[jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] Since Chad Mentioned Guice
(Or did he?) My article on Google's Guice, the latest, greatest* DI framework: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-guice.html (* your view may vary.) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution
Re: [jug-discussion] Since Chad Mentioned Guice
There was a talk by Jamis Buck (a big java DI guy) at RubyConf where he claimed DI was unnecessary in Ruby or other dynamic languages. That's me heckling him at the end. Essence of my comments: I agree that DI *frameworks* are unnecessary, but I still think the Registry pattern is a good way to architect any application. It drives loose coupling and high cohesion - which is a good thing, especially for developers who don't know what those are or why they are good. I think many Rubyists overuse mixins and underuse basic OO, which leads to more complex and more confusing code in general, and more monkeypatching and brittleness than necessary. A bunch of small dead simple objects is easier to understand, debug, extend, and fix. -- Chad On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:32 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Or did he?) My article on Google's Guice, the latest, greatest* DI framework: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-guice.html (* your view may vary.) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver? :-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 03:36 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
well. not from the get-go. one eye with a set of rods and cones, little photopigments on outer membranes reacting to light, isomerizing, creating a graded potential, sending the signal to the ganglia and down the optic nerve to the brain. fun, huh? Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 04:01 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) I'm guessing you'll have performance requirements - that'll require taking advantage of multi-cores, or parallelization? If so, try that Google search again. On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver? :-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 03:36 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Darkside? You know Haskell? On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ah well... not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside. ;-) Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:55 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) Ah ha! Victory is mine! She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. ;) -Todd Happy Holidays! *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a WildDevil? Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) heheh and my language of choice... java. Thanks all. It'll be good to put your faces to your names at the party. Respectfully, Liz, Data Base Administrator, Methods Engineering Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/09/2008 02:11 PM Please respond to jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org cc Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app. As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby. However, this is the JUG list, and the question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here before ;) Depending on the target deployment environment (windows? lots of users? Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks). -- Chad PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice... On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu. Nick On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.
Re: [jug-discussion] Since Chad Mentioned Guice
This is funny. I recently wrote this: http://java.dzone.com/articles/dependency-injection-an-introd I read your article (after promising myself that I would only skim it). Seems cool though... I like the hero references... I cover the @Autowire and the @Required and the @Attribute in my article. I like the section from your article that shows this: binder.bind(Vehicle.class).annotatedWith(Fast.class).to(WeaselCopter.class); Spring has a way to define your own custom annotations, but I left it for a future article (or perhaps never :). The concept of the Provider is interesting. What would be a good use case for it? BTW Thanks for sharing this. On 12/9/08 1:32 PM, Nick Lesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (Or did he?) My article on Google's Guice, the latest, greatest* DI framework: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-guice.html (* your view may vary.) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)
RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw numbers) than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way of your Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby does not seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough. BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl= I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why they did not back Jruby in a similar manner. H On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/ Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and compatibility is good and getting better all the time. Ok, troll time: My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed to make people happy. Most Rubyists - especially those with experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you really compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke through. The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both worlds? Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. -- Chad On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. deploy/run/test not a problem mvn jetty:run Ok... I will bite, but just this once. When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby. For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a book that no one read). When you say Java is Dead it sounds a lot like Ruby has won. In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps. On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already be built on Spring). Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would be all over it. Your point is moot. Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what your point is. The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a much better track record (although much smaller one). FWIW, Groovy was originally invented by James Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point. Grails is tied to Groovy. The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - but, it is a relative notion. Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value - developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. Prompt mvn jetty:run Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of people) Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll be burdened with pure Java once again. This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and did not need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point. If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead. Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no way dead. It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do. Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight champion of the world. Open sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for ensuring its longevity. Only said with a slight grin. On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw numbers) than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way of your Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby does not seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough. BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl= http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl= I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why they did not back
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ha. Sucka. I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a few assertions for a stance. I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are cool. The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even a debate. Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense to the Java is dead stick as well as your feeble attempt to start dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a webapp. But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Though, giving in a second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of technology. Please don't bite again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. deploy/run/test not a problem mvn jetty:run Ok... I will bite, but just this once. When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby. For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a book that no one read). When you say Java is Dead it sounds a lot like Ruby has won. In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps. On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already be built on Spring). Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would be all over it. Your point is moot. Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what your point is. The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a much better track record (although much smaller one). FWIW, Groovy was originally invented by James Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point. Grails is tied to Groovy. The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - but, it is a relative notion. Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value - developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. Prompt mvn jetty:run Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of people) Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll be burdened with pure Java once again. This makes no sense. Why? I have written
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. Anyway, Rick, a few points: 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed writing Java. But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really cool, REALLY smart people. I worked with some really cool smart people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of them. Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard java developers, in my experience. In Ruby it seems to be the opposite. I'm a biased troll, though... 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't back this up...). This is the nature of the adoption curve. 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems. Ruby has tons of sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released, supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption. When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in any proven, performant, scalable Java library. As I said, language preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a compelling advantage of JRuby? Remember, I love you all. I just love to troll too :) -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
