Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hello Thomas That makes lots of sence. Thank you for braking it down for me. bfn James -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:46 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi James, Ahem...We are talking about a text based user interface. You don't have Windows menus and such and first letter navigation would be impossible given the sheer size of the database of performers. You have to enter the number associated with the performer and then enter to select him/her from the list. Make sense? Cheers! On 8/29/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: hI there That is what I was thinking myself. I think first letter nav would be good for all those players. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Dark, Exactly my thoughts. Plus I've encountered some GUI applications that don't behave well with screen readers, but are still usable provided you know how to examine the screen, point and click on things, and get an overview of the layout without depending on links, buttons, and whatever else to give you structural layout by tabbing around or using arrow keys. Good screen review skills is essential and like you I think playing text only games has taught me to review the screen more rather than depending on graphical elements like tabs, buttons, menus, whatever else to figure out what is being presented on screen. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Fair enough on nvda, I suspect something was the case, since I know people have been playing around with smugglers 5 and nvda and having far better results than earlier games (after all back in 2008 when s3 was released nvda wasn't an option at all). I would say though console window applications have more of a bennifit for screen reader use than just themselves, even if you don't count various if interpreters (which of course work on multiple platforms). Since console windows have none of the links, coded headings or other shenanigans that lots of screen readers use when navigating webpages, they force people to interact with the text and just the text, and learning those commands can be valuable in many other applications where simply working by the predefined hotspots won't cut be enough, since there are obviously some screne readers (which again I shal not name), which work on presenting information to the user in a set format, rather than letting the user work his/her way around it. To give one example, in core exiles the inventory is rather complex to navigate with very many buttons and links since each inventory item has a variety of things you can do with it, eg, recycle, equip, sell etc. Some of this involves buttons for each item, some (such as view), are links, but the main information on quantity, type etc is just plane text, there doesn't even seem to be a major web heading. Thus, navigating by table and paragraph is by far the best way I've found myself to explore that particular list quickly and gain a full understanding of what is where. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Charles, Yes, that's it in a nutshell. Those skills should already be present, and if not it is really up to the end user to train himself/herself to get good with their screen reader. It really should not be the developer's place to write his/her entire program's interface to suit an end user who simply lacks skills with their screen reader. It is easier to train people to use their screen reader with a certain type of interface than to rewrite everything to make up for their lack of knowledge. Speaking of college or Olympic wrestling that's definitely a different ball of wax. A lot of amateur wrestling uses Greco-Roman style wrestling which is more about grapples, holds, and pins than is typical in professional wrestling. Professional wrestling is really a catch all sport by borrowing from many different fighting styles introducing kicks, chops, punches, throws, as well as more traditional holds and pins. In high school/amateur wrestling we generally don't see guys picking up their opponent and giving them a front powerslam to the mat, but that sort of thing is typical in professional wrestling. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I see your logic, and agree with it. If you have written it as a text game, then we should learn the skills that are already available to us in the form of screen review keys that come with our screen readers. We have the appropriate keys to do the job, we have the documentation to learn to use those keystrokes if we care to, and if we don't care to, then this would not be the game for us. But learning those skills can be valuable in other areas, so why not have fun learning them? The game is not one that I am interested in, as the only form of wrestling I would be interested in is something like high school, college, or Olympic wrestling, but that is a personal choice. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
I believe, the table will be your best bet, if you want them all to be on the one screen. Its really not difficult to navigate once you understand the layout, its a bit more reading, yes, but worthing it of you want that one screen list. On 8/29/13, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
I would rather have the selections fore accessible with less clutter and work for the gamer. I would go for option 2, because, if there are 60 to choose from, and you find it on the second screen of 20, there's no need to go further. Another possibility: If you know the one that you want, is it possible to use first letter navigation to locate it? Or control home or end to quickly navigate from top to bottom and then work from there using the up or down arrows ot tab and shift tab? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:13 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
I guess it all depends. One of my biggest issues is not being able to reread choices, especially in long lists and/or tables. Is there a way to review the choices the game gives ? I assume no arrow keys since you said it would be text. If it is possible to review these wrestler choices over again, then one screen would probably be better then a long vertical list. al -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:14 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi James, Yes, that is basically how I see it as well. It might take a bit more work to examine the screen, but all performers will be on the same screen and it shouldn't be too hard to navigate the screen once someone is familiar with the layout. It is even better with a braille display as you can view more than one option per line. Cheers! On 8/29/13, James Howard coldshadow...@gmail.com wrote: I believe, the table will be your best bet, if you want them all to be on the one screen. Its really not difficult to navigate once you understand the layout, its a bit more reading, yes, but worthing it of you want that one screen list. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
hI there That is what I was thinking myself. I think first letter nav would be good for all those players. bfn James -- From: Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:24 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface I would rather have the selections fore accessible with less clutter and work for the gamer. I would go for option 2, because, if there are 60 to choose from, and you find it on the second screen of 20, there's no need to go further. Another possibility: If you know the one that you want, is it possible to use first letter navigation to locate it? Or control home or end to quickly navigate from top to bottom and then work from there using the up or down arrows ot tab and shift tab? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:13 AM Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Al, Simply use your screen readers review cursor. With NVDA, for example, you could press shift+numpad-7 to go to the top of the screen and then use numpad-9 to read down the screen line by line. With Jaws go to Jaws cursor mode and use the numpad-arrows to look around the table. The point being you can't use the standard arrow keys to move around, that's true, but you can use your screen readers review cursor keys to explore the table as much as needed. This is true for any console or text based program. Hope this makes sense. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: I guess it all depends. One of my biggest issues is not being able to reread choices, especially in long lists and/or tables. Is there a way to review the choices the game gives ? I assume no arrow keys since you said it would be text. If it is possible to review these wrestler choices over again, then one screen would probably be better then a long vertical list. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi James, Ahem...We are talking about a text based user interface. You don't have Windows menus and such and first letter navigation would be impossible given the sheer size of the database of performers. You have to enter the number associated with the performer and then enter to select him/her from the list. Make sense? Cheers! On 8/29/13, James Bartlett jab8...@gmail.com wrote: hI there That is what I was thinking myself. I think first letter nav would be good for all those players. bfn James --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Tom. Personally I can work with both methods, and have done in text games before, but it seems there is a convenient halfway house that would make for both easy screen review and let people find a specific . performer very quickly. Have separate screens with vertical lists, but instead of saying screen one, performers 1-20 have the heading read screen one performers a-j ie, break up the screens into logical, alphabetical divisions like an encyclopedia. That means if I say wanted to play as The rock, I'll know he'd be in the screen labled s-z, since his name obviously begins with r, yet in reading the other screens I could have separate lines. Of course with the way supernova handles tables there isn't really an issue, indeed you can set sn to handle! tables as though they were a vertical list if you like, but having aan inteligeable screen division would seem to be a nice compromise. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 1:13 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Wow, thanks! That will help greatly. I kindo f assumed after the arrow keys that things wouldn't wrok right. I must sound stupid, but there it is. al -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 10:43 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Al, Simply use your screen readers review cursor. With NVDA, for example, you could press shift+numpad-7 to go to the top of the screen and then use numpad-9 to read down the screen line by line. With Jaws go to Jaws cursor mode and use the numpad-arrows to look around the table. The point being you can't use the standard arrow keys to move around, that's true, but you can use your screen readers review cursor keys to explore the table as much as needed. This is true for any console or text based program. Hope this makes sense. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: I guess it all depends. One of my biggest issues is not being able to reread choices, especially in long lists and/or tables. Is there a way to review the choices the game gives ? I assume no arrow keys since you said it would be text. If it is possible to review these wrestler choices over again, then one screen would probably be better then a long vertical list. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Charles, No, that simply would not be possible. What you are talking about would involve totally rewriting the game from scratch using a graphical user interface for Windows which is something I was hoping to avoid for simplicity's sake. Let me reiterate this game is primarily text based, a console program, similar to the Dos versions of Wrestling League Simulator and Piledriver in design except it has sounds and music as well as text. As such there are no arrow keys, no home or end keys, no tab key, no shift+tab, etc because in order to use those keys I'd have to create a window using a window manager, poll keyboard events from the operating system using DirectInput or SDL, blah, blah, blah. Simply put it can't be done without a total rewrite with a graphical user interface which is something I've considered, but am not in the favor of doing at this time seeing is this game is really far along in development. As to your point about option 2 again what you suggest wouldn't work. When the list of performers comes up all you can do is press enter to advance to the next screen. There is no way to just type in or enter the selection on that specific screen. You have to scroll through all the options before making your selection which is precisely why it is a pain. Although, I suppose if necessary I could rewrite it to press p to go to prior screen or n for next screen and enter the choices, but it doesn't seem like there is any advantage in doing that when I can simply put everything on the screen in a single table. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I would rather have the selections fore accessible with less clutter and work for the gamer. I would go for option 2, because, if there are 60 to choose from, and you find it on the second screen of 20, there's no need to go further. Another possibility: If you know the one that you want, is it possible to use first letter navigation to locate it? Or control home or end to quickly navigate from top to bottom and then work from there using the up or down arrows ot tab and shift tab? -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Dark, HmmMakes sense. I'll definitely keep that in mind because it does seem like a very logical way to organize performers. I was going to put them in alphabetical order anyway, but having two or three screens with performers ranked by alphabetical order could work out just as well in terms of quickly finding the performer someone wanted. So I'll keep that in mind. The only downside with your suggestion is you still must scroll through all 60 performers before you can enter your choice which isn't too cool. Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Personally I can work with both methods, and have done in text games before, but it seems there is a convenient halfway house that would make for both easy screen review and let people find a specific . performer very quickly. Have separate screens with vertical lists, but instead of saying screen one, performers 1-20 have the heading read screen one performers a-j ie, break up the screens into logical, alphabetical divisions like an encyclopedia. That means if I say wanted to play as The rock, I'll know he'd be in the screen labled s-z, since his name obviously begins with r, yet in reading the other screens I could have separate lines. Of course with the way supernova handles tables there isn't really an issue, indeed you can set sn to handle! tables as though they were a vertical list if you like, but having aan inteligeable screen division would seem to be a nice compromise. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
While console/text-based is good, and while corss platform might be an issue (?), would otherwise rather opt for something like a wx-based UI, offering something like a list box, and then people could also use first letter navigation to find a performer? But, otherwise, some form of search functionality/offering, or maybe something like page up/down? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 2:13 PM Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Al, Well, I wouldn't go as far to call you stupid, but I suspect your computer skills aren't what they could be. All you need is a little help and training to use your computer and screen reader better as you seem lacking in some basic skills when it comes to console programs. That's not too surprising as a lot of people have never used console programs, or have forgotten how to use them since Windows has spoiled everyone with graphical point and click user interfaces and truly accessible text based programs have gone the way of the dinosaur. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Wow, thanks! That will help greatly. I kindo f assumed after the arrow keys that things wouldn't wrok right. I must sound stupid, but there it is. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Jacob, HmmThat could work, but I am not too keen in rewriting the user interface from scratch to add WX support to the game. Seems to me if I were going to do something like that I'd be better off updating the game to use Pygame for the graphical user interface, for handling keyboard events, sound mixing, and could use PyTTSX for Sapi output. The impression I am getting from you and others is that I should really abandon the text based user interface altogether and go with a newer, more modern, graphical user interface with keyboard events and so on. I can do it, but it would be quite a bit of work rewriting the game which is why I have been reluctant to do it. However, if that is really and truly what people want I'll consider it. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za wrote: While console/text-based is good, and while corss platform might be an issue (?), would otherwise rather opt for something like a wx-based UI, offering something like a list box, and then people could also use first letter navigation to find a performer? But, otherwise, some form of search functionality/offering, or maybe something like page up/down? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Ok, so maybe that is all you really need to do. Just create a small guide with the program that details how to use it with the various screen readers. To me, that is a lot easier then trying to rewrite the whole thing with all the bells and whistles and it would also have the purpose of informing people on how to use other similar games. Win/win. al -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 11:29 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Al, Well, I wouldn't go as far to call you stupid, but I suspect your computer skills aren't what they could be. All you need is a little help and training to use your computer and screen reader better as you seem lacking in some basic skills when it comes to console programs. That's not too surprising as a lot of people have never used console programs, or have forgotten how to use them since Windows has spoiled everyone with graphical point and click user interfaces and truly accessible text based programs have gone the way of the dinosaur. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Wow, thanks! That will help greatly. I kindo f assumed after the arrow keys that things wouldn't wrok right. I must sound stupid, but there it is. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Tom. To be honest you'll always have that problem, whether you use one screen or many, since you'll still need to read through all the performers. Other than having some sort of search routine in the game where you could type a name and have a list of results displayed, I'm not sure if there is a way around that. This is one reason I suggested alphabetisation, since then at least you can find who you want a little quicker. Btw, this is where supernova's ability to find specific text on screen and jump straight to it is very useful, since however things are arranged just typing say hulk when I wanted hulk hogan I could find out what number he was fairly quickly, indeed I've done this before in text adventure games with large tables of information. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Dark, HmmMakes sense. I'll definitely keep that in mind because it does seem like a very logical way to organize performers. I was going to put them in alphabetical order anyway, but having two or three screens with performers ranked by alphabetical order could work out just as well in terms of quickly finding the performer someone wanted. So I'll keep that in mind. The only downside with your suggestion is you still must scroll through all 60 performers before you can enter your choice which isn't too cool. Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Personally I can work with both methods, and have done in text games before, but it seems there is a convenient halfway house that would make for both easy screen review and let people find a specific . performer very quickly. Have separate screens with vertical lists, but instead of saying screen one, performers 1-20 have the heading read screen one performers a-j ie, break up the screens into logical, alphabetical divisions like an encyclopedia. That means if I say wanted to play as The rock, I'll know he'd be in the screen labled s-z, since his name obviously begins with r, yet in reading the other screens I could have separate lines. Of course with the way supernova handles tables there isn't really an issue, indeed you can set sn to handle! tables as though they were a vertical list if you like, but having aan inteligeable screen division would seem to be a nice compromise. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Create a separate text file containing all the different combatants, and then you can organize the screen however you want; just make sure the user knows the file exists. That way, if they want to use the in-game screen they can, or they've got a handy reference guide as well. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date sent: Thu, 29 Aug 2013 08:13:57 -0400 Subject: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi everyone, I have a quick question I thought I'd throw out here to the community to see what you thought about this. As many of you know for a while now I have been developing a WWE wrestling game in Python, that is largely text based, but one problem is not all the performers can fit on the same screen when selecting the challenger or the opponent for the match. As the database of male and female performers grows this problem will only get worse. Now, there are two ways of handling this issue. The way a sighted developer would handle this is they would table all the options on the screen into columns and rows rather than put them in a vertical list like this. Select the challenger. 1. Steve Austin 2. Daniel Bryan 3. John Cena 4. Christian 5. Ted DiBiase Jr. 6. Edge 7. Mark Henry 8. Kane Now, obviously the advantage of doing it this way is I could conceivably squeeze a huge database of performers onto a single screen simply by placing them into a table instead of a vertical list. I should be able to place somewhere between 50 and 60 performers onto a single screen. My concern though is that it will take more work reviewing the screen to find the option for the performer you want to play as you'd basically have to examine the entire table to find out that a certain performer is number 36 out of 50 possibilities. The alternative is I could create a vertical list of performers, but split it up over several screens. That means if a database of challengers had 60 performers you would get the first 20, press enter, see the next 20, press enter again, and get the last 20 performers. In some aspect sits more accessible, but I don't like it because I'd rather see as many performers as possible on the same screen. So any thoughts, suggestions, or ideas? Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Oh please not another rewrite! Myself, I'm quite happy with console windows, indeed I might suggest to people that it is actually a useful skill to have, especially if you want to play say interactive fiction, heck, I've even seen the skills I picked up i navigating tables, understanding lists of information and quickly switching to in put text be useful in playing comparatively modern web based games such as puppet nightmares. Not that I have anything against a windows interface, using sapi etc, but I don't really see it as worth the rewrite if the thing is already done, and to be perfectly honest seeing yet another! usa title go into rewrite at community behest would be more than a little depressing for those like me who just want to dam well see a completed and playable game! Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Jacob, HmmThat could work, but I am not too keen in rewriting the user interface from scratch to add WX support to the game. Seems to me if I were going to do something like that I'd be better off updating the game to use Pygame for the graphical user interface, for handling keyboard events, sound mixing, and could use PyTTSX for Sapi output. The impression I am getting from you and others is that I should really abandon the text based user interface altogether and go with a newer, more modern, graphical user interface with keyboard events and so on. I can do it, but it would be quite a bit of work rewriting the game which is why I have been reluctant to do it. However, if that is really and truly what people want I'll consider it. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Jacob Kruger ja...@blindza.co.za wrote: While console/text-based is good, and while corss platform might be an issue (?), would otherwise rather opt for something like a wx-based UI, offering something like a list box, and then people could also use first letter navigation to find a performer? But, otherwise, some form of search functionality/offering, or maybe something like page up/down? Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Dark, LOL! My thoughts exactly. Not only do I agree with the points you made below, but rewriting the game to have a modern graphical user interface would totally defeat the purpose of why I wrote Slam as a text based console game in the first place. The main reason behind writing it as a console game is because unlike Windows users I still play a lot of console based games on Linux using a screen reader called Speakup. Since Speakup works really well with console applications I see no need to have a fancy graphical user interface when text is all I really need for speech output. Plus I have already tested with NVDA, a demo of Jaws, etc and its equally accessible if the person knows how to use their review cursor. Finally, I now am focused on creating universally accessible games for Windows, Mac, Linux, etc and as we all know the more graphical we get the less accessible and more complicated it gets in turn. So text based was for me the best user interface possible for insuring universal accessibility. To give you an example of how accessible this thing is on Linux if someone is deaf-blind and uses BrailleTTY it works just fine with that screen reader. If they are blind and use Speakup they can use that. It also works with Orca both speech and braille under Gnome, but is slightly less friendly than the other options just because Orca's terminal support isn't as good as it could be. On Windows it works fine with NVDA 2013, seems to work okay with the Jaws 14 demo, and probably works okay with Window-Eyes too.If someone sighted wants to play it they can do it just by reading the text on the screen. The point being just by ignoring all that graphical user interface stuff I have saved myself time, complication, and have created a game that is for the most part accessible out of the box with any screen reader for just about any platform. So that is why I wrote it as a console program. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Oh please not another rewrite! Myself, I'm quite happy with console windows, indeed I might suggest to people that it is actually a useful skill to have, especially if you want to play say interactive fiction, heck, I've even seen the skills I picked up i navigating tables, understanding lists of information and quickly switching to in put text be useful in playing comparatively modern web based games such as puppet nightmares. Not that I have anything against a windows interface, using sapi etc, but I don't really see it as worth the rewrite if the thing is already done, and to be perfectly honest seeing yet another! usa title go into rewrite at community behest would be more than a little depressing for those like me who just want to dam well see a completed and playable game! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Dark, That's actually one very good reason to put everything into a table on one single screen. Almost every screen reader I know of has some sort of find/search feature that will help someone search for text on the screen. In NVDA, for example, it is insert+control+f in desktop mode and capslock+control+f in laptop mode. A dialog comes up, you type in the text you want, and NVDA will move the review cursor to that spot on the screen if found.So examining this table of performers wouldn't be that hard using the screen reader's find or search command. That feature wouldn't work if it was split up over multiple screens. Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. To be honest you'll always have that problem, whether you use one screen or many, since you'll still need to read through all the performers. Other than having some sort of search routine in the game where you could type a name and have a list of results displayed, I'm not sure if there is a way around that. This is one reason I suggested alphabetisation, since then at least you can find who you want a little quicker. Btw, this is where supernova's ability to find specific text on screen and jump straight to it is very useful, since however things are arranged just typing say hulk when I wanted hulk hogan I could find out what number he was fairly quickly, indeed I've done this before in text adventure games with large tables of information. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Al, Perhaps. I agree writing a tutorial or guide on how to use the game with the various screen readers would be easier than a rewrite. The only problem with that is I am not familiar with every single screen reader on the planet so couldn't tell someone how to use say Supernova with the game as I know absolutely zilch about that screen reader. I know how to use NVDA, because I use it all the time. I know Orca quite well because I use it everyday too. I know Jaws fairly well, because I used it for years before changing screen readers. However, I can not write a guide for a screen reader I have never used, and besides all the documentation should be available in your screen reader documentation already. If a person knows how to use their review cursor wether it is called the mouse cursor, Jaws Cursor, review cursor, whatever that's all you really need to know to review the text on the screen anyway. Plus as Dark pointed out most screen readers have a find command that will allow you to look for text on screen as well which would help in certain instances of a large table of names or moves, etc.. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Ok, so maybe that is all you really need to do. Just create a small guide with the program that details how to use it with the various screen readers. To me, that is a lot easier then trying to rewrite the whole thing with all the bells and whistles and it would also have the purpose of informing people on how to use other similar games. Win/win. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Thomas, Question for clarification here, if I may. :) Is the game in a playable state at the moment, or are we talking hypotheticals? I’d love to give it a try on my Mac if it’s playable, VoiceOver terminal support isn’t great but should work well enough for this. Thanks, Zack. On Aug 29, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Al, Perhaps. I agree writing a tutorial or guide on how to use the game with the various screen readers would be easier than a rewrite. The only problem with that is I am not familiar with every single screen reader on the planet so couldn't tell someone how to use say Supernova with the game as I know absolutely zilch about that screen reader. I know how to use NVDA, because I use it all the time. I know Orca quite well because I use it everyday too. I know Jaws fairly well, because I used it for years before changing screen readers. However, I can not write a guide for a screen reader I have never used, and besides all the documentation should be available in your screen reader documentation already. If a person knows how to use their review cursor wether it is called the mouse cursor, Jaws Cursor, review cursor, whatever that's all you really need to know to review the text on the screen anyway. Plus as Dark pointed out most screen readers have a find command that will allow you to look for text on screen as well which would help in certain instances of a large table of names or moves, etc.. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Ok, so maybe that is all you really need to do. Just create a small guide with the program that details how to use it with the various screen readers. To me, that is a lot easier then trying to rewrite the whole thing with all the bells and whistles and it would also have the purpose of informing people on how to use other similar games. Win/win. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Tom. Well as you know, supernova's screen review curser is one of it's strengths, and indeed I myself lernt more about functionality by playing if and even things like winfrotz with it. While I understand the reluctance of people who are just used to straight off windows interfaces with menues, listboxes etc, In one sense I do find it a little ironic, that people need a more complex interface than plane text for screen reading! software :d. Also, as I said I do believe there are still useful skills to be gained from navigating that sort of interface. for example, the first time in supernova I ever learnt to use the skip paragraph key was for getting to the previous text entry prompt in wintads, so that I could read the consequences of the last command I entered. I now use skip paragrpah all the time, when text editing, when reading mails, on the net etc, however had I just relied upon the tab key and auto speaking I'd have never found it. The only issue I can see is with nvda, since I do remember in previous discussions we've had about interactive fiction interfaces and menues you mentioning that the nvda virtual curser navigation wasn't as advanced as supernova or other commercial screen readers, though equally that is something likely to improve in the future. All the best, Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Dark, LOL! My thoughts exactly. Not only do I agree with the points you made below, but rewriting the game to have a modern graphical user interface would totally defeat the purpose of why I wrote Slam as a text based console game in the first place. The main reason behind writing it as a console game is because unlike Windows users I still play a lot of console based games on Linux using a screen reader called Speakup. Since Speakup works really well with console applications I see no need to have a fancy graphical user interface when text is all I really need for speech output. Plus I have already tested with NVDA, a demo of Jaws, etc and its equally accessible if the person knows how to use their review cursor. Finally, I now am focused on creating universally accessible games for Windows, Mac, Linux, etc and as we all know the more graphical we get the less accessible and more complicated it gets in turn. So text based was for me the best user interface possible for insuring universal accessibility. To give you an example of how accessible this thing is on Linux if someone is deaf-blind and uses BrailleTTY it works just fine with that screen reader. If they are blind and use Speakup they can use that. It also works with Orca both speech and braille under Gnome, but is slightly less friendly than the other options just because Orca's terminal support isn't as good as it could be. On Windows it works fine with NVDA 2013, seems to work okay with the Jaws 14 demo, and probably works okay with Window-Eyes too.If someone sighted wants to play it they can do it just by reading the text on the screen. The point being just by ignoring all that graphical user interface stuff I have saved myself time, complication, and have created a game that is for the most part accessible out of the box with any screen reader for just about any platform. So that is why I wrote it as a console program. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Oh please not another rewrite! Myself, I'm quite happy with console windows, indeed I might suggest to people that it is actually a useful skill to have, especially if you want to play say interactive fiction, heck, I've even seen the skills I picked up i navigating tables, understanding lists of information and quickly switching to in put text be useful in playing comparatively modern web based games such as puppet nightmares. Not that I have anything against a windows interface, using sapi etc, but I don't really see it as worth the rewrite if the thing is already done, and to be perfectly honest seeing yet another! usa title go into rewrite at community behest would be more than a little depressing for those like me who just want to dam well see a completed and playable game! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
I agree. A table would be easy once you got used to it. Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:41 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Dark, That's actually one very good reason to put everything into a table on one single screen. Almost every screen reader I know of has some sort of find/search feature that will help someone search for text on the screen. In NVDA, for example, it is insert+control+f in desktop mode and capslock+control+f in laptop mode. A dialog comes up, you type in the text you want, and NVDA will move the review cursor to that spot on the screen if found.So examining this table of performers wouldn't be that hard using the screen reader's find or search command. That feature wouldn't work if it was split up over multiple screens. Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. To be honest you'll always have that problem, whether you use one screen or many, since you'll still need to read through all the performers. Other than having some sort of search routine in the game where you could type a name and have a list of results displayed, I'm not sure if there is a way around that. This is one reason I suggested alphabetisation, since then at least you can find who you want a little quicker. Btw, this is where supernova's ability to find specific text on screen and jump straight to it is very useful, since however things are arranged just typing say hulk when I wanted hulk hogan I could find out what number he was fairly quickly, indeed I've done this before in text adventure games with large tables of information. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi I don't think you should waste your time using a graphical interface. It'll cause you work and I think it would be easier using the table system. I think you should make things as easy for yourself as possible smiles. Amanda -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 9:33 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Dark, LOL! My thoughts exactly. Not only do I agree with the points you made below, but rewriting the game to have a modern graphical user interface would totally defeat the purpose of why I wrote Slam as a text based console game in the first place. The main reason behind writing it as a console game is because unlike Windows users I still play a lot of console based games on Linux using a screen reader called Speakup. Since Speakup works really well with console applications I see no need to have a fancy graphical user interface when text is all I really need for speech output. Plus I have already tested with NVDA, a demo of Jaws, etc and its equally accessible if the person knows how to use their review cursor. Finally, I now am focused on creating universally accessible games for Windows, Mac, Linux, etc and as we all know the more graphical we get the less accessible and more complicated it gets in turn. So text based was for me the best user interface possible for insuring universal accessibility. To give you an example of how accessible this thing is on Linux if someone is deaf-blind and uses BrailleTTY it works just fine with that screen reader. If they are blind and use Speakup they can use that. It also works with Orca both speech and braille under Gnome, but is slightly less friendly than the other options just because Orca's terminal support isn't as good as it could be. On Windows it works fine with NVDA 2013, seems to work okay with the Jaws 14 demo, and probably works okay with Window-Eyes too.If someone sighted wants to play it they can do it just by reading the text on the screen. The point being just by ignoring all that graphical user interface stuff I have saved myself time, complication, and have created a game that is for the most part accessible out of the box with any screen reader for just about any platform. So that is why I wrote it as a console program. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Oh please not another rewrite! Myself, I'm quite happy with console windows, indeed I might suggest to people that it is actually a useful skill to have, especially if you want to play say interactive fiction, heck, I've even seen the skills I picked up i navigating tables, understanding lists of information and quickly switching to in put text be useful in playing comparatively modern web based games such as puppet nightmares. Not that I have anything against a windows interface, using sapi etc, but I don't really see it as worth the rewrite if the thing is already done, and to be perfectly honest seeing yet another! usa title go into rewrite at community behest would be more than a little depressing for those like me who just want to dam well see a completed and playable game! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Dark, I agree learning how to use console programs with your screen reader of choice is a necessary skill seeing as so many accessible games exist that run in a command prompt window. We have Eamon Deluxe, there are games for the Frotz interpreter, the Tads interpreter, Scare Adrift interpreter, and who knows how many other accessible games there out there that were written for Dos that will still work on an XP system in a command prompt window. It would be a good idea for Windows users to get a little more familiar with their screen readers as the interface is accessible, but perhaps they need to learn more about reviewing the screen without relying on the tab key or arrow keys to look around. :D Regarding NVDA that is a perfect case in point.. Actually, NVDA's review cursor is as good as any other screen reader's, but when I said it wasn't as good as Supernova's I was unfamiliar with a couple of commands like shift+numpad-7 to go to the top of the screen and so on at the time. It was because I was playing games like Piledriver and Wrestling League Simulator among others how I asked how to do this and that and found out NVDA has the same review commands as Jaws, Window-Eyes, whatever, but until I played Dos games had no reason to look up those commands. So chuck up my prior statements to lack of experience with the screen reader. In some sense NVDA has become a lot better than it was clear back when I made that statement, because as of NVDA 2013.1 it works with touchscreens on Windows 8 and that is one more advantage it has over a few other screen readers I shall leave nameless here. So being able to review the screen with your touchscreen should be kind of cool. Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Well as you know, supernova's screen review curser is one of it's strengths, and indeed I myself lernt more about functionality by playing if and even things like winfrotz with it. While I understand the reluctance of people who are just used to straight off windows interfaces with menues, listboxes etc, In one sense I do find it a little ironic, that people need a more complex interface than plane text for screen reading! software :d. Also, as I said I do believe there are still useful skills to be gained from navigating that sort of interface. for example, the first time in supernova I ever learnt to use the skip paragraph key was for getting to the previous text entry prompt in wintads, so that I could read the consequences of the last command I entered. I now use skip paragrpah all the time, when text editing, when reading mails, on the net etc, however had I just relied upon the tab key and auto speaking I'd have never found it. The only issue I can see is with nvda, since I do remember in previous discussions we've had about interactive fiction interfaces and menues you mentioning that the nvda virtual curser navigation wasn't as advanced as supernova or other commercial screen readers, though equally that is something likely to improve in the future. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Zachary, At the moment the game isn't in a playable state, because I had the game pretty far along in development, ended up losing the code, and had to start over from scratch. That said, I am not speaking hypothetically either as I have gotten a long ways into the rewrite. I have all of the major classes rewritten, most of the menus written, and that sort of thing done but still have to add all the performers to the game's database which is why I asked how people would like to have them displayed when setting up the match and so forth. I'm getting near a playable game and should have something playable in the not too distant future once I add some wrestlers to the game, and debug the game play itself. However, I will definitely let the list know when I have something playable as I'll be looking for beta testers from all three of the intended platforms. This is my first fully cross-platform game, discounting the little Blackjack game I wrote a couple of years back, and I am using this as a testbed application for more cross-platform games written in Python and Pygame. Cheers! On 8/29/13, Zachary Kline zkl...@speedpost.net wrote: Hi Thomas, Question for clarification here, if I may. :) Is the game in a playable state at the moment, or are we talking hypotheticals? I’d love to give it a try on my Mac if it’s playable, VoiceOver terminal support isn’t great but should work well enough for this. Thanks, Zack. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
Hi Tom. Fair enough on nvda, I suspect something was the case, since I know people have been playing around with smugglers 5 and nvda and having far better results than earlier games (after all back in 2008 when s3 was released nvda wasn't an option at all). I would say though console window applications have more of a bennifit for screen reader use than just themselves, even if you don't count various if interpreters (which of course work on multiple platforms). Since console windows have none of the links, coded headings or other shenanigans that lots of screen readers use when navigating webpages, they force people to interact with the text and just the text, and learning those commands can be valuable in many other applications where simply working by the predefined hotspots won't cut be enough, since there are obviously some screne readers (which again I shal not name), which work on presenting information to the user in a set format, rather than letting the user work his/her way around it. To give one example, in core exiles the inventory is rather complex to navigate with very many buttons and links since each inventory item has a variety of things you can do with it, eg, recycle, equip, sell etc. Some of this involves buttons for each item, some (such as view), are links, but the main information on quantity, type etc is just plane text, there doesn't even seem to be a major web heading. Thus, navigating by table and paragraph is by far the best way I've found myself to explore that particular list quickly and gain a full understanding of what is where. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface
I see your logic, and agree with it. If you have written it as a text game, then we should learn the skills that are already available to us in the form of screen review keys that come with our screen readers. We have the appropriate keys to do the job, we have the documentation to learn to use those keystrokes if we care to, and if we don't care to, then this would not be the game for us. But learning those skills can be valuable in other areas, so why not have fun learning them? The game is not one that I am interested in, as the only form of wrestling I would be interested in is something like high school, college, or Olympic wrestling, but that is a personal choice. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 3:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] A Question About the Best user Interface Hi Dark, LOL! My thoughts exactly. Not only do I agree with the points you made below, but rewriting the game to have a modern graphical user interface would totally defeat the purpose of why I wrote Slam as a text based console game in the first place. The main reason behind writing it as a console game is because unlike Windows users I still play a lot of console based games on Linux using a screen reader called Speakup. Since Speakup works really well with console applications I see no need to have a fancy graphical user interface when text is all I really need for speech output. Plus I have already tested with NVDA, a demo of Jaws, etc and its equally accessible if the person knows how to use their review cursor. Finally, I now am focused on creating universally accessible games for Windows, Mac, Linux, etc and as we all know the more graphical we get the less accessible and more complicated it gets in turn. So text based was for me the best user interface possible for insuring universal accessibility. To give you an example of how accessible this thing is on Linux if someone is deaf-blind and uses BrailleTTY it works just fine with that screen reader. If they are blind and use Speakup they can use that. It also works with Orca both speech and braille under Gnome, but is slightly less friendly than the other options just because Orca's terminal support isn't as good as it could be. On Windows it works fine with NVDA 2013, seems to work okay with the Jaws 14 demo, and probably works okay with Window-Eyes too.If someone sighted wants to play it they can do it just by reading the text on the screen. The point being just by ignoring all that graphical user interface stuff I have saved myself time, complication, and have created a game that is for the most part accessible out of the box with any screen reader for just about any platform. So that is why I wrote it as a console program. :D Cheers! On 8/29/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Oh please not another rewrite! Myself, I'm quite happy with console windows, indeed I might suggest to people that it is actually a useful skill to have, especially if you want to play say interactive fiction, heck, I've even seen the skills I picked up i navigating tables, understanding lists of information and quickly switching to in put text be useful in playing comparatively modern web based games such as puppet nightmares. Not that I have anything against a windows interface, using sapi etc, but I don't really see it as worth the rewrite if the thing is already done, and to be perfectly honest seeing yet another! usa title go into rewrite at community behest would be more than a little depressing for those like me who just want to dam well see a completed and playable game! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
