[LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert

[Matthew Daillie]

That was in prints of vihuela music, notably Milan (which is why Minkoff’s B 
facsimile of his music was flawed, unlike the more recent colour facsimile 
published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela).
Best,
Matthew

> On Aug 24, 2020, at 00:12, Arthur Ness  
> wrote:
> 
> Someone (Petrucci??? or Spanish?) published tablatures with single line
>   in red.  That was for the voice to sing to the lute.  Both reading from
>   the tablature!




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[LUTE] Re: String wear at nut on G lute

[Matthew Daillie]

The only thing you can do with that string is cut the frayed end off and use it 
for a shorter  lute if you have one (and if the gauge is suitable). Is it 
recent (it certainly doesn’t look it!).
Best,
Matthew

> On Aug 20, 2020, at 15:23, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
>   Thanks Sean and Luke. I did polish a little. I’ll have to put on two
>   pairs of eyeglasses and give it another go. But what about the string?
>   Anything I can do to save that 5th course string that looks like it may
>   break?
> 
>   On Aug 19, 2020, at 4:38 AM, Sean Smith <[1]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   For polishing compound you can use toothpaste on cotton kitchen string.
>   Make sure the string is at least as thick as the groove so it polishes
>   the sides, too.
>   s
> 
>   On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:57 AM Luke Emmet
>   <[2]luke.em...@orlando-lutes.com> wrote:
> 
>Hi Ed
>It looks like the groove for the string isn't wide enough, and
> has a
>sharp top edge which is cutting into the string.
>Ideally the nut grooves should be wider than the string diameter,
> so it
>touches only at the bottom and the grooves only guide the string
> and do
>not offer any friction along the string length.
>So if possible you could try to gently widen the nut grooves with
> a
>fine round diamond file, then polish with a thread of twine
> dipped in
>polish compound. Or if you have a friendly lute maker, he or she
> can
>easily sort it out.
>Hope this helps
> - Luke
>On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 18:27, Ed Durbrow
> <[1][3]edurb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I broke a 5th course string on my 7 course lute and now it
> looks
>  like
> the other one is about to break. Has anyone seen similar
> wear
>  patterns?
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to save the
> second
>  string
> that looks like it could break at any moment?
> I made a video with two pictures. The first picture is from
> the
>  front,
> the second picture is from the pegbox side and has the
>  replacement
> string in place.
> Thank you in advance.
> Here is the video with the two
> pictures: [1][2][4]https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [2][3][5]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> [3][4][6]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> [4][5][7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> --
>  References
> 1. [6][8]https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
> 2. [7][9]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> 3. [8][10]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> 4. [9][11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>  To get on or off this list see list information at
>  [10][12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>--
> References
>1. mailto:[13]edurb...@gmail.com
>2. [14]https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>3. [15]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>4. [16]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>5. [17]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>6. [18]https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>7. [19]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>8. [20]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>9. [21]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>   10. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   Ed Durbrow
>   Saitama, Japan
>   [23]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>   [24]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>   [25]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:lutesm...@gmail.com
>   2. mailto:luke.em...@orlando-lutes.com
>   3. mailto:edurb...@gmail.com
>   4. https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>   5. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>   6. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>   7. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>   8. https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>   9. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>  10. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>  11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  13. mailto:edurb...@gmail.com
>  14. https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>  15. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>  16. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>  17. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>  18. https://youtu.be/pPr6bilW26A
>  19. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>  20. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>  21. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>  22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  23. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>  24. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>  25. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 

[LUTE] Re: Siena lute book

[Matthew Daillie]

The numbering system Heringman uses is Minkoff’s, quite simply an incremental 
numerical list of the pieces in the order in which they appear in the 
manuscript.
I’ll send you scans of the Minkoff index off-list.
Best,
Matthew


> On Jun 7, 2020, at 02:26, Leonard Williams  
> wrote:
> 
>   I'm looking for an index or catalog of the contents of the Siena
>   Lute Book, but can't seem to find anything.  I would like to correlate
>   the pieces on Heringman's album with tablatures, but he doesn't list
>   folios in his playlist.
>   Also--what is the significance of the Minkoff numbering system
>   (which Jacob does indicate)?
>   Thanks and regards,
>   Leonard Williams
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Anthony Bailes, Lute Music of the Netherlands

[Matthew Daillie]

   It's available here for under 2000€. Quite a bargain I would say.

   Best,

   Matthew

   [1]https://www.amazon.fr/Lute-Music-Netherlands-2012-04-05/dp/B01AXLEGO
   6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=bailes+netherlands=1587279106=8-1

   On Apr 19, 2020, at 00:01, Edward Martin <[2]edvihuel...@gmail.com>
   wrote:

 Dear ones,
 I am interested in getting this recording on the Carpe  Diem label,
   but
 it is now out of print, and everywhere I tried it is no longer
 available.
 I want the CD, not interested in digital download.   Anyone out there
 willing to sell me their copy?
 Thanks, and wishing wellness to all in these troubled times.
 ed
 --
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.amazon.fr/Lute-Music-Netherlands-2012-04-05/dp/B01AXLEGO6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=bailes+netherlands=1587279106=8-1
   2. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: A Pavan

[Matthew Daillie]

Tomkins composed this piece for keyboard and in the manuscript where it appears 
he has written the date February 14 1649. Some commentators think that it could 
well have been to mark the anniversary of the execution of Charles I (the 
discrepancy in dates being due to changes in calendars and Old Style and New 
Style dates).

There is a very beautiful rendition by Carole Cerasi playing on a muselaar 
virginal on her 2001 CD released by Metronome. I don't know whether there has 
ever been a transcription for lute ensemble though.

Best,

Matthew


On 31 mars 2020, at 02:29, Tristan von Neumann  wrote:

> ..for these distracted times.
> 
> (Thomas Tomkins)
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z2BEKuWANA
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Who was Richard Green/Grene

[Matthew Daillie]

Matthew Spring in 'The Lute in Britain' says that he was one of the Willoughby 
family musicians. He further states that Grene, "an old and trusted servant of 
Willoughby, owned a lute book himself from which Sir Francs gained his version" 
of 'a pauyn Bruzter out o greenness Booke pag 7' and that "Green himself wrote 
in pieces nos. 9, 25 and 26". Furthermore, the Grene referred to as a composer 
of music at the end of the Marsh manuscript might be one and the same.

Best,

Matthew

On 12 févr. 2020, at 04:13, Tristan von Neumann  
wrote:

> In Willoughby Lute book, there's mentioned that Brewster's Pavan was
> copied from Green's lute book.
> 
> Alexander/Spencer's index mentions that he was an "old and trusty
> servant" of Willoughby.
> 
> It is interesting that he appears also in Wurstisen's collection (Almain
> -> "Man ladt uns für die Hochzeit") and in Marsh Lute Book.
> 
> 
> Has anyone additional info about this guy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Help me please!!!

[Matthew Daillie]

The T sign under a chord indicates that one should play the lowest notes with 
the thumb. The upside down v sign before a note indicates an appoggiatura from 
below; the upside down v sign after a note indicates a 'pincé' or mordent, as 
does a v sign after or before a note .

Best,

Matthew


On 24 janv. 2020, at 14:27, Nicolau Espinosa  wrote:

>   Dear Edward,
>   I refer specifically to a kind of letter "t" that appears under a
>   vertical chord of Am A (5) -E (4) -C · (3), and also to a kind of
>   accent sign that sometimes indicates above and times down ...
>   The piece is a Chaconne, La Montespan.
>   Thanks for your kindness.
> 
>   Missatge de Edward Martin <[1]edvihuel...@gmail.com> del dia dv., 24 de




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[LUTE] Re: looking for Simanca manuscript (vihuela)

[Matthew Daillie]

OK I’ll send a photo of the piece to you (all 16 bars of it!).
Ramillete de Flores contains considerably more music, including a much longer 
Diferencias sobre la Pavanilla.

> On Jan 17, 2020, at 22:21, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Hmmm ok, thanks!
> 
> 
> The interesting piece I want to look at is the Pavanilla, because ->
> Pavaniglia -> Spanish Pavan.
> 
> 
> How about this one then?
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/3128025?seq=1
>> 




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[LUTE] Re: looking for Simanca manuscript (vihuela)

[Matthew Daillie]

There isn’t much in it as all that is left is a fragment of the manuscript and 
an additional loose leaf. These are included in a modern edition entitled Canto 
Llano published by Stephan Olbertz (Lute & Guitar Editions) as well as in 
Separata Musical No 1 published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela.
Best
Matthew

> On Jan 17, 2020, at 18:59, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have a scan of this vihuela manuscript?
> 
> I'd love to have a look at it.
> 
> 
> :)
> T*
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Unison C string on 8c lutes

[Matthew Daillie]

You could try Aquila CD strings or (as you were considering) Savarez PVF.

Best,

Matthew


On 23 nov. 2019, at 13:17, Jurgen Frenz  
wrote:

>   Hello there,
> 
>   I have an 8c lute now since 10 months and from the beginning I'm
>   "unhappy" with the sound of the unison C strings on it. I changed the
>   plain Aquila strings to round-wound Aquilas but to me it sounds quite
>   the same. What I'm missing is the high frequencies that we have on 6c
>   instruments with the octave string. In my mind I call the current sound
>   "plastic-y". The maker of the instrument suggested to try out the
>   Savarez early music strings but I do not think I would recover high
>   frequencies with them.
> 
>   Any remedies that you have tried out with success other than "just get
>   used to it"? An octave string shouldn't be a good idea because it would
>   confuse voices.
> 
>   Hoping for some suggestions,
>   Jurgen
> 
>   --
>   "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there."
> 
>   JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Borrono-Francesco facsimile

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Robert,

There is this poor quality scan on IMSLP:

http://ks4.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usimg/8/81/IMSLP263476-PMLP427136-milano_intabolatura_de_lauto_2.pdf

Best,

Matthew


Le 17 oct. 2019 à 22:42, Robert Barto  a écrit :

>   Hi all,
> 
>   Can anyone point me to a facsimile copy of � Brown 1546 (8)?
> 
>   Thanks,
> 
>   Robert
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Hender Robarts Book

[Matthew Daillie]

Dear Ed,

I suspect that Claude Chauvel and François-Pierre Goy would be among the most 
well-informed experts to contact for further information. I shall try to get 
the contact details for the former and send them to you off list (I doubt that 
he is online).

In the meantime, there is an article by Wallace Rave in Victor Coelho's 
'Performance on Lute, Guitar and Vihuela' which has a section on performance 
instructions in the Robarts Lute Book, if that is of any interest.

Best,

Matthew


Le 23 août 2019 à 02:59, Edward Martin  a écrit :

>   Dear Ones,
>   I have owned the Boethius edition of The Robarts Lute Book, and I am
>   interested in it, as the music contained seems to be of very high
>   quality, and the majority of the pieces are by Vieux Gaultier.   All
>   the music is for 11-course French baroque lute.
>   I am wondering if there have been any papers written about this book.
>   In the front of the book it states that this MS was discovered in a
>   drawer at Lanhydrock House, the Robarts family home in Cornwall.   It
>   had been in the possession of that locale since it had been written out
>   for Hender Bobarts (1635-1685).   Apparently, he traveled to France in
>   1654 with his brothers and had lute lessons with a certain "Bourgaise"
>   on this or subsequent visits.   Apparently there are further details by
>   Robert Spencer, A Lute Misic Discovery at Lanhydrock, The National
>   Trust Year Book 1975-6, pp.88-90.   I have not been able to find this
>   paper.
>   Written in French, in the prelim., The lute teacher of Hender robarts
>   signs himself as Bourgaise, presumably a French spelling of the Italian
>   Bourghese.   Apparently in the Rene Milleran Lute Book, Mr. Bourghsaisi
>   is listed among "principaux maitres" for lute at the time, so he was
>   perhaps highly regarded.
>   I am wondering, is there any additional research available about
>   Robarts and Bourgaise, or Bourgsaisi?
>   Thanks in advance.
>   Edward Martin
>   .
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Belle, qui tiens ma vie

[Matthew Daillie]

Don't know whether this helps but there is a short coranta for Pandora based on 
'Belle qui tiens ma vie ' in Thomas Morley's First book of consort lessons 
published in 1599. You would need to adapt to the tuning of the lute or adopt 
scordatura.

Best,

Matthew


Le 10 août 2019 à 12:21, Jörg Hilbert  a écrit :

> Dear all,
>   does anybody know any lute version of »Belle qui tiens ma vie « (Thinot
>   Arbeau)?
>   Thanks
>   Jörg


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[LUTE] Re: Requests for new projects

[Matthew Daillie]

Dear Sarge,

This is the perfect opportunity to thank you for all the incredible work you 
do. I can't tell you how many lute players here in France use your scores and 
the facsimiles you put on line. Over the years I have recommended your site to 
umpteen budding lutenists and other musicians (notably singers) who were 
wondering how to get hold of lute repertory.

One thing which I would like to suggest (and should be very easy to put into 
place) is, when you produce tablature with fingerings, could you also provide a 
file without (I understand that they can be of help to players learning the 
instrument and have no tuition but fingerings are very personal and for 
teaching purposes, it is good to be able to work from a score with no 
annotations)?

Keep up the good work!

Best,

Matthew


Le 7 août 2019 à 23:16, "Frank A. Gerbode, M.D."  a écrit :

>   Hello, everybody!
>   Some random questions for you:
>   I am continually looking for suggestions for stuff to add to my
>   [1]website, so:
>1. Has anyone got fronimo files squirreled away that are not already
>   on my site that could be posted there?
>2. I would like to ask if anyone has a burning need for something to
>   be posted there that I could take on as a project. I want to
>   solicit suggestions and then I could go with what is most needed.
> 
>   I have tended to prioritize German, then Italian tab sources, as many
>   people do not read these easily.
>   As I have moved away from performing and into editing, I have several
>   lutes I would like to sell, mainly by van der Waals and Holst, but also
>   an archlute by Dan Larson, a ren lute by Ian Harwood, and a couple of
>   descant lutes.  Not sure about the best approach, here.
>   Occasional questions come up about arcane notations, particularly in
>   German tab, so I may be asking questions about that as well.
>   Thanks!
>   --Sarge
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://gerbode.net/
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[Matthew Daillie]

Your accents got mangled Mathias (at least on my email programs).
'Style luthé' is generally used by harpsichord players to describe the arpeggio 
style used by many French baroque keyboard compositions and the term 'séparé' 
refers to the indications to play chords with different rhythms (as described 
by Perrine) found in the works of 17th century French lutenists. So not quite 
what I was looking for to describe the broken chords in Ballard, but thanks.
Best,
Matthew



> On Aug 3, 2019, at 19:30, Mathias Rösel  wrote:
> 
>   Matthew, you're talking to Ron, I know. May I weigh in, nevertheless.
>   Two terms spring to mind, viz. style luthé and séparé.
>   Mathias
> __
> 
>   Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App
>   --- Original-Nachricht ---
>   Von: Matthew Daillie
>   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
>   Datum: 03.08.2019, 15:39 Uhr
>   An: Lute List
> 
>   Well, yes of course it is. I'm living in the 21st century, using the
>   Internet as a means of communication and French is my everyday
>   language, so I employed a term which was common to me and used inverted
>   commas to show that I was borrowing it from another language.
>   Pray, dire sire, what hallowed English expression would you prefer me
>   to use?
>   Best,
>   Matthew
>   Le 3 août 2019 à 13:47, Ron Andrico <[2]praelu...@hotmail.com> a
>   écrit :
>> <'accords brisés'>?
>> 
>> Is this yet another contrived modern term that a modern person is
>> imposing on an antique musical device?
>> 
>> "The term most frequently used by modern writers to describe the
>> musical style of the seventeenth-century French lutenists is the
>   style
>> brise ("broken style"). Although the word brise was used in the
>> seventeenth century to distinguish a type of ornament,' the term
>   style
>> brise was apparently coined in the twentieth century. After an
>> exhaustive search through dictionaries, lexicons, theoretical
>> treatises, practical sources, and contemporary accounts, I am unable
>   to
>> find a single example of the term style brise used in any previous
>> century." - David Buch, The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 71, No. 1 (1985),
>> p. 52.
>> 
>> RA
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_android_sendmail_footer
>   2. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[Matthew Daillie]

Well, yes of course it is. I'm living in the 21st century, using the Internet 
as a means of communication and French is my everyday language, so I employed a 
term which was common to me and used inverted commas to show that I was 
borrowing it from another language.

Pray, dire sire, what hallowed English expression would you prefer me to use?

Best,

Matthew


Le 3 août 2019 à 13:47, Ron Andrico  a écrit :

>  <'accords brisés'>?
> 
>  Is this yet another contrived modern term that a modern person is
>  imposing on an antique musical device?
> 
>  "The term most frequently used by modern writers to describe the
>  musical style of the seventeenth-century French lutenists is the style
>  brise ("broken style"). Although the word brise was used in the
>  seventeenth century to distinguish a type of ornament,' the term style
>  brise was apparently coined in the twentieth century. After an
>  exhaustive search through dictionaries, lexicons, theoretical
>  treatises, practical sources, and contemporary accounts, I am unable to
>  find a single example of the term style brise used in any previous
>  century."  - David Buch, The Musical Quarterly, Vol. 71, No. 1 (1985),
>  p. 52.
> 
>  RA
> 
>  --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Right hand- thumb out and the pinky resting on the sound board

[Matthew Daillie]

I suspect that this very issue explains why there are so many depictions of 
lutenists playing late renaissance and baroque lutes with the little-finger the 
other side of the bridge where there are no strings to hamper it. If one 
changes the angle of the hand in relation to the courses of the lute, with the 
thumb out and the other fingers more perpendicular to the strings, it is 
inevitable that the little finger catches on the chanterelle as one plays on 
the lower courses. With thumb-under technique, the fingers are more parallel to 
the strings and the little finger keeps a safe distance from the top string 
(and some players develop a scissor motion between the pinky and the other 
fingers so that the former remains on a more or less fixed position on the top).

Jurgen, what music and what type of lute are you playing? What are the 
right-hand bridge spacings? Can you put a photo or video of the offending pinky 
online (or send privately if you are not seeking international celebrity)?

Best,

Matthew


Le 3 août 2019 à 07:52, Jurgen Frenz  a 
écrit :

>  Hi there,
> 
>   in addition to the ongoing very interesting discussion on RH technique
>   I have a practical problem / question.
> 
>   When playing thumb-out and alternate m-i stroke I find it next to
>   impossible reach with the fingers downwards beyond the a string without
>   touching with the inner skin of the mentioned pinky the high g string.
>   Is there something I can do to improve? I find it quite frustrating to
>   stumble always over this limitation of mine.
> 
>   Raising the wrist more distant to the sound board seems to be logical
>   but to me that results in a right hand that is light years away from
>   "relaxed".
> 
>   Thanks for reading, best regards
> 
>   Jurgen


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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[Matthew Daillie]

Yes, that's why I drink as much booze as I possibly can to have at least that 
aspect of my playing historically correct.
Best,
Matthew



> On Aug 2, 2019, at 17:04, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> BTW, your selection of pictures proves conclusively that all early 
> 17th-century lutenists had red noses.



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[LUTE] Re: RH folk style

[Matthew Daillie]

There are passages in pieces by Vallet where he indicates a thumb-index 
alternation in diminutions on the 4th to 6th courses of the lute but this does 
not mean that he was using thumb-in (since he seems to specifically to deride 
the use of this in his introduction). There are no indications for the use of 
the middle finger in Ballard's two books of lute tablature. His style is much 
more based on 'accords brisés' so the question of what right-hand fingerings to 
use for diminutions is less prevalent.

With the difficulty for many lutenists today of playing music and instruments 
spanning three centuries or more it seems inevitable that one will not be able 
to develop very different specific techniques for each period. With this in 
mind, maybe we should be clearer about exactly what we mean when distinguishing 
between thumb-in and thumb-out. For the former are we mainly referring to early 
renaissance technique carrying on from the use of the plectrum and with many 
passages of diminutions using alternating thumb and index in all registers of 
the lute or are we being more categorical and demanding that for later music 
not only one replaces the alternation of thumb-index with index-middle finger 
but that the actual position of the thumb be extended out when playing, which 
necessitates changing the angle of the hand in relation to the strings even to 
the extent of placing the little finger behind the bridge (and which demands a 
complete rethink of tonal issues)?

Many period depictions of lutenists playing 10-course instruments show an 
almost exaggerated thumb-out right-hand position. This is far more extreme than 
the nicely relaxed and natural position of Mouton's right-hand on his 11-course 
lute in the famous painting and engraving thereof. (Links below.)

Surely the proof of the pudding is in the eating. To my mind the musical result 
is paramount. I get no pleasure from listening to a rendition of a work by a 
specific composer that uses politically correct technique but falls short 
musically.

Best,

Matthew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lute_Player_(Hals)#/media/File:Hendrick_ter_Brugghen_-_Lute_Player_-_WGA22182.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2c/92/b0/2c92b0c44c25b848cc3d7ff99252d58a.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Mouton#/media/File:Charles_Mouton_-_Fran%C3%A7ois_de_Troy.jpg
http://www.tabulatura.com/moutonreduc.jpg




Le 2 août 2019 à 03:26, Tristan von Neumann  a écrit :

> I understand, Ron. It's just that other sources use two points for
> middle finger if it's meant to be, but of course, there was probably no
> standard for that.
> 
> From playing Ballard's music, a thumb-in technique feels much more
> natural for the passages in question - while other music, for example
> some Laurencini pieces feel better using index-middle strokes.
> 
> I found myself to be automatically drawn to a certain playing style with
> certain music.
> 
> Sometimes it doesn't seem historical. But I can't help playing many
> Borrono dances with the later technique, it just feels better.
> 
> 
> 
> On 02.08.19 02:51, Ron Andrico wrote:
>>Tristan, while Vallet was very specific about right-hand fingering, I'm
>>fairly certain there are no indications for thumb-index alternation in
>>Ballard's music, and it's a leap to think that articulation marks are
>>specifically tied to right-hand fingering.  Yes, there are right-hand
>>dots but I remain unconvinced that these single dots are specific to
>>use of the right-hand index finger.  The dots could just as well simply
>>indicate weak beats so the reader can keep track for the purpose of
>>articulation, regardless of which digit is used on the strong beat.
>> 
>>RA
>>  __
>> 
>>From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>> on behalf of Tristan von
>>Neumann 
>>Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 9:26 PM
>>To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH folk style
>> 
>>Robert Ballard seems to have used thumb in though, as the points show.
>>And that was after Besard and Dowland.
>>I think the music always suggests thumb-out, if it was supposed to be
>>played that way.
>>If you have passages in the upper part accompanied by deep bass, you
>>automatically use index-middle-finger, because it's easier to play.
>>Some tablatures seem to even suggest both techniques in one piece.
>>The same pieces have different fingerings in different sources
>>sometimes.
>>On 01.08.19 22:03, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>>> Well, I've been a member on the list as well. As it seems to me,
>>all
>>> authors after 1600 who deal with this subject recommend thumb
>>out.
>>> Vallet even ridicules thumb in.
>>> We'll never know what player actually did, if they complied with
>>the
>>> recommendations. Today, research on strings and soundboards
>>points 

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

That is not true Rainer, they simply say that the use of cents is a relatively 
modern one and anachronistic for dealing with Renaissance music. It is 
concomitant with equal temperament (in which a cent = 1/100 of a semitone).

Best,
Matthew


Le 28 juil. 2019 à 10:13, Rainer  a écrit :

> Apparently, they don't have the slightest idea where the concept of cents is 
> coming from.


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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

An interesting and entertaining introduction to temperaments in the Renaissance 
(but which does not broach the subject of fretted instruments):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R75unSXKJXQ=youtu.be

Some of the other episodes are also relevant to questions of temperament.

Best,
Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)

[Matthew Daillie]

Martyn, I understand people's reluctance to spend precious playing time writing 
out all their fret calculations for you. There are umpteen calculators on the 
net for fret placement (all you need to do is type in the string length) and 
all the formulas you might need on David van Ooijen's website (for example).

Asking for a specific player's precise numbers seems pointless to me as the 
result in terms of temperament will depend on the action of the lute, the type 
of strings used, the thickness of frets (to a degree) and the lutenist's 
ability to make subtle changes in intonation with the left hand. A fret chart 
will help to get the basic placement but then one will need to adjust by ear to 
get the essential pure major thirds the piece requires (if one is using 1/4 
comma meantone) along with the colour of chords one wants and and the precise 
tuning of key notes. Tastini may be added and if one is playing a set of 
pieces, one will probably need to occasionally move a fret or two between works 
(one designs the programme to limit these changes).

It might be useful to remember also that the idea of tonality is anachronistic 
when applied to the Renaissance period (when thinking was still very much 
modal) and even if we do impose our modern idea of keys on early pieces, 
composers rarely venture further than keys with no more than three sharps or 
flats.

Best,
Matthew


Le 26 juil. 2019 à 18:49, Martyn Hodgson  
a écrit :

>   Dear Howard,
>   Well - until we have a more quantifiable idea of the objective results
>   of what people actually hear 'by their ears' we're in a land of
>   make-believe where vague unquantifiable assertion carries more
>   weight than any scientific considerations.
>   It's surely not much to ask of those, who have somehow set their frets
>   according to what they perceive as being some particular preferred
>   'meantone', to share the fruits of their work by publishing their
>   measurable fret positions.
>   As it is it is hard to see what is meant by setting a lute entirely in
>   'meantone' since, without multiple movable frets (as, for example,
>   Thompson's experimental guitar) this is simply not physically possible
>   since, as also said before, it fails to properly address the core
>   issue
>   of minor and major semitones on different courses but on the same
>   fret.
>   As also already remarked: who knows, it might even lead to some
>   helpful consensus.
>   MH
> 
>   On Friday, 26 July 2019, 17:11:50 BST, howard posner
>wrote:
>   You might want to reread the part about using your ears.  "Precise fret
>   positions" is an irrelevant concept if you tune by actually listening;
>   that's why your repeated demands for numbers are going unanswered.
>> On Jul 26, 2019, at 6:40 AM, Martyn Hodgson
>   <[1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you Stephan,
>> Would you kindly share what precise fret positions result when you
>   set
>> the
>>   'fifth fret so high that you can still enjoy and work your way
>> through.'
>> MH
>> 
>> On Friday, 26 July 2019, 13:17:31 BST, Stephan Olbertz
>> <[2]stephan.olbe...@web.de> wrote:
>> You wouldn't even need a tuner. Just set a fifth fret so high that
>   you
>> can
>> still enjoy and work your way through all the other frets and open
>> courses
>> by means of comparing octaves and unisons.
>> Use strings that are neither too old nor too new. And be sure to
>   tune
>> to a
>> fourth based tuning.
>> Regards
>> Stephan
>> 
>> Im Auftrag
>> von Roland Hayes
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Juli 2019 13:36
>> An: Martyn Hodgson; [3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Steve Ramey
>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Test 9od temperament)
>>   Or you could get a meantone tuner and use your ears and not a
>> measuring
>>   tape
>>   Get [1]Outlook for Android
>> 
>   __
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
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> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   2. mailto:stephan.olbe...@web.de
>   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

Ross Duffin wrote a very measured and comprehensive chapter entitled 'Tuning 
and Temperament' in 'A Performer's Guide to Renaissance Music' (Indiana 
University Press). He reviews the difficulties of using meantone on fretted 
instruments (and notably lutes) and discusses the various solutions that can be 
envisaged.

For those of you wishing to listen to the expressive qualities of meantone 
temperament in the context of chromatic phrases, I would highly recommend Marco 
Vitale's recording of Sweelinck's Fantasia chromatica played on an original 
Ruckers spinet virginal dated 1604.

Best,
Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

So you don't alter the tuning of the open strings on your lute when changing 
temperaments? No wonder you don't like meantone.

Best,
Matthew


> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:55, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> It's even worse when a guitarist has to tune to a keyboard or an accordion in 
> ensemble because that means open strings have to be altered.



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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

Citterns are keyboard instruments and metal strings introduce alternative 
temperament issues? Gosh, I am learning a lot of alternative facts at the 
moment.
Best,
Matthew



> On Jul 22, 2019, at 21:34, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
>   David, citterns are strung with wire, which introduces alternative
>   temperament issues and places them more in the class of a keyboard
>   instrument.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of David van Ooijen 
>   Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 2:47 PM
>   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
> 
>  Fixed fretted instrument had some sort of MT. Citerns with an
>  approximation 1/6 comma MT come to mind. That's not a modern
>  interpretation or an awkward stretch.
>> 
>>   on.   There survive some historical discussions of lute
>fretting but the
>>   language is unclear or otherwise flawed.   A sideways
>application of
>>   modern interpretations of keyboard temperaments to the lute
>   and
>fretted
>>   viol is a bit of an awkward stretch.
>  --
>  ***
>  David van Ooijen
>  [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
>  ***
>  --
>   References
>  1. [1]mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
>  2. [2]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
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> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   Visible links:
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>   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
>   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

For those of you who are looking for help experimenting with meantone and other 
temperaments, David van Ooijen's webpage is a very good starting point:

https://davidvanooijen.wordpress.com/mean-tone-temperament-for-lute/

Best,
Matthew


Le 21 juil. 2019 à 17:34, David van Ooijen  a écrit :

>   The beauty of MT is that each key has it's own character. I've played
>   l'Orfeo 30 times. 30 Times in MT. I've lost count of the times I've
>   played Monteverdi's Maria Vespers (over one hundred times, anyway) all
>   in MT.
> 
>   David
> 
>   On Sun, 21 Jul 2019 at 17:21, <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> So - I took a quick look: l'Orfeo starts in C and goes through a, d,
> F, g, G, Bb, c and even f.
> A separate theorbo for each key change, I suppose!))
> RT
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

OK, I stand corrected, you know best. Have a nice day.

Matthew


Le 21 juil. 2019 à 11:15, Martyn Hodgson  a 
écrit :

>   Dear Matthew,
>   Thank you for his - though I really do not know why you suggest a
>   'slanging match'!.  My intention is merely to put some historical and
>   practical perspective on the matter rather than simple personal
>   assertion.  To repeat: you are making the common mistake  of discussing
>   theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only  employable on
>   keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments appropriate for
>   fretted instruments such as the lute.
>   Whether or not some modern players might adopt this manner ('meantone')
>   of fretting is not, of course, the point - perhaps they might
>   themselves engage in a degree of wishful thinking.  Certainly, modern
>   fashions come and go as fast as fads, and in other areas of lute
>   performance practice some modern players (even a few professionals who
>   might be expected to know better) still insist on, for example,
>   employing thumb-under for repertoire other than the sixteenth century.
>   In short, such anecdotal reports, even from 'professionals, are not
>   reliable evidence of historic practice.
>   regards
>   MH
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Wishful thinking on lute temparaments was Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

I certainly do not wish to get into a slanging match here, I was merely 
responding to a request for practical help with temperaments. In my opinion, 
the prerequisite for that is to have some understanding of the basics of the 
theory and above all, to get one's ears used to hearing pure intervals, which 
is no more complicated than hearing octaves (some would claim that it is 
actually easier).

It is perfectly feasible to tune a lute to some form of meantone with fairly 
minimal means (I do not favour the use of slanting frets). The proof is that 
many of the top players do it, both for recordings and public performances. 
Once the lute is set up, this merely requires the adjustment of a fret or two 
between certain pieces, so hardly rocket science.

One cannot simply dismiss out of hand the use of meantone on the lute. It can 
be enriching and satisfying for those players who wish to explore the 
possibilities but it is not a sine que non for playing the lute. It is often 
made to appear unnecessarily complicated but the fundamentals (which are are 
frequently overlooked) are perfectly accessible to any lutenist.

I have no bone to pick here (I play the renaissance lute in both meantone and 
equal temperaments and the baroque lute almost exclusively in equal 
temperament), but I do react unfavorably to sweeping statements that have 
little grounding in fact.

Best,

Matthew

 
Le 21 juil. 2019 à 08:07, Martyn Hodgson  a 
écrit :

>   Dear Matthew,
>   Yes - of course this is the case. But you are making the common mistake
>   of discussing theoretical temperaments (mainly, in practice, only
>   employable on keyboard instruments) with practical temperaments
>   appropriate for fretted instruments such as the lute.
>   The problem is, of course, that a single fret across the fingerboard
>   may have to suit for both a major or a minor semitone depending on the
>   open tuning and key.  Such things as slanted frets can sometimes be
>   used on the viol when playing simple single melodic lines, but with
>   chords, as commonly found on the lute, matters are entirely different.
>   The idea of tastini as reported by Galilei (1584) has also beguiled
>   some modern players but in practice they are far from practical for
>   works with any significant degree of fingering complexity and,
>   moreover, Galilei himself makes it clear that it is not a practice he
>   advocates - indeed, he castigates those few who employ it.
>   Incidentally, there's also a real dearth of iconographic evidence to
>   support the practice (or indeed slanted frets) on the lute which is,
>   surely, very telling.
>   In short, all these theoretical meanderings about meantone on the lute
>   is, with the exception of small parts of the repertoire, simply
>   self-delusion and wishful thinking ('I have a better sense of tuning
>   than you'..).
>   As mentioned by others earlier in this thread, early evidence clearly
>   points in the direction of some approximation to equal temperament.
>   MH




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

??

Le 20 juil. 2019 à 18:45, Roman Turovsky  a écrit :

> I'm referring to the minor thirds in MT that that nauseously sound more 
> neutral than minor.
> RT
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

Yes, there are minor thirds in 1/4 comma meantone that are wider than in equal 
temperament and so closer to pure (they beat less)! Minor thirds in equal 
temperament are more than 15 cents narrower than pure.

Maybe you were referring to augmented seconds (in meantone, enharmonic 
accidentals are no longer the same). Obviously one has to choose between, say, 
a D# and an Eb (unless you have a keyboard with split accidentals).

Best,
Matthew

Le 20 juil. 2019 à 16:45, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :

> It is a lot more harrowing to hear the minor 3rds that are too wide, 
> resulting from various masochistic temperaments.
> 
> And the use of the latter in music that contains chromaticism is simply 
> insufferable.
> RT 
> 
> 
> http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> 
>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Matthew Daillie  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert 
>> Dowland in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley 
>> pp. 81-83).
>> 
>> It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used 
>> during the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone 
>> temperament. The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and 
>> minor semitones with far more character than equal temperament, notably for 
>> the many chromatic passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper 
>> understanding of temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and 
>> much can be learned by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 
>> comma meantone was clearly used on early keyboards and it would be pretty 
>> unthinkable today to listen to a performance of 16th century Italian music 
>> or the English virginalists in equal temperament (obviously as we move into 
>> the baroque period, circulating temperaments were adopted that favoured 
>> purer fifths rather than pure major thirds).
>> 
>> When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, 
>> beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to 
>> equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals 
>> beat and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to 
>> adapt meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and 
>> careful adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone 
>> is quite popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no 
>> longer pure, it does impart far more character than equal temperament and 
>> does not require such extreme fret placement (which can be particularly 
>> uncomfortable on the short string length of a lute in a', for example). If 
>> one has access to an early keyboard and the help of an experienced player, 
>> it can be easier to appreciate the fundamentals of various temperaments than 
>> on the lute (metal strings facilitate the detection of beatless intervals).
>> 
>> Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on 
>> the lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical 
>> world.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico  a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a
>>> narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who
>>> understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>>> lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>>> temperament.
>>> 
>>> RA
>>>   __
>>> 
>>> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>>> of Tristan von Neumann 
>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM
>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>> Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments
>>> 
>>> I know this is a wide topic...
>>> Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr.
>>> Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later
>>> 16th century music.
>>> It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then.
>>> Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended.
>>> Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing).
>>> What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility?
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> References
>>> 
>>> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Matthew Daillie]

It has been well-documented that the instructions published by Robert Dowland 
in the Varietie of Lute Lessons are critically flawed (see Lindley pp. 81-83).

It is highly probable that something close to equal temperament was used during 
the renaissance period but so were several variants of meantone temperament. 
The latter favours pure major thirds and creates major and minor semitones with 
far more character than equal temperament, notably for the many chromatic 
passages prevalent in renaissance music. I think a deeper understanding of 
temperaments is a prerequisite for playing early music and much can be learned 
by looking at how other instruments were tuned. 1/4 comma meantone was clearly 
used on early keyboards and it would be pretty unthinkable today to listen to a 
performance of 16th century Italian music or the English virginalists in equal 
temperament (obviously as we move into the baroque period, circulating 
temperaments were adopted that favoured purer fifths rather than pure major 
thirds).

When one gets used to playing a piece in 1/4 comma meantone with its pure, 
beatless major thirds, it can be quite a harrowing experience to go back to 
equal temperament as one is conscious of just how much crucial intervals beat 
and everything appears to be out of tune. It is not necessarily easy to adapt 
meantone successfully to the lute, but it can be done with time and careful 
adjustments of frets and the addition of tastini. 1/5 comma meantone is quite 
popular amongst major lutenists and although the thirds are no longer pure, it 
does impart far more character than equal temperament and does not require such 
extreme fret placement (which can be particularly uncomfortable on the short 
string length of a lute in a', for example). If one has access to an early 
keyboard and the help of an experienced player, it can be easier to appreciate 
the fundamentals of various temperaments than on the lute (metal strings 
facilitate the detection of beatless intervals).

Rather than being a daunting prospect, the use of meantone temperaments on the 
lute can add further enjoyment to one's playing and enrich our musical world.

Best,

Matthew


Le 20 juil. 2019 à 13:22, Ron Andrico  a écrit :

>   Tristan, the various alternative temperaments may sound nice for a
>   narrow repertory with the excepted odd note, but musicians who
>   understand music and who explore the more interesting repertory for
>   lute follow the precepts of Galilei, which approximates equal
>   temperament.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of Tristan von Neumann 
>   Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:04 PM
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>   Subject: [LUTE] Lute Temperaments
> 
>   I know this is a wide topic...
>   Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr.
>   Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later
>   16th century music.
>   It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then.
>   Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended.
>   Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing).
>   What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility?
>   To get on or off this list see list information at
>   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Siena Manuscript No. 17 - Ricercar

[Matthew Daillie]

You seem to have a short memory Tristan. On April 24 of this year you wrote:

'..yes, I'm back...

But I will not talk about India.'

Best,

Matthew



Le 13 juil. 2019 à 08:55, Tristan von Neumann  a 
écrit :

> [News from India - please ignore if it does not interest you]
> 
> 
> A new interesting discovery I made will probably upset some of you.
> 
> I have now evidence that Sikh music can be found in lute sources:
> 
> The Ricercar "no. 17" from the Siena Manuscript is a Raga
> Dhanaseri/Dhanashri piece.
> 
> The same model is also used in "La Spiritata" by Giovanni Gabrieli.
> 
> 
> Both mashups can be heard here:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/siena-manuscript-ricercar-no-17-mode-1-raga-dhanaseri-shaan-prof-surinder-singh
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/tristan-von-neumann/giovanni-gabrieli-la-spiritata-raga-dhanashri-ii-better-mix
> 
> 
> If you are able to synthesize the two layers, you will notice it.
> 
> 
> Why use Sikh models? They were relatively tolerant monotheists -
> probably safe to deal with when you are a Jesuit, music transfer is also
> easy.
> 
> Even today, music is the main expression of Sikh faith.
> 
> There are note syllables for smooth communication, most of the concepts
> are compatible with European understanding of music, but require adjustment.
> 
> The material for this topic requires more pages than I thought (300+).
> 
> I'm on it though. Some encouraging words would be great instead of trolling.
> 
> 
> [Thank you for your attention.]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

I find that sustain is a major factor in the choice of a lute. Obviously we are 
not talking grand piano sustain, but an instrument with good sustain makes all 
the difference, especially for playing polyphonic music.
Clearly appropriate acoustics can make or break a lute, (however good the 
instrument and the player) but in the right environment the sound can also 
carry astonishingly well.

There might actually be a correlation between sustain and the amount of 
dishing. A well respected lutenist, with vast experience of teaching 
internationally, observed that lutes with inordinate dishing (a practice which 
is apparently common in some parts), and so with the strings at a significant 
height above the soundboard, frequently lacked sustain.

Best,
Matthew



> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:51, Ron Andrico  wrote:

> Sustain does not and probably never did factor into the plucked string sound 
> of the lute.  The sound is immediate and rich in overtones, but ephemeral and 
> does not travel well.
>   RA
> __



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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

Oh well, if you say so. Maybe you'd like to inform the cream of the British 
makers that their lutes aren't well made then.
Best,
Matthew



> On Jun 29, 2019, at 18:02, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> On well-made lutes - bridges don't sink.
> RT
> 
>> On 6/29/2019 10:30 AM, Matthew Daillie wrote:
>> Unfortunately things don't work that way. Generally over time the tension of 
>> the strings pulls the bridge towards the neck so that its front edge sinks 
>> and this is what causes the bulge in the soundboard you refer to. It's true 
>> that if you have no dishing, this immediately makes the lute virtually 
>> unplayable (which is another reason I like 6 mm or so of dishing). I don't 
>> think there is any evidence (or physical explanation I can think of) to 
>> suggest that a flat soundboard is going to be more subject to this 
>> phenomenon than one with dishing, it's just that the latter has more leeway. 
>> Different soundboards seem to react in different ways. I have a lute which 
>> is over 20 years old which has virtually no sign of the bridge sinking 
>> whereas a more recent lute might show signs of a sinking bridge within a 
>> very short period of time. I suspect that very thin soundboards are more 
>> prone to the problem.
>> 
>> Some late baroque lutes had convex bars between the rose and the bridge 
>> which might have been intended to try to limit the phenomenon of the bridge 
>> sinking over time. The corresponding bridges would have been convex.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 29 juin 2019 à 15:10, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>> 
>>> Physics, I suppose!))
>>> The pull of the strings deepens the scoop, rather then lifting the bridge.
>>> 
>>> The non-concave soundboard also carries a large risk of becoming convex, 
>>> and I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the bridge and the 
>>> rose.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://turovsky.org
>>> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Matthew Daillie  
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> What is the reasoning behind that claim?
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Matthew
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Le 29 juin 2019 à 12:37, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>>>> 
>>>>> The scoop keeps the action stable, and that’s its main function.
>>>>> An axe without the scoop is a disaster to be avoided.
>>>>> RT
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> 

[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

Unfortunately things don't work that way. Generally over time the tension of 
the strings pulls the bridge towards the neck so that its front edge sinks and 
this is what causes the bulge in the soundboard you refer to. It's true that if 
you have no dishing, this immediately makes the lute virtually unplayable 
(which is another reason I like 6 mm or so of dishing). I don't think there is 
any evidence (or physical explanation I can think of) to suggest that a flat 
soundboard is going to be more subject to this phenomenon than one with 
dishing, it's just that the latter has more leeway. Different soundboards seem 
to react in different ways. I have a lute which is over 20 years old which has 
virtually no sign of the bridge sinking whereas a more recent lute might show 
signs of a sinking bridge within a very short period of time. I suspect that 
very thin soundboards are more prone to the problem.

Some late baroque lutes had convex bars between the rose and the bridge which 
might have been intended to try to limit the phenomenon of the bridge sinking 
over time. The corresponding bridges would have been convex.

Best,

Matthew


Le 29 juin 2019 à 15:10, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :

> Physics, I suppose!)) 
> The pull of the strings deepens the scoop, rather then lifting the bridge.
> 
> The non-concave soundboard also carries a large risk of becoming convex, and 
> I’ve seen a few lutes with a nasty bulge between the bridge and the rose.
> RT 
> 
> 
> http://turovsky.org
> Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.
> 
>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Matthew Daillie  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> What is the reasoning behind that claim?
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Matthew
>> 
>> 
>>> Le 29 juin 2019 à 12:37, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>> 
>>> The scoop keeps the action stable, and that’s its main function.
>>> An axe without the scoop is a disaster to be avoided.
>>> RT 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

What is the reasoning behind that claim?

Best,

Matthew


Le 29 juin 2019 à 12:37, r.turov...@gmail.com a écrit :

> The scoop keeps the action stable, and that’s its main function.
> An axe without the scoop is a disaster to be avoided.
> RT 


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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

Sorry, I don't understand this comment. Are you referring to soundboard 
thicknesses? If so, how is this relevant to dishing?

Best,

Matthew


Le 29 juin 2019 à 07:27, Mark Probert  a écrit :

> Depending, a soundboard will be between 1.5 and 3.0 mm (average is 
> about 2.2mm).  If you need more room, it is usually easier to add it
> at the bridge and then adjust the other design parameters to suit.
> 
> .. mark.


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[LUTE] Re: Plucking Room

[Matthew Daillie]

This is a difficult one to correct convincingly without major work. I find 6 mm 
halfway between the bridge and the rose is a comfortable height, but each to 
his own. The only really satisfactory way of getting more dishing into the 
soundboard is to have the top off and remove some of the wood from the upper 
ribs, so not something you would want to be undertaking on a friend's vihuela. 
If the action is low enough you might be able to improve matters slightly by 
putting some slips of paper under the nut and a piece of hard wood on the top 
of the bridge (obviously you have to avoid making the action unplayable whilst 
looking to increase the dishing!).

Best,

Matthew


Le 22 juin 2019 à 15:25, "Edward C. Yong"  a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
> 
> Question re plucking room. I’ve never had to think about how much space there 
> was between the string and the soundboard, and I realise this means I’ve 
> always had good setups in this area. 
> 
> I have been playing a friend’s vihuela (by Luca Piccioni of Assisi) that has 
> always seemed to have the strings ridiculously close to the soundboard, and 
> my fingertips constantly brush the soundboard when I play. 
> 
> Out of curiosity, I decided to measure just how much space there was. At the 
> bridge loop, the strings are 6 mm from the soundboard. At the lower edge of 
> the rose, the string height is 3-4 mm. 
> 
> To compare, I measured my Joseph Mayes renaissance guitar - that has about 
> 8-9 mm at the bridge, and goes to 6 mm at the base of the rose. My Sir Ian 
> Harwood renaissance lute has 7 mm at the bridge, and 6 mm at the base of the 
> rose. 
> 
> The loops at the bridge are at maximum height already. The left-hand action 
> is perfectly fine, but I can’t be constantly brushing the soundboard with my 
> right hand as I play!
> 
> I’m wondering what can be done about this, suggestions welcome!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Edward
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Folger 280

[Matthew Daillie]

There is a 6-page introduction by Ian Harwood to the Lute Society facsimile 
edition. Is this what you are after?

Best,
Matthew



> On Jun 4, 2019, at 19:38, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> does anybody know if Ian Harwood's
> 
> ‘Aspects of the Folger “Dowland” Lute Book (MS v.b.280)’
> 
> has ever been published in any form?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Instrument Buzz

[Matthew Daillie]

Sounds like it could be a loose bar or maybe an issue with the rose. Try 
holding the instrument with your fingers on the underside and with your thumb 
go round the edge of the soundboard applying a LITTLE pressure to see whether 
there are any noises of the soundboard moving against a bar (like a little 
click probably). You can also tap lightly on different areas of the top with 
the tip of your middle finger to see if there are any unwelcome noises. 
Obviously do this as gently as possible.
Have you checked on the relative humidity? If you have a concert coming up and 
you think there is a loose bar, make sure the relative humidity is at least 50% 
(but no more than 65%) and this might resolve the issue temporarily.
Best,
Matthew



> On May 20, 2019, at 18:01, "Edward C. Yong"  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone, 
> 
> A bit of buzz is driving me crazy. I have a renaissance guitar and there’s a 
> buzz that starts with the plucked note and dies down quite quickly. 
> 
> I’ve checked the bridge for any loose bits of string - nothing. 
> 
> I’ve checked the pegbox/peghead for loose buzzy strings - nothing.
> 
> No possibility of frets being too high and buzzing, as the buzzing happens at 
> all notes at all positions. 
> 
> I’m hoping it’s not something beneath the soundboard that’s loose and causing 
> the buzz.
> 
> It doesn’t buzz when the instrument is flat, with the rose facing up. It 
> buzzes when the instrument is in a playing position - with the rose facing 
> sideways. It buzzes with the rose facing down. 
> 
> I’m on the verge of having this sent to the nearest luthier, but have a 
> performance coming up. I just hope the audience won’t be able to hear the 
> subtle buzz, as we’re not being amplified…
> 
> Best,
> 
> Edward
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: CLM 90

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Rainer,

Diana Poulton's commentary remains unchanged in the 1981 edition.

I find your conclusion quite convincing but why then remove the diminished bar 
(31) rather than the repeat of bar 15 (bar 32)?

Best,

Matthew

Le 19 mai 2019 à 14:54, Rainer  a écrit :

> Dear lute netters,
> 
> today I had a closer look at CLM90 - the version of the Frog Galliard in 
> 3056, 42v-43r.
> 
> There is a strange error apparently not understood by Diana Poulton (I have 
> the 1974 edition) nor by John Robinson (Music supplement 113, April 2015):
> 
> Apparently the second strain is too long - it ends on bar 33.
> 
> Diana Poulton writes "an extra bar is introduced"
> 
> I think it is quite clear what really happened here.
> 
> Bar 31 is a division of bar 15.
> Then the scribe of 3056 copied bar 15 once again - in its original state.
> 
> Later he noticed that there was an extra bar.
> He tried to solve the problem and made things much worse.
> He tried to join bars 32 and 33 into a single bar.
> This is obvious from the digital version of 3056 - probably not from a 
> microfilm.
> 
> I think there is only one feasible solution: Remove bar 31 or 32. To my ears 
> removing bar 31 sounds better.
> 
> Any ideas anybody?
> 
> Has Poulton changed her mind in later editions?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: decent field recorder for lute

[Matthew Daillie]

I have a Tascam DR-1 and it has given me years of loyal service. It gives a 
very clean, natural sound, has good build quality and the original battery 
still provides outstanding autonomy. This model has obviously been superseded 
but there are several others on offer. Try to see one in the flesh before 
purchase to check on the robustness of the models of the present range. Tascam 
have been in business for years, notably providing equipment to professional 
recording studios and radio stations but I suspect the cheaper models cut 
corners on solidity.

Best,

Matthew


Le 17 mai 2019 à 17:29, Tristan von Neumann  a écrit :

> Dear collective experience,
> 
> 
> while we're at it:
> I finally have some small budget to buy a recording device.
> 
> 
> What I want:
> * use it at home to record lute music and other instruments
> 
> (* use it as a usb mic)
> 
> * take it with me and record in the park or pub or wherever a session
> might come along
> 
> * I have linux, so at least it should be possible to extract the files
> without removing the SD card
> 
> 
> So far, the Zoom H2n seems like the best option. Some people say the
> noise is quite high, others don't.
> 
> (Samples from youtube with guitar seem ok, but not really sparkling - I
> know, this is not a replacement big membrane studio mic, but still...)
> 
> In Germany, the Zoom is available for around 150 Eurobucks.
> 
> 
> What are the alternatives? (and keep in mind that it should be available
> in Germany...)
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: ornament in Sturt/ML lute book

[Matthew Daillie]

I find that interpreting this sign as a backfall or descending appoggiatura 
sounds pretty convincing in Robert Johnson's pavans.

Best,

Matthew

Le 15 mai 2019 à 17:26, Alain Veylit  a écrit :

> Thank you Martin,
> 
> I also found this interesting discussion of lute ornaments on your site: 
> http://www.luteshop.co.uk/dowland/dgraces.html
> 
> I am wondering if there could be a particular meaning to the 7-shaped sign in 
> Johnson's pavan - if there is one, I have not found it...
> 
> Alain


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[LUTE] Re: John Renborn article

[Matthew Daillie]

The Lute Society of America Quarterly Volume XLI, 2006 issue No. 3 had an 
interview with John Renbourn by Denys Stephens.


Best,

Matthew


Le 26 avr. 2019 à 14:15, Wayne  a écrit :

> Hi - Can someone remind me what LSA journal had an article about John Renborn?
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[LUTE] Re: GB Lbl ms 16889

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Ed,

I don't know if this helps but Peter Steur and Markus Lutz provide the incipit. 
Maybe you could contact them to see if they have a copy.

https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=GB-LbmBotnia=eng=all=20

The MANUSCRIPT SOURCES IN TABLATURE site gives the following concordance of 
this piece in the Jagiellonian Library:

Cordon bleu [ou La nouvelle Moutarde]
PL-Kj Mus. ms. 40626, f. 17v-18

Best,

Matthew


Le 18 avr. 2019 à 00:15, Edward Martin  a écrit :

>   Dear Ones,
>   I am in search of a particular piece in a particular source.   I would
>   like to s   "Cordon Bleu" which appears on f.   99r.
>   I cannot seem to find this on line.   Can anyone provide it to me?
>   Thanks!
>   Ed
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


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[LUTE] Re: robin

[Matthew Daillie]

Sarge Gerbode has put the manuscript online. You can download Robin here:

http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/cambridge_university_library/Dd.3.18/11.png

Best,

Matthew


Le 8 avr. 2019 à 09:45, Martin Shepherd  a écrit :

> Dear All,
> 
> Can anyone provide me with a copy of the duet treble for Robin from Dd.3.18?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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[LUTE] Re: robin

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Martin,
Did you want a facsimile of the original or would Nigel North's edition 
(Tablature for Two Lutes Vol 1 p.3) be enough?
Best wishes,
Matthew



> On Apr 8, 2019, at 9:45, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> Can anyone provide me with a copy of the duet treble for Robin from Dd.3.18?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> ---
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> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: theorbo music

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi again Jeff,

I forgot, there are also some pieces in the Manuscrit Rés 1106 (Bibliothèque 
Nationale de Paris) which must be online somewhere because I have a (rather 
poor quality) scan on my HD. Send me a private message if you can't find it and 
I shall try to extract the relevant pieces from what is rather a large file.

Best,

Matthew


Le 26 mars 2019 à 23:34, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net a écrit :

> Hi, folks—
> 
> I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo theorbo music 
> by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in names—Estienne Lemoyne, 
> Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)
> 
> Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive in 
> manuscript.
> 
> I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend my time 
> playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on the list can 
> point me to a more readily available source (digital or print), I’d be very 
> much obliged.
> 
> Thanks for help.
> 
> jeff
> 
> 
> --
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Strange notation

[Matthew Daillie]

I meant Brown 1548/3 and 1548/2 (the Forni facsimile is of the former).

Le 27 mars 2019 à 09:12, Rainer  a écrit :

> Dear lute netters,
> 
> in Brown 1546_3 (whcih is more or less a reprint of Brown 1546_2)
> "Intavolatura di lauto del divino Francesco da Milano,
> et dell''eccellente Pietro Paulo Borrono da Milano, nuovamente [...]"
> 
> there is a somewhat strange notation - which may be explained in the regola, 
> but I do not understand Italian.
> 
> He uses brackets like
> 
> (1 0)
> 
> I assume this is an ornament - isn't it called a "pull-off" in English?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Strange notation

[Matthew Daillie]

I presume you mean Brown 1548/2 Rainer. That facsimile was published by Arnaldo 
Forni and includes an introduction by Franco Pavan who discusses these upper 
appoggiatura ornaments (which are indeed mentioned in the Regola). Contact me 
privately if you want me to send you more details.

Best,

Matthew


Le 27 mars 2019 à 09:12, Rainer  a écrit :

> Dear lute netters,
> 
> in Brown 1546_3 (whcih is more or less a reprint of Brown 1546_2)
> "Intavolatura di lauto del divino Francesco da Milano,
> et dell''eccellente Pietro Paulo Borrono da Milano, nuovamente [...]"
> 
> there is a somewhat strange notation - which may be explained in the regola, 
> but I do not understand Italian.
> 
> He uses brackets like
> 
> (1 0)
> 
> I assume this is an ornament - isn't it called a "pull-off" in English?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: theorbo music

[Matthew Daillie]

There are a number of pieces by Le Moyne in the Saizenay manuscript online here:

http://culture.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/a011284026247S0XA9H/1/1

Best,

Matthew


Le 26 mars 2019 à 23:34, jjnoo...@sbcglobal.net a écrit :

> Hi, folks—
> 
> I’m trying to track down scores (facsimile or edition) of solo theorbo music 
> by Etienne Le Moine (seems to be some variety in names—Estienne Lemoyne, 
> Estienne Le Moyne, etc.)
> 
> Appears that he left fewer than 10 pieces and that these all survive in 
> manuscript.
> 
> I can do the library digging if necessary, but I’d prefer to spend my time 
> playing the music, rather than tracking it down. If someone on the list can 
> point me to a more readily available source (digital or print), I’d be very 
> much obliged.
> 
> Thanks for help.
> 
> jeff
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: baroque lute duets

[Matthew Daillie]

There are some 'contreparties' to works by French baroque composers Dufaut, 
Dupré and Mercure in the Goëss V manuscript (published by Tree Edition) and a 
modern edition of five suites for two eleven course lutes from a manuscript in 
Warsaw (RM 4135) in the hand of Gusta Goldschmidt published by Nederlanse 
Vereniging.
Best,
Matthew

On Mar 23, 2019, at 16:19, Roland Hayes  wrote:

>>Hi B lutenists
>>On a different question.
>>Do you know where I might acquire any Baroque lute duet sheet
>   music? I
>>have some duets but just for B lute and flute.
>>Thanks
>>Dick Brook



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[LUTE] Re: Dowland

[Matthew Daillie]

Stainer & Bell (although the choice of font for the tab is not very nice to 
read).
Best
Matthew



> On Mar 2, 2019, at 22:36, Leonard Williams  wrote:
> 
>   Is there a modern edition (in tablature)  available of Dowland's
>   various books of songs and airs?
> 
>   Thanks,
>   Leonard Williams
> 
>   --
> 
> 
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[LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars

[Matthew Daillie]

>From what I've seen it's pretty straightforward, you just need to replace the 
>upbeat at the end of the bar with the repeat sign with the anacrusis of the 
>first bar. Sometimes the note values of the anacrusis are not the same but 
>this doesn't really matter as one is making a pause before starting the piece 
>again from the beginning. The values of the last beat of the repeat bars work 
>fine when playing straight through the second time round.
Despite Galilei's claims to the contrary, there are a few printers mistakes too 
and there is doubtlessly an element of improvisation in the way the 
introductory anacruses should be played anyway (as perhaps indicated, for 
example, by the occasional long note values).
Best,
Matthew 



> On Dec 25, 2018, at 12:51, Joachim Lüdtke  wrote:
> 
> that is what I found in the introduction too, and still you have to cope with 
> the Situation Ed describes. I tend to your No 2, Ed!



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[LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars

[Matthew Daillie]

The Minkoff facsimile provides an English translation. Here is an extract:
'... since my sonatas might offer some difficulty to... players not yet very 
experienced in this art... these people must be satisfied with playing simply 
the first and second part of the Correnti and Volte, which they may repeat 
without the diminutions and this will not make the the sonata imperfect.'

Best,
Matthew


> On Dec 25, 2018, at 2:41, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
> It looks like Michelagnolo Galilei doesn’t give any instructions in his book, 
> but could an Italian speaker confirm that? Is there an English translation of 
> his dedication and author page anywhere?
> What I’m interested in at the moment is whether he gives any guidance on how 
> to perform repeats. He has two kinds of repeat signs: the normal one that is 
> at the end of a full bar and one that is in the middle of a bar. Repeats 
> mostly occurs in voltas because most other pieces have written out style 
> brisé passages. 
> 
> Of the second kind, typically, the first section ends on a half note or 
> quarter note with a repeat sign under the remaining notes. There are two 
> possible interpretations. 
> 1. Hold the first beat of the last measure for three full beats then repeat 
> from the very beginning.
> 2. Combine the last measure and the first making just one measure.
> In the second interpretation, one assumes that on the repeat playing one 
> would start with the last quarter of the first measure after a half note in 
> the last measure. He is not always so straightforward though. For example 
> there might be a dotted quarter at the end of a section but three quarter 
> notes at the start. I wonder if he mentions anything in the Italian text.
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> See my latest video at:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Da Milano

[Matthew Daillie]

I would suggest reading Dinko Fabris's article 'The Origin of Italian Lute 
Tablature', if you can find it (it was published in in 2001 in Basler Jahrbuch 
für Historische Musikpraxis)!

There are two lute pieces in Neapolitan tabulature in the Pesaro manuscript Ms. 
1144 but that doesn't answer your question regarding printed sources other than 
da Milano's 1536 Libro secondo.

Best,

Matthew


Le 11 déc. 2018 à 11:05, "G. C."  a écrit :

> Found book 1 and It corresponds to Gerbode's facsimile.
> 
>   So, is volume 2 of Sulzbach the only print we have of neapolitan tab?
>   G.
> 
>   --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Music stands

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Martin,
There are music stands that that really solves this problem by having a 
footprint in the form of an 'L' with its vertical support to the left so that 
you are never in danger of kicking it and you can move your feet (and even 
cross your legs!) at will. I have one made by RATstands. Its tray is sturdy but 
light and acoustically neutral. The only issues are price (I was lucky to find 
one on sale) and the fact that it is not foldaway.
Best,
Matthew

> On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:13, Martin Shepherd  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for this Stewart.  But I've now remembered the really importan thing 
> about all this - not to kick the stand while playing



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[LUTE] Re: Looking for the printed Minkoff facsimile of the Manuscrit Barbe

[Matthew Daillie]

I fear that you might be rather disappointed with the Minkoff edition (R.I.P.) 
of the manuscript. One can see from the digital version of the Bibliothèque 
Nationale that the red colour used for the right-hand fingerings has faded 
badly and Minkoff tried to rectify this but the result is that the numbers are 
frequently illegible and there are gaps in the tablature lines.

Minkoff seemed to have technical difficulties with printing colour facsimiles. 
Parts of their Milan edition are indeed useless as it was printed in B & W (in 
the original print,  red ink was used to distinguish the voice which was 
written directly into the tablature). The Sociedad de la Vihuela edition is far 
superior.

Best,
Matthew


Le 13 oct. 2018 à 18:13, Luca Manassero  a écrit :

> Dear collective wisdom,
> 
>   I already have a digital copy of the Manuscrit Barbe, but the printed
>   facsimile of Minkoff Editions is simply beautiful (with all those
>   "vivid red" annotations).
> 
>   Should anybody have a printed MINKOFF copy and could part from it, I'd
>   be a very happy customer!
> 
>   Thank you in advance,
> 
>   Luca


--

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[LUTE] Re: The origins of tablature

[Matthew Daillie]

To expand on Ralf's comments and to complement Elam Rotem's video, there is an 
interesting section on notation and the various types of keyboard tablature in 
Alexander Silbiger's book 'Keyboard Music before 1700', published by Routledge 
(pages 2-8).

Best,
Matthew


Le 8 oct. 2018 à 00:44, Ralf Mattes  a écrit :

> -  "music for keyboard was NOT notated in tablature."  As others have already 
> remarked, keyboard
>music was notated in tablature - but what easily gets neglected is the 
> fact that 16th century keyboard
>music was only notated in tablature, only we don't recoginize it as such 
> since the italian keyboard tablature
>evolved into modern scores.
> 
> BTW, nice intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl1m7bOoI7I
> 
> Cheers, RalfD


--

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[LUTE] Re: The origins of tablature

[Matthew Daillie]

This is untrue. There were other types of keyboard tablature, such as the 
Spanish tablature used by Cabezón in which the staff comprised as many lines as 
there were voices (the duos only having two lines, for example) and the notes 
were indicated with numbers 1 to 7,  to which signs were added to indicate the 
octave. It is actually pretty straightforward to play from.

Best,
Matthew


Le 7 oct. 2018 à 18:58, Rainer  a écrit :

> This seems to be a very poor argument since - apart from German organ 
> tablature - music for keyboard was NOT notated in tablature.


--

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[LUTE] Re: The awful English language

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Howard,
You might be interested in this video which summarizes some of the research 
carried out by David Crystal et al on English pronunciation at the time of 
Shakespeare (and Dowland) and the productions of his plays at the Globe theatre 
using 'Original Pronunciation':
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s
There is also an interesting book edited by Timothy McGee entitled 'Singing 
Early Music - the pronunciation of European languages in the Late Middle Ages 
and Renaissance'.
Best,
Matthew



> On Sep 16, 2018, at 20:59, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> We know far more about how to pronounce Beowulf and other pre-1066 writings 
> than we do about how to pronounce Shakespeare.



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[LUTE] Re: What 'last changes' can you demand to a lute maker when receiving you new instrument

[Matthew Daillie]

Minor adjustments can also be made to the action by planing the fingerboard to 
lower it or putting paper under the nut or a strip of wood on the top of the 
bridge to heighten it.



> On Sep 13, 2018, at 8:48, Jurgen Frenz  
> wrote:
> 
>   Hi there,
> 
>   I often read when players comment on their new instrument that they are
>   very happy with it after demanding a few adjustments. I'm totally
>   ignorant as to what changes one could possibly request - the instrument
>   is done, so what can the luthier still do?
> 
>   I'd be glad to find out what changes you asked for in the past, or what
>   you think is still possible to do.
> 
>   Thanks a lot!
> 
>   Best regards
> 
>   Jurgen
> 
>   --
>   "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
> 
>   JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
> 



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[LUTE] Re: What 'last changes' can you demand to a lute maker when receiving you new instrument

[Matthew Daillie]

Oh, and I could have mentioned changes to frets and solving minor buzzes (which 
could  also involve working on the fingerboard).



> On Sep 13, 2018, at 8:48, Jurgen Frenz  
> wrote:
> 
>   Hi there,
> 
>   I often read when players comment on their new instrument that they are
>   very happy with it after demanding a few adjustments. I'm totally
>   ignorant as to what changes one could possibly request - the instrument
>   is done, so what can the luthier still do?
> 
>   I'd be glad to find out what changes you asked for in the past, or what
>   you think is still possible to do.
> 
>   Thanks a lot!
> 
>   Best regards
> 
>   Jurgen
> 
>   --
>   "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
> 
>   JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
> 



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[LUTE] Re: What 'last changes' can you demand to a lute maker when receiving you new instrument

[Matthew Daillie]

Not an awful lot. Minor adjustments to left and right hand spacings (the former 
being more straightforward than the latter as it is possible to redo the nut) 
and string changes are the most obvious. There can also be issues with pegs 
(although there shouldn't be). All the major choices (such as dishing, bridge 
span and obviously string length and body shape) are built into the instrument 
and need to be stipulated before work starts.
Best,
Matthew

> On Sep 13, 2018, at 8:48, Jurgen Frenz  
> wrote:
> 
>   Hi there,
> 
>   I often read when players comment on their new instrument that they are
>   very happy with it after demanding a few adjustments. I'm totally
>   ignorant as to what changes one could possibly request - the instrument
>   is done, so what can the luthier still do?
> 
>   I'd be glad to find out what changes you asked for in the past, or what
>   you think is still possible to do.
> 
>   Thanks a lot!
> 
>   Best regards
> 
>   Jurgen



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[LUTE] Re: ***SPAM*** More dots

[Matthew Daillie]

Sorry Sean, the 'SPAM' attribute was automatically generated and added by my 
Internet provider who seems to have little regard for the finer details of 
performing Renaissance music.
Best,
Matthew



> On Aug 4, 2018, at 11:12, Matthew Daillie  wrote:
> 
> Rotta uses dots to indicate non use of the thumb, as can be seen with the 
> broken chords elsewhere in the same pieces.
> In the Minkoff reprint the dance pieces you refer to are entitled Gairda and 
> Padouana respectively. Obviously the key to a convincing performance is to be 
> very familiar with the dance rhythms involved and this in turn can help with 
> the choice of right-hand fingering and technique.
> This advice comes from someone who has two left feet and so avoids the dance 
> floor like the plague...
> Best,
> Matthew
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 4, 2018, at 1:15, Sean Smith  wrote:
>> 
>>  Antonio Rota in his first book has a Saltarelo and Piva in the Dm
>>  Antico dance cycle that includes the passage (more or less similar in
>>  each)
>>  I2 0.2.3.5.7.I
>>  I3 2.3.5.7.8.I   etc.
>>  It may not be clear above but it's a run of thirds where each cipher
>>  has a dot following. The passage continues into the 2nd and third
>>  courses and the initial downbeat in each measure is undotted. Is he
>>  suggesting both notes are
>>  a) played with the index
>>  b) some non-thumb finger
>>  c) something else? brushed? strummed? two-note dedillo? lighter?
>>  AR is quite liberal in his right-of-cipher dottage in this print while
>>  the Gardane print (same year) strips them all away.
>>  AR also uses dots beside rootless chords on off-beats, including
>>  non-adjacent strings. I'm suspecting the innocuous dot may have other
>>  meanings beside "index finger here" but I'm not sure what. Suggestions?
>>  Speculation?
>>  Here is the facsimile link to the book [with thanks to Jo Bringmann].
>>  The passages are on 13v and 15r.
>>  [1]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0007/bsb00071965/images/index.ht
>>  ml?id=00071965==193.174.98.30==26
>>  Sean
>> 
>>  --
>> 
>> References
>> 
>>  1. 
>> http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0007/bsb00071965/images/index.html?id=00071965==193.174.98.30==26
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: ***SPAM*** More dots

[Matthew Daillie]

Rotta uses dots to indicate non use of the thumb, as can be seen with the 
broken chords elsewhere in the same pieces.
In the Minkoff reprint the dance pieces you refer to are entitled Gairda and 
Padouana respectively. Obviously the key to a convincing performance is to be 
very familiar with the dance rhythms involved and this in turn can help with 
the choice of right-hand fingering and technique.
This advice comes from someone who has two left feet and so avoids the dance 
floor like the plague...
Best,
Matthew



> On Aug 4, 2018, at 1:15, Sean Smith  wrote:
> 
>   Antonio Rota in his first book has a Saltarelo and Piva in the Dm
>   Antico dance cycle that includes the passage (more or less similar in
>   each)
>   I2 0.2.3.5.7.I
>   I3 2.3.5.7.8.I   etc.
>   It may not be clear above but it's a run of thirds where each cipher
>   has a dot following. The passage continues into the 2nd and third
>   courses and the initial downbeat in each measure is undotted. Is he
>   suggesting both notes are
>   a) played with the index
>   b) some non-thumb finger
>   c) something else? brushed? strummed? two-note dedillo? lighter?
>   AR is quite liberal in his right-of-cipher dottage in this print while
>   the Gardane print (same year) strips them all away.
>   AR also uses dots beside rootless chords on off-beats, including
>   non-adjacent strings. I'm suspecting the innocuous dot may have other
>   meanings beside "index finger here" but I'm not sure what. Suggestions?
>   Speculation?
>   Here is the facsimile link to the book [with thanks to Jo Bringmann].
>   The passages are on 13v and 15r.
>   [1]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0007/bsb00071965/images/index.ht
>   ml?id=00071965==193.174.98.30==26
>   Sean
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. 
> http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0007/bsb00071965/images/index.html?id=00071965==193.174.98.30==26
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Redrilling bridge holes for high action, was Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

I apologize for the multiple posts earlier on, my internet provider has 
been playing tricks on me!


Best,
Matthew



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Redrilling bridge holes for high action, was Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

   That is a bit of a specialist job and even lute makers tend to hate
   doing it (although it can be done). Unless the present holes are
   particularly high, you probably wouldn't gain much anyway and you might
   encounter the problem afterwards of the strings being too close to the
   soundboard for comfort (you are effectively loosing the benefit of
   whatever dishing there is).
   An over high action (measured from the fingerboard to the underside of
   the top string at the 8th fret) can be adjusted either by planing down
   the fingerboard if the luthier made it thick enough, (best case
   scenario) or by taking the top off and removing wood from the ribs
   (expensive business). If the action is really high you might even be
   talking about having to reset the neck.
   If you only need very minor gains then you could try retying the
   strings and use more windings around the bridge, pushing the strings
   down gently as you tune them up so that they lie lower.
   Best,
   Matthew

 Has anyone ever tried re-drilling the holes to lower the action? How
 might one do that without removing the bridge?

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

 On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:37 PM, guy_and_liz Smith
 <[1]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
 I enlarged a couple of bridge holes on my old Larry Brown, which was
 apparently drilled for relatively thin wound basses and couldn't
 accommodate larger gut strings. I used what's called a pin vise to
 hold the drill (standard item in machine shops), with some tape on
 the top to protect it from the vise. Then just gently spin the pin
 vise with your fingers to drill out the hole. The main trick is
 finding a vice that's skinny enough to handle the spacing between
 hole and top.
 Here's one example of a pin vise:
 [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.c
 om_Starrett-2D162A-2DVise-2D0-2D0-2D040-2DRange_dp_B06Y5SG9LD_ref-3D
 sr-5F1-5F6-3Fs-3Dhi-26ie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1530300625-26sr-3D1-2D6-26ke
 ywords-3Dpin-2Bvise=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK
 y6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6j
 CjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY=VkMbfG1-1rjLpHg35Z1_NPV0P7ozNZteRfj
 QLWQdI3Q=
 Guy
 -Original Message-
 From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 11:50 AM
 To: lutelist Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?
 Hi Howard,
 Even in relatively dry climates gut somehow manages to absorb
 humidity
 and swell over time.
 Personally I would try to avoid lubricating the strings. Have you
 tried
 cutting the end at an angle to slip it through?  You could probably
 also
 gently sand the last 5 mm or so of the end of the string with some
 very
 fine emery paper without the risk of fraying or weakening.
 Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the
 appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if
 you're
 interested).
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 29/06/2018 19:14, howard posner wrote:

 I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which
 involves moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course
 becomes the 12th for one stringing B, then gets moved back for
 stringing A.
 I now find that couple of gut extension strings won't fit through
 bridge holes that they always fit through before.  I tried
 blow-drying the string ends, on the assumption that they had swelled
 with humidity (not a sound assumption where I live), without
 success.
 So now, if I don't want to string the whole instrument lighter, it
 seems I have two options:
 widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I'd like
 to try lubricating first.
 Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-3A-252F-252Fwww.cs.dartmout
 h.edu-252F-7Ewbc-252Flute-2Dadmin-252Findex.html-26data-3D02-257C01-
 257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5ddf13779-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa
 aa-257C1-257C0-257C636658950444650467-26sdata-3DkNJclNqJmJgD
 eC5C5VeNawW0K5F7LzF-252FTJcgosQSnHQ-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwIFaQ=l
 45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
 MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6jCjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY
 =jBrUoVSMUtmITLVDRIEt0FwUXuBrRJuRD8BNz-sI1r4=
 ---
 Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG.
 [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.avg.com-2
 6data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5dd

[LUTE] Re: Redrilling bridge holes for high action, was Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

   That is a bit of a specialist job and even lute makers tend to hate
   doing it (although it can be done). Unless the present holes are
   particularly high, you probably wouldn't gain much anyway and you might
   encounter the problem afterwards of the strings being too close to the
   soundboard for comfort (you are effectively loosing the benefit of
   whatever dishing there is).
   An over high action (measured from the fingerboard to the underside of
   the top string at the 8th fret) can be adjusted either by planing down
   the fingerboard if the luthier made it thick enough, (best case
   scenario) or by taking the top off and removing wood from the ribs
   (expensive business). If the action is really high you might even be
   talking about having to reset the neck.
   If you only need very minor gains then you could try retying the
   strings and use more windings around the bridge, pushing the strings
   down gently as you tune them up so that they lie lower.
   Best,
   Matthew

 Has anyone ever tried re-drilling the holes to lower the action? How
 might one do that without removing the bridge?

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

 On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:37 PM, guy_and_liz Smith
 <[1]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
 I enlarged a couple of bridge holes on my old Larry Brown, which was
 apparently drilled for relatively thin wound basses and couldn't
 accommodate larger gut strings. I used what's called a pin vise to
 hold the drill (standard item in machine shops), with some tape on
 the top to protect it from the vise. Then just gently spin the pin
 vise with your fingers to drill out the hole. The main trick is
 finding a vice that's skinny enough to handle the spacing between
 hole and top.
 Here's one example of a pin vise:
 [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.c
 om_Starrett-2D162A-2DVise-2D0-2D0-2D040-2DRange_dp_B06Y5SG9LD_ref-3D
 sr-5F1-5F6-3Fs-3Dhi-26ie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1530300625-26sr-3D1-2D6-26ke
 ywords-3Dpin-2Bvise=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK
 y6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6j
 CjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY=VkMbfG1-1rjLpHg35Z1_NPV0P7ozNZteRfj
 QLWQdI3Q=
 Guy
 -Original Message-
 From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 11:50 AM
 To: lutelist Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?
 Hi Howard,
 Even in relatively dry climates gut somehow manages to absorb
 humidity
 and swell over time.
 Personally I would try to avoid lubricating the strings. Have you
 tried
 cutting the end at an angle to slip it through?  You could probably
 also
 gently sand the last 5 mm or so of the end of the string with some
 very
 fine emery paper without the risk of fraying or weakening.
 Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the
 appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if
 you're
 interested).
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 29/06/2018 19:14, howard posner wrote:

 I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which
 involves moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course
 becomes the 12th for one stringing B, then gets moved back for
 stringing A.
 I now find that couple of gut extension strings won't fit through
 bridge holes that they always fit through before.  I tried
 blow-drying the string ends, on the assumption that they had swelled
 with humidity (not a sound assumption where I live), without
 success.
 So now, if I don't want to string the whole instrument lighter, it
 seems I have two options:
 widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I'd like
 to try lubricating first.
 Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-3A-252F-252Fwww.cs.dartmout
 h.edu-252F-7Ewbc-252Flute-2Dadmin-252Findex.html-26data-3D02-257C01-
 257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5ddf13779-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa
 aa-257C1-257C0-257C636658950444650467-26sdata-3DkNJclNqJmJgD
 eC5C5VeNawW0K5F7LzF-252FTJcgosQSnHQ-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwIFaQ=l
 45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
 MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6jCjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY
 =jBrUoVSMUtmITLVDRIEt0FwUXuBrRJuRD8BNz-sI1r4=
 ---
 Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG.
 [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.avg.com-2
 6data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5dd

[LUTE] Re: Redrilling bridge holes for high action, was Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

   That is a bit of a specialist job and even lute makers tend to hate
   doing it (although it can be done). Unless the present holes are
   particularly high, you probably wouldn't gain much anyway and you might
   encounter the problem afterwards of the strings being too close to the
   soundboard for comfort (you are effectively loosing the benefit of
   whatever dishing there is).
   An over high action (measured from the fingerboard to the underside of
   the top string at the 8th fret) can be adjusted either by planing down
   the fingerboard if the luthier made it thick enough, (best case
   scenario) or by taking the top off and removing wood from the ribs
   (expensive business). If the action is really high you might even be
   talking about having to reset the neck.
   If you only need very minor gains then you could try retying the
   strings and use more windings around the bridge, pushing the strings
   down gently as you tune them up so that they lie lower.
   Best,
   Matthew

 Has anyone ever tried re-drilling the holes to lower the action? How
 might one do that without removing the bridge?

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

 On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:37 PM, guy_and_liz Smith
 <[1]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
 I enlarged a couple of bridge holes on my old Larry Brown, which was
 apparently drilled for relatively thin wound basses and couldn't
 accommodate larger gut strings. I used what's called a pin vise to
 hold the drill (standard item in machine shops), with some tape on
 the top to protect it from the vise. Then just gently spin the pin
 vise with your fingers to drill out the hole. The main trick is
 finding a vice that's skinny enough to handle the spacing between
 hole and top.
 Here's one example of a pin vise:
 [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.c
 om_Starrett-2D162A-2DVise-2D0-2D0-2D040-2DRange_dp_B06Y5SG9LD_ref-3D
 sr-5F1-5F6-3Fs-3Dhi-26ie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1530300625-26sr-3D1-2D6-26ke
 ywords-3Dpin-2Bvise=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK
 y6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6j
 CjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY=VkMbfG1-1rjLpHg35Z1_NPV0P7ozNZteRfj
 QLWQdI3Q=
 Guy
 -Original Message-
 From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 11:50 AM
 To: lutelist Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?
 Hi Howard,
 Even in relatively dry climates gut somehow manages to absorb
 humidity
 and swell over time.
 Personally I would try to avoid lubricating the strings. Have you
 tried
 cutting the end at an angle to slip it through?  You could probably
 also
 gently sand the last 5 mm or so of the end of the string with some
 very
 fine emery paper without the risk of fraying or weakening.
 Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the
 appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if
 you're
 interested).
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 29/06/2018 19:14, howard posner wrote:

 I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which
 involves moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course
 becomes the 12th for one stringing B, then gets moved back for
 stringing A.
 I now find that couple of gut extension strings won't fit through
 bridge holes that they always fit through before.  I tried
 blow-drying the string ends, on the assumption that they had swelled
 with humidity (not a sound assumption where I live), without
 success.
 So now, if I don't want to string the whole instrument lighter, it
 seems I have two options:
 widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I'd like
 to try lubricating first.
 Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-3A-252F-252Fwww.cs.dartmout
 h.edu-252F-7Ewbc-252Flute-2Dadmin-252Findex.html-26data-3D02-257C01-
 257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5ddf13779-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa
 aa-257C1-257C0-257C636658950444650467-26sdata-3DkNJclNqJmJgD
 eC5C5VeNawW0K5F7LzF-252FTJcgosQSnHQ-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwIFaQ=l
 45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
 MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6jCjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY
 =jBrUoVSMUtmITLVDRIEt0FwUXuBrRJuRD8BNz-sI1r4=
 ---
 Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG.
 [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.avg.com-2
 6data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5dd

[LUTE] Re: Redrilling bridge holes for high action, was Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

   That is a bit of a specialist job and even lute makers tend to hate
   doing it (although it can be done). Unless the present holes are
   particularly high, you probably wouldn't gain much anyway and you might
   encounter the problem afterwards of the strings being too close to the
   soundboard for comfort (you are effectively loosing the benefit of
   whatever dishing there is).
   An over high action (measured from the fingerboard to the underside of
   the top string at the 8th fret) can be adjusted either by planing down
   the fingerboard if the luthier made it thick enough, (best case
   scenario) or by taking the top off and removing wood from the ribs
   (expensive business). If the action is really high you might even be
   talking about having to reset the neck.
   If you only need very minor gains then you could try retying the
   strings and use more windings around the bridge, pushing the strings
   down gently as you tune them up so that they lie lower.
   Best,
   Matthew

 Has anyone ever tried re-drilling the holes to lower the action? How
 might one do that without removing the bridge?

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.

 On Jun 29, 2018, at 12:37 PM, guy_and_liz Smith
 <[1]guy_and_...@msn.com> wrote:
 I enlarged a couple of bridge holes on my old Larry Brown, which was
 apparently drilled for relatively thin wound basses and couldn't
 accommodate larger gut strings. I used what's called a pin vise to
 hold the drill (standard item in machine shops), with some tape on
 the top to protect it from the vise. Then just gently spin the pin
 vise with your fingers to drill out the hole. The main trick is
 finding a vice that's skinny enough to handle the spacing between
 hole and top.
 Here's one example of a pin vise:
 [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.c
 om_Starrett-2D162A-2DVise-2D0-2D0-2D040-2DRange_dp_B06Y5SG9LD_ref-3D
 sr-5F1-5F6-3Fs-3Dhi-26ie-3DUTF8-26qid-3D1530300625-26sr-3D1-2D6-26ke
 ywords-3Dpin-2Bvise=DwIFaQ=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuK
 y6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6j
 CjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY=VkMbfG1-1rjLpHg35Z1_NPV0P7ozNZteRfj
 QLWQdI3Q=
 Guy
 -Original Message-
 From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [[4]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Daillie
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 11:50 AM
 To: lutelist Net
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?
 Hi Howard,
 Even in relatively dry climates gut somehow manages to absorb
 humidity
 and swell over time.
 Personally I would try to avoid lubricating the strings. Have you
 tried
 cutting the end at an angle to slip it through?  You could probably
 also
 gently sand the last 5 mm or so of the end of the string with some
 very
 fine emery paper without the risk of fraying or weakening.
 Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the
 appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if
 you're
 interested).
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 29/06/2018 19:14, howard posner wrote:

 I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which
 involves moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course
 becomes the 12th for one stringing B, then gets moved back for
 stringing A.
 I now find that couple of gut extension strings won't fit through
 bridge holes that they always fit through before.  I tried
 blow-drying the string ends, on the assumption that they had swelled
 with humidity (not a sound assumption where I live), without
 success.
 So now, if I don't want to string the whole instrument lighter, it
 seems I have two options:
 widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I'd like
 to try lubricating first.
 Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-3A-252F-252Fwww.cs.dartmout
 h.edu-252F-7Ewbc-252Flute-2Dadmin-252Findex.html-26data-3D02-257C01-
 257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5ddf13779-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa
 aa-257C1-257C0-257C636658950444650467-26sdata-3DkNJclNqJmJgD
 eC5C5VeNawW0K5F7LzF-252FTJcgosQSnHQ-253D-26reserved-3D0=DwIFaQ=l
 45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
 MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=o18tltRbhed6jCjqKxpJAhCot28OtiG0dJ2bafjczwY
 =jBrUoVSMUtmITLVDRIEt0FwUXuBrRJuRD8BNz-sI1r4=
 ---
 Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG.
 [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__eur03.safeli
 nks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.avg.com-2
 6data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1c0cd246441345bb1e8408d5dd

[LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

On 29/06/2018 22:21, howard posner wrote:

Matthew, is there a particular reason for not lubricating the string, other 
than “it won’t work”?  Will it harm the bridge, or make it harder to enlarge 
the hole?


I'm just concerned that whatever you use is going to seep into the wood 
of the bridge and possibly get onto the soundboard. Sometimes the 
ill-effects of substances used are only seen in the long term (such as 
linseed oil ageing badly on tops and going all yellowy). It's probably 
best to ask a string maker what they use to lubricate gut and then check 
with your lutemaker that no harm will be done.


Best,

Matthew



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Lubricating string ends/bridge holes?

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Howard,

Even in relatively dry climates gut somehow manages to absorb humidity 
and swell over time.
Personally I would try to avoid lubricating the strings. Have you tried 
cutting the end at an angle to slip it through?  You could probably also 
gently sand the last 5 mm or so of the end of the string with some very 
fine emery paper without the risk of fraying or weakening.


Enlarging the bridge holes can be very straight forward with the 
appropriate tools (I can send you a photo of the tools I use if you're 
interested).


Best,

Matthew

On 29/06/2018 19:14, howard posner wrote:

I reconfigure the stringing on my archlute from time to time, which involves 
moving some extension strings so that, e.g. the 8th course becomes the 12th for 
one stringing B, then gets moved back for stringing A.

I now find that couple of gut extension strings won’t fit through bridge holes 
that they always fit through before.  I tried blow-drying the string ends, on 
the assumption that they had swelled with humidity (not a sound assumption 
where I live), without success.

So now, if I don’t want to string the whole instrument lighter, it seems I have 
two options:
widening the bridge holes or lubricating the string ends.  I’d like to try 
lubricating first.

Does anyone have experience with string lube jobs?  What do you use?



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

---
Cet email a fait l'objet d'une analyse antivirus par AVG.
http://www.avg.com

[LUTE] Re: Django

[Matthew Daillie]

Yes, Alain Veylit replaced the former with the latter. He moved on to a 
new web site and completely rebuilt the software (Fandango), which 
requires a new account and a new registration 
(http://fandango.musickshandmade.com).


You could try contacting Alain directly to see if he can help you out if 
you wish to continue using Django.


Best,
Matthew

 On 24/06/2018 12:00, Ed Durbrow wrote:

What happened to Django? Now it is Fandango and the site doesn’t recognize my 
user name.
It has been many years since I attempted to use it, but thought I would give it 
another shot.

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/









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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: London Weiss manuscript is online

[Matthew Daillie]

No, sorry, I spoke too soon. I get the error message as well using two 
different browsers and Windows 7. Haven't tried with a Mac or Unix though.


Best,

Matthew

On 20/06/2018 12:49, Markus Lutz wrote:

Dear Matthew, did that work for you?
Tim and also me tested it, and it didn't work.
But it could be possible, that they changed it already - what would be 
very good!


Best regards
Markus 





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[LUTE] Re: Dowland edition

[Matthew Daillie]

That was also the case with Minkoff; there were facsimiles 'en préparation' for 
years that never saw the light of day. I contacted the CNRS publishers some 
time ago to try to persuade them to reprint some of 'Le Luthiste' books but 
they were just not interested.
After recording his collected works of Dowland (over 20 years ago now!), Paul 
O'Dette said he was working on a new printed edition with Pat O'Brien but 
unfortunately that project has never come to fruition either. Maybe there could 
be a collective effort to help Paul complete it as all the hard work of 
visiting libraries and poring over manuscripts and comparing versions was done 
for the recording.
Best,
Matthew



> On May 19, 2018, at 10:10, Rainer  wrote:
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I never noticed before: In 1964 [sic!] CNRS announced ("En préparation dans 
> cette série:")
> 
> Œuvres complètes pour Luth seul de John Dowland
> 
> Very strange...
> 
> Rainer
> 
> PS
> 
> Almost 40 years later in January 2002 there was some discussion about a 
> possible 4th edition of Faber & Faber's Dowland which - alas - never appeared.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES

[Matthew Daillie]

OK, I understand; you don't like keyboards.

Best,
Matthew

On 12/05/2018 15:21, Ron Andrico wrote:

   Think about it.  With the lute, we have an instrument that is
simplicity itself.  Tuning pegs are within reach and frets are easily
adjustable if one has to play near wind instruments or if the weather
happens to go this way or that.  With the keyboard, we have a
relatively complicated mechanism that places keys, levers, stops,
plectra and nonsense between the player and the strings.  The
additional technological fixes like split keys only serve to complicate
matters.  When it comes time to play with other instruments, the
keyboard player invariably says, "You must tune to me because it's too
much effort to retune my keyboard."  And, from a practical standpoint,
there is the issue in a nutshell.





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[LUTE] Re: LUTE TUNING AND TEMPERAMENT IN THE SIXTEENTH AND SEVENTEENTH,CENTURIES

[Matthew Daillie]

I agree with the idea that equal temperament was probably used by lutenists in 
the 16th century but how do you come to the conclusion that keyboard 
instruments lack flexibility for tuning compared to lutes? I would have thought 
exactly the contrary. There is a tuning pin for every note and some historic 
keyboards had split sharps enabling tuning of flat and sharp notes. There is 
even evidence of enharmonic keyboards with up to 36 keys per octave (although 
I, for one, would not have wished to tune that, let alone play it).
Best,
Matthew


> On May 12, 2018, at 14:41, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> And the quotes extracted from Bottrigari only demonstrate
>   the growing prominence of keyboard instruments circa 1600, and their
>   lack of the flexibility compared with the adjustable frets of the
>   lute.



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[LUTE] Re: Left thumb on the sixth.

[Matthew Daillie]

I can't imagine using the thumb on the 6th course for that passage, it would 
mean all the other fingers being pretty inoperative and it is very 
straightforward with the middle finger on c6, the ring finger on c4, the little 
finger on d3 and the index finger on c1.

Best,

Matthew



> On Apr 28, 2018, at 8:50, "stephan.olbertz"  wrote:
> 
>   A good indicator would be this progression, which can be found in
>   Francesco for sure.
> 
>   c6 c4 d3 c1, solving to b4
> 
>   We discussed this topic maybe 15 years ago here
> 
>   Regards Stephan
> 
>   Von meinem Samsung Galaxy Smartphone gesendet.
> 



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[LUTE] Re: Ballard 1611/1612

[Matthew Daillie]

Here is what Pascale Boquet and François-Pierre Goy had to say in the 
introduction to the Fuzeau edition of the facsimile:


On Oct 16th 1611, Pierre Ballard obtained a ten-year 'privilège' to 
print his brother's works. In the absence of a title page, date of 
impression or inscription on the 'syndicat des librairies's register', 
it is generally accepted that the volume reproduced here appeared in 
that same year; however, printing delays must be taken into account 
which, according to other examples, could vary between a few weeks and 
several months. In addition, one could deduce from the dedication that 
Ballard wrote it when already employed by Marie de Médecis. These two 
elements could postpone the date of publication to early 1612.


Best,
Matthew


On 27/04/2018 22:26, Rainer wrote:

Dear lute netters,

Ballard's lute book with the year 1611 on the title page is believed 
to have been published in 1612.


I can't remember who noticed this based on which evidence published 
where.


Who does remember?

Rainer




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[LUTE] Re: Palestrina and Italian Intabulations

[Matthew Daillie]

Howard Mayer Brown lists (page 491) the works of Palestrina to be found in 
music prints between 1568 and 1599. These include Vincentio Galilei, Barbetta, 
Dalla Casa, Adriansen and Terzi. I don't think any of the pieces are 
intabulations of sacred polyphony though, which is what you were looking for.
Best,
Matthew


> On Apr 2, 2018, at 7:52, "Edward C. Yong"  wrote:
> 
> Hello collective wisdom!
> While there seems to be plenty of intabulations of sacred polyphony by
> the Spanish and Flemish composers, there doesn't seem to be many of
> Palestrina and the Roman school. I am aware of the lovely intabulations
> for two or more lutes by Thomas Höger, and those by Ron Andrico, but
> these are modern.
> Is there a reason why period ones don't seem to exist? I was playing
> the accompaniments in Andrico's editions and the pieces seem to fall
> very nicely under the hand, so I'd be surprised if nothing is out there
> from those days.
> Does anyone know of anything from back then? Or other modern
> intabulations even?
> Edward
> 
> --
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Course and Concert with Hopkinson Smith in the south of France

[Matthew Daillie]

   If you are in Europe this Spring, the Ateliers de musiques Aix-Provence
   (a non-profit organization) is putting on a solo concert featuring
   Hopkinson Smith 28 April 2018 in sunny (usually!) Aix-en-Provence,
   France. This is to be followed by three full days of master classes
   open to renaissance and baroque lutenists, guitar players and small
   ensembles of all levels. There are still seats available for the
   concert and a few spaces available for the course.

   For further information, please contact Christine Trincaud at the
   following email address:

   [1]provencea...@gmail.com

   Best,

   Matthew
   --

References

   1. mailto:provencea...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] Re: gallot

[Matthew Daillie]

On 25/03/2018 23:49, Tristan von Neumann wrote:

No coincidence, if this person is on the list.

Or is it a printed ad? 


Nothing to do with the list, a number of CNRS lute books have just been 
advertised on a French website dealing with all sorts of second-hand 
articles (the French equivalent of Gumtree).


Best,

Matthew




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[LUTE] Re: gallot

[Matthew Daillie]

On 25/03/2018 14:38, Roland Hayes wrote:

Does anyone have a Gallot works cnrs edition for sale? r
  __


Incredible coincidence, an ad for a copy here in France has just been 
posted, I'll send you a link.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: gallot

[Matthew Daillie]

   On 25/03/2018 14:38, Roland Hayes wrote:

 Does anyone have a Gallot works cnrs edition for sale? r

   You could contact Kenneth Sparr in Sweden to ask if he has any copies
   left.

   Best,

   Matthew

   kennethsparratgmail.com

   [1]http://www.tabulatura.com/TABCATNE.htm
   --

References

   1. http://www.tabulatura.com/TABCATNE.htm


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[LUTE] Re: Betrachte meine Seel

[Matthew Daillie]

I tend to read my emails in reverse chronological order in the morning. This 
can lead to a very confusing start to the day.
Best,
Matthew



> On Mar 20, 2018, at 6:46, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> If only someone had told John Lenti about this, we could have avoided a lot 
> of unnecessary cruelty to mandrills and budgies.



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[LUTE] Re: Goffriller

[Matthew Daillie]

On 16/03/2018 04:39, Edward Martin wrote:

Thanks Daniel.

Yes, I have that old LP and also the old recording of LeRoy and Paladin he did 
on that Goffriller copy.  Someone recently told me that Nico van der Waals is 
alive, living with a German Lutenist. Since Nico has never used computers, I 
shall ask that Lutenist if he/ she knows anything or could ask him.  It seems 
as though Nico van der Waals is the only person we know of who has knowledge in 
this area.

I will be seeing Amit Peled who has the Pablo Casals Goffriller cello on 
Sunday, and I want to tell him about the extant Goffriller lute, assuming there 
IS a Goffriller copy anywhere. I hope this is not a hoax, but the claim was 
years ago that Paul played his alto lute as a Goffriller copy, but nobody has 
documentation now of the existence of a Goffriller lute.

The plot thickens

Sent from my iPhone


The strange thing is that the dates don't seem right at all. The lute 
Paul O'Dette plays is a 6-course and Goffriller was active in the late 
17th and early 18th centuries. He did have a son who was a luthier but 
he would have been even less likely to make a 6-course.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Matthew Daillie]

On 15/03/2018 18:38, Ron Andrico wrote:

I'd like to draw particular attention to your pointing out that
narcissism motivates the many reactions that deride new music by those
who appear to enjoy "shooting from the lip" on just about any
lute-related topic. Spot on. Without passing judgement, it seems that
there are lute hobbyists, and there are musicians who play the lute.
The former are occupy themselves with the many interesting historical
aspects of the instrument, and the latter use that information to make
music.


I am sure that the lute world is waiting with bated breath to learn 
which group you might be in, Ron.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Matthew Daillie]

   On 15/03/2018 00:16, howard posner wrote:

 Maybe because, firstly much of the music composed for lute today is
  incredibly trite and uninteresting when set against the works of the
  great composers of the renaissance and the baroque period

Wow! You must have heard some of my stuff.


   OK, maybe I did go a bit overboard, I didn't mean it to sound that bad!

   Best,

   Matthew
   --


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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Matthew Daillie]

On 15/03/2018 01:45, Ron Andrico wrote:

  I don't usually bother to respond to your sniping noises,

There is no stature to be gained by treating the work of others with
disdain while claiming a morally superior position


Goodness Ron , those are comments that could definitely have granted you 
a valuable source of introspection. The art of projection never ceases 
to amaze me.


Gilbert Isbin's email was quite belligerent in its questioning. My post 
was a straightforward answer. I have nothing against lute players 
composing and performing their own music, I just don't wish to be 
aggressively interrogated as to why I'm not buying or playing it.


I never said that I prefer 'old music', just that I don't see much 'new' 
lute music out there to compete with the production of the great 
masters. We seem to be forgetting that the lute was THE instrument of 
its age and that many of the works which have come down to us are the 
acme of musical production.


I cannot think of a major composer today who only writes for one 
instrument. If we look at 20th century music, very often the great 
instrumentalists commissioned works from contemporary distinguished 
composers. Maybe we need one of today's top lutenists to do the same, 
just as Julian Bream commissioned Benjamin Britten to write Nocturnal 
for guitar (based on Dowland's 'Come Heavy Sleep') over 50 years ago. 
The filter of time has not yet finished its job and we do not know what 
works will survive for prosperity but we can look back at the 20th 
century and find an endless list of great composers (Bartok, Berio, 
Britten, Crumb, Dutilleux, Gubaidulina, Kurtag, Ligeti, Messiaen, 
Prokofiev, Rihm, Shnittke, Shostakovich, Stravinsky, to name but a few). 
Maybe we need a composer of their ilk to write for the lute before there 
is a real renaissance of its music.


Then there is the captivating experience of playing music which is 500 
years old and yet speaks to us directly with ineffable force and beauty. 
That fascination, in conjunction with the historical, artistic and 
musicological riches which accompany our music-making, are surely the 
main reasons why most of us took up the lute in the first place.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Some questions

[Matthew Daillie]

   Maybe because, firstly much of the music composed for lute today is
   incredibly trite and uninteresting when set against the works of the
   great composers of the renaissance and the baroque period (personally I
   feel there is so much historic repertory yet to discover that I am not
   at all interested in spending time on second-rate rehash) and secondly,
   the majority of composers writing for lute seem to be completely
   oblivious to all the developments in contemporary music which have led
   to some works of extraordinary beauty and sophistication for
   instruments and formations of all shapes and sizes, a million miles
   away from much of the insipid fodder being pushed our way.
   Best,
   Matthew
On 14/03/2018 22:33, Gilbert Isbin wrote:

Why is the lute world ruled by early music ?
   Why are 90 or 95% of the lutenists afraid to play new music for the
   lute ?
   Why did guitarists, recorder players, cellists, pianists , oud players
   etc. took the challenge to play today's music and the lute world almost
   - with a very few exeptions - doesn't ?
   Why are luteplayers afraid to play something different ?
   Why do lutenists think the lute must be played with a very specific
   approach ?
   Why are lots of lutenists looking down at lutenists who are trying to
   do something else with the instrument, with other techniques, new
   approaches?
   What is the future for the lute music if it stays to be that dogmatic ?
   I guess Dowland and all the other wonderful lutes composers would have
   a good laugh with the today's lute world approach to the instrument.


   With kind regards,

   Met vriendelijke groeten,

   Bien cordialement,
   Gilbert Isbin
   [1]www.gilbertisbin.com
   [[1]2]gilbert.is...@gmail.com

   --

References

   1. mailto:2]gilbert.is...@gmail.com


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[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

On 09/03/2018 14:06, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
A substitute would be highly welcome. I have thought about soaking 
parcel string in hide glue for frets.
Has anyone tried something that? 


Aquila have started producing nylgut frets. I haven't tried them as I am 
quite happy with gut.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

I've never had issues with single knots.
Best,
Matthew

On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed
(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier to tie
firmly, historical double fret loops





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[LUTE] Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's probably 
because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place (I am presuming 
you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them enough leeway to tighten 
properly when you pull them towards the bridge. They need almost a whole 
position to get nicely tight, so when you put the third fret on, for example, 
tighten it close to the second fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The 
first fret is generally the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, 
there is less room to manoeuvre.
Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very wet 
weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to loosen at least 
a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I live, the relative 
humidity can plummet within a few hours when the cold, dry mistral wind blows.
I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on tying 
frets.
Best,
Matthew


> On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann  wrote:
> 
> My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some time. 
> Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they become loose.



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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages said 
the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??


Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 1/4 
comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).


Best,
Matthew


On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy of a true
meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this matter of
non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
number of times before - just search the archives.  For example this
some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
  * [1]Martyn Hodgson 




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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

You are confusing two totally different things Ron and your comment is 
completely misleading.


Of course major thirds can be pure. When the corresponding harmonics of 
the two notes constituting a major third are aligned, then the interval 
is pure. This is a physical, acoustical phenomenon.


Dissonance and consonance are something else and to an extent depict a 
subjective stance. The intervals considered to be dissonant were not the 
same in different periods. In medieval music, intervals other than 
unisons, fourths, fifths and octaves were considered dissonant. Fifths 
and fourths were sung (and played) pure. Thirds and sixths were not used 
as they are today to provide harmonic texture. The thirds in Pythagorean 
tuning (which featured pure fifths except for one wolf fifth) were far 
from pure and so sounded very dissonant. In Renaissance music, thirds 
and sixths became the essential building blocks and were considered 
consonant. Dissonance required preparing and resolving the dissonant 
intervals which were not at all the same as those in medieval times.


Whether you like it or not, the choice of temperament impacts upon the 
musical result. You cannot play a lute without tuning it to a particular 
temperament. You can tune it to equal temperament if you like, and there 
is historical evidence for equal temperament having been used in the 
16th century, but hopefully it is an informed choice on your part.


We have a lot to learn from keyboard players and their various 
instruments just as they probably have a lot to learn from us. After 
all, the repertoire was clearly intertwined for several centuries. To 
dismiss temperament as 'keyboard-centric mucking around' is verging on 
obscurantism.


Best,

Matthew

- On 08/03/2018 13:38, Ron Andrico wrote:

And I will add that thirds are not and never were meant to be pure.
Octaves, fifths, and fourths are pure and thirds are dissonant.  This
is fundamental to understanding the character of early music, and
reinforced as pertains to fretting the lute by Vincenzo Galilei.  I
agree with Galilei, who was one smart fella, and all this mucking about
with temperament is really keyboard-centric.
RA





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

I fear that there is a misunderstanding here. The 'perfect' fifths you 
are checking (intervals of three tones and a semi-tone) are not 'pure' 
fifths. One cannot have pure major thirds and pure (beat-less) fifths in 
the same temperament. The fifths (and fourths) in 1/4 mean tone are 
tempered.


Best,

Matthew

On 08/03/2018 12:45, Leonard Williams wrote:

  I should have added--it seems to work quite well.  I check perfect
fifths from open to 2nd fret on the next higher string also.





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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Matthew Daillie]

Hi Leonard,

This seems to be a very convoluted and hit and miss method to me. Maybe 
it would be good to get back to basics (which is what you are doing when 
checking the major thirds between the fifth and third courses of your lute).


With 1/4 comma meantone you are looking to have 8 pure, beat-less major 
thirds (C-E, for example). These are narrower than equal temperament 
thirds which can sound pretty awful once you get used to the purity of 
major thirds. It is not always easy to hear the beats on a lute (far 
less evident than with the metal strings and clear harmonics of a 
harpsichord, for example) so it is generally advised to set the frets 
based on calculations for your string length. You can use a calculator 
such as the one provided online by Lauri Niskanen which will give you 
the distances between the nut and the various frets. All you need to do 
is enter the string length of your lute and place your frets 
accordingly. Here's the link:


https://www.niskanenlutes.com/index.php?p=frets

Once you've done that you will need to see if you require extra frets 
(tastini) for notes that would not be in tune without them (such as the 
first position F# on the 4th course of a lute in g'). Mean tone 
distinguishes between enharmonic notes, (so D# will be lower than Eb 
flat, for example) and you can't have both at the same time on the lute 
and you will need to adjust the position of certain frets according to 
the piece you are playing. Once your frets are set, I would suggest 
tuning an a' from a tuning fork or electronic tuner and then tuning the 
other courses by ear from that by using octaves. If you do not feel 
comfortable tuning by ear then use the setting on your tuner to get 1/4 
comma mean-tone with an Eb as you will be playing music in flat keys. 
The final adjustments really do need to be made by ear, however good 
your tuner and you can check the major thirds of the piece you are playing.


Hope this helps.

Best,

Matthew

can use a pr

On 08/03/2018 02:17, Leonard Williams wrote:

Here’s a tuning method I’ve been experimenting with, and I’m wondering about 
others’ related experiences.  My 8 course is nominally in g (i.e., g treble), 
1/4 comma meantone. But - since most of the music I play is in flat keys, I set 
my Peterson tuner for an instrument in F instead of C.  Thus when I tune the g, 
the readout is d, etc.  I’ve also found that using a chord consisting of fret d 
on 3rd, e on 4th, and f on fifth is helpful in refining the tuning and those 
frets.
Any similar experiences?

Best to all,
Leonard Williams





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[LUTE] Re: Travel with Easyjet

[Matthew Daillie]

On 06/03/2018 23:02, Peter Martin wrote:

Easyjet's musical instrument policy includes:
Musical instruments  are permitted for carriage as Hand Baggage
provided that the instrument, including its case, does not exceed 30cm
x 120cm x 38cm.
[1]https://www.easyjet.com/en/terms-and-conditions/music-instruments
That should cover a renaissance lute or a baroque guitar.   Has anyone
tried this recently, and does it work OK?
Peter


Hi Peter,

I have flown with EasyJet between France and the UK on countless 
occasions with lutes of all sizes, up to and including a swan-neck 
13-course (although that was several years ago and I probably wouldn't 
try my luck nowadays) and I have always been able to put them in the 
overhead lockers. I purchase Speedy Boarding (or their current 
equivalent) to make sure I am one of the first people on the plane. This 
is less expensive than an extra-seat. Travelling on a plane with an 
instrument (or somebody elses's!) is rarely enjoyable or totally 
stress-free and I have often had members of the ground staff trying to 
cause me problems but up until now (my last trip was under a year ago) 
it has always worked out.


There is a European resolution on the carriage of musical instruments on 
planes but it is rather vaguely worded, probably to let the airlines 
companies have the last say, but I have a copy of it on my smartphone to 
show any disgruntled EasyJet employee in the hope that it will be 
persuasive.


Good luck!

Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: About Euing lute book

[Matthew Daillie]

It is in the Glasgow University Library (Euing 25):

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/treasures/lute.html

Sarge Gerbode provides images of the manuscript here;

http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/GB-ge_glasgow_university_library/

and his own modern edition here:

http://www.gerbode.net/sources/GB-ge_glasgow_university_library/euing_lute_book/

Julia Craig McFeely provides info and contents here:

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/julia/ap1/Euing.htm

Best,

Matthew


> On Mar 6, 2018, at 3:21, Isaku Ogawa  wrote:
> 
>   Dear friends!   Who knows about   Euing lute book, its digital library
>   or picture?
>   Best Wishes.
>   -
>   å°å·ä¼ä½ï¼ è±å¾
>   Ogawa Isaku @ Bungo
>   -
> 
>   --
> 
> 
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