calendar splitting (was Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??)
Jeff Prickett wrote: Scott Sanders wrote: Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) Good point, I would accept that place as a home for the back end objects. Possibly split iCalendar between JAMES and Jetspeed or make it its own module that plugs in to either. Front end - Jetspeed, Back end JAMES. I would like to see Apache create an Exchange killer, but that talk is premature :). Maybe too late to jump in here, but I see it today :( I think the best thing to do would be to have a standalone calendar backend, communicating with James as transport, and with Jetspeed (and also beans for Velocity and even JSP), for server side front end. An applet could do a client side processor if this is wanted/needed. Jetspeed can do with a calendaring portlet (which is not written, BTW), that could take calendar objects using whichever transport It makes more sense to home the calendar project in James, IMO, than in Jetspeed, specially now that standard wars will begin ;) But I think Jetspeed people will not opose to have you there either. I will present myself also. I'm Santiago Gala, working in Jetspeed. I decided that I was too misinformed about apache stuff and I have decided to subscribe (not read in archives) to force myself to read general apache related lists. Being the typical bottom-up person, I start with jakarta-general. :) Hi to all, Santiago -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: calendar splitting (was Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??)
I think the best thing to do would be to have a standalone calendar backend, communicating with James as transport, As a James commiter I can see this as being a sensible route, James exposes the Mailet API which would provide hooks into the mail system for icalendar, or indeed any other mail oriented application. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On 1/29/02 3:31 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be at the top level of Jakarta? Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it. WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta? Ever heard of grouping, trees and things like this? Could be useful.. Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose. I think this is almost a textbook troll 'Almost' because I have sympathetic feelings (not about ECS, but about scope creep...) Even if we grouped them, ECS would still be a top level project - it would just then be a top level project in a group. A little progress *has* been made in this area - Ted did group the projects into buckets on the Jakarta home page, which might help people trying to figure out what we are about... geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Now what do we do? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
29.01.2002 09:31:16, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How is it possible that such a small, little, tiny project happens to be at the top level of Jakarta? Ahh.. Jon Stevens.. There we have it. WHY are there so many small, little tiny projects at the top of Jakarta? Ever heard of grouping, trees and things like this? Could be useful.. Really weird. Probably can't blame Jon Stevens for all of them, I suppose. Even though the tone of this mail is totally inappropriate... I think that especially the Jakarta Regexp package would be a good candidate for migrating into Jakarta-Commons, considering its size and common use across many projects. I'm neither a contributor nor a direct user of the Regexp package, but exposing it as a sub-project on the same level as Turbine, Tomcat, Struts etc. does indeed seem a bit too much. Just a thought. -chris ___ /=/ cmlenz at gmx.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On 1/29/02 6:32 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit to flame-baitish, yes yes.. But there are two things in that mail: 1) Why not do some grouping of the projects in Jakarta? ( 1b) Maybe not all projects in Jakarta are of the identical importance? Well, not sure if it's 'importance'. I think the smallest suggestion to the README.txt of the smallest unofficial commons-sandbox component deserves the same respect as any other contribution. We recognize that there is a distinction between 'top level projects' and things that aren't - that was part of the motivation for the Jakarta Commons project. However, that's just packaging and community organization - nothing about 'rank'. I would suppose that the most important project of Jakarta is Tomcat. Maybe at one point. And most likely now also, given whatever metric you judge it by - such as # of downloads, traffic on lists, etc. But times change ;) After that there is definately a lot to argue about, so why not instead try to group the projects a bit. I see that some work is done with the frontpage, but the directory should also have some tune-over.) What's the point? They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories. Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve? That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need to address on the website, I think. 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice, thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just takes a cvs commit. Even top level. No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. That's it. I can offer patches to any of the others, but like anyone else, I need to demonstrate interest, commitment, and competence before the community grants me commit privs to their CVS. It's up to the individual community. It helps that I am an existing jakarta guy - it shows that I 'get it' when it comes to the Jakarta-way (or other people think I do :) One of my responsibilities as a PMC member is covering Jmeter (for licensing and community issues), and I have no commit rights there - I am just another list lurker... The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of jakarta, I have no special privs. And I think that is the right way, BTW. While if fantastically cool projects that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible. Come on. This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI. (And as I thought we were large enough before POI, we are certainly large enough now :) What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than everybody elses.) Nope. Some of us just tend to listen to him... -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On 1/29/02 7:02 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What's the point? | | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories. | | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve? Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all about. Browsing it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in there. | | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need | to address on the website, I think. Yes. Good. We agree :) | | | 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice, | thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just | takes a cvs commit. Even top level. | | No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. That's it. I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have some control over the community. Example? Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback. [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of | jakarta, I have no special privs. And I think that is the right way, | BTW. I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now.. People from the outside is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?.. Ok, that's 5 minutes response time, it's now in place. Can you offer an example? | While if fantastically cool projects | that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible. | | Come on. This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI. How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to ECS? Don't know about ECS - that was something from java.apache.org days, I think, and I suspect just grandfathered in. Seems right to me. And I am not saying that because I am a jakarta guy, or Jon is my friend, or anything like that. In the evolution of Jakarta, java.apache.org came before - it makes sense to keep the continuity. | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here. Both are in... What is the argument again? | (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than | everybody elses.) | | Nope. Some of us just tend to listen to him... I know. As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of Jakarta? If a project dies, that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something like this, does it die away from Jakarta too? It seems to - look at the calendar project :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we destroy - Ada Louise Huxtable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
You soon got me cornered here now..! | | 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice, | | thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just | | takes a cvs commit. Even top level. | | | | No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and | | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. That's it. | | I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a | project accepted at Jakarta if you already have some control over the | community. | | Example? Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback. At least heavy from Jon, as I remember it. | People from the outside is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask | whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, | while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says yo, dudes, what about me | stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?.. Ok, that's 5 minutes | response time, it's now in place. | | Can you offer an example? I tried to find information on some of the projects pages, but it didn't say this project was initiaded by.. So I guess I have to search a lot of archives to find authoriative sources. Velocity? ECS? (I'm not quite sure..) vs. BCEL and POI. | | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? | | BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here. | | Both are in... What is the argument again? The hassle and noise. The problem are all the cool projects that don't bother to get hassled and rejected by Jon or other community members, so they don't even send the are you interested? email to this list.. Jakarta could be an even more important community than it is. | As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of Jakarta? If a | project dies, that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something | like this, does it die away from Jakarta too? | | It seems to - look at the calendar project :) My idea is that if projects are accepted if they have such and such big community and committed coders and what not, then they should also probably be de-cepted if they loose these requirements. The difference between Apache and the others are that you know that Apache and Jakarta projects are good, because there are stringent requirements to be such a project. That doesn't mean that Apache couldn't have a whole bunch more of projects going, as long as they were managed quite thight. ( I don't know if things have changed, but e.g. last time I tried JMeter, it didn't live up to what it said it would. Maybe a project shouldn't be on the page before it lived up to the Apache standard, which is the best stuff available. Maybe there shouldn't be beta stuff available on the front page at all, you'd have to go to another page to find things that are in development..? ) Well.. I don't know if I have much more to say now. Geir, you're probably right, I'm just full of crap right now... I just got frustrated when reading the front page of Jakarta, reading about the small (unimportant, in my view) ECS there, while remembering all the hassle those other poor bastards, with those other cool projects, had to go through to get accepted to Jakarta.. -- Mvh, Endre -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
I'm not sure what to make of this discussion, except this, why would anyone expect a loose OS project like jakarta to be well organised, methodical and fair? Life's not fair, and bearing in mind that everyone involved has to do something else to earn a crust and spare time when they can for jakarta, I think its a wonderous miracle that jakarta works at all, let alone bears such rich fruit. So there :-) d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 1/29/02 7:02 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What's the point? | | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS repositories. | | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve? Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all about. Browsing it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in there. | | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we need | to address on the website, I think. Yes. Good. We agree :) | | | 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a nice, | thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into Jakarta just | takes a cvs commit. Even top level. | | No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, Commons and | a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. That's it. I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have some control over the community. Example? Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback. [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of | jakarta, I have no special privs. And I think that is the right way, | BTW. I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now.. People from the outside is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?.. Ok, that's 5 minutes response time, it's now in place. Can you offer an example? | While if fantastically cool projects | that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible. | | Come on. This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI. How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to ECS? Don't know about ECS - that was something from java.apache.org days, I think, and I suspect just grandfathered in. Seems right to me. And I am not saying that because I am a jakarta guy, or Jon is my friend, or anything like that. In the evolution of Jakarta, java.apache.org came before - it makes sense to keep the continuity. | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here. Both are in... What is the argument again? | (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than | everybody elses.) | | Nope. Some of us just tend to listen to him... I know. As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of Jakarta? If a project dies, that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something like this, does it die away from Jakarta too? It seems to - look at the calendar project :) As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine. One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is not that easy. Thanks Jeff Prickett -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting We will be judged not by the monuments we build, but by the monuments we destroy - Ada Louise Huxtable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, Jeff Prickett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine. And they still are in Turbine. They are subsections of Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community. We have the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects. One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is not that easy. I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project. Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in Velocity, and - in Avalon) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Ceki Gülcü wrote: In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer community? To paraphrase Stefano Mazzocchi (only because I can't locate the exact words via Google at the moment) - a wonderful idea with a lousy implementation. Any other permutations of those two don't seem to work. ; -) Tomcat and Ant met both of these criterias at the time they became subprojects of Jakarta. Oro and Regexp sprung to life fully formed, not leaving enough of an itch to be scratched, so have gathered less attention. In retrospect, people found alternatives that are more appealing than constructing HTML element by element within your Java programs. Sometimes the reasons an implementation is lousy (or at least, not appropriate for the task at hand) are non-technical. Freemarker was a wonderful idea with a GPL implementation. Hence velocity was born. I can name other, more recent, examples why there is duplication within Jakarta along these lines. But in most cases, the angers have not cooled, so bringing up these examples would be more of a distraction than help address your question. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
on 1/29/02 4:42 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Example? Stefano pushed to get POI in, and there was *huge* pushback. At least heavy from Jon, as I remember it. I wasn't about to accept a half assed proposal. Is there anything wrong with that? The POI team took our feedback, re-worked things and re-submitted their proposal. As a result, I was also one of the first people to vote +1 to their new proposal. I give that team major props for not taking things personally and simply improving their game. You might be able to learn something from them. Endre, you clearly have a personal bias against me. If you would like to continue to express it, you are free to do so. However, your complete lack of contributions around here, other than expressing your bias against me, is making you look like a baboon. Put up or shut up. p.s. If you are ever in Berkeley, I would be more than happy to buy you dinner. thanks, -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
on 1/29/02 8:52 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sometimes the reasons an implementation is lousy (or at least, not appropriate for the task at hand) are non-technical. Freemarker was a wonderful idea with a GPL implementation. Hence velocity was born. Just to be clear... s/freemarker/webmacro/ http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/differences.html -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
| Endre, you clearly have a personal bias against me. If you would like to
| continue to express it, you are free to do so. However, your complete lack
| of contributions around here, other than expressing your bias against me, is
| making you look like a baboon. Put up or shut up.
Take it as a voice from the oppressed people (especially newcomers, that
is) which don't dare to talk out loud! And from the potential, maybe even
cool, new projects which could have benefitted both the customers and
the developers of Jakarta, but which won't ever try to come here because
of the hostile environment which some persons make...
,)
| p.s. If you are ever in Berkeley, I would be more than happy to buy you
| dinner.
Cool, thanks! Call me if you come to Norway!
(I studied a year ('99/'00) at UCSB. I actually have some friends
(people I know ;) up there, so maybe it'll even happen! ;)
--
Mvh,
Endre
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Ceki Gulcu wrote: In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer community? I know what does not nuture a development environment. 1. Working in a vacuum and hoping someone magically finds out. 2. Mispresenting (Intentionally or Unintentionally) the status of the project. 3. Not having a clear vision of what features we want to see and when. Actually, I am going to put my flame suit on before I say this, but I was reading an MS Press book by Jim McCarthy (VC++ manager) called Dynamics of Software Development. He outlines 50 some odd rules of software development. One rule is to have a Multi-release technology plan. Its just a big word for a document that outlines which features will be available in what release or in what time frame. Ideally, this document should have the buy in of the whole development team. I think what Mr. McCarthy is trying to do with the Multi-Release plan is to create Vision. Great communities development or otherwise share a common vision. The multi-release technology plan serves two purposes. It establishes a vision and then breaks it down into a set of smaller steps which are easier and less frustrating to accomplish. When I have a community of developers around icalendar. I am going to borrow a page from the MS playbook and create a Multi-release technology plan. -- Ceki It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the decisions that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20 hindsight. Some might even find it amusing to single out some of the participants and try to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of that person's reputation in the court of public opinion. It is easy to play Monday morning quarterback. One of the reasons I stayed away so long was the initial dread of trying to explain what had happened (why I quit, why iCalendar had failed). snip Jeff Prickett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Comments inline... -Original Message- From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:02 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? | What's the point? | | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS | repositories. | | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve? Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all about. Browsing it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in there. SUBMIT A PATCH!!! | | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we | need to address on the website, I think. Yes. | | | 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a | nice, thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into | Jakarta just takes a cvs commit. Even top level. | | No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, | Commons and a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. | That's it. I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have some control over the community. Not really, there are guidelines, and that is but one. [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of | jakarta, I have no special privs. And I think that is the right way, | BTW. I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now.. People from the outside is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?.. Ok, that's 5 minutes response time, it's now in place. What did jon stuff into the top level? Do you understand that ECS is on of the OLDEST projects here at Jakarta, that was started with Jserv at java.apache.org, and moved to jakarta to avoid trademark issues with the java name? No one just stuffed it in. Where you here when this happened? I have been lurking in the java-apache space since early 1998, and I can say that the community back then was MUCH smaller. | While if fantastically cool projects | that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible. | | Come on. This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI. How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to ECS? That is up to the person you ask. Someone from Avalon would probably say Avalon is most important. I would actually say that ANT is the most important. I am not even a committer there. Others would say Tomcat. Even others from the old days would say that Jserv is the most important. Point is that nothing is 'cooler' than anything else, only on a person by person basis. | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here. Are they not in? I think that they are :) | (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than | everybody elses.) | | Nope. Some of us just tend to listen to him... I know. Because he has actually been involved here pratically forever!!! I will always hear Jon, Pier, Stefano and now Sam no matter what they have to say. They have earned my respect. That does NOT mean I WILL follow them, only that I will try to understand what they are saying. They tend to be right a lot of the time. With that said I also must say that sometimes I completely disagree with Jon, but that is my right as well. As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of Jakarta? If a project dies, that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something like this, does it die away from Jakarta too? What would you like to see happen? Should we wipe the site with something that has no activity? Should Jserv die because the last release was forever ago? I think not. Jserv is a production server that lives in many production sites. Try finding a java web hoster that uses something other than Jserv. What is your patch to the problem? Looking forward to your PATCH. Scott Sanders -- Mvh, Endre -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Just my two cents worth. .. don't freeze your vision. Have one (we have a very general one for POI plus some very specific ones for each release), but you have to allow people to come in and say I want this by 2.0 even if its a 4.0 for you. For example we landed a very talented developer for POI by allowing some features I didn't think were very important in our next release (they turned out to be more important then I realized but thats a long story). He's now involved in far more than what his original plan was. Its also a strategic advantage to have someone working tomorrow while I'm sleeping (he's an Aussie). I try and constantly say Okay here is the release vision as I understand it to date for the next 2 or so releases regularly to keep it constantly discussed. You have to remember opensource is very fluid. You can't *nail* it down the way you can other projects. The best way to do this is just release as often as possible. This will make people button up code *for the release* including yourself. Some folks will come in with the new features long before you're ready for them. MS doesn't have that because they fire those people ;-). I figure if one guy wants it bad enough to do it himself, then probably a hundred want it almost bad enough ;-). Keep user needs in perspective. Users are your future development community and are really an undervalued commodity in open source projects. I realize (theres a whole paragraph on this on one of the jakarta who we are pages), that having a bazillion users isn't as big of a deal as it is to a commercial project, but it sure as heck helps. Its also a wicked career incentive (that I didn't even realize) for developers on the project. Lastly, highlight the heck out of the accomplishments of the developers on the project. Don't suck all the limelight. Avoid it like the plauge, you'll get yours. (yours may be a barrage of poorly expressed emails where you quickly diagnose the problem as a mater of failure to meet the relative intelligence requirements, but you'll get yours ;-) ). This advice is for everyone on the project ;-). (great positive spiral dontcha think). Anyhow thats my opinion. -Andy On Tue, 2002-01-22 at 12:33, Jeff Prickett wrote: Ceki Gulcu wrote: In your opinion, what are the key factors in nurturing a developer community? I know what does not nuture a development environment. 1. Working in a vacuum and hoping someone magically finds out. 2. Mispresenting (Intentionally or Unintentionally) the status of the project. 3. Not having a clear vision of what features we want to see and when. Actually, I am going to put my flame suit on before I say this, but I was reading an MS Press book by Jim McCarthy (VC++ manager) called Dynamics of Software Development. He outlines 50 some odd rules of software development. One rule is to have a Multi-release technology plan. Its just a big word for a document that outlines which features will be available in what release or in what time frame. Ideally, this document should have the buy in of the whole development team. I think what Mr. McCarthy is trying to do with the Multi-Release plan is to create Vision. Great communities development or otherwise share a common vision. The multi-release technology plan serves two purposes. It establishes a vision and then breaks it down into a set of smaller steps which are easier and less frustrating to accomplish. When I have a community of developers around icalendar. I am going to borrow a page from the MS playbook and create a Multi-release technology plan. -- Ceki It is very easy to monday-morning quaterback and second guess the decisions that were made in the distant past with perfect 20-20 hindsight. Some might even find it amusing to single out some of the participants and try to act as the judge, jury, and executioner of that person's reputation in the court of public opinion. It is easy to play Monday morning quarterback. One of the reasons I stayed away so long was the initial dread of trying to explain what had happened (why I quit, why iCalendar had failed). snip Jeff Prickett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, Jeff Prickett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine. And they still are in Turbine. They are subsections of Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community. We have the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects. One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is not that easy. I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project. Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in Velocity, and - in Avalon) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
+1 On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:07, Scott Sanders wrote: Comments inline... -Original Message- From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:02 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? | What's the point? | | They will still always be separate communities in separate CVS | repositories. | | Let me put it another way : what problem are we trying to solve? Me coming to the front page and trying to understand what Jakarta is all about. Browsing it.. Reading about all the cool technologies that's in there. SUBMIT A PATCH!!! | | That people have trouble finding out what's here? That's something we | need to address on the website, I think. Yes. | | | 2) If a guy that's already within Jakarta decides that he'll make a | nice, thight, _small_ little library, it seems like getting it into | Jakarta just takes a cvs commit. Even top level. | | No way. I'm a guy in Jakarta. I have commit privs to Velocity, | Commons and a small section of Turbine, and the main site, IIRC. | That's it. I was kind of kidding there. But it does look like it's easy to get a project accepted at Jakarta if you already have some control over the community. Not really, there are guidelines, and that is but one. [..] | The point is that even as part of the 'management committee' of | jakarta, I have no special privs. And I think that is the right way, | BTW. I basically try to point out that I think this isn't the case now.. People from the outside is met with a very hostile attitude if they ask whether this or that project could interest/supplement Apache/Jakarta, while people (or.. Jon?) on the inside says yo, dudes, what about me stuffing this little lib toplevel onto jakarta?.. Ok, that's 5 minutes response time, it's now in place. What did jon stuff into the top level? Do you understand that ECS is on of the OLDEST projects here at Jakarta, that was started with Jserv at java.apache.org, and moved to jakarta to avoid trademark issues with the java name? No one just stuffed it in. Where you here when this happened? I have been lurking in the java-apache space since early 1998, and I can say that the community back then was MUCH smaller. | While if fantastically cool projects | that are outside of Jakarta wants to get in, it's about impossible. | | Come on. This year we started Commons and added Lucene, BCEL, POI. How much cooler isn't the idea of POI compared to ECS? BCEL? And how much more hassle and stress did the POI dudes have to go through, compared to ECS? That is up to the person you ask. Someone from Avalon would probably say Avalon is most important. I would actually say that ANT is the most important. I am not even a committer there. Others would say Tomcat. Even others from the old days would say that Jserv is the most important. Point is that nothing is 'cooler' than anything else, only on a person by person basis. | What 'fantastically cool projects' want to get in? BCEL and POI are the ones I'm especcialy pointing towards here. Are they not in? I think that they are :) | (Corollary (?!): Jon Stevens' vote is about 10 times bigger than | everybody elses.) | | Nope. Some of us just tend to listen to him... I know. Because he has actually been involved here pratically forever!!! I will always hear Jon, Pier, Stefano and now Sam no matter what they have to say. They have earned my respect. That does NOT mean I WILL follow them, only that I will try to understand what they are saying. They tend to be right a lot of the time. With that said I also must say that sometimes I completely disagree with Jon, but that is my right as well. As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of Jakarta? If a project dies, that nobody seems to update it, the list dies or something like this, does it die away from Jakarta too? What would you like to see happen? Should we wipe the site with something that has no activity? Should Jserv die because the last release was forever ago? I think not. Jserv is a production server that lives in many production sites. Try finding a java web hoster that uses something other than Jserv. What is your patch to the problem? Looking forward to your PATCH. Scott Sanders -- Mvh, Endre -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
h yummy. I've GOT to check out JAMES... -Andy On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:11, Scott Sanders wrote: Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, Jeff Prickett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine. And they still are in Turbine. They are subsections of Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community. We have the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects. One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is not that easy. I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project. Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in Velocity, and - in Avalon) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. I can plug in WebDAV support and then right some plugins for Outlook and voila, the user would never know the difference. How's that for reducing TCO? Welcome to Jakarta BTW. Having done the whole writing Excel Files in Unix thing (BIFF4 back in 1992!), I respect what you have done! Scott -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 11:16 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? h yummy. I've GOT to check out JAMES... -Andy On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:11, Scott Sanders wrote: Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) -Original Message- From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:26 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? On 1/22/02 9:02 AM, Jeff Prickett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As we speak I am trying to restart the calendar effort. I think that I have a point to make here in this forum. First a lot of these sub-projects are spun off from other projects iCalendar originally started in Jetspeed. The same is true for Torque and Fulcrum. They started in Turbine. And they still are in Turbine. They are subsections of Turbine that are managed by the Turbine community. We have the same thing in Velocity with the DVSL and -tools projects. One reason calendar died is because, there is no community around it. It was just me contributing to jetspeed. One of my first goals as a developer with calendar this time is to get more people involved. It is not that easy. I know you are trying to boot this as a top-level project. Would starting to get a core community be easier if you went back to Jetspeed and made it a subproject there (like -torque, -fulcrum, -stratum in Turbine and -dvsl, -tools in Velocity, and - in Avalon) -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] System and Software Consulting Be a giant. Take giant steps. Do giant things... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555 .html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:54, Endre Stølsvik wrote: | As a complement to this: how is the deprecating system of | Jakarta? If a project dies, that nobody seems to update it, | the list dies or something like this, does it die away from | Jakarta too? | | What would you like to see happen? Should we wipe the site with | something that has no activity? Should Jserv die because the last | release was forever ago? I think not. Jserv is a production server | that lives in many production sites. Try finding a java web hoster | that uses something other than Jserv. | | What is your patch to the problem? This is just some quick ideas. No patches, again... This is for the customer view of your cool open source products. The developers hopefully know what they're developing already..! *) A couple of different web pages. One called releases, another called in development and a thrid called deprecated or something similar. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html *) All pages whould be further divided into groups, maybe even some kind of tree, based on functionality. It's already started by the grouping in that table done on the frontpage, which is good. This grouping could be identical on each page. +1 to do in the sidebar. I'll submit a patch/patches to this effect when I'm done with the poi transition. *) Releases are the stuff that are released and maybe in production quality. By the minor numbers you'd see if a project had had some time to mature. Maybe a download counter, so that you'd see how many which is potentially using it. A release date with the download, so that you'd understand how fresh the release was. A release is decided by the project team. not sure how this is different from present *) Under development are things that are in development, in beta cycling or release candidate or similar stages. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html *) Deprecated are things that have lost most of their community, or which have been truly deprecated by other products which are superior. In this way people wouldn't start fumbling around with old technology, but concentrate on the stuff that Jakarta felt was up to speed with the current state of the art. It could potentially be a bit difficult to decide what would end up in this section. But I think that the developers of the projects (if there was any left) would decide this themselves. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html - see jserv. Personally I think JServ should be more prominently featured as there are still s many people using it (even if development is not happening any longer). But I respect the decision not to. Several things would maybe have to appear both in releases and under development. JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too. Maybe some other products as well. -1 on deprecation in reference to Tomcat. 3.1 is a version. Know very little about ECS. I think I used it once a long time ago..but I cannot light the candle of thought. I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other systems in that there is a board that oversees the whole thing, accepts new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be deprecated. This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think. It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta, and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least some common quality control on these types of projects? *) Furter; if things started to get a bit too big, one could further divide the projects, and create new boards. The Libray, Tools and APIs could have one board, the Frameworks and Engines could have another and so on. A subdivision at each level that got too big. *) There could even be a section (page) called Under Consideration, but that could maybe be left up to sourceforge? Endre. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What would you like to see happen? Should we wipe the site with | something that has no activity? Should Jserv die because the last | release was forever ago? I think not. Jserv is a production server | that lives in many production sites. Try finding a java web hoster | that uses something other than Jserv. | | What is your patch to the problem? This is just some quick ideas. Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code. We don't need quick ideas. We need people who are stepping up to the plate and making real stuff happen. JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too. Maybe some other products as well. Excuse me, but why should ECS be deprecated? People still use it. There is still developers checking in code for it and patches are being sent to the mailing list. That smells like an active project to me. I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other systems in that there is a board that oversees the whole thing, accepts new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be deprecated. This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think. It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta, and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least some common quality control on these types of projects? First you say there is an advantage of no 'board that oversees the whole thing' and then you say shouldn't there be at least some common quality control. Make up your mind dude. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Scott Sanders wrote: Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) Good point, I would accept that place as a home for the back end objects. Possibly split iCalendar between JAMES and Jetspeed or make it its own module that plugs in to either. Front end - Jetspeed, Back end JAMES. I would like to see Apache create an Exchange killer, but that talk is premature :). Jeff Prickett snip Rest of converstion -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. Scott -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? Let's innovate, not duplicate. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
So then start the base code in the commons, and create impls in Jetspeed and James that use the base. Scott -Original Message- From: Jeff Prickett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:10 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? Scott Sanders wrote: Calendar is much more apropos in JAMES IMHO. I think that JAMES could become an Exchange killer :) Good point, I would accept that place as a home for the back end objects. Possibly split iCalendar between JAMES and Jetspeed or make it its own module that plugs in to either. Front end - Jetspeed, Back end JAMES. I would like to see Apache create an Exchange killer, but that talk is premature :). Jeff Prickett snip Rest of converstion -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:08, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? + 1/2 I think achieving interoperability with the clients would be good. Basically a drop-inable replacement that is *better*. I like the calendar thing in excel et al...I'd never actually use it unless forced because I've got my palm (and yes I don't actually care about synchronizing it because I never use that info on my PC or if I do its less convenient to synch then type). My issue is the places I typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of often being forced into one. -Andy Let's innovate, not duplicate. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: | on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | | What would you like to see happen? Should we wipe the site with | | something that has no activity? Should Jserv die because the last | | release was forever ago? I think not. Jserv is a production server | | that lives in many production sites. Try finding a java web hoster | | that uses something other than Jserv. | | | | What is your patch to the problem? | | This is just some quick ideas. | | Those with the most opinions tend to contribute the least code. | | We don't need quick ideas. We need people who are stepping up to the plate | and making real stuff happen. Why not view me as an outsider, trying to use your cool stuff, not finding my way around, wading through small and big projects alike.. Not even to mention XML (which I just discovered today) and the rest of Apache. Should've been consolidated, the whole thing. Into a big nice tree.. | | JServ IS deprecated, isn't it? ECS could be deprecated. Tomcat 3.1 too. | Maybe some other products as well. | | Excuse me, but why should ECS be deprecated? People still use it. There is | still developers checking in code for it and patches are being sent to the | mailing list. That smells like an active project to me. Because there are _better_ alternatives, like maybe Velocity? The deprecated thing would not remove the project, it could just direct new people to use better, newer technologies. So both JServ, Tomcat 3.1 and ECS would still be used and even developed a bit further, but new people could use better tech. | | I feel that Apache and Jakarta has a real advantage over those other | systems in that there is a board that oversees the whole thing, accepts | new stuff into the system, and maybe also suggests that things should be | deprecated. This will ensure that projects hosted at Jakarta would be of | another level of quality than other development systems. Accepting new | projects isn't impossible, it is desireable, I think. | It kind of seems like things can be both invented, or born, at Jakarta, | and that they can come from other sources. Shouldn't there be at least | some common quality control on these types of projects? | | First you say there is an advantage of no 'board that oversees the whole | thing' and then you say shouldn't there be at least some common quality | control. Make up your mind dude. Hmm.. Huh? I say that Apache and Jakarta _has_ (should have used have, maybe?) a real advantage .. -- Mvh, Endre -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
The user *must* still be able to use Outlook, security holes and all. Once the IT dept can replace Exchange on the back end, then the innovation starts to show... -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:08, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? + 1/2 I think achieving interoperability with the clients would be good. Basically a drop-inable replacement that is *better*. I like the calendar thing in excel et al...I'd never actually use it unless forced because I've got my palm (and yes I don't actually care about synchronizing it because I never use that info on my PC or if I do its less convenient to synch then type). My issue is the places I typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of often being forced into one. -Andy Let's innovate, not duplicate. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555 .html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:07, Scott Sanders wrote: Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. + 1/2 - the users that WANT to believe its exchange. The ones with brains can use their brains and say gee do I want to use a client that every freaking email virus in the world less like 3 was written for... ;-) Scott -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? Let's innovate, not duplicate. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
-Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:14 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:13, Scott Sanders wrote: The user *must* still be able to use Outlook, security holes and all. Once the IT dept can replace Exchange on the back end, then the innovation starts to show... Thats what I meant. I just meant to say being interoperable with doesn't mean you have to suck too. ;-) Yes. Exactly. snip/ Scott -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Scott Sanders wrote: Again, why don't you send a patch with the pages that you would like to see, and then we could discuss that? What we are saying is that we do not really know how a jakarta user wants to see it. You do. So post some HTML and lets talk about it., +1. It doesn't even have to be in the form of HTML. Straight text using notepad/vi/emacs with ASCII art would seed the discussion just as effectively. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
What I'm saying is duplicate the cool features, interoperate with the client but be better. I agree with both Scott and am willing to help as much as I can, and Jon (that exchange sucks...though I think he could express the degree of suckiness better than I can ;-) ). I also think making client *choice* an integral part of it would be a nice feature. I freaking hate outlook. -Andy On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:12, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:07, Scott Sanders wrote: Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. + 1/2 - the users that WANT to believe its exchange. The ones with brains can use their brains and say gee do I want to use a client that every freaking email virus in the world less like 3 was written for... ;-) Scott -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 11:54 AM, lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? Let's innovate, not duplicate. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:26, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. Scott What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install an OSS Jakarta technology over just installing Exchange? because MS keeps upping the price. Recessions are great for that kinda thing. If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there? I could make the same arguments for just about any serverside software. HTTPD for instance ;-) See my point? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. Scott -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. Scott What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install an OSS Jakarta technology over just installing Exchange? If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there? See my point? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:27, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My issue is the places I typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of often being forced into one. -Andy What makes you think that you could actually do that? ;-) Recession, I'm very persuasive :-D, and I'm getting better at that sort of thing: JAMES, because we didn't know groupware was supposed to suck (did I steal that?) JAMES, the best patch for your next 100 email server security holes! JAMES, because $(calculate the cost of exchange per 100 users) is way freaking too much to pay if its going to be down all day anyhow. M$ is a monopoly for a reason. So give up! Learn C# and ditch apache. Start Wakarta providing C# extensions to IIS, Exchange, etc. ;-) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
And IBM *was* a monopoly for a reason. Time has a way of changing things. I firmly believe that Outlook is the major reason that Linux is not on the desktop. But that is just my opinion. Scot -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 12:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My issue is the places I typically work if I could sell a drop in replacement for Exchange...heck yeah cause then I wouldn't be forced to use that spamming virus ridden security hole and would be able to pick my own email client instead of often being forced into one. -Andy What makes you think that you could actually do that? M$ is a monopoly for a reason. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:29, Scott Sanders wrote: My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. +1! Scott -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 12:07 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Innovation is necessary. But duplication is also necessary for the purpose of adoption. The only way to beat Exchange is to look like Exchange. The innovation will then help, but only after the user thinks that it *is* Exchange. Scott What makes you think that a MIS manager is going to install an OSS Jakarta technology over just installing Exchange? If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there? See my point? -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
on 1/29/02 12:18 PM, Endre Stølsvik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not view me as an outsider, trying to use your cool stuff, not finding my way around, wading through small and big projects alike.. My point is that there is no such thing as an 'outsider'. You can become just as involved as I am and there are no road blocks to doing so other than your own. If you have questions that would help clear up your confusion, I am more than happy to answer them for you. If you would like to tell us how to do things I'm more than happy to ignore you. If you would like to contribute something that would improve the project, I would be more than happy to help you. See my point? Because there are _better_ alternatives, like maybe Velocity? Well, thanks for the compliments...given that I started both projects... The deprecated thing would not remove the project, it could just direct new people to use better, newer technologies. So both JServ, Tomcat 3.1 and ECS would still be used and even developed a bit further, but new people could use better tech. It is plastered all over the Jserv homepage that it is deprecated. ECS isn't deprecated because it does still have uses for some people. Some people honestly prefer it. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. Scott Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:44, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. Scott Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do. Who would like a money motivator, and yet have to deal with interoperability. Great Actor identification Jon. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
Oh and don't forget Lotus notes. Notes seems to be somewhat of a deprecation, but had some app development features that are still used in a lot of places. Modernize these and make them more web-ish and you'd have something that would make a lot of folks very happy. 1. MIS Managers - $$$, interoperability, TCO 2. Sysadmins- frustration 3. Developers - migrate off of Notes, little-exchange-version-of-notes 4. users- stability 5. power users - choice of email client, features This sounds like a great idea Scott. On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:41, Scott Sanders wrote: Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide collaboration. MIS managers install both. But the users require Outlook, not Exchange. -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. Scott Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
I'll subscribe. (Hey you Endre ...see what just happened) -Andy On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:50, Scott Sanders wrote: Well I guess I now have to step up and put the code in place. I will see you and anyone interested over on james-dev. Cheers, Scott -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:43 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: RE: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? Oh and don't forget Lotus notes. Notes seems to be somewhat of a deprecation, but had some app development features that are still used in a lot of places. Modernize these and make them more web-ish and you'd have something that would make a lot of folks very happy. 1. MIS Managers - $$$, interoperability, TCO 2. Sysadmins- frustration 3. Developers - migrate off of Notes, little-exchange-version-of-notes 4. users- stability 5. power users - choice of email client, features This sounds like a great idea Scott. On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 15:41, Scott Sanders wrote: Some users REQUIRE Outlook, which works with Exchange to provide collaboration. MIS managers install both. But the users require Outlook, not Exchange. -Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:44 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta?? on 1/29/02 12:29 PM, Scott Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My goal is NOT to target other developers. My goal is to target users that *HAVE* to have exchange because they: 1) *HAVE* to use Outlook. 2) *HAVE* to have real groupware capabilities (calendaring, etc.) 3) Refuse to give up Outlook for a web-based impl. The users will change if they don't know that the change happened. Then things like Evolution and other clients can plug into an OSS impl. Scott Users don't install Exchange. MIS managers do. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555 .html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On 29 Jan 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: | I'll subscribe. | | (Hey you Endre ...see what just happened) Yes! And it's all my fault! ;-] heh-heh! ,) Endre -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
On Tue, 2002-01-29 at 14:22, Scott Sanders wrote: Yes. I have been thinking that Exchange needs an OSS competitor. Yes yes yes yes yes. Why would anyone want to create an OSS competitor of a piece of sh*t? Let's innovate, not duplicate. A competitor doesn't have to be a clone - it just has to fulfill the role of the other product. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ECS?? _TOP_ level project of Jakarta??
If your goal is to target other developers, then why use Exchange at all when there are better solutions out there? Such as...? With calendaring support? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
