Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 04.06.2011, at 02:43, John Crenshaw wrote:
This is a moot point. You wouldn't send that to json_decode. You would send
it to json_encode. In other words json_decode({yay: ä}) is totally wrong
in the first place, because json_decode requires a string, not an object.
Just to quickly make another point... you couldn't necessarily send this
native JSON construct you and others dream about to json_encode() just like
that either, since json_encode() too only accepts UTF-8 encoded input.
So if you have a latin1-encoded file (still the default in Eclipse on Windows,
AFAIK) containing this:
var_dump(json_encode({foo: ä}));
Then you'll end up with
string(12) {foo:null}
Which is of course totally consistent with what happens when you do:
var_dump(json_encode(array(foo = ä)));
But try to explain *that* to the average user who doesn't even know what a
character encoding is.
It's just a totally bad idea. PHP is a language where a good number of people
still ask questions like how do I open a new browser window without an address
bar in PHP on forums. And now you want to throw yet another language construct
at them that looks like JSON, but doesn't necessarily behave like it even when
used with PHP's own JSON functionality, and does not offer any benefit
whatsoever other than the ability to copy and paste array and object
declarations between PHP and JS code.
David
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 2011-06-01, Michael Shadle mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. Why not make your data in JSON and then $foo = json_encode($data) ? Why try to adopt JSON to PHP, just so it matches another language's format? You do realize adding JavaScript syntax for arrays will only make that consistent with JavaScript, otherwise you're still coding PHP with PHP syntax, functions, etc. for everything else. That argument seems moot. If you're more comfortable with JavaScript, start developing in node if that is your cup of tea. JavaScript is not the only target here. Many, many APIs are utilizing JSON either internally or as the mechanism for communication with other systems. Additionally, have you worked with complex data structures, and attempted to de/serialize to/from PHP? ext/json does fairly well, but there are many places where it fails, and many gotchas to consider to ensure things are serialized correctly. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 2011-06-01, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. *applause* Well, said, Sean. Basically, this discussion should be likened to adding SimpleXML to PHP -- providing tools that make interoperability with other systems or languages simpler. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:52 AM, David Zülke david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote: Yes, I know. Then why are you and others demanding that the resulting syntax be fully compatible with JSON so it could be parsed by other JSON parsers? That makes no sense at all. A file with just [foo] in it won't be interpreted by PHP; you need at least ?php ? wrappers and a semicolon, and then you can't just throw it at another JSON parser anymore. I don't think anyone was asking for this. I and others have been misunderstood on this point, and there seems to be some confusion about how other systems came into this discussion. The desire is to be able to copy/paste things back and forth and make it work with only minor tweaks. For example, when debugging a query against a system that uses JSON as the standard for communication, it is invaluable to be able to copy the problem query from your code, paste it into whatever administrative interface you have, and replace any variable rvalues with constants. After the problem has been worked out, you can copy from the admin interface, paste back to the code, and restore any variables. If PHP handles an object/array syntax that is roughly similar to JSON, this becomes easy. The more different the syntaxes are, the more painful this becomes, until eventually it really isn't an option at all (which is where we are now). An example perhaps more familiar to most of us is debugging complex regular expressions. Imagine how impossible this would be if there were no way to copy the regular expression from your code to a web based debugger without rewriting it? Also, consider how frustrating it is sometimes when you paste it back and it still doesn't work, because you forgot to escape your slashes. The more manual translation the programmer has to do, the more impractical these sorts of tools become for debugging. I know a lot of people on this list have strong feelings about whether other systems should be using JSON as a query language/transfer encoding/whatever else; but, the fact is that they do. These systems are growing more popular, and not going to disappear any time soon, which means that like it or not, developers will need tools and languages that simplify the development and debugging process. This RFC should be considered (among other things) in terms of whether it is helpful to developers using these systems, but not in terms of whether anyone wishes these systems would go away (because they won't). John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 06.06.2011, at 20:03, John Crenshaw wrote: The desire is to be able to copy/paste things back and forth and make it work with only minor tweaks. That sounds like a problem an IDE should solve, and not the language itself. And again... there are potential encoding problems, plus single versus double quotes, trailing commas, and so forth. David smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Martin Scotta On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney weierophin...@php.net wrote: On 2011-06-01, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. *applause* Well, said, Sean. Basically, this discussion should be likened to adding SimpleXML to PHP -- providing tools that make interoperability with other systems or languages simpler. I don't believe this discution will lead to something. 1) Core devs don't want to change the langt. ...and linked with the modern bundle thread... 2) if you get this feature in the php version --let's say-- 5.4, it will not be installed on your shared hosting. equals) feature not available -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:52 AM, David Zülke david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote: Yes, I know. Then why are you and others demanding that the resulting syntax be fully compatible with JSON so it could be parsed by other JSON parsers? That makes no sense at all. A file with just [foo] in it won't be interpreted by PHP; you need at least ?php ? wrappers and a semicolon, and then you can't just throw it at another JSON parser anymore. I never demanded that anything resembling this. I simply stepped into this thread because of the encoding argument that ensued. There is absolutely no use case for this, but some people on this thread seem to have some weird dream where they can somehow share code between languages or whatever. Which they can't. Unless they want to start stripping or padding stuff and generating code. I was pointing out the encoding issue under the assumption that it somehow *did* make sense, e.g. that you'd have a JSON compatible declaration somewhere in a PHP file, extracted it with, say, a regex, and handed it to PHP's own JSON parser, which might then struggle depending on the encoding of the file. My impression was that people just wanted a JSON-like way to construct arrays and objects. Which does not require using a JSON parser, just the Zend parser. -Andrei -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Oops, it was a mistake. I replied to all rather than to the list, so I
apologize because I wanted to give my opinion in general and not to reply to
anybody in particular.
Regards.
2011/6/2 John Crenshaw johncrens...@priacta.com
There’s no need to be rude. If you can’t make your point without attacking
people, then you need a better argument.
“JSON” in this case just means a simple object notation using {, [, and :.
You know that. Yes, we’re all abusing the term, just like we all abuse
“AJAX”, regardless of the fact that almost nobody ACTUALLY uses XML as the
transfer encoding. Who cares? “JSON” is the best word available. Unless you
can suggest a better word to differentiate this format from the others (one
that isn’t designed to insult anyone who disagrees with you) stop fussing
about it.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
*From:* Eloy Bote Falcon [mailto:eloyb...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:58 AM
*To:* Sanford Whiteman
*Cc:* John Crenshaw; PHP internals
*Subject:* Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/6/2 Sanford Whiteman swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.com
I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect
JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression.
Then you should stop saying pure JSON and true JSON constantly!
I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all
the other JSON parsers in the world.
OK, that trashes your example, where values were set based on the
result of a PHP function. There is no par for JSON parsers running
methods _at creation time_, within the server (author) context.
Setting vars to the return value of a function is something we take
for granted in real languages, but it cannot happen within what a
knowledgeable person would call JSON.
Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes
something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the
following structure/values, because that is what the encoding
really represents.
Not Javascript developers. Maybe jQiddies think that
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')}
is JSONy more than it is JS objecty?
This is like starting from Wouldn't inline CSVs be great for creating
arrays? and drifting to I mean, not like with that comma-escaping
stuff, and, uh, newlines would be allowed in the middle of a record,
and you'd have to allow create-time interpolation of function calls.
You know, CSVy!
Only thing I might generously refer to as being JSONy, while
provably not being valid JSON, is a string that conforms in every way
_except_ for using single quotes -- everywhere that doubles are
required -- instead of using doubles. Anything else is someone's
mangled JankySON or just not JSON.
-- S.
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-1 to the RFC.
+1 to = against : if the array short syntax it's finally implemented.
I, being a lazy programmer, don't want anymore new syntax to do the same
thing. I don't care if it a) saves me houndred of kaystrokes in the
definition of arrays, or if b) it's more familiar with
_put_your_favorite_syntax_here_ because:
a) I prefer the simple way of _this_ is done _this_ way against _this_ is
done _this_ way or _this_another_ way or _this_yet_another_ way.
b) When another new fancy tendency of encoding appear I don't want to see
it in the core, because another one will appear in the future and then we
will be in the same point, stacking stuff forever or talking about
deprecating the old and breaking BC.
My point is: I'm for implementing something that can't be done currently in
PHP, but against for implementing another way of doing the same.
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Tue, 31 May 2011, Brian Moon wrote: Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Still -1. cheers, Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, Pierre Joye wrote: pls add your svn handle in the right section: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote Voting does not belong on some wiki. It belongs here on the mailinglist. Derick -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, David Zülke wrote: Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query language on top of JSON does not mean that JSON or JavaScript object literals need to be supported in PHP. Can't agree more there. Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
It's not FUD.
It is different from writing json_decode('ä\u0123'), because json_decode() in
PHP only accepts UTF-8 encoded input;
Give it a shot:
?php
$chr = \xC3\xA4; // ä as UTF-8
var_dump(json_decode('[' . $chr . '\u00e4]'));
var_dump(json_decode('[' . utf8_decode($chr) . '\u00e4]'));
?
That'll produce:
array(1) {
[0]=
string(4) ää
}
NULL
Understand what the problem is now?
If someone does this in a latin1-encoded file:
?php $fancyNewArray = {yay: ä}; ?
Then that is valid as a PHP array (as it's a latin1 ä, so \xE4), but cannot
be consumed by PHP's json_decode(). And that would be terribly inconsistent
behavior.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 22:15, Andrei Zmievski wrote:
Stop spreading FUD, please.
It's no different than writing json_decode(ä\u0123).
Your statement, the stuff in bar in UTF-8 is wrong. The \u0123
escape sequence is a representation of a Unicode character, not the
character itself. This representation can be encoded in any
ASCII-compatible encoding, such as Latin-1, UTF-8, etc. So putting it
directly in a Latin-1 encoded script is just fine.
-Andrei
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:00 PM, David Zülke
david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote:
No we can't; I already explained why in another email last night. Copypasta:
json_decode() can deal with Unicode sequences because decodes to UTF-8. That
is not possible in a language construct:
What if I do this, in a latin1 encoded file:
$x = {foo: ä, bar: \u0123}
Should that then give mixed encodings? The ä in foo in latin1 and the
stuff in bar in UTF-8?
And what if I do:
$x = {foo: ä\u0123}
I'll either end up with an invalid UTF-8 sequence, or with latin1 character
soup.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 18:04, Martin Scotta martinsco...@gmail.com wrote:
Could we first go out with fully JSON compatible version for 5.4?
and then later decide the = stuff based on how that worked.
Native JSON is a big stuff for userland, and I'm pretty sure it will bring a
hole of core version upgrades.
Martin Scotta
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote:
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here
I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego
discussion.
My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to
front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an
altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot
more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current
PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is
our
primary ElasticSearch query.
The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching;
especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned.
There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and
into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've
accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally
mistranslating my arrays into JSON.
This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's
about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less
abstracted, and a lot less prone to error.
S
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 3:11 PM, David Zülke
david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote:
It's not FUD.
It is different from writing json_decode('ä\u0123'), because json_decode() in
PHP only accepts UTF-8 encoded input;
Give it a shot:
?php
$chr = \xC3\xA4; // ä as UTF-8
var_dump(json_decode('[' . $chr . '\u00e4]'));
var_dump(json_decode('[' . utf8_decode($chr) . '\u00e4]'));
?
That'll produce:
array(1) {
[0]=
string(4) ää
}
NULL
Understand what the problem is now?
If someone does this in a latin1-encoded file:
?php $fancyNewArray = {yay: ä}; ?
Then that is valid as a PHP array (as it's a latin1 ä, so \xE4), but cannot
be consumed by PHP's json_decode(). And that would be terribly inconsistent
behavior.
David
Of course I know how json_decode() works, David. My question back to
you is, do you know how a parser works? Because there's no reason to
invoke json_decode() on $fancyNewArray, since it would already be an
object, constructed by the Zend parser. The handling of the characters
in the key/value strings is exactly the same as in normal object
property assignments.
-Andrei
P.S. Stop being so patronizing.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. the whole patch and RFC was about saving a few types of characters. so I think that some of the make JSON first class citizen in PHP supporters should open a separate RFC with pros and cons, what BC break can that cause, etc. before we can vote on that. but I think that this patch and RFC (maybe with the removal of ':', so we only support '=') could and should be voted on. but if we mix the two idea, we will lose both, at least this is what happened many times on this list. so please, update the current RFC if needed, and maybe we should restart the vote. don't make this into and endless bikeshedding with continuously throwing loosely related half-baked ideas on top of the discussion. thanks. Tyrael
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/6/2 Sanford Whiteman swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.com
I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect
JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression.
Then you should stop saying pure JSON and true JSON constantly!
I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all
the other JSON parsers in the world.
OK, that trashes your example, where values were set based on the
result of a PHP function. There is no par for JSON parsers running
methods _at creation time_, within the server (author) context.
Setting vars to the return value of a function is something we take
for granted in real languages, but it cannot happen within what a
knowledgeable person would call JSON.
Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes
something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the
following structure/values, because that is what the encoding
really represents.
Not Javascript developers. Maybe jQiddies think that
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')}
is JSONy more than it is JS objecty?
This is like starting from Wouldn't inline CSVs be great for creating
arrays? and drifting to I mean, not like with that comma-escaping
stuff, and, uh, newlines would be allowed in the middle of a record,
and you'd have to allow create-time interpolation of function calls.
You know, CSVy!
Only thing I might generously refer to as being JSONy, while
provably not being valid JSON, is a string that conforms in every way
_except_ for using single quotes -- everywhere that doubles are
required -- instead of using doubles. Anything else is someone's
mangled JankySON or just not JSON.
-- S.
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-1 to the RFC.
+1 to = against : if the array short syntax it's finally implemented.
I, being a lazy programmer, don't want anymore new syntax to do the same
thing. I don't care if it a) saves me houndred of kaystrokes in the
definition of arrays, or if b) it's more familiar with
_put_your_favorite_syntax_here_ because:
a) I prefer the simple way of _this_ is done _this_ way against _this_ is
done _this_ way or _this_another_ way or _this_yet_another_ way.
b) When another new fancy tendency of encoding appear I don't want to see it
in the core, because another one will appear in the future and then we will
be in the same point, stacking stuff forever or talking about deprecating
the old and breaking BC.
My point is: I'm for implementing something that can't be done currently in
PHP, but against for implementing another way of doing the same.
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
-Original Message- From: Michael Shadle [mailto:mike...@gmail.com] Sent: 01 June 2011 21:37 On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax (or global -1) This is a good idea to group things like this. Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing array (5 characters) before things? Not here. For me, the shorter syntax is simply an order of magnitude more readable. I really don't care how much typing is involved -- if I were really that fussed, I'd simply set my editor to expand a nice short abbreviation (such as ar, maybe) into array(). In fact, I might go do that right now, now that I've thought of it Cheers! Mike -- Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer, Libraries and Learning Innovation, Leeds Metropolitan University, C507 City Campus, Portland Way, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom E: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk T: +44 113 812 4730 To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Thu, Jun 02, 2011 at 08:21:37AM +, Ford, Mike wrote: Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing array (5 characters) before things? Not here. For me, the shorter syntax is simply an order of magnitude more readable. I really don't care how much typing is involved +1 -- Alain Williams Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT Lecturer. +44 (0) 787 668 0256 http://www.phcomp.co.uk/ Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php #include std_disclaimer.h -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
-Original Message- From: John Crenshaw [mailto:johncrens...@priacta.com] Sent: 01 June 2011 23:00 Spot on. It has nothing to do with extra typing (and that sort of design is part of what ruined Ruby). My fingers move plenty fast and if extra characters make things more safe or more readable, I'll be the first to sign up. In this case, however, the extra characters just make things messy. 1. The most readable format is pure JSON Matter of opinion. I don't agree. 2. The most familiar format is pure JSON (because these same developers are almost certainly already using it in their jQuery code) Also matter of opinion, and of experience. Apart from the fact that my use of jQuery amounts to a few weeks out of a (mumble)-year programming career, no I don't use pure JSON for it - Javascript object literals, yes, but not pure JSON. 3. The most compact format is pure JSON Um. Depends. I would tend to write 'a': 'b' in JSON, but 'a'='b' in PHP. But YMMV. 4. The format most consistent with other languages is JSON Again, matter of experience. Last time I counted, I'd used upward of 30 different programming languages and dialects, some of which had very bizarre ways of representing things, and none of which (apart from Javascript!) used a JSON-like array-literal syntax. And, actually, I *want* my PHP arrays to look different from my Javascript/JSON arrays, especially as I might be looking at both as part of the same project -- I *want* a big data structure to scream I'm PHP or I'm Javascript/JSON at me, to help trigger my brain into the right programming mode. All of this is just IMHO, of course, and probably a lot more than my regulation 2 pennorth, but there you go. Cheers! Mike -- Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer, Libraries and Learning Innovation, Leeds Metropolitan University, C507 City Campus, Portland Way, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom E: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk T: +44 113 812 4730 To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/6/2 Ford, Mike m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk: -Original Message- From: John Crenshaw [mailto:johncrens...@priacta.com] Sent: 01 June 2011 23:00 skip 4. The format most consistent with other languages is JSON Again, matter of experience. Last time I counted, I'd used upward of 30 different programming languages and dialects, some of which had very bizarre ways of representing things, and none of which (apart from Javascript!) used a JSON-like array-literal syntax. And, actually, I *want* my PHP arrays to look different from my Javascript/JSON arrays, especially as I might be looking at both as part of the same project -- I *want* a big data structure to scream I'm PHP or I'm Javascript/JSON at me, to help trigger my brain into the right programming mode. All of this is just IMHO, of course, and probably a lot more than my regulation 2 pennorth, but there you go. Cheers! Mike My thinking too. Mixind PHP arrays JS JSON in one file with same syntax will be a major headache in the future for many. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Even though I have quite mixed feelings about this, I think I am
finally ready to cast
my +1. Over the past few days I've discussed with a few people and
noticed the need, or rather a strong desire to have this feature in
PHP and most people seemed to care only little about how it was done
as long as it was done.
For the record, my initial objection with the array literals was never
the array literals themselves but the lack of object literals to
accompany the patch. I still strongly believe that we need both arrays
[] and objects {} for a complete consistent implementation,
however I'm willing to make a compromise and move forward rather than stalling.
Consider this my official +1 for [key = value]
--
David Coallier
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David Coallier
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Could we first go out with fully JSON compatible version for 5.4? and then later decide the = stuff based on how that worked. Native JSON is a big stuff for userland, and I'm pretty sure it will bring a hole of core version upgrades. Martin Scotta On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
reminder #2, pls do vote here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. Thanks, On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Also matter of opinion, and of experience. Apart from the fact that my use of jQuery amounts to a few weeks out of a (mumble)-year programming career, no I don't use pure JSON for it - Javascript object literals, yes, but not pure JSON. It's not just you. The claim that people regularly pass JSON strings within JS frameworks is comical; it would be about as smart as passing serialized PHP vars between PHP functions. I *want* my PHP arrays to look different from my Javascript/JSON arrays, especially as I might be looking at both as part of the same project -- I *want* a big data structure to scream I'm PHP or I'm Javascript/JSON at me, to help trigger my brain into the right programming mode. +1 -- S. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
There's no need to be rude. If you can't make your point without attacking
people, then you need a better argument.
JSON in this case just means a simple object notation using {, [, and :. You
know that. Yes, we're all abusing the term, just like we all abuse AJAX,
regardless of the fact that almost nobody ACTUALLY uses XML as the transfer
encoding. Who cares? JSON is the best word available. Unless you can suggest
a better word to differentiate this format from the others (one that isn't
designed to insult anyone who disagrees with you) stop fussing about it.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
From: Eloy Bote Falcon [mailto:eloyb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 3:58 AM
To: Sanford Whiteman
Cc: John Crenshaw; PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/6/2 Sanford Whiteman
swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.commailto:swhitemanlistens-softw...@cypressintegrated.com
I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect
JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression.
Then you should stop saying pure JSON and true JSON constantly!
I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all
the other JSON parsers in the world.
OK, that trashes your example, where values were set based on the
result of a PHP function. There is no par for JSON parsers running
methods _at creation time_, within the server (author) context.
Setting vars to the return value of a function is something we take
for granted in real languages, but it cannot happen within what a
knowledgeable person would call JSON.
Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes
something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the
following structure/values, because that is what the encoding
really represents.
Not Javascript developers. Maybe jQiddies think that
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')}
is JSONy more than it is JS objecty?
This is like starting from Wouldn't inline CSVs be great for creating
arrays? and drifting to I mean, not like with that comma-escaping
stuff, and, uh, newlines would be allowed in the middle of a record,
and you'd have to allow create-time interpolation of function calls.
You know, CSVy!
Only thing I might generously refer to as being JSONy, while
provably not being valid JSON, is a string that conforms in every way
_except_ for using single quotes -- everywhere that doubles are
required -- instead of using doubles. Anything else is someone's
mangled JankySON or just not JSON.
-- S.
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-1 to the RFC.
+1 to = against : if the array short syntax it's finally implemented.
I, being a lazy programmer, don't want anymore new syntax to do the same thing.
I don't care if it a) saves me houndred of kaystrokes in the definition of
arrays, or if b) it's more familiar with _put_your_favorite_syntax_here_
because:
a) I prefer the simple way of _this_ is done _this_ way against _this_ is done
_this_ way or _this_another_ way or _this_yet_another_ way.
b) When another new fancy tendency of encoding appear I don't want to see it in
the core, because another one will appear in the future and then we will be in
the same point, stacking stuff forever or talking about deprecating the old and
breaking BC.
My point is: I'm for implementing something that can't be done currently in
PHP, but against for implementing another way of doing the same.
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
No we can't; I already explained why in another email last night. Copypasta:
json_decode() can deal with Unicode sequences because decodes to UTF-8. That is
not possible in a language construct:
What if I do this, in a latin1 encoded file:
$x = {foo: ä, bar: \u0123}
Should that then give mixed encodings? The ä in foo in latin1 and the stuff
in bar in UTF-8?
And what if I do:
$x = {foo: ä\u0123}
I'll either end up with an invalid UTF-8 sequence, or with latin1 character
soup.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 18:04, Martin Scotta martinsco...@gmail.com wrote:
Could we first go out with fully JSON compatible version for 5.4?
and then later decide the = stuff based on how that worked.
Native JSON is a big stuff for userland, and I'm pretty sure it will bring a
hole of core version upgrades.
Martin Scotta
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote:
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here
I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego
discussion.
My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to
front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an
altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot
more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current
PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our
primary ElasticSearch query.
The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching;
especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned.
There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and
into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've
accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally
mistranslating my arrays into JSON.
This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's
about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less
abstracted, and a lot less prone to error.
S
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
pls do vote here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? S
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
which other discussions do you wish? Json is clearly not an option and not enough people (but a couple) likes or wants it. The RFC is about short array syntax and as far as I can see there is already a clear consensus for one of the proposed new syntax. Cheers, On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: pls do vote here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? S -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
so put +1 on both :D On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: On 6/2/11 11:08 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: reminder #2, pls do vote here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. I don't really care which syntax wins as long as one of them gets rolled in. Brian. -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 6/2/11 11:08 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: reminder #2, pls do vote here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. I don't really care which syntax wins as long as one of them gets rolled in. Brian. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
There's no need to be rude. If you can't make your point without
attacking people, then you need a better argument.
If you can't make your point without misusing terms to the point of
making yourself untrustworthy on that level alone, stop trying to
argue.
The lazy programmer axiom doesn't apply to terminology.
JSON in this case just means a simple object notation using {, [,
and :. You know that.
Nope. I have NEVER heard a knowledgeable developer use JSON in this
way. I consider myself a mid-level Javascript developer, so I'm always
learning both formal coding patterns and informal jargon from people
at the expert level -- but I've never heard this. Evidence, please,
for this claim that the term JSON is so abused by people who
provably know better.
JSON is the best word available.
Give me a break.
JavaScript object literal.
As above, no knowledgeable JS dev refers to
{ name : function(args) }
as actual or informal JSON.
Unless you can suggest a better word to differentiate this format
from the others (one that isn't designed to insult anyone who
disagrees with you) stop fussing about it.
You explicitly claimed that any browser will take your
JSON-with-interpolated-function-return. And you firmly stated you
wanted par with all the other JSON parsers in the world.
You're saying that, um, JSON parser and JavaScript engine are
known to be interchangeable?
Please, just... stop. The time taken here could be better spent
reading the JSON and ES-232 specs than making up false common
knowledge.
-- S.
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hi! https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote some devs still did not choose which syntax they want. Just to be clear on my vote, I'd really like to have [], and I think we MUST keep = there, but I don't care either way about ':'. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? which other discussions do you wish? Json is clearly not an option and not enough people (but a couple) likes or wants it. The RFC is about short array syntax and as far as I can see there is already a clear consensus for one of the proposed new syntax. I don't see why JSON (or JSON-like, or JavaScript Object Literal, or whatever the least politically-fired term of the moment) syntax is clearly not an option. I'm considering writing a new RFC that calls for first-class JSONishy syntax, but I have better things to do if it's already dead in the water. As much as I'd like to avoid drawing out this discussion, I think a premature vote that will be used as a political wedge to shut down all future syntaxes that don't use T_ARRAY is not in the best interest of PHP. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Stop spreading FUD, please.
It's no different than writing json_decode(ä\u0123).
Your statement, the stuff in bar in UTF-8 is wrong. The \u0123
escape sequence is a representation of a Unicode character, not the
character itself. This representation can be encoded in any
ASCII-compatible encoding, such as Latin-1, UTF-8, etc. So putting it
directly in a Latin-1 encoded script is just fine.
-Andrei
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:00 PM, David Zülke
david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote:
No we can't; I already explained why in another email last night. Copypasta:
json_decode() can deal with Unicode sequences because decodes to UTF-8. That
is not possible in a language construct:
What if I do this, in a latin1 encoded file:
$x = {foo: ä, bar: \u0123}
Should that then give mixed encodings? The ä in foo in latin1 and the stuff
in bar in UTF-8?
And what if I do:
$x = {foo: ä\u0123}
I'll either end up with an invalid UTF-8 sequence, or with latin1 character
soup.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 18:04, Martin Scotta martinsco...@gmail.com wrote:
Could we first go out with fully JSON compatible version for 5.4?
and then later decide the = stuff based on how that worked.
Native JSON is a big stuff for userland, and I'm pretty sure it will bring a
hole of core version upgrades.
Martin Scotta
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote:
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here
I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego
discussion.
My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to
front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an
altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot
more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current
PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our
primary ElasticSearch query.
The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching;
especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned.
There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and
into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've
accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally
mistranslating my arrays into JSON.
This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's
about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less
abstracted, and a lot less prone to error.
S
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Jun 2, 2011, at 1:19 PM, Sean Coates wrote: If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? which other discussions do you wish? Json is clearly not an option and not enough people (but a couple) likes or wants it. The RFC is about short array syntax and as far as I can see there is already a clear consensus for one of the proposed new syntax. I don't see why JSON (or JSON-like, or JavaScript Object Literal, or whatever the least politically-fired term of the moment) syntax is clearly not an option. I'm considering writing a new RFC that calls for first-class JSONishy syntax, but I have better things to do if it's already dead in the water. As much as I'd like to avoid drawing out this discussion, I think a premature vote that will be used as a political wedge to shut down all future syntaxes that don't use T_ARRAY is not in the best interest of PHP. I share this concern, and it applies to future topics and discussions. I think you creating this RFC would be helpful, and that we as a group should respect the desired timeline for proposing this alternative RFC (I assume over the weekend?). We won't be forgetting this topic (it feels like people are panicking like we will) so if said alternative isn't available or doesn't gain traction then the current [adjusted] RFC should be implemented. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? which other discussions do you wish? Json is clearly not an option and not enough people (but a couple) likes or wants it. The RFC is about short array syntax and as far as I can see there is already a clear consensus for one of the proposed new syntax. I don't see why JSON (or JSON-like, or JavaScript Object Literal, or whatever the least politically-fired term of the moment) syntax is clearly not an option. I'm considering writing a new RFC that calls for first-class JSONishy syntax, but I have better things to do if it's already dead in the water. As much as I'd like to avoid drawing out this discussion, I think a premature vote that will be used as a political wedge to shut down all future syntaxes that don't use T_ARRAY is not in the best interest of PHP. You can still vote -1 on this RFC and try to block it. That's the purpose of the votes. But arguing endlessly why json-like syntax is better without an alternative RFC and patch won't bring you anywhere. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
State the case for JSON in a separate RFC and progress will be made, but I think there is a fundamental mistake here: serialization formats are the *means* for interoperability, not the ends. The only way I see JSONy syntax would help is if PHP code —with JSONy syntax— would be parsed by a JSON parser, and I don't think that is likely to happen... if you want PHP to have a data structure behave like JSON that is another story. Add use cases, syntax descriptions, and perhaps a patch for this JSON RFC and the main argument will be better understood; an RFC will help, visceral statements and personal attacks, on the other hand, won't, so I bet your time —and everybody else's— will be better spent in writing an RFC to defend it. Regards, David On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: If people vote on this now, will further discussion about how this SHOULD work be shut down with we already voted on this? which other discussions do you wish? Json is clearly not an option and not enough people (but a couple) likes or wants it. The RFC is about short array syntax and as far as I can see there is already a clear consensus for one of the proposed new syntax. I don't see why JSON (or JSON-like, or JavaScript Object Literal, or whatever the least politically-fired term of the moment) syntax is clearly not an option. I'm considering writing a new RFC that calls for first-class JSONishy syntax, but I have better things to do if it's already dead in the water. As much as I'd like to avoid drawing out this discussion, I think a premature vote that will be used as a political wedge to shut down all future syntaxes that don't use T_ARRAY is not in the best interest of PHP. You can still vote -1 on this RFC and try to block it. That's the purpose of the votes. But arguing endlessly why json-like syntax is better without an alternative RFC and patch won't bring you anywhere. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hi! If a handful of experienced people decided to go forward with my crackpot idea above, would you be in support, just because they are? No, but I wouldn't say that nobody needs it. I'd say it's a bad idea despite somebody needing it, for reasons so and so. I figured it was tough, based on the amount of effort/time people spent. Sad to see that it seems abandoned though. Well, you know, if somebody has time/energy to pick it up - go ahead. But people that worked on it felt they are not getting the result they hoped for, so they cut their losses and moved on. The beauty of open source is that if anybody wants to pick it up it's still out there. IMHO, JSON-style syntax is *not* as readable as PHP array syntax. It's shorthanding something that is pretty short as well. That's obviously a matter of taste - I consider it more readable, for example. For elephant's sake, we're being unfavorably compared to Perl on readability! :) But seriously, if I alone felt that, I'd suck it up - as I did when it failed last time. But this time more people feel that way - so maybe it's time for a change. People change, experiences change, tastes change, languages change. is *unnecessary* as nothing is broken. I can only imagine the poor PHP developers bastardizing this so badly it takes hours to decypher what they are trying to do. I think while you point on excessive shortcutting is completely valid, in this example it is not excessive, as [] array syntax is very common (Perl, Python, Ruby, JS, D, etc.) and recognizable. -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Michael Maclean wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus snip I'm all for this, though I would confess to having a preference for the second syntax: $arr = [ 'foo' = 'bar', 'baz' = 'foo' ] seems to fit better with PHP than the other one, JSON-compatibility aside. Keeping the = does make a lot more sense since it differentiates that PHP CAN do things here that simply do not work in JSON? This ONLY works with JSON when one takes the care to avoid associative arrays, and = in my mind has always been 'associate' ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
+1 from me to *any* of the short-form suggestions (JSON or otherwise). On 31 May 2011 19:42, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/5/31 Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic +1 (patrickallaert) I wasn't present during 1st vote. Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays +1 for the current patch. Tyrael
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
2011/5/31 Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays
Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus
(http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several
people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his
thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about
it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as:
This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core
developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core
developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be
irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the
long run.
So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did
not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the
tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it
first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON
as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day
life of a PHP developer.
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about
it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki
page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below
and would like to be counted, that would be great too.
PHP SVN account holder voters
=
Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav
Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic
Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena,
Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter,
Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem
Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier
Other voters
Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin,
Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov,
Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly
Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron
Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke
--
Brian.
http://brian.moonspot.net
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@Zend
Suggestion for the Zend PHP 5.4 Certification:
Which of the following constructs are valid:
$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];
$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' : 'juice'), 'bar' : 'apple'];
$array = [[3] = 42, 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];
{$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];}
:)
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Holly crap, god save us from that.
+1 on short syntax (personally I try to avoid it in JS too - I use new
Array() or JSON), but no : please. It's just ridiculous for PHP.
2011/6/1 Patrick ALLAERT patrick.alla...@gmail.com:
2011/5/31 Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays
Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus
(http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several
people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his
thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about
it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as:
This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core
developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core
developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be
irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the
long run.
So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did
not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the
tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it
first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON
as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day
life of a PHP developer.
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about
it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki
page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below
and would like to be counted, that would be great too.
PHP SVN account holder voters
=
Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav
Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic
Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena,
Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter,
Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem
Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier
Other voters
Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin,
Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov,
Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly
Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron
Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke
--
Brian.
http://brian.moonspot.net
--
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
@Zend
Suggestion for the Zend PHP 5.4 Certification:
Which of the following constructs are valid:
$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];
$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' : 'juice'), 'bar' : 'apple'];
$array = [[3] = 42, 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];
{$array = [3 = [42], 'foo': array( 'orange' = 'juice'), 'bar' = 'apple'];}
:)
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--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Em Tue, 31 May 2011 19:42:18 +0100, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net
escreveu:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays
-1
I see very little benefit, specially in my keyboard layout, where typing [
and ] requires pressing Alt Gr + 8/9.
Plus, it can cause confusion because [] is currently used for array
dereference.
For instance:
?php
class A implements ArrayAccess {
function offsetSet($offset, $value) {}
function offsetExists($offset) {}
function offsetUnset($offset) {}
function offsetGet($offset) { var_dump($offset); }
}
$a = new A;
$a[array()];
is much more clear than
$a[[]]
--
Gustavo Lopes
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
My personal feel about this is that yes, short arrays are not bad, but things like $a = new A; $a[array()]; just scare the crap of me when I see them. To me PHP is easy on syntax and it's good. When I see Ruby or Python code with all it's crazy magic I feel sick. Still one day I will have to learn one, but that doesn't mean PHP should go that way too (i'm not alien to system languages, I had some practice with Pascal, Delphi C some years ago, just wanted to go the WEB path so migrated to PHP). If it's not too much, it would be good to avoid such strange constructs at all, because people are mean and they tend to do bad things in code. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
My kneejerk reaction to this, as no one particularly important, is to not allow mixing those syntaxes. I looked at the RFC a minute ago, and I read a reference to a parallel solution to this being named parameters. Which, I think, is not accurate. The problem with the array() notation is definitely at deep nesting levels. The fact that arrays as arguments suddenly look nicer is basically just a bonus. I really just don't want to type array() twenty-five times in the same data structure. PS: That is not to say that I wouldn't love named parameters; I would adore them. I can't count how many times I've thought that a router would benefit enormously from being able to do that. However, using an array instead worked fine - and that is cool. - M. On 6/1/2011 8:01 AM, Arvids Godjuks wrote: My personal feel about this is that yes, short arrays are not bad, but things like $a = new A; $a[array()]; just scare the crap of me when I see them. To me PHP is easy on syntax and it's good. When I see Ruby or Python code with all it's crazy magic I feel sick. Still one day I will have to learn one, but that doesn't mean PHP should go that way too (i'm not alien to system languages, I had some practice with Pascal, Delphi C some years ago, just wanted to go the WEB path so migrated to PHP). If it's not too much, it would be good to avoid such strange constructs at all, because people are mean and they tend to do bad things in code. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Am 31.05.2011 20:42, schrieb Brian Moon: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays -1 -- Sebastian BergmannCo-Founder and Principal Consultant http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
can we please (please!) focus on voting on the RFC and avoid an enumeration of all possible syntax, formats, ideas, trollsco we had in the last decade? Simply vote and let us move one. Thanks for your understanding, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Marcel Esser marcel.es...@croscon.com wrote: My kneejerk reaction to this, as no one particularly important, is to not allow mixing those syntaxes. I looked at the RFC a minute ago, and I read a reference to a parallel solution to this being named parameters. Which, I think, is not accurate. The problem with the array() notation is definitely at deep nesting levels. The fact that arrays as arguments suddenly look nicer is basically just a bonus. I really just don't want to type array() twenty-five times in the same data structure. PS: That is not to say that I wouldn't love named parameters; I would adore them. I can't count how many times I've thought that a router would benefit enormously from being able to do that. However, using an array instead worked fine - and that is cool. - M. On 6/1/2011 8:01 AM, Arvids Godjuks wrote: My personal feel about this is that yes, short arrays are not bad, but things like $a = new A; $a[array()]; just scare the crap of me when I see them. To me PHP is easy on syntax and it's good. When I see Ruby or Python code with all it's crazy magic I feel sick. Still one day I will have to learn one, but that doesn't mean PHP should go that way too (i'm not alien to system languages, I had some practice with Pascal, Delphi C some years ago, just wanted to go the WEB path so migrated to PHP). If it's not too much, it would be good to avoid such strange constructs at all, because people are mean and they tend to do bad things in code. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
pls add your svn handle in the right section: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Sebastian Bergmann sebast...@php.net wrote: Am 31.05.2011 20:42, schrieb Brian Moon: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays -1 -- Sebastian Bergmann Co-Founder and Principal Consultant http://sebastian-bergmann.de/ http://thePHP.cc/ -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
btwr, I did not mean to kill the discussions but it would be awesome if every participant would read the past discussions about this RFC and replies accordingly. Yes, there are alternatives and other needs related to this RFC, but it is really time to go with it or forget it. Cheers, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: can we please (please!) focus on voting on the RFC and avoid an enumeration of all possible syntax, formats, ideas, trollsco we had in the last decade? Simply vote and let us move one. Thanks for your understanding, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Marcel Esser marcel.es...@croscon.com wrote: My kneejerk reaction to this, as no one particularly important, is to not allow mixing those syntaxes. I looked at the RFC a minute ago, and I read a reference to a parallel solution to this being named parameters. Which, I think, is not accurate. The problem with the array() notation is definitely at deep nesting levels. The fact that arrays as arguments suddenly look nicer is basically just a bonus. I really just don't want to type array() twenty-five times in the same data structure. PS: That is not to say that I wouldn't love named parameters; I would adore them. I can't count how many times I've thought that a router would benefit enormously from being able to do that. However, using an array instead worked fine - and that is cool. - M. On 6/1/2011 8:01 AM, Arvids Godjuks wrote: My personal feel about this is that yes, short arrays are not bad, but things like $a = new A; $a[array()]; just scare the crap of me when I see them. To me PHP is easy on syntax and it's good. When I see Ruby or Python code with all it's crazy magic I feel sick. Still one day I will have to learn one, but that doesn't mean PHP should go that way too (i'm not alien to system languages, I had some practice with Pascal, Delphi C some years ago, just wanted to go the WEB path so migrated to PHP). If it's not too much, it would be good to avoid such strange constructs at all, because people are mean and they tend to do bad things in code. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 06/01/2011 01:59 AM, Rasmus wrote: Other than a couple of grumpy old-timers, I think we are in agreement that we should add a short array syntax. Well, thanks for calling me that! =) But seriously, I don't think all of these people are grumpy old-timers: Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier (yeah, I know some of them have changed their votes already) -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal --- http://pinba.org - realtime statistics for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 05/31/2011 10:42 PM, Brian Moon wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays I can has vote on this RFC https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforfunctions ? -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal --- http://pinba.org - realtime statistics for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
+1 On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus ( http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Connect with me on *http://twitter.com/jwage* http://twitter.com/jwage and http://about.me/jwage to keep in touch.
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hello, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote May I please have wiki rights restored to my user cstockton if possible, I would like to vote. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Chris Stockton wrote: Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote May I please have wiki rights restored to my user cstockton if possible, I would like to vote. It would seem some people have not been watching the news? http://www.php.net/ top news item ... But it would seem that the 'change password' processes is not being flagged properly? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hi Lester, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Chris Stockton wrote: Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote May I please have wiki rights restored to my user cstockton if possible, I would like to vote. It would seem some people have not been watching the news? http://www.php.net/ top news item ... But it would seem that the 'change password' processes is not being flagged properly? I did read that a couple months back, reset my password and logged in numerous times since (I am logged in now). However I am not able to edit articles anymore (or maybe never could?). Getting that access would be appreciated. Thanks, -Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote Who is allowed to vote?, are userland votes still going to count?, if so, how does one qualify as userland voter?. Best regards, David Vega
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I think the one that is active can be a voter. Or maybe the ones that have any karma on php environment is considered a voter. Cheers, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 4:21 PM, dukeofgaming dukeofgam...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote Who is allowed to vote?, are userland votes still going to count?, if so, how does one qualify as userland voter?. Best regards, David Vega -- Guilherme Blanco Mobile: +55 (16) 9215-8480 MSN: guilhermebla...@hotmail.com São Paulo - SP/Brazil -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Reminder: Pls add your votes here: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote Who is allowed to vote?, are userland votes still going to count?, if so, how does one qualify as userland voter?. I think the one that is active can be a voter. Or maybe the ones that have any karma on php environment is considered a voter. I'm choosing to ignore this voting mechanism because it feels wrong. And besides, this RFC is outdated and still being reviewed for comments. In other words, nobody knows what they are voting on. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Philip Olson phi...@roshambo.org wrote: I'm choosing to ignore this voting mechanism because it feels wrong. We always voted based on php.net accounts (@php.net that is), whether it is a good thing or not is another question and unrelated to this RFC (for one, I consider that non php.net people should have a voice, iirc). Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Philip Olson phi...@roshambo.org wrote:
Reminder: Pls add your votes here:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays/vote
Who is allowed to vote?, are userland votes still going to count?, if
so,
how does one qualify as userland voter?.
I think the one that is active can be a voter.
Or maybe the ones that have any karma on php environment is considered a
voter.
I'm choosing to ignore this voting mechanism because it feels wrong. And
besides, this RFC is outdated and still being reviewed for comments. In
other words, nobody knows what they are voting on.
Regards,
Philip
Yup, it feels rushed. The RFC should be cleaned up and I think this are the
main items:
- Ditch :
- Ditch the JSON topic or open a separate RFC with it
- Introduce the { } syntax for objects and change the title
Regards,
David
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:43 PM, dukeofgaming dukeofgam...@gmail.com wrote:
Yup, it feels rushed. The RFC should be cleaned up and I think this are the
main items:
- Ditch :
- Ditch the JSON topic or open a separate RFC with it
- Introduce the { } syntax for objects and change the title
Both json and objects are not part of the RFC. It could be added later
or in a new one.
I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax
(or global -1)
David
David who? :)
--
Pierre
@pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
David David who? :) David Vega
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Jun 1, 2011, at 12:43 PM, Pierre Joye wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 9:38 PM, Philip Olson phi...@roshambo.org wrote: I'm choosing to ignore this voting mechanism because it feels wrong. We always voted based on php.net accounts (@php.net that is), whether it is a good thing or not is another question and unrelated to this RFC (for one, I consider that non php.net people should have a voice, iirc). But this discussion started off so well with true brain storming and ideas coming to light. People started discussing the pros and cons, people saw and began understanding the different angles, and then some people grew tired and forced a premature vote. Yes it got a little messy, but such is life. --voting. And besides, it's rare that a tallied vote is required because typically a real consensus can be reached. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax
(or global -1)
This is a good idea to group things like this.
Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing array (5
characters) before things?
Old:
$foo = array('a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd');
More than likely new:
$foo = ['a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd'];
5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the
expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and
need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for
what, 10 years?
Oh, and for anyone desiring a : for this new shorthand, why stop at
array shorthand. Why not change this from:
foreach($foo as $key = $val)
To:
foreach($foo as $key: $val)
That would save one character for each array iteration like that.
Also - if we're worried about saving characters and shorthand why not
just remove the $ language construct? That's a LOT of keystrokes. In
my WordPress install, that's 75,412 characters saved. Versus 6,960
array( matches, which would save 34,800 characters.
These were quick examples from a coworker. Just another PHP user who
said wait why would they make another way to express an array?
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when you have
more complex structures as well. There was already a great example shown
(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html) of that.
Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the RFC), you can cut
down on a lot more verbose code, especially with objects.
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
};
Characters: 192
Current way:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$person-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
Characters: 229
That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is given PHP's
lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects and arrays (or sometimes a mix,
depending on the framework) is becoming very popular. So not only do you save
some typing just once, but if you use this pattern a lot, you save a lot of
typing over your entire project. Also, when dealing with objects, I have to
make sure I retype person correctly each time. If I don't, I'll get a notice
error. But with the new syntax, it'll throw a parsing error so I can know a lot
quicker what my issue is.
As for syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, etc all being outdated, first off no
one is suggesting to deprecate the array() function. So you will only use this
new syntax if you choose to do so. Second, we broke syntax highlighters, IDEs,
and so forth when we introduced namespaces, and every IDE and syntax
highlighter I used updated very quickly to support them. I'm assuming the IDEs
spent a great deal more time adding Namespacing support than it will to support
a short syntax for arrays and objects.
PHP has made short syntax for other things, such a if statement short codes.
Yet many books don't cover it, since it is one of those things you read in the
documentation later and decide Do I want to use this? No one is forcing
anyone to use (1 == 1 ? true : false) type of if/then logic. The same will work
with the new syntax.
My two cents.
Justin
On Jun 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Michael Shadle wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax
(or global -1)
This is a good idea to group things like this.
Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing array (5
characters) before things?
Old:
$foo = array('a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd');
More than likely new:
$foo = ['a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd'];
5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the
expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and
need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for
what, 10 years?
Oh, and for anyone desiring a : for this new shorthand, why stop at
array shorthand. Why not change this from:
foreach($foo as $key = $val)
To:
foreach($foo as $key: $val)
That would save one character for each array iteration like that.
Also - if we're worried about saving characters and shorthand why not
just remove the $ language construct? That's a LOT of keystrokes. In
my WordPress install, that's 75,412 characters saved. Versus 6,960
array( matches, which would save 34,800 characters.
These were quick examples from a coworker. Just another PHP user who
said wait why would they make another way to express an array?
--
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut
for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance).
Just my $0.02...
Anthony
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony jus...@justincarmony.com wrote:
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when you
have more complex structures as well. There was already a great example shown
(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html) of
that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the RFC), you
can cut down on a lot more verbose code, especially with objects.
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
};
Characters: 192
Current way:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$person-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
Characters: 229
That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is given PHP's
lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects and arrays (or sometimes a
mix, depending on the framework) is becoming very popular. So not only do you
save some typing just once, but if you use this pattern a lot, you save a lot
of typing over your entire project. Also, when dealing with objects, I have
to make sure I retype person correctly each time. If I don't, I'll get a
notice error. But with the new syntax, it'll throw a parsing error so I can
know a lot quicker what my issue is.
As for syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, etc all being outdated, first off no
one is suggesting to deprecate the array() function. So you will only use
this new syntax if you choose to do so. Second, we broke syntax highlighters,
IDEs, and so forth when we introduced namespaces, and every IDE and syntax
highlighter I used updated very quickly to support them. I'm assuming the
IDEs spent a great deal more time adding Namespacing support than it will to
support a short syntax for arrays and objects.
PHP has made short syntax for other things, such a if statement short codes.
Yet many books don't cover it, since it is one of those things you read in
the documentation later and decide Do I want to use this? No one is forcing
anyone to use (1 == 1 ? true : false) type of if/then logic. The same will
work with the new syntax.
My two cents.
Justin
On Jun 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Michael Shadle wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax
(or global -1)
This is a good idea to group things like this.
Back on the soapbox. All of this is just to reduce typing array (5
characters) before things?
Old:
$foo = array('a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd');
More than likely new:
$foo = ['a' = 'b', 'c' = 'd'];
5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the
expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and
need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for
what, 10 years?
Oh, and for anyone desiring a : for this new shorthand, why stop at
array shorthand. Why not change this from:
foreach($foo as $key = $val)
To:
foreach($foo as $key: $val)
That would save one character for each array iteration like that.
Also - if we're worried about saving characters and shorthand why not
just remove the $ language construct? That's a LOT of keystrokes. In
my WordPress install, that's 75,412 characters saved. Versus 6,960
array( matches,
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hello, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Michael Shadle mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: 5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for what, 10 years? My desire and perhaps the viewpoint of many others to use : over = has very little to do with typing a extra character. This feature I have seen brought up on the list time and time again, some 8 years ago being the first. Just recently more people are in favor of it I'm sure largely due to the common use and readability of JSON. I understand this discussion is for array shorthand syntax.. but I think really people just want to define their data structures like they do in JSON, I would hate to see such a common and familiar syntax be changed just for the sake of principal/familiarity. The take away from this is simply: I think we would be butchering a very clean, precise and extremely familiar syntax if we use = just to be PHP. -Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hello,
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Anthony Ferrara ircmax...@gmail.com wrote:
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
I don't think doing this is a very big deal, even in the case of Array().
$person = (object) [ 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
]
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
First, why not go the opposite way and standardize the syntax - why
not make object() or Object() work like array() or Array()?
$person = object('name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = array(4, 12, 37, 42),
'unluckyNumbers' = array(6, 13, 21),
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
);
Then you maintain consistency instead of relying on specific
characters. That makes more sense than trying to make shorthand for
something so basic to the language. I remember moving from Perl to PHP
I remember thinking what the hell? Everything is a $, how do you make
hashes?
Secondly,
Second, we broke syntax highlighters, IDEs, and so forth when we
introduced namespaces
Don't get me started on namespaces. :)
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RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Spot on. It has nothing to do with extra typing (and that sort of design is part of what ruined Ruby). My fingers move plenty fast and if extra characters make things more safe or more readable, I'll be the first to sign up. In this case, however, the extra characters just make things messy. 1. The most readable format is pure JSON 2. The most familiar format is pure JSON (because these same developers are almost certainly already using it in their jQuery code) 3. The most compact format is pure JSON 4. The format most consistent with other languages is JSON John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. -Original Message- From: Chris Stockton [mailto:chrisstockto...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:23 PM To: Michael Shadle Cc: Pierre Joye; PHP internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux) Hello, On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Michael Shadle mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: 5 character difference for each array being saved. That's it. At the expense of syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, all becoming outdated and need to be updated. For a language construct that has been around for what, 10 years? My desire and perhaps the viewpoint of many others to use : over = has very little to do with typing a extra character. This feature I have seen brought up on the list time and time again, some 8 years ago being the first. Just recently more people are in favor of it I'm sure largely due to the common use and readability of JSON. I understand this discussion is for array shorthand syntax.. but I think really people just want to define their data structures like they do in JSON, I would hate to see such a common and familiar syntax be changed just for the sake of principal/familiarity. The take away from this is simply: I think we would be butchering a very clean, precise and extremely familiar syntax if we use = just to be PHP. -Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects—they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
For small linear arrays, neither format is more readable but for even mildly
complex structures, there is a clear difference. Consider the following Mongo
query:
$query = array(
'time'=array('$and'=array(
array('$gt'=strtotime('-1 day')),
array('$lt'=time()),
)),
'$or'=array(
array('foo'='bar'),
array('hello'='world')
)
);
Vs. the JSON form:
$query = {
time: {'$and': [
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')},
{'$lt': time()},
]},
'$or': [
{foo: 'bar'},
{hello: 'world'}
]
};
Because of the clear readability difference I'll take anything, but JSON would
be much better than just an array shorthand.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmax...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:18 PM
To: PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut
for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance).
Just my $0.02...
Anthony
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony jus...@justincarmony.com wrote:
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when you
have more complex structures as well. There was already a great example shown
(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html) of
that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the RFC), you
can cut down on a lot more verbose code, especially with objects.
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
};
Characters: 192
Current way:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$person-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
Characters: 229
That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is given PHP's
lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects and arrays (or sometimes a
mix, depending on the framework) is becoming very popular. So not only do you
save some typing just once, but if you use this pattern a lot, you save a lot
of typing over your entire project. Also, when dealing with objects, I have
to make sure I retype person correctly each time. If I don't, I'll get a
notice error. But with the new syntax, it'll throw a parsing error so I can
know a lot quicker what my issue is.
As for syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, etc all being outdated, first off no
one is suggesting to deprecate the array() function. So you will only use
this new syntax if you choose to do so. Second, we broke syntax highlighters,
IDEs, and so forth when we introduced namespaces, and every IDE and syntax
highlighter I used updated very quickly to support them. I'm assuming the
IDEs spent a great deal more time adding Namespacing support than it will to
support a short syntax for arrays and objects.
PHP has made short syntax for other things, such a if statement short codes.
Yet many books don't cover it, since it is one of those things you read in
the documentation later and decide Do I want to use this? No one is forcing
anyone to use (1 == 1 ? true : false) type of if/then logic. The same will
work with the new syntax.
My two cents.
Justin
On Jun 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Michael Shadle wrote:
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I modified the vote page, pls move your votes to the desired syntax
(or global -1)
This is a good idea to group
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:59 PM, John Crenshaw johncrens...@priacta.com wrote: Spot on. It has nothing to do with extra typing (and that sort of design is part of what ruined Ruby). My fingers move plenty fast and if extra characters make things more safe or more readable, I'll be the first to sign up. In this case, however, the extra characters just make things messy. 1. The most readable format is pure JSON 2. The most familiar format is pure JSON (because these same developers are almost certainly already using it in their jQuery code) 3. The most compact format is pure JSON 4. The format most consistent with other languages is JSON Not sure which other language you refer to but python, C, perl (using () instead) uses a very similar format. To me using json (a serializer format) in code sounds wrong, very wrong, in the 1st place. What's the next step? Bson? Using JSON in the code also won't save anyone from any kind of conversions errors from or to JSON. This RFC proposed two syntaxes, which can be later extended to object as well if desired. I would stronlgy suggest to focus on this RFC and get it sort out (accepted or rejected). If it requires to clarify the RFC to make the voting easier, then let do it. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I've been giving it some more thought, and really, the more I think about it, the more I am with Sean on the idea of having first-class JSON support. It really just makes sense. PHP is a web-oriented language, and we will all use it at some point. It's also very concise, and it's really easy to learn. It really just makes things easier in the long run. X APIs are adopting JSON as a query format, hence, if we can support JSON fully, the learning curve for expressing these queries gets sliced and diced. And as Sean said, a lot less error prone. Cheers, M. -- Marcel Esser Vice President of Engineering, CROSCON +1 (202) 470-6090 marcel.es...@croscon.com Before printing this e-mail, please consider the rainforest. On 6/1/11 6:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects‹they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. Why not make your data in JSON and then $foo = json_encode($data) ? Why try to adopt JSON to PHP, just so it matches another language's format? You do realize adding JavaScript syntax for arrays will only make that consistent with JavaScript, otherwise you're still coding PHP with PHP syntax, functions, etc. for everything else. That argument seems moot. If you're more comfortable with JavaScript, start developing in node if that is your cup of tea. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Parsing together strings that mix single and double quotes, variables, defined constants and etc, makes the problem significantly worse, not better. So, json_encode is not a solution at all. It's also not about PHP vs Node in any way; it's about interacting with APIs that make heavy use of JSON or JSON-superset notations. - M. -- Marcel Esser Vice President of Engineering, CROSCON +1 (202) 470-6090 marcel.es...@croscon.com Before printing this e-mail, please consider the rainforest. On 6/1/11 6:17 PM, Michael Shadle mike...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote: This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. Why not make your data in JSON and then $foo = json_encode($data) ? Why try to adopt JSON to PHP, just so it matches another language's format? You do realize adding JavaScript syntax for arrays will only make that consistent with JavaScript, otherwise you're still coding PHP with PHP syntax, functions, etc. for everything else. That argument seems moot. If you're more comfortable with JavaScript, start developing in node if that is your cup of tea. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Why not make your data in JSON and then $foo = json_encode($data) ? For exactly the same reason people actually use callbacks efficiently, now that they don't have to create_function() them. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Vs. the JSON form:
{
time: {'$and': [
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')},
{'$lt': time()},
]},
'$or': [
{foo: 'bar'},
{hello: 'world'}
]
}
That isn't valid JSON for many different reasons... if you think
that's pure JSON, you need to spend some time with JSONLint.
If you (and others) mean Javascript object literal, say it.
(Similarly, if you mean Javascript, don't say jQuery gags.)
-- S.
--
PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I'm suddenly realizing that the actual need is, in many cases, specific to the development circumstances. When developing heavily against/with other systems that use JSON (like MongoDB, jQuery, various APIs, etc.) the value of true JSON is immeasurable, and anything that isn't JSON would look wrong in that code. On the other hand, something like ZendFramework may likely look better with something that is more internally consistent, (if it even uses the shorter syntax at all) since the primary emphasis of the code is PHP. What if both syntaxes are allowed (both pure JSON, and the PHP-like = syntax)? Individual projects could gravitate to the format that makes the most sense on a case by case basis. John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. -Original Message- From: Sean Coates [mailto:s...@seancoates.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:09 PM To: Anthony Ferrara Cc: PHP internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux) Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table here I don't think anything is officially off the table, unless we forego discussion. My application is largely JSON-powered. We pass data from back- to front-end via JSON, we interact with MongoDB via the extension (which is an altered JSON-like protocol (arrays instead of objects), but would be a lot more fluent with actual objects-they're just too hard to make in current PHP), and we interface with ElasticSearch. The paste I linked earlier is our primary ElasticSearch query. The benefits of first-class JSON are important and wide-reaching; especially when interacting with systems like the ones I've mentioned. There's a huge amount of value in being able to copy JSON out of PHP and into e.g. CURL to make a query to ElasticSearch without worrying that I've accidentally nested one level too deep or shallow, or accidentally mistranslating my arrays into JSON. This is not about saving five characters every time I type array(), it's about making my systems all work together in a way that's a little less abstracted, and a lot less prone to error. S -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Marcel Esser marcel.es...@croscon.com wrote: It's also not about PHP vs Node in any way; it's about interacting with APIs that make heavy use of JSON or JSON-superset notations. PHP supports json since years, http://www.php.net/json_decode / encode, as well as many other serialization formats that almost no human being can read. That does make it a better candidate for the PHP source code. -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query
language on top of JSON does not mean that JSON or JavaScript object literals
need to be supported in PHP. And it wouldn't be possible anyway since JSON
allows Unicode escape sequences, and PHP cannot even represent those as it is
not aware of runtime encodings.
Besides, outside the use case of json_decode(), stdClass is rarely ever useful,
so I don't understand why we're even discussing {} shorthands here. It's not in
the RFC either, so good job on focusing on the issue and not diluting the
discussion.
Getting back to the RFC: I think it's problematic to have two separate syntaxes
for the key/value separator. For consistency's sake, I'd rather just have =
but not :. Just my $0.02.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 00:09, John Crenshaw wrote:
For small linear arrays, neither format is more readable but for even
mildly complex structures, there is a clear difference. Consider the
following Mongo query:
$query = array(
'time'=array('$and'=array(
array('$gt'=strtotime('-1 day')),
array('$lt'=time()),
)),
'$or'=array(
array('foo'='bar'),
array('hello'='world')
)
);
Vs. the JSON form:
$query = {
time: {'$and': [
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')},
{'$lt': time()},
]},
'$or': [
{foo: 'bar'},
{hello: 'world'}
]
};
Because of the clear readability difference I'll take anything, but JSON
would be much better than just an array shorthand.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmax...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:18 PM
To: PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut
for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance).
Just my $0.02...
Anthony
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony jus...@justincarmony.com
wrote:
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when you
have more complex structures as well. There was already a great example
shown (http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html)
of that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the RFC),
you can cut down on a lot more verbose code, especially with objects.
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
};
Characters: 192
Current way:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$person-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
Characters: 229
That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is given
PHP's lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects and arrays (or
sometimes a mix, depending on the framework) is becoming very popular. So
not only do you save some typing just once, but if you use this pattern a
lot, you save a lot of typing over your entire project. Also, when dealing
with objects, I have to make sure I retype person correctly each time. If
I don't, I'll get a notice error. But with the new syntax, it'll throw a
parsing error so I can know a lot quicker what my issue is.
As for syntax highlighters, IDEs, books, etc all being outdated, first off
no one is suggesting to deprecate the array() function. So you will only use
this new syntax if you choose to do so. Second, we broke syntax
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I still don't get it, the idea of making it look like json wont make it json, it will be PHP, and if you dare to write you jsony object/array with single quoted strings wont break the code even when its not JSON. I'll say it again: not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON. I'll say it even more times: Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON JSON even has its own mime type. The idea of JSON as a first-class citizen is a fallacy IMHO. The concept itsel is not ugly, but for god's sake, lets put it in a separate RFC and lets decide con the actual RFC. Perhaps the JSON idea could benefit from autoboxing and a native class?: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/autoboxing JSON is a serializarion format, not a data structure, you coud write an associative array and if PHP knew the way, it could be autointerpreted as JSON, no need to make PHP code look like JSON. I think that the *BEHAVIOR* of arrays/objects as JSON and without the intervention of serialization functions should be in a separate RFC. There is really no point to make PHP *look* like JSON to handle JSON natively . This JSON matter and short array/object syntax are different issues just the way ?= and ? were. Could someone get Douglas Crockford in here?, rofl. Regards, David
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
hi David, On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 12:47 AM, David Zülke david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote: Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query language on top of JSON Many of us know that you have a deep and constant hate for MongoDB. However please do respect the netiquette and every developers here. An idea may be stupid, not necessary developers. While the idea of a binary format to transfer data is a good idea, in general. Thanks for your understanding, Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hrm. It seems to me that it's not just Mongo that has chosen that as a
query definition language. A fair number of other projects have, too. If
not as a query language, then related things.
As for decoding Unicode, well, json_decode seems to do a pretty good job.
And if I am not mistaken, they are always in quotation marks, so it
shouldn't really be such a terrible issue to delimit as such. I am not
certain about that, but, again, json_decode seems to manage.
- M.
--
Marcel Esser
Vice President of Engineering, CROSCON
+1 (202) 470-6090
marcel.es...@croscon.com
Before printing this e-mail, please consider the rainforest.
On 6/1/11 6:47 PM, David Zülke david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote:
Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query
language on top of JSON does not mean that JSON or JavaScript object
literals need to be supported in PHP. And it wouldn't be possible anyway
since JSON allows Unicode escape sequences, and PHP cannot even represent
those as it is not aware of runtime encodings.
Besides, outside the use case of json_decode(), stdClass is rarely ever
useful, so I don't understand why we're even discussing {} shorthands
here. It's not in the RFC either, so good job on focusing on the issue
and not diluting the discussion.
Getting back to the RFC: I think it's problematic to have two separate
syntaxes for the key/value separator. For consistency's sake, I'd rather
just have = but not :. Just my $0.02.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 00:09, John Crenshaw wrote:
For small linear arrays, neither format is more readable but for even
mildly complex structures, there is a clear difference. Consider the
following Mongo query:
$query = array(
'time'=array('$and'=array(
array('$gt'=strtotime('-1 day')),
array('$lt'=time()),
)),
'$or'=array(
array('foo'='bar'),
array('hello'='world')
)
);
Vs. the JSON form:
$query = {
time: {'$and': [
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')},
{'$lt': time()},
]},
'$or': [
{foo: 'bar'},
{hello: 'world'}
]
};
Because of the clear readability difference I'll take anything, but
JSON would be much better than just an array shorthand.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmax...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:18 PM
To: PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut
for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance).
Just my $0.02...
Anthony
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony
jus...@justincarmony.com wrote:
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when
you have more complex structures as well. There was already a great
example shown
(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html)
of that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the
RFC), you can cut down on a lot more verbose code, especially with
objects.
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
};
Characters: 192
Current way:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$person-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
Characters: 229
That is a 37 character difference. But the real driving factor is
given PHP's lack of named parameter syntax, passing objects
RE: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression. I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all the other JSON parsers in the world. In other words something with roughly the same syntax, constraints, and flexibility as the average browser based JavaScript implementation. Making JSON some special totally separate object type would totally miss the point and meaning of any developer writing such code. Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the following structure/values, because that is what the encoding really represents. John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. -Original Message- From: dukeofgaming [mailto:dukeofgam...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:52 PM To: Michael Shadle Cc: Sean Coates; Anthony Ferrara; PHP internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux) I still don't get it, the idea of making it look like json wont make it json, it will be PHP, and if you dare to write you jsony object/array with single quoted strings wont break the code even when its not JSON. I'll say it again: not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON. I'll say it even more times: Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON JSON even has its own mime type. The idea of JSON as a first-class citizen is a fallacy IMHO. The concept itsel is not ugly, but for god's sake, lets put it in a separate RFC and lets decide con the actual RFC. Perhaps the JSON idea could benefit from autoboxing and a native class?: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/autoboxing JSON is a serializarion format, not a data structure, you coud write an associative array and if PHP knew the way, it could be autointerpreted as JSON, no need to make PHP code look like JSON. I think that the *BEHAVIOR* of arrays/objects as JSON and without the intervention of serialization functions should be in a separate RFC. There is really no point to make PHP *look* like JSON to handle JSON natively . This JSON matter and short array/object syntax are different issues just the way ?= and ? were. Could someone get Douglas Crockford in here?, rofl. Regards, David -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
The issue I have with that is that, regardless of the syntax chosen, even if it meant a 100% inline JSON syntax, you would still (for obvious reasons) need to parse any JSON string into PHP structures. You still have to do json_load($php_or_json_string) or (god have mercy) eval($string). At that point, the only convenience you get from having JSON syntax in php is the situational ability to copy a JSON string directly into your source code. I just don't think that's worth introducing a new kind of array/object syntax into PHP. I might prefer that syntax (like python) but I don't think it's right for this language. On Jun 1, 2011, at 6:28 PM, John Crenshaw wrote: I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression. I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all the other JSON parsers in the world. In other words something with roughly the same syntax, constraints, and flexibility as the average browser based JavaScript implementation. Making JSON some special totally separate object type would totally miss the point and meaning of any developer writing such code. Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the following structure/values, because that is what the encoding really represents. John Crenshaw Priacta, Inc. -Original Message- From: dukeofgaming [mailto:dukeofgam...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 6:52 PM To: Michael Shadle Cc: Sean Coates; Anthony Ferrara; PHP internals Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux) I still don't get it, the idea of making it look like json wont make it json, it will be PHP, and if you dare to write you jsony object/array with single quoted strings wont break the code even when its not JSON. I'll say it again: not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON. I'll say it even more times: Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON Not even Javascript supports 100% valid JSON JSON even has its own mime type. The idea of JSON as a first-class citizen is a fallacy IMHO. The concept itsel is not ugly, but for god's sake, lets put it in a separate RFC and lets decide con the actual RFC. Perhaps the JSON idea could benefit from autoboxing and a native class?: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/autoboxing JSON is a serializarion format, not a data structure, you coud write an associative array and if PHP knew the way, it could be autointerpreted as JSON, no need to make PHP code look like JSON. I think that the *BEHAVIOR* of arrays/objects as JSON and without the intervention of serialization functions should be in a separate RFC. There is really no point to make PHP *look* like JSON to handle JSON natively . This JSON matter and short array/object syntax are different issues just the way ?= and ? were. Could someone get Douglas Crockford in here?, rofl. Regards, David -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 02.06.2011, at 00:53, Marcel Esser wrote:
Hrm. It seems to me that it's not just Mongo that has chosen that as a
query definition language. A fair number of other projects have, too. If
not as a query language, then related things.
It's the worst idea of this decade, and just because others have repeated it,
it's not automatically a good one. {foo: 1, bar: 1} works fine, so they
implemented that, and then they realized that they had to do ORs as well, so
they invented $or and a whole bunch of other workarounds.
As for decoding Unicode, well, json_decode seems to do a pretty good job.
And if I am not mistaken, they are always in quotation marks, so it
shouldn't really be such a terrible issue to delimit as such. I am not
certain about that, but, again, json_decode seems to manage.
json_decode() decodes to UTF-8.
What if I do this, in a latin1 encoded file:
$x = {foo: ä, bar: \u0123}
Should that then give mixed encodings? The ä in foo in latin1 and the stuff
in bar in UTF-8?
And what if I do:
$x = {foo: ä\u0123}
I'll either end up with an invalid UTF-8 sequence, or with latin1 character
soup.
David
- M.
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Before printing this e-mail, please consider the rainforest.
On 6/1/11 6:47 PM, David Zülke david.zue...@bitextender.com wrote:
Just because the MongoDB developers were stupid enough to build a query
language on top of JSON does not mean that JSON or JavaScript object
literals need to be supported in PHP. And it wouldn't be possible anyway
since JSON allows Unicode escape sequences, and PHP cannot even represent
those as it is not aware of runtime encodings.
Besides, outside the use case of json_decode(), stdClass is rarely ever
useful, so I don't understand why we're even discussing {} shorthands
here. It's not in the RFC either, so good job on focusing on the issue
and not diluting the discussion.
Getting back to the RFC: I think it's problematic to have two separate
syntaxes for the key/value separator. For consistency's sake, I'd rather
just have = but not :. Just my $0.02.
David
On 02.06.2011, at 00:09, John Crenshaw wrote:
For small linear arrays, neither format is more readable but for even
mildly complex structures, there is a clear difference. Consider the
following Mongo query:
$query = array(
'time'=array('$and'=array(
array('$gt'=strtotime('-1 day')),
array('$lt'=time()),
)),
'$or'=array(
array('foo'='bar'),
array('hello'='world')
)
);
Vs. the JSON form:
$query = {
time: {'$and': [
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')},
{'$lt': time()},
]},
'$or': [
{foo: 'bar'},
{hello: 'world'}
]
};
Because of the clear readability difference I'll take anything, but
JSON would be much better than just an array shorthand.
John Crenshaw
Priacta, Inc.
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Ferrara [mailto:ircmax...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:18 PM
To: PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Personally, I think focusing on a character savings is the wrong
reason to take on any problem. I don't care how long it takes for me
to type code. I don't care how much extra hdd space it takes. But
what I do care about is how readable it is.
To me, the array shortcut syntax is pointless. Do you really mean to
tell me that `[1, 2]` is more readable/easier to understand than
`array(1,2)`? To me, it's about a wash.
However, the object shortcut syntax is a major win. For example:
$person = new stdClass();
$person-city = 'ogden';
$person-state = 'ut';
$perspn-country = 'usa';
$person-favoriteNumbers = array(4, 12, 37, 42);
$person-somethingWithNumbers();
$person-unluckyNumbers = array(6, 13, 21);
$person-likesPhp = 'very much so';
vs
$person = { 'name' = 'Justin',
'city' = 'ogden',
'state' = 'ut',
'country' = 'usa',
'favoriteNumbers' = [ 4, 12, 37, 42],
'unluckyNumbers' = [ 6, 13, 21],
'likesPhp' = 'very much so'
}
Did you notice what happened there? There's two differences. Try to
find them. Neither would be possible with the shortcut syntax.
Now, the only reason I would personally support the array shortcut is
if it was an implementation of JSON. I know that's not on the table
here, but that's the only benefit I can see to implementing a shortcut
for arrays (that would save 5 characters per instance).
Just my $0.02...
Anthony
On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:02 PM, Justin Carmony
jus...@justincarmony.com wrote:
To address the soapbox:
Its not just to reduce the five characters at the beginning, but when
you have more complex structures as well. There was already a great
example shown
(http://paste.roguecoders.com/p/0747f2363c228a09e0ddd6f8ec52f2e8.html)
of that. Also, if object support is added (which we need to add to the
RFC
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I don't think anyone cares about JSON for the sake of being perfect
JSON, I didn't intend to give that impression.
Then you should stop saying pure JSON and true JSON constantly!
I'm only hoping for something that generally works on par with all
the other JSON parsers in the world.
OK, that trashes your example, where values were set based on the
result of a PHP function. There is no par for JSON parsers running
methods _at creation time_, within the server (author) context.
Setting vars to the return value of a function is something we take
for granted in real languages, but it cannot happen within what a
knowledgeable person would call JSON.
Yes, JSON is a very specific encoding, but when a developer writes
something jsony, what they mean is an object/array with the
following structure/values, because that is what the encoding
really represents.
Not Javascript developers. Maybe jQiddies think that
{'$gt': strtotime('-1 day')}
is JSONy more than it is JS objecty?
This is like starting from Wouldn't inline CSVs be great for creating
arrays? and drifting to I mean, not like with that comma-escaping
stuff, and, uh, newlines would be allowed in the middle of a record,
and you'd have to allow create-time interpolation of function calls.
You know, CSVy!
Only thing I might generously refer to as being JSONy, while
provably not being valid JSON, is a string that conforms in every way
_except_ for using single quotes -- everywhere that doubles are
required -- instead of using doubles. Anything else is someone's
mangled JankySON or just not JSON.
-- S.
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[PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I'm one of the people who've brought it up on Twitter. Today's discussion seems
to have earned some traction, which is a step in the right direction, I believe.
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about
it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki
page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and
would like to be counted, that would be great too.
At risk of turning this into a longer-than-necessary discussion, I believe a
new RFC is required at this point. Making [ and ] work as (T_ARRAY, '(') and
(')'), respectively is no longer good enough, for the main reason you've
pointed out: JSON is becoming ubiquitous; actual first-class JSON would be very
valuable to me.
I would be happy to find some time to participate in RFC reform for this
subject.
That said:
PHP SVN account holder voters
=
Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav
Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic
+1 (sean)
S
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
+1
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Sean Coates s...@seancoates.com wrote:
I'm one of the people who've brought it up on Twitter. Today's discussion
seems to have earned some traction, which is a step in the right direction, I
believe.
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about
it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki
page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below
and would like to be counted, that would be great too.
At risk of turning this into a longer-than-necessary discussion, I believe a
new RFC is required at this point. Making [ and ] work as (T_ARRAY, '(') and
(')'), respectively is no longer good enough, for the main reason you've
pointed out: JSON is becoming ubiquitous; actual first-class JSON would be
very valuable to me.
I would be happy to find some time to participate in RFC reform for this
subject.
That said:
PHP SVN account holder voters
=
Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav
Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic
+1 (sean)
S
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
A few notes worth mentioning:
- That RFC moved from fail to 'under discussion' a few weeks ago, although it
hasn't been edited
- Most people are now for it, or at least that's the general feeling on IRC
(#php.pecl) these past few weeks
- Discussing it is on the 5.4 TODO ( https://wiki.php.net/todo/php54 )
And since I voted against it last time around, here's my take (quoting myself
here from the recent 5.4 thread):
I'm changing my old vote, so -1 to +1. Changes and additions to syntax may (or
may not) slow adoption, but since other such changes are being made then let's
do it. And while explicit code (e.g., array()) is nice, many people are
familiar with array shortcuts.
I think the main question is if related features (e.g., inline array slicing)
should also be implemented. Once upon a time the $arr{} syntax almost did that.
Regards,
Philip
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
This is my first time posting to the mailing list, been lurking for a little while, but I would like to throw in my thoughts. I've written about the idea of PHP supporting JSON notation on my blog before (http://www.justincarmony.com/blog/2011/04/12/php-itch-to-scratch-object-notation/), and I think it would be beneficial because: - Frameworks and Libraries are becoming more verbose as they support more modular designs. The more PHP as a language can do to help developers make their frameworks less verbose (like supporting JSON like notations), the happier developers will be. - Most developers are familiar with JSON, so the learning curve for this notation would be low. - While short hand for arrays would be nice, some developers are moving to use objects more over arrays, so a shorthand that supports both arrays and objects would be great. But the bottom line is I would love to help put together whatever is required for a new RFC, and do anything to help others who don't see the use for the short notation. Justin Carmony On May 31, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Brian Moon wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: This patch will not be accepted because slight majority of the core developers voted against. Though if you take a accumulated mean between core developers and userland votes seems to show the opposite it would be irresponsible to submit a patch witch is not supported or maintained in the long run. So, the PHP users want it, but too many PHP core devs did not want it or did not see the use of it. From rereading the mailing list archive, most had the tone of I don't see a reason for it. I was in that camp in 2003 when it first came up. However, with the emergence of JSON and systems that use JSON as an interface, this type of syntax would be most welcome in the day to day life of a PHP developer. I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. PHP SVN account holder voters = Pro: Andrei Zmievski, Andi Gutmans, Pierre Joye, Rasmus Lerdorf, Stanislav Malyshev, Brian Moon, Kalle Sommer Nielsen, Edin Kadribasic Contra: Antony Dovgal, Derick Rethans, Jani Taskinen, Lokrain, Felipe Pena, Lukas Kahwe Smith, Marcus Boerger, David Soria Parra, Johannes Schlüter, Maciek Sokolewicz, Philip Olson, Ilia Alshanetsky, Daniel Brown, Jochem Maas, Hannes Magnusson, David Coallier Other voters Pro: Sebastian Deutsch, Ryusuke Sekiyama, Stefan Marr, Alexey Zakhlestin, Carl P. Corliss, Darius Jahandarie, Giedrius D, Eric Coleman, Max Antonov, Mike Ford, Larry Garfield, Sam Barrow, Taylor Luk, Hans Ahlin, Karoly Negyesi, Guilherme Blanco, Jonathan-Bond Caron Contra: Geoffrey Sneddon, Tomi Kaistila, David Zühlke -- Brian. http://brian.moonspot.net -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. i'm a +1, was not present during first vote. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hi!
At risk of turning this into a longer-than-necessary discussion, I
believe a new RFC is required at this point. Making [ and ] work as
(T_ARRAY, '(') and (')'), respectively is no longer good enough, for
the main reason you've pointed out: JSON is becoming ubiquitous;
actual first-class JSON would be very valuable to me.
It looks appealing, though if you think about security implications, I'm
not sure it'd be actually as useful as one might think - i.e., you'd
rarely want to eval() a JSON string, and absent that native JSON may not
help you much.
That aside, I think [] as array syntax is long overdue and would improve
PHP readability and compatibility with other dynamic languages.
--
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
On 05/31/2011 08:52 PM, Sean Coates wrote:
I'm one of the people who've brought it up on Twitter. Today's discussion seems
to have earned some traction, which is a step in the right direction, I believe.
I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it.
Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page)
below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would
like to be counted, that would be great too.
At risk of turning this into a longer-than-necessary discussion, I believe a
new RFC is required at this point. Making [ and ] work as (T_ARRAY, '(') and
(')'), respectively is no longer good enough, for the main reason you've
pointed out: JSON is becoming ubiquitous; actual first-class JSON would be very
valuable to me.
I would be happy to find some time to participate in RFC reform for this
subject.
That said:
+1
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
This is (as far as I remember) my first mail on this list and I don't really know, how the voting process works. I guess its free4all, so ... Am 31.05.2011 20:42, schrieb Brian Moon: I would prefer (as Rasmus pointed out) not to start a long discussion about it. Primarily I would be curious if anyone on the lists (from the RFC wiki page) below would like to change your vote or if you are not listed below and would like to be counted, that would be great too. +1 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] RFC: Short syntax for Arrays (redux)
Hello, On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Brian Moon br...@moonspot.net wrote: https://wiki.php.net/rfc/shortsyntaxforarrays Since this was brought again recently by Rasmus (http://markmail.org/message/fx3brcm4ekh645se) and on Twitter where several people including Andi chimed in on it and Ilia seemed to reverse his thoughts as well (with caveats), I thought I would start a real thread about it. The reason the RFC stalled was stated as: I am very much +1 for this. I would also like to note the sooner we get it in the sooner it can actually be adopted as most hosting providers are a couple years behind of latest release, so I hope we can build some momentum this time around and get a solid feature that the user base wants. In addition I think the Square bracket array shortcut - keys and values are separated by colons: is the way to go. Thanks, -Chris -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
