, and she purred a lot and eventually ate a little bit. Last night she climbed to th top of the cat tree again at some point, and back down, and is on the couch now. She tried to eat a little baby food, but I don't think she can taste or smell due to congestion that came back with the steroids, so she only ate a little. So I syringed her, thinking once a day is not that much torture. I only pilled her once yesterday. I am just trying to keep her comfortable, and when she is not I won't let her suffer. As I am writing, she got up and went into the kitchen to drink some water. I don't want to give her immuno-regulin, Kerry, because I do think this is FIP and I-R works by jump-starting an immune response, and with FIP it is the immune response that kills them. Plus I would need to take her to the vet for IV shots, as the sub-q shots did not seem to help her at all when I thought this was just a URI weeks ago and gave them to her. There was reason for you not to think Bandy had FIP. He might have had dry FIP, you know. It is not unheard of for a cat to be kept going for a year with dry FIP. But Lucy is like a huge sack of jelly at this point. She can't even absorb sub-q fluids-- they go to her belly or stay in her shoulders. It is like her whole body has turned to jelly. She does not walk well. I have no idea how she got herself to the top of the cat tree last night. A part of me thinks that I should just get her euthanized tomorrow (today is Sunday and I am not driving her to an ER). I hardly ever euthanize, and when I do it is when they are actually dying or in distress. And she purrs when we pet her, and she takes a few licks of food at a time, and she got to the top of a cat tree last night. So I don't want to. she looks awful, though, and I would guess her HCT is incredibly low. Am I being horrible? Michelle In a message dated 2/3/2007 11:15:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Michelle, I haven't had a chance to catch up on all of this, but I read that someone said stay on dex...I would have to agree with this..I don't think the fevers are from the dex..That would be almost impossible..I think.. Is she drinking on her own at all? I would stay with the clindamycin, dex, feline interferon and epogen.. Have you recently given her immuno-regulin? Bandy received all those things except the feline interferon at the same time and always with good results...They always mentioned he had FIP, but I would just disagree with them..guess cause his tests didn't really reflect it at the specialist..Commits were always made about it at his local vet.. When Bandy wouldn't eat...I would do as I am sure you are..try everything..Kitten food would work sometimes when all else failed..he was on hills kitten food most of the time anyway.. But I would buy can kitten food..and even offer him other not so good smelly things...Just getting him to eat anything would sometimes make him turn the corner to go back on his regular diet.. The egg yolk, white karo and evap milk..sometimes would work, too..I don't know how Lucy's IBD would handle that though..Have you tried cat-sure? Prayers are coming your way, Kerry, Angel Bandy and Inky
Re: Lucy not eating
Michelle, The thing with force feeding is that it's worth it if it gets them through something, it's not worth it if it doesn't. And the hard thing with that is that you don't know which situation you're in. Give her a day to not eat to see if the appetite will come back of its own accord. Lucy seems to have been eating pretty well so far, and even 10 licks of the baby food is very encouraging. I've gotten to where I'm counting the pieces of kibble that go in on their own and if it's in the double digits, I'll claim success. You know from when you're sick that you can feel ill and not eat, or not eat much for a day, but then the next day, even if still sick, the hunger will get the best of you. You won't be putting her in harm's way if you let her not eat one day, in fact you might be doing her a service as it might be best to have an empty system for a bit to reset it, and you won't be fighting with the force feeding. I know about fatty liver disease, but it's more common for cats to fast and be okay than fast and get FLS. In my experience, the time/energy investment of forcefeeding compared to the amount of food that gets down is disproportionate. Be easy and patient both with yourself and Lucy, you're both doing the best you can. One of my forcefeeding battles resulted in another six months with my Hepburn. Even so, though, I don't know if it was necessary or worth it. Then at the end, I force fed when I shouldn't have. That was FIP (not confirmed through necropsy, but she had the distended belly and the fluid was drawn, etc). I regret putting us through that. If it's a cold, that's fabulous, give it a day to see if the Vick's helps, if the congestion loosens. It seems like she's been on a pendulum back and forth, which makes it exceedingly difficult to find patterns. All this to say that I know that you'll force feed and you're doing the best thing for Lucy. You'll know when to stop if it's necessary. Leslie From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Lucy not eating Well, as of last night she will not eat at all. She was hardly eating since I gave her the dex shot the night before, I think because it unmasked her URI and her nose got congested. I have a vicks vaporizer on for that, used nose drops, gave lysine, etc. but it is not clearing up this time. But she was eating a little. I then gave her denosyl for the third night in a row. And I think it made her nauseous, because she has not eaten a thing since and and she looked bad for about an hour afterwards. I looked it up and it can cause vomiting, apparently-- don't know how I missed that the first time. The second night I think it may have made her temporarily nauseous as well, but I thought it was the feline interferon. The result is that she is not eating at all now. I did syringe her a little (about 20 cc' baby food) last night. But she hated it. I don't know what to do. She probably has wet fip. I had told myself I would not torture her by force feeding her when she is terminal anyway. But I don't know now. What if she really is not eating just because her nose is stuffed up from the dex? Monday will be week 2 of epogen and feline interferon-- what if they started working? It is all doubtful. I do not want her last days to be full only of needles, pills, and forced feedings. I also don't want her to die early because of a stuffed up nose, if that is what is going on. what to do? Please pray for her. thanks, Michelle
Re: Luy not eating
Michelle, I don't think you are horrible for considering euthanizing Lucy. You've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at her and she hasn't responded the way you hoped and now it seems you've come to the agonizing point of resolving yourself to the fact that your intervention won't be able to turn her around. This is only my intuition talking, perhaps I'm wrong, but you still seem desperate to control the situation, helping her cross is the final thing that you could do for her. I fully realize how much you love her, that everything you've done has been with her best interest in mind, I'm confident that Lucy feels that way too. She's been such a trooper through all this, she's still purring when you and Gray pet her, she's still licking at her food, she's still grateful for the time she can spend with you. As long as she's still showing you that she wants to stay, I would back off of all meds except those that might make her more comfortable, (perhaps just Pred and maybe saline nose drops for the congestion), and let her take it from here. I know how you and Gray feel about euthanasia, if that is what you decided to do, make sure it is coming from your heart and not your head. Listen to her, she will tell you when/if she is ready. My heart and thoughts are with you, Nina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yesterday at one point Lucy howled and started open mouth breathing and stumbled to the garage door where there is cold air. I assumed (and still think) it was her anemia getting so bad she was not getting enough oxygen. I almost reached for valium to knock her out for euthanasia, but instead gave her a combo dex/depo shot just to see if it would help. She settled down and lay on a pillow by the garage door for hours, and we lay with her petting her, and she purred a lot and eventually ate a little bit. Last night she climbed to th top of the cat tree again at some point, and back down, and is on the couch now. She tried to eat a little baby food, but I don't think she can taste or smell due to congestion that came back with the steroids, so she only ate a little. So I syringed her, thinking once a day is not that much torture. I only pilled her once yesterday. I am just trying to keep her comfortable, and when she is not I won't let her suffer. As I am writing, she got up and went into the kitchen to drink some water. I don't want to give her immuno-regulin, Kerry, because I do think this is FIP and I-R works by jump-starting an immune response, and with FIP it is the immune response that kills them. Plus I would need to take her to the vet for IV shots, as the sub-q shots did not seem to help her at all when I thought this was just a URI weeks ago and gave them to her. There was reason for you not to think Bandy had FIP. He might have had dry FIP, you know. It is not unheard of for a cat to be kept going for a year with dry FIP. But Lucy is like a huge sack of jelly at this point. She can't even absorb sub-q fluids-- they go to her belly or stay in her shoulders. It is like her whole body has turned to jelly. She does not walk well. I have no idea how she got herself to the top of the cat tree last night. A part of me thinks that I should just get her euthanized tomorrow (today is Sunday and I am not driving her to an ER). I hardly ever euthanize, and when I do it is when they are actually dying or in distress. And she purrs when we pet her, and she takes a few licks of food at a time, and she got to the top of a cat tree last night. So I don't want to. she looks awful, though, and I would guess her HCT is incredibly low. Am I being horrible? Michelle
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
At 11:11 AM 2/4/2007, you wrote: I am soo happy these guys are safe and warm and cared for. It is amazing that regardless of our distress we always accommodate just one more and sleep so much better knowing they are safe. PLEASE let us know how they are doing,, no go make some hot chocolate and cover up. Kelly www.kellyscatrs.zoomshare.com I know this is OT, but I have written about Bart Charity, my ferals to the list.. And off list to Nina Kerry.. The other night, we had a (short) blizzard here And, my room mate was off on an appt. I had to walk my dogs after feeding. (NOT easy, I am so afraid of slipping falling losing my K-9 babies). Anyway, after feeding, when I was out with my Rottie, I heard these sweet cat sounds - turns out it was my dear Charity, she has come around so much, and her talking sounded like she wanted my help. Well, my Rottie is deaf, and I am almost blind I couldn't see her, and (Lady)Bug couldn't hear her, but when Bug SAW her, BAM -- thought for sure I was going down. And Charity has no fear of dogs, so she proceeded to approach me And, Bug is STRONG, and even pulling her leash back, well, w/ all my problems, it was tough.. I finally got Bug back into house and went back out, into the blizzard, to see if I could get Charity.. I was out for over THREE hours! I was able to scruff her when in yard, but she freaked (NO claws!!! She has come a long way...). But, having hardly any use of my right arm, I had to let her go.. So, we decided to go out to barn.. And, while there, guess who comes out? BART I was shocked!! He had been in the blankets, etc. I have over crate, I guess trying to keep warm.. But, I was there w/ food, and he came out... By this time, over 3 hours, I had to sit down in my recliner to rest.. And, then, Charity, and Bart, come up, rub against my legs, so I figured the time was right!!! I reached down, scruffed Charity, then found out, she allowed me to just hold her... So, I had to make the long journey back to house, with her (peacefully) in my arms.. (I had closed the barn door, and left the food in the well-insulated crate for Bart) My main fear was Charity freaking once we got in house 'cause my dogs, 4 BIG, are very loud..They love cats, but, can act weird when a new one comes in. Thank heavens, after I gave them a talking-to when entering, none of them barked, got up, or did anything So, I got my Charity into a large crate and there she remains... (She was tested - negative, but that was over a year agoAnd w/ my Puma, recently being diagnosed w/ FIP toxo, well, I didn't want to expose any of my babies Charity will be re-tested, and we'll go from there...) Back to Bart. When I got back to barn, he was in crate, so I closed the door When I looked him over, well, now I am really concerned.. He is so bloated Thought maybe I got a diff. pregnant female, but, he still has his equipment... And, Bart, was always SO feral, I could never get close to him. Now, he allowed me to pet him, seemed to like it. But, while stroking him, I could feel his backbone.And other bones. Made me wonder just what his problem is. Also, his eyes are clouded, like cataracts or glaucoma (?). He also looks OLD. Probably is, he's been around here since I've been here...2 1/2 years now... So, I wormed him, and did not find anything in his feces...And, as bloated as he was, I figured if it was worms they'd be as big as a snake. But, NOTHINGI even used my magnifying glass. I worry now that maybe it's FIP. (A very recent topic on list lately.) I called my rescue partner she is going to get us a vet appt. But, before I neuter him, I am going to have him hospitalized 'til we get all the blood test results back.. Depending on what the results are, I will be faced w/ having to decide what to do. I do have another rescue buddy that has converted her barn into a shelter, w/ indiviual homes, I just don't know.. So, Bart is still in crate in barn.. It's very well insulated, and, when I was able, I had insulated parts of barn, filling cracks, etc. I just worry 'cause we're in a deep-freeze. He has a good bed, lots of thermals, and the crate is also insulated, w/ thermal on the outside... But, it's so cold and he's so old. He is eating, and I do venture out (slowly carefully) to feed and water him daily. One thing I noticed, his water only had a partial skim on top, not frozen thru. So, I guess the barn is pretty well insulated. Just pray we can get to vet early this week... I would have written sooner, but besides being over-whatever, my room mate was NOT too happy. But, I told him, da-m it, I survived the MVA 'cause I have work to do - and it IS my rescue work!!! And, prior to getting Charity Bart,
RE: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Patti, you are a wonder! Congratulations on getting the furbabies inside and safe from the storm. Here are vibes that they both check out OK at the vet and that Bart doesn't have FIP. You go girl!! Diane R. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:12 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: OT: Bart Charty are now safe W/ me!!! I know this is OT, but I have written about Bart Charity, my ferals to the list.. And off list to Nina Kerry.. The other night, we had a (short) blizzard here And, my room mate was off on an appt. I had to walk my dogs after feeding. (NOT easy, I am so afraid of slipping falling losing my K-9 babies). Anyway, after feeding, when I was out with my Rottie, I heard these sweet cat sounds - turns out it was my dear Charity, she has come around so much, and her talking sounded like she wanted my help. Well, my Rottie is deaf, and I am almost blind I couldn't see her, and (Lady)Bug couldn't hear her, but when Bug SAW her, BAM -- thought for sure I was going down. And Charity has no fear of dogs, so she proceeded to approach me And, Bug is STRONG, and even pulling her leash back, well, w/ all my problems, it was tough.. I finally got Bug back into house and went back out, into the blizzard, to see if I could get Charity.. I was out for over THREE hours! I was able to scruff her when in yard, but she freaked (NO claws!!! She has come a long way...). But, having hardly any use of my right arm, I had to let her go.. So, we decided to go out to barn.. And, while there, guess who comes out? BART I was shocked!! He had been in the blankets, etc. I have over crate, I guess trying to keep warm.. But, I was there w/ food, and he came out... By this time, over 3 hours, I had to sit down in my recliner to rest.. And, then, Charity, and Bart, come up, rub against my legs, so I figured the time was right!!! I reached down, scruffed Charity, then found out, she allowed me to just hold her... So, I had to make the long journey back to house, with her (peacefully) in my arms.. (I had closed the barn door, and left the food in the well-insulated crate for Bart) My main fear was Charity freaking once we got in house 'cause my dogs, 4 BIG, are very loud..They love cats, but, can act weird when a new one comes in. Thank heavens, after I gave them a talking-to when entering, none of them barked, got up, or did anything So, I got my Charity into a large crate and there she remains... (She was tested - negative, but that was over a year agoAnd w/ my Puma, recently being diagnosed w/ FIP toxo, well, I didn't want to expose any of my babies Charity will be re-tested, and we'll go from there...) Back to Bart. When I got back to barn, he was in crate, so I closed the door When I looked him over, well, now I am really concerned.. He is so bloated Thought maybe I got a diff. pregnant female, but, he still has his equipment... And, Bart, was always SO feral, I could never get close to him. Now, he allowed me to pet him, seemed to like it. But, while stroking him, I could feel his backbone.And other bones. Made me wonder just what his problem is. Also, his eyes are clouded, like cataracts or glaucoma (?). He also looks OLD. Probably is, he's been around here since I've been here...2 1/2 years now... So, I wormed him, and did not find anything in his feces...And, as bloated as he was, I figured if it was worms they'd be as big as a snake. But, NOTHINGI even used my magnifying glass. I worry now that maybe it's FIP. (A very recent topic on list lately.) I called my rescue partner she is going to get us a vet appt. But, before I neuter him, I am going to have him hospitalized 'til we get all the blood test results back.. Depending on what the results are, I will be faced w/ having to decide what to do. I do have another rescue buddy that has converted her barn into a shelter, w/ indiviual homes, I just don't know.. So, Bart is still in crate in barn.. It's very well insulated, and, when I was able, I had insulated parts of barn, filling cracks, etc. I just worry 'cause we're in a deep-freeze. He has a good bed, lots of thermals, and the crate is also insulated, w/ thermal on the outside... But, it's so cold and he's so old. He is eating, and I do venture out (slowly carefully) to feed and water him daily. One thing I noticed, his water only had a partial skim on top, not frozen thru. So, I guess the barn is pretty well insulated. Just pray we can get to vet early this week... I would have written sooner, but besides being over-whatever, my room mate was NOT too happy. But, I told him, da-m it, I survived the MVA
essiac tonic
Hi, does anyone know a lot about essiat tonic and what it does to the body? Is it good for other than cancers?
Re: Luy not eating
actually, I think I meant to ask if I am horrible if I don't euthanise her, not if I do. She is clearly suffering to some extent. Every once in a while she seems to need air, meows and breathes with her mouth open, and if we open a door or window to the cold air she settles down. I gave her another dex shot (last one over 24 hours ago), and she started purring a little and walked a little better. Earlier today we realized she had dried diarrhea caked all over her behind, as if she had sat down in it during the night. I washed it off, which took a long time, and she purred very loudly during the whole thing and put her butt up in the air for me to wash and dry it. It was heartbreaking and cute at the same time. I am thinking of asking the vet to come over tomorrow. My heart is against it, but my mind says she is going through something that she does not have to. I decide it, and then after looking miserable for 30 minutes, she looks at me and starts purring, or checks out a food bowl and eats about a spoonful of baby food. And I think no, wait until she is in more distress than this. I have injectable valium in the fridge, given to me almost two years ago. I was thinking that if she goes into distress I can give her that and then call the vet. I looked it up online, though, and it said that IM valium can be painful, and that in a small number of cats it has the opposite than wanted effect, ie makes them hyperexcitable. She had hyperexcitability when she came out of anesthesia from having her bladder stone removed, so I worry about that. I also have telazol that was given to me for Simon-- I gave him half the shot to knock him out when he went into distress and he went to sleep and later died in his sleep. I kept the rest of the shot. The needle is not clean, obviously, but I guess at that point it would not matter. It is also two years old. In fact, he died two years ago tomorrow. How strange is that? All of my positives have died between the dates 12/31 and 2/22-- less than a 2 month span in deep winter. It seems like it must not just be coincidental, but like winter knocks their immune systems, even though they are inside. so I have been thinking we can just stay with her until she goes into distress, tranquilize her then and call the vet. But is it fair and right? Is episodic extreme weakness and open mouthed breathing, if it lasts only a few minutes, acceptable to live through if a half hour later she can eat a little food and purr? What about having crusted diarrhea on her, if she then likes having it cleaned off? She seemed in good health 3 weeks ago. I can not believe how fast her decline has been. I don't know if any of you remember, but in late December I emailed saying that she seemed to be gaining weight but only in her belly, and that I thought it might be fluid and could she have fip. Everyone said no, because she was not sick otherwise. But I think it must have started then, oddly enough, and she just did not show symptoms for another 3-4 weeks. I think now i should have taken her somewhere, that if the fluid had been found then, and maybe her anemia, I could have started her on feline interferon and epogen and maybe they actually would have worked. I started them too late. And then I think that none of the success stories I have read about with feline interferon and fip concern and felv+ cat, and at least we had a few weeks thinking things were ok, and not forcing meds on her. I don't know. So painful. Michelle In a message dated 2/4/2007 3:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michelle, I don't think you are horrible for considering euthanizing Lucy. You've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at her and she hasn't responded the way you hoped and now it seems you've come to the agonizing point of resolving yourself to the fact that your intervention won't be able to turn her around. This is only my intuition talking, perhaps I'm wrong, but you still seem desperate to control the situation, helping her cross is the final thing that you could do for her. I fully realize how much you love her, that everything you've done has been with her best interest in mind, I'm confident that Lucy feels that way too. She's been such a trooper through all this, she's still purring when you and Gray pet her, she's still licking at her food, she's still grateful for the time she can spend with you. As long as she's still showing you that she wants to stay, I would back off of all meds except those that might make her more comfortable, (perhaps just Pred and maybe saline nose drops for the congestion), and let her take it from here. I know how you and Gray feel about euthanasia, if that is what you decided to do, make sure it is coming from your heart and not your head. Listen to her, she will tell you when/if she is ready.
Re: Luy not eating
I have backed off the meds. Just steroid shot once a day, and I gave her a metronidazole and her clindamycin once yesterday instead of twice, in case the metronidazole helps her diarrhea or the clindamycin helps the congestion. And nose drops every other day. That's all, though. I dont know what it means for her to show us she wants to stay. she looks pretty awful. Does purring occasionally, or laying the in the sun occasionally, or licking at food, mean that she wants to stay?? Michelle In a message dated 2/4/2007 3:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As long as she's still showing you that she wants to stay, I would back off of all meds except those that might make her more comfortable
Re: Luy not eating
I just don't know Michelle were she my cat, I would have euth'd her already, but she's not my cat. I do know purring isn't necessarily a good sign, they purr when they are miserable too. I think maybe it's time, but only you can see her, and read her body language. Phaewryn
Re: Luy not eating
At 12:20 PM 2/4/2007, you wrote: We tend to put our own subjective feelings on theirbehavior, Cats do purr a lot if they are in severe pain, It is just a reaction, the sunlight is craving warmth,,,nature had a good system of allowing an animal to die when the time was right, They did stop eating...we..all of us..tend to push food, I am as guilty as the rest,In a case where there is hope for recovery that is a different matter, but in a case when the agony is only being prolonged I have to wonder. I only say this as I totally understand your despair at having to say good by for now, It is heartbreaking, but ask yourself if you are doing this for Lucy our yourself, Your love for her is so unconditional and she know it, I think the best thing to keep at home is Buprenex,,, it is a great pain reliever and makes them pretty dopy, I also use Acepromazine,,, Yes on occasion Valium causes them to become excited, Is there a vet you trust that can get you some buprenex to have at home, My heart is with you through this very sad time, Kelly I have backed off the meds. Just steroid shot once a day, and I gave her a metronidazole and her clindamycin once yesterday instead of twice, in case the metronidazole helps her diarrhea or the clindamycin helps the congestion. And nose drops every other day. That's all, though. I dont know what it means for her to show us she wants to stay. she looks pretty awful. Does purring occasionally, or laying the in the sun occasionally, or licking at food, mean that she wants to stay?? Michelle In a message dated 2/4/2007 3:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As long as she's still showing you that she wants to stay, I would back off of all meds except those that might make her more comfortable No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.24/668 - Release Date: 2/4/2007
Re: Lucy (michelle, bless you, I'm so sorry I have to say this to you)
I care about you, and really want you to know I say this with every bit of compassion and care I can. I know you are suffering and confused, and desperate. Please know I have Lucy's well-being at heart when I say this to you... No, you are absolutely WRONG! Oh please do NOT attempt home euthanasia/sedation! Especially with expired drugs and old dull dirty needles?! My god, are you listening to yourself Michelle? Please THINK, ok? My step-dad did that with one of my mom's dogs, and it was HORRIBLE, my mom is still permanently traumatized, she had to hold the squealing, writhing, and miserable suffering dog all the way to the vet 30 miles away after my step dad tried to do it at home. PLEASE leave the euthanasia to the professionals I think you are really at the end of your rope, and not being rational anymore. Please believe me when I say it is MUCH better to euthanise a little too soon than even a little too late! But, for god's sake, don't try to do it yourself! You, yourself, in one of your last emails said it's obvious she is suffering at times. Do you really need any more of a sign than that? Lucy has lived a wonderful long life, full of love and good times, it is her time to leave. You can't fight it, you can't beat it, you can only prolong the end. The question is, is it something you SHOULD be prolonging? Is she HAPPY right now? Can you truly say she is HAPPY, and COMFORTABLE? Or are you just trying to convince yourself that she's Not suffering too bad? Then you must ask, is ANY suffering good? That will be your answer. Bless you Michelle, I know you are in such pain, and don't want to let go or give up on her, but you're so close to the subject that you can't get any perspective. Please take a step back and really CONSIDER the situation. Please take this as it's intended... I mean you no insult, but you are not being rational anymore. Phaewryn
Re: Luy not eating
I know that about purring. But she only purrs when we pet her, not otherwise, so I do think that means she likes us petting her. In a message dated 2/4/2007 5:07:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I just don't know Michelle were she my cat, I would have euth'd her already, but she's not my cat. I do know purring isn't necessarily a good sign, they purr when they are miserable too. I think maybe it's time, but only you can see her, and read her body language. Phaewryn
euthanasia
I do not often get offended by this list, and I know I am in a bad state to begin with. But I really take offense at this thing people always say, which at least one of you has said to me in my questioning what to do about euthanasia, that I need to ask if I am keeping her here for me or for her. We are talking about ending a life. Believe me, if I could actually tell that it would be the best thing for her, I would do it. As painful as it will be to be without her, it is also painful to watch her deteriorate. What I am trying to figure out is what is best for her, not what is best for me. Taking someone's life should not be done lightly, and if someone seems to be getting some enjoyment out of life, I think it is a totally fair question to ask if it is right to take their life at this time or if it is better to wait, for their own sake. For Lucy's sake. So I appreciate any insights about that, but I am going to stop asking for opinions here, because I don't think that just because I have different standards about euthanasia it means I am doing it or not doing it for me and being selfish. I could say the same thing, if I wanted, about people who euthanize as soon as they know something is terminal-- most people can not deal with hospice care or watching the decline of someone they love, so maybe they just euthanize for themselves. Enough. I will deal with this on my own if that is the kind of answer I am going to get. I will stay offline now until this is over. Michelle
Fwd: from Michelle Lerner
Apropos to what I just wrote is an email I got from my old chiropractor, a healer, who I asked the same question of. Michelle ---BeginMessage--- Hi MIchelle, I am so sorry to hear about your sadness. The question you are asking, I am afraid, isn't an easy one to answer. I will do my best. I think sometimes the most heroic thing we can do for one another is to allow suffering. Knowing that suffering is a sacred process is important. Often, we want to end OUR suffering at another's suffering. That seems unfair. Perhaps their soul is meant to have this struggle and the kindest thing we can do is to be there, listen, love, share. Trying to fix it or change it or stop it only robs the soul of an opportunity to evolve. Another thought about dying is that it is very similiar to midwifery. You are helping someone to transition. The energy can be very similiar. By trying to manage, control, anesthetize the being, you are robbing them of an incredibly powerful moment. On the other hand, (I am a libra and torment myself by understanding all sides)I also believe that pain medication is there for a reason and that it can sometimes create more peace for all parties to transition and evolve. It can create a less violent experience. Ultimately, I do not think that there are any easy answers. I think I will include you and Gray in my circle of prayers so that you will all have the strength, the courage and inner connection to listen deeply to what is calling you in the moment...thinking beyond simple right and wrong...no pun intended but being willing to live in the GRAY/GREY area with an open heart and soul. With much love and sympathy, Pam and a thing that From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/04 Sun AM 08:48:00 CST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: from Michelle Lerner Hi. I had been trying to email you a week or so ago because I sent an email to all my friend who I think might pray, asking them to pray for my cat Lucy. I had heard that lots of people praying, for one reason or another, sometimes helps. She seems to have wet FIP. I don't know if you know what that is, but it is an incurable, fast-moving disease. She is extremely anemic, lethargic, and her belly and sides are full of fluid so she looks like a huge sack of jelly. Right now I am just trying to make her comfortable, giving her lots of steroids and syringe feeding her once a day to make sure she does not feel sick from not eating enough. She eats on her own, just not very much. She purrs when we pet her, and seems to want us with her. And last night she somehow got herself to the top of a 6 foot tall cat tree, which is hard to imagine because she is not even walking very well. I think she mostly feels bad from the anemia-- her gums are white. She has been on epogen to stimulate red blood cell production for almost two weeks, but it normally takes 3 to kick in. Do you or have you or would you euthanize an animal? Gray is against it, and I generally have only done it when they are actually in the process of dying, i.e. their bodies have shut down and they are in rspiratory distress or obvious pain. Except my horse Shire, who was in neither but his whole back end was paralyzed and horses can not live laying down because they crush their own organs and their guts get tied up. Anyway, part of me feels like I should have the vet euthanize Lucy tomorrow, because she is so sick. But I don't know if I would be thinking that if her body did not look so incredibly distorted-- it is what makes her look sickest-- and her distorted body is not, I don't think, what is bothering her. I think it is her anemia. And I think that mostly makes her very very tired, which the steroids help with a little bit. She is not hiding, and purrs when we pet her. I don't really know what to do. I am curious what your feelings are on all of this, if you have time to tell me. thanks, and I hope that you are well, more well than we are right now,Michelle In a message dated 2/4/2007 9:32:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:Hi Michelle, The best address to send something to me personally is [EMAIL PROTECTED] How are you? Pam ---End Message---
Re: euthanasia
Michelle, Please don't cut us off because you are offended by a response. In my heart, I truly believe that response wasn't meant to hurt you. We all need friends who are direct and who tell us exactly what they think - even if it is painful - and not just to tell us what they think we want to hear. You are going through so much pain right now - and taking on Lucy's pain as your own too. You don't need to go through this alone. I think you are doing the right thing by getting input from a lot of different sources - the letter from your healer friend really touched my heart. We all have very different opinions on a number of things - but we all agree on this: we care very much. Please allow us the opportunity to be there for you. My heart is with you, elizabeth On 2/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not often get offended by this list, and I know I am in a bad state to begin with. But I really take offense at this thing people always say, which at least one of you has said to me in my questioning what to do about euthanasia, that I need to ask if I am keeping her here for me or for her. We are talking about ending a life. Believe me, if I could actually tell that it would be the best thing for her, I would do it. As painful as it will be to be without her, it is also painful to watch her deteriorate. What I am trying to figure out is what is best for her, not what is best for me. Taking someone's life should not be done lightly, and if someone seems to be getting some enjoyment out of life, I think it is a totally fair question to ask if it is right to take their life at this time or if it is better to wait, for their own sake. For Lucy's sake. So I appreciate any insights about that, but I am going to stop asking for opinions here, because I don't think that just because I have different standards about euthanasia it means I am doing it or not doing it for me and being selfish. I could say the same thing, if I wanted, about people who euthanize as soon as they know something is terminal-- most people can not deal with hospice care or watching the decline of someone they love, so maybe they just euthanize for themselves. Enough. I will deal with this on my own if that is the kind of answer I am going to get. I will stay offline now until this is over. Michelle
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Charity Bart are in my thoughts and prayers. I think what you are doing is wonderful, Patti. Please keep us updated. Renee
Re: allowing suffering (if you don't like me when I am ranting, then don't read it)
Suffering is a sacred process? Ok, just my opinion, but what a load of crap! I hope that person (pam) had truly suffered in her past, so she will be justified/qualified in advocating suffering in others! How the HELL does she know that suffering in a terminal illness is a pathway to spiritual evolution? Has she ever suffered and DIED of anything? Oh yeah, I'm feeling the need to connect to god (or whatever)... I think I will gouge my own eyes out so I can find that sacred place suffering will take me! Do me a big favor, before advocating allowing suffering in innocent animals, take the biggest kitchen knife you have, put your hand on the table, and stab it right through it. Then, please let me know how sacred you feel, and if you get closer to god that way! Tell me, if this is the right thing to do, WHY do we even bother taking our pets to the vet? Why not just let them suffer until they die to begin with? Oh, so that horse has a broken leg... just let him drag it around, he'll die on his own in a week or two, we'd hate to rob him of his sacred suffering! Yeah, fat chance! I'm going on no mail for a while I can't stand to listen to this SICKNESS. Phaewryn
Lucy and unsubscribing
Since I last wrote, Lucy got up, climbed all 14 stairs to the upstairs, ate half a jar of baby food and a couple pieces of dry food, curled up on a cat bed, and is purring away as Gray pets her. When Gray poured the dry food for Patches, Lucy literally got up and ran over to it, trying to push Patched out of the way. I know she has FIP, or most likely does. I know there is no real cure and it will get her. But today does not seem to be the day, and I do not think it is selfish to decide that. Someone who can and wants to climb stairs, wants to eat (even if not a normal amount), wants company and pets, and can go running over to a bowl of food is, in my opinion, not asking to be killed. To whoever wrote that I should not do home euthanasia, I was not considering home euthanasia, I was considering, in an emergency if she gets in distress, tranquilizing her until a vet could come or we could get to a vet. i did that with Simon and he immediately slept and actually died in his sleep before we needed to. But it was not intended as euthanasia. I and several others on the list have also used oral valium to ease passings, and it has done so. I do not think this is irrational. I stopped reading posts after that and just deleted, to whoever wrote something in the subject line about allowing suffering. Given that I had just come downstairs from Lucy's little trek and eating spree, it seemed too ridiculous to read. This list has been a godsend for me at times, and I have made friendships with a few of you that I hope to continue offline from the group. But this group is not helping me right now and is actually upsetting me quite a bit. So I am unsubscribing. Nina and Hideyo, I hope to stay in touch with you individually, and anyone else who actually wants to, and to share ideas and emotional support. But I am done with the group. Michelle
My Dearest Michelle
Oh Michelle, I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine how awful it must be to be in the middle of this torment and feel like you have to stay away from the usual support of the list because we've hurt you even more. I'm so upset, I've been so upset right along side you throughout this. All I want to do is ease your burdens and help Lucy in whatever way I can and I'm falling so short of doing that. It sounds familiar, huh? Maybe I should take my own advice and stop struggling so hard to help fix things. I wasn't sure if I should write to you. I wasn't sure if any thing I had to say would be welcome. I've given you my phone number, I'm here supporting you day and night, even if you never pick up the phone. I don't want to intrude any more than I have, I just wanted you to know that I care and I'm so sorry for all you guys are going through. You asked how you would know what Lucy wants, how to know if she is ready ... That's part of the reason I've been so insistent about quieting yourself, quieting all the stress, you need to be quiet and still to hear her. The experience I had with Spencer will stay with me forever. That last day shared with him was full of love and magic. I've never been more connected in love with another being. It wasn't like I planned to call the vet when he could no longer hold up his head, until he was so exhausted that he no longer was able to move, I simply waited until I /knew/ he was ready. Until I knew we were through saying our goodbyes. It was sort of like seeing someone off at the railway terminal and even though their train isn't leaving for another couple of hours, it's still time to part, there's nothing more to say or experience, so you walk away with a hug and a kiss and tears running down your face. He truly seemed to be telling me, it's okay Mom, it's time for me to leave. From what you last described with Lucy, it doesn't sound like she's there yet. Only the three of you will know if she wants help crossing. No one else can tell you that. Trust the connection you share, you said that you have made arrangements if her suffering becomes too great, in the meantime bask in her companionship for as long as you can. It may seem ridiculous, but I'm still praying for miracles. I'm praying for you, Gray and Lucy to share the kind of intimacy that Spencer and I had. I'm praying for strength and comfort for you. I'm praying that you feel the love that so many people are sending your way to try and help you through this. Maybe it's not such a bad thing to go off list for a while. This time is sacred and I know you want to focus your attention on Lucy, if being on list causes you more anguish, or pulls your attention from Lucy in any way, then staying away from the computer may be what you need to do. With much love, Nina
Unsubscribing
Michelle, Please don't leave this list. You have helped me and so many others with our fur babies. We need your calm loving caring answers that you have always been ready to give. I for one have the same feeling that if one of my babies is eating and still showing a desire to go on I will do everything in my power to help them live. I know that a lot of people believe in euthanasia and I have had to do it but only once and it was horrible. I know a lot of people choose to help there babies leave ,but I truly believe that you will know when the time is right. I know that you are desperate to do what is right for Lucy . My heart breaks for you and Gray. I will continue to pray for you . Sheila
Michelle and Lucy
Michelle, You and Lucy are still in my prayers. I'm sorry you're upset by something that's been said. I just skipped about 900 messages because I was worried when I saw you said unsubscribe and thought you had lost Lucy. Please reconsider. You are in a terrible place right now and you need the group. When I'm in a bad place I need your support and wealth of knowledge as well. You belong here, and anyone who knows you knows that you give your all for your cats (and dogs and horses) and doesn't question or judge your decisions. When one of my cats gets sick you are one of the first people I want in my corner. You belong here, and Lucy will let you know (as she is doing now) whether she wants to stay or go. I'm just so sorry you're going through all of this. You've had more than your share over the last year. take care, tonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I last wrote, Lucy got up, climbed all 14 stairs to the upstairs, ate half a jar of baby food and a couple pieces of dry food, curled up on a cat bed, and is purring away as Gray pets her. When Gray poured the dry food for Patches, Lucy literally got up and ran over to it, trying to push Patched out of the way. I know she has FIP, or most likely does. I know there is no real cure and it will get her. But today does not seem to be the day, and I do not think it is selfish to decide that. Someone who can and wants to climb stairs, wants to eat (even if not a normal amount), wants company and pets, and can go running over to a bowl of food is, in my opinion, not asking to be killed. To whoever wrote that I should not do home euthanasia, I was not considering home euthanasia, I was considering, in an emergency if she gets in distress, tranquilizing her until a vet could come or we could get to a vet. i did that with Simon and he immediately slept and actually died in his sleep before we needed to. But it was not intended as euthanasia. I and several others on the list have also used oral valium to ease passings, and it has done so. I do not think this is irrational. I stopped reading posts after that and just deleted, to whoever wrote something in the subject line about allowing suffering. Given that I had just come downstairs from Lucy's little trek and eating spree, it seemed too ridiculous to read. This list has been a godsend for me at times, and I have made friendships with a few of you that I hope to continue offline from the group. But this group is not helping me right now and is actually upsetting me quite a bit. So I am unsubscribing. Nina and Hideyo, I hope to stay in touch with you individually, and anyone else who actually wants to, and to share ideas and emotional support. But I am done with the group. Michelle
Re: Rompi
Hi Paolo, I hope you've got this straightened out by now, but you should be able to just create a whole new yahoo address and rejoin the group. You and Rompi are in my prayers. tonya Paolo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for not having written before, yesterday I was just too shocked and needed a rest to gather my ideas. In addition, very high stress always induces me sleep, just could not stay awake. We haven't assessed more specifically the type of lymphoma yet, but are going to do it between today and monday. Michelle, I have a problem with Yahoo groups. I am a subscriber of the feline anemia group since 2000 or maybe even before, so I guess I have an User ID and password (but my Email address is not with Yahoo, as you can see). But now, at 7+ years, I cannot remember my ID or password any longer. The strange thing is that I remember there was a security question to be answered, that I filled in at the moment of subscription, that should serve to retrieve ID and/or Password. But I am unable to find where to access to that question. In addition, even trying to create a new profile as a new user, Yahoo only accepts @yahoo.com addresses where to send group posts. This is definitely odd. Is it possible that, being a member of the Feline Anemia group already, and so receiving the posts, there isn't a way to have me recognized as a legitimate user? Is there a way to write to a human being at Yahoo, and not to a stupid automated answer system? Soon Paolo
Re: Lucy and unsubscribing
Oh Michelle PLEASE do not leave us.You have been here for me so many times and it just would not be the same without you here.Phaewryn was not trying to hurt you and maybe she misunderstood what you were saying.That is so easy to do while communicating this way.PLEASE reconsider. Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I last wrote, Lucy got up, climbed all 14 stairs to the upstairs, ate half a jar of baby food and a couple pieces of dry food, curled up on a cat bed, and is purring away as Gray pets her. When Gray poured the dry food for Patches, Lucy literally got up and ran over to it, trying to push Patched out of the way. I know she has FIP, or most likely does. I know there is no real cure and it will get her. But today does not seem to be the day, and I do not think it is selfish to decide that. Someone who can and wants to climb stairs, wants to eat (even if not a normal amount), wants company and pets, and can go running over to a bowl of food is, in my opinion, not asking to be killed. To whoever wrote that I should not do home euthanasia, I was not considering home euthanasia, I was considering, in an emergency if she gets in distress, tranquilizing her until a vet could come or we could get to a vet. i did that with Simon and he immediately slept and actually died in his sleep before we needed to. But it was not intended as euthanasia. I and several others on the list have also used oral valium to ease passings, and it has done so. I do not think this is irrational. I stopped reading posts after that and just deleted, to whoever wrote something in the subject line about allowing suffering. Given that I had just come downstairs from Lucy's little trek and eating spree, it seemed too ridiculous to read. This list has been a godsend for me at times, and I have made friendships with a few of you that I hope to continue offline from the group. But this group is not helping me right now and is actually upsetting me quite a bit. So I am unsubscribing. Nina and Hideyo, I hope to stay in touch with you individually, and anyone else who actually wants to, and to share ideas and emotional support. But I am done with the group. Michelle - Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.
Re: My Dearest Michelle
Thank you Nina for saying the right thing again. I guess I kind of panicked when Michelle said she was leaving the list. She has always been so kind and helpful . You are right if she needs time away from us to focus on Lucy . We will still be here for her if she needs us. I pray that she will find comfort soon. Sheila
Re: Luy not eating
You can't second guess yourself about if you'd known sooner, etc It is a terrible thing that we have to try to judge the quality of life or amount of pain when we can't just 'ask'. I will say that when I am nauseous I like it to be cool. That might be part of her breathing heavily. And as far as the valium I did have a cat that it had the opposite effect on so I have always been afraid to give it to one of my cats in this situation. I have also seen this in dogs with a different drug that we got from the vet. I would ask the vet for a sedative to keep on hand and see if they'll give you one. I really wanted one with Popeye at the end, but I was afraid to try some xanax thinking it might be like valium and have a bad effect. I know this isn't much help, but I'm sure a lot of people are not online tonight. Hang in there. tonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: actually, I think I meant to ask if I am horrible if I don't euthanise her, not if I do. She is clearly suffering to some extent. Every once in a while she seems to need air, meows and breathes with her mouth open, and if we open a door or window to the cold air she settles down. I gave her another dex shot (last one over 24 hours ago), and she started purring a little and walked a little better. Earlier today we realized she had dried diarrhea caked all over her behind, as if she had sat down in it during the night. I washed it off, which took a long time, and she purred very loudly during the whole thing and put her butt up in the air for me to wash and dry it. It was heartbreaking and cute at the same time. I am thinking of asking the vet to come over tomorrow. My heart is against it, but my mind says she is going through something that she does not have to. I decide it, and then after looking miserable for 30 minutes, she looks at me and starts purring, or checks out a food bowl and eats about a spoonful of baby food. And I think no, wait until she is in more distress than this. I have injectable valium in the fridge, given to me almost two years ago. I was thinking that if she goes into distress I can give her that and then call the vet. I looked it up online, though, and it said that IM valium can be painful, and that in a small number of cats it has the opposite than wanted effect, ie makes them hyperexcitable. She had hyperexcitability when she came out of anesthesia from having her bladder stone removed, so I worry about that. I also have telazol that was given to me for Simon-- I gave him half the shot to knock him out when he went into distress and he went to sleep and later died in his sleep. I kept the rest of the shot. The needle is not clean, obviously, but I guess at that point it would not matter. It is also two years old. In fact, he died two years ago tomorrow. How strange is that? All of my positives have died between the dates 12/31 and 2/22-- less than a 2 month span in deep winter. It seems like it must not just be coincidental, but like winter knocks their immune systems, even though they are inside. so I have been thinking we can just stay with her until she goes into distress, tranquilize her then and call the vet. But is it fair and right? Is episodic extreme weakness and open mouthed breathing, if it lasts only a few minutes, acceptable to live through if a half hour later she can eat a little food and purr? What about having crusted diarrhea on her, if she then likes having it cleaned off? She seemed in good health 3 weeks ago. I can not believe how fast her decline has been. I don't know if any of you remember, but in late December I emailed saying that she seemed to be gaining weight but only in her belly, and that I thought it might be fluid and could she have fip. Everyone said no, because she was not sick otherwise. But I think it must have started then, oddly enough, and she just did not show symptoms for another 3-4 weeks. I think now i should have taken her somewhere, that if the fluid had been found then, and maybe her anemia, I could have started her on feline interferon and epogen and maybe they actually would have worked. I started them too late. And then I think that none of the success stories I have read about with feline interferon and fip concern and felv+ cat, and at least we had a few weeks thinking things were ok, and not forcing meds on her. I don't know. So painful. Michelle In a message dated 2/4/2007 3:06:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Michelle, I don't think you are horrible for considering euthanizing Lucy. You've thrown everything but the kitchen sink at her and she hasn't responded the way you hoped and now it seems you've come to the agonizing point of resolving yourself to the fact that your intervention won't be able to turn her around. This is only my intuition talking, perhaps I'm wrong, but you still seem desperate to control the
RE: Chris and Mylo
Chris, I'm so sorry about Mylo. tonya Chris Ramzy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mylo went to the specialist yesterday. The doctor was very nice and seemed very educated on FeLV. He said that Mylo's kidney's are very inflamed, and that he believe's that Mylo has lymphoma and possibly liver disease. This diagnosis didn't surprise me as I know lymphoma can accompany FeLV. Mylo is dehydrated even though I give him water throughout the day. He's just not drinking enough on his own. So the vet said Mylo would have to be hospitalized, have a blood transfusion, be put on meds and have chemotherapy. He said that even if I did all those things, Mylo would most likely only have 4 to 5 months to live. I am glad I went to the appointment because I wanted a specialist's opinion even though I know how bad off Mylo is. Mylo has hardly eaten the last couple of days. His energy is still very low, and the sick meow sound that he makes once and a while is very painful to hear. Mylo's quality of life has deteriorated within the last month and I don't want to put him through any more stress than he's already gone through. I tried my best to find a way to help him get better but I have to accept that there is nothing more I can do to help him become healthy again. That is a difficult thing. From: Nina Reply-To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Subject: Chris and Mylo Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:57:39 -0800 Hi Chris, I've been thinking about you guys. What happened at the Internist today? I hope no news is good news. Please update us when you can. Nina Chris Ramzy wrote: Thank you Elizabeth. Will give an update after the appointment on Saturday. I can't wait and I hope to get some help for Mylo. _ Dont waste time standing in linetry shopping online. Visit Sympatico / MSN Shopping today! http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca
Lucy
Has Lucy passed? t Hideyo Yamamoto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michelle has unsubscribed the list -- Michelled called me and I had a long conversation this afternoon, I have not read Michell's posting or other's postings regarding the topic. I feel very strongly that we are here to support each other and not to be judgemental and not to assume anything.. There was time, when I was losing my kitties one oafter the other, I felt really bad by some of the postings which I felt were judgmental and I decided not to share my problems with my kitties any more on the list -- judgment is the last thing we need when we are going through difficult times with our kitties. A topic of when to say good by is can be very controverrtial issue -- I am probably one of the last person to decide to euthanize a cat -- partly due to my religious belief and partly because, I don't feel right to do it == it does not mean I am selfish - just as I am not going to be convincing people when not to ,, I would like not to be told when to do either.. but I am never going to be judgmental when others due when they do from caring.. We just need to respect each other --I will continue to pray for Michelle and her previous baby, Lucy...' Hideyo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 6:02 PM To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: My Dearest Michelle Oh Michelle, I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine how awful it must be to be in the middle of this torment and feel like you have to stay away from the usual support of the list because we've hurt you even more. I'm so upset, I've been so upset right along side you throughout this. All I want to do is ease your burdens and help Lucy in whatever way I can and I'm falling so short of doing that. It sounds familiar, huh? Maybe I should take my own advice and stop struggling so hard to help fix things. I wasn't sure if I should write to you. I wasn't sure if any thing I had to say would be welcome. I've given you my phone number, I'm here supporting you day and night, even if you never pick up the phone. I don't want to intrude any more than I have, I just wanted you to know that I care and I'm so sorry for all you guys are going through. You asked how you would know what Lucy wants, how to know if she is ready ... That's part of the reason I've been so insistent about quieting yourself, quieting all the stress, you need to be quiet and still to hear her. The experience I had with Spencer will stay with me forever. That last day shared with him was full of love and magic. I've never been more connected in love with another being. It wasn't like I planned to call the vet when he could no longer hold up his head, until he was so exhausted that he no longer was able to move, I simply waited until I /knew/ he was ready. Until I knew we were through saying our goodbyes. It was sort of like seeing someone off at the railway terminal and even though their train isn't leaving for another couple of hours, it's still time to part, there's nothing more to say or experience, so you walk away with a hug and a kiss and tears running down your face. He truly seemed to be telling me, it's okay Mom, it's time for me to leave. From what you last described with Lucy, it doesn't sound like she's there yet. Only the three of you will know if she wants help crossing. No one else can tell you that. Trust the connection you share, you said that you have made arrangements if her suffering becomes too great, in the meantime bask in her companionship for as long as you can. It may seem ridiculous, but I'm still praying for miracles. I'm praying for you, Gray and Lucy to share the kind of intimacy that Spencer and I had. I'm praying for strength and comfort for you. I'm praying that you feel the love that so many people are sending your way to try and help you through this. Maybe it's not such a bad thing to go off list for a while. This time is sacred and I know you want to focus your attention on Lucy, if being on list causes you more anguish, or pulls your attention from Lucy in any way, then staying away from the computer may be what you need to do. With much love, Nina
Re: Lucy
No, at least I haven't heard that. I think when Hideyo typed previous, she meant precious. catatonya wrote: Has Lucy passed? t */Hideyo Yamamoto [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Michelle has unsubscribed the list -- Michelled called me and I had a long conversation this afternoon, I have not read Michell's posting or other's postings regarding the topic. I feel very strongly that we are here to support each other and not to be judgemental and not to assume anything.. There was time, when I was losing my kitties one oafter the other, I felt really bad by some of the postings which I felt were judgmental and I decided not to share my problems with my kitties any more on the list -- judgment is the last thing we need when we are going through difficult times with our kitties. A topic of when to say good by is can be very controverrtial issue -- I am probably one of the last person to decide to euthanize a cat -- partly due to my religious belief and partly because, I don't feel right to do it == it does not mean I am selfish - just as I am not going to be convincing people when not to ,, I would like not to be told when to do either.. but I am never going to be judgmental when others due when they do from caring.. We just need to respect each other --I will continue to pray for Michelle and her previous baby, Lucy...' Hideyo
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Patti, Congratulations on just getting through that night! I hope Bart checks out ok with the vet, and the bloating goes away. You are all in my prayers. Be CAREFUL out in the snow and ice. I hope the cold weather breaks soon. I don't remember where you live. But it sounds like the barn is insulated enough for Bart right now. Good luck with the two of them! tonya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know this is OT, but I have written about Bart Charity, my ferals to the list.. And off list to Nina Kerry.. The other night, we had a (short) blizzard here And, my room mate was off on an appt. I had to walk my dogs after feeding. (NOT easy, I am so afraid of slipping falling losing my K-9 babies). Anyway, after feeding, when I was out with my Rottie, I heard these sweet cat sounds - turns out it was my dear Charity, she has come around so much, and her talking sounded like she wanted my help. Well, my Rottie is deaf, and I am almost blind I couldn't see her, and (Lady)Bug couldn't hear her, but when Bug SAW her, BAM -- thought for sure I was going down. And Charity has no fear of dogs, so she proceeded to approach me And, Bug is STRONG, and even pulling her leash back, well, w/ all my problems, it was tough.. I finally got Bug back into house and went back out, into the blizzard, to see if I could get Charity.. I was out for over THREE hours! I was able to scruff her when in yard, but she freaked (NO claws!!! She has come a long way...). But, having hardly any use of my right arm, I had to let her go.. So, we decided to go out to barn.. And, while there, guess who comes out? BART I was shocked!! He had been in the blankets, etc. I have over crate, I guess trying to keep warm.. But, I was there w/ food, and he came out... By this time, over 3 hours, I had to sit down in my recliner to rest.. And, then, Charity, and Bart, come up, rub against my legs, so I figured the time was right!!! I reached down, scruffed Charity, then found out, she allowed me to just hold her... So, I had to make the long journey back to house, with her (peacefully) in my arms.. (I had closed the barn door, and left the food in the well-insulated crate for Bart) My main fear was Charity freaking once we got in house 'cause my dogs, 4 BIG, are very loud..They love cats, but, can act weird when a new one comes in. Thank heavens, after I gave them a talking-to when entering, none of them barked, got up, or did anything So, I got my Charity into a large crate and there she remains... (She was tested - negative, but that was over a year agoAnd w/ my Puma, recently being diagnosed w/ FIP toxo, well, I didn't want to expose any of my babies Charity will be re-tested, and we'll go from there...) Back to Bart. When I got back to barn, he was in crate, so I closed the door When I looked him over, well, now I am really concerned.. He is so bloated Thought maybe I got a diff. pregnant female, but, he still has his equipment... And, Bart, was always SO feral, I could never get close to him. Now, he allowed me to pet him, seemed to like it. But, while stroking him, I could feel his backbone.And other bones. Made me wonder just what his problem is. Also, his eyes are clouded, like cataracts or glaucoma (?). He also looks OLD. Probably is, he's been around here since I've been here...2 1/2 years now... So, I wormed him, and did not find anything in his feces...And, as bloated as he was, I figured if it was worms they'd be as big as a snake. But, NOTHINGI even used my magnifying glass. I worry now that maybe it's FIP. (A very recent topic on list lately.) I called my rescue partner she is going to get us a vet appt. But, before I neuter him, I am going to have him hospitalized 'til we get all the blood test results back.. Depending on what the results are, I will be faced w/ having to decide what to do. I do have another rescue buddy that has converted her barn into a shelter, w/ indiviual homes, I just don't know.. So, Bart is still in crate in barn.. It's very well insulated, and, when I was able, I had insulated parts of barn, filling cracks, etc. I just worry 'cause we're in a deep-freeze. He has a good bed, lots of thermals, and the crate is also insulated, w/ thermal on the outside... But, it's so cold and he's so old. He is eating, and I do venture out (slowly carefully) to feed and water him daily. One thing I noticed, his water only had a partial skim on top, not frozen thru. So, I guess the barn is pretty well insulated. Just pray we can get to vet early this week... I would have written sooner, but besides being over-whatever, my room mate was NOT too happy. But, I told him, da-m it, I survived the MVA 'cause I
Re: Lucy and unsubscribing
Please don't go Michelle, we all value your knowledge and input and want to be able to help you (whether by advice or just being an ear to hear) as you have helped so many of us. You having Gray there to be a 2nd pair of eyes is a blessing for YOU. Surely, you trust him to tell you if he thinks you're trying too hard to save Lucy. HIS and YOUR opinions and knowledge of Lucy are the best that exist and you have gone through the deaths of animal friends together before. And the making or not-making of the decision to assist. That said, I certainly see that a break from the list could be helpful to you and your state of mind. Would you be willing to just go No-Mail? GLOW to you and your family for strength, clarity and peace. Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile. - Anonymous - Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2007 6:49:31 PM Subject: Lucy and unsubscribing Since I last wrote, Lucy got up, climbed all 14 stairs to the upstairs, ate half a jar of baby food and a couple pieces of dry food, curled up on a cat bed, and is purring away as Gray pets her. When Gray poured the dry food for Patches, Lucy literally got up and ran over to it, trying to push Patched out of the way. I know she has FIP, or most likely does. I know there is no real cure and it will get her. But today does not seem to be the day, and I do not think it is selfish to decide that. Someone who can and wants to climb stairs, wants to eat (even if not a normal amount), wants company and pets, and can go running over to a bowl of food is, in my opinion, not asking to be killed. To whoever wrote that I should not do home euthanasia, I was not considering home euthanasia, I was considering, in an emergency if she gets in distress, tranquilizing her until a vet could come or we could get to a vet. i did that with Simon and he immediately slept and actually died in his sleep before we needed to. But it was not intended as euthanasia. I and several others on the list have also used oral valium to ease passings, and it has done so. I do not think this is irrational. I stopped reading posts after that and just deleted, to whoever wrote something in the subject line about allowing suffering. Given that I had just come downstairs from Lucy's little trek and eating spree, it seemed too ridiculous to read. This list has been a godsend for me at times, and I have made friendships with a few of you that I hope to continue offline from the group. But this group is not helping me right now and is actually upsetting me quite a bit. So I am unsubscribing. Nina and Hideyo, I hope to stay in touch with you individually, and anyone else who actually wants to, and to share ideas and emotional support. But I am done with the group. Michelle No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
Re: Rompi
Tonya, thank you for your thoughts. Yes, thanks to the advices from you all I succeeded in subscribing to the Feline Lymphoma and Feline Cancer groups. It results that I am no longer subscribed to Feline Anemia (!) although I regularly receive all the posts from that group (!). I am just afraid of un-subscribing and re-subscribing right away to Anemia (in order to reset the situation) because I feel that I would start receiving the same mail twice!!!... So, in the doubt... ;) Today I am trying to schedule a visit with the oncologist for tomorrow or thursday. I have even found a pharmacy that gets me pure L-Lysine and pure Dimethylglycine in powder, in 50 or 100 g cans, inexpensive, so Rompi is on both and on Omega3-EPA-DHA, doing great even if it's not a therapy but just a support. I remind to everybody that little O.T. of mine, posted saturday... ;) Michelle, please don't go: take a DEEP breath, but do not go. I feel so stupid. Sorry for running away but actually I have to run to work! Kisses to everybody Paolo
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Patti, you are an inspiration and an excellent example of mind over matter (or medicine). I agree w/MC about the recliner, that's awesome:) BTW, anyone want to borrow Bandit? Barb+Smoky the House Puma+El Bandito Malito My cat the clown: paying no mind to whom he should impress. Merely living his life, doing what pleases him, and making me smile. - Anonymous - Original Message From: TenHouseCats [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: felvtalk@felineleukemia.org Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2007 9:04:08 PM Subject: Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe W/ me!!! oh, great news! (warped person that i am, and fellow gimp, what struck me as most remarkable, is that you are wise enough to have a recliner in the barn for when you need it!) MC On 2/4/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know this is OT, but I have written about Bart Charity, my ferals to the list.. And off list to Nina Kerry.. The other night, we had a (short) blizzard here And, my room mate was off on an appt. I had to walk my dogs after feeding. (NOT easy, I am so afraid of slipping falling losing my K-9 babies). Anyway, after feeding, when I was out with my Rottie, I heard these sweet cat sounds - turns out it was my dear Charity, she has come around so much, and her talking sounded like she wanted my help. Well, my Rottie is deaf, and I am almost blind I couldn't see her, and (Lady)Bug couldn't hear her, but when Bug SAW her, BAM -- thought for sure I was going down. And Charity has no fear of dogs, so she proceeded to approach me And, Bug is STRONG, and even pulling her leash back, well, w/ all my problems, it was tough.. I finally got Bug back into house and went back out, into the blizzard, to see if I could get Charity.. I was out for over THREE hours! I was able to scruff her when in yard, but she freaked (NO claws!!! She has come a long way...). But, having hardly any use of my right arm, I had to let her go.. So, we decided to go out to barn.. And, while there, guess who comes out? BART I was shocked!! He had been in the blankets, etc. I have over crate, I guess trying to keep warm.. But, I was there w/ food, and he came out... By this time, over 3 hours, I had to sit down in my recliner to rest.. And, then, Charity, and Bart, come up, rub against my legs, so I figured the time was right!!! I reached down, scruffed Charity, then found out, she allowed me to just hold her... So, I had to make the long journey back to house, with her (peacefully) in my arms.. (I had closed the barn door, and left the food in the well-insulated crate for Bart) My main fear was Charity freaking once we got in house 'cause my dogs, 4 BIG, are very loud..They love cats, but, can act weird when a new one comes in. Thank heavens, after I gave them a talking-to when entering, none of them barked, got up, or did anything So, I got my Charity into a large crate and there she remains... (She was tested - negative, but that was over a year agoAnd w/ my Puma, recently being diagnosed w/ FIP toxo, well, I didn't want to expose any of my babies Charity will be re-tested, and we'll go from there...) Back to Bart. When I got back to barn, he was in crate, so I closed the door When I looked him over, well, now I am really concerned.. He is so bloated Thought maybe I got a diff. pregnant female, but, he still has his equipment... And, Bart, was always SO feral, I could never get close to him. Now, he allowed me to pet him, seemed to like it. But, while stroking him, I could feel his backbone.And other bones. Made me wonder just what his problem is. Also, his eyes are clouded, like cataracts or glaucoma (?). He also looks OLD. Probably is, he's been around here since I've been here...2 1/2 years now... So, I wormed him, and did not find anything in his feces...And, as bloated as he was, I figured if it was worms they'd be as big as a snake. But, NOTHINGI even used my magnifying glass. I worry now that maybe it's FIP. (A very recent topic on list lately.) I called my rescue partner she is going to get us a vet appt. But, before I neuter him, I am going to have him hospitalized 'til we get all the blood test results back.. Depending on what the results are, I will be faced w/ having to decide what to do. I do have another rescue buddy that has converted her barn into a shelter, w/ indiviual homes, I just don't know.. So, Bart is still in crate in barn.. It's very well insulated, and, when I was able, I had insulated parts of barn, filling cracks, etc. I just worry 'cause we're in a deep-freeze. He has a good bed, lots of thermals, and the crate is also insulated, w/ thermal on the outside... But, it's so cold and he's so old. He is eating, and I do venture
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Patty, You are so amazing and strong.
Re: OT: Bart Charty are now safe!!!! W/ me!!!
Patty, Bart Charity are blessed to have you so are we. You are such an inspiration. Please keep us up on there progress. I'm so happy they are out of the cold. Sheila
