Re[2]: [HG] builders' group
Really, in looking back at the contents of this list from the time I joined, I can say that this is definitely NOT a players list. There are very few discussions of techniques, of arrangement methods, of playing techniques. There is a lot of discussion of events, of bands, of music to listen to. There are a few requests for tunes. There are a LOT of requests for information about how to get started, but very little about intermediate or advanced playing. Most of the information I see that is more than just topical has to do with the instrument itself - setting up, information about strings and tensions and adjustments. I find this information is particualarly part of 'builders' discussions. It seems like most of the replies and responses we see on the list are of a technical (instrument) nature rather than a technical (playing) nature. And it seems every once in a while someone approaches the topic of 'technical' discussion as if they were mistreated by someone on the list - there are numerous apologies for posting building / adjusting / modifying information, as if people get yelled at for bringing that discussion to this list. I haven't been a member for more than a couple fo years, but I have bnever seen the reason to be apologetic for posting technical 'builder' questions or comments - nobody ever yelled at me for doing it, and a lot of people respond to the threads. I think that much of the lack of advanced discussion on the list is because of the nature of the beast - the Hurdy-Gurdy is a limited-interest insturment, and nobody, either player or builder, wants to simply 'throw' their specialty knowledge out for general consumption. I guess that I feel that a seperate builders list would turn into an amateur hobby builders list right off the bat and stay that way. I know that it would be fun to discuss the trials and tribulations, and what does and doesn't work for us, but I fear we would not end up with a significant presence of master builders on the list, and it would become more just a 'social gathering spot' than a real resource for building (at least I don't think it would be a better resource than this list). Besides, as Melissa said, people on this list actually enjoy these discussions as well - And with the shape the world economy is in, I have a feeling a lot more people are going to be trying their hands at building a lot more of their own stuff (instruments and everything else) so keeping the largest community possible as diverse and useful as possible might not be the worst thing we can do. That being said, i would actually participate in a hobby-builders hang-out group, but I think I would still expect my best information to come from this list. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 9/29/2008 at 10:20 AM Melissa Kacalanos wrote: While I'm not a builder myself and have no plans to be one, I still find builders' discussions interesting, and enjoy reading them on this list. They help me better appreciate all the work that went into my hg. I'd vote for leaving these discussions here, since then I wouldn't have to check a separate group for them. Are there builders who are uninterested in this list's discussions of tunes and bands and such? In that case, I guess I could see why they'd want their own private space free from all that, so I can't force them to have their discussions here where I can conveniently eavesdrop on them. Melissa --- Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it make sense to set up a Google or Yahoo Group just for makers and those interested in building hurdy-gurdies? While I don't want to fracture the group on this list, I wonder if a dedicaed group might not attract those who don't want to participate on a general HG list. It would also allow those with an interest in detailed building questions to discuss as much as they want without overwhelming those who have an interest in playing only. My other thought is that often enough I've seen people say that they'd take such a discussion off list (like Marc proposes here), in which case the result of that discussion is lost to anyone else who might be interested, while a Google group would allow that to be recorded. If there is enough interest in a builders' group, I'd be willing to set it up. Best, Arle On Sep 29, 2008, at 3:13 AM, Reymen Marc wrote: Hello jim, I hear you have the same interests as I have. I'm a hg builder and i asked questions like yours to on the site but I discouverd to that the inerest for these items is minimal on this site. I'dd like to discuss these and others items like these but i think we can better do this not on the site... [EMAIL PROTECTED] marc
Re: [HG] lets talk soundboards...
Usually comes down to this - Spruce vs. Cedar. Folks use other materials, but I would guess that a strong majority of soundboards are made out of these two materials. I use Carpathian Spruce for soundboards in all my instruments (except those very early instruments where extant pieces call for a hardwood). Spruce will start out thinner and weaker in sound than cedar, so if you are wanting to rush an instrument but not cost yourself too much on the back end you use cedar. Most cedar tops will never attain the fine, edgy clarity that a spruce top will attain after a lot of aging. But there are exceptional pieces of cedar and marginal pieces of spruce, and everything is merely a statement of averages and bell-curve observations. Some people swear by cedar, others swear they would never use it. Most will use spruce if they have to, even if they consider it their second choice. I don't play well enough that any instrument's 'distinctive qualities' can be heard over my attempt to make sound. One day I will play well enough that I could tell and make use of the difference between the two. Till then, I suspect that a piece of Luan plywood doorskin would be sufficient to adequately display my performing skills... Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 9/19/2008 at 8:27 AM Jim Petersen wrote: any advise on soundboard material? i have always considered the difference in what is used for a soundboard? the main ones i think of are * stika spruce * cedar () * redwood * mahogany * koa not ever really being able to listen to any instrument made the exact same way with these different soundboards. all other variables being the same, what do you all think are the qualities of each? which do you prefer? of course this is all HG related... i have cedar on mine i love the color and it sounds good to me but compared to what? how about a curved soundboard compared to flat one? peace Grey Aengus (aka Jim) http://www.greyaengus.com often in error, never in doubt
Re[2]: [HG] Chants des Vielles festival (was 1660 pelican flight case)
Pretty instrument, but not particularly versatile, I wouldn't think. Set up just like my sinphone, except mine is chromatic, and this it seems is diatonic. No chien, just 2 bourdon and 2 chanter. Being more familiar with the technical aspects of the instrument than with matching music to a type of instrument, what specifically would you perform with this instrument? I know my sinphone has it's most 'proper' use in accompanying the Gregorian group at my church (and even then I have to concentrate and not try to use the accidentals), and perhaps this instrument would do the same job, but I can't help but think it is 'out of style' for an instrument that would be specialized for that kind of music. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 9/11/2008 at 4:54 PM Colin wrote: Don't understand these Euros. http://cgi.ebay.de/Drehleier-Hurdy-Gurdy-Laute-Lute-Vielle-a-Roue_W0QQitemZ130253631792QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130253631792_trkparms=72%3A823|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Is that 11,100 Euros or really 111.00? (That's about $200 US). I thought the , should be followed by three zeros for thousands. Is this a scam? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Chants des Vielles festival (was 1660 pelican flight case) hi . on google . write ebay germanythanwrite drehleier you will see 3 gurdy for sale , 3 people will be deceived .. ( one of those the one lutheback is at his third time listed on ebay / 3 people deceived ..ONLY FOR THIS ONE .. bye sylvain i think my english is better now .. lol - Original Message - From: sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Chants des Vielles festival (was 1660 pelican flight case) http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ6axPKdosQ - Original Message - From: sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Chants des Vielles festival (was 1660 pelican flight case) do one of yopu have the site or the name of a gurdy makerfrom spain or italy . he made gurdy and blue gurdy . his name is dinotta or dinetti or somethingnear than this ,, thanks sylvain - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:51 PM Subject: [HG] Chants des Vielles festival (was 1660 pelican flight case) Sylvain - You play central France bagpipe (musette du centre) as well as hurdy-gurdy? Me also (I only started the musette six months ago). I agree, it is wonderful to play for dancers and also to play with other enthusiasts of traditional French music. I hope you can get to a festival in France sometime. Les Brayauds (Fete du Volcaniques) in July (north of Clermont-Ferrand) is incredible, for one. But also here in North America there are occasional gatherings of central France music enthusiasts. Several of us who come to Over the Water are excited about French trad. Also, at Lark in the Morning camp in Mendocino (coastal northern California) at the beginning of August, there are a few very good players of hurdy-gurdy, musette and diatonic accordion. I'm very glad to hear you got to have that experience! Mitch -Original Message- From: sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:05 am Subject: Re: [HG] 1660 pelican flight case hi mich . yes this guy gave us a super show with his electric gurdy ,, he even be able to make kinda space sounds . like synthetiser with his gurdy .my wife told mewell sylvain ... for the first time i begin to like hurdy gurdy lol. i hope so . i will play it lolll. it was the time to meet personnaly peoples . i speaked with for 1 years here and by email , it was realy interesting . and for the first time i played mycenter bagpipe with gurdys , and for first time in my life 2 peoples had danced on my music . it was , fantastic experience for me . i was less nervous this time . i assume when people playfor first time for public . they are a bit nervous .. why are we very good ,alone , and make mistake in public lol! bye sylvain - Original Message - From: mitchgord@ aol.com To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [HG] 1660 pelican flight case Salut Sylvain - You must have gone to Chants des Vielles, the wonderful little hurdy-gurdy festival near Montreal that the Le Vent du Nord guys put on every year. Roz and I went to the first one about four years ago; haven't made it back, unfortunately. So much fun, and everyone so friendly. Ben Grossman is a fine player, incidentally, and very
Re[2]: [HG] Seven, Seven, testing, thwap thwap
Actually, I have taken up the electric lyre...a slightly modified 7th century Germanic 6 string that is almost a perfect copy of the Trossingen But my 9 year old daughter is building her new medieval gurdy, I am building mine, and my 8 year old is working on a 16-17 concert hammered dulcimer - life is good in the shop. My 9 year old is so wanting to take dad to Over-the-Water in 2009, it is one of her favorite things to talk about. Being from Arkansas, this is kind of a tall order, but I'm sure that it will happen. We would be there this year, except that I have a boy-child due to arrive mid to late September, and although he is probably going to stay around 18 years or so, we still have to make a fuss over him for the first part of his 'visit'. Besides, I would be out of favor with the master (mistress) of the house if I were absent for the blessed event... To see the lyre, and soon to follow the continuing adventures of a 9 year old luthier-in-training (time delay on documenting her projects caused by editing for content and continuity) you can go to www.nogy.net. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 8/30/2008 at 1:46 AM Martin Lodahl wrote: Geoffrey wrote: Anyone out there? Been awfully quiet (elmer fudd voice) Nah. We've all taken up the electric zither, instead. ;^) This is the season where a lot of us get most of our playing in. We post when we're not playing much. - Martin
Re[2]: [HG] Chanterelle string for low D
Outstanding, rich, entrancing sound. But that wheel looks to be about the size of a dinner plate Terriffic Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/7/2008 at 11:38 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Arle Pleased to report a bit of a breakthrough re. the low d chanter. I still have not found the make of the string I have that works best but a major improvement in harmonic resistance is gained by only applying cotton at the keybox edge of the wheel. This effectively bows the string further away from the bridge. It also imparts a more mellow tone.My first tentative scratchings can be seen here : http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individualvideoid=35597142 I'm sure I've heard this tune somewhere, does anyone have a title or discography for it? Cheers Neil http://www.hurdy-gurdy.org.uk - Original Message - From: Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Chanterelle string for low D Hi Neil, How do you define limited success? What hasn't worked with what you've tried? I admit that I can't help you here since I play in C/G with an octave chanter using viola strings with no problem, but you want to go a fourth lower and there I have no success. But in any event it would help to know what the problem you've faced is exactly. Part of the problem may be that you're really quite low. Balázs Nagy experimented with chanterelles in the range you suggest for a bass instrument and found that below a certain pitch (somewhere near where you're talking about, if I remember correctly), the vibrational envelope of the string gets too big for the tangents to effectively stop the string (the string bounces off them or something like that), so you end up with unclear intonation and other related problems. I don't remember all the details, but he ran into these problems when trying to pitch a Hungarian instrument down an octave, which would put it right near the range you're talking about. -Arle On May 28, 2008, at 2:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all I'm not usually one to plead for help but this problem is costing a lot of time and money so any help will be greatly appreciated. I've just built a three chantrelle gurdy 345mm scale length and am tuning it to normal D/G tuning . The third chanterelle is to be the next octave D down. Has anyone found a string to achieve a reasonable result at this pitch ? I've tried a lot of viola C strings with limited success. Regards Neil Brook -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.1/1470 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 07:20
Re[2]: [HG] Loose keys was Hurdy Gurdies in museums
If an instrument is playable it should be played. Nothing is eternal, everything goes through stages. I for one would not like to see the Trossingen Lyre 'restored', even though it just might be able to be with proper stabilizing methods. I like the fact that this instrument was played hard by it's owner, and now the glue joints are all non-existent and we can look into and around all the bits of it, and there are now a few very nice and beautifully authentic replicas out there that couldn't have been made if the time was taken to re-glue the soundbox closed and all that. And one might say that no matter how good the replica, it will never sound just like the thing it replicates even if it is made with absolute painstaking attention to detail - it is organic and thus will not sound exactly like the original. But I say even the original will not sound like the original in context - even if you had a perfectly preserved Strad, played and maintained and cared for from the beginning, no modifications made except new strings (there you go changing things again, right?), you still would not have an instrument that sounds like that very strad sounded in context when it was built or even a hundred years later. So I don't see the need to restore an instrument to playable to hear what it sounded like back then - it really will only tell you what it sounds like now. But you can get a better approximation of what an instrument sounded like when it was first built by 'replicating' the instrument with materials of appropriate age and preparation. A replica of the Colson built out of all the right materials will sound more like the Colson sounded back then than the Colson itself would sound now. You could not, however, build the replica if it was properly 'restored', as the restoration locks away secrets that an unrestored antique object often gives up freely. I don't have the emotionality of seeing a tool that no longer functions without a bunch of support get used as a tool to discover secrets that could not be discovered any other way. I have a 5th century iron Frankish axe, in very good condition, that I had examined by modern metallurgists by magna-flux and other scanning methods, and it was found to be structurally sound enough to be once again used (it is a Frankish throwing axe head). So to share the experience, I handed it off to a student of medieval woodworking that I know to make a handle for it, and now it is going to go to an event with me where we will sing and dnace around a fire and sprinkle it with water from Merlin's Well and make petitions to Herne and (well, you get the picture, but really, it's just a hunk of metal) and then we will throw it and it will stick in a stump and everyone will go away feeling like they had just interacted with 1600 years ago. But did they?. No, we don't know what the handle reall! y was made like, and so it will throw differently, and we won't know much more than we know from throwing a replica of similar weight. But if I sacrifice the piece, and we get good analysis of the metallurgy and the methods, of the materials and techniques, by cutting it open, by examining the structure and strata of the iron, then we know much more, and can build objects that give the same experience. The tool that has lived long past it's usefulness and into an age where it has no purpose except in sport, can divulge so much and enhance the study of said things more in it's careful deconstruction than it can by being 'restored' or 'conserved'. Even if it was the last axe of it's type on the planet, just having it to look at, and not unlocking it's secrets, doesn't help. There are Colsons and Pajots and many other instruments from long departed masters out there that are still playing, many in reasonably authentic shape and relatively unmodified. There are many modern instruments that sound as good, and look as sweet. We have the benefit of recording the knowledge of the modern makers down to the smallest detail, in audio/video/technical drawings and more. So continuing the lineage of a modern master will be easier, if someone cares to make the effort to record it. But what of the discoveries and important technologies in the old instruments? These things, while old, still enhance our modern science and art. We only have the objects of the older creators to tell us as much of the story of their builders knowledge and experience as we can know. So I don't really feel devastated when at the end of it's realistic useful life, an object is opened up like a book and allowed to reveal it's secrets, that is a better end to an instrument than b! eing transformed into a flowerbox and allowed to rot from the inside out until nothing remains but 20 coats of latex paint and a few fibers of wood 9or, in many instances, being lost forever in an attempt to make it function again).. Just my $.02 worth - I know, I have a whole
Re[2]: [HG] A passionate newbie full of questions
Unfortunately, in my experience in historical hobbying, only 1 regular Englishman gets to show up on the news at the recreation of Pochahontas first visit to London - but 415 native American princesses all get equal time in the spotlight. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/29/2008 at 9:01 AM Roy Trotter wrote: Does this mean that only one person (using French costume) in the entire continent is allowed to use a hurdy gurdy in reenactments? No, but only one getsto show up on the news. lol?
Re[2]: [HG] A passionate newbie full of questions
People don't produce a 'kit' for a professional quality instrument for one very important reason - you cannot mass produce the pieces for an instrument like this, it requires not only a knowledge of how to build a thing with wood and metal, but once you have it built, if you do not know how to make adjustments and do some important setup during the building process, you build into the instrument problems that cannot be fixed without tearing the thing apart, causing more problems. This is not like a guitar that can be set up after it is built and still sound good. You need to know a lot about it before you can build a good instrument. One thing you will find in common with those who have built first instruments as amateurs on this list - they are satisfied themselves with their work, but they will for the most part admit that their first tries were less than professional quality in performance, no matter how nice in appearance. And even the professionals will relate horror stories about the kits out there - and some of them are mechanically pretty nice, but there is no way to create an instrument of any real value from a bunch of die-cut and mass produced parts. I can tell you from my experience that I might have saved some dollars, but if you figure in my time, I didn't save a penny building my first instrument, and for the total invested, I could have bought a much finer instrument and been farther along in playing. But that was not my goal, and understand that I am in a minority - I set off not to have a good gurdy to play, but to learn what makes a gurdy work by doing. And in that I am in a very small minority - most people who want a kit or fully detailed, foolproof plans simply want a more economical way of getting a good instrument. And that is hard to do. And also remember, in this industry there are very few hobbyist builders producing a quantity of instruments cheap - most of the builders are professional builders. This is one of the most demanding lutherie endeavors, those who are professionals have usually learned over years, and gotten better by acquiring and studying instruments that have cost much, and equipped a shop with tools and materials that are very expensive. There is a limited market for gurdies, it is not like there is demand that far exceeds the current supply. It makes no sense financially for any of these builders to provide a kit that could produce an instument equal in quality to their own handwork for a fraction of the cost, even if they could. Gurdy building has to be a tough living, and if you look in the archives of this list even the pros have problems and instruments don't end up right sometimes and they have to be responsible. Asking them to sacrifice their living so that someone else might have a cheaper go at it isn't really fair. I have found this list to be firendly and professional, and I have found that if I ask the right questions, I will get limited but sufficient and accurate answers, even from those who are trying to protect their livelihood. The information and knowledge is shared, but in a limited way. This is not just a bunch of hobbyists and tinkerers, the people who are experts here use their knowledge to put food on the table, it is not free or public domain and cannot be expected to be. I have been given a lot of help here, sometimes begrudgingly, but it has been given. But I have had to do what so many of them have done - start with something that isn't optimal, but teaches me what I need to learn, then go out and study every website, ask every owner, study every instrument I can find, figure out some answers, build again and test out the theories, discard what doesn't work and try again, study more, repeat ad nauseum. As much as I love the idea of building, I cannot see any way that you can just pick up a box of parts and assemble a performance quality instrument on the first try, and maybe perhaps not even on the second, and by the third try you already exceed by far the cost of a reasonable professional performance instrument. So unless your passion is for building as much as or more than playing, building is not an economical answer for a novice gurdyist. It has been said that 'building gurdies is like eating potato chips, you can't have just one' - and I agree, but only if you love building. And if you do, then there is little chance you will buy a professional instrument anyway, you will end up doing what tthe pros did to teach themselves, and after a bunch of instruments you too will be 'professional grade'. But not right off the bat. Just my $.02 worth Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/27/2008 at 2:42 PM William Gull wrote: Thanks for the timely response to my post!!! I am jointly working on this project with a mechanical engineer with a great deal of wood working experience so I have no doubt that we could piece together something on our
Re: [HG] Chanterelle string for low D
OK, this is all from my head, and not from experience. At 345, there is a range of string pitches that can be achieved 'successfully' (that means not just sounding on the open, but being controllable by the tangents.) You can either add mass to the string to lower it's tone, or add length, or drop tension. Since you can't add length, you have to add mass or drop tension. And when you add mass, you get a bigger spatial displacement of the strings at a given tension. You can compensate for this in some ways by getting a bigger string and raising it to a higher tension, or getting a smaller string and running at the same tension. Sometimes the material of the string is key - but not above physics. So if you find a string that masses less, can take a higher tension, and still remain at the desired pitch, you might want to try it. I have had luck on some of my other insttruments dropping pitch by using Savarez Alliance harp strings - the carbon fiber ones. They are lighter and smaller than equivalent toned strings in gut or nylon or whatever. Don't know if they would work for gurdy, but might be worth a try - they are only moderately priced so the experiment won't be a dreadful loss. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/28/2008 at 7:50 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all I'm not usually one to plead for help but this problem is costing a lot of time and money so any help will be greatly appreciated. I've just built a three chantrelle gurdy 345mm scale length and am tuning it to normal D/G tuning . The third chanterelle is to be the next octave D down. Has anyone found a string to achieve a reasonable result at this pitch ? I've tried a lot of viola C strings with limited success. Regards Neil Brook
Re: [HG] A passionate newbie full of questions
I am going to give a slightly different perspective to this issue, one I have given before. I am in the minority here, as I consider myself an amateur player of several instruments, not a professional, and while I enjoy getting better, I also enjoy everything else that has to do with the older instruments - the lore, the construction, the materials and techniques, thedesign and aesthetics, the personalizations and the integration of new technologies into the instruments. And I like to learn by doing, and I like to build things as a tool to learn. I built my first Sinphone (medieval box predecessor to a true hurdy gurdy) without plans, without a model to go by, with only some basic knowledge of structures, a whole lot of tool knowledge (and a bunch of tools) and 1 piece of information - 354mm. The vibrating string length. It is amazing what you can do with just that one piece of information. I used woods I knew to be acceptable from some of my previous instrument experiments. I experimented, and with some work I came up with an instrument that I enjoy playing and some folks enjoy listening to. I play a few French tunes, and I do the unthinkable - I play a bunch of bagpipe standards, things like 'The Minstrel Bard and Amazing Grace, and I play harmony parts on some old English folk songs and I even have my own cover of Smoke on the Water. In other words, I do not fall into the category that most folks here fall into - students and performers of traditional Hurdy Gurdy. So while a professional would probably find my first instrument a dismal failure, I find it a spectacular success. I learned so much from that instument that I never would have learned by reading about or looking at someone else's work. And the second instrument I built, which was really just a technology tester for what will be a much nicer, late medieval piece of my own design, turned out better by leaps. So if my goal was to acquire an instrument on the level of Wolfgang or Cali and Alden's offerings, I failed miserably. But I acquired in my experiment so much more. I also have to say that I do not get discouraged. I will not let the moderate quality and excessive finickiness of my first instrument put me off from continuing to study and develop my talents, and one day I would like to be able to play proficiently some of the music I have seen videos for from OTW, but that will come and I have patience. I had made plans to be at OTW this year, but in a real surprise circumstance, my wife and I discovered we are going to have another baby in Spetember sometime, so I have to put that trip on hold for yet another year. But hopefully next year, if nothing major gets in the way, I will be bringing my current project and letting some of the experts critique it - that is how I like to learn and how I like to 'network'. And maybe someone more proficient than I will help me find the instrument's voice. So if you are the unique kind of individual that likes the ride as much as the destination, and you don't consider failures while learning to be anything but successes in disguies, then I whole-heartedly suggest cutting wood, making mistakes, building a few 'cats with digestive tract problems', having some leughs, and learning a ton in the process. If you like to figure things out yourself, it is possible. There are several reasonable plans, and a few books with plans and construction articles. You can, if you have hand skills and a technical mind, work through the problems and build something that will be, at least to you, a wonderful thing. But if you are mainly a performer, mostly interested in playing a really nice instrument, then I suggest just buying one. There are not, on the market today, any kits that will yield right from the box an instrument of the caliber any of the professional HG luthiers are building today. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/26/2008 at 10:53 PM William Gull wrote: Greetings unto the list!! My name William Gull and I reside in Nevada, Iowa and I am a first time poster to this list.. I am a silversmith and hand engraver who does historical reenactments for both recreation and and as a market for my hand work. It was through my love of both medieval and 18Th century music that I was introduced to the wonders of the hurdy gurdy. Since then it has been an ever growing passion to learn to play one. First things first, before learning to play I need to find an instrument to play on. Being a hands on sort of person, I have decided I would like to try building one. I know this will be a definite challenge, but it is one I am willing to undertake. Like any new project I undertake, I am starting by doing research and gathering as much information as I can. There in lies the problem. While I am slowly collecting and reading as many books on all aspects of the hurdy gurdy as I can get my hands on, there
Re[2]: [HG] New to the list with some questions
A diatonic gurdy has the keys arranged in the step pattern of a major scale. Since most of the modern mountain dulcimers I have seen are diatonic, fretted to a major scale (with perhaps one or two 'accidental' frets), you should be able to work with it immediately. If you play any of the other. more ancient and traditional, tunings for the instrument (the common intervals for a Langspil or Scheitholt are different from our current setup) you will have to determine new positions for your keyslides to get the same tuning. The Chromatic gurdies (with the second row of 'accidental' keys) is set up to play the entire range of notes in pretty much 2 octaves. But even though the 'keyboard' is arranged in a pattern that looks like a piano keyboard, it is not exactly the same. If the open notes on your chanters are G, then the key tones and positions correspond to a piano keyboard layout. Any other open chanter tuning will give you notes that do not correspond - for example the note just below a cluster of 2 accidental notes on a piano keyboard is C (always), but it is only C if your open chanters are tuned to G. In this way it is more like a guitar or other fretted stringed instrument that you can change keys by changing only the string tuning. As a piano player, I tend to keep my chanters in G, because visually I recognize what I should be doing. But that is not the optimal way to play the HG, you learn it by it's own rules, not by comparing it to another instrument. The movable tangents on the keys allow fine tuning and adjustment, and allow what most instruments with either fixed bridges (like a piano) or fixed frets (like a guitar) don't allow - relatively easy changing of temperament. Yes, the general characteristic of the note is determined in manufacture for every key on the gurdy - the location of the keyslide determines the note (if you tune your chanter to G, the first diatonic key will be placed at the position that a fret would be for a whole step up in tone - in this instance A). Moving the tangents (the little 'fingers' that press on the string) gives you a fairly wide amount of adjustment for each note, so you can tune up or down several cents from the position standard. Several tangent designs are limited by only rotating around their back end, but some new tangent designs also allow the tangents to both pivot and to extend or retract toward or away from the string, to allow you to both change the tuning of each key,and t! o balance the key movement even if you get a tangent angle that is a little extreme on a key or two. This is a machine that is a whole bunch of comrpomises rolled into a finicky nightmare of maintenance and adjustment, but luckily most things are adjustable as individual parts, instead of having just a few adjustments for the whole system. So you can get very close in almost every adjustment, but in the end it is the compormises, the inability to perfectly control every note and sound interaction on this instrument, that gives it it's unique character and it's unforgettable sound, and that gives the player so many options and variables in playing and voicing that other instruments don't provide. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/27/2008 at 8:03 AM George Leverett-Altarwind Music wrote: Hello: My, there have been some many wonderful replies to this post. On a 12 note model (assuming an HG without the 2nd row of chromatic notes): yes, the keys are set up just like the fret arrangement of a mountain dulcimer (assuming the dulcimer doesn't have the 6 1/2 fret; also assuming that the scale length of the HG is accurately intoned). George Leverett Altarwind Music - Original Message - From: Matthew Bullis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 12:43 PM Subject: [HG] New to the list with some questions Hello, this is Matthew Bullis from Phoenix, AZ. I discovered this instrument last week, when someone on the autoharp e-mail list had questions about it. I did an internet search, found the Wikipedia entry for it, and found a demonstration of the instrument as a video presentation. It sounds interesting. The pieces I've heard though haven't been the kind of music I play. I've found several builders of HGs, including the owner of this mailing list. One builder has a HG which has the keys in a fixed position, with the notes like a piano keyboard. These you'd probably play with your left hand, and I'm not even a very good piano player with my right hand. Then there are the kits you can build, or buy them finished for you. These say to adjust the keys until they're in tune. The kit one has twelve keys. If you have to adjust them, do they still fall within specific notes, or can you line them up with the twelve notes you'd like to have? Would I be able to align them so that it played like a mountain dulcimer? Or, could I choose to skip a note and align
Re: [HG] BUILD: Key placements (2)
That's the wonderous benefit of building. If you see a change that suits you, and the instrument will be for you, then make the change. The position of the tangent when it hits the string is the important part, if you need to thin down slips to squeeze them in, to make funny bent sticks to accomodate the spacing, heck even create a 3rd row of holes for a few keyslips to get the notes you think you need to play, and you are comfortable you can play them where you put them, then grab a saw and a file and hack away. Instruments evolve because people make subtle or not-so-subtle changes to the status quo. If those changes are beneficial and workable, they often in short order become part of the new 'status quo'. If they are a bad idea, they don't see the light of day for long. I know that I was able to put 2 octaves in my sinphone, all the keys on the right 'layers'. I had to use purpleheart for the slips at the top, because it is very strong and stable even when thin, but I squeezed them in there. Just took some judicious filework, holding the tongue just right, and a few moments of prayers, but in the end, it worked out for me, and that is who I built the instrument for. So be creative in finding solutions that satisfy your need as a player, if you are building. After all, I am assuming that one of the reasons you are building is to create 'your' instrument. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 4/22/2008 at 1:54 PM John Tappan wrote: To All If this posts twice, please ignore one or the other. In studying the keybox layout on the plans from Michel Pignols book, the F5 key is located on the upper (accidental) row of keys. I know that space is tight toward the wheel end of the keybox, and Im guessing that its moved up for that reason. Im also guessing thats why theres no F5 (F5#) key in sightjust not enough space to get it in. I gather by reading this list that those really high notes may not be used all that often. Is this a standard/traditional key arrangement, or something that Mssr Pignol just opted for? It seems a bit quirky, but that would be in keeping with the character of the hurdy-gurdy itselfits all pretty quirky. Some builders refer to a full two octave range, which should include that last accidental note. Is it primarily a matter of narrowing the key blanks and making smaller holes to make room (assuming the tangent can still be adjusted properly)? And even so, is it worth the effort to make those changes? Thanks for responses in advance. John T
Re[2]: [HG] Metal strings for HG
OK, all the talk about experimenting with and playing in different temperaments has got me thinking about other instruments. I just finished an electro-accoustic Germanic Rote, the original of which was dated to 581 AD. Probably not tuned in equal temperament. But was it tuned pythagorean, or some other form? There are some real temperament experts here, and this instrument, since it is not stopped or fretted, seems like a perfect way to experiment. It has 6 strings, all open without any fretting (I can get some intervals in the way a Jouhiko is stopped, and I can draw a primary harmonic at 50% of the string, but it is not a fretted or stopped instrument) It is tuned pentatonic, A3, C4, D4, E4, G4, A4 I use a Korg Chromatic tuner to tune it, and I think that since it contains both a 4th and a seventh, which if I understand are the most different between modern equal and older just temperaments, I will need to do small adjustments. I am tuning equal at A4 = 440, and my tuner will let me see cents and is accurate (I can tune by pludding the instrument in, so I avoid outside noises). Can someone give me a cents difference for each note that would put this instrument into a temperament that would be plausible for the time period that it comes from? Or help me to figure out how to develop that set of values? Thanks Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 4/15/2008 at 3:55 PM Oscar Picazo Ruiz wrote: Beware if you use shrinking tube when applying a lighter... the heat may fuse the core of synthetic strings; apply little heat several times until the tube shrinks to fit I ruined one (expensive) string like that. 2008/4/11 Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are of course correct that they aren't the same although it's inconsequential for this particular point: real gut or synthetic gut are both flexible and won't break when going over the ear. The contrast is against a metal core, which can break in this manner. I actually use both, depending on the particular string, for the same reason. -Arle On Apr 11, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Simon Wascher wrote: Hello, Am 11.04.2008 um 04:56 schrieb Arle Lommel: I switch to a wound synthetic gut string Am 11.04.2008 um 13:11 schrieb Arle Lommel: On the other hand, using a gut core also prevents the problem. I think it would be helpfull to distinguish between the synthetic strings that are used as replacement for gut and real gut. Otherwise the wrong imression may occure to the unexperienced reader that it is gut, as in real gut. Simon
[HG] temperament question
Sorry, sent before I cleaned it up or changed the subject line. I'll try it again OK, all the talk about experimenting with and playing in different temperaments has got me thinking about other instruments. I just finished an electro-accoustic Germanic Rote, the original of which was dated to 581 AD. Probably not tuned in equal temperament. But was it tuned pythagorean, or some other form? There are some real temperament experts here, and this instrument, since it is not stopped or fretted, seems like a perfect way to experiment. It has 6 strings, all open without any fretting (I can get some intervals in the way a Jouhiko is stopped, and I can draw a primary harmonic at 50% of the string, but it is not a fretted or stopped instrument) It is tuned pentatonic, A3, C4, D4, E4, G4, A4 I use a Korg Chromatic tuner to tune it, and I think that since it contains both a 4th and a seventh, which if I understand are the most different between modern equal and older just temperaments, I will need to do small adjustments. I am tuning equal at A4 = 440, and my tuner will let me see cents and is accurate (I can tune by pludding the instrument in, so I avoid outside noises). Can someone give me a cents difference for each note that would put this instrument into a temperament that would be plausible for the time period that it comes from? Or help me to figure out how to develop that set of values? Thanks Chris
Re: [HG] crank knob size
The knob needs to 'roll' in your palm, and needs to be big enough so that when you put pressure on it with your palm it is comfortable. It needs to be controllable when you use any part of your palm from the web of your thumb to the heel by your pinky. It needs to be 'deep' enough that your fingers don't hit the crank arm when you go past it, big enough around that it doesn't feel like your fingertips have to pass each other to get a secure grip on it or that you are 'balling' up your fist, and the neck should end up where your thumb is in the recess when you gently curve your thumb around the knob - your thumb is the 'hook' that keeps your hand from leaving the knob during periods of 'enthusiastic' cranking. I have big hands, and the knob on my gurdy is about 1.6 inches, and is probably just about 1/8 too small to be optimal for my hand, but it is not at all uncomfortable and it is very functional. I am not in any way an expert, but these are my observations and they work as a set-up for me... Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 3/5/2008 at 6:39 AM Barbara Currier wrote: Hi, all, I need to order a new crank knob for my little ruin of a gurdy my husband is working on. I have a source, but I need to specify a size. The old knob is too small at about 1.25 or 3.3 cm in diameter. I don't have any HGs around to compare and have limited playing experience. I don't have dainty hands, but they are lady-hands. Is another half-inch, or 1.2 cm, too much? It needs to have some neck to it, how long should that be? What is the current ergonomic wisdom? Thank you for any help, Barbara
Re[2]: [HG] Alden's rant on iconography, and a challenge
Where the buyer tried to play it, but finally, giving up in disgust, took the top off the thing and put flowers in it... Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/14/2008 at 11:43 PM Colin wrote: And somebody built it and sold it on eBay? Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Jon Redpath To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:10 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Alden's rant on iconography, and a challenge In Britain and France a great deal of the Church carvings I have seen have been fairly old. All the instruments appear to be very stylised, I suspect that the Chinese whispers effect had a lot to do with how all these different instruments appear. A Clarsach player saw a piper playing a new bagpipe ( which was really a Shawm), who told a sac but player about it ,who passed the information on to a priest, who new someone was in town that could draw. The tramp drew the picture, in exchange for a drink, and gave it to the priest. The priest then went along to where his new abbey was being built and gave the drawing to the stone mason and told him to incorporate it in the church. The mason then gave the drawing to the apprentice, who turned the drawing upside down! This is not total fiction, a very famous chapel near where I live was added to like this over the many years of construction. See http://www.rosslynchapel.org.uk/ In my eyes, and they are pretty old, Alden is right JON Jocelyn Demuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While Alden's question to draw a guitar is an interesting, I don't think it's an apt comparison. While very few of us on this list are graphic artists, the guy who did this little miniature was. It looks like a 14th century miniature done with a fair amount of lapiz, a very expensive paint. No patron would have given a hack this expensive material to work with. I suppose if you asked a bunch of American graphic artists to draw a stradlater and they came up with something looking more like a cello, that would prove the point admirably. In my experience, which I think is the opposite of Alden's - most people completely discount iconography. I would not suggest that iconography is completely trustworthy just that rather than dismiss it because it isn't well drawn, you have to look at many pictures to see what was drawn. I think what is depicted is probably more accurate than how well it was depicted anyway. In my medieval house experiment, I built windows with shutters. I noticed in the pictures that the shutters were full of these strange, off center hinges and nothing seemed to be straight. We didn't think much about this since perpective is always problematic in medieval pictures. My husband tried to build shutters that opened and closed in a more modern arc. It was impossible. First of all since all the windows were small and in a small structure, to get them to open, we had to add many hinges so that the window could open fully without banging into a corner or a shelf. One shutter had more hinges than the other which made them hang slightly crookedly. When we were done, we had something that without trying looked very much like many of the medieval pictures we had assumed were badly drawn. Well, that's it for me - - happy gurdy hunting. I guess the good news is that the guy in the picture is actually playing it rather than tuning and recottoning so I guess the instrument made music, which is good. - Original Message - From: Jon Redpath To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Alden's rant on iconography, and a challenge Colin, its a sort of Scottish Smallpipe made for Americans, with lots of knobs and switches so you can change key quickly. JON Colin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stratocaster, is that the two door or four door model? Heard of it, wouldn't know one if I walked into it, let alone sketch one. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:29 AM Subject: [HG] Alden's rant on iconography, and a challenge OK, you asked for it. ;-) Arle pretty much made my points for me already, so I'll just say this: In scholarly circles there is, perhaps, a dedication to the iconography that is unwarranted. The scholars go on and on about how the instrument shown in this source has this feature while this one doesn't showing that [insert your conclusion here]. This is all very well, but any time a conclusion is reached by serious study of the available drawings, paintings, engravings and sculptures, there should be a big disclaimer attached that the details of the source materials are suspect. We treat the iconography as if it's a photograph, because we're used to that level of truth in our world. So here's the challenge. Take out a pencil and blank paper. Draw a Fender Stratocaster electric guitar from memory. This is probably the most common instrument in the modern age, and
Re: [HG] Standards related to hg key buttons
Assuming the same scale length, (string length), the standards are set by math, not arbitrarily. One apparently standard string length is 345 mm. That sets the tangent positions, and thus the key spacing. How the keys are finished off, of course, will give you a little different feel, but the key spacing is as set for HG as the keys are on a piano or the frets on a guitar. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/13/2008 at 6:53 AM Melvin Dorries wrote: I am wondering if there is a standard size for key buttons and their spacing? Seems to me that it would be nice to pick up instruments made by various builders and have the fingering positions all be in the same place. Assuming the same scale length is used of course. Does anyone know if standards have been established or proposed and where I may get them? Thanks Mel Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[HG] Can someone identify this instrument?
http://www.threeleos.com/enlum1.jpg Guy number 2 in the lower half. Is this a strange lute thing, or is it a bad depiction of a gurdy? That is either a crank or a cranked neck. Any guesses? Cause if it is some general shape of gurdy, just without details depicted, I think I have found what I am looking for in size and shape and soundholes and such. Thanks Chris
Re[2]: [HG] Can someone identify this instrument?
Could this be a type of sinphone, with the works inside a slightly waisted and round-ended box? Is it just a fancification based on someone who knew certain instruments but maybe didn't know anything about gurdies? I like the body shape, the figure 8 instruments like the early crwth kind of speak to me. But rant on, Alden, I am very interested to hear your take. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/13/2008 at 2:00 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup, it's a hurdy-gurdy - one of the classic illuminated depictions thereof. Nice color! I've only ever seen this in b/w. This is a good reminder not to take iconographic sources too literally. I have a nice rant prepared for this occasion if anyone is interested... Alden http://www.threeleos.com/enlum1.jpg Guy number 2 in the lower half. Is this a strange lute thing, or is it a bad depiction of a gurdy? That is either a crank or a cranked neck. Any guesses? Cause if it is some general shape of gurdy, just without details depicted, I think I have found what I am looking for in size and shape and soundholes and such. Thanks Chris
Re[6]: [HG] purpose of my new project.
I imagine that if you keep the bearings in use regularly, you will not have a problem. But if you allow the instrument to sit for a prolonged amount of time and then try to use it, you will see problems. Especially with a regular carbon steel or iron axle. I will probably be using either a regular silver-steel machining steel, or some form of stainless stock to turn my axle from. I know it is not period, but I don't think that the material the shaft was made of (other than how round it was made) would make a difference in the sound. But then again, if you don't get a perfect polish on the shaft, maybe the surface textrue of the shaft running in the bearing would give some small but important tonal difference. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/10/2008 at 12:24 PM Reymen Marc wrote: I 'dd like to see that iron axe surely covered with oxidation a layer of 0,1mm iron gives a0,3mm thick layer of rust in dia: 0,1mm dia is 0,3mm more dia in rust. must act as epoxie never hadany problems with lignum vitae.. Marc - Original Message - From: Curtis Berak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Re[4]: [HG] purpose of my new project. Some years ago I visited Thomas Norwood a luthier in Paris. He has made 48 superb Baroque hurdy gurdies up to now. Lignum Vitae was the material he chose for his bearings. He told me that after a few years went by he began to have trouble with them seizing up. he took back all the instuments made this way and changed them to something else. He then discontinued the use of Lignun Vitae as his bearing material. In my own experience I was restoring a 1749 Pierre Louvet. The knob was completely frozen. In trying to free it the axle and knob came out as one. It was as if the axle was epoxied to the knob. I was forced to chisel out this material which turned out to be an old Lignum Vitae bearing. Curtis Berak --- Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bearings are already prepared, Lignum Vitae (from my oldest stock, 4 pieces that made up a shaft bearing in an old steamship. This wood is pressure, oil and steam 'seasoned', and is tough and stable. I made a roofing hammer head out of a piece, had to use metal milling equipment to make the hammer head, and used it through a whole season of building a large addition on my parents house. It was an amazing hammer - it is now the property of a close friend who still uses it to this day. I have some new Lignum Vitae on the shelves for not-so-critical projects, but this one gets only the very best. Was Lignum Vitae a European wood available at that time? I thought it was indigneous to the West Indes, so at that time (The late 1300s - early 1400s in Europe it probably would not have been known. I was thinking perhaps oil soaked linden or ash, as both were strong and common woods of the time, might have been used as bearings. I will use Lignum Vitae because it maintains the spirit of the build, and I think that it will start out similar to what might have been used, only maintain that standard longer. Again, I am not going for the experience of being a medieval owner of a medieval instrument. I want the sound experience, and I want to be able to maintain that experience over time without a lifetime of mechanical maintenance. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/7/2008 at 9:02 AM Reymen Marc wrote: Doing this and wanting only the best, I think you MUST use lignum vitae bearings...like in those days... marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re[2]: [HG] purpose of my new project. I will likely build with a laminated wheel. I know by firsthand experience what a solid maple wheel can sound like when true, and what it can sound like when off. And if it is rosined properly, the end/edge grain difference is minimal. I fear I have been misunderstood - I fear people think I am after the shabby, almost unlistenable sound of the average early peasant gurdy. I don't think that all medieval instruments had to sound bad, in fact, I believe that just like today there were all sorts of levels of instruments and builders, and that there was a Nagy or a Hackmann back then, doing exceptional work with the materials and techniques available, and turning out exceptional instruments limited only because the technology of the time didn't include all the adjunce techniques we now can use to further mold the sound of a good instrument. My point in all this being that it was possible to have a good, or even great, sounding instrument in the middle ages, but we tend to spend a lot of time learning how to make changes to an instruments tone by materials choice, preparation (top carving and using depth calipers to perfect every thickness, nylon or roller
Re[6]: [HG] purpose of my new project.
That is the wood. Hard, dense, grows moderately slowly. Pretty blue flowers on the tree, that turn into a drop shaped orange seedpods. Takes a while to cure. It is a hard wood to work, doesn't turn well except with the sharpest of tools. Can be mechanically polished to a high gloss (only scraping and rubbing, no chemicals or wax). Doesn't absorb anything very well. A block in almost any shape will sink immediately if placed in water. Has a hardness of more than 4000 on the Janka scale (oak is about 1800). It is not the friendliest wood in the world to hand tools. But it has tremendous stability and resistance to deformind under pressure. That is why it made a good hammer head. That and it is almost as heavy as the steel in a regular head. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/8/2008 at 9:28 AM Angela Höfer wrote: chris, is this the lignum vitae you are talking about? (this is a babelfish-translation from a german site) angela Kind Hardwood botanischer name Guaiacum Spp. Guaiacum guatemalense botanische family Zygophyllaceae Occurrence South America, Central America and west India. From three species one wins, which from the southern Florida over of the Bahamas until the Jamaica, Cuba and west India, from Mexico over central America until Venezuela and Colombia to grow. Protection of species agreement is subject to the commercial monitoring after the which hanging toner. Retracting and extending must be approved. Appearance Height to 10 m, diameters to 0,5 m. Blackbrown - yellowish touched, split pin dark-yellow, darkgreenish-brown or almost black also closely wechseldrehwuechsigem fiber direction and a fine, even texture. Pores small, absent-minded. Increase zones not clearly. Characteristics Darrdichte is on the average about 1200 kg/m³. Wood dries slowly and heavily and is inclined to tearing. Works moderately, had in all categories however outstanding values and a very high pressure strength. Processing The wood is very hard, inflexibly and much heavyworks on. Unsuitable to bending to work on and cut very with difficulty by machine. With difficulty to stick, however polish assumes well. Wood preservation Extremely age-resistingly and resistant to wood preservation treatment. Use Because of its self-lubricating characteristics for maritime purposes and hydraulic engineering, furthermore for car wheels, guidance, castors, gear wheels, balls, schlaegel, hammers, tools, textile industry Specific gravity 1.20 - 1.40 Pressure strength 80 - 126 N/mm² Bending strength 141 - 177 N/mm² N. hardens Brinell 12% humidity H BII = 155 - 165, H BI = 90 N/mm² German * venezuelanisches Pockholz English * Lignum Vitae * Verawood French * Gaieac Netherlands * Pokhout * Vera Pok Am 07.02.2008 um 21:56 schrieb Chris Nogy: The bearings are already prepared, Lignum Vitae (from my oldest stock, 4 pieces that made up a shaft bearing in an old steamship. This wood is pressure, oil and steam 'seasoned', and is tough and stable. I made a roofing hammer head out of a piece, had to use metal milling equipment to make the hammer head, and used it through a whole season of building a large addition on my parents house. It was an amazing hammer - it is now the property of a close friend who still uses it to this day. I have some new Lignum Vitae on the shelves for not-so-critical projects, but this one gets only the very best. Was Lignum Vitae a European wood available at that time? I thought it was indigneous to the West Indes, so at that time (The late 1300s - early 1400s in Europe it probably would not have been known. I was thinking perhaps oil soaked linden or ash, as both were strong and common woods of the time, might have been used as bearings. I will use Lignum Vitae because it maintains the spirit of the build, and I think that it will start out similar to what might have been used, only maintain that standard longer. Again, I am not going for the experience of being a medieval owner of a medieval instrument. I want the sound experience, and I want to be able to maintain that experience over time without a lifetime of mechanical maintenance. Chris
Re[8]: [HG] purpose of my new project.
Lignum Vitae IS Ironwood. Beech is very soft if you are thinking pressure and wear resistance. I really don't know what other woods to try. Oak was popular, and willow, and elm, for other projects. But for bearings? I don't know what was used on windmills, grainmills, or water wheels. Might be good to find out (though I wouldn't be surprised it was and oversized oak bearing packed with oil-soaked tow. Fine for larger things, not so good for an instrument like ours. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/8/2008 at 5:00 PM Leonard Williams wrote: How about ironwood or beech? The latter I'm sure was available in medieval Europe. Regards, Leonard Williams _ [: :] / | | \ | | | | (_==_) !~¿ On 2/8/08 8:03 AM, Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is the wood. Hard, dense, grows moderately slowly. Pretty blue flowers on the tree, that turn into a drop shaped orange seedpods. Takes a while to cure. It is a hard wood to work, doesn't turn well except with the sharpest of tools. Can be mechanically polished to a high gloss (only scraping and rubbing, no chemicals or wax). Doesn't absorb anything very well. A block in almost any shape will sink immediately if placed in water. Has a hardness of more than 4000 on the Janka scale (oak is about 1800). It is not the friendliest wood in the world to hand tools. But it has tremendous stability and resistance to deformind under pressure. That is why it made a good hammer head. That and it is almost as heavy as the steel in a regular head. Chris
Re[10]: [HG] purpose of my new project.
Yew? I use it to make the bows for my rebecs and jouhikos and crwths (and my English Longbows when I can find big enough and nice enough pieces), but wouldn't it be too soft and easily distorted to make a bearing? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/9/2008 at 1:26 AM Simon Wascher wrote: Hello, Am 08.02.2008 um 23:32 schrieb Chris Nogy: I really don't know what other woods to try. Oak was popular, and willow, and elm, for other projects. But for bearings? I don't know what was used on windmills, grainmills, or water wheels. Ash, alder were used for bearings besides oak and elm. Taxus might be worth a try. Some bits of info can be found in old encyclopedias like the Krünitz (http://www.kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/ ; in german). Might be good to find out (though I wouldn't be surprised it was and oversized oak bearing packed with oil-soaked tow. Fine for larger things, not so good for an instrument like ours. Read about Oak lubricated with lard. S. --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
Re[4]: [HG] purpose of my new project.
The bearings are already prepared, Lignum Vitae (from my oldest stock, 4 pieces that made up a shaft bearing in an old steamship. This wood is pressure, oil and steam 'seasoned', and is tough and stable. I made a roofing hammer head out of a piece, had to use metal milling equipment to make the hammer head, and used it through a whole season of building a large addition on my parents house. It was an amazing hammer - it is now the property of a close friend who still uses it to this day. I have some new Lignum Vitae on the shelves for not-so-critical projects, but this one gets only the very best. Was Lignum Vitae a European wood available at that time? I thought it was indigneous to the West Indes, so at that time (The late 1300s - early 1400s in Europe it probably would not have been known. I was thinking perhaps oil soaked linden or ash, as both were strong and common woods of the time, might have been used as bearings. I will use Lignum Vitae because it maintains the spirit of the build, and I think that it will start out similar to what might have been used, only maintain that standard longer. Again, I am not going for the experience of being a medieval owner of a medieval instrument. I want the sound experience, and I want to be able to maintain that experience over time without a lifetime of mechanical maintenance. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/7/2008 at 9:02 AM Reymen Marc wrote: Doing this and wanting only the best, I think you MUST use lignum vitae bearings...like in those days... marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 9:45 PM Subject: Re[2]: [HG] purpose of my new project. I will likely build with a laminated wheel. I know by firsthand experience what a solid maple wheel can sound like when true, and what it can sound like when off. And if it is rosined properly, the end/edge grain difference is minimal. I fear I have been misunderstood - I fear people think I am after the shabby, almost unlistenable sound of the average early peasant gurdy. I don't think that all medieval instruments had to sound bad, in fact, I believe that just like today there were all sorts of levels of instruments and builders, and that there was a Nagy or a Hackmann back then, doing exceptional work with the materials and techniques available, and turning out exceptional instruments limited only because the technology of the time didn't include all the adjunce techniques we now can use to further mold the sound of a good instrument. My point in all this being that it was possible to have a good, or even great, sounding instrument in the middle ages, but we tend to spend a lot of time learning how to make changes to an instruments tone by materials choice, preparation (top carving and using depth calipers to perfect every thickness, nylon or roller bearings, things like that). The technology available in period could produce a very precise machine. But it would be limited to a certain type of sound because builders had not yet discovered all the adjunct technologies that we use today to affect and fine tune the instruments. These options simply were not available in earlier times. Thus my question about curved vs flat top. There is a significant difference in the sound between the two. If the curved top would have been an option at the time gurdies first were fitted with trompettes, then a great builder, recognizing that this was a way to improve the sound, would have fitted the instrument with a curved soundboard. But if the knowledge stopped at flat tops, then the builder would have built the best flat topped instrument he could, and the instrument would be limited by that design characteristic, but could still have had a nice, pleasant, workable and usable tone. It just wouldn't have sounded like a curved top instrument. A person performing at a high state function for a Crown would have spent time preparing his instrument, greasing and truing and doing what needed to be done to make it sound right. It might not have stayed that way, but it would have been able to sound good for at least a while. The 'best that the instrument could sound' is the sound I am wanting to recreate, and if using modern materials and techniques can allow me to kind of 'lock in' that sound, then I am not against doing so. But an instrument that has the visual and accoustic properties of the very best instrument of the period at it's very best sound, that is what I am after. (Oh, and it simply cannot be a Henry or a Bosch. It just can't. Non-negotiable.) It is a rather stuck-up and elite pursuit, but I want to have the very, very best medieval gurdy around, and to be able to truly and accurately demonstrate how good that instrument could sound in a period atmosphere playing period music in a period way. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/6/2008 at 1
Re[2]: [HG] Re: hurdy gurdy kits...or the DIY fanatics folly.
You hit on it exactly in your last statement. The gurdy comes in many flavors, they have tonal differences, but the differences are not as many as the similarities. And for those who have spent a lifetime learning to play a gurdy, they have come to know the sounds and tonal components that make a gurdy a gurdy. Those sounds and tonal components come from years of tradition, from the way the instrument was steered throughout the ages. People here give their recomendations according to the playability, the agility, the usability of the instruments in a performance venue. They compare them to the work of the Hackmans, to Nagy, to the other really fine builders instruments, and they are trying to get people not to settle for something limited by design, but to assure folks get a world of gurdy opportunity. They want you to have the best tool for the job. And in that respect, they are usually quite right about kits and plans. You can buy a cheap violin from China, and if you are lucky and get a professional to set it up, you can play the violin parts of a piece recognizably, and even sound something like a violin. But even if you are the finest virtuoso in the world, the music you produce is both from your skill and from the instrument, and a surprising amount of what comes out comes from the instrument without you telling it to. So the cheap violin will work for lots of things, but it will never make your musical experience what it could be with a much finer insturment. The gurdy is not simply a droned, wheel driven stringed instrument - that is a mechano-agitated droned chordophone. The gurdy is different from, say, Dennis Havelena's $20 hurdy gurdy like object. My sinphone is a sort-of gurdy, it doesn't have the soul of a great instrument but it does OK in renn faire and other cheesy demo applications. It makes a drony, stringy sound that is recognizable as belonging to the gurdy family, but it is not a great instrument (or, I would imagine some here would say, even a very good one). But I am happy with it the way every mother is happy with their own child, it is the brightest, most handsome, most gifted thing around. But I am biased. Yes, you can make an instrument you can play from many of these kits and plans. But it will almost assuredly never give you what a professional instrument will give you. But it will give you something a professional instrument will not. You will know things after you build your first instrument that most players don't ever get to know. And if you pay attention, and are willing to experiment with your first child, as it were, then your second, and maybe third, and even further if you are so inclined, you CAN end up with a really nice instrument, and great knowledge, and you will be ahead. But it will cost you, cost in time, visits to builders to learn, materials, used up favors, the disgust of your house pets after listening to your squawking, squeaking experiments every day. It will cost you more than you would simply pay for an instrument. But that past earns you something more than just an instrument, so in many ways, it is simply worth it. If you are that kind of person - bright, mechanically talented, dedicated and focused, a touch of massochism and sadism. Just my 2 cents worth Chris Now comes more learning questions. *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/3/2008 at 10:10 PM Marsbar wrote: I can see what you mean. The tone is very thin and lacks substance (no bark ;-] ). But it is all about expectations. If I go to see an Adam Sandler movie I go with low expectations and occasionally I get pleasantly surprised even though there are still cringeworthy moments. It is possible that even the kit model could have a use in a group scenario especially to add colour in a medieval faire setting. The lack of the trompette wouldnt be as important if other members are maintaining the rhythm. And those of you who know what it should sound like can wander off to the other end of the faire and drown your sorrows with some mulled ale ;-]. Fi From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Douwe Boschma Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2008 9:25 PM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] Re: hurdy gurdy kits...or the DIY fanatics folly. Kit obsession? I dont think that it is a strange question for someone new. You have IKEA, model aeroplanes even whole houses that come as a kit. Not all are of bad quality either. But asking around and researching I found out that building an instrument is more critical. Kinds and quality of wood used. Glue that is provided, the way it has been sawed, instruction, the patience and precision of the builder etc. Still it is a good thing to ask around if you dont know about something. My first objective was to save money but still looking for a proper instrument. At the end I have ordered one from a builder which will be finished at the end of this
Re[2]: [HG] my current project
I'd LOVE some information from them. I read technical German (my first love is the medieval crossbow, and all the best information is in German), I don't read any Spanish. BTW, do you know Ain Haas? He has been a wealth of information in our building of baltic and Russian lyres and psaltery. Just wondered, as I have heard that Indiana has a really tight bunch of ethnic musicologists, music and instrument historians, and a well rounded community of players of more unusual instruments and music styles, and he has been active there in many roles. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/3/2008 at 11:01 AM Wolodymyr Smishkewych wrote: Chris, I don't know if you read Spanish, but are you familiar with the books written about the reconstruction of the Portico de la Gloria instruments and all manner of topics surrounding them? In it, Luciano Perez of Lugo's CADG discusses some of the very interesting topics that went into the whole process--in even more detail than in Rault's organistrum book. Let me know if you;d like some info from them. Vlad Wolodymyr Smishkewych wolodymyrsmishkewych.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Feb 03 2008, at 10:36, Chris Nogy wrote: OK, the 5 thick plank of black walnut has finally satbilized at around 9%, so I can start cutting. This is my build a gurdy that COULD have been built at the time of the first trompettes project, and by various iconographic evidence that was somewhere in the 1300's to 1400's. I have borrowed from what I know of instrument design in the period for shape, size, all that other rot, but I have only 1 question left. I have asked this before, but I got so many answers I am hoping this time around the responses will be simpler. I am not looking to build a modern instrument that looks like a period piece. I am looking to build a period piece to learn what it might have sounded like, and to play with a gregorian group that is local to our area. (Yes, I know, my sinphone should be what I use for that, or an organistrum, but I want to try this thing). The instrument will be a carved body, not rib-built. Is there any evidence from this early that curved soundboards were common (not carved yet, but simply curved), or should I stick to a flat top which I KNOW I can document to the period, at least on a whole lot of other stringed instruments. Again, I am not trying to build a modern instrument in disguise, I am trying to build a really first-class period instrument. But one that is significantly pre-Bosch, an instrument with a trompette that could be set down in any great hall of the time and a local builder would not have any reason to question if it is proper. Chris Nogy
Re[2]: [HG] a Newbie question
The string sits in a notch on the chien bridge, the notch is slightly angled to hold the string down in the notch so when you lift the string the bridge comes with it. The string doesn't slide in the bridge, it just lifts it and slaps it back down. If you have ever seen a blacksmith's trip hammer, you will know the principle immediately. In the trip hammer an eccentric crank picks up the hammer (it is pivoted on the handle end) and when it gets to the top of the travel it is released to strike the anvil. On a HG, the wheel lifts the string which lifts the end of the bridge, and then the string tension forces the foot of the bridge back to the soundboard. It is a very simple mechanism, but trying to get it 'balanced' up just right is hard, and adjusting it for playing is harder. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/6/2008 at 11:06 AM Minstrel Geoffrey wrote: Kevin, So if the dog moves up and down the string, won't that eventually break the string, in the contact area where it rubs? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 5, 2008, at 2:45 PM, kevin hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.hotpipes.com/hgtromp.html - Original Message - From: Minstrel Geoffrey To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: [HG] a Newbie question When the trompet or dog or chen as I've seen all three used to describe the built in rhythm buzzing sound, how exactly does that thing work? On a harp I know how it works, as its an attachment that you have to put on, for that constant effect, but I only see a key on what appears to be the tail peice, is it a wooden dampner that's applied to the strings, or does it have to do with the wheel? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 5, 2008, at 5:13 AM, sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Re[2]: [HG] Strohfiedel ?
Would the bowed gusli you are referring to also be known as a Jouhiko? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/5/2008 at 8:09 PM Michael Muskett wrote: Graham, The bowed gusle: strings are high above the 'finger-board' and stopped with the back of the index, middle little fingers, pressing from the side. Some instruments have a 2nd string tuned a tone lower allowing the player to sustain one of those glorious dissonances or used as a drone. The gusle is used for accompanying traditional epics. Michael -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Graham Whyte Sent: 05 January 2008 18:21 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: [HG] Strohfiedel ? Simon, Thanks for the correction It is a widespread misconception though I have found a few references to it as a xylophone Which of the instrument names on plate XII of Syntagma Musicum II do you think refers to the keyless Hurdy-Gurdy ? I have heard from someone who has seen a similar instrument played that the player appeared to use very little pressure on the string almost as if he was using the fleshy part of his finger like a tangent Graham -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Simon Wascher Sent: 02 January 2008 23:53 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy Ninera Hello, Am 02.01.2008 um 19:54 schrieb Graham Whyte: I can find references to Ninera but what I found so far shows it to be a keyed instrument Ninera is the standard name for the hurdy-gurdy in Czech. That instrument is very similar to the Strohl Fiddel drawing in Praetorious' Syntagma Musicum II published in the early 17th century The Stroh Fiddel is the xylophone on the bottom of the page, not the hurdy-gurd with fretless fingerboard This is obvious to thouse who are deeper into traditional alpine instruments and speak german as a Strohfidel oder Strohfiedel is known as this also outside the Syntagma Musicum. The name refers to the rolls of straw (Stroh) on which the wodden sticks are bedded to let them sound. This error is widespread and even supported by lots of google hits, but never the less its an errror. Simon --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13/1209 - Release Date: 04/01/2008 12:05
Re: [HG] list address
I have found that when you shift to the public groups systems (google groups, yahoo groups, etc) you lose the ability to make fine adjustments to the content of your lists and discussions. I have seen Alden here on many occasions gently guiding the list back to it's proper content. Proper according to him, who is the person who matters when considering the focus of this list. When you move away from that kind of control, many times the lists will lose cohesiveness and fail to meet it's intended purpose - I have had personal experience with that. Alden has the ability to make things happen on this list that the public groups don't allow, and to limit things that would get you in trouble on some of the public groups. All in all, I think that having a person, especially such a knowledgable and passionate HG enthusiast, owning and running the list is a really good thing, and I imagine, if he is anything like me, that he gets a lot of enthusiasm and encouragement from the interaction on this list, even when it might be somewhat difficult to manage at times. I guess being connected like this forces you to look and see that there is a pretty big commujnity that is interested in what you do, and I don't think I would trade that off for the world, if I was Alden. Of course, your mileage may vary. But one more plus regarding your particular view of this list. With one owner / moderator / host / rulesmaker, there is only one person you have to convince to change the tone of the list. If you find that Alden agrees with you and that the hassle of dealing with the untrained and novices is too much to deal with, then he will gladly adopt another focus for this group, and will impliment it with as much professionalism and friendliness as he has shown to date. If he doesn't see things the same way as you, then it would do not good to ask him to change anything about his list. We are all guests here, we have no unalienable right to be on this list. Alden is gracious and lets us run amok at times, and he makes us feel welcome instead of beholden. But he doesn't have to, and we should not take his hospitality and friendship as a sign that we have the right to be here or the right to do as we please - being a member of this list is a privelage, one that is graciously extended to us, but a privelage nonetheless. And I for one am glad that Alden retains all the control, that means he can be as hospitable as he wants, and that has been pretty hospitable as long as I have been here. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/2/2008 at 8:30 PM Craig Currier wrote: Greetings, Alden (and Cali), I have been on several arcane music lists, most notably the Cittern-L, started by Han Speek in his grad student cubical at the University of Twente in the Netherlands, and I would now suggest to you it is high time you stop trying to host this list yourself and move it to a Yahoo Group or something like that. No one trying to practice lutherie and run a business should have to put up with the imprecision, random abuse and ignorance you get from newbies on this list. Just my opinion, your milage may vary, Craig ;)
Re: [HG] Kit or no kit? And if so which one?
I can't say that I have ever seen the masterkit kit, so I cannot vouch for the quality. An average design, built with care and precision, and with attention to detail, can create a very playable instrument that will give you great pleasure to play for many, many years. A great design, built from pieces that are out of tolerance, rough, misaligned, will create an instrument that is nothing but frustration. If you are knowledgable about these instruments construction, and have access to people (especially for your first instrument) that can look at your progress and make the proper criticisms, and you are certain you can locate the information you need, then building a Henry III style is probably a great choice for a first time builder - it has many of the properties you look for in a professional level instrument, but none of the complexities that plague building instruments like lute-back vielles. But if you have all those resources, you probably don't need the kit, if the design is good and the plans are good (and from the one person I actually contacted who built from these plans, they were good plans that required only a little reworking to get a nice playable instrument) then you might just consider the plans. I guess that a real condensation of the topic, which comes up at least once a month here, is that there are many kits out there, none of which are universally regarded as a good place for a beginner to get an instrument. There are many plans available, some of which are regarded as good plans, but which really rely on the experience level of the builder - a gurdy is not a first wood working project. There are cheap instruments available already built, but none universally recognized as a good starter instrument, although some have been reworked and modified by experts to become playable instruments, often at almost the same cost as the instrument itself, and usually more than the cost of a good entry level gurdy. Problem is, there are few, if any options, that fit your budget directly, even if you are building from plans, you will find the cost begins to climb faster than you would believe. It is probably the most discouraging thing for anyone on this list to answer the first real question we get from most novices - how do I get started in this wonderful hobby on my limited budget? - with you don't. But it is the simple truth - making the wrong choices simply due to budget constrictions will almost guarantee that we will lose you to the enthusiast community, and that is the thing we want to avoid more than anything else. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/3/2008 at 5:20 PM Douwe Boschma wrote: Hello everybody, I am new on the list as well and I have a newbie question that I am unable to find an answer about. But lets start properly with a small introduction. I am Douwe, a 38 yo male living in the Norwegian moutains on a small farm with my wife and two girls (0 and 6). Originally I am Dutch and I work (amongst some of other trades) as a graphic designer. Since my youth I have had a medieval gen buzzing in my system. It expresses itself in many ways but it especially starts to resonate franticly if I hear the sound of the hurdygurdy. I get a lyrical feeling that I don't have with any other instrument even though I play some different instruments. Because of this lingering love I have been thinking for years about buying a hurdygurdy, but as with a lot of people my income goes straight into the household so I am on budget too low to afford one that would be to my taste. Because of this I decided to build one. I already have a plan for a hungarian HG from the music museum in Stockholm ;-) I love the no-frills form, it is a large one (and I am a very tall guy) and I expect a warm and rich sound, lest the right kind of tone wood will be used. But before I start with that undertaking I want to get a good feel for the instrument (on the inside and outside) so I considered buying a kit to get me going. Now I found two kits on internet. The musikit.com one is well advertised but also one that I'm sure I don't want because of it would need a lot of work to get a reasonable sound and versatility out of it. I am talking about this one: http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurd y And I have found an other one that I can't find any additional information about and that is this one: http://www.masterkit.com/rwc/products/hurdy.htm I seems to have all the specs I am looking for except from a lacking key as I understood about this 18th century french model. But does anyone have experience with this HG-kit, or has anyone heard about it? Can I expect it to be good enough for a starter? Or is it a toy to hang on the wall? ;-). It is a budget thing really, as I can't spend more what that one would cost me. It is even above my budget. In usd bout 1000. In euros about 740. So that is the only option I
Re[2]: [HG] Hurdy Gurdy Ninera
We spend a great deal of time making sure that the string is at the right angle and pressure to the wheel. When you stop the strings against the fingerboard on this instrument, you are changing all that - and worse yet you are changing it differently at the high notes than you are at the low notes. Kinda like playing a guitar with the action set too high at the nut, and too low at the bridge I cannot see this being more than a musical novelty at best, and the hardest beast in the stable to tame at worst... Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/1/2008 at 8:50 AM Don V. Lax wrote: How the heck would you play it, is what I'd like to know... as a violinist it looks like an interesting but daunting challenge aloha- don On Jan 1, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Seth wrote: http://cgi.ebay.com/Hurdy-Gurdy- Ninera_W0QQitemZ150200811295QQihZ005QQcategoryZ623QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZW D2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122 This thing look's kinda neat Seth
Re: [HG] To all Hurdy Gurdists where ever you may be!!!!
And from an icy Arkansas and Oklahoma (yes, I'm in both places at the same time), Merry Christmas to all. *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 12/23/2007 at 7:42 PM Billy Horne wrote: Hi to all from a SNOWLESS Finland HYVÄÄ JOULUA ja ONNELLISTA UUTTA VUOTTA 2008 Good Christmas and Happy New Year 2008 Bill Horne
Re: [HG] Customizing a kit
For someone who is handy, there are plans and instructions out there that will provide you a much more playable instrument than the MusicMakers kit. If you have some instrument building experience it is helpful, but not necessary, for success. In this venture, please remember that building a really servicable instrument, expecially if you have not built one before, will be a trade. Count on your time being worth about 1/3 of what you expect to be able to trade it for. In other words, if you make $20 per hour, and you expect to build a machine equal to a $3500 commercial gurdy, expect to put in about 450 hours or more. This is OK if you have time to trade to the project, and you can build a beautiful and functional instrument if you take the time and patience to research, study, and focus on every little detail. I have a slightly different situation - I may not actually have the time, but I do have a burning desire to build things - a desire stronger than my desire to play things. So I build starting with quick concept pieces that help me understand, and mock-ups and dummy parts, and I study books and ask questions, and now I am in the process of building a 'fictional' medieval gurdy (one that theoretically could have existed, but that we have not found evidence of). I was very cocky when I started this project - it was going to be built in a month and was going to be the last gurdy I ever needed. Harsh reality sets in, and I now understand that if this instrument is finished enough to display to the public before OTW next year, it will be a miracle. Luckily I have my sinphone to play in the interim - it is far from pretty but it satisfies the cravings, and it really sounds good from the choir loft in the local church. Now, I am still cocky enough to believe that this will be the only gurdy I will ever need, but my whole 'wonder-month' mentality is gone. So if you have a stronger desire to play than to build, I would suggest that you could probably save enough money to buy a good instrument in the time it would take you to build a good instrument. But if you have an equally strong desire to build and play, then there is nothing quite like stringing the instrument up for the first time and hearing the pathetic, horrible screeches and squawks, and turning them into musical sounds by the work of your own hands. It is quite satisfying. Either way, welcome and good luck Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 12/17/2007 at 11:16 AM Joe Mejia wrote: Hello group, My name is Joe and I'm brand new to the hurdy-gurdy. As a matter of fact, I neither know how to play nor do I own a hurdy-gurdy. But I am looking into fixing both of those problems soon. I've been researching the instrument and watching this mailing list for a little while and I've come to the conclusion that I want a hurdy with a chromatic keyboard. I read that it opens up many more options for playing music. I also want one that is affordable, since I am but a poor college student trying to finish up school. The latter part has been a real issue so far. This isn't a cheap hobby! So, I found some kits on the internet in my price range, but the problem is they have diatonic keyboards (Or tangents? What is the correct term?). I was wondering, since I am somewhat handy at tinkering, would it be possible to convert a diatonic kit, such as the one found at musikit.com (http://www.musikit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy), into a chromatic keyboard setup? Thanks in advance, - Joe Share life as it happens with the new Windows Live. Share now!
Re[2]: Looking for instrument - Re: [HG] Re:
I'll chime in here on the part of 'going budget' by building your own instrument. Again, while there is lots of infomration out there about building low-cost gurdy like objects, and some kits that are not well designed but are attractive in price, I cannot stress enough that you still get what you pay for, and building a gurdy can be done, but you will pay as much when you add up your time and money as you will by buying a moderately expensive instrument from a professional builder. If your time is discretionary, you can realize a significant savings in dollars. There are some good drawings and plans for reasonably nice instruments out there - most will need some modifications or changes, but the list here is very good about helping with details on technical points. You will have to realize that your first gurdy will likely be just a learning project, with the end result not usually very professional or reliable, but here is where the real benefit comes in. There is very little that can give you as much knowledge of a gurdy as building one - and that knowledge is priceless when it comes to maintenance, setup, adjustment, modification, addition or subtraction from your instrument. So if you are of a mind to know all the deepest, darkest secrets and innermost workings of this instrument, I can say there is nothing more fulfilling than building one. It takes time (I am still working on what I consider my first 'professional level' project, and have been for months, it isn't going nearly as fast as the first instrument I built while I knew little to nothing. But I highly suggest for those who really get into the instrument, consider building at least one - and if you are cash poor but time rich, it can provide you with the ability to get more instrument than you could otherwise obtain, providing you pay close attention to details, take your time, don't be afraid to throw away imperfect parts, and don't cut corners. The gurdy is not rocket science, everything can be done correctly by careful measurement, slow setup, accurate adjustment of angles - and these things aren't hard to determine, they are just very unforgiving of alteration. The right materials are available. The right adhesives aren't expensive, the tools needed for most of the instrument are few, but you must have them in good order. Having a friend with a machine shop can make the difference between success and failure, because although you only need a few precision metal parts, they must be precise. But you can do it - it is not impossible. Just chiming in on another 'budget' option - it really isn't budget if you look at everything, but if you are in a situation where you can spend the time but don't have that much money, it is worth studying. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 10/8/2007 at 8:59 AM Lauwers Pieter wrote: Doing my bit on budget priced instruments: I started from scrap about five years ago. At that time I wasn't planning on putting a big budget in an instrument. My wife (!!) convinced me on waiting a bit longer and buying a full-option instrument from an experienced builder. The people who bought a cheaper instrument and started to play together with me ended up with a lot of problems (to silent, to loud, horrible sound, chien not responding well and so on...) In the long run my instrument became cheaper: during the years the builder became a very good friend, he thought me a lot about setting up HG's and was always open for questions (and I did ask some stupid ones!) Buying a HG is also building up a relation with the builder and he or she is the person that puts the soul in your instrument. If you really like the HG: invest in a real builder! Pieter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 Oct 07 04:22 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Cc: Nancy Quense; Beth Kolle; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Alden and Cali Hackmann; Bill and Gina Boyd Subject: Looking for instrument - Re: [HG] Re: Yes, I'll also ask you to put something in the subject line. If you don't put a subject in the subject line, Majordomo (the list software) doesn't add the [HG] to the line, and many people don't realize that it's from the list. I didn't, and I deleted your post. I am not impressed with Altarwind's product as shown on their website. Even if they are making all the parts in their own shop, it's still a Musicmaker's/Musikits design. While they did add a trompette, the handle is totally inadequate for playing it, and I haven't heard any evidence that it works. I'll come back to the subject of a budget hurdy-gurdy. I think all the HG builders on the list will agree when I say that it takes a great amount of work to build a HG, and even if the price is high, none of us truly gets paid well for our time. A low-priced instrument is always going to be one where so many corners have been cut that it's not going to sound very good
Re[2]: [HG] Re: your mail
Sorry to intrude into a private conversation, but if it is OK, I think I can answer a point. As to the 'reverse the way of the wheel, I assume you are saying What if you turn the wheel backwards (counterclockwise as viewed from the wheel end of the instrument)? You can do this - you have to be sure and cotton the strings backward. But the big problem comes with the chien, which is made to have the wheel lift it a bit from the soundboard before string tension overcomes rosin stickiness and the chien bridge is pulled back down to the soundboard. This is the process that makes the buzzing sound. So if you were to reverse the direction you crank, you would then either have to remove the chien or move it to the other side of the wheel, so the wheel would again 'lift' the chien string instead of dragging it down into the soundboard. And Chroamtic in D (/G) is a very common instrument tuning to learn and perform on. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 9/19/2007 at 12:42 PM sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc wrote: thanks dave ..soi assume a gurdyin dchromatic . is a good buy for a beginner ... i heard 3 weeks ago 7 gurdy at a small gurdy introduction course andthe d sound better at my ears .. i have another question i asked at french forum too but , 2 answer are better than one ... about the wheel .. info i received , . often the wheell is the problem .. so what material can replace the russian plywood .??? ..reverse the way of the weel does it make sence for you ?.is it different sound ? . of course thecomplete handle must be on keyway and not screw or it will unscrew. sorry for my bad english .. what isthe more popular tunes easy to learn for a beginner 2 or 3 tunes name coud be good . i plan to buy a tutorial in french with dvd . is someone french know what i can buy . easy , well done ..thanks sylvain - Original Message - From: Dave Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:40 AM Subject: [HG] Re: your mail On Wed, Sep 19, 2007 at 09:50:45AM -0400, sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc wrote: what is diatonic and chromatic .. what is de difference ,? Hello Sylvain, in a nutshell: diatonic is like having only the white notes on a piano (no sharps or flats), and chromatic is having both black and white notes (a complete scale). Most hurdy-gurdies are chromatic these days. The predecessor to the hurdy-gurdy, the organistrum, was diatonic. Dave
Re: X-Rays. Was Re: [HG] Binding shaft on Reichmann hurdy-gurdy
I have a friend who is a veterinarian, who does x-rays of old stuff for me all the time, without ever harming the equipment or invalidating and warranty or such. Of course the clinic owns the x-ray machine, and I usually get the images after hours. I don't know what it would cost - I always take the service out in trade (even cleaning around the clinic, if necessary) My advice - don't try people doctors, they are all bound up in all sorts of industry red tape. Find a vet, they are more likely to be helpful. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/11/2007 at 8:29 AM Arle Lommel wrote: Alden, How do you get X-rays? A number of years back I approached a fellow I knew who worked at a major medical imaging manufacturer, who told me in no uncertain terms that if any medical equipment were ever used for such a purpose, it would invalidate all sorts of agreements and be against the law. I found that hard to believe, but he was insistent that there is no way he could ever help me get the image I wanted or that his equipment would be worthless after that. -Arle On Jun 10, 2007, at 11:56 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The traditional method of installing the wheel was to put it permanently. When all else fails for figuring out the bearings, you can get an X- ray of it. ;-) Alden
Re[2]: [HG] Amateur Hurdy Gurdy Makers
Here's an idea that works on some other lists that I have. If people who are asking building questions put something in the subject line like [BUILD], then anyone who is really not interested can simply set up a filter to put those messages elsewhere, and those who are really interested will know what messages to read first, and it will all be on one list, and scanning the archives will be easier. Maybe just a [B], but everyone would have to use the same set of symbols and they would have to be something never found in the subjectline (thus the square brackets around the symbol). And when the thread changes from building to general information, as it always seems to, then the subject line should change to reflect it. This might help everyone get more of what they want from this list. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/16/2007 at 8:35 AM Marjy and Dick Fiddler wrote: Ditto to all the sentiment for builders to keep on talking here. After all, we all have high maintenance demands from our instruments as players, and building and maintenance are related. I'd rather have one list and scan it with my own personal interest 'filter' than have to look at two different lists. Cheers to all, and hope to see many of you at Seattle Folklife. Check it out at http://www.nwfolklife.org/ Marjy On May 16, 2007, at 7:36 AM, Christa Muths wrote: Hi All, I don't see the need for a second list either. I will certainly never build a hurdy gurdy but reading about all aspects have been more then helpfull to understand the instrument and have given me an insight in how to use it, maintain it and the trouble spots to look out for. I only joined the group recently and as said before all discussions about the instrument make the list so exiting and interesting! Christa On 16/05/07, Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I may be off base here, but I don't really see the need for a second list. Information about all aspects of HG manage to be helpful - playing, building, tuning, caring for, etc. Lots of times the line blurs between performance and technical parts of gurdies, and I wouldn't know where to draw the line as to what goes in what group. I have had 0 complaints since I joined this list when posting technical questions. In fact, even non-builders have been quite helpful. There are so few questions that are purely builders questions - most of the building questions involve history, adjustment, design, things that actually affect the rest of the group when they go to do something to or with their gurdies. I will probably join the builders list, but I hope it doesn't dilute the value and quantity of knowledge on this one - after all, the owner of this one is a designer and builder as well. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/15/2007 at 4:01 PM Seth Hamon wrote: I started a Yahoo group for topics involving hurdy gurdy making. It will help keep this stuff out of the un-interested's mail boxes.. Cheers, Seth --
Re: [HG] A newbie welcome
the professionals on so many other discussion groups - they might be far above us average mortals in skill, but they don't hold themselves above us in status. And that is why this list is so great. I apologize for seeming rude. I do want, as the rest of this list does as well, to see you build something that increases your enthusiasm and love of the instrument, not squashes it. I am certain that you will find that this is EXACTLY the kind of help you really need - not just a bunch of cheerleaders, but people and topics with real, relevant information meant to inform and educate, not to discourage and dismay. Welcome to the family, and again, my apologies if I cam across rude - it wasn't my intent. Chris Nogy rank amateur *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/14/2007 at 11:26 PM john tappan wrote: Well, guys, thanks for the welcome! So far, Ive had one offer for help (thanks, Marc!) and three criticisms of the plans Ive bought. Not exactly the kind of support I was looking for!! To my way of thinking, unless youre going to build an historically accurate hg with historically accurate decoration (pick your builder, your style, and your decade), then a set of plans is just a beginning point. Ive rarely built anything exactly like the plans specifiedtheres always room for changes, adaptations, and some creative license. Im assuming your good intentions, but really As far as Pascal Crangats plans, Ive been looking at hg sites for months and I had never come across that name, so I googled him and found one site in French. I dont read French, so if he does have plans for sale, however good they might be, I wouldnt know it. And if I did know it, Id expect the plans to be in French, as well, so I doubt they would be very helpful to me anyway. Now if he has an English version, I might be interestedI havent built anything yet. John Tappan
[HG] instruments with tirant pegs and no chien...
Just in curiosity, I went to search completed listings on ebay to see which instrument Alina purchased, and came across another instrument, a cute Henry III. But something again seemed wrong. http://cgi.ebay.com/HURDY-GURDY-Ghironda_W0QQitemZ260112073949QQihZ016QQcategoryZ308QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This one does have all 6 strings, but it doesn't have a chien, though it dies have a tirant peg. Seeing as how our discussion some time back about being able to discern the earlies modern form (chien) gurdy from painting because it had a tirant peg, seems strange that there are this many strange occurrances of gurdies with only part of the chien mechanism. What other use could the builders have for putting in a tirant pin without a chien and bridge except for aesthetics? Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/15/2007 at 8:59 AM Arle Lommel wrote: I, on the other hand, do have a vested interest in the book (I was the translator), but I have to agree with Philip that the book is very useful for starting out, most importantly because the buzzing bridge technique on the tekero is very different from that of French-style instruments (it is controlled with wrist motions rather than hand motions), and there is no other method-type book that will explain that to you. If people on the list are interested in obtaining copies, please respond to me off-list with your name and where you live. If enough people are interested, I can probably get another set of copies for sale (my personal stash is empty at present). Price in the U.S., including shipping, would be about $2530 US (I'm not exactly sure at the moment since I need to work out shipment details with Balázs). One thing Balázs and I have discussed is producing an English-only edition for sale outside of Hungary. Thus far we have not made one, but if there is sufficient interest, we could. -Arle On May 15, 2007, at 4:24 AM, JULIE BARKER wrote: Hello Alina and welcome Great to see some young blood coming to the instrument. You could be interested in a book that I aquired at the Lancaster HurdyGurdy Festival in England... Tekerolantosok Konyve by Nagy Balazs--The Hurdy-Gurdy handbook by Balazs Nagy. It is reasonably priced, beautifully presented and in both English and Hungarian. I suspect an internet search could find Balazs, who actually speaks fairly good English. By the way I have no vested interest in this book, it's just that I would have found it very usefull if it had been available when I was starting out. I think the gurdy player on the Loreena McKennet recordings could be Nigel Eaton. If you want to hear more gurdy playing go to my website www.drohne.co.uk or better still www.myspace.com/philipgmartin , where, as well as my music, you will find a lot of good gurdy stuff courtesy of my friends eg; Blowzabella, Primeval, Stephane Durand and lots more. Good Luck Philip
Re: [HG] New Hurdy-Gurdy Fan
Welcome Alina. It is nice to see someone younger getting involved with the instrument. I did some looking around at your instrument's builders site and the work looks excellent, he has a range of styles that run from very conservative to very whimsical, and that is one thing that makes me believe he knows his stuff - if you can make this variety of instruments work, with all their inherant differences, you must understand the instrument and not just how to build from one set of plans. I don't know personally, but I think you are probably getting a fine instrument. A word of caution - if you are buying it used, there will be things that need done to it, adjustments and maintenance, various little tweaks and lots of messing with it. That is half the fun, and all the frustration, of owning a gurdy. Many a wonderful instrument arrived in the hands of a new owner only to sound like the proverbial gunnysack of cats. Don't be frustrated - even the best instrument can sound horrible once two or three things go slightly out of adjustment, and likewise the most horrible sounds can usually be fixed without resorting to major rebuild. If you encounter problems with your instruments sound, don't panic. Relax, breathe, and let us know what is happening. So many folks here have helped in diagnosing and fixing issues, most likely any problems you encounter can be worked out as well. This is unlike any other adventure in music, the machine is fickle, frustrating, often only seconds from being thrown out a 5th stroy window. You not only have to learn how to play the instrument, but how to do things that no other instrument requires. So relax, don't sweat it, be happy. The effort is extra, sure, but the end result is worth it. ] And remember one of the most important things - once you learn how to get rid of the bad sounds, you will then know how to put them back. There is no instrument quite like the mal-adjusted gurdy (perhaps the poorly tuned pipes or a crwth, but that is it) for clearing a house or annoying the neighbors when necessary grin Again, welcome. I'm sure we will benefit from your enthusiasm as much or more than you will benefit from our experiences. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 5/14/2007 at 6:29 PM Alina Larson wrote: Hello everyone! My name is Alina Larson, I am sixteen years old and new to the world of Hurdy-Gurdies. I didn't know anything about this instrument until just recently, but have unwittingly enjoyed its sound for quite some time. Do any of you know of Loreena McKennitt? I saw her in concert just a couple days ago. It was an excellent performance, and I really loved the Hurdy-Gurdy which accompanied a few of her songs. My favorite song was Santiago. An old favorite, actually. I was off of the edge of my seat for most of that song... I do not own a Hurdy-Gurdy as of this moment, but have purchased one via eBay just last week--with my life's savings, I might add. I was wondering if anyone on this list happens to live in my area. It would be nice to have a tutor, or just someone to talk to about the Hurdy-Gurdy. I live in Berkeley, California and am purchasing a Szerényí Béla Hungarian Tekero. I am also new to mailing lists... I hope my introduction was well-constructed. I should probably get back to homework, now... I can hardly wait for my Tekero to arrive! Any advice, information or comments are welcome and eagerly anticipated on my side. If anyone knows anything that they would like to share with me, it's more than welcome :-D Thank You for reading! ~Alina Larson.
Re: [HG] Who's going to Pennsic?
I'm hoping to make it, but that all depends on my boss. I probably wouldn't be the best co-teacher, but if I am there, I would gladly bring my sinphone and the new machine if it is done to show off. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 4/25/2007 at 12:50 PM Melissa Kacalanos wrote: This email is going out to those who like early music and don't mind mud. Who's going to Pennsic this year? (In Pennsylvania, USA.) http://www.pennsicwar.org/ I see that the teacher deadline is approaching. I'd like to teach an intro to hg class, so would anyone like to co-teach it with me, and perhaps bring their hg to show off? Melissa __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [HG] hello to everyone
Hi, my name is Chris, I am a Hurdy Gurdy addict, and I have been 4 days without touching a Hurdy Gurdy... It's hard, but I know people who have done it, I guess I'll just take it one day at a time... Seriously, a person developing a HG addiction couldn't find a better place to be - producers, distributors, users, enablers, we're all here. Welcome, Robyn. I'm sure you'll have fun with us. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 3/6/2007 at 8:53 PM robyn schulze wrote: Hi everybody, I'm Robyn from Northern Colorado, and I'm starting to develop a hurdy gurdy addiction... I'd really like to find someone in my general area who has an HG that I can at least look at and fiddle with, to see if playing one is REALLY where my interest lies! I'm in Longmont, CO, but can easily get to Denver, Boulder, Ft. Collins, or even Colorado Springs if need be. Anyone know anybody who I can get in touch with? I also play drums with my church's praise band--adding an HG to the band might make for some really interesting music! I spend much of my day farming, as I raise much of our own food; have 2 horses and enjoy riding; am married w/ an 11 yr old son; am formerly an OR nurse (before I took the mom gig). I'll (probably) be going to southwestern Virginia and west-central Florida at some point this year--an HG owner/player in either of those areas might be great to get together with too. Thanks very much! _ Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more .then map the best route! http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1FORM=MGAC01
Re[8]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
Thanks, Seth. Interesting instruments, I am sure that certain features will be an inspiration to this instrument. Here's a 'just for fun' question. Along with this medieval Gurdy, for the challenge I am thinking of building an instrument with the crank on the keyhead side, with the keyslips reversed (accidentals on the bottom row, naturals on the top) and a keyboard of keys in a standard piano pattern hinged to the bottom of the instrument, that depressed the keyslips as they were depressed. This would let me play the right hand exactly as I would a piano (the only instrument I have formal training on), and use the left hand for rhythm. I have quite a few years of performing with a guitarboard style keyboard, so this seems kind of a natural configuration for me (more natural, I think, than the left-hand melody and right hand rhythm of a standard gurdy). I am still thinking this through, not certain of the outcome (playing the sinphone has definately strengthened my left hand playing piano, which was ALWAYS my weak point, ALWAYS). But there seems something almost irresistable about building the instrument to play with a right-hand dominate keyboard that runs in the right direction (a gurdy built mirror image would require playing with the right hand where the notes decrease in pitch to the right, which would be very unnatural, thus the crank on the wrong side as the major design change, the notes still go up as you move right). And I am not sure about how much fine motor control I would be able to exhibit with my left hand - if it is my weak playing hand, then probably the same thing would be true about coups and such. Not to mention endurance. A nightmare to align and assure all the shaft bearings, and a lot of extra design work. But with the exception of the unique keyboard and the physical position of the crank, it would be a standard gurdy. My question is, if I build the thing, it would need a name. What might you call such an instrument, and has one like it ever been built to the best of anyone's knowledge? I like building unusual wheels, not necessarily re-inventing every one. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/28/2007 at 9:07 AM Seth Hamon wrote: http://perso.orange.fr/xaime/vielle/vendee/vielvend5.html
Re[10]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
When you are used to stretching your fingers further to reach the accidentals, you would need to put them on the bottom row to achieve the same effect. The keyboard of a gurdy is set up like you were looking at a regular keyboard from the back side - if you had the tangents turned around and were pushing down on the keyslips instead of pushing up on them, the keyboard would be right. The idea is to have the keys positions and relationships mimic more closely the nature of other keyboard instruments - the melody is right-hand and the accidentals are a stretch from the resting hand position instead of the naturals. I realize that the gurdy is not simply a keyboard instrument, and in building this instrument for this purpost it would be a 'key of C' instrument only because only in that key would the keys actually correspond to what they are on a piano keyboard (though you could transpose with it, like we do in any gurdy that can go from C/G to G/D, but that would defeat the purpose of this specialty instrument) Again, it is not a done deal, and would only be built to experiment with the effects that 'normal' keyboard playing would have on the instrument. It would not be a new instrument type, it would not have a new sound, but I know that you get a different set of subtleties when you change up hands and when you let other parts or your mind control different things (the left-hand, right brain control of the rhythm in this proposal, for example). I just think it is a neat idea to run with, mentally at least for now. I wonder why traditionalists often don't take an immediate liking to me? Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 3/4/2007 at 5:34 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like an interesting idea: I recall thinking about similar arrangements One detail puzzles me, though: why reverse the naturals accidentals? On a 'regular' keyboard, their positions are the same as on a hg; does this have something to do with the type of action you're contemplating? -Wm. Steinmayer ** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com.
Re[8]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
Absolutely correct. It has been under extremes of pressure, moisture, and heat for years, and it very, very tough. I like working new Lignum Vitae as well, it is easier but still fun. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/25/2007 at 11:04 AM Reymen Marc wrote: Hello, I like lignum vitae to but i work with new wood that is very easy to work on with standard wood tools it is just like oak. So i think your wood has these toughness just because of the way it was used before... Marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:38 AM Subject: Re[6]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question I should have commented further. Since Lignum Vitae as we know it is a new world wood, it would not have been used in 1350 in Europe. I don't know what would have been used as a bearing, probably just hard wood with the hole made by burning with an iron slightly smaller than the shaft, and the hole worked by the shaft itself. But I like working with Lignum Vitae, it is just therapeutic turning something so dense, hard, and tight grained. I like boring it, and machining it in thousandhs of an inch, and the finish a good sharp tool gives. There is also something about holding a piece of wood that weight THAT much for such a small piece - it is one of the remarkable anomalies of nature, wood that in so many ways responds like metal. I just like it. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/25/2007 at 12:33 AM Reymen Marc wrote: contempory: so bearings in lignum vitae? Marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re[4]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question I have the same concerns, and nave never tried to push the limits of the wood. I like to work in maple, cherry, and walnut, and there are relatively hard and dense woods, but are prone to fracturing (especially the hard maple). So when I hollow out the body of an instrument, I leave some wood proud on the inside (if I have the walls of the instrument hollowed to 3/16, for example, I leave a 'hill' of wood that is 1/2 to 5/8 inch thick), centered on the spot where the tailgut peg will go into the instrument. I try to do a nice job of blending the extra wood in so there is no sharp corner where it would be prone to breaking off. This has not failed me yet. If I am going to carve the body of this instrument, I will leave the area for the front axle bushing quite thick, and where the other string pins are I will leave a solid flared strip of wood proud (from the belly to the top) at each location. I will probably use walnut, and inlay either padauk (yeah, I know it's not medieval, but after the orange tones down it looks great with walnut) or maple veneer strips to make it look as if it were glued up of 5 pieces, while maintaining the integrity of the full carved construction. I already have 2 soundboard blanks picked out, they are carpathian red spruce and are really pretty. For everyone else out there, what was the earliest example of ornate rosettes and purfling that anyone has found? I know that cut soundholes are present in the earliest of stringed instruments, but when did they start getting really fancy? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/24/2007 at 11:57 AM Karl Christoffers wrote: Greetings Chris, Just for the sake of completeness sake, and since I do not think anyone else has mentioned it ... In Marcello Bono's plans packet for the Bosch hurdy-gurdy (purchased some time ago from Michael Muskett), Marcello gives the builder three options for the body of the instrument. They are: contemporary lutherie construction (with curved back and belly), carving the body out of one block of wood, and gluing up smaller blocks of wood to give the mass of a carved body without needing to start with a serious block of seasoned wood. Marcello does not give any cautions in the text to indicate there are possible problems with any of the construction options for the builder or player. I rather like the third method of gluing up the body so I would not have short grain into which the strings will be anchored at the tail of the instrument. However, since you have already carved instruments, you already know whether short grain in the tail of an instrument is a problem or not. Is it? -Karl Christoffers --- Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume
Re[4]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
I have the same concerns, and nave never tried to push the limits of the wood. I like to work in maple, cherry, and walnut, and there are relatively hard and dense woods, but are prone to fracturing (especially the hard maple). So when I hollow out the body of an instrument, I leave some wood proud on the inside (if I have the walls of the instrument hollowed to 3/16, for example, I leave a 'hill' of wood that is 1/2 to 5/8 inch thick), centered on the spot where the tailgut peg will go into the instrument. I try to do a nice job of blending the extra wood in so there is no sharp corner where it would be prone to breaking off. This has not failed me yet. If I am going to carve the body of this instrument, I will leave the area for the front axle bushing quite thick, and where the other string pins are I will leave a solid flared strip of wood proud (from the belly to the top) at each location. I will probably use walnut, and inlay either padauk (yeah, I know it's not medieval, but after the orange tones down it looks great with walnut) or maple veneer strips to make it look as if it were glued up of 5 pieces, while maintaining the integrity of the full carved construction. I already have 2 soundboard blanks picked out, they are carpathian red spruce and are really pretty. For everyone else out there, what was the earliest example of ornate rosettes and purfling that anyone has found? I know that cut soundholes are present in the earliest of stringed instruments, but when did they start getting really fancy? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/24/2007 at 11:57 AM Karl Christoffers wrote: Greetings Chris, Just for the sake of completeness sake, and since I do not think anyone else has mentioned it ... In Marcello Bono's plans packet for the Bosch hurdy-gurdy (purchased some time ago from Michael Muskett), Marcello gives the builder three options for the body of the instrument. They are: contemporary lutherie construction (with curved back and belly), carving the body out of one block of wood, and gluing up smaller blocks of wood to give the mass of a carved body without needing to start with a serious block of seasoned wood. Marcello does not give any cautions in the text to indicate there are possible problems with any of the construction options for the builder or player. I rather like the third method of gluing up the body so I would not have short grain into which the strings will be anchored at the tail of the instrument. However, since you have already carved instruments, you already know whether short grain in the tail of an instrument is a problem or not. Is it? -Karl Christoffers --- Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume that it would not be out fo the question to build a gurdy with a shape similar to other instruments that were being built. I am just really curious to know if this method has any specific design characteristics that would make it unsuitable for a gurdy (a medieval gurdy, not a modern one). I have wood in sufficient dimension and am experienced in making a jointed body in his style as well. I know that if it had to be a jointed carved body, then it would have to be jointed in 3 sections so that the axle would have the full support fo the center. But for a smaller gurdy, which most of the medieval illustrations I have seen seem to imply, there are lots of species of hardwood that grow large enough and can be seasoned well enough to do this job. Chris Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Re[6]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
Absolutely. Even if I wasn't building a period piece, this is what I would use. My pieces are from an old steamship shaft bearing, they have been under extreme heat, pressure, and in moisture for a long time, and are nearly as hard and stable as iron. I have to machine them on my metal lathe. The woodworking equipment won't work. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/25/2007 at 12:33 AM Reymen Marc wrote: contempory: so bearings in lignum vitae? Marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re[4]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question I have the same concerns, and nave never tried to push the limits of the wood. I like to work in maple, cherry, and walnut, and there are relatively hard and dense woods, but are prone to fracturing (especially the hard maple). So when I hollow out the body of an instrument, I leave some wood proud on the inside (if I have the walls of the instrument hollowed to 3/16, for example, I leave a 'hill' of wood that is 1/2 to 5/8 inch thick), centered on the spot where the tailgut peg will go into the instrument. I try to do a nice job of blending the extra wood in so there is no sharp corner where it would be prone to breaking off. This has not failed me yet. If I am going to carve the body of this instrument, I will leave the area for the front axle bushing quite thick, and where the other string pins are I will leave a solid flared strip of wood proud (from the belly to the top) at each location. I will probably use walnut, and inlay either padauk (yeah, I know it's not medieval, but after the orange tones down it looks great with walnut) or maple veneer strips to make it look as if it were glued up of 5 pieces, while maintaining the integrity of the full carved construction. I already have 2 soundboard blanks picked out, they are carpathian red spruce and are really pretty. For everyone else out there, what was the earliest example of ornate rosettes and purfling that anyone has found? I know that cut soundholes are present in the earliest of stringed instruments, but when did they start getting really fancy? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/24/2007 at 11:57 AM Karl Christoffers wrote: Greetings Chris, Just for the sake of completeness sake, and since I do not think anyone else has mentioned it ... In Marcello Bono's plans packet for the Bosch hurdy-gurdy (purchased some time ago from Michael Muskett), Marcello gives the builder three options for the body of the instrument. They are: contemporary lutherie construction (with curved back and belly), carving the body out of one block of wood, and gluing up smaller blocks of wood to give the mass of a carved body without needing to start with a serious block of seasoned wood. Marcello does not give any cautions in the text to indicate there are possible problems with any of the construction options for the builder or player. I rather like the third method of gluing up the body so I would not have short grain into which the strings will be anchored at the tail of the instrument. However, since you have already carved instruments, you already know whether short grain in the tail of an instrument is a problem or not. Is it? -Karl Christoffers --- Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume that it would not be out fo the question to build a gurdy with a shape similar to other instruments that were being built. I am just really curious to know if this method has any specific design characteristics that would make it unsuitable for a gurdy (a medieval gurdy, not a modern one). I have wood in sufficient dimension and am experienced in making a jointed body in his style as well. I know that if it had to be a jointed carved body, then it would have to be jointed in 3 sections so that the axle would have the full support fo the center. But for a smaller gurdy, which most of the medieval illustrations I have seen seem to imply, there are lots of species of hardwood that grow large enough and can be seasoned well enough to do this job. Chris Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by Green Rating at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
Re[6]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question
I should have commented further. Since Lignum Vitae as we know it is a new world wood, it would not have been used in 1350 in Europe. I don't know what would have been used as a bearing, probably just hard wood with the hole made by burning with an iron slightly smaller than the shaft, and the hole worked by the shaft itself. But I like working with Lignum Vitae, it is just therapeutic turning something so dense, hard, and tight grained. I like boring it, and machining it in thousandhs of an inch, and the finish a good sharp tool gives. There is also something about holding a piece of wood that weight THAT much for such a small piece - it is one of the remarkable anomalies of nature, wood that in so many ways responds like metal. I just like it. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/25/2007 at 12:33 AM Reymen Marc wrote: contempory: so bearings in lignum vitae? Marc - Original Message - From: Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re[4]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...the carved body question I have the same concerns, and nave never tried to push the limits of the wood. I like to work in maple, cherry, and walnut, and there are relatively hard and dense woods, but are prone to fracturing (especially the hard maple). So when I hollow out the body of an instrument, I leave some wood proud on the inside (if I have the walls of the instrument hollowed to 3/16, for example, I leave a 'hill' of wood that is 1/2 to 5/8 inch thick), centered on the spot where the tailgut peg will go into the instrument. I try to do a nice job of blending the extra wood in so there is no sharp corner where it would be prone to breaking off. This has not failed me yet. If I am going to carve the body of this instrument, I will leave the area for the front axle bushing quite thick, and where the other string pins are I will leave a solid flared strip of wood proud (from the belly to the top) at each location. I will probably use walnut, and inlay either padauk (yeah, I know it's not medieval, but after the orange tones down it looks great with walnut) or maple veneer strips to make it look as if it were glued up of 5 pieces, while maintaining the integrity of the full carved construction. I already have 2 soundboard blanks picked out, they are carpathian red spruce and are really pretty. For everyone else out there, what was the earliest example of ornate rosettes and purfling that anyone has found? I know that cut soundholes are present in the earliest of stringed instruments, but when did they start getting really fancy? Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/24/2007 at 11:57 AM Karl Christoffers wrote: Greetings Chris, Just for the sake of completeness sake, and since I do not think anyone else has mentioned it ... In Marcello Bono's plans packet for the Bosch hurdy-gurdy (purchased some time ago from Michael Muskett), Marcello gives the builder three options for the body of the instrument. They are: contemporary lutherie construction (with curved back and belly), carving the body out of one block of wood, and gluing up smaller blocks of wood to give the mass of a carved body without needing to start with a serious block of seasoned wood. Marcello does not give any cautions in the text to indicate there are possible problems with any of the construction options for the builder or player. I rather like the third method of gluing up the body so I would not have short grain into which the strings will be anchored at the tail of the instrument. However, since you have already carved instruments, you already know whether short grain in the tail of an instrument is a problem or not. Is it? -Karl Christoffers --- Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume that it would not be out fo the question to build a gurdy with a shape similar to other instruments that were being built. I am just really curious to know if this method has any specific design characteristics that would make it unsuitable for a gurdy (a medieval gurdy, not a modern one). I have wood in sufficient dimension and am experienced in making a jointed body in his style as well. I know that if it had to be a jointed carved body, then it would have to be jointed in 3 sections so that the axle would have the full support fo the center. But for a smaller gurdy, which most of the medieval illustrations I have seen seem to imply, there are lots of species of hardwood that grow large enough
Re[2]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...
I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume that it would not be out fo the question to build a gurdy with a shape similar to other instruments that were being built. I am just really curious to know if this method has any specific design characteristics that would make it unsuitable for a gurdy (a medieval gurdy, not a modern one). I have wood in sufficient dimension and am experienced in making a jointed body in his style as well. I know that if it had to be a jointed carved body, then it would have to be jointed in 3 sections so that the axle would have the full support fo the center. But for a smaller gurdy, which most of the medieval illustrations I have seen seem to imply, there are lots of species of hardwood that grow large enough and can be seasoned well enough to do this job. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/22/2007 at 1:45 PM Seth Hamon wrote: Their is a step by step set of pictues of how these were done in a whole piece on this site... Go about 1/2 way down... Note the instrument is not a gurdy... a http://crab.rutgers.edu/~pbutler/citole.html Chris Nogy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another question. It was common until the 1500s to build instruments with a fully carved, one piece body and neck and head, and a flat soundboard. Rebecs all the way to bass rebecs, most of the citole, viol, and other instruments I have seen from the 1300s and 1400s were carved bodied instruments. The soundpost was an invention of the late 1500s and 1600s. Would it be acceptable to think that a medieval gurdy, from the 1300s to mid 1400s, could be a carved body instrument with no soundposts, a flat top, and moderately heavy bracing (like a viol)? The Crwth, the Citole, the Rebec, all the instruments I have built from that time have been carved bodied instruments, except for the sinphone (and it is simple to see how a straight box would have been built up, but as you get into shaped bodies like the holly leaf or waisted figure 8 bodies of the other instruments, it seems these were carved. With the exception of the lute, and even some early lutes were carved, this seems to be the norm. Would this be within the realm of possibility, or is there some aspect of the carved body design that would make a vielle with this construction impossible? Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/22/2007 at 2:57 PM Chris Nogy wrote: I went back in my list archives and saw a few years back a discussion of the HG playing angel musician at LeMans at the Cathedral. Try as I might, I can find no images of that player anywhere. But if this is the earliest depiction of a vielle with a chien, it might be a place to start designing the physical appearance of the medieval gurdy that will be my next project. If anyone has that image, could you please send it to me? Thanks Chris Nogy
Re[4]: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...
://www.stefciu.com/stefciulira_files/image005.jpg I don't know the source of the image, but there are a number of HG forms on it that I don't recognize right away. -Arle On Feb 23, 2007, at 9:46 AM, Chris Nogy wrote: I have made several hollowed bodied instruments www.nogy.net, look at the rebec or the crwth or the citole or the lyre pages. But this instrument, the citole from the Cantigas, is one of the design starting points I am trying to explore, as well as King David's Crwth, the gittern from the British Museum, etc... These instruments were popular and common body shapes, I assume that it would not be out fo the question to build a gurdy with a shape similar to other instruments that were being built. I am just really curious to know if this method has any specific design characteristics that would make it unsuitable for a gurdy (a medieval gurdy, not a modern one). I have wood in sufficient dimension and am experienced in making a jointed body in his style as well. I know that if it had to be a jointed carved body, then it would have to be jointed in 3 sections so that the axle would have the full support fo the center. But for a smaller gurdy, which most of the medieval illustrations I have seen seem to imply, there are lots of species of hardwood that grow large enough and can be seasoned well enough to do this job. Chris
[HG] Now that I have some design parameters...
I went back in my list archives and saw a few years back a discussion of the HG playing angel musician at LeMans at the Cathedral. Try as I might, I can find no images of that player anywhere. But if this is the earliest depiction of a vielle with a chien, it might be a place to start designing the physical appearance of the medieval gurdy that will be my next project. If anyone has that image, could you please send it to me? Thanks Chris Nogy
Re: [HG] Now that I have some design parameters...
Another question. It was common until the 1500s to build instruments with a fully carved, one piece body and neck and head, and a flat soundboard. Rebecs all the way to bass rebecs, most of the citole, viol, and other instruments I have seen from the 1300s and 1400s were carved bodied instruments. The soundpost was an invention of the late 1500s and 1600s. Would it be acceptable to think that a medieval gurdy, from the 1300s to mid 1400s, could be a carved body instrument with no soundposts, a flat top, and moderately heavy bracing (like a viol)? The Crwth, the Citole, the Rebec, all the instruments I have built from that time have been carved bodied instruments, except for the sinphone (and it is simple to see how a straight box would have been built up, but as you get into shaped bodies like the holly leaf or waisted figure 8 bodies of the other instruments, it seems these were carved. With the exception of the lute, and even some early lutes were carved, this seems to be the norm. Would this be within the realm of possibility, or is there some aspect of the carved body design that would make a vielle with this construction impossible? Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/22/2007 at 2:57 PM Chris Nogy wrote: I went back in my list archives and saw a few years back a discussion of the HG playing angel musician at LeMans at the Cathedral. Try as I might, I can find no images of that player anywhere. But if this is the earliest depiction of a vielle with a chien, it might be a place to start designing the physical appearance of the medieval gurdy that will be my next project. If anyone has that image, could you please send it to me? Thanks Chris Nogy
Re[2]: [HG] For those with the Dewit book..
There is a book regarding the medieval crossbow by Egon Harmuth, called Die Armbrust. I used to tell people that I read a bit of German and am absolutely fluent in crossbowese, so the book made perfect sense even though it was in very technical German, not conversational. The Joseph Alm book, in Swedish, I believe, was also as easily understood. A basic understanding of the topic can go a very long way in understanding writings in almost every culture... Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/17/2007 at 3:23 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that this has been pointed out before but I will reiterate here. The book La vielle a roue written by Michael Pignol, for sale from Pascal Caranga's site or available through AMTA (I think), has a lot of information in it. Including the effects of placement of the main bridge in the regards to the wheel. The problem here being that it is all in French. If you are seriously working on the research you will have to translate the pages. I can scan the pertinent pages and send them to you for private use only. I don't think it will be a problem with the copy write. I do suggest that you get a copy of the book for general information. If you pick out a few words you can get much of the basics from the book and there are a lot of good diagrams and measurements. Scott
Re[4]: [HG] For those with the Dewit book..
Yes, I do. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/17/2007 at 11:37 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will be happy to send it out, but I will be away from the computer for the next few days working on building halberds. A subject which I am getting very familiar with. Do you also build crossbows? Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 8:17 AM Subject: Re[2]: [HG] For those with the Dewit book.. There is a book regarding the medieval crossbow by Egon Harmuth, called Die Armbrust. I used to tell people that I read a bit of German and am absolutely fluent in crossbowese, so the book made perfect sense even though it was in very technical German, not conversational. The Joseph Alm book, in Swedish, I believe, was also as easily understood. A basic understanding of the topic can go a very long way in understanding writings in almost every culture... Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/17/2007 at 3:23 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that this has been pointed out before but I will reiterate here. The book La vielle a roue written by Michael Pignol, for sale from Pascal Caranga's site or available through AMTA (I think), has a lot of information in it. Including the effects of placement of the main bridge in the regards to the wheel. The problem here being that it is all in French. If you are seriously working on the research you will have to translate the pages. I can scan the pertinent pages and send them to you for private use only. I don't think it will be a problem with the copy write. I do suggest that you get a copy of the book for general information. If you pick out a few words you can get much of the basics from the book and there are a lot of good diagrams and measurements. Scott Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Re: [HG] RE: Welcome to hg
You cannot substitute the HG for the pipes, the flourishes and the ornaments just aren't there. If you don't use the chien, and you do a unison tuning of the chanters, and 2 drones in 5ths, you can do a passable job of lots of Scottish stuff - just don't expect it to be a bagpipe or to replace the bagpipe. It will be a different kind of approach to Scottish music, reminiscent of a pipe in ways but you have to develop a whole different way of interacting with the existing music. You have to make it the gurdy's own music, not expect the gurdy to sub for something else. I for one play a lot of Scotts/Irish music on my sinphone, and it is an interesting layer to the music, and lots of people are satisfied that it sounds like the pipes they have heard in these songs before. The more experienced and knowledgable the listener, the less it just passes. The experienced listener either likes it or doesn't on it's own merit. Thank goodness, in this case, there are far more uneducated listeners, and this is mostly my audience. You can be successful, if you can accurately judge what the gurdy can bring to the music, and don't try to exceed that limit - being 'over the top' which a gurdy usually is doesn't work as well in Scotts / Irish as it does in say, Romany, Slavic, French, or English music. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/17/2007 at 5:06 PM Maria/Joel wrote: Hello all, My name is Joel Hoshaw and my wife and I both play the Celtic harp - she the nylon lever harp, and I the wire-strung. Our interest in the hurdy-gurdy stems from those scenes in The Polar Express: we, like so many, previously had only associated the word incorrectly with street organs. We were fascinated by the instrument the hobo was playing, and until recently we thought maybe it was strictly a product of the screen writer's imagination. But then I read a review of the same movie in which the instrument was mentioned by name. I did the requisite Google search, and found a number of great sites that have given me more than just a casual interest in this instrument. It appears that it could easily handle the parts of Irish and Scottish tunes that pipers normally play. I joined this list so Maria and I could broaden our knowledge. I am particularly interested in obtaining CD recordings of any Irish/Scottish music that has been played on the hurdy-gurdy. Thanks for your hospitality! Joel
Re: [HG] Wood for tops and bottoms
I buy carpathian spruce tops from Eurotonewood http://www.eurotonewood.com/ This is what I us on all my instruments from rebecs to lyres to HG. I am a fan, and the price is nice. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/15/2007 at 12:21 PM Seth Hamon wrote: Anybody know of a good source for solid piece tops and bottoms for gurdy making I've been searching the net and haven't come up with anything good yet Also what do you think of using laminate tops and bottoms... Cheers, Seth Seth Hamon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/hgpic-1.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1155.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1154.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1151.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1148.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1145.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1143.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1139.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1135.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1132.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1131.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1130.jpg http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/HPIM1129.jpg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the link! Is there a way for me to look at those photos without them zooming about? The effect made me a little queasy and I couldn't see a link to just view the pictures. Cheers, Anna Peekstok Seattle -- Original message -- From: Seth Hamon Here's aa few of the pics http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/?action=view¤t=11715544 32.pbw From: Seth Hamon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: [HG] San Antonio Gatering pics Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:56:52 + Here's a few of the pics http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/texasbagpiper/?action=viewcurrent=1171554432.pbw
[HG] Synthetic rosin - so far so good
I have recently decided to try a synthetic rosin on my sinphone - mainly to help with issues I have with humidity and temperature changes (I haul this thing around and play in the worst environments, in a tent in a downpour, in a bone-dry hot chapel choir loft, wherever an SCA event might take me). I am using Super Sensitive Clarity Rosin (violin) and so far have had some good luck with it on a baltic birch ply wheel with no band. I did have to clean and thoroughly scrape the wheel because this stuff supposedly doesn't play well with any natural rosin. It is clear and sort of soft, and it is not particularly easy to apply, but it lasts quite a while between rosinings and it stays consistent, so far, in a wide variety of environments. It isn't cheap but it isn't expensive either, at less than $10 per 'cake'. One thing I do like is that it seems to have a maximum stickiness, if you go a little overboard in applying it it doesn't seem to get any more sticky. I am still new to using it, having only started a few weeks ago, but I think it shows promise. Has anyone else tried this rosin, and does anyone have any comments? Chris Nogy
Re: [HG] Bragging on Seth
Good job, Seth. As one who built from nothing but a vibrating string measurement and some vague memories of a few actual gurdies, (no mentoring, no book, not even plans), and still came up with a playable instrument, I can tell you that this is something I think you should be proud of. It's not rocket science, but there are a lot of variables (my sinphone shows the scars of changing so many of them repeatedly) and it takes an admirable dedication and some respectable skill to go through all of that. On the plus side, I think now you probably know more about these instruments generically, the technology and the effects that things internal and external have on them, than most of the players out there, and this understanding can only help you play better and make your instruments (yours or built by someone else) sound their best. Admirable work Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/13/2007 at 1:45 PM Roy Trotter wrote: Another of the many delightful things about the weekend in San Antonio: Seth [EMAIL PROTECTED] brought his first HG. It was made from the Tolley plans and/or book. It plays. No flower planter here. I am given to understand that's pretty rare, for someone to make a Hurdy Gurdy, that acualy plays, alone, isolated as so many of us are. (it took 3 men and a horse to get mine started) SO, let's have another round of applause, please. Thanks, Roy
[HG] A new project
OK, we all know that the progression historically of the vielle was big organistrum - box sinphone - Bosch. Period. Right? I have rather a dislike of doing what everyone else does, especially in my medieval recreations. I have found that in most cases there were as many versions and presentations of relatively common items as there were people who would have built them, and so I can be unique by maintaining fidelity to the concepts and the methods of the time, applying them with reason and craftsmanship. I like to do things that scream out 'hey, there is absolutely NO reason I could not have existed' rather than building things I can document completely, as often only the richest or most well connected had documentation left of their items. I would like to build something that fits in the 1400s that is not a box sinphone, something that is a first generation 'distinct keybox' type of instrument that would be contemporary in capabilities with the Bosch but have its own look and feel. But all the documentation I can find goes from organistrum to sinphone to Bosch, there are no other pieces that I can draw a conjecture upon. I realize I don't have access to as many pieces or exhibits or displays living in the central US as people in many parts of the world, but I can't find anything contemporary with the Bosch. I could go off on a lark and build something with a flat top, back, and sides, vaguely similar to some viol and fyddle forms, and that would make sense, but not enough sense. There is a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge in the participants on this list, I would appreciate input by anyone who might have ideas on a potential late medieval / early renaissance gurdy that is NOT a Bosch. Ideas on wheel size, string number and role, crank size. For example, I know that at that time music was becoming more entertainment, more secular. Would this indicate the wheel size and crank size would be getting bigger so that players could play longer, or the wheel size and crank size getting smaller so that players could play more brightly and lively? I want to be able to present deductive documentation for something that reasonably could have existed. I don't know what changes in body shape would have occurred. I know that there are instruments built in period (citole, viol, etc) that exist today with curved tops, but many of those are conjectured to have been modified in the late 1500s or later and may have had flat tops replaced with the newer features. Anyone interested in some virtual instrument development? Thanks Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/3/2007 at 1:46 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if he is playing Branle De Cheveaux.
Re[2]: [HG] A new project
Great as a starting place. Now I'm still just studying physics on these animals, but it seems to me that a chien would be most responsive when it is placed so that it contacts the wheel just above the horizontal center at rest, but that it would be most consistent placed some distance higher on the arc. If 14 cm (about 5.5 inches give or take?) would be the practical limit of a solid wheel, then in order to get 2 chanters, 2 drones and a trompette the wheel would have to be mounted with the bearings very close to the soundboard (to give enough room for everything - 2 inches or so gets eaten up very quickly). Would there every have been a situation where the bearings and shaft were mounted above the soundboard? Just trying to get some more practical guidelines. Thanks Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/3/2007 at 7:14 PM Arle Lommel wrote: Chris, For example, I know that at that time music was becoming more entertainment, more secular. Would this indicate the wheel size and crank size would be getting bigger so that players could play longer, or the wheel size and crank size getting smaller so that players could play more brightly and lively? Rather the opposite is true. If you want to play longer, a smaller wheel with a short crank is an advantage because it minimizes the movement of the hand and wrist. The Hungarian instruments have quite small wheels and cranks, and if players really want to do the historically accurate thing of playing three-hour csárdás sets, they actually get special shorter cranks to do just that. In any event, until multiple-ply wheels were in use, your practical limit for wheel size would be not much more than 14 cm, so in the early periods you are talking about you wouldn't find large wheels at all. Best, Arle
Re[2]: [HG] Sympathetic string tuning pegs
The tool is a tap handle, you can get one for almost every size tap body at your local home center. I use mine more frequently than my little plastic 'turn to the left' doohickey... Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 2/2/2007 at 10:03 AM Roy Trotter wrote: The only time I've even seen a zither, I couldn't afford the depost for a test drive, so it might not be the same thing but... My knee-jerk reaction was autoharp pins. They are quite a bit larger (in diameter) than the pins on my HG and are not tapered. The pin-head is square, so the tuning wrench (key) might be a bit more difficult to make than the slotted type. Might be easier to buy. I have one that sez Elton on it, Oscar Schmidt would be another decent guess. They seem to have a low irony index and don't get lost like Harp tuners or a tourne-a-gauche ( which is so losable I keep it on a long sring actually tied to the head of the instrument). OK, Scott, here's the joke: So when my mom sez You'd lose your head if it wasn't tied on. I can say Actually, it's glued on, The tourne- a- gauche is tied on... She doesn't laugh either... There is a tool that is similar in principle to a pin vise or perhaps a chuck, I'll have to shop around for the name of it. Anyway it has the 4 jaws and can be adjusted a bit by screwing a threaded collar down. It has a right angle bar running thru it. It makes a useful, but inelegant substitute (when my harp tuner goes AWOL for awhile: It just came back smelling like pina colada and cocoa-butter...must have had a better time that I did...) Anyway, take my word for it, neither pliers nor a cresson wrench works. Anyway good luck with the pins, I have been wondering about that myself. The Harpsichord Solution might fit contemporary technology and sounds do-able, but Keep us posted --- Barbara Currier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does any one know of a resource for the traditional narrow tapered pegs (and probably a tapered reamer as well!) used for mounting and tuning sympathetic strings on old-style French hurdy-gurdies? ~ Matt Would zither pins do? That was my husband's first response this morning when I asked him. Barbara
Re: [HG] Building question
I am hard pressed to see pieces other than a peghead that would require lumber more than standard 4/4 or 8/4 dimension, which should be readily available at most places that sell lumber. In the US, Woodcraft stores have a pretty good selection, and they are in lots of major cities. Also a supply that is often ignored is hardwood flooring companies. But the key to laminating is and has always been to keep voids from forming in the laminates. Use a thickness sander if you have one, or make certain that your planer is set up well (planers are notorious for leaving less than ideal mating surfaces. If you have to use a large hand jointer plane to make sure your mating surfaces are perfect. I use water-thinned aliaphatic (white carpenters, like Titebond, not white craft like Elmers) and prime both surfaces with a thin coat, then when it is dry, I sand them level and apply another coat of thinned glue, and glamp with call blocks working from the center of the piece to the outside. Good clamping pressure and clamp distribution is critical. The reason for this is that vibrations can break down glue joints, and where there is a void there is usually some flex in one or the other piece that has held them apart, an active force working in the laminate. Vibration from an instrument can start in one of these voids or pockets, and destroy the glue joint from inside. You can end up with buzzes and strange vibrational dynamics if you don't have a good, void free joint. You can, and I also suggest if you have access to it, use hide glue to make your joint - treat it the same way, prime the wood surfaces with a thin layer, then activate it with a hot, wet cloth, add a little more glue, and clamp from the inside out. Don't use the brown 'hide' glue in a bottle, cook up your own, you can order it from many places. Hide glue makes a strong joint, and it helps to dampen the vibration effects in the wood joints, because of the thin bond line, the deep penetration, and the flexibility of the material. There is a reason why hide glue is so revered in instrument making - it doesn't get in the way of sound like other glues do. But in all honesty, you should try to find single pieces of wood. If you can tell me what you need, I can probably round up pieces and get them to you at a minimal cost (I probably have most of what you need in my shop). Hope this helps Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/31/2007 at 9:41 AM Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC wrote: I am having trouble finding boards thick enough for some of the larger pieces. Would it be feasible to glue two boards together to achieve a board of appropriate thickness and then cut it to shape? I have a neighbor with a joiner and planer which should theoretically make it a good fit. Thanks B
Re[2]: [HG] Building question
email me personally at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will give you a phone number and we can see what we can work out. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/31/2007 at 11:00 AM Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC wrote: Chris, Thank you very much for your generous offer. What would be a good way to contact you about my project and I could get the wood from you. All I have around here is Home Depot and I don't think a 2x4 is what I want to use for my first try. Thanks Bennett LCDR Bennett Solberg, PhD, FACHE -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Nogy Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:30 AM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] Building question I am hard pressed to see pieces other than a peghead that would require lumber more than standard 4/4 or 8/4 dimension, which should be readily available at most places that sell lumber. In the US, Woodcraft stores have a pretty good selection, and they are in lots of major cities. Also a supply that is often ignored is hardwood flooring companies. But the key to laminating is and has always been to keep voids from forming in the laminates. Use a thickness sander if you have one, or make certain that your planer is set up well (planers are notorious for leaving less than ideal mating surfaces. If you have to use a large hand jointer plane to make sure your mating surfaces are perfect. I use water-thinned aliaphatic (white carpenters, like Titebond, not white craft like Elmers) and prime both surfaces with a thin coat, then when it is dry, I sand them level and apply another coat of thinned glue, and glamp with call blocks working from the center of the piece to the outside. Good clamping pressure and clamp distribution is critical. The reason for this is that vibrations can break down glue joints, and where there is a void there is usually some flex in one or the other piece that has held them apart, an active force working in the laminate. Vibration from an instrument can start in one of these voids or pockets, and destroy the glue joint from inside. You can end up with buzzes and strange vibrational dynamics if you don't have a good, void free joint. You can, and I also suggest if you have access to it, use hide glue to make your joint - treat it the same way, prime the wood surfaces with a thin layer, then activate it with a hot, wet cloth, add a little more glue, and clamp from the inside out. Don't use the brown 'hide' glue in a bottle, cook up your own, you can order it from many places. Hide glue makes a strong joint, and it helps to dampen the vibration effects in the wood joints, because of the thin bond line, the deep penetration, and the flexibility of the material. There is a reason why hide glue is so revered in instrument making - it doesn't get in the way of sound like other glues do. But in all honesty, you should try to find single pieces of wood. If you can tell me what you need, I can probably round up pieces and get them to you at a minimal cost (I probably have most of what you need in my shop). Hope this helps Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/31/2007 at 9:41 AM Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC wrote: I am having trouble finding boards thick enough for some of the larger pieces. Would it be feasible to glue two boards together to achieve a board of appropriate thickness and then cut it to shape? I have a neighbor with a joiner and planer which should theoretically make it a good fit. Thanks B
Re: [HG] Best wood for a wheel
Baltic Birch cabinetmakers ply is what I use. I get pieces big enough for wheels for free from a local cabinetmakers shop, and I cut and face them on my metal lathe after mounting the hub. This plywood is almost completely void-free, and the way they lay up the laminates provides a very uniform edge/end grain face to the string around the whole wheel diameter. Of course, you can also band your wheel with holly, but I have found that my instruments can benefit more from other improvements right now than the benefits from banding the wheel. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/12/2007 at 12:50 PM Seth Hamon wrote: I'm still working on my homemade gurdy. I was wondering what the best wood is to use for the wheel.. Right now Its made of 12mm thick beech plywood and it seems to be the best I've used so far... I tried solid woods but they warped overnight almost...
Re[2]: [HG] Drones vs. Key Changes, was Irish?
My old piano teacher used to tape over the right hand parts and make me play only the left, week after week. Your right hand is good, your left hand is WEAK!!! WEAK!!! From now on, until I tell you different, when you play here you play sitting on your right hand. She filled my practices with boogie-woogie, swing, jazz, but only the basslines. The first to get a rhythm sense, the others to get my hand used to going all over the keyboard. After 23 years of instruction, I finally got to play both hands together (grin). And the doctors say they might be able to partially fix the right-hand shaped dent in my behind. The moral of this story - most instruments other than strings don't teach your left hand as strong as your right because that is not your melody hand. Guitar, any of the bowed instruments, bass, on those your left hand controls the melody. Thus you learn to favor it, and concentrate on it. These are the 'left hand teaching' instruments. I started to build rebecs a few years ago, and I have learned more left hand control because of them than I ever learned on piano. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/10/2007 at 9:35 AM Oscar Picazo Ruiz wrote: I agree about the percussion lessons. My first approach to music was bodhran and afrocuban percussion (congas, bongo, etc) and it has helped a lot with the right hand, and also to keep my left in time with the right. And for the left, ¿any ideas on other instruments which might help? maybe keyboards? 2007/1/9, Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jim, (and hi to everyone in hg list land) I realized I could have summarized my advice in my last email by advising you to first work on some simple hg tunes that are meant to be played on hg. That's a much easier starting point than attempting tunes that would be better on a fiddle, and might even be impossible on a hg. That wouldn't have helped you with this particular performance, though. Advice about drones vs. chords is one thing, but my main advice to you is to find some other hg players to learn from. I guess that's what this list is for, but real live people are even better than email. If there aren't hg players around, it might sound strange, but you could take drum lessons (particularly if your hg has a buzzing bridge.) I started off as a drummer, and the rhythms I learned, and the sense of rhythm I developed, are very valuable to me as a hg player now. I had a very similar experience to yours last summer, in which I was working with extremely talented, professional musicians and a composer who unfortunately composed stuff for me that was physically impossible to play on a hg. (She wanted things like lots of rhythmic buzzing bridge, but she didn't want to hear the drone string the bridge is on. That sort of thing.) Fortunately, I had the experience to know what was possible and what wasn't, so we eventually came to a musical agreement, but it took a lot of explaining. It would have been awful if I'd been in the same situation with less experience, since I wouldn't have been able to tell explain things to the composer. Enjoy your hg, and get good at it fast, since it sounds like you're in demand. Melissa james kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow, Thank you very much for the response. that was exactly what I was looking for. The hurdy gurdy is my first instrument and I am just begining to learn what music, keys at whatnot are all about. I live on Orcas Island,WA where just about anything can happen. Including a bare bones beginner being pared with a couple of musicians that play 100 concerts a year world wide. The violin my gurdy played with was built in late 1600's Italy. I had no idea what I was doing and just listened to them. I must say though, It was a huge learning experience to go on stage and know there would be no backing up. Rehearsal were no problem, but during performances I could not hear well and had to watch her play. It was my first experience playing along with someone else. I don't even know how to count. I had the advantage of watching her bow, much like a baton. I also learned how to cotton my strings so I could get a clear note on the entire range, I practiced so much I ended up changing the cotton every day. Thanks for pointing out the difference in drone instruments and other stuff.I had no idea on that . The father of the woman I played with was concert master for seattle for the last 25 years and recognized how new I was to the instrument. He loves the Hurdy Gurdy and encouraged me to continue. Thank you again on your comments, Jim Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hm. Some tunes just aren't meant to be played on hg. Many tunes, I suspect like this one you mention, just wouldn't work with a constant drone on any note, whatever the note is. In your example, your trompette and petit bourdon are playing a constant open E chord. Then whenever your open chanter sounds (which
Re[4]: [HG] Drones vs. Key Changes, was Irish?
If you want to strengthen your left hand, playing a few variations of walking bass lines continuously on a keyboard for about 15 minutes a day helps. The other trick my teacher used was to take a piece of heavy posterboard about 30 x 15, put a string through the corners on one long side, and hang it around my neck like a shelf to block me from watching while my left hand worked complex lines of more than my natural reach. Being able to instinctively identify intervals is critical to playing HG well, identifying them without looking, like a fretless string player. But since you have keys as tactile indicators, learning to operate them without looking very much strengthens your abilities with your left hand. They say you have to do something the same way 1000 times in order for it to become 'spinal reaction', or instinctive (autopilot). This is especially true in music with new techniques and new methods - a change from organ to hkeyboard synth will not be difficult, as most built up instincts transfer between the two, but changing from keyboard to violin requires an almost entirely new set of instincts be developed. And to assist in the finger changing - walking your hand up and down the keyboard (something you will need to do on any keyboard instrument of more than 5 keys, but you don't have to do on horns), run 2 octave scales on a piano with your left hand, up and down, with the proper 3-4 finger crossings, do these 15 minutes a day for a while until you get used to the feeling. You will routinely find a need to mis-finger (finger against the 'rules' of crossing over the thumb) but at least learning how to position your hand with the proper wrist movement and to keep the other fingers out of the way, simple keyboard scale drills of 2 octaves can't be beat (except, of course, simply by practicing on your HG - which is the best way to get better at it).. Chris *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/10/2007 at 10:29 AM Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC wrote: Great Story. I am hoping that I may have an advantage as I played French Horn for 20 years. We use our left hand exclusively for fingering. Granted there are only 3 keys (4 for a double), it may seem more natural. Crossing my fingers. B LCDR Bennett Solberg, PhD, FACHE -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Nogy Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:30 AM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re[2]: [HG] Drones vs. Key Changes, was Irish? My old piano teacher used to tape over the right hand parts and make me play only the left, week after week. Your right hand is good, your left hand is WEAK!!! WEAK!!! From now on, until I tell you different, when you play here you play sitting on your right hand. She filled my practices with boogie-woogie, swing, jazz, but only the basslines. The first to get a rhythm sense, the others to get my hand used to going all over the keyboard. After 23 years of instruction, I finally got to play both hands together (grin). And the doctors say they might be able to partially fix the right-hand shaped dent in my behind. The moral of this story - most instruments other than strings don't teach your left hand as strong as your right because that is not your melody hand. Guitar, any of the bowed instruments, bass, on those your left hand controls the melody. Thus you learn to favor it, and concentrate on it. These are the 'left hand teaching' instruments. I started to build rebecs a few years ago, and I have learned more left hand control because of them than I ever learned on piano. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/10/2007 at 9:35 AM Oscar Picazo Ruiz wrote: I agree about the percussion lessons. My first approach to music was bodhran and afrocuban percussion (congas, bongo, etc) and it has helped a lot with the right hand, and also to keep my left in time with the right. And for the left, ¿any ideas on other instruments which might help? maybe keyboards? 2007/1/9, Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jim, (and hi to everyone in hg list land) I realized I could have summarized my advice in my last email by advising you to first work on some simple hg tunes that are meant to be played on hg. That's a much easier starting point than attempting tunes that would be better on a fiddle, and might even be impossible on a hg. That wouldn't have helped you with this particular performance, though. Advice about drones vs. chords is one thing, but my main advice to you is to find some other hg players to learn from. I guess that's what this list is for, but real live people are even better than email. If there aren't hg players around, it might sound strange, but you could take drum lessons (particularly if your hg has a buzzing bridge.) I
Re[2]: [HG] the new guy
I agree, the sinphone style (early HG without - usually - chien) is great for being part of an ensemble, an accompaniment to strings and woods, as it is a mellower sounding instrument that blends easier (due to the absence of the buzz). It is not ideal for faster folk dance stuff, but it can be used to advantage in higher personna, more formal dance music, as well as ballad singing. And just because it doesn't have a chien doesn't mean you cannot get a certain amount of rhythm out of it by using the same techniqes - it is just much more subtle, but it can be done. My sinphone, my own design and construction, is chromatic, currently G/D, and is quite mellow for the most part (choice of strings has a lot to do with this, it has been trial and error). I know the chromatic part is kind of anachronistic, as this is an early sinphone box and would have had diatonic keys like an organistrum, but it also has 2 chantrelles for balance. And I am thinking about, if I can make space in my design, reworking it so I can add a chien for when I need one (this Sinphone of mine is a piece of furniture, not a lightweight instrument - solid and heavy which adds to it's mellowness but also makes it an extremely good instrument for travelling - it is bulletproof. I jokingly refer to it as the HG built by the Timber Framer's guild. If there is a tornado, put your valuables inside it and they will be safe. Thus the desire to add a few more features to my regular road axe - it goes everywhere with me, offten even without a case. Besides, a sinphone box is a little less jarring to the audience than a full-blown luteback with sympathetic strings and all. I find I get more listening and less gawking when I am playing my sinphone than when I am playing my buddy's luteback. And you can answer questions over the sound while you are playing... Just my 2 cents worth Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 1/8/2007 at 6:38 AM Dennis Sherman wrote: I've got a Kelischek Minnesinger that I built from a kit. (He doesn't offer the kit any longer. Despite the fact that I consider the design of the kit to be a miracle of nearly foolproof construction, nearly foolproof isn't the same as foolproof, and he apparently got too many questions coming in, so he discontinued the kit.) It is designed as a diatonic instrument, as differentiated from chromatic. In piano keyboard terms, it only plays the white keys. More accurately, it can play in any of the classical church modes by arranging the tangents for correct tuning, but it does not play accidentals. That's why it only has the one row of keys. Instruments with two rows can play sharps and flats. The question about style of music you want to play is critical here -- the Minnesinger does not have a chien, the thing that produces the rhythmic buzzing sound. If you're interested in playing dance music of any type, the Minnesinger is not for you. On the other hand, if you want to accompany yourself while singing troubador songs unamplified, it may be ideal. Instruments with a chien are likely to be too loud for an unamplified voice to be heard clearly. Hope this helps. -- Dennis Sherman Chicago, IL, USA - Original Message From: Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Monday, January 8, 2007 7:31:31 AM Subject: [HG] the new guy Hello everyone. Please excuse my ignorance but I am getting confused regarding all the different styles of HG and configurations. I am looking to start and found one that is reasonably priced for a beginner. It is a Minnesigner model made by George Kelischek in North Carolina. My confusion lies in that it has only a single row of keys. I understood that HGs have two rows similar to that of a piano keyboard. I have also been asked what kind of music I wish to play as it makes a difference to which style of HG to purchase. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. Warmest regards to perations Analyst Naval Medical Information Management Center 8901 Wisconsin Avenue, BLDG 27 Bethesda, MD 20895 Work: 301-319-1121 Cell: 301-908-0051
Re[2]: [HG] Cleaning your wheel
400 or 600 grit 'wet or dry' black silicon carbide paper (US grit and description - I use 3M products for my abrasive sheets). Garnet paper is usually too coarse. Silicon Carbide paper is very uniform, and usually finer grit than standard garnet paper. 400 grit is agressive for detail work, 600 is pretty much polishing paper. If you use the different grades of silicon carbide wet-or-dry paper, cut into strips and glued flat onto a piece of glass plate with spray adhesive you can hone cutting and turning tools, and chisels and planes and scrapers, far sharper than you can with honing stones. This is how I sharpen all my instrument making tools - I learned it from this link http://www.shavings.net/SCARY.HTM You can use this method with great success to true up the edges of straing-edged cabinet scrapers, and if the edge is really true, once burnished it can take an amazingly fine shaving - great for minimal truing of the wheel. Also, with all the instrument builders here, I thought this link would be helpful for those not already familiar with it. Chris Nogy *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/8/2006 at 3:50 PM Colin Hill wrote: Just to stir the mix again, very fine sandpaper is often referred to as flour paper because of the fineness. (My dad was a woodwork teacher). How's that for confusing? Is there a page somewhere that gives these alternative names for thing we, as players, may need to use? It would be a valuable resource and could prevent some really nasty accidents happening. In the UK the normal range is from 40 (very course) to 240 with even finer grades available (up to 2000 for some papers used for stone polishing - I have some of those and you can't feel anything on the surface, they are so fine). Not wishing to add fuel to the fire, sandpaper is now no longer available here and was replaced by glasspaper although that can also be subdivided into several different coatings such as glass, garnet paper, silicon carbide and aluminium oxide. Each really chosen for the particular job. Whilst all known as sandpaper, it would be good to have a translated list somewhere to check up on. It may also be different elsewhere in Europe as the UK hangs onto things far longer than others (we measure length in metric but the speed limit is in miles per hour). A handy site for grit size etc in the UK is http://www.diydata.com/tool/abrasives/sandpaper.htm#gritsize I would think from here that garnet paper would be the best type to use or would it? Some of the others seem a little too efficient for such delicate work. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Cleaning your wheel I like to use 600 grit ( sorry I am not sure if this translates the same across the worldwhat is 600 grains per square inch in metric terms? ). Grit in sand paper has nothing to do with particles per square inch (at least not directly), and 600 grains per square inch would be about the coarsest sandpaper imaginable... It would be something like a 2040 grit! For more on what grits mean, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Sandpaper#Grit_sizes The nearest equivalent of 600 paper outside of the U.S. is (P)1000 or (P)1200. Best, Arle
Re: [HG] NYC organ grinder story
It is the single most important God-given right of New Yorkers to hate everything with a passion. It is the primary God-given talent of New Yorkers to be able to find anything written about them or their city, and to post negatively about it. If not for those two things, anyone else could be a New Yorker... grin Chris Nogy Pittsburgh kid, second only to New Yorkers in all of the above... *** REPLY SEPARATOR ***On 5/31/2006 at 10:59 AM Melissa Kacalanos wrote: I'm catching up on old emails, so forgive my late response to the organ grinder story. It reminds me of growing up in NYC, when my mother's boyfriend, a musician and collector of antique musical mechanisms, would occasionally take his barrel organ out on the streets of Brooklyn and crank it. He had different rolls for it, though, so it could play more tunes, and it sounded great. The crowd always loved it, and even donated generously. He didn'ttake it outvery often, though. I think he was bemused to make more moneyfrom standing there and turning a crank thanfrom playing his other instruments, which took actual skill to play. To read what it's like to play our type of hg in NYC, here's my blog: http://people.tribe.net/melissatheloud/blog/04fbd651-d2a2-49a4-ab18-db76a3646019 It was deemed suitably interesting to be put on fark.com, where some 34,644 people read it, and posted their comments here: http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=2076981 They all apparently hate everything, and their reading comprehension doesn't seem much better than that of the cops I mention in myblog. Melissa Judith Lindenau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now, now, kids: don't whine.Consider this article:http://www.southflorida.com/news/la-na-organgrinder26may26,0,3915006.story?coll=sfe-guide-headlines(Of course, it's the wrong kind of hurdy gurdy, butstill--the life of the busker isn't easy.) I particularly like the lines:"...the strolling SavoyardWhen with grimy little talons he is plucking at the sharp;Tintinnabulating catgut of his wretched little harp."Life could be worse.judith-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf OfElisabeth HuspekaaSent: Friday, May 26, 2006 10:13 AMTo: hg@hurdygurdy.comSubject: Re: [HG] Hurdy-gurdies at NW Folklife FestivalDear Michele,PLEASE, pull yourself together! What do you think I should say regardingthis, sitting here in Vienna, AND the weather is awful. (-:Tell you what: We take our gurdies and go practising! - You never canpractise enough. Love, Elisabeth- Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: hg@hurdygurdy.comSent: Friday, May 26, 2006 3:39:07 PMSubject: Re: [HG] Hurdy-gurdies at NW Folklife FestivalOkay, now you are all making me weep being here on the east coast, insteadof in Seattle with all of you!Hope to see you all in September!MicheleMichele McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] (302) 453-1858National Award Winning Résumé Writer, U.S.A.Certified Coach for Job and Career Transitions DJ on 91.3 WVUD-FM;Wednesdays 6-9AM www.wvud.org Hurdy Gurdy Player; Multi-Instrumentalist;Celtic/Folk/French MusicianOn Thu, 25 May 2006 20:48:12 -0700 Christina Wright<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>writes: Dear Gurdy Enthusiasts, In fact, the hurdy gurdy jamming has not petered out at Folklife. But, as RT Taylor is not coming this year, there will probably NOT be a 24 hour presence at the festival. As of today (Thursday evening) there is a plan to jam enmasse on Sunday, beginning as close to 11 as we can manage. See you there!! Chris Wright __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
