Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Alex Romosan wrote: Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 01:19: as a matter of fact it does seem that european helicopters behave differently from american ones. Yes, you are right, sorry. I was slightly pissed, because if felt as if you needlessly dragged my country into the matter, only because we didn't agree on technical ground, as if you wanted to say that Austrians (unlike US citizens) do probably not understand much of helicopters. :-) i am not a us citizen and never will (even though i live in the us now) :-) i thought the same might apply to the collective. OK. It doesn't, as others have meanwhile explained. Anyway: I wasn't aware how difficult the bo is actually to fly with just the keyboard. Accidently, I installed fgfs today on a computer at a Red Cross office (for the people on duty to make time pass faster), and it took me *quite* a while to even lift of. (We don't have a js there ... yet.) I'll try to submit a fix tomorrow. I insist on the throttle being inverted on the js, but the keyboard is a different matter. There'll certainly be a viable solution. how about we just reverse the PageUp and PageDown keys (and also add the 1 and 2 key bindings) and get the helicopter to start with the throttle at 100% so it doesn't just take off on you when you start the rotor. this way nothing will change for the joystick users, and for those of us who use the keyboard the bindings will make more sense (up will make the helicopter go up and down will make it go down). what do you say? Sorry again :-] don't worry, it happens. --alex-- You know you can change your own keyboard settings however you like to override the default ones that come with fg, right? Just make your own ~/.fgfs/keyboard.xml file and put whatever changes you want in there. The pull:up/push:down convention on joysticks is pretty univesal, and the keyboard binding follow that. I don't think anyone would ever agree to change it in the defaults, but you're completely free to make permanent changes to your own setup. Josh ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Martin Spott -- Monday 09 August 2004 14:37: Alex Romosan wrote: [...] i use the keyboard mappings and a mouse to fly and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). which very much resembles the controls of a real heli ! A helicopter has sort of a parking brake handle to control the collective: Pulling the handle increases the collective angle of attack. I after updating from CVS I realized that the collective controls via the keyboard interface have changed and I must admit that I'm pretty much disappointed, Hmmm ... so was Erik. That makes 2:1 for the old (reversed) behavior. Any other votes? Personally, I do only insist on correct js behavior -- I don't care much about the keyboard behavior. I'll happily switch back. (All other helicopters should then be consistent with that.) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 - patch
I don't like the way this discussion goes by now. Because I'll finish the second fgfs heli soon, I want to show my point of view in this matter may to finish this argument soon, too...;-) If you choose an input modality which is closer to the reality - eg. using stick, pedals and a 'park-break-style' pitch lever - you are totally bound to its operational manner. Thus the pitch lever should be pulled towards your body to lift...this is the understanding of the heli controls of Melchior and others (body related movements). In contrast you can just only use the keyboard and have the freedom to map controls on keys 'til the doctor's coming. You can look on the keys and map controls due to key's meaning. But you are also able to map it in 'body-related-style'... Between these two extrema everybody have to choose his way of controlling a heli. For the ec130 I'll use the same mapping as Melchior for the bo105, but feel free to change it locally. Let's bury the hatchet and fly together! Regards Ron Alex Romosan schrieb: Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So far we have only one user who disagrees with realistic collective, so we might not even need a property. Just revert part of today's patch. :-) i am not the only one who disagrees with the realistic collective (but you can choose to ignore any messages you don't agree with). but to tell you the truth, i don't really care. i know enough to configure fgfs to do what _i_ want. one could argue that flying a helicopter using the keyboard is not realistic. nevertheless, i find it very confusing pressing PageUp to go down, and vice versa. also, i always use the HUD and to see the throttle indicator go down when i want to go up is one more source of confusion. sorry to have brought this up. --alex-- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 - patch
Melchior FRANZ said: * Jeff Sinsay -- Saturday 07 August 2004 16:28: Yes indeed, when looking from the top down American Helicopters rotate-counter clockwise, while European/Russian Helis rotate clockwise. Yes, that's widely known. But nobody would seriously assume that anywhere the collective lever is pushed down to raise, and pulled up to sink. And that's what we were talking about. And implying that Austria would do it that braindead way isn't exactly friendly. (And that's even ignoring the fact that the bo was mostly built in Germany.) But anyway. ;-) And I've yet to see a joystick that has a lever that pulls up! This should probably just default to what folks expect rather than pretending we've got a realistic solution. Maybe single property value that would cause the mapping to reverse (e.g. --invert-throttle-control-mapping) would make sense? Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 01:19: as a matter of fact it does seem that european helicopters behave differently from american ones. Yes, you are right, sorry. I was slightly pissed, because if felt as if you needlessly dragged my country into the matter, only because we didn't agree on technical ground, as if you wanted to say that Austrians (unlike US citizens) do probably not understand much of helicopters. :-) i thought the same might apply to the collective. OK. It doesn't, as others have meanwhile explained. Anyway: I wasn't aware how difficult the bo is actually to fly with just the keyboard. Accidently, I installed fgfs today on a computer at a Red Cross office (for the people on duty to make time pass faster), and it took me *quite* a while to even lift of. (We don't have a js there ... yet.) I'll try to submit a fix tomorrow. I insist on the throttle being inverted on the js, but the keyboard is a different matter. There'll certainly be a viable solution. Sorry again :-] m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 01:19: as a matter of fact it does seem that european helicopters behave differently from american ones. Yes, you are right, sorry. I was slightly pissed, because if felt as if you needlessly dragged my country into the matter, only because we didn't agree on technical ground, as if you wanted to say that Austrians (unlike US citizens) do probably not understand much of helicopters. :-) i am not a us citizen and never will (even though i live in the us now) :-) i thought the same might apply to the collective. OK. It doesn't, as others have meanwhile explained. Anyway: I wasn't aware how difficult the bo is actually to fly with just the keyboard. Accidently, I installed fgfs today on a computer at a Red Cross office (for the people on duty to make time pass faster), and it took me *quite* a while to even lift of. (We don't have a js there ... yet.) I'll try to submit a fix tomorrow. I insist on the throttle being inverted on the js, but the keyboard is a different matter. There'll certainly be a viable solution. how about we just reverse the PageUp and PageDown keys (and also add the 1 and 2 key bindings) and get the helicopter to start with the throttle at 100% so it doesn't just take off on you when you start the rotor. this way nothing will change for the joystick users, and for those of us who use the keyboard the bindings will make more sense (up will make the helicopter go up and down will make it go down). what do you say? Sorry again :-] don't worry, it happens. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Alex Romosan -- Friday 06 August 2004 21:31: and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). Yes, and that's the way it should be and there's no way in hell to have this changed. If you don't like how helicopters work, don't fly them. There are enough fixed wing aircrafts. PLEASE DON'T APPLY! also i find PageUp and PageDown to be cumbersome, so i mapped the collective to the 1 and 2 keys (so i can use my left hand). Collective is where all aircrafts have the throttle. That's because there's no alternative for the collective on joysticks other than the throttle. I don't mind *additional* keys for collective, though. http://caliban.lbl.gov/fgfs-heli/index.html On the positive side: nice screenshots! :-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Friday 06 August 2004 21:31: and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). Yes, and that's the way it should be and there's no way in hell to have this changed. If you don't like how helicopters work, don't fly them. There are enough fixed wing aircrafts. PLEASE DON'T APPLY! okay, then you should change the default so the helicopter starts with the collective up so the helicopter doesn't just take off once you start the rotor. as for the there's no way in hell to have this changed i beg to differ: i've already made the change in my local copy and i intend to keep that way :-) also i find PageUp and PageDown to be cumbersome, so i mapped the collective to the 1 and 2 keys (so i can use my left hand). Collective is where all aircrafts have the throttle. That's because there's no alternative for the collective on joysticks other than the throttle. I don't mind *additional* keys for collective, though. i am not sure what the collective has to do with the throttle. if i understand this correctly, the collective changes the pitch of the rotor blades. i thought helicopters don't have a throttle the way fixed wing aircraft do: i.e. the engine is always at a constant rpm. but then i am not a helicopter pilot so i might be wrong. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Friday 06 August 2004 21:31: and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). Yes, and that's the way it should be and there's no way in hell to have this changed. If you don't like how helicopters work, don't fly them. There are enough fixed wing aircrafts. PLEASE DON'T APPLY! one more thing. i just went to http://science.howstuffworks.com/helicopter6.htm and they have a video on how the collective control works (http://static.howstuffworks.com/mpeg/heli-collective.mpg). you can clearly hear the woman say that if you lift the collective you increase the pitch of the blades so you get more lift and you'll go up. so it would seem that collective up means helicopter goes up. maybe in austria they do it differently. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 00:28: okay, then you should change the default so the helicopter starts with the collective up so the helicopter doesn't just take off once you start the rotor. Yes, a solution for keyboarders would be desirable. But it may only influence the keyboard config, not the FDM settings! Overriding the PgDn PgUp keys with reversed meaning, and additionally defining 1 and 2 with the same meaning is fine with me. But the (FDM) throttle stays reversed! as for the there's no way in hell to have this changed i beg to differ: i've already made the change in my local copy and i intend to keep that way :-) Heh ... that's cheating! i am not sure what the collective has to do with the throttle. if i understand this correctly, the collective changes the pitch of the rotor blades. the main rotor blades, yes i thought helicopters don't have a throttle the way fixed wing aircraft do: i.e. the engine is always at a constant rpm. Wrong. Helicopters do have throttles. They are adjusted at startup and during flight. You see the normal operation range on the dual tacho. The bo105 does indeed not have a throttle yet. But it's important to use the throttle settings for the collective, as this is what the input system delivers for the js throttle lever (even if it's really used as a collective for the bo). but then i am not a helicopter pilot so i might be wrong. I'm no helicopter pilot, either. But the modeler and maintainer of the bo105. I care for its (joystick controlled) behavior. I don't care that much for keyboard hacks. (You won't ever get happy with a helicopter controlled only by a keyboard, anyway. It's bad enough if you don't have pedals. ;-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Alex Romosan wrote: Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Friday 06 August 2004 21:31: and i noticed that the collective is mapped backwards (up goes down and down goes up). Yes, and that's the way it should be and there's no way in hell to have this changed. If you don't like how helicopters work, don't fly them. There are enough fixed wing aircrafts. PLEASE DON'T APPLY! okay, then you should change the default so the helicopter starts with the collective up so the helicopter doesn't just take off once you start the rotor. as for the there's no way in hell to have this changed i beg to differ: i've already made the change in my local copy and i intend to keep that way :-) In helicopters, you push the collective to go down and pull to go up. PageUp is usually used to push, PageDown to pull. also i find PageUp and PageDown to be cumbersome, so i mapped the collective to the 1 and 2 keys (so i can use my left hand). Collective is where all aircrafts have the throttle. That's because there's no alternative for the collective on joysticks other than the throttle. I don't mind *additional* keys for collective, though. i am not sure what the collective has to do with the throttle. if i understand this correctly, the collective changes the pitch of the rotor blades. i thought helicopters don't have a throttle the way fixed wing aircraft do: i.e. the engine is always at a constant rpm. but then i am not a helicopter pilot so i might be wrong. The yasim model has constant rpm. It is the throttle axis ( joystick, keyboard or mouse ) that is mapped on the collective. If you look at a 4 axis joystick, you push the lever to go down and pull it to go up. On a fixed wing aircraft, you push to increase throttle and pull to decrease. So here is the rationale for this. If you invert the way the collective react to input, you will be at the opposite of the real thing. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 00:36: you can clearly hear the woman say that if you lift the collective you increase the pitch of the blades so you get more lift and you'll go up. so it would seem that collective up means helicopter goes up. maybe in austria they do it differently. Chauvinist bullshit ends every discussion, thanks. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
i am not sure what the collective has to do with the throttle. if i understand this correctly, the collective changes the pitch of the rotor blades. i thought helicopters don't have a throttle the way fixed wing aircraft do: i.e. the engine is always at a constant rpm. but then i am not a helicopter pilot so i might be wrong. the collective controls the pitch of the rotor blades, yes, but since the air drag increases with the pitch the throttle of the engine also have to be increased to hold the rotor rpm in 'the green arc' (eg. for the bo105 is it at 450 RPM) . This is made by a mechanical device called correlator, in some piston driven helis an electronic govenor prevents additionally rpm drops (due to the significant lower rpm of a piston engine, the engine would full stop, not so nice...). In Flight Simulators the collective is usually laid on the throttle due to the limitations of input devices (joysticks). Regards Ron ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Melchior FRANZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 00:36: you can clearly hear the woman say that if you lift the collective you increase the pitch of the blades so you get more lift and you'll go up. so it would seem that collective up means helicopter goes up. maybe in austria they do it differently. Chauvinist bullshit ends every discussion, thanks. as a matter of fact it does seem that european helicopters behave differently from american ones. http://www.helicopterpage.com/html/terms.html would seem to indicate the rotor spins in different directions. there is a nice description there of the takeoff procedure. the relevant passage is: As you increase collective pitch, you need to push the left pedal (In American helicopters...right pedal for non-American models) to counteract the torque you generate by increasing pitch. and on the page describing the forces at work http://www.helicopterpage.com/html/forces.html the author states: The thrust it produces tends to push the aircraft sideways at a hover. We compensate for this by adding left cyclic control inputs (On American Helicopters, the opposite in foreign manufactured aircraft, because their rotor systems turn the opposite way from ours). This makes the helicopter hang left skid, or wheel, low at a hover. so i am not sure why you are upset. i thought the same might apply to the collective. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
* Alex Romosan -- Saturday 07 August 2004 00:36: you can clearly hear the woman say that if you lift the collective you increase the pitch of the blades so you get more lift and you'll go up. so it would seem that collective up means helicopter goes up. maybe in austria they do it differently. Chauvinist bullshit ends every discussion, thanks. Ok, I'm lost here. All he was doing was explaining what the instructor on the video was saying. Loosen up and unbolt, will ya? Jeeze. :) g. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] Re: bo105 + patch
Jim Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Those photos are really are nice! Wow! Mind me asking what you took them with? i have a sony dsc-f717 digital camera (but now i want the dsc-f828 :-( ) the original pictures are 2560x1920 though. --alex-- -- | I believe the moment is at hand when, by a paranoiac and active | | advance of the mind, it will be possible (simultaneously with | | automatism and other passive states) to systematize confusion | | and thus to help to discredit completely the world of reality. | ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
