Re: [Usability] Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

Calum Benson wrote:
> Whimsical muse: since there are almost no other gtk/GNOME apps that use
> Redo (and the only one I can think of doesn't use Ctrl-Shift-Z either),
> it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that we might end up changing
> the HIG to whatever you decide anyway :)

Well, thanks for clearing that up for us, Calum :)

Dave.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Raphaël Quinet]

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:08:02 +0200, David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In the current situation, I think it's reasonable to fit in with
> what others do in the general case, which dynamic shortcuts
> provide a way to revert to the old behaviour. When the others are
> everyone using a Mac, plus people who come to the GIMP from KDE
> or GNOME applications, and PhotoShop users, I think the benefits
> of a familiar keybinding are self-evident. 
> 
> If you like, I'm arguing populism here. More people use 
> Ctrl-Shift-Z as redu than Ctrl-R. Therefore, until there is a very 
> good reason to change, we should do the same. In addition, a
> considerable body of usability work reccommends this keymapping.

Just my 0.02 Euro...  I agree with Dave: the majority of the GIMP
users are using it very seldom and spend most of their time with other
applications.  So the consistency with other applications should have
a large weight when making decisions.  And in this case, the drawbacks
have a rather low weight because it is easy for the more experienced
users to re-assign the shortcut if they are not satisfied with
Ctrl-Shift-Z.  We should try to help those who are not using the GIMP
frequently (yet) as long as the costs for the more experienced users
are minimal.

-Raphaël
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

 Marc A. Lehmann  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 11:39:44PM +0200, David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm sure that ergonomy was considered for Photoshop when they
> > chose Ctrl-Shift-Z for Redo... I do think it's overstating our
> > importance somewhat to say that what's good for a large portion
> > of the rest of the world is not good for us.
> 
> "Others do it" is never an argument, though.

It's an argument, just not a very good one (on its own). "Others
do it, because it's been shown to be the best way" would be a
decent argument, for example (I'm not arguing this).

In the current situation, I think it's reasonable to fit in with
what others do in the general case, which dynamic shortcuts
provide a way to revert to the old behaviour. When the others are
everyone using a Mac, plus people who come to the GIMP from KDE
or GNOME applications, and PhotoShop users, I think the benefits
of a familiar keybinding are self-evident. 

If you like, I'm arguing populism here. More people use 
Ctrl-Shift-Z as redu than Ctrl-R. Therefore, until there is a very 
good reason to change, we should do the same. In addition, a
considerable body of usability work reccommends this keymapping.

> What you need are arguments in favour of Ctrl-Shift-Z, and the only ones
> that there are is "the HIG and other platforms use it, so people are
> probably used to it, making it easier for them to switch".

Yes, that's about it. It's also that current GIMP users probably
benefit from having the same keybindings everywhere. There's
nothing that annoys me more than using emacs, getting back into
the emacs keybindings, and then using vim, and freezing the
terminal with C-x C-s. Of course, this is not like with like. But
I imagine that people who use both the gimp and photoshop have
dozens of little annoyances like these.

> That is one aspect of usability. It doesn't have much to do with
> ergonomics, and as others already have said, Ctrl-R/Ctrl-Z is much more
> ergonomical than three-key-combinations.
> I think "two keys vs. three keys" is extremely obvious, too.
> So ergonomics is might have been considered, but it was certainly
> _dismissed_, as other, much more ergonomic combinations, are available.

You have a point here. I think that what was chosen was the
consistency of Shift as negation. I think that's probably a goal
we could work towards. It certainly makes a lot of logical sense.
But then, so does having + to zoom in instead of =, and look how
many bug reports that's got us :)

> > And the usability people have considerably more experience with this
> > than either of us :)
> 
> usable != ergonomic, though.

Fair enough.

> And I think that gimp users have considerable more experience with using
> gimp than the usability people.

If the GIMP were the only graphics application choosing this
keybinding I would agree. I guess that when in doubt, following
the crowd is a fairly safe bet (note this leaves open the
possibility of not following the crowd when not in doubt ;).

Cheers,
Dave.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[pcg]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2003 at 11:39:44PM +0200, David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm sure that ergonomy was considered for Photoshop when they
> chose Ctrl-Shift-Z for Redo... I do think it's overstating our
> importance somewhat to say that what's good for a large portion
> of the rest of the world is not good for us.

"Others do it" is never an argument, though.

What you need are arguments in favour of Ctrl-Shift-Z, and the only ones
that there are is "the HIG and other platforms use it, so people are
probably used to it, making it easier for them to switch".

That is one aspect of usability. It doesn't have much to do with
ergonomics, and as others already have said, Ctrl-R/Ctrl-Z is much more
ergonomical than three-key-combinations.

I think "two keys vs. three keys" is extremely obvious, too.

So ergonomics is might have been considered, but it was certainly
_dismissed_, as other, much more ergonomic combinations, are available.

> > Switching between views this fast with accuracy is simply not possible
> > using Shift-Ctrl-Z due the the physiology of the human hand. The optimal
> > hand position is left on the shift and control and right on the z, with
> > the finger on the shift moving every other beat of the other hand and the
> > finger on the control key staying still.
> 
> That depends where the z is on the keyboard :)

As a user with german keyboard, I can say that two keys (Ctrl-Z / Ctrl-R)
are much easier to toggle than using the proposed three-key combinations.

It's of no importance where the z key is, as it is used in your proposed
better solution, too.

> I believe we could hard-code two keybindings to work as the
> default, couldn't we?

Technically possible, but extremely horrible, since the user has to be
educated about it. And since the only argument in favour of the less
ergonomic C-S-Z is "easier to learn", that sounds even worse than leaving
it at C-R.

> It's pretty consistent.

This is true and has been demonstrated :)

> And the usability people have considerably more experience with this
> than either of us :)

usable != ergonomic, though.

And I think that gimp users have considerable more experience with using
gimp than the usability people.

-- 
  -==- |
  ==-- _   |
  ---==---(_)__  __   __   Marc Lehmann  +--
  --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ /   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |e|
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

Nathan Carl Summers wrote:
> I agree.  Gimp's undo and redo feature differs from many other programs in
> that when comparing subtle changes it is useful to switch rapidly between
> the "before" and "after" views, while for a program such as a word
> processor, that is probably not a useful thing to do.  This being the
> case, this particular need of GIMP users was probably not considered by
> the HIG.

I'm sure that ergonomy was considered for Photoshop when they
chose Ctrl-Shift-Z for Redo... I do think it's overstating our
importance somewhat to say that what's good for a large portion
of the rest of the world is not good for us.

> Personally, I compare between the "before" and "after" by holding down
> control and hitting z or r as necessary.  For some changes, I switch
> several times a second, as the human eye is remarkably able to detect
> small differences when they are animated.

You will be able to continue to do this, using the Wonders of
Dynamic Shortcuts. However, I think that in the general case we
should try to adhere to the keybindings which people expect if
they have used other applications (and not just imaging
applications).

> Switching between views this fast with accuracy is simply not possible
> using Shift-Ctrl-Z due the the physiology of the human hand. The optimal
> hand position is left on the shift and control and right on the z, with
> the finger on the shift moving every other beat of the other hand and the
> finger on the control key staying still.

That depends where the z is on the keyboard :)

> > So, if it's possible to have two different keybindings for the same command
> > I'd like very much to have both.
> 
> Unfortunately, it is not.  Really, GTK should be made more flexable in
> this regard, but it is not a trival problem, due to how GTK handles
> accelerators.

I believe we could hard-code two keybindings to work as the
default, couldn't we? Then if the keymapping is changed, you're
on your own. Perhaps I'm talking through my hat here.

> I'm sure that in this case most usability people would
> say that actually being able to use the feature is more important than
> consistancy with some other apps.  Especially because this particular
> funciton isn't particularly consistant between apps.

It's pretty consistent. And the usability people have
considerably more experience with this than either of us :)
I've added the usability list as a CC to see what they think.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
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   Lyon, France
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Phil Harper]

just to say, "yeah, what he said" ;)

seriously though, i have real trouble remembering to use shft+crtl+z instead 
of ctrl+r, it's mainly habit, but it is also the fact that i find the old 
method more comfortable.

the only place Ctrl+ r gets me into trouble is Mozilla, when editing an 
email i ocasionaly refresh the page by accident, thanks to my painfully slow 
connection i can sometimes stop it before it gets anywhere though :P

i'm sorry if i've missed large parts of this thread, my hotmail address is 
under attack from a worm, so i don't receive a lot of mail(other than 
"security updates") at the moment :(

Phil.

From: Nathan Carl Summers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: David Neary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Branko Collin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Gimp 
Developer List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT)

/me returns from the hurricane, finally able to catch up on several days
worth of email.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> However I *love* the Ctrl-R binding, especially because it lets me 
quickly
> compare the done and undone versions of an image using a single hand 
with
> very little effort. Try to do it with Ctrl-Z/Shift-Ctrl-Z and you'll 
find
> that you need either very good coordination between fingers (better than 
the
> one I have at least) or to use both hands.

I agree.  Gimp's undo and redo feature differs from many other programs in
that when comparing subtle changes it is useful to switch rapidly between
the "before" and "after" views, while for a program such as a word
processor, that is probably not a useful thing to do.  This being the
case, this particular need of GIMP users was probably not considered by
the HIG.
Personally, I compare between the "before" and "after" by holding down
control and hitting z or r as necessary.  For some changes, I switch
several times a second, as the human eye is remarkably able to detect
small differences when they are animated.
Switching between views this fast with accuracy is simply not possible
using Shift-Ctrl-Z due the the physiology of the human hand. The optimal
hand position is left on the shift and control and right on the z, with
the finger on the shift moving every other beat of the other hand and the
finger on the control key staying still.
Here the body's natural cordination works against switching views quickly,
as the nervous system will assume that the finger on the R key and
that on the shift key should really be synchronized.  This leads to
errors. With the old bindings the natural cordination system helps to
acomplish the task accurately and faster.
> So, if it's possible to have two different keybindings for the same 
command
> I'd like very much to have both.

Unfortunately, it is not.  Really, GTK should be made more flexable in
this regard, but it is not a trival problem, due to how GTK handles
accelerators.
Since we only can choose one, it makes sense that we choose the one that
ergonomics favors.  I'm sure that in this case most usability people would
say that actually being able to use the feature is more important than
consistancy with some other apps.  Especially because this particular
funciton isn't particularly consistant between apps.
On the other hand, we could go for both ergonomics and consistency by
using MS Office's Ctrl-Y.  Note that I am not recommending it.  I think
keeping redo the way it is in 1.2 is the best policy.
> BTW, the mail program I'm using right now (Forte Agent) uses Ctrl-R to 
redo.

There we go, between that and tradition, we have all the justification we
need. ;)
Rockwalrus

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Nathan Carl Summers]

/me returns from the hurricane, finally able to catch up on several days
worth of email.

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> However I *love* the Ctrl-R binding, especially because it lets me quickly
> compare the done and undone versions of an image using a single hand with
> very little effort. Try to do it with Ctrl-Z/Shift-Ctrl-Z and you'll find
> that you need either very good coordination between fingers (better than the
> one I have at least) or to use both hands.

I agree.  Gimp's undo and redo feature differs from many other programs in
that when comparing subtle changes it is useful to switch rapidly between
the "before" and "after" views, while for a program such as a word
processor, that is probably not a useful thing to do.  This being the
case, this particular need of GIMP users was probably not considered by
the HIG.

Personally, I compare between the "before" and "after" by holding down
control and hitting z or r as necessary.  For some changes, I switch
several times a second, as the human eye is remarkably able to detect
small differences when they are animated.

Switching between views this fast with accuracy is simply not possible
using Shift-Ctrl-Z due the the physiology of the human hand. The optimal
hand position is left on the shift and control and right on the z, with
the finger on the shift moving every other beat of the other hand and the
finger on the control key staying still.

Here the body's natural cordination works against switching views quickly,
as the nervous system will assume that the finger on the R key and
that on the shift key should really be synchronized.  This leads to
errors. With the old bindings the natural cordination system helps to
acomplish the task accurately and faster.

> So, if it's possible to have two different keybindings for the same command
> I'd like very much to have both.

Unfortunately, it is not.  Really, GTK should be made more flexable in
this regard, but it is not a trival problem, due to how GTK handles
accelerators.

Since we only can choose one, it makes sense that we choose the one that
ergonomics favors.  I'm sure that in this case most usability people would
say that actually being able to use the feature is more important than
consistancy with some other apps.  Especially because this particular
funciton isn't particularly consistant between apps.

On the other hand, we could go for both ergonomics and consistency by
using MS Office's Ctrl-Y.  Note that I am not recommending it.  I think
keeping redo the way it is in 1.2 is the best policy.

> BTW, the mail program I'm using right now (Forte Agent) uses Ctrl-R to redo.

There we go, between that and tradition, we have all the justification we
need. ;)

Rockwalrus

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

Hi,

Sven Neumann wrote:
> Ack. IMHO the new keybinding (David changed it already) is really
> akward to use compared to the old one. And actually Ctrl-Shift-Z
> should better be left available so we can bind it to group undos later
> when this feature is implemented. (A group undo would allow to undo
> all operations of the same type found at the top of the undo stack,
> for example all paint strokes).

Personally, I'd prefer to keep the new keybinding for the reasons
already stated, and look at another keybinding for the new
functionality. I don't have any ideas on what that functionality
should be, but I think that using the keybinding for group-undo
when on other software platformsit is redo could risk being
confusing.

Cheers,
Dave.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Sven Neumann]

Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> However I *love* the Ctrl-R binding, especially because it lets me quickly
> compare the done and undone versions of an image using a single hand with
> very little effort. Try to do it with Ctrl-Z/Shift-Ctrl-Z and you'll find
> that you need either very good coordination between fingers (better than the
> one I have at least) or to use both hands.

Ack. IMHO the new keybinding (David changed it already) is really
akward to use compared to the old one. And actually Ctrl-Shift-Z
should better be left available so we can bind it to group undos later
when this feature is implemented. (A group undo would allow to undo
all operations of the same type found at the top of the undo stack,
for example all paint strokes).


Sven
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[usr352]

"Branko Collin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[...]
>BTW, I read in the Windows HIG that several shortcuts per function 
>are supported, for reasons of backward compatibility. Would it be 
>possible to have something similar in the GIMP?

YES, please!!

I fully agree that Shift-Ctrl-Z is The Right Thing To Do. Even if it's not a
very known fact, some of the Windows system shortcuts (and some applications
also follow the same idea) use Shift to reverse the operation of a command,
e.g. Alt-Tab/Shift-Alt-Tab to switch to next/previous app,
Ctrl-Tab/Shift-Ctrl-Tab to go to the next/previous window in a MDI
application, Alt-Esc/Shift-Alt-Esc to go to the next/previous item in the
taskbar, and some others that I don't remember/know. Notably there are even
some applications such as Delphi that support both Ctrl-Z and Alt-Backspace
for undo, and both Shift-Ctrl-Z and Shift-Alt-Backspace for redo. MSPaint is
not an example, though it uses Alt-Backspace for undo as well as Ctrl-Z.
This tries to fill the space left by Branko Collin about what MS says, even
if it does not say anything explicitly. :)

However I *love* the Ctrl-R binding, especially because it lets me quickly
compare the done and undone versions of an image using a single hand with
very little effort. Try to do it with Ctrl-Z/Shift-Ctrl-Z and you'll find
that you need either very good coordination between fingers (better than the
one I have at least) or to use both hands.

So, if it's possible to have two different keybindings for the same command
I'd like very much to have both.

BTW, the mail program I'm using right now (Forte Agent) uses Ctrl-R to redo.

-- 
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Branko Collin]

On 21 Sep 2003, at 15:46, David Neary wrote:
> Branko Collin wrote:
> > On 21 Sep 2003, at 14:12, David Neary wrote:

> > > Excuse me - the shortcut I'd like to change is Redo, which is
> > > currently Ctrl-R. Most apps in the Linux desktop space are now
> > > adopting some or all of the GNOME HIG in this regard. So - to
> > > correct myself - I'd like to change Ctrl-R to Ctrl-Shift-Z.
> > 
> > But since when did GIMP _users_ all start living there? Do we know
> > what the guidelines for other platforms are? How useful are the HIG?
> 
> This was also something that was addressed in the old threads, I
> believe... Here's the mail in question.
> https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-developer/2003-June/008870.h
> tml

Well, certainly both current practice and HIGs are against me. Quite 
frankly, the former weighs heavier with me. 

Still, it feels unintuitive somehow. Usually, with a complementary 
function, you get to see an immediate difference. For instance, the 
Print Preview dialog is clearly different from the Print dialog. 
Having Ctrl-P and Shift-Ctrl-P for these makes sense, because if you 
accidentally hit the wrong keys, you have immediate feedback that 
shows your mistake.

However, the difference between hitting Shift-Ctrl-Z and Ctrl-Z is 
not always apparent, unless you always have the Undo History open and 
visible. So it would make sense to have the complementing function 
under a shortcut that won't be easily accessed by mistake.

Anyway, I don't think we're going to agree on this, so as far as I am 
concerned, go ahead and make the change.

BTW, I read in the Windows HIG that several shortcuts per function 
are supported, for reasons of backward compatibility. Would it be 
possible to have something similar in the GIMP?

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Branko Collin]

On 21 Sep 2003, at 14:51, Branko Collin wrote:
> On 21 Sep 2003, at 14:12, David Neary wrote:
> > Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
>
> > > Why not Ctrl-Z, which is faster and which almost everybody knows
> > > already?
> >
> > Excuse me - the shortcut I'd like to change is Redo, which is
> > currently Ctrl-R. Most apps in the Linux desktop space are now
> > adopting some or all of the GNOME HIG in this regard. So - to
> > correct myself - I'd like to change Ctrl-R to Ctrl-Shift-Z.
>
> I have always understood and accepted why some of the GIMP
> functionality (or lack thereof) seems a bit Linuxy. After all, most
> developers like to use Linux, so you get a natural bias.
>
> But since when did GIMP _users_ all start living there? Do we know
> what the guidelines for other platforms are? How useful are the HIG?

I looked a bit further into this. Relevant links can be found in the
Future section at .

GNU/Gnome says:

"Use Shift-Ctrl-letter for functions that reverse or extend another
function. For example, Ctrl-Z and Shift-Ctrl-Z for Undo and Redo.
Note that you cannot use Shift-Ctrl-A-thru-F, however, as these
combinations are used to enter unicode characters in text fields.

Function   Shortcut   Description
Undo   Ctrl-Z Undo the last operation
Redo   Shift-Ctrl-Z   Redo the last operation"



Microsoft says:

[nothing]

I could only find a recommendation to use Ctrl-Z for Undo. It could
be that MS uses a different term for Redo, so that I could not find
anything for that.



Apple says:

"Use the Command key as the main modifier key for keyboard
equivalents. For a command that complements another more common
command, you can add Shift. The table below shows some recommended
keyboard equivalents using Shift.

Table 9-8 Some of the recommended keyboard equivalents using Shift to
complement other commands

Keys CommandComplemented
command
Shift-Command-A Deselect AllCommand-A (Select
All)
Shift-Command-G Find Previous   Command-G (Find
Again)
Shift-Command-P Page Setup  Command-P (Print)
Shift-Command-S Save As Command-S (Save)
Shift-Command-V Paste as (Quotation, for example)   Command-V (Paste)
Shift-Command-Z RedoCommand-Z (Undo)

Note: Shift-Command-Z would be used for Redo only if Undo and Redo
are separate commands (rather than toggled using Command-Z).

If there’s a third, less common command that’s related to a pair of
commands that use Command and Shift-Command, you can use Option-
Command for the third command’s keyboard equivalent. In the example
in Table 9-9, Save All could be a dynamic menu item (see “Menu
Behavior”) that appears in place of Save when the user presses the
Option key (rather than a separate menu item). Use combinations like
these very rarely."


So, as you can see, Apple and Gnome are basically in agreement
(although their different wording, 'complement' versus 'reverse or
extend', may lead to differences in keyboard shortcut assignments).

--
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

Branko Collin wrote:
> On 21 Sep 2003, at 14:12, David Neary wrote:
> > Excuse me - the shortcut I'd like to change is Redo, which is
> > currently Ctrl-R. Most apps in the Linux desktop space are now
> > adopting some or all of the GNOME HIG in this regard. So - to
> > correct myself - I'd like to change Ctrl-R to Ctrl-Shift-Z.
> 
> But since when did GIMP _users_ all start living there? Do we know 
> what the guidelines for other platforms are? How useful are the HIG?

This was also something that was addressed in the old threads, I
believe... Here's the mail in question.
https://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists/gimp-developer/2003-June/008870.html

In summary:
Windows in general: Ctrl-Y
Apple standard: Apple-Shift-Z
GNOME: Ctrl-Shift-Z
KDE: Ctrl-Shift-Z
PhotoShop: Ctrl-Shift-Z
PSP: Ctrl-Alt-Z (they use Ctrl-Shift-Z for "bring up undo
history", apparently)

The HIG is the nearest thing we have to a proposal for consistent
keybindings across the free desktops - much of it has been
adopted by freedesktop, and is being implemented by all the major
free software platforms (OO.o, Mozilla, KDE and GNOME). As we can
see, the keybinding is also widespread on other systems, and in
other apps. 

It's a small change, and (as has been said before) anyone who is
particularly upset by it would presumably be able to modify it
using dynamic shortcuts (presumably, the question "what happened
to Ctrl-R?" will soon join "Why doesn't = zoom in any more?" as a
FAQ).

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
   David Neary,
   Lyon, France
  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Branko Collin]

On 21 Sep 2003, at 14:12, David Neary wrote:
> Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:

> > Why not Ctrl-Z, which is faster and which almost everybody knows
> > already?
> 
> Excuse me - the shortcut I'd like to change is Redo, which is
> currently Ctrl-R. Most apps in the Linux desktop space are now
> adopting some or all of the GNOME HIG in this regard. So - to
> correct myself - I'd like to change Ctrl-R to Ctrl-Shift-Z.

I have always understood and accepted why some of the GIMP 
functionality (or lack thereof) seems a bit Linuxy. After all, most 
developers like to use Linux, so you get a natural bias.

But since when did GIMP _users_ all start living there? Do we know 
what the guidelines for other platforms are? How useful are the HIG?

-- 
branko collin
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[Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[David Neary]

Hi,

Steinar H. Gunderson wrote:
> Why not Ctrl-Z, which is faster and which almost everybody knows already?

Excuse me - the shortcut I'd like to change is Redo, which is
currently Ctrl-R. Most apps in the Linux desktop space are now
adopting some or all of the GNOME HIG in this regard. So - to
correct myself - I'd like to change Ctrl-R to Ctrl-Shift-Z.

Cheers,
Dave.

-- 
   David Neary,
   Lyon, France
  E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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