Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[Ryan Stecker]

>For example (voided's thoughts): This could be used to create on mass
redirect servers which fill the master list just to send people to one
specific server.

>^This example is a obvious no no. But what about this: I create a plugin
that detects when my server becomes 31/32 and then redirect all new
connecting players to a secondardy less full server. Is this acceptable?

One excluded bit regarding this is that it's currently disallowed to use
the redirect command for clients who join via the internet tab of the
server browser. That makes mass redirect servers impractical unless someone
discovers an exploit to allow execution of the redirect command.

Nevertheless, I personally can't think of a practical use of the redirect
command that the existing askconnect machinery doesn't already support. It
seems to me that most server operators' use of the redirect command is
going to lead to poor user experiences. I don't think most players will
enjoy being redirected to other servers without their permission,
especially if they're playing on the original server with their friends.

If anything, the askconnect UX should be improved so that users can more
clearly be shown the redirection UI (rather than what's currently displayed
as a small UI element in the top left corner). Additionally, improvements
could be made here so that users don't have to worry about having a key
bound to the "askconnect_accept" command, as some of them have rebound or
unbound the F3 key.

Just my $0.02.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:06 PM, A Fearts  wrote:

> (I hope I'm understanding what this new command does, as I have yet to
> personally test it.)
>
> - Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
> different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking
> or certain server browser tabs.
>
> ^It would be nice if someone from Valve would create some guidelines on
> this. This command could be used to in a ways that degrade a players
> experience.
>
> For example (voided's thoughts): This could be used to create on mass
> redirect servers which fill the master list just to send people to one
> specific server.
>
> ^This example is a obvious no no. But what about this: I create a plugin
> that detects when my server becomes 31/32 and then redirect all new
> connecting players to a secondardy less full server. Is this acceptable?
>
> What about using it to load balance clients who are already connected to
> the server?
>
> It's cool we have a new command but what are the practical accepted uses
> that ask_connect_accept doesn't already fulfill?
>
> Some response from Valve would be appreciated.
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Alexander Kolev 
> wrote:
>
>> Also what does " r_drawtracers_firstperson" do? How does affect the view
>> of the game? How we should work/use the new 'redirect' cvar?
>>
>> 2015-02-12 2:36 GMT+02:00 Alexander Kolev :
>>
>>> Great update but the cvar - "cl_jiggle_bone_framerate_cutoff" is still
>>> bugged. Typing 0 does not disable the jiggle bone. Please fix this, its
>>> been a year.. meh
>>>
>>> Alexander
>>>
>>> 2015-02-12 2:24 GMT+02:00 HD :
>>>
 How do you use the "redirect" client command? Is this something applied
 in
 the configuration and if so what is the exact command?
 Example?

 Also its noted "certain server browser tabs" which ones? A little
 more
 clarification on this would be great.


 -Original Message-
 From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
 [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
 Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 7:13 PM
 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com;
 hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
 Subject: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

 We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes
 are
 below. The new version number is 2621505.

 -Eric

 --

 - Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
 - Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the
 drop
 list
 - Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth
 from
 the specified IP address will never get banned.
 - Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first
 person bullet tracer particles
 - Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
 different server. Does not function for clients that came from
 matchmaking
 or certain server browser tabs.
 - Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to
 redirect clients when they should not be able to
 - Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
 - The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values.
 Users who
 were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use
 r_drawtracers_firstpers

Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[A Fearts]

(I hope I'm understanding what this new command does, as I have yet to
personally test it.)

- Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking
or certain server browser tabs.

^It would be nice if someone from Valve would create some guidelines on
this. This command could be used to in a ways that degrade a players
experience.

For example (voided's thoughts): This could be used to create on mass
redirect servers which fill the master list just to send people to one
specific server.

^This example is a obvious no no. But what about this: I create a plugin
that detects when my server becomes 31/32 and then redirect all new
connecting players to a secondardy less full server. Is this acceptable?

What about using it to load balance clients who are already connected to
the server?

It's cool we have a new command but what are the practical accepted uses
that ask_connect_accept doesn't already fulfill?

Some response from Valve would be appreciated.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:39 PM, Alexander Kolev 
wrote:

> Also what does " r_drawtracers_firstperson" do? How does affect the view
> of the game? How we should work/use the new 'redirect' cvar?
>
> 2015-02-12 2:36 GMT+02:00 Alexander Kolev :
>
>> Great update but the cvar - "cl_jiggle_bone_framerate_cutoff" is still
>> bugged. Typing 0 does not disable the jiggle bone. Please fix this, its
>> been a year.. meh
>>
>> Alexander
>>
>> 2015-02-12 2:24 GMT+02:00 HD :
>>
>>> How do you use the "redirect" client command? Is this something applied
>>> in
>>> the configuration and if so what is the exact command?
>>> Example?
>>>
>>> Also its noted "certain server browser tabs" which ones? A little
>>> more
>>> clarification on this would be great.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 7:13 PM
>>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com;
>>> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> Subject: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released
>>>
>>> We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes
>>> are
>>> below. The new version number is 2621505.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> - Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
>>> - Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the
>>> drop
>>> list
>>> - Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth
>>> from
>>> the specified IP address will never get banned.
>>> - Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first
>>> person bullet tracer particles
>>> - Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
>>> different server. Does not function for clients that came from
>>> matchmaking
>>> or certain server browser tabs.
>>> - Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to
>>> redirect clients when they should not be able to
>>> - Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
>>> - The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values. Users
>>> who
>>> were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use
>>> r_drawtracers_firstperson 0 and r_drawviewmodel 0 to achieve the same
>>> effect.
>>> - Fixed missing Killstreak sheen effects for the Iron Bomber
>>> - Fixed the Explosive Headshot upgrade in Mann vs. Machine not applying
>>> to
>>> The Classic
>>> - Fixed the Panic Attack not using the correct sound for crits
>>> - Fixed The Peacenik's Ponytail not using the correct team skins
>>> - Fixed not being able to switch away from the Minigun while spinning
>>> down
>>> - Fixed not being able to deliver wrapped Giftapult packages
>>> - Fixed The Classic zooming-in when the Sniper teleports while charging a
>>> shot
>>> - Fixed The Bootenkhamuns not hiding the correct bodygroup when equipped
>>> - Fixed the Diamondback accumulating crits for backstabbing invlun
>>> players
>>> - Fixed players not receiving timed drops when running the game in
>>> Ukrainian
>>> - Updated weapons sounds for the axe_hit, blade_hit, and cbar_hit sound
>>> effects
>>> - Updated the equip_region for the Brimstone
>>> - Updated Mann Co. Store prices for foreign currencies to current USD
>>> equivalents
>>> - Updated the localization files
>>> - Mannpower mode changes:
>>> - Fixed bug that sometimes caused two intel briefcases to spawn
>>> - Reduced capture trigger size to match capture area on CTF_Gorge
>>> - Powerup changes:
>>> - Haste: Doubles the Medigun's uber charge build up speed
>>> - Vampire: Reduced health leeched when using the
>>> Flamethrower and Minigun
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://li

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[Ahmed Kandeel]

All of you have valid points I think.

*But I whole heartedly agree with Robert and E. Olsen. It is really
important we stick together now more than ever.*

I've made a group and lots have joined it. I can't tell which of you guys
have or haven't. However I'm discussing this with several in group chat.
One mentioned the L4D2 protest that actually got a decent response from
Valve. The group had 13K members. So presenting an argument to Valve is
possible.

I'm going to be making a website with the help of another few people to
present our arguments. If you'd like input, please by all means join the
group and be active in it.

I'd like all of you guys to help and we need all the help we can get. Use
every link to our advantage. Education is key. I had to explain to an old
player what all of this was even about since it isn't just new players who
have no idea but old players who rarely use QP too.

I remember explaining all of this to several regular spuffers who were
confused at the drop of traffic on many servers.

*People don't care because they don't know. So let us join together and
help tell people.*

*We need a unified front.*

On 12 February 2015 at 00:53, Peter Jerde  wrote:

>
> On Feb 11, 2015, at 18:26 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
> > Now we can't even have reserved slots if the server is full and an admin
> needs to get in to handle a ban report.
>
> That's not true. You just have to configure it so that nobody is ever
> _kicked_ to open up a slot, a policy we actually agreed is best.
>
> We use 32 slot servers, sm_reserve_type 0, sm_reserved_slots 8, and
> sv_visiblemaxplayers 24. Nobody who has already connected to the server
> will ever be kicked due to slot reservation -- but if the server is "full"
> at 24 players, only those with the reserved slot flag can use console to
> "connect". Quickplay never sends a player to us if we're already at 24 or
> more.
>
>  - Peter
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[Peter Jerde]

On Feb 11, 2015, at 18:26 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:

> Now we can't even have reserved slots if the server is full and an admin 
> needs to get in to handle a ban report.

That's not true. You just have to configure it so that nobody is ever _kicked_ 
to open up a slot, a policy we actually agreed is best.

We use 32 slot servers, sm_reserve_type 0, sm_reserved_slots 8, and 
sv_visiblemaxplayers 24. Nobody who has already connected to the server will 
ever be kicked due to slot reservation -- but if the server is "full" at 24 
players, only those with the reserved slot flag can use console to "connect". 
Quickplay never sends a player to us if we're already at 24 or more.

 - Peter
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Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[Alexander Kolev]

Also what does " r_drawtracers_firstperson" do? How does affect the view of
the game? How we should work/use the new 'redirect' cvar?

2015-02-12 2:36 GMT+02:00 Alexander Kolev :

> Great update but the cvar - "cl_jiggle_bone_framerate_cutoff" is still
> bugged. Typing 0 does not disable the jiggle bone. Please fix this, its
> been a year.. meh
>
> Alexander
>
> 2015-02-12 2:24 GMT+02:00 HD :
>
>> How do you use the "redirect" client command? Is this something applied in
>> the configuration and if so what is the exact command?
>> Example?
>>
>> Also its noted "certain server browser tabs" which ones? A little more
>> clarification on this would be great.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 7:13 PM
>> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com;
>> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released
>>
>> We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes
>> are
>> below. The new version number is 2621505.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>> --
>>
>> - Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
>> - Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the
>> drop
>> list
>> - Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth
>> from
>> the specified IP address will never get banned.
>> - Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first
>> person bullet tracer particles
>> - Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
>> different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking
>> or certain server browser tabs.
>> - Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to
>> redirect clients when they should not be able to
>> - Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
>> - The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values. Users
>> who
>> were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use
>> r_drawtracers_firstperson 0 and r_drawviewmodel 0 to achieve the same
>> effect.
>> - Fixed missing Killstreak sheen effects for the Iron Bomber
>> - Fixed the Explosive Headshot upgrade in Mann vs. Machine not applying to
>> The Classic
>> - Fixed the Panic Attack not using the correct sound for crits
>> - Fixed The Peacenik's Ponytail not using the correct team skins
>> - Fixed not being able to switch away from the Minigun while spinning down
>> - Fixed not being able to deliver wrapped Giftapult packages
>> - Fixed The Classic zooming-in when the Sniper teleports while charging a
>> shot
>> - Fixed The Bootenkhamuns not hiding the correct bodygroup when equipped
>> - Fixed the Diamondback accumulating crits for backstabbing invlun players
>> - Fixed players not receiving timed drops when running the game in
>> Ukrainian
>> - Updated weapons sounds for the axe_hit, blade_hit, and cbar_hit sound
>> effects
>> - Updated the equip_region for the Brimstone
>> - Updated Mann Co. Store prices for foreign currencies to current USD
>> equivalents
>> - Updated the localization files
>> - Mannpower mode changes:
>> - Fixed bug that sometimes caused two intel briefcases to spawn
>> - Reduced capture trigger size to match capture area on CTF_Gorge
>> - Powerup changes:
>> - Haste: Doubles the Medigun's uber charge build up speed
>> - Vampire: Reduced health leeched when using the
>> Flamethrower and Minigun
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[Alexander Kolev]

Great update but the cvar - "cl_jiggle_bone_framerate_cutoff" is still
bugged. Typing 0 does not disable the jiggle bone. Please fix this, its
been a year.. meh

Alexander

2015-02-12 2:24 GMT+02:00 HD :

> How do you use the "redirect" client command? Is this something applied in
> the configuration and if so what is the exact command?
> Example?
>
> Also its noted "certain server browser tabs" which ones? A little more
> clarification on this would be great.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 7:13 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com;
> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released
>
> We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes are
> below. The new version number is 2621505.
>
> -Eric
>
> --
>
> - Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
> - Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the
> drop
> list
> - Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth from
> the specified IP address will never get banned.
> - Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first
> person bullet tracer particles
> - Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
> different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking
> or certain server browser tabs.
> - Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to
> redirect clients when they should not be able to
> - Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
> - The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values. Users
> who
> were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use
> r_drawtracers_firstperson 0 and r_drawviewmodel 0 to achieve the same
> effect.
> - Fixed missing Killstreak sheen effects for the Iron Bomber
> - Fixed the Explosive Headshot upgrade in Mann vs. Machine not applying to
> The Classic
> - Fixed the Panic Attack not using the correct sound for crits
> - Fixed The Peacenik's Ponytail not using the correct team skins
> - Fixed not being able to switch away from the Minigun while spinning down
> - Fixed not being able to deliver wrapped Giftapult packages
> - Fixed The Classic zooming-in when the Sniper teleports while charging a
> shot
> - Fixed The Bootenkhamuns not hiding the correct bodygroup when equipped
> - Fixed the Diamondback accumulating crits for backstabbing invlun players
> - Fixed players not receiving timed drops when running the game in
> Ukrainian
> - Updated weapons sounds for the axe_hit, blade_hit, and cbar_hit sound
> effects
> - Updated the equip_region for the Brimstone
> - Updated Mann Co. Store prices for foreign currencies to current USD
> equivalents
> - Updated the localization files
> - Mannpower mode changes:
> - Fixed bug that sometimes caused two intel briefcases to spawn
> - Reduced capture trigger size to match capture area on CTF_Gorge
> - Powerup changes:
> - Haste: Doubles the Medigun's uber charge build up speed
> - Vampire: Reduced health leeched when using the
> Flamethrower and Minigun
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[William Pickard]

Now that tf2 has a redirect command, I guess redirection should be allowed
for quick play
On 2015-02-11 7:28 PM, "Robert Paulson"  wrote:

> That might not be your intention but that is what Valve sees. They see a
> bunch of disorganized communities who can't even agree on 1 thing, so it is
> easier to do nothing. Here is what the mailing list looks like:
>
> - I don't use attachments so disable them.
> - I don't run 32 slot servers so have quickplay kill them.
> - I don't use the MOTD so block them.
> - I don't run vanilla servers so make it Valve only.
> - I don't use plugins so block them.
> - All these quickplay cheaters are stealing my traffic even though no one
> is using community quickplay anymore.
>
> This is the kind of attitude that is killing TF2. Now we can't even have
> reserved slots if the server is full and an admin needs to get in to handle
> a ban report.
>
> Valve is smart, if they really wanted to fix the problem, they would have
> done so already without our input. The problem is that they lack motivation
> and we need to work on that instead.
>
> A rating system and blackilst covering quickplay could potentially solve
> whatever issue they have a problem with, but we don't know for sure and
> they have been posted on the list multiple times. Before we keep throwing
> random suggestions out there, we need to know what exactly is Valve's
> problem with community servers. Otherwise they will just see a bunch of
> random solutions for random problems they don't have and ignore them.
> Before they tell us their problems, the best course of action is to simply
> keep this issue in the spotlight.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:20 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Killing off competition? That's not what I was getting at. A proper
>> scoring system for quickplay would show which servers are good and liked by
>> players. Be it valve's own or certain community servers. It would also make
>> it easy for valve to see what features are liked the most. Bad servers will
>> always pop up. Having a system to combat that would make everybody happy.
>>
>> And if we are talking about "competition" that's abusing quickplay. They
>> are the ones being rewarded when valve adds such measures. As they aren't
>> afraid to lose their playbase with a ban on their server. Which itself is
>> something that may or may not happen ever again. In the meantime they can
>> do what they want to keep players on their servers longer. Even when it's
>> against the quickplay rules. This sort of thing adds up. More players join
>> such servers and the competition suffers and dies. Then you get some of
>> their players as well :).
>>
>> If valve no longer feels like enforcing their own rules then it will only
>> get worse. Little risk and why should we share players when we can take
>> each other's? This is the sort of thinking that got us into this mess and
>> these sort of people will always be around. But there's always ways to deal
>> with them. Some easier than others.
>>
>> Any communication from valve would help. They can always go for a bandaid
>> solution again. It wouldn't help much but it would be very easy to do and
>> still help a bit in the short term. Make an announcement about a renewed
>> commitment to the policy of truth (similar to the one before) and do
>> nothing. Takes very little time and it will scare some people just like it
>> did last time
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Very few players use community quickplay anymore and it was like that
>>> before a few servers started breaking quickplay rules. I assume you are
>>> talking about the Stop the Tank server. Yes it should be delisted, but even
>>> if it happens right now it isn't going to make any difference to your
>>> server population. All the other vanilla servers are empty.
>>>
>>> The dev who did this knew it was going to kill off communities, so they
>>> wouldn't have to spend any time cleaning up community servers. Complaining
>>> about this only validates his position. If server owners can't tolerate a
>>> few bad servers, how can you expect players to do the same?
>>>
>>> It is sad that we are arguing with each other and trying to add
>>> restrictions on our servers, including ones that don't exist on official
>>> ones such as class limits. If we are more interested in killing off
>>> competition than reversing the quickplay ban, we will all die together.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
 quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
 robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
 you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...

 Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss
 it as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten.
 Or m

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[Robert Paulson]

That might not be your intention but that is what Valve sees. They see a
bunch of disorganized communities who can't even agree on 1 thing, so it is
easier to do nothing. Here is what the mailing list looks like:

- I don't use attachments so disable them.
- I don't run 32 slot servers so have quickplay kill them.
- I don't use the MOTD so block them.
- I don't run vanilla servers so make it Valve only.
- I don't use plugins so block them.
- All these quickplay cheaters are stealing my traffic even though no one
is using community quickplay anymore.

This is the kind of attitude that is killing TF2. Now we can't even have
reserved slots if the server is full and an admin needs to get in to handle
a ban report.

Valve is smart, if they really wanted to fix the problem, they would have
done so already without our input. The problem is that they lack motivation
and we need to work on that instead.

A rating system and blackilst covering quickplay could potentially solve
whatever issue they have a problem with, but we don't know for sure and
they have been posted on the list multiple times. Before we keep throwing
random suggestions out there, we need to know what exactly is Valve's
problem with community servers. Otherwise they will just see a bunch of
random solutions for random problems they don't have and ignore them.
Before they tell us their problems, the best course of action is to simply
keep this issue in the spotlight.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 2:20 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Killing off competition? That's not what I was getting at. A proper
> scoring system for quickplay would show which servers are good and liked by
> players. Be it valve's own or certain community servers. It would also make
> it easy for valve to see what features are liked the most. Bad servers will
> always pop up. Having a system to combat that would make everybody happy.
>
> And if we are talking about "competition" that's abusing quickplay. They
> are the ones being rewarded when valve adds such measures. As they aren't
> afraid to lose their playbase with a ban on their server. Which itself is
> something that may or may not happen ever again. In the meantime they can
> do what they want to keep players on their servers longer. Even when it's
> against the quickplay rules. This sort of thing adds up. More players join
> such servers and the competition suffers and dies. Then you get some of
> their players as well :).
>
> If valve no longer feels like enforcing their own rules then it will only
> get worse. Little risk and why should we share players when we can take
> each other's? This is the sort of thinking that got us into this mess and
> these sort of people will always be around. But there's always ways to deal
> with them. Some easier than others.
>
> Any communication from valve would help. They can always go for a bandaid
> solution again. It wouldn't help much but it would be very easy to do and
> still help a bit in the short term. Make an announcement about a renewed
> commitment to the policy of truth (similar to the one before) and do
> nothing. Takes very little time and it will scare some people just like it
> did last time
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Very few players use community quickplay anymore and it was like that
>> before a few servers started breaking quickplay rules. I assume you are
>> talking about the Stop the Tank server. Yes it should be delisted, but even
>> if it happens right now it isn't going to make any difference to your
>> server population. All the other vanilla servers are empty.
>>
>> The dev who did this knew it was going to kill off communities, so they
>> wouldn't have to spend any time cleaning up community servers. Complaining
>> about this only validates his position. If server owners can't tolerate a
>> few bad servers, how can you expect players to do the same?
>>
>> It is sad that we are arguing with each other and trying to add
>> restrictions on our servers, including ones that don't exist on official
>> ones such as class limits. If we are more interested in killing off
>> competition than reversing the quickplay ban, we will all die together.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
>>> quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
>>> robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
>>> you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...
>>>
>>> Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss
>>> it as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten.
>>> Or maybe it was never meant to be enforced. Ban a few servers here and
>>> there and hope that everyone else is too scared to do it. Because reporting
>>> servers that were blatantly abusing it got us either nowhere or took many
>>> months before any action 

Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[HD]

How do you use the "redirect" client command? Is this something applied in
the configuration and if so what is the exact command?
Example?

Also its noted "certain server browser tabs" which ones? A little more
clarification on this would be great.


-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2015 7:13 PM
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com;
hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes are
below. The new version number is 2621505.

-Eric

--

- Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
- Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the drop
list
- Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth from
the specified IP address will never get banned.
- Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first
person bullet tracer particles
- Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a
different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking
or certain server browser tabs.
- Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to
redirect clients when they should not be able to
- Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
- The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values. Users who
were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use
r_drawtracers_firstperson 0 and r_drawviewmodel 0 to achieve the same
effect.
- Fixed missing Killstreak sheen effects for the Iron Bomber
- Fixed the Explosive Headshot upgrade in Mann vs. Machine not applying to
The Classic
- Fixed the Panic Attack not using the correct sound for crits
- Fixed The Peacenik's Ponytail not using the correct team skins
- Fixed not being able to switch away from the Minigun while spinning down
- Fixed not being able to deliver wrapped Giftapult packages
- Fixed The Classic zooming-in when the Sniper teleports while charging a
shot
- Fixed The Bootenkhamuns not hiding the correct bodygroup when equipped
- Fixed the Diamondback accumulating crits for backstabbing invlun players
- Fixed players not receiving timed drops when running the game in Ukrainian
- Updated weapons sounds for the axe_hit, blade_hit, and cbar_hit sound
effects
- Updated the equip_region for the Brimstone
- Updated Mann Co. Store prices for foreign currencies to current USD
equivalents
- Updated the localization files
- Mannpower mode changes:
- Fixed bug that sometimes caused two intel briefcases to spawn
- Reduced capture trigger size to match capture area on CTF_Gorge
- Powerup changes:
- Haste: Doubles the Medigun's uber charge build up speed
- Vampire: Reduced health leeched when using the
Flamethrower and Minigun


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[hlds] Mandatory TF2 Update Released

[Eric Smith]

We've released a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. The update notes are 
below. The new version number is 2621505.

-Eric

--

- Added Crate #90 and Crate #91 to the drop list
- Removed Naughty Winter Crate 2014 and Nice Winter Crate 2014 from the drop 
list
- Added convar sv_rcon_whitelist_address. Rcon clients failing to auth from the 
specified IP address will never get banned.
- Added convar r_drawtracers_firstperson to disable the drawing of first person 
bullet tracer particles
- Added "redirect" client command that can be used to send clients to a 
different server. Does not function for clients that came from matchmaking or 
certain server browser tabs.
- Fixed an exploit related to the "connect" command allowing servers to 
redirect clients when they should not be able to
- Fixed a client crash related to extreme viewmodel_fov settings
- The viewmodel_fov convar is now clamped to valid values. Users who 
were using this to hide the viewmodel and tracers should use 
r_drawtracers_firstperson 0 and r_drawviewmodel 0 to achieve the same effect.
- Fixed missing Killstreak sheen effects for the Iron Bomber
- Fixed the Explosive Headshot upgrade in Mann vs. Machine not applying to The 
Classic
- Fixed the Panic Attack not using the correct sound for crits
- Fixed The Peacenik's Ponytail not using the correct team skins
- Fixed not being able to switch away from the Minigun while spinning down
- Fixed not being able to deliver wrapped Giftapult packages
- Fixed The Classic zooming-in when the Sniper teleports while charging a shot
- Fixed The Bootenkhamuns not hiding the correct bodygroup when equipped
- Fixed the Diamondback accumulating crits for backstabbing invlun players
- Fixed players not receiving timed drops when running the game in Ukrainian
- Updated weapons sounds for the axe_hit, blade_hit, and cbar_hit sound effects
- Updated the equip_region for the Brimstone
- Updated Mann Co. Store prices for foreign currencies to current USD 
equivalents
- Updated the localization files
- Mannpower mode changes:
- Fixed bug that sometimes caused two intel briefcases to spawn
- Reduced capture trigger size to match capture area on CTF_Gorge
- Powerup changes:
- Haste: Doubles the Medigun's uber charge build up speed
- Vampire: Reduced health leeched when using the Flamethrower 
and Minigun


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Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[Daniel Barreiro]

   - 232250 */maxsize:* 5693179402 *(5.30
   GB)* › 5645067587 *(5.26 GB)* *(diff = -45.88 MB)*

*hurr*

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 7:08 PM, kletch1333 . 
wrote:

> Thanks Eric
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Daniel Barreiro <
> smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Eric
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Eric Smith 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We're working on a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. We should have
>>> it ready soon.
>>>
>>> -Eric
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[kletch1333 .]

Thanks Eric

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Eric
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Eric Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> We're working on a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. We should have
>> it ready soon.
>>
>> -Eric
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[Daniel Barreiro]

Thanks Eric

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 6:57 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> We're working on a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. We should have it
> ready soon.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
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[hlds] Mandatory TF2 update coming

[Eric Smith]

We're working on a mandatory update for Team Fortress 2. We should have it 
ready soon.

-Eric


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Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[1nsane]

Killing off competition? That's not what I was getting at. A proper scoring
system for quickplay would show which servers are good and liked by
players. Be it valve's own or certain community servers. It would also make
it easy for valve to see what features are liked the most. Bad servers will
always pop up. Having a system to combat that would make everybody happy.

And if we are talking about "competition" that's abusing quickplay. They
are the ones being rewarded when valve adds such measures. As they aren't
afraid to lose their playbase with a ban on their server. Which itself is
something that may or may not happen ever again. In the meantime they can
do what they want to keep players on their servers longer. Even when it's
against the quickplay rules. This sort of thing adds up. More players join
such servers and the competition suffers and dies. Then you get some of
their players as well :).

If valve no longer feels like enforcing their own rules then it will only
get worse. Little risk and why should we share players when we can take
each other's? This is the sort of thinking that got us into this mess and
these sort of people will always be around. But there's always ways to deal
with them. Some easier than others.

Any communication from valve would help. They can always go for a bandaid
solution again. It wouldn't help much but it would be very easy to do and
still help a bit in the short term. Make an announcement about a renewed
commitment to the policy of truth (similar to the one before) and do
nothing. Takes very little time and it will scare some people just like it
did last time

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Very few players use community quickplay anymore and it was like that
> before a few servers started breaking quickplay rules. I assume you are
> talking about the Stop the Tank server. Yes it should be delisted, but even
> if it happens right now it isn't going to make any difference to your
> server population. All the other vanilla servers are empty.
>
> The dev who did this knew it was going to kill off communities, so they
> wouldn't have to spend any time cleaning up community servers. Complaining
> about this only validates his position. If server owners can't tolerate a
> few bad servers, how can you expect players to do the same?
>
> It is sad that we are arguing with each other and trying to add
> restrictions on our servers, including ones that don't exist on official
> ones such as class limits. If we are more interested in killing off
> competition than reversing the quickplay ban, we will all die together.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
>> quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
>> robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
>> you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...
>>
>> Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss it
>> as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten. Or
>> maybe it was never meant to be enforced. Ban a few servers here and there
>> and hope that everyone else is too scared to do it. Because reporting
>> servers that were blatantly abusing it got us either nowhere or took many
>> months before any action came around. Then they would just spawn some new
>> servers and repeat. Making everything harder for both the players who want
>> to have fun and the server owners who wanted to provide a fun place to be.
>>
>> There's many ways to solve this. Trust new servers less until they prove
>> themselves. After all they have the least to lose if they get banned. Can
>> be fully automated and delisting will actually mean something. Imagine if
>> quickplay had some sort of a working scoring system. If only valve would
>> consider it.
>>
>> Or maybe implement something like CS:GO's overwatch (except for servers)
>> and let certain players look at server reports from other players
>> (anonymously). The less policing valve has to do manually the more likely
>> it is to make everyone in the community happy. Server ops and players alike.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:58 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> If you've found server violating the policy, by all means report them to
>>> Valve, but I don't think conducting a public "witch hunt" on the mailing
>>> list is a good idea. All I've seen in the past is quite a few false
>>> accusations, etc.  Hell, I remember a couple of years back someone getting
>>> our servers added to a reddit-based blacklist of servers that used Pinion
>>> advertising - even though we've NEVER used any advertising on our servers.
>>> It took a dozen people actually standing up and saying "uh, these guys
>>> don't use pinion" before they removed us.
>>>
>>> Honestly - I doubt even those people violating the policy are getting
>>> much in the way of quickplay traffic anyway. I on

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[E. Olsen]

@ Robert Paulson - agreed.

@ 1nsane:

Or maybe implement something like CS:GO's overwatch (except for servers)
> and let certain players look at server reports from other players
> (anonymously). The less policing valve has to do manually the more likely
> it is to make everyone in the community happy. Server ops and players alike.
>

Frankly, I hate the idea of giving certain people more power over other
players when it comes to judging this or that. It always brings up the
possibility of bias or abuse.

That's why I still truly believe all Valve needs to do is create a
client-side server blacklisting system for players that works across the
board (with both QP and the server browser). That puts the power to decide
the quality of a server (regardless of that server's settings) BACK into
the hands of the players. The servers that have great playing environments
( even to include *gasp* servers with all kinds of modifications) will
naturally get more and more traffic, and the "bad" servers will get
blacklisted by more and more players, eventually falling off the radar.

Even better - let's give players even MORE tools to find those servers that
they like. How about a giant button on the UI marked "FAVORITES" that they
can click without having to open the server browser? How about changing the
"Play Mulitplayer" button to "Valve Servers" and adding a button of EQUAL
SIZE under it labled "Community Servers"? That would also go a long way to
stop misleading new players into thinking that the "play Multiplayer"
button is the only way to play online.

Those should be relatively easy changes. Implement that, and all these
ill-conceived rules that are homogenizing a game that THRIVED on the
customization it received from the community can be thrown out, and we can
get back to doing what we do best - attracting LONG TERM players and
building our own community events around the game. ;-)

P.S. I still want an idiot-proof map editor too ;-)

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Very few players use community quickplay anymore and it was like that
> before a few servers started breaking quickplay rules. I assume you are
> talking about the Stop the Tank server. Yes it should be delisted, but even
> if it happens right now it isn't going to make any difference to your
> server population. All the other vanilla servers are empty.
>
> The dev who did this knew it was going to kill off communities, so they
> wouldn't have to spend any time cleaning up community servers. Complaining
> about this only validates his position. If server owners can't tolerate a
> few bad servers, how can you expect players to do the same?
>
> It is sad that we are arguing with each other and trying to add
> restrictions on our servers, including ones that don't exist on official
> ones such as class limits. If we are more interested in killing off
> competition than reversing the quickplay ban, we will all die together.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
>> quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
>> robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
>> you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...
>>
>> Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss it
>> as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten. Or
>> maybe it was never meant to be enforced. Ban a few servers here and there
>> and hope that everyone else is too scared to do it. Because reporting
>> servers that were blatantly abusing it got us either nowhere or took many
>> months before any action came around. Then they would just spawn some new
>> servers and repeat. Making everything harder for both the players who want
>> to have fun and the server owners who wanted to provide a fun place to be.
>>
>> There's many ways to solve this. Trust new servers less until they prove
>> themselves. After all they have the least to lose if they get banned. Can
>> be fully automated and delisting will actually mean something. Imagine if
>> quickplay had some sort of a working scoring system. If only valve would
>> consider it.
>>
>> Or maybe implement something like CS:GO's overwatch (except for servers)
>> and let certain players look at server reports from other players
>> (anonymously). The less policing valve has to do manually the more likely
>> it is to make everyone in the community happy. Server ops and players alike.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:58 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> If you've found server violating the policy, by all means report them to
>>> Valve, but I don't think conducting a public "witch hunt" on the mailing
>>> list is a good idea. All I've seen in the past is quite a few false
>>> accusations, etc.  Hell, I remember a couple of years back someone getting
>>> our servers added to a reddit-based blacklist of servers that used

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[Robert Paulson]

Very few players use community quickplay anymore and it was like that
before a few servers started breaking quickplay rules. I assume you are
talking about the Stop the Tank server. Yes it should be delisted, but even
if it happens right now it isn't going to make any difference to your
server population. All the other vanilla servers are empty.

The dev who did this knew it was going to kill off communities, so they
wouldn't have to spend any time cleaning up community servers. Complaining
about this only validates his position. If server owners can't tolerate a
few bad servers, how can you expect players to do the same?

It is sad that we are arguing with each other and trying to add
restrictions on our servers, including ones that don't exist on official
ones such as class limits. If we are more interested in killing off
competition than reversing the quickplay ban, we will all die together.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:19 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
> quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
> robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
> you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...
>
> Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss it
> as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten. Or
> maybe it was never meant to be enforced. Ban a few servers here and there
> and hope that everyone else is too scared to do it. Because reporting
> servers that were blatantly abusing it got us either nowhere or took many
> months before any action came around. Then they would just spawn some new
> servers and repeat. Making everything harder for both the players who want
> to have fun and the server owners who wanted to provide a fun place to be.
>
> There's many ways to solve this. Trust new servers less until they prove
> themselves. After all they have the least to lose if they get banned. Can
> be fully automated and delisting will actually mean something. Imagine if
> quickplay had some sort of a working scoring system. If only valve would
> consider it.
>
> Or maybe implement something like CS:GO's overwatch (except for servers)
> and let certain players look at server reports from other players
> (anonymously). The less policing valve has to do manually the more likely
> it is to make everyone in the community happy. Server ops and players alike.
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:58 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
>> If you've found server violating the policy, by all means report them to
>> Valve, but I don't think conducting a public "witch hunt" on the mailing
>> list is a good idea. All I've seen in the past is quite a few false
>> accusations, etc.  Hell, I remember a couple of years back someone getting
>> our servers added to a reddit-based blacklist of servers that used Pinion
>> advertising - even though we've NEVER used any advertising on our servers.
>> It took a dozen people actually standing up and saying "uh, these guys
>> don't use pinion" before they removed us.
>>
>> Honestly - I doubt even those people violating the policy are getting
>> much in the way of quickplay traffic anyway. I only have less than half of
>> our servers quickplay-enabled anymore, and those have sat empty since about
>> a month after the change last year.
>>
>> When you think about it, what really needs to be addressed is the reasons
>> people feel they need to violate that policy. Considering that you never
>> heard of server owners "hiding" their server settings until Valve
>> bifurcated the TF2's traffic by saying "you'll only get access to the main
>> source of traffic if you make your server identical to every other vanilla
>> server".
>>
>> Should those folks be thrown out of quickplay for breaking the rules?
>> Sure thingbut perhaps it's the rules themselves (and the way they are
>> implemented to remove/stifle any and all diversity) that need to be
>> changed, as does the implementation of quickplay itself.
>>
>> Take, for instance, the rules against class limits. Why is that still
>> listed in the policy when valve now allows class limit votes? If a class
>> limit vote passes on a quickplay-enabled server, are we now in violation -
>> even though it's part of the engine itself?
>>
>> How about another scenario: Let's say an operator wants to run his
>> servers plain-jane, 24-slot vanilla during the slow hours of the day to
>> help during daytime traffic, but at night during prime time manually
>> changes their settings to 32-slot, fast respawn servers. He's not hiding
>> anything - all the appropriate sv_tags get set - but during prime time the
>> extra slots are needed for our supporters. Is he now in violation of the
>> policy because he's changed his settings?
>>
>> Of course not - but I'm sure some folks would perceive it that way.
>>
>> and therein lies the problem. When valve decided that an automated
>> system f

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[1nsane]

I wanted to check out some other payload servers now. First
quickplay server I get sent to is half-full of players that look like
robots and the frigging payload cart has the audacity to shoot at me! Can
you imagine the horror? Well I had to experience it in person...

Second try at it was even worse if you can imagine. Won't even discuss it
as such. Pretty sure the policy of truth has long since been forgotten. Or
maybe it was never meant to be enforced. Ban a few servers here and there
and hope that everyone else is too scared to do it. Because reporting
servers that were blatantly abusing it got us either nowhere or took many
months before any action came around. Then they would just spawn some new
servers and repeat. Making everything harder for both the players who want
to have fun and the server owners who wanted to provide a fun place to be.

There's many ways to solve this. Trust new servers less until they prove
themselves. After all they have the least to lose if they get banned. Can
be fully automated and delisting will actually mean something. Imagine if
quickplay had some sort of a working scoring system. If only valve would
consider it.

Or maybe implement something like CS:GO's overwatch (except for servers)
and let certain players look at server reports from other players
(anonymously). The less policing valve has to do manually the more likely
it is to make everyone in the community happy. Server ops and players alike.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:58 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> If you've found server violating the policy, by all means report them to
> Valve, but I don't think conducting a public "witch hunt" on the mailing
> list is a good idea. All I've seen in the past is quite a few false
> accusations, etc.  Hell, I remember a couple of years back someone getting
> our servers added to a reddit-based blacklist of servers that used Pinion
> advertising - even though we've NEVER used any advertising on our servers.
> It took a dozen people actually standing up and saying "uh, these guys
> don't use pinion" before they removed us.
>
> Honestly - I doubt even those people violating the policy are getting much
> in the way of quickplay traffic anyway. I only have less than half of our
> servers quickplay-enabled anymore, and those have sat empty since about a
> month after the change last year.
>
> When you think about it, what really needs to be addressed is the reasons
> people feel they need to violate that policy. Considering that you never
> heard of server owners "hiding" their server settings until Valve
> bifurcated the TF2's traffic by saying "you'll only get access to the main
> source of traffic if you make your server identical to every other vanilla
> server".
>
> Should those folks be thrown out of quickplay for breaking the rules? Sure
> thingbut perhaps it's the rules themselves (and the way they are
> implemented to remove/stifle any and all diversity) that need to be
> changed, as does the implementation of quickplay itself.
>
> Take, for instance, the rules against class limits. Why is that still
> listed in the policy when valve now allows class limit votes? If a class
> limit vote passes on a quickplay-enabled server, are we now in violation -
> even though it's part of the engine itself?
>
> How about another scenario: Let's say an operator wants to run his servers
> plain-jane, 24-slot vanilla during the slow hours of the day to help during
> daytime traffic, but at night during prime time manually changes their
> settings to 32-slot, fast respawn servers. He's not hiding anything - all
> the appropriate sv_tags get set - but during prime time the extra slots are
> needed for our supporters. Is he now in violation of the policy because
> he's changed his settings?
>
> Of course not - but I'm sure some folks would perceive it that way.
>
> and therein lies the problem. When valve decided that an automated
> system for throwing players into a random server was superior to a player
> choosing a server on their own from the server browser, they caused more
> problems than they solved.
>
> If there are folks out there breaking those rules - I'm sure Valve will
> catch them, but frankly, If every single one of them were thrown out of
> quickplay, it wouldn't help any other community operators one bitand
> will probably just hasten the demise of community servers all together.
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Lucas Wagner  wrote:
>
>> I think the policy either needs to be enforced, or abandoned completely.
>> In the current state the policy only affects those server operators that
>> have the honor to follow it. This is not news to anyone, but it is a bit
>> disconcerting to read a policy, understand its meaning, follow it, and then
>> watch as others violate it without consequence. Sure I can sleep at night
>> knowing I did right by Valve but that doesn't keep my servers filled.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:52 AM, N-Gon  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds like a great ti

Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[E. Olsen]

If you've found server violating the policy, by all means report them to
Valve, but I don't think conducting a public "witch hunt" on the mailing
list is a good idea. All I've seen in the past is quite a few false
accusations, etc.  Hell, I remember a couple of years back someone getting
our servers added to a reddit-based blacklist of servers that used Pinion
advertising - even though we've NEVER used any advertising on our servers.
It took a dozen people actually standing up and saying "uh, these guys
don't use pinion" before they removed us.

Honestly - I doubt even those people violating the policy are getting much
in the way of quickplay traffic anyway. I only have less than half of our
servers quickplay-enabled anymore, and those have sat empty since about a
month after the change last year.

When you think about it, what really needs to be addressed is the reasons
people feel they need to violate that policy. Considering that you never
heard of server owners "hiding" their server settings until Valve
bifurcated the TF2's traffic by saying "you'll only get access to the main
source of traffic if you make your server identical to every other vanilla
server".

Should those folks be thrown out of quickplay for breaking the rules? Sure
thingbut perhaps it's the rules themselves (and the way they are
implemented to remove/stifle any and all diversity) that need to be
changed, as does the implementation of quickplay itself.

Take, for instance, the rules against class limits. Why is that still
listed in the policy when valve now allows class limit votes? If a class
limit vote passes on a quickplay-enabled server, are we now in violation -
even though it's part of the engine itself?

How about another scenario: Let's say an operator wants to run his servers
plain-jane, 24-slot vanilla during the slow hours of the day to help during
daytime traffic, but at night during prime time manually changes their
settings to 32-slot, fast respawn servers. He's not hiding anything - all
the appropriate sv_tags get set - but during prime time the extra slots are
needed for our supporters. Is he now in violation of the policy because
he's changed his settings?

Of course not - but I'm sure some folks would perceive it that way.

and therein lies the problem. When valve decided that an automated
system for throwing players into a random server was superior to a player
choosing a server on their own from the server browser, they caused more
problems than they solved.

If there are folks out there breaking those rules - I'm sure Valve will
catch them, but frankly, If every single one of them were thrown out of
quickplay, it wouldn't help any other community operators one bitand
will probably just hasten the demise of community servers all together.

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Lucas Wagner  wrote:

> I think the policy either needs to be enforced, or abandoned completely.
> In the current state the policy only affects those server operators that
> have the honor to follow it. This is not news to anyone, but it is a bit
> disconcerting to read a policy, understand its meaning, follow it, and then
> watch as others violate it without consequence. Sure I can sleep at night
> knowing I did right by Valve but that doesn't keep my servers filled.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:52 AM, N-Gon  wrote:
>
>> Sounds like a great title for a SFM short :)
>>
>> Last year Valve shook up the TF2 community by changing many of their
>> policies on Quickplay (Plenty of which is still being debated and I don't
>> want that talk in this thread, there's already numerous others for that;
>> Thanks), they also took the extra step and punished servers who broke their
>> Policy of Truth. Plenty of communities, both big and small, crumbled and
>> vanished that day to the rejoice of many of you. But now I fear the time
>> has come again to snitch.
>> Since Valve has made their Quickplay changes many communities have
>> started to cheat the system to get more traffic.
>> I've been Quickplay'd into servers that have donor effects, that kick me
>> out for reserve slots, that have silly class limitations, that don't have
>> their Respawn modifiers tagged. This is really annoying especially when I'm
>> just trying to find a Vanilla server.
>> If you know of servers, report them. If need be, spread their names on
>> here so other folks on HLDS can go see for themselves, verify they are
>> abusing Quickplay, and report them as well.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[Lucas Wagner]

I think the policy either needs to be enforced, or abandoned completely. In
the current state the policy only affects those server operators that have
the honor to follow it. This is not news to anyone, but it is a bit
disconcerting to read a policy, understand its meaning, follow it, and then
watch as others violate it without consequence. Sure I can sleep at night
knowing I did right by Valve but that doesn't keep my servers filled.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:52 AM, N-Gon  wrote:

> Sounds like a great title for a SFM short :)
>
> Last year Valve shook up the TF2 community by changing many of their
> policies on Quickplay (Plenty of which is still being debated and I don't
> want that talk in this thread, there's already numerous others for that;
> Thanks), they also took the extra step and punished servers who broke their
> Policy of Truth. Plenty of communities, both big and small, crumbled and
> vanished that day to the rejoice of many of you. But now I fear the time
> has come again to snitch.
> Since Valve has made their Quickplay changes many communities have started
> to cheat the system to get more traffic.
> I've been Quickplay'd into servers that have donor effects, that kick me
> out for reserve slots, that have silly class limitations, that don't have
> their Respawn modifiers tagged. This is really annoying especially when I'm
> just trying to find a Vanilla server.
> If you know of servers, report them. If need be, spread their names on
> here so other folks on HLDS can go see for themselves, verify they are
> abusing Quickplay, and report them as well.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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[hlds] TF2 and the Policy of Truth

[N-Gon]

Sounds like a great title for a SFM short :)

Last year Valve shook up the TF2 community by changing many of their
policies on Quickplay (Plenty of which is still being debated and I don't
want that talk in this thread, there's already numerous others for that;
Thanks), they also took the extra step and punished servers who broke their
Policy of Truth. Plenty of communities, both big and small, crumbled and
vanished that day to the rejoice of many of you. But now I fear the time
has come again to snitch.
Since Valve has made their Quickplay changes many communities have started
to cheat the system to get more traffic.
I've been Quickplay'd into servers that have donor effects, that kick me
out for reserve slots, that have silly class limitations, that don't have
their Respawn modifiers tagged. This is really annoying especially when I'm
just trying to find a Vanilla server.
If you know of servers, report them. If need be, spread their names on here
so other folks on HLDS can go see for themselves, verify they are abusing
Quickplay, and report them as well.
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Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban

[Paul]

I've had verification happen to me on actual trades too, not just trade
offers unfortunately.

On 11 February 2015 at 14:56, Daniel Barreiro <
smelly.feet.you.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's a disable button for that verification system. You just become
> responsible if you get your stuff stolen. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but
> doesn't the verification only apply to trade offers, not actual trades?
>
> Robert, the group history still exists to admins of the group. In terms of
> inviting, I have a group with over 8500 members. I have an invite system
> set up and they still go through to anyone who requests an invite. If it
> really does stop working at a certain size I haven't hit it.
>
> Tim said "Steam groups are not a good way to grab the TF team's attention
> though because they are being hidden to rot away just like TF2 community
> servers."
> When I mentioned curators, I was referring to the fact that Curators are
> based off of the steam group system. It's not like they're being "hidden"
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 7:22 PM, HD  wrote:
>
>> There are a bunch of factors right now killing off TF2.  Quickplay
>> management is the main one followed up by the current trade verification
>> system they’ve pushed onto players and their own funding path – trading.
>>
>>
>>
>> They have yet to really respond to any complaints about either one of
>> these over the last week. My only wish is they look at both situations
>> between now and the next update release which should be soon considering
>> the X-Mas/Holiday things are set to expire. Why that update was prolonged
>> deep into February is beyond me.
>>
>>
>>
>> As someone that runs many servers that depend on trading traffic for many
>> of them AND regular players for regular games I’m getting hit on both ends.
>> I’m afraid I may not continue with my servers much longer if the current
>> trends keep on the path they are following.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hlds] Rethinking the community quickplay ban

[Daniel Barreiro]

There's a disable button for that verification system. You just become
responsible if you get your stuff stolen. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but
doesn't the verification only apply to trade offers, not actual trades?

Robert, the group history still exists to admins of the group. In terms of
inviting, I have a group with over 8500 members. I have an invite system
set up and they still go through to anyone who requests an invite. If it
really does stop working at a certain size I haven't hit it.

Tim said "Steam groups are not a good way to grab the TF team's attention
though because they are being hidden to rot away just like TF2 community
servers."
When I mentioned curators, I was referring to the fact that Curators are
based off of the steam group system. It's not like they're being "hidden"


On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 7:22 PM, HD  wrote:

> There are a bunch of factors right now killing off TF2.  Quickplay
> management is the main one followed up by the current trade verification
> system they’ve pushed onto players and their own funding path – trading.
>
>
>
> They have yet to really respond to any complaints about either one of
> these over the last week. My only wish is they look at both situations
> between now and the next update release which should be soon considering
> the X-Mas/Holiday things are set to expire. Why that update was prolonged
> deep into February is beyond me.
>
>
>
> As someone that runs many servers that depend on trading traffic for many
> of them AND regular players for regular games I’m getting hit on both ends.
> I’m afraid I may not continue with my servers much longer if the current
> trends keep on the path they are following.
>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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