[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), It's become part of the history of research. With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theorbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten were lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes attached in the direction of the neck. If I'm not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed lutes today. To complete confusion, he added: Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, die auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on the right for the highest or lowest strings. Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated definition. My, o my. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some have tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurrent, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions of someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tuning_ is sort of coming back. Mathias On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Chris, if I were the expert to ask, I would certainly have rewritten the Wiki. What I seem to remember, though, is that the archlute is an English cousin of the arciliuto (don't have at hand related articles by Robert Spencer, Nigel North, Eckhardt Schulze-Kurz et al). Mathias chriswi...@yahoo.com schrieb: --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. What is the difference between an arciliuto and an archlute? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Although I will of course defer to my German colleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred CDs from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. You will also find from the same period that a proportion of these CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute, so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an archlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understandable, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erzlaute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are originally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklets from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also the Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rightly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be that there is a difference between the written use of the word and the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appears in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), It's become part of the history of research. With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theorbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten were lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes attached in the direction of the neck. If I'm not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed lutes today. To complete confusion, he added: Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, die auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on the right for the highest or lowest strings. Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated definition. My, o my. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some have tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurrent, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions of someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tuning_ is sort of coming back. Mathias On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Of course in history the lute terminology has changed. And of course you will find dictionaries with confused and confusing translations. And also some of us haven't a clear view on the terminology... and once even at an article of me the picture material has been changed in the last second, but not the commentary... But: It's the job of all of us to use a coherent terminology. I hope that f.ex. my book gives the correct version for the state of the art. http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/BuchLt/BuchLt.html The term double headed French lute is misleading because this type was not used in France. So I changed to double headed lute Sometimes the baroque lute with swan neck was called theorbo or German theorbo. In the today's view it's not correct because the tuning is that of a baroque lute. So we have the princip that the name says also something on the tuning. The German theorbo is in the today's view the 14-course continuo instrument with the tuning F G A B C D E F G A d f a d', described by Weiss and Baron. So the combination of German and theorbo says that it's an own tuning and not the normal theorbo tuning. Our terminology should be clear - and sometimes historical terms were not really exact in our today's sense because they had not to call all the instrument types of 300 years with an unmistakable term. Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an archlute. Where and when? Andreas Am 10.07.2009 um 10:48 schrieb David Tayler: Although I will of course defer to my German colleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred CDs from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. You will also find from the same period that a proportion of these CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute, so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an archlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understandable, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erzlaute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are originally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklets from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also the Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rightly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be that there is a difference between the written use of the word and the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appears in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), It's become part of the history of research. With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theorbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten were lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes attached in the direction of the neck. If I'm not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed lutes today. To complete confusion, he added: Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, die auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on the right for the highest or lowest strings. Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated definition. My, o my. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some have tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurrent, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions of someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tuning_ is sort of coming back. Mathias On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Dear All, Just a comment on the more general what is an archlute? question, in terms of the surviving instruments and music: Robert Spencer's article (1976) distinguished between the liuto attiorbato and what I tend to call the continuo archlute. The liuto attiorbato seems to have been especially popular in Venice in the 1630s and 40s and large numbers of them survive from the Sellas workshop. They usually have 14 courses, all double, and string lengths of about 58/85 or 64/93 (two sizes a tone apart). I assume these are essentially solo instruments. This is the instrument I associate with the music of Piccinini and Melii. The continuo archlutes appear later, 1660s-70s, and they are mostly converted lutes with string lengths of about 67cm (double courses) and single basses of about 145cm. I think Lynda Sayce has suggested that these instruments were something of a Roman phenomenon, and indeed a low Roman pitch would make sense of the size of these instruments - if they are nominally in G we must be talking about a pitch at least a tone below modern. In modern times we have all kinds of hybrid instruments, small single-strung liuti attiorbati, etc., and a tendency to play at a'=440 or a'=415, neither of which are really practical for continuo archlutes. I think it is a pity to string any of these instruments with wire-wound strings, since the design, with the extended basses, was obviously intended to enhance the sound of gut strings. I suppose the problem for the modern continuo player is that there are no modern orchestras which play at a suitably low pitch. When I hear the single-strung, wire-wound, small archlute I wonder why pretend it is a historical instrument? The electric guitar is very versatile, you can play at any volume you want, seems like a good idea to me - oh, I forgot, it's not lute-shaped. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
I think that is all very carefully thought out, but from the broader view, the problem is that there is no absolute agreement either historically or at present, there are only degrees of agreement. For example, the term theorbo had a wider definition in the past than in the present. However, not everyone agrees today, either. All musical instruments have contextual layers of definitions. So for example, the word lute has a kind of classification meaning, then special meanings based on context. And so it is with the theorbo. In its widest sense, the theorbo simply means a lute based on either a bass lute or a renaissance lute with an extended neck. However, even as I write this, I know that there are those who will of course disagree. Interestingly, the result of narrowing the definition of theorbo has had the absolute effect of reducing the number and types of theorbos that are played today--far fewer than the types available in the baroque. So one can argue that an overly precise definition results in a loss of diversity in performance--so it is not always a good thing. There were around twelve types of theorbo historically, many of those have now disappeared, as the terms have been conflated--killed by musicology, essentially. Not only that, but the Chitarrone has disappeared completely--in the narrow sense of a Bass lute tuned up a fourth-- that was brilliantly conjectured in the Harwood et alia article (which is of course online) due do the subsequent conflation of the term with theorbo. One point that you make concerning the tuning: I don't believe that it is possible to determine the tuning of an original instrument--for one thing, there were many tunings and many pitches. So no definition can be based on the tuning that I can see, at least with today's knowledge. Lastly, I must addd that even though the modern references are in agreement about the erzlaute, it is not always the case that the standard references are correct. For example, Marco Uccellini was born in 1610, yet all the CDs, dictionaries and articles state 1603 based on an erroneous and uncited source (probably MGG). More close to the lute world, the vast majority of books give the Etymology fo Lute as Arabic for wood but this is also incorrect as the early writers consulted modern Arabic dictionaries instead of medieval ones. A difficult thing, to define an instrument. dt At 02:23 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Of course in history the lute terminology has changed. And of course you will find dictionaries with confused and confusing translations. And also some of us haven't a clear view on the terminology... and once even at an article of me the picture material has been changed in the last second, but not the commentary... But: It's the job of all of us to use a coherent terminology. I hope that f.ex. my book gives the correct version for the state of the art. [1]http://www.accordsnouveaux.ch/de/Instrumente/BuchLt/BuchLt.html The term double headed French lute is misleading because this type was not used in France. So I changed to double headed lute Sometimes the baroque lute with swan neck was called theorbo or German theorbo. In the today's view it's not correct because the tuning is that of a baroque lute. So we have the princip that the name says also something on the tuning. The German theorbo is in the today's view the 14-course continuo instrument with the tuning F G A B C D E F G A d f a d', described by Weiss and Baron. So the combination of German and theorbo says that it's an own tuning and not the normal theorbo tuning. Our terminology should be clear - and sometimes historical terms were not really exact in our today's sense because they had not to call all the instrument types of 300 years with an unmistakable term. Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an archlute. Where and when? Andreas Am 10.07.2009 um 10:48 schrieb David Tayler: Although I will of course defer to my German colleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred CDs from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. You will also find from the same period that a proportion of these CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute, so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. Historically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an archlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understandable, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erzlaute as a
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
The problem here is that single stringing is historical, lutes, theorbos, archlutes and even baroque guitars--it was just less frequent or even rare. I don't see a difference historically between attiorbato and theorbo, but perhaps there is one, it seems a modern distinction. If there is an historical basis I would be very interested to see it. I cannot *disprove* that liuto attiorbato means theorbo lute either. The large archlutes could be archlutes, continuo archlutes, or they could be small theorbos, or even some instrument in a different tuning altogether. However, it would be difficult to say it is too big to play as a solo instrument considering the solo repertory for the theorbo. Lastly, I would have to consult my books but I don't think that there were only two sizes of archlute, and again, the surviving instrument have two things in common--they have usually been modified and they are usually different for the others. The diversity of the surviving instruments is blurred and obscured by the selective recatagorizations of articles attempting to define them. dt t 02:44 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Dear All, Just a comment on the more general what is an archlute? question, in terms of the surviving instruments and music: Robert Spencer's article (1976) distinguished between the liuto attiorbato and what I tend to call the continuo archlute. The liuto attiorbato seems to have been especially popular in Venice in the 1630s and 40s and large numbers of them survive from the Sellas workshop. They usually have 14 courses, all double, and string lengths of about 58/85 or 64/93 (two sizes a tone apart). I assume these are essentially solo instruments. This is the instrument I associate with the music of Piccinini and Melii. The continuo archlutes appear later, 1660s-70s, and they are mostly converted lutes with string lengths of about 67cm (double courses) and single basses of about 145cm. I think Lynda Sayce has suggested that these instruments were something of a Roman phenomenon, and indeed a low Roman pitch would make sense of the size of these instruments - if they are nominally in G we must be talking about a pitch at least a tone below modern. In modern times we have all kinds of hybrid instruments, small single-strung liuti attiorbati, etc., and a tendency to play at a'=440 or a'=415, neither of which are really practical for continuo archlutes. I think it is a pity to string any of these instruments with wire-wound strings, since the design, with the extended basses, was obviously intended to enhance the sound of gut strings. I suppose the problem for the modern continuo player is that there are no modern orchestras which play at a suitably low pitch. When I hear the single-strung, wire-wound, small archlute I wonder why pretend it is a historical instrument? The electric guitar is very versatile, you can play at any volume you want, seems like a good idea to me - oh, I forgot, it's not lute-shaped. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
g= t; The term double headed French lute is misleading because this type was not used in France. So I changed to double headed lute Which will hopefully prevail! Terms may refer to a) building, or b) tun= ing, at its best to both. Double headed lute refers to building, solely, wh= ich is correct because double headed lutes came with varying numbers of cou= rses and several different tunings. Sometimes the baroque l= ute with swan neck was called theorbo or German theorbo. In t= he today's view it's not correct because the tuning is that of a = baroque lute. So we have the princip that the name says also some= thing on the tuning. But swan-necks will pass as theorboed lutes= , no? The German theorbo is in the today's view the 14-c= ourse continuo instrument with the tuning F G A B C D E F G A d f= a d', described by Weiss and Baron. So the combination of German= and theorbo says that it's an own tuning and not the normal theo= rbo tuning. Merely conventional, and bad, IMHO, as German= refers neither to building nor to tuning. I don't know a better name, I mu= st admit. *clenches teeth* Baron called it Theorbe (theorbo). For him= , that would do. Why not for us? Theorbo is a generic term anyway. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Pe= rhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English archlute= , but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call theorboed lutes by = Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name. Will look it up when I'm= back home tonight. As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, l= iuto attiorbato, archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know w= ill call their instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute. Respectfully, too, Mathias -Original-Nac= hricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal= .net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= ; Although I will of course defer to my German co= lleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. = You will also find from the same period that a proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an a= rchlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often = gt; are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understand= able, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. = gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be = that there is a difference between the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: = ; That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), = br / It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck. If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed l= utes today. To complete confusion, he added:= Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings. = ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated = definition. My, o my. = the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. = It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some ha= ve tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort of coming back. = ; Mathias On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote: = gt; And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as = ;sweeping IMHO, neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto a= nd the archlute. Someone= put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias = Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: g= t; David, Than= ks for that. B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the = latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely = not qualified to comment on that, but would love t= o read other's -- just to remind it's still = untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple ?? = J g= t; _ = On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler w= rote
[LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
g= t; In its widest sense, the theorbo simply means a lute based on either a bass lute or a renaissance lute with an extended neck. However, ev= en as I write this, I know that there are those who will of cours= e disagree. I wonder who would disagree, as this simpl= y is the widest possible definition. Theorbo =3D lute with extended neck. were around twelve types of theorbo historically, many of th= ose have Twelve types of use of the name, you meant to say, I ta= ke it? One point that you make concerning the tuning: I don= 't believe that it is possible to determine the tuning of an orig= inal instrument--for one thing, there were many tunings and many = pitches. Hm... what about a Tieffenbrucker 7c (IIRC) with 44cm v= ibrating string length? 6c Hieber 58 cm? 14c Sellas 65cm (fretboard)? You c= an come close to plausible guesses for relative tunings, at least. Lastly, I must addd that even though the modern references are in agreement about the erzlaute, I'm sorry? g= t; Etymology fo Lute as Arabic for wood but this is also incorrect as the early writers consulted modern Arabic dictionaries instead of medieval ones. What's wrong with that? 'oud means wood, = even in Qur'anic Arabic. The actual question was whether wood referred to t= he building material of the Oud or to the material of the mizrab (plectrum)= . Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Jerzy Zakjurek...@gmail.com wrote: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single stringing is historical ;-))) As is playing from empty scores. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
There are rumors out there that Adamo's lute is an angelique in Bourgete's tuning. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On 2009-07-10, at 14:09, David van Ooijen wrote: On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Jerzy Zakjurek...@gmail.com wrote: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single stringing is historical ;-))) As is playing from empty scores. ;-) David That's right! I know one wired gamba player and composer(!) who once has done a fantastic performance, as if reading from a score. After the concert we've seen the score… and that was the best part J ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
That's right! I know one wired gamba player and composer(!) who once has done a fantastic performance, as if reading from a score. After the concert we've seen the score… and that was the best part Years ago I had a concert including a piece where I had to play a duet with a koto player. We didn't have time to rehearse this one piece, other music involved me playing shamisen and singing - both much more scary than playing lute. I was given the koto part (a kind of tablature) and I studied it the night before, writing a lute part to it. During the run through on the concert location it turned out I had completely misunderstood the koto tuning. I threw away my lute part and improvised a second part to the koto in the concert. It was recorded for TV, and the producer of the programme called us next day to ask what we had played, he wanted to know more about it as it was so nice. :-) David - had his music filmed for TV during the break of one of the concerts last week; what's there to see? -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
I meant Burguete's tuning. RT - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute There are rumors out there that Adamo's lute is an angelique in Bourgete's tuning. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On Jul 10, 2009, at 5:01 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? I suspect the apparent single-stringing has more to do with the trouble it would be for the engraver to render pairs of strings, and his lack confidence that the ink wouldn't bleed to the point where two strings would look like one big one. But I really don't know. Perhaps Roman has a more informed view. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player. Look at the 6-line staves, with all its unevennesses and shades, and many other detailes… It's obvious, Falckenhagen was a man of his time… (you can develope it however you like). His own music has nothing to do with Weiss or JSBach, which he probably transcribed, perhaps in his Leipzig school years. It is the time of the Mannheim school, Leopold Mozart and so on. Consider the articulation resources of the time needed or indispensable. Etc… I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-) J _ On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote: The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side. It sure looks like an angelique to me. RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player… I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-) J _ But I can easily imagine Falckenhagen playing Weiss on his instrument. By the way, is somewhere in image of that Straube's lute which Geinsborough(?spelling) bought from him in London? J On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote: The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side. It sure looks like an angelique to me. RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name. Will look it up when I'm back home tonight. As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto attiorbato, archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call their instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute. Respectfully, too, Mathias -Original-Nac= hricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal= .net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= ; Although I will of course defer to my German co= lleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. = You will also find from the same period that a proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an a= rchlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often = gt; are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understand= able, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. = gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be = that there is a difference between the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: = ; That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), = br / It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck. If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed l= utes today. To complete confusion, he added:= Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings. = ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated = definition. My, o my. = the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. = It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some ha= ve tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort of coming back. = ; Mathias On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote: = gt; And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as = ;sweeping IMHO, neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto a= nd the archlute. Someone= put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias = Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: g= t; David, Than= ks for that. B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the = latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely = not qualified to comment on that, but would love t= o read other's -- just to remind it's still = untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple ?? = J g= t
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
In its widest sense, the theorbo simply means a lute based on either a bass lute or a renaissance lute with an extended neck. However, even as I write this, I know that there are those who will of course disagree. I wonder who would disagree, as this simpl= y is the widest possible definition. Theorbo lute with extended neck. were around twelve types of theorbo historically, many of those have Twelve types of use of the name, you meant to say, I take it? One point that you make concerning the tuning: I don't believe that it is possible to determine the tuning of an original instrument--for one thing, there were many tunings and many pitches. Hm... what about a Tieffenbrucker 7c (IIRC) with 44cm vibrating string length? 6c Hieber 58 cm? 14c Sellas 65cm (fretboard)? You can come close to plausible guesses for relative tunings, at least. Lastly, I must addd that even though the modern references are in agreement about the erzlaute, I'm sorry? Etymology fo Lute as Arabic for wood but this is also incorrect as the early writers consulted modern Arabic dictionaries instead of medieval ones. What's wrong with that? 'oud means wood, = even in Qur'anic Arabic. The actual question was whether wood referred to t= he building material of the Oud or to the material of the mizrab (plectrum). Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
What is an Erzlaute? Obviously (after all the we've been going through here) it's a misprint for Schmerzlaute - as anyone who has tried to string, tune, play, define, transport, and then repair one of these things can attest. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German, but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute. Mat Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name. Will look it up when I'm back home tonight. As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto attiorbato, archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call their instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute. Respectfully, too, Mathias -Original-Nac= hricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal= .net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= ; Although I will of course defer to my German co= lleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. = You will also find from the same period that a proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an a= rchlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often = gt; are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understand= able, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. = gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be = that there is a difference between the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: = ; That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), = br / It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck. If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed l= utes today. To complete confusion, he added:= Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings. = ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated = definition. My, o my. = the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. = It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some ha= ve tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort of coming back. = ; Mathias On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote: = gt; And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as = ;sweeping IMHO, neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto a= nd the archlute. Someone= put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias = Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: g= t; David, Than= ks for that. B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
But who invented the re-entrant? J On 2009-07-10, at 18:26, Mathias Rösel wrote: Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German, but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute. Mat Perhaps, it's a matter of dictionaries, indeed. Not sure for English archlute, but Erzlaute was defined to mean what we'd today call theorboed lutes by Sachs. Seem to remember he even invented the name. Will look it up when I'm back home tonight. As for booklets, Erzlaute isn't very frequen= tly mentioned at all because there aren't many recordings with arciliuto, liuto attiorbato, archlute available over here. All theorbo players I know will call their instrument Theorbe or Chitarrone, certainly not Erzlaute. Respectfully, too, Mathias -Original-Nac= hricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute Datum: Fri, 10= Jul 2009 10:48:38 +0200 Von: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal= .net An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu= ; Although I will of course defer to my German co= lleagues in matters of native language, I have used the term for = 35 years in Germany with no problems. If you take a few hundred C= Ds from the last thirty years you will find that the term is usually used for archlute. Not always, but very frequently. = You will also find from the same period that a proportion of the= se CDs also conflates the terms theorbo, chitarrone, and archlute= , so there can't be a definite meaning for the terms. H= istorically, of course, the term theorbo could also refer to an a= rchlute. Naturally, the CDs could be wrong, and they often = gt; are in the disposition of the instruments. This is understand= able, however, since many unabridged German dictionaries give Erz= laute as a synonym for Bogenlaute (which is rarely used) and translate it as archlute, not theorbo. For CDs that are ori= ginally in English or French those who rely on these dictionaries= for CD notes and translations thus keep the term current. = gt; In addition, musicological papers as well as Festival booklet= s from major festivals use not only these dictionaries but also t= he Grove Dictionary as well, and the Grove defines, rig= htly of wrongly, erzlaute as archlute. So it could be = that there is a difference between the written use of the word an= d the spoken use of the word, but of course the word mainly appea= rs in printed material. Respectfully, dt At 01:16 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: = ; That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), = br / It's become part of the history of research.= With Pohlmann (ch. 7), Theorbenlaute was synonymous to theo= rbierte Laute. According to his definition, Theorbenlauten w= ere lutes with first pegboxes bent back and second pegboxes = attached in the direction of the neck. If I'= m not mistaken, that's rather what we'd call double-headed l= utes today. To complete confusion, he added:= Theorbierte Lauten werden auch Knickhalslauten genannt, di= e auf dem Wirbelkasten links und/oder rechts Aufsaetze fuer = die hoechsten und tiefsten Saiten haben. Theorbierte Lauten= are also called Knickhalslauten (lutes with bent-back necks= ), which have riders on their pegboxes on the left and(or on= the right for the highest or lowest strings. = ; Back then, I stood in awe, completely puzzled by this sophisticated = definition. My, o my. = the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. = It hasn't been appropiately translated to German, either. Some ha= ve tried ruecklaeufig (downward, falling, katabatic, recurre= nt, retrogressive), but in German that term evokes notions o= f someone running back, and doesn't make clear that the _tun= ing_ is sort of coming back. = ; Mathias On 2009-07-09= , at 22:14, Mathias Roesel wrote: = gt; And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as = ;sweeping IMHO, neglecting differe= nces between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto a= nd the archlute. Someone= put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The G= erman term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias = Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: g= t; David, Than= ks for that. B= esides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the = latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely = not qualified to comment on that, but would love t= o read other's -- just to remind it's still = untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lu= te exemple ?? = J g= t; _ = On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler w= rote: Arc= hlute dt = gt; At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? = The other instruments pecified on the page are o= rgan, harpsichord, violins
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Setting aside the iconography, which it would be impossible to dismiss as being inaccurate in any case in all instances, as a practical matter it difficult to imagine an historical context in which theorbos were singe and double strung and archlutes invariably double strung. Since it is impossible to tell the tuning from the instrument, it is more likely that there was crossover in tuning and playing techniques. Similarly, it is impossible to rule out that players then single strung their double strung instruments from time to time, just as we do now. Also, an examination of the original instruments rules out a definitive stringing pattern--there are wide variations in the stringing, making the single-double concept a false dichotomy. Lastly, it is not just renaissance and early baroque lutes that are occasionally single strung. As more and more information becomes easily cross referenced on the Internet, we see more of the diversity and less of the modern, artificial categories. Lutes, mandoras, guitars, archlutes and theorbos all show evidence of single stringing. BUT, these were the exceptions, not the rule. What we first need is an online and complete inventory of every single original theorbo, chitarrone, archlute etc. No progress can be made until this is done. The holes need to be measured as well. On a more basic level, modern theorbos are almost invariably single strung, yet the majority of original instruments are double strung. We just give the theorbos a pass. There is a basic musicological problem with the way these instruments are defined, and that problem actually affects modern performance practice. That is an issue worth revisiting. In musicology, twenty years is a long time. Articles are expected to be revised and updated pretty much without exception. The Spencer et alia http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/ Is seriously brilliant, but also seriously flawed in its hybrid methodology. It never set out a comprehensive, uniform principle for defining the instruments. I would argue, and I think it is a serious point, that by slightly oversimplifying the number of categories and simultaneously creating new ones, that we have obscured the variety and detail of the original instruments. Indeed, all research in the Chitarrone was stopped in its tracks. I am now playing a Chitarrone reconstruction-- no long neck, a bass lute tuned up a fourth in reentrant tuning, and find it very fine indeed for the first decade of the seventeenth century. And the idea for this instrument is buried in the Spencer article, Kudos! But it is time to revise our perception of these instruments--brilliant in its day, the old model simply does not work anymore. dt At 08:34 AM 7/10/2009, you wrote: Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player=85 I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-) J _ But I can easily imagine Falckenhagen playing Weiss on his instrument. By the way, is somewhere in image of that Straube's lute which =20 Geinsborough(?spelling) bought from him in London? J On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote: The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut =20 in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side. It sure looks like an angelique to me. RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo=B4s Lute there will be some more than = =20 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to =20 florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and =20 establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely =20= in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, =20 his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla =20 bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. =20 Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Mathias wrote... Okay, found it out. The term was invented in the 20th century. No Erzlaute in Grimm's dictionary. The term may sound ancient in German, but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute. Ersatzlaute perhaps? Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Ron Fletcher ron.fletc...@ntlworld.com schrieb: but in fact it is an artificial term, created in order to categorize types of lutes. I'd say, forget Erzlaute. Ersatzlaute perhaps? Ron (UK) Just as good as 42. So, yes, probably certainly 8) -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Surely the contraption implied was the ever so popular Schwanzenklavier, also revered by John Noland and Sylvius Leopold Schweiss. :-) Op 10 jul 2009, om 00:03 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy, especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Anyway, legend it has that the Right Honourable Dr. John Noland took part in a performance of the justly famous Ben Webster play: The Honest Whore in which he took the Schwanzenklavier to the utter limits of its possibilities. Cheers! Lex Op 10 jul 2009, om 00:33 heeft Roman Turovsky het volgende geschreven: And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy, especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Quite possible!, must find some recordings, seriously. … OK, just recent historical music ;)) J On 2009-07-10, at 00:33, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy, especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
