RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Not only is the economic model I described a valid concept, it even has a name. See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader This one is also applicable, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_business_model You are perfectly correct to state that a competitive free market won't sustain subsidised pricing of a standalone product. A DSLR in a legacy mount would be just such a standalone product, so would need to be sold at its full value. It would seem overpriced compared to a similar camera with a modern lens mount, whose lens sales combined with the camera sales create the marketing models referred to in the articles above. As well, the fact that there is a zero supply of m42 DSLRs could be indicative of the demand for them. A question for you. If there was to be an m42 DSLR, what iteration of the universal screw mount should it follow? Pentax ES and ES-II mounts were not the universal variation, nor was the version by Fujica among others. The final electric mount by Praktica was perhaps the technically superior system and would be a better basis for an on-going system. The 42mm thread and the aperture actuating plate were just about the only universal aspect of the mount, while many manufacturers had different approaches to aperture indexing and sensing. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an m42 DSLR. I'm saying that one is not likely to happen. Even if it did happen there is no certainty that it would function any better than a k-mount DSLR with an m42 adapter. It may be quicker to have Cotty make you a Frankencam out of a spare Spotmatic and something modern, digital and expendable. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Friday, 23 February 2007 2:52 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ hi, I dont agree with your economic model of DSLR pricing even on todays available models so I certainly dont agree that the M42 DSLR cannot be economically unfeasable forever becuase there would be no lenses sold to subsidize the price of the body. That is not even the case now, pricing of anything in the long run is always driven by the market, i.e. supply and demand, ( right now there is zero supply of m42 DSLRS), and I dont believe subsidized pricing of stand alone items can be sustained in a competitive free market. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I would have said that the Epson RD-1 is a cheaply made camera at a premium price, and is apparently not subsidised. The Voigtlandters have lens sales to bolster them, and while priced well below the Leicas they emulate, are still pricey for cameras derived from an old, cheap SLR design. Anyway, marketing rules hardly apply in the case of Leica mount cameras, as Leica customers are not rational shoppers. They think with their hearts and not their heads when they buy cameras. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, 23 February 2007 2:13 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I guess I didnt make my point clear enough earlier, I never said that that kind of economic model does not exist for some system products, it's just that I dont believe that todays or future DSLRS, especially anything above very bottom line entry level models, are being sold on a loss leader economic model. It is not the same as razors and blades because obviously lenses, unlike razor blades last for decades, and a person buying a DSLR doesnt necessisarily have to buy any lenses when he buys that DSLR so the camera mfgrs cannot afford to or assume they will make up losses on future lens sales like a razor company can on blades. Secondly, I DID make it very clear in an earlier post, the only M42 (or at least the first M42) DSLR camera that I could see being viable would be a universal screwmount version that supports the auto aperture pin on the rear of all auto aperture M42 lenses ( this WAS a universal M42 lens feature and is on the vast majority of all M42 lenses) and NO open aperture metering ( this WAS NOT a universal feature and was implemented many different proprietary ways on only a small portion of M42 lenses). Metering could be done exactly the same way GB is now being done with K/M lenses on the current Pentax DSLR bodies, which is stop down one shot metering. Continuous stop down AE would also be possible, the same as it is on Pentax DSLRS when using a M42 adapter. Both of these would be possible with ALL M42 lenses which is the key thing to make a M42 DSLR become possible. I dont believe the implementation of open aperture metering and AE would ever happen unless the first generation M42 DSLR without them was very sucessful. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:27 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Not only is the economic model I described a valid concept, it even has a name. See, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader This one is also applicable, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razor_and_blades_business_model You are perfectly correct to state that a competitive free market won't sustain subsidised pricing of a standalone product. A DSLR in a legacy mount would be just such a standalone product, so would need to be sold at its full value. It would seem overpriced compared to a similar camera with a modern lens mount, whose lens sales combined with the camera sales create the marketing models referred to in the articles above. As well, the fact that there is a zero supply of m42 DSLRs could be indicative of the demand for them. A question for you. If there was to be an m42 DSLR, what iteration of the universal screw mount should it follow? Pentax ES and ES-II mounts were not the universal variation, nor was the version by Fujica among others. The final electric mount by Praktica was perhaps the technically superior system and would be a better basis for an on-going system. The 42mm thread and the aperture actuating plate were just about the only universal aspect of the mount, while many manufacturers had different approaches to aperture indexing and sensing. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an m42 DSLR. I'm saying that one is not likely to happen. Even if it did happen there is no certainty that it would function any better than a k-mount DSLR with an m42 adapter. It may be quicker to have Cotty make you a Frankencam out of a spare Spotmatic and something modern, digital and expendable. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Friday, 23 February 2007 2:52 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ hi, I dont agree with your economic model of DSLR pricing even on todays available models so I certainly dont agree that the M42 DSLR cannot be economically unfeasable forever becuase there would be no lenses sold to subsidize the price of the body. That is not even the case now, pricing of anything in the long run is always driven by the market, i.e. supply and demand, ( right now there is zero supply of m42 DSLRS), and I dont believe subsidized pricing of stand alone items can be sustained in a competitive free market. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Heart or Head matters not, to the vendors, because the cash is still green. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:45 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I would have said that the Epson RD-1 is a cheaply made camera at a premium price, and is apparently not subsidised. The Voigtlandters have lens sales to bolster them, and while priced well below the Leicas they emulate, are still pricey for cameras derived from an old, cheap SLR design. Anyway, marketing rules hardly apply in the case of Leica mount cameras, as Leica customers are not rational shoppers. They think with their hearts and not their heads when they buy cameras. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Friday, 23 February 2007 2:13 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:47 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ If the camera was the only source of profit, it would need to be so expensive that customers will stay away in droves. Of course a single rich-as-f**k customer could bankroll the whole project, like the recent Zeiss lens which was made bespoke for an oil-rich Arab prince. IIRC it was a 1600mm f2.8 for 6x6cm, and weighed in at over 600kg. Regrettably I lost the link when a virus crashed my OS last week, but you get the idea, I'm sure. Money opens doors and makes stuff happen.. so do you have the funds? regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ no, you dont get it, the only reason why a M42 dslr will be produced is if there is sufficient demand for it and it alone and a profit to be made on it alone as it is. I do not believe lens sales are necessary for that situation to occur. I also dont beleive all DSLR cameras are now or/will always be free razors sold at cost just to sell blades (lenses). An M42 DSLR would be a speciality item specifically for people who only want to buy the new body, cost will be higher, yes, but not necessarily economically unfeasable forever which is what you are implying here. jco -Original Message- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Cory Papenfuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/22 Thu AM 12:41:53 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Commenting on your own opinion is rather Napoleonic, even for PDML. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
specifically for people who only want to buy the new body, cost will be higher, yes, but not necessarily economically unfeasable forever which is what you are implying here. jco Actually, it's what everyone *except* you are implying including the folks who could actually build one of these things. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Commenting on your own opinion is rather Napoleonic, even for PDML. Err... PEBKAC. I wasn't commenting on my own opinions... just that I wanted to express my opinions on the then-topic of Sony. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ You're not listening. Get used to it. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. Anthony Farr wrote: Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: P. J. Alling Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. Both are made by companies (Espon Seiko, Cosina), which can afford to make a couple of nice things that don't turn a profit. My understanding is that the Bessa is pretty much the Cosina SLR with the SLR bits removed. An M42 DSLR would have to fit the same pattern, which is a product made by a company that doesn't care if they make money on it. Buy an M42 adaptor Krazy Glue it to a K100, it's as close to a dedicated M42 DSLR as you are likely to get. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I guess you dont understand the word forever, and cant argue a topic on the topic instead of resorting to the old everyone else disagreed with you so you have got to be mistaken argument which isnt an argument when all those other posts were handily rebutted. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:22 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ specifically for people who only want to buy the new body, cost will be higher, yes, but not necessarily economically unfeasable forever which is what you are implying here. jco Actually, it's what everyone *except* you are implying including the folks who could actually build one of these things. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
hi, I dont agree with your economic model of DSLR pricing even on todays available models so I certainly dont agree that the M42 DSLR cannot be economically unfeasable forever becuase there would be no lenses sold to subsidize the price of the body. That is not even the case now, pricing of anything in the long run is always driven by the market, i.e. supply and demand, ( right now there is zero supply of m42 DSLRS), and I dont believe subsidized pricing of stand alone items can be sustained in a competitive free market. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 9:50 AM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Note that Cosina is making a killing selling LTM and M mount lenses that are almost as good as the Leica's for 1/5th the price, and selling these to a lot of Leica users (Cosina makes the only available 15mm and 12mm lenses for RF's as well). They certainly are subsidizing the bodies with the lenses (And it helps that there was little engineering required for the bodies, really just designing a good rangefinder system) -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. Anthony Farr wrote: Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
hi, what evidence is there to support your theory that the bodies are being subsidized with lens sales profits? If they are selling a lot of theses lenses to Leica users, why would they even need to offer a body to sell them, let alone sell the bodies at a loss by subsidizing them? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 1:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Note that Cosina is making a killing selling LTM and M mount lenses that are almost as good as the Leica's for 1/5th the price, and selling these to a lot of Leica users (Cosina makes the only available 15mm and 12mm lenses for RF's as well). They certainly are subsidizing the bodies with the lenses (And it helps that there was little engineering required for the bodies, really just designing a good rangefinder system) -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. Anthony Farr wrote: Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I used the Cosina Voigtlander 70/2.8 on my old screwmount Leica. Very nice lens. I paid $250 for it in LN condition and sold it for $270 when I had to raise money for D number two. Paul On Feb 22, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Adam Maas wrote: Note that Cosina is making a killing selling LTM and M mount lenses that are almost as good as the Leica's for 1/5th the price, and selling these to a lot of Leica users (Cosina makes the only available 15mm and 12mm lenses for RF's as well). They certainly are subsidizing the bodies with the lenses (And it helps that there was little engineering required for the bodies, really just designing a good rangefinder system) -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: I doubt that was the case of the Epson RD-1, or any Voightlander Bessa film model for that matter as they were aimed directly at the existing Leica s and l lens base. I doubt that Cosina doesn't at least break even, (cover RD, all manufacturing costs and return on investment), on every unit sold. They have to or they wouldn't stay in business for long. Anthony Farr wrote: Actually, what I was trying to say is that the price of DSLRs is not the real, standalone price of a unique product. It is a subsidised price, where the manufacturer will accept a reduced profit or even a loss in order to tap the more lucrative lens sales that should ensue, or to deny a sale to a rival. If you propose a product that quarantines the manufacturer from his extended income, and he sees that he cannot hope to sell enough cameras at the real, unsubsidised price to break even, then he won't bother at all to bring it to market. The only way to circumvent this situation is to emulate the Arabian prince, and privately fund the project up front with no profit motive attached. The maker could, probably would still decline the commission as it would not enhance his position in his chosen marketplace. Personally, I've always liked modular cameras, and would jump at the multi-platform camera described elsewhere in this thread. But that faces the same hurdle as a dedicated M42 DSLR. I don't believe any maker wants to assist their own customers to purchase lucrative accessories from a competitor. Regards, Anthony Farr -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. C. O'Connell Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2007 7:39 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I dont agree that a M42 DSLR based on licensed existing DSLR body and just modified to do M42 auto apeture would be very expensive to develop or produce. And it certainly would be nothing like the cost of a one-off exotic lens if thats what your trying to say. jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 12:41:27 GMT To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ An M42 DSLR would not be old technology would it? The whole purpose of one would be to use the millions of quality M42 lenses in existance with the highest degree of technology possible with those lenses. I dont think that any new M42 lenses need to be produced, or that AF or lack of it, really matters whatsoever. Its to utilize the old manual focus M42 lensess already in existance. I do think it will happen eventually, because eventually the entire 35mm and smaller SLR formats will be nearly all digital and there are just way too many good auto aperture M42 lenses to ignore forever. The possibility is probably negligible until the technology has matured into something that is as good as 35mm in all respects. As it stands, you can make a passable print and view good images onscreen. Once projection capabilities and some of the lost subtleties and capabilities of film are dealt with, it might be worth making an M42DSLR because you can capture the largest share of a small market. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. I like the idea of K-mount digital range finder much better ;-). I don't think modular appears in vocabulary of any camera manufacturer unless we're talking medium format and bigger... Just my cents. -- Boris -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I'm sure that Cosina is already working on it. I don;t expect the modules to be user, replaceable, but a factory modification. If they were user replaceable you'd destroy the camera industry... mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Pentax already did that... http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/pentaxdigitalcameras/ Boris Liberman wrote: On 2/21/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. I like the idea of K-mount digital range finder much better ;-). I don't think modular appears in vocabulary of any camera manufacturer unless we're talking medium format and bigger... Just my cents. -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
J. C. O'Connell wrote: Actually not really, I was correct but I didnt state PENTAX manual focusl lenses new but the original post DID state why not buy PENTAX AF lenses. Of course you can a lot of manual focus lenses in general, but not from PENTAX you cant for their DSLRs. Yes you can. According to Pentax's website the SMCP-A 300/2.8 is available and is also listed on BH. Same with the A 50 1.2. Pentax lists others but these don't appear to be available in stores. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
You're right. It would be a niche camera for screwmount owners. But it's nothing to get worked up about. You must be new here ;-) -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 12:27:47 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On 2/21/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. I like the idea of K-mount digital range finder much better ;-). I don't think modular appears in vocabulary of any camera manufacturer unless we're talking medium format and bigger... Just my cents. Doesn't one of the top end Nikons have an interchangeable viewfinder? That's about as modular as you need these days. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 12:50:48 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I'm sure that Cosina is already working on it. I don;t expect the modules to be user, replaceable, but a factory modification. If they were user replaceable you'd destroy the camera industry... You don't think the destruction is already in progress? mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
-- Original message -- From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't think the destruction is already in progress? I believe SLR sales are at an all-time high. That's do of course to the transition to digital, but it certainly doesn't spell doom. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
And what's more, it's due to the transition to digital. My brain will now return to its disengaged, comatose state. Paul -- Original message -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Original message -- From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't think the destruction is already in progress? I believe SLR sales are at an all-time high. That's do of course to the transition to digital, but it certainly doesn't spell doom. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Yes, but I was being Ironic. mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 12:50:48 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I'm sure that Cosina is already working on it. I don;t expect the modules to be user, replaceable, but a factory modification. If they were user replaceable you'd destroy the camera industry... You don't think the destruction is already in progress? mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:27 AM, Boris Liberman wrote: I like the idea of K-mount digital range finder much better ;-). I don't think modular appears in vocabulary of any camera manufacturer unless we're talking medium format and bigger... Rollei tried a modular 35mm SLR some years back. It was a nice little camera but not terribly successful. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:55 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/ pentaxdigitalcameras/ I'd like something like that, with a sensor related to the one in the Sony R1. It would be a great way to have a compact and keep using my Pentax lenses. Fit a body like that with a live view capable sensor and a DA14, DA21 or DA40 ... ah! The time may be coming right for Pentax to introduce such a camera... Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 6:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't think the destruction is already in progress? Only for luddites and film addicts. ;-) I believe SLR sales are at an all-time high. That's do of course to the transition to digital, but it certainly doesn't spell doom. A fellow subscriber to the DPReview.com mailing list was in town on Sunday so we met in San Francisco and had a good afternoon's meander through the Golden Gate Park/De Young Museum neighborhood. Both of us noted that there are probably 3-4x as many SLR cameras in the hands of tourists compared to compacts for the first time in 20 or more years, far more than even a year ago. If that is the destruction of the camera industry, well ... G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
This thread is absolutely hilarious! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 02:53:02 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Feb 21, 2007, at 6:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't think the destruction is already in progress? Only for luddites and film addicts. ;-) I believe SLR sales are at an all-time high. That's do of course to the transition to digital, but it certainly doesn't spell doom. A fellow subscriber to the DPReview.com mailing list was in town on Sunday so we met in San Francisco and had a good afternoon's meander through the Golden Gate Park/De Young Museum neighborhood. Both of us noted that there are probably 3-4x as many SLR cameras in the hands of tourists compared to compacts for the first time in 20 or more years, far more than even a year ago. If that is the destruction of the camera industry, well ... That's one way of looking at it but companies have different expectations from their businesses, too. Those people have to keep buying SLRs for the market to remain bouyant. Think how many primary manufacturers (by which I mean whose main industry was photography, not a box shifter jumping on the new big thing) have gone out of business in the last five years. Choice is being dramatically eroded. If the market swings away from SLR use, we will for sure find prices rising substantially - maybe production ceasing altogether. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Is it? I've missed something. G On Feb 21, 2007, at 6:59 AM, Mark Roberts wrote: This thread is absolutely hilarious! -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 02:55:41 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:55 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/ pentaxdigitalcameras/ I'd like something like that, with a sensor related to the one in the Sony R1. It would be a great way to have a compact and keep using my Pentax lenses. Fit a body like that with a live view capable sensor and a DA14, DA21 or DA40 ... ah! The time may be coming right for Pentax to introduce such a camera... Never happen Pie in the sky Market's too small etc etc etc Just thought I'd save someone the effort. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:20 AM, mike wilson wrote: That's one way of looking at it but companies have different expectations from their businesses, too. Those people have to keep buying SLRs for the market to remain bouyant. Think how many primary manufacturers (by which I mean whose main industry was photography, not a box shifter jumping on the new big thing) have gone out of business in the last five years. Choice is being dramatically eroded. If the market swings away from SLR use, we will for sure find prices rising substantially - maybe production ceasing altogether. We've lost Konica, Minolta and gained Sony, Panasonic, Samsung. Zeiss, Leica, Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Hasselblad, Sinar, are all still around. The loss of some and the gain of others, particularly large companies with a lot of financial clout and a history in imaging technologies (both Sony and Panasonic are well respected in this area, market leaders, even if they weren't still camera vendors of the old school) does not seem to me to be a dramatic erosion of choice. But I'm not a Luddite. ;-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:11 AM, mike wilson wrote: http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/ pentaxdigitalcameras/ I'd like something like that, with a sensor related to the one in the Sony R1. It would be a great way to have a compact and keep using my Pentax lenses. Fit a body like that with a live view capable sensor and a DA14, DA21 or DA40 ... ah! The time may be coming right for Pentax to introduce such a camera... Never happen Pie in the sky Market's too small etc etc etc Just thought I'd save someone the effort. I expect it is. I am keeping an eye out for the Sigma DP-1, on the other hand. Supposed to be more info from PMA next month. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 03:31:02 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:20 AM, mike wilson wrote: That's one way of looking at it but companies have different expectations from their businesses, too. Those people have to keep buying SLRs for the market to remain bouyant. Think how many primary manufacturers (by which I mean whose main industry was photography, not a box shifter jumping on the new big thing) have gone out of business in the last five years. Choice is being dramatically eroded. If the market swings away from SLR use, we will for sure find prices rising substantially - maybe production ceasing altogether. We've lost Konica, Minolta and gained Sony, Panasonic, Samsung. Zeiss, Leica, Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Hasselblad, Sinar, are all still around. The loss of some and the gain of others, particularly large companies with a lot of financial clout and a history in imaging technologies (both Sony and Panasonic are well respected in this area, market leaders, even if they weren't still camera vendors of the old school) does not seem to me to be a dramatic erosion of choice. But I'm not a Luddite. ;-) I don't agree with your assesment of the new kids. They are classic box shifters of the old school. If imaging sales even flicker, they will be off on the next big thing faster than the top speed of a Z1-p shutter. I think we have lost a few more manufacturers than you list, too. Maybe not big players but providers of systems with their own charcteristics. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 03:32:11 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:11 AM, mike wilson wrote: http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/ pentaxdigitalcameras/ I'd like something like that, with a sensor related to the one in the Sony R1. It would be a great way to have a compact and keep using my Pentax lenses. Fit a body like that with a live view capable sensor and a DA14, DA21 or DA40 ... ah! The time may be coming right for Pentax to introduce such a camera... Never happen Pie in the sky Market's too small etc etc etc Just thought I'd save someone the effort. I expect it is. I am keeping an eye out for the Sigma DP-1, on the other hand. Supposed to be more info from PMA next month. Has shutter delay on live-view sensors been solved? - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07 10:53 AM, mike wilson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They are classic box shifters of the old school. If imaging sales even flicker, they will be off on the next big thing faster than the top speed of a Z1-p shutter. Totally agreed. Taking an example of Sony, they are now cutting back (retreating mode) on PS3 or whatever they call, as their profit margin began to dwindle. They would have never entered into DSLR market unless they encountered a chance to acquire K/M assets cheap without any new investment, which apparently came unexpectedly (beyond just collaboration to utilize their resources). They will pump out remakes of K/M legacy derived bodies and rebadged lenses, but the moment they see the slightest sign of the market saturating and not making enough profit, they will be out. Their traditional PS are good. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:48 AM, mike wilson wrote: I expect it is. I am keeping an eye out for the Sigma DP-1, on the other hand. Supposed to be more info from PMA next month. Has shutter delay on live-view sensors been solved? Depends on what you mean by that. Shutter lag on recent cameras, like the Fuji F30, is comparable to a 35mm compact AF camera, but not as responsive as an SLR or a manual focus, manual 35mm compact like the Rollei 35S ... but it's close to that one. Most live-view cameras use the main sensor to frame, focus, and evaluate exposure so there are delays if you are pressing the shutter release in one action. If, however, you can lock exposure and focus prior to making the release, the lag is very short and modern cameras with good internal bus transfer speed, coupled with fast storage, move the data to storage very quickly now, reducing shot to shot delay to near zero. Buffered IO in some cameras, like in SLRs, eliminates the shot to shot delay almost entirely. Basically, the issues come down to what the camera has as hardware and what you're willing to pay for it. I hope for something like the DP-1 or the Pentax prototype with the ability to turn off the AF, lock the exposure, and turn off the Live View in exchange for a quality clip-on viewfinder when responsiveness was primary. That would make a great compact. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Cosina already does this and has for about 30 years, with their film bodies. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: I'm sure that Cosina is already working on it. I don;t expect the modules to be user, replaceable, but a factory modification. If they were user replaceable you'd destroy the camera industry... mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
mike wilson wrote: From: Boris Liberman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 12:27:47 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On 2/21/07, mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. I like the idea of K-mount digital range finder much better ;-). I don't think modular appears in vocabulary of any camera manufacturer unless we're talking medium format and bigger... Just my cents. Doesn't one of the top end Nikons have an interchangeable viewfinder? That's about as modular as you need these days. Nope, the last interchangable-viewfinder Nikon was the F5, discontinued over a year ago with all the film bodies other than the F6 and Cosina FM10. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Sony (was Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+)
On 2/21/07 11:20 AM, K.Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Totally agreed. Taking an example of Sony, they are now cutting back (retreating mode) on PS3 or whatever they call, as their profit margin began to dwindle. They would have never entered into DSLR market unless they encountered a chance to acquire K/M assets cheap without any new investment, which apparently came unexpectedly (beyond just collaboration to utilize their resources). They will pump out remakes of K/M legacy derived bodies and rebadged lenses, but the moment they see the slightest sign of the market saturating and not making enough profit, they will be out. Their traditional PS are good. I am not badmouthing about Sony but I would not buy their DSLR as I do not know what they are going to do in the future. Sony has changed a lot and become more shrewd these days. Last month, they had a press conference regarding their quarterly financial results. In there, the CFO talked about 3 major areas, namely PS, TV and digital camera. Re digital camera, he said that their CyberShot sold well and actually exceeded their forecast of 15.5 million units by another 1.5 million units. However, when he was asked how the sale of DSLRs are going, he was rather frank and said [because of competing models released by Nikon and Canon, Sony has been struggling badly. We have been planning 2nd and 3rd models but cannot tell when we would launch these. But we would not retreat]. Well, he mentioned the word retreat. Even though it was used in a positive context, the very fact he used the word retreat without being asked indicated to me their usual strategy, make money while they can, but when going gets tough, just retreat and minimize bleeding. DSLR has never been their main biz. They will continue to supply image sensor and might even produce DSLRs with larger sensors or even FF, but their long term strategy on DSLR is always strictly profit driven. Sorry. Sony fans. This is juts my personal take :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
oh, OK then, I thought all of the A series lenses had been discontinued because of so few offerings from retailers. From a practical standpoint though, this isnt much of a manual focus lens lineup is it? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:05 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ J. C. O'Connell wrote: Actually not really, I was correct but I didnt state PENTAX manual focusl lenses new but the original post DID state why not buy PENTAX AF lenses. Of course you can a lot of manual focus lenses in general, but not from PENTAX you cant for their DSLRs. Yes you can. According to Pentax's website the SMCP-A 300/2.8 is available and is also listed on BH. Same with the A 50 1.2. Pentax lists others but these don't appear to be available in stores. -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I doubt that, point and shoots have ruled since the mid 80's. I think SLRs sales peaked in the late 70's and still have not been matched. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:31 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ -- Original message -- From: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] You don't think the destruction is already in progress? I believe SLR sales are at an all-time high. That's do of course to the transition to digital, but it certainly doesn't spell doom. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Of course not. And if you ordered one of these lenses there is probably little chance of actually getting it. What makes me laugh most is the A* 300/2.8 is US$600 more than the FA* version -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net J. C. O'Connell wrote: oh, OK then, I thought all of the A series lenses had been discontinued because of so few offerings from retailers. From a practical standpoint though, this isnt much of a manual focus lens lineup is it? jco Yes you can. According to Pentax's website the SMCP-A 300/2.8 is available and is also listed on BH. Same with the A 50 1.2. Pentax lists others but these don't appear to be available in stores. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco Sounds good on paper. Conceptually very simple. Minimal modifications required to an existing camera. Legal requirements and licensing modification of hardware and software on an existing camera very expensive. Very expensive to pay engineers to do it. Very expensive to produce at low volume. Let's see... a half-dozen engineers at $100K/year for at least 6 months is $300K. Ramping up production to produce 1000 units, probably $500K (I have no firm numbers to support this, but it seems reasonable). Licensing modifications from an existing camera a $mil or so. So, you've got 1000 cameras that cost $10M to produce. That's $10K each. OR, you can pay 20 engineers for a year, making custom ASICs or patching something together using off-the-shelf components to try to make them from scratch. Probably quite a bit more than the $10M to make 1000 units. Your choice. If you and the other 10 people on the planet buy theirs, then they'll have to charge $100K per unit to break even. Economies of scale will not allow it to happen. Not enough market. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I think you are wrong. Of course there are way more than 10 potential buyers. There are MILLIONS of good and great M42 lenses actually owned by people. Not a few dozen. There are probably more m42 lenses in existance than ALL K mount lenses ever made and they have produced K mount DSLRS havent they? Secondly, my comments in that post were made on relative cost to develop a M42 DSLR from an existing design, vs developing one from scratch. It would not be very complex. Its not like this M42 pin actuator mechanism change is a swiss watch or something, its fairly basic. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:25 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco Sounds good on paper. Conceptually very simple. Minimal modifications required to an existing camera. Legal requirements and licensing modification of hardware and software on an existing camera very expensive. Very expensive to pay engineers to do it. Very expensive to produce at low volume. Let's see... a half-dozen engineers at $100K/year for at least 6 months is $300K. Ramping up production to produce 1000 units, probably $500K (I have no firm numbers to support this, but it seems reasonable). Licensing modifications from an existing camera a $mil or so. So, you've got 1000 cameras that cost $10M to produce. That's $10K each. OR, you can pay 20 engineers for a year, making custom ASICs or patching something together using off-the-shelf components to try to make them from scratch. Probably quite a bit more than the $10M to make 1000 units. Your choice. If you and the other 10 people on the planet buy theirs, then they'll have to charge $100K per unit to break even. Economies of scale will not allow it to happen. Not enough market. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Sony (was Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+)
However, when he was asked how the sale of DSLRs are going, he was rather frank and said [because of competing models released by Nikon and Canon, Sony has been struggling badly. We have been planning 2nd and 3rd models but cannot tell when we would launch these. But we would not retreat]. Well, he mentioned the word retreat. Even though it was used in a positive context, the very fact he used the word retreat without being asked indicated to me their usual strategy, make money while they can, but when going gets tough, just retreat and minimize bleeding. DSLR has never been their main biz. They will continue to supply image sensor and might even produce DSLRs with larger sensors or even FF, but their long term strategy on DSLR is always strictly profit driven. Sorry. Sony fans. This is juts my personal take :-). Ken My experience in life has been that whenever a corporate executive says they are not going to do something, it means that they have already thought about doing it, and often times that very deed occurs. I have no idea about Sony and my guess is that it's too soon for them to abandon DSLR's at the moment. I have, however, been through numerous corporate mergers and been on over a dozen 40+ miilion dollar projects. Whenever I hear 'don't worry that is not going to happen', I start worrying. It's saved my neck multiple time in the last 25 years. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Sony (was Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+)
On 2/21/07 1:56 PM, Tom C, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have, however, been through numerous corporate mergers and been on over a dozen 40+ miilion dollar projects. Whenever I hear 'don't worry that is not going to happen', I start worrying. It's saved my neck multiple time in the last 25 years. Exactly my thought, Tom. Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:53 AM, mike wilson wrote: ... They are classic box shifters of the old school. ... There have been so many people disparaging Sony in the still camera market over the past five to seven years I simply ignore this kind of stuff. Of course, many older photographic companies have gone out of business, but that's been happening constantly over the past 40 years anyway, it's just accelerated a bit in recent days due to the huge transition in technology. Good news is that I have a camera that works well, there are plenty of others available if this one stops working, and overall I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07 2:56 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There have been so many people disparaging Sony in the still camera market over the past five to seven years I simply ignore this kind of stuff. Of course, many older photographic companies have gone out of business, but that's been happening constantly over the past 40 years anyway, it's just accelerated a bit in recent days due to the huge transition in technology. Good news is that I have a camera that works well, there are plenty of others available if this one stops working, and overall I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Perhaps you should keep ignoring :-). It's just other persons' view (and often merely an entertaining topic) and anybody is free to ignore it. Different people have different opinions. These other persons are also ignoring yet other people's topic. It is just that they do not bother to take time to come out and say that the topics are stupid and to be ignored. :-) Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Well you are just STUPID of COURSE it matter what kind of ax you use! You can't be SERIOUS if you think an ax without an aperture simulator will split hardwood logs better. And can't you see that new axes are not built to the same standards as the old K and M axes. Have you seen eBay prices for screw mount axes?? You are just INSANE! Dare I add -- :-) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I think you are wrong. Of course there are way Why am I not surprised? more than 10 potential buyers. There are MILLIONS of good and great M42 lenses actually owned by people. Not a few dozen. There are probably more m42 lenses in existance than ALL K mount lenses ever made and they have produced K mount DSLRS havent they? ... but are there more than a few dozen who would be willing to pay significantly MORE (RD costs) for a camera that can ONLY use 30+ year old MF lenses as compared to a modern camera that can use the same lenses with minor inconveniences? This is not the same argument as the aperture coupler. That's a minor cost savings on a mount that could easily facilitate it without removing modern features. A true M42 DSLR could NOT use anything more modern than auto-aperture MF M42 lenses. Secondly, my comments in that post were made on relative cost to develop a M42 DSLR from an existing design, vs developing one from scratch. It would not be very complex. Its not like this M42 pin actuator mechanism change is a swiss watch or something, its fairly basic. jco You confuse prototype costs with production costs. One could certainly hack their K-mount DSLR to mount M42 lenses directly, operate the aperture pin, and maybe even reverse engineer the software to have the camera use it. In reality, you'd need to license the design for modifying (hardware and software...costing big bucks), or build one from the ground up (even bigger bucks). Both of which would require physical production unless you're going to build them one-off in your basement. Just hacking up a working prototype is a far cry from a marketable product. -Cory -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:25 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco Sounds good on paper. Conceptually very simple. Minimal modifications required to an existing camera. Legal requirements and licensing modification of hardware and software on an existing camera very expensive. Very expensive to pay engineers to do it. Very expensive to produce at low volume. Let's see... a half-dozen engineers at $100K/year for at least 6 months is $300K. Ramping up production to produce 1000 units, probably $500K (I have no firm numbers to support this, but it seems reasonable). Licensing modifications from an existing camera a $mil or so. So, you've got 1000 cameras that cost $10M to produce. That's $10K each. OR, you can pay 20 engineers for a year, making custom ASICs or patching something together using off-the-shelf components to try to make them from scratch. Probably quite a bit more than the $10M to make 1000 units. Your choice. If you and the other 10 people on the planet buy theirs, then they'll have to charge $100K per unit to break even. Economies of scale will not allow it to happen. Not enough market. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:26 PM, Christian wrote: Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Well you are just STUPID of COURSE it matter what kind of ax you use! You can't be SERIOUS if you think an ax without an aperture simulator will split hardwood logs better. And can't you see that new axes are not built to the same standards as the old K and M axes. Have you seen eBay prices for screw mount axes?? You are just INSANE! Dare I add -- :-) Dare I be hearing the echo of an idiot that I've set up the server to trash without his emails ever reaching my email? Probably. I seem to recall the noise from the distant past. It's so quiet here now. Godfrey -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Secondly, my comments in that post were made on relative cost to develop a M42 DSLR from an existing design, vs developing one from scratch. It would not be very complex. Its not like this M42 pin actuator mechanism change is a swiss watch or something, its fairly basic. jco You confuse prototype costs with production costs. One could certainly hack their K-mount DSLR to mount M42 lenses directly, operate the aperture pin, and maybe even reverse engineer the software to have the camera use it. In reality, you'd need to license the design for modifying (hardware and software...costing big bucks), or build one from the ground up (even bigger bucks). Both of which would require physical production unless you're going to build them one-off in your basement. Just hacking up a working prototype is a far cry from a marketable product. -Cory === NO, I wasnt confusing the two, I was taking both into consideration. Its not a complex a mechanism to DEVELOP or MFG. Far simpler than the rest of the camera, which wouldnt even need changing. No, its not as simple as the cam sensor for K/M lenses would be, but in my opinion the benefit of the M42 camera (AUTO APERTURE) is not minor and far more important than the K/M aperture sensor would be for K/M lenses would be for PK DSLR bodies. Its a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR flaw to not have autoaperture function, far worse than limted meter or Lack of AF would ever be. jco === -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 12:12 PM, K.Takeshita wrote: On 2/21/07 2:56 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There have been so many people disparaging Sony in the still camera market over the past five to seven years I simply ignore this kind of stuff. Of course, many older photographic companies have gone out of business, but that's been happening constantly over the past 40 years anyway, it's just accelerated a bit in recent days due to the huge transition in technology. Good news is that I have a camera that works well, there are plenty of others available if this one stops working, and overall I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Perhaps you should keep ignoring :-). It's just other persons' view (and often merely an entertaining topic) and anybody is free to ignore it. Different people have different opinions. These other persons are also ignoring yet other people's topic. It is just that they do not bother to take time to come out and say that the topics are stupid and to be ignored. :-) Ken, I didn't say the topic was stupid or that everyone should ignore it. I said that *I* ignore it. I ignore it because I've heard the same things a bazillion times over and over again. I'm tired of hearing about it. That's *my* opinion. I hope I have your permission to ignore what I want to ignore. Sony will do what makes them profit, just like Pentax or Nikon or Leica or anyone else in BUSINESS *ought* to do. If you don't make a profit, you don't stay in business. They have a long history of being in the electronic imaging market. Since that's where photography is now, I expect them to be around there for a long time, making products. Whether they stay in the DSLR market is irrelevant to me at present ... I use Pentax equipment right now. Will they be making the products that I want to buy, personally? I don't know. I've owned several Sony cameras and, aside from the F828, they all produced very good photographs. I currently still have the R1 but my use of it has pretty much ceased since Pentax delivered the 10Mpixel body. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I dont think this is right, if you want to quote any of my posts feel free to do so, but to attempt to post my positions on totally different topics is really ludicrous. Screw you. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:27 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Well you are just STUPID of COURSE it matter what kind of ax you use! You can't be SERIOUS if you think an ax without an aperture simulator will split hardwood logs better. And can't you see that new axes are not built to the same standards as the old K and M axes. Have you seen eBay prices for screw mount axes?? You are just INSANE! Dare I add -- :-) -- Christian http://photography.skofteland.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
=== NO, I wasnt confusing the two, I was taking both into consideration. Its not a complex a mechanism to DEVELOP or MFG. Far simpler than the rest of the camera, which wouldnt even need changing. If it's so friggin' simple, why don't you just do it and let us all know when we can buy your camera at Wal-Mart. No, its not as simple as the cam sensor for K/M lenses would be, but in my opinion the benefit of the M42 camera (AUTO APERTURE) is not minor and far more important than the K/M aperture sensor would be for K/M lenses would be for PK DSLR bodies. Its a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR flaw to not have autoaperture function, far worse than limted meter or Lack of AF would ever be. jco === So exactly what functionality does an auto-aperture M42 lens/body combination have that is not gained by an aperture coupler in a K-mount? IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07, Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken, I didn't say the topic was stupid or that everyone should ignore it. I said that *I* ignore it. I ignore it because I've heard the same things a bazillion times over and over again. I'm tired of hearing about it. That's *my* opinion. I hope I have your permission to ignore what I want to ignore. Sony will do what makes them profit, just like Pentax or Nikon or Leica or anyone else in BUSINESS *ought* to do. If you don't make a profit, you don't stay in business. They have a long history of being in the electronic imaging market. Since that's where photography is now, I expect them to be around there for a long time, making products. Whether they stay in the DSLR market is irrelevant to me at present ... I use Pentax equipment right now. Will they be making the products that I want to buy, personally? I don't know. I've owned several Sony cameras and, aside from the F828, they all produced very good photographs. I currently still have the R1 but my use of it has pretty much ceased since Pentax delivered the 10Mpixel body. Oh Godfrey, don't get too uptight about this :-). I ignore a lot of threads which do not interest me but I just do not come out and tell the world that I ignore them. That's all. Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. Pana is similar to Sony except they are more ribut now and much larger than Sony in consumer electronics. I said that Sony is still very good in PS digital which is backed by sales results, but are apparently finding DSLR manuafacturing being a tough business. They were quite outspoken when they said that C/N have launched competing models and are struggling. of course they are. C/N are sniping at Sony which is a newcomer to their traditional market and C/N do not wish to share any more pie which has been fixed and shared by their competitng buddies such as Pentax and Oly etc. Now, I am not an analyst and should stop here, but judging from what everybody can see, I just thought that it is too risky to buy into Sony DSLR. Remember I am talking only about DSLR. It is too bad that Minolta was one of the most innovative camera companies, and was not afraid of risking by producing innovative technologies. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). Take it easy please :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07 4:12 PM, K.Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pana is similar to Sony except they are more ribut now they are more robust now Non native speaker should not invent words :-). Please help, Dave! Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: Christian Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: I don't care what axe I use as long as I get to chop the wood needed to cook dinner. Well you are just STUPID of COURSE it matter what kind of ax you use! You can't be SERIOUS if you think an ax without an aperture simulator will split hardwood logs better. And can't you see that new axes are not built to the same standards as the old K and M axes. Have you seen eBay prices for screw mount axes?? You are just INSANE! Dare I add -- :-) EVERYONE KNOWS THAT YOU NEED A CHOPPING MAUL TO SPLIT WOOD. YOU'D HAVE TO BE STUPID TO TRY TO CHOP WOOD WITH AN AXE. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: K.Takeshita Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On 2/21/07 4:12 PM, K.Takeshita, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pana is similar to Sony except they are more ribut now they are more robust now Non native speaker should not invent words :-). I liked it more when they were a little more froggy.. ww -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: Cory Papenfuss Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. Yawn Most of them are 55mm 1.8 lenses which don't really count towards the millions you guys are batting around. You are probably talking about a few hundred lenses in the hands of a few dozen potential users. Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. This is one of them. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
YOU are the one confused here. ALL autoaperture M42 lenses have open-aperture auto aperture (your term, not mine), that's what auto aperture ISs by defintion. The lens aperture stays open all the time during focus and composition and only stops down during the moment of exposure. It then reopens immediately and automatically after the exposure is made. The vast majority of M42 lenses are auto apeture models. Yes, there are/were some presets, some semi-automatics, and some manuals with regards to the aperture function but the vast majority of them (M42) are full auto-aperture. The reason I say you are confused is you are associating the metering directly with the autoaperture ( someone else was doing the same thing too, but its a mistake ) because the metering technique is independent of the auto aperture function. Most M42 bodies do stop down metering, but this is only temporary, during the metering function itself, and the lens goes back to normal autoaperture functioning once the proper meter reading is made ( if the body even has metering, or you choose to use it, or choose to take another meter reading). OPEN APERTURE METERING- which is what I think you are referrring to ( which is not the same thing as auto apeture), is where you can take meter readings without stopping down the lens. That is not as common as autoaperture, but it is not as needed or useful as autoaperture is either. All open aperture metering lenses have autoapeture function too, but not all autoaperture lenses have open aperture metering function. I am not advocating a dedicated M42 DSLR be produced for open aperture metering, I am advocating one to get the AUTOAPERTURE function, which most M42 lenses support, and which is sorely lacking when you mount M42 lenses on any current DSLR including Pentax's via a M42 mount adapter ring. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 4:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ === NO, I wasnt confusing the two, I was taking both into consideration. Its not a complex a mechanism to DEVELOP or MFG. Far simpler than the rest of the camera, which wouldnt even need changing. If it's so friggin' simple, why don't you just do it and let us all know when we can buy your camera at Wal-Mart. No, its not as simple as the cam sensor for K/M lenses would be, but in my opinion the benefit of the M42 camera (AUTO APERTURE) is not minor and far more important than the K/M aperture sensor would be for K/M lenses would be for PK DSLR bodies. Its a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR flaw to not have autoaperture function, far worse than limted meter or Lack of AF would ever be. jco === So exactly what functionality does an auto-aperture M42 lens/body combination have that is not gained by an aperture coupler in a K-mount? IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Cory Papenfuss Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. Yawn Most of them are 55mm 1.8 lenses which don't really count towards the millions you guys are batting around. You are probably talking about a few hundred lenses in the hands of a few dozen potential users. Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. This is one of them. William Robb And most of those users wouldn't want a M42 DSLR because it wouldn't mount their other MF glass. Same people are using R, C/Y, OM and Nikkor glass on those bodies, apart from the subset using K mount bodies. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
This is really incredible, to suggest there are only a few hundred M42 lenses (other than 50/55mm) in the hands of a dozen people is so out of this world wrong it's really absurd. M42 was the so called universal mount adopted by many many MFGRS and were produced in mass numbers. Due to the build quality standards of the day, most of them still exist and they are actually owned by people (believe it or not). There were as many or more choices (focal lengths) in really good prime lenses in the M42 era then there are today because zooms were not good enough back then to even come close the the primes of that era. So I would say this reply post below is total hogwash! JCO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of William Robb Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 4:22 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ - Original Message - From: Cory Papenfuss Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. Yawn Most of them are 55mm 1.8 lenses which don't really count towards the millions you guys are batting around. You are probably talking about a few hundred lenses in the hands of a few dozen potential users. Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. This is one of them. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
No, I don't think the demand is not there, I think the technology isn't., and for the discriminating, may never be there. That doesn't mean that such a camera won't be introduced, or won't entirely displace reflex mirror/pentaprism designs, after all electric control systems are displacing hydraulics in lots of places because they are easier to engineer, not necessarily because they are better for the user. mike wilson wrote: From: Godfrey DiGiorgi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed PM 02:55:41 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:55 AM, P. J. Alling wrote: http://www.photokina-show.com/0466/pentax/digitalcamera/ pentaxdigitalcameras/ I'd like something like that, with a sensor related to the one in the Sony R1. It would be a great way to have a compact and keep using my Pentax lenses. Fit a body like that with a live view capable sensor and a DA14, DA21 or DA40 ... ah! The time may be coming right for Pentax to introduce such a camera... Never happen Pie in the sky Market's too small etc etc etc Just thought I'd save someone the effort. - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
none of those other makes are anywhere near as abundant as M42 lenses are and none of those other makes are autoapeture supported via M42 adapter rings on DSLRs either, its not a correct or logical argument you are making because of the GLARING loss of the m42 autoapeture function those other things you suggest entail. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Maas Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 4:40 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: Cory Papenfuss Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ IIRC, there aren't many of the millions of M42 lenses out there that have open-aperture auto aperture. Most are auto/manual stop-down metering. Yawn Most of them are 55mm 1.8 lenses which don't really count towards the millions you guys are batting around. You are probably talking about a few hundred lenses in the hands of a few dozen potential users. Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. This is one of them. William Robb And most of those users wouldn't want a M42 DSLR because it wouldn't mount their other MF glass. Same people are using R, C/Y, OM and Nikkor glass on those bodies, apart from the subset using K mount bodies. -Adam -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I expect that there's a digital Cosina in the wings already. Maybe in collaboration with Epson. If they build it to the quality specifications of the Bessaflex they could probably ask $2000, with no better sensor than the one that's in the Canon 400, Pentax K10, Nikon D80, Sony A100 at a much lower level of electronic sophistication. Heck it would probably be selling point to have to cock the shutter with a wind lever like the RD-1. Adam Maas wrote: Cosina already does this and has for about 30 years, with their film bodies. -Adam P. J. Alling wrote: I'm sure that Cosina is already working on it. I don;t expect the modules to be user, replaceable, but a factory modification. If they were user replaceable you'd destroy the camera industry... mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/02/21 Wed AM 03:43:58 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ It might not be that small a niche if it were designed correctly it could be build to cater to a number of classic lenses. A simple change of the front module and you have a Classic FD lens mount DSLR, Classic OM, Classic K, Classic MD, etc. as well as the Classic M42 DSLR. When you consider all of the orphan lens systems, most of them with quite good optics, you have quite a potential market. _That_ is a superb idea. Pity it's not possible to patent ideas. Might be worth you contacting, say, Tamron before someone steals it from you. David Savage wrote: At 10:41 AM 21/02/2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I guess you just dont understand,this would NOT be for a beginner or someone who wants to buy lenses off the shelf, this is for someone who already has or wants to use M42 manual focus lenses IN PARTICULAR. No, I understood. That's why I said Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses It wouldnt be for those other cases at all. I think you are trying generalize to much, no camera does it all or is for everyone, and a M42 DSLR would just be another specific camera designed to do a specific thing. The thing is the market for one would be so small a niche, the cost of one will be very high. And high cost, low volume is rare in (electronics) manufacturing in this day and age. Cheers, Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Savage Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What would be the benefit to someone buying their first DSLR?. Don't discredit the allure of AF too quickly. People new to photography like AF, and they like it a lot. Any M42 mount DSLR would only appeal to those who already own a lot of M42 lenses. So the limited market for it would either make it an extremely expensive piece of kit, or very cheap nasty. Also the inability buy a lens on demand is a big minus. Why scour eBay the second hand stores for the lens you want when you can buy a brand new Canon, Nikon or Pentax AF lens? Cheers, Dave -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.virginmedia.com/email Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software and scanned for spam -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote: On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:48 AM, mike wilson wrote: I expect it is. I am keeping an eye out for the Sigma DP-1, on the other hand. Supposed to be more info from PMA next month. Has shutter delay on live-view sensors been solved? Depends on what you mean by that. Shutter lag on recent cameras, like the Fuji F30, is comparable to a 35mm compact AF camera, but not as responsive as an SLR or a manual focus, manual 35mm compact like the Rollei 35S ... but it's close to that one. Most live-view cameras use the main sensor to frame, focus, and evaluate exposure so there are delays if you are pressing the shutter release in one action. If, however, you can lock exposure and focus prior to making the release, the lag is very short and modern cameras with good internal bus transfer speed, coupled with fast storage, move the data to storage very quickly now, reducing shot to shot delay to near zero. Buffered IO in some cameras, like in SLRs, eliminates the shot to shot delay almost entirely. Basically, the issues come down to what the camera has as hardware and what you're willing to pay for it. I hope for something like the DP-1 or the Pentax prototype with the ability to turn off the AF, lock the exposure, and turn off the Live View in exchange for a quality clip-on viewfinder when responsiveness was primary. That would make a great compact. If I was buying a digital rangefinder, I would want the shutter delay of an M3. Or at least a Zorki -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 2:20 PM, mike wilson wrote: If I was buying a digital rangefinder, I would want the shutter delay of an M3. Or at least a Zorki So would I. But then these are not digital rangefinders ... there are two of those on the market today, namely the Leica M8 and Epson RD-1. They give you that kind of responsiveness. The Sigma DP-1 is a digicam with an fixed lens, the Pentax prototype is a digicam that can take Pentax SLR lenses. Totally different kinds of cameras from digital rangefinders ... they don't have rangefinders. G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07 5:53 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are two of those on the market today, namely the Leica M8 and Epson RD-1. They give you that kind of responsiveness. Yes, these are the ones I really want, even over DSLRs for everyday shooting (no macro, no telephoto). However, they are awfully expensive and IMO, not worth the money (excellent cameras but not worth $2~3000 etc). If 4/3 camp offers a rangefinder, I will buy it in a heartbeat (provided of course the price is reasonable). I often think SLR design is too much of a dinosaur, although I am fully aware of their place in photography and use them a lot. Someone here recently said that he looked at G7 but sensor was too small. In many case, G7 type design with larger sensor and better image quality would be more convenient in many situations. My ideal combo (mind you, I am a hobbyist and fortunately do not have to earn money for grocery by photography. Photography is fun as long as it stays as a hobby :-) would be; 645N for deliberate location shoot and portrait in my garage studio (using it less and less these days though) K10D with 21mm and 70mm DA plus coming two 2.8 zoom, mainly for macro (I do a lot), telephoto (which means to me over 150mm in 135 :-) plus somewhat more formal shooting An upscale rangefinder (interchangeable lens) with APS size sensor for walk about and everyday shooting Canon SD450 (a digital elf) which I replaced with G3 for complete portability. Throw it in hip pocket and always available. That's all. I have other hobbies and cannot afford to spend much more :-( Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
The same software that works in the Epson RD-1 would work for an M42 DSLR, for capture anyway. The metering software is even easier. Assuming that someone wanted to built such a thing. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I think you are wrong. Of course there are way Why am I not surprised? more than 10 potential buyers. There are MILLIONS of good and great M42 lenses actually owned by people. Not a few dozen. There are probably more m42 lenses in existance than ALL K mount lenses ever made and they have produced K mount DSLRS havent they? ... but are there more than a few dozen who would be willing to pay significantly MORE (RD costs) for a camera that can ONLY use 30+ year old MF lenses as compared to a modern camera that can use the same lenses with minor inconveniences? This is not the same argument as the aperture coupler. That's a minor cost savings on a mount that could easily facilitate it without removing modern features. A true M42 DSLR could NOT use anything more modern than auto-aperture MF M42 lenses. Secondly, my comments in that post were made on relative cost to develop a M42 DSLR from an existing design, vs developing one from scratch. It would not be very complex. Its not like this M42 pin actuator mechanism change is a swiss watch or something, its fairly basic. jco You confuse prototype costs with production costs. One could certainly hack their K-mount DSLR to mount M42 lenses directly, operate the aperture pin, and maybe even reverse engineer the software to have the camera use it. In reality, you'd need to license the design for modifying (hardware and software...costing big bucks), or build one from the ground up (even bigger bucks). Both of which would require physical production unless you're going to build them one-off in your basement. Just hacking up a working prototype is a far cry from a marketable product. -Cory -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:25 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco Sounds good on paper. Conceptually very simple. Minimal modifications required to an existing camera. Legal requirements and licensing modification of hardware and software on an existing camera very expensive. Very expensive to pay engineers to do it. Very expensive to produce at low volume. Let's see... a half-dozen engineers at $100K/year for at least 6 months is $300K. Ramping up production to produce 1000 units, probably $500K (I have no firm numbers to support this, but it seems reasonable). Licensing modifications from an existing camera a $mil or so. So, you've got 1000 cameras that cost $10M to produce. That's $10K each. OR, you can pay 20 engineers for a year, making custom ASICs or patching something together using off-the-shelf components to try to make them from scratch. Probably quite a bit more than the $10M to make 1000 units. Your choice. If you and the other 10 people on the planet buy theirs, then they'll have to charge $100K per unit to break even. Economies of scale will not allow it to happen. Not enough market. -Cory -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Yawn Most of them are 55mm 1.8 lenses which don't really count towards the millions you guys are batting around. You are probably talking about a few hundred lenses in the hands of a few dozen potential users. Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. This is one of them. William Robb Holy crap! Write down this date... for once I *agree* with WR! (Of course just because something's too stupid to discuss doesn't necessarily mean I won't... for awhile). -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: YOU are the one confused here. ALL autoaperture M42 lenses have open-aperture auto aperture (your term, not mine), that's what auto aperture ISs by defintion. The lens aperture stays open all the time during focus and composition and only stops down during the moment of exposure. It then reopens immediately and automatically after the exposure is made. The vast majority of M42 lenses are auto apeture models. Yes, there are/were some presets, some semi-automatics, and some manuals with regards to the aperture function but the vast majority of them (M42) are full auto-aperture. The reason I say you are confused is you are associating the metering directly with the autoaperture ( someone else was doing the same thing too, but its a mistake ) because the metering technique is independent of the auto aperture function. Most M42 bodies do stop down metering, but this is only temporary, during the metering function itself, and the lens goes back to normal autoaperture functioning once the proper meter reading is made ( if the body even has metering, or you choose to use it, or choose to take another meter reading). OPEN APERTURE METERING- which is what I think you are referrring to ( which is not the same thing as auto apeture), is where you can take meter readings without stopping down the lens. That is not as common as autoaperture, but it is not as needed or useful as autoaperture is either. All open aperture metering lenses have autoapeture function too, but not all autoaperture lenses have open aperture metering function. I am not advocating a dedicated M42 DSLR be produced for open aperture metering, I am advocating one to get the AUTOAPERTURE function, which most M42 lenses support, and which is sorely lacking when you mount M42 lenses on any current DSLR including Pentax's via a M42 mount adapter ring. jco My confusion of terminology was primarily induced by your rabid infatuation with auto-aperture M42 lenses. I figured you must have *meant* open-aperture metering because that would be the main advantage of such a body. Auto-aperture with automatic stop-down metering still has the major problems of: - Meter inaccuracy due to angle on incidence - Meter inaccuracy due to falling off the end of metering range while stopped down. - Manual focus aids ineffective at apertures smaller than 5.6-8 or so. - Sticky apertures (LOTS of 'em on these old suckers... still work fine for manual stopdown metering, but not fast enough for auto) Automatic aperture with stop-down metering does not address any of these rather large problems. All it does is save one from having to flip a switch between focusing and pressing the button. The meter will work fine in 'P' mode once stopped down like that. Even more intuitive and automatic then the GB kludge for K/M lenses. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On Feb 21, 2007, at 1:22 PM, William Robb wrote: Godfrey has it right, some topics are too stupid to discuss. Mark! ]'-) G -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Yes, the Sony trinitron was definately superior to everybody else's CRTs and TVs for about 20 years from late 60's too late 80's. Unfortunately with the move to projection in the 90's and now other 21st century technologies like LCD, LCOS, plasma, And DLP they have lost that edge and are now trying desperately to get it back in the display / TV market. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:42 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
huh? the main advantage of a dedicated M42 DSLR body would be full support of auto aperture function that is NOT being supported with any DSLRS at this point via M42 adapters. Secondly, you obviously have never used autoaperture M42 lenses in the autoaperture mode or you would know that not having to flip awkward lensmounted aperture switches to open close the aperture every single time you want of focus and compose ( which is far more often than just taking a meter reading)and then again every time you want to make an exposure is nowhere near user friendly or ergonomic or intuitive or whatever you want to call it then when you dont have to that clunky, slow, error prone non-sense because the aperture function is fully AUTOMATIC. The autoaperture function is so important to ANY SLR camera design that the vast majority of all SLR lenses and bodies made since early 60's have it. It is far more important than ANY metering modes or metering at all. This is the SOLE reason for making a M42 dedicated DSLR, metering could be same as GB on Pentax Kmount bodies is now with K/M lenses because it would work with ANY M42 lens. Yes, the very last generation M42 lenses did have some open apeture metering modes available with certain lenses on certain bodies, but unlike the autoaperture function, these open aperture metering systems were nearly all propriatary and you had to buy same brand lenses as your body to get that function. I would not expect a whole bunch of totally different DSLR M42 bodies to be made to do that and for only a very few M42 lenses that could even do it in the first place. M42 DSLR body would almost certainly be a so-called universal M42 body with auto-aperture and NO open apeture metering function. And it would still be very useful for the millions of high quality M42 lenses out there. P.S. I am not infatuated with the M42 lenses, I have been using them for over 30 years, and still love using some of them. That's not infatuation by definition. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:54 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: YOU are the one confused here. ALL autoaperture M42 lenses have open-aperture auto aperture (your term, not mine), that's what auto aperture ISs by defintion. The lens aperture stays open all the time during focus and composition and only stops down during the moment of exposure. It then reopens immediately and automatically after the exposure is made. The vast majority of M42 lenses are auto apeture models. Yes, there are/were some presets, some semi-automatics, and some manuals with regards to the aperture function but the vast majority of them (M42) are full auto-aperture. The reason I say you are confused is you are associating the metering directly with the autoaperture ( someone else was doing the same thing too, but its a mistake ) because the metering technique is independent of the auto aperture function. Most M42 bodies do stop down metering, but this is only temporary, during the metering function itself, and the lens goes back to normal autoaperture functioning once the proper meter reading is made ( if the body even has metering, or you choose to use it, or choose to take another meter reading). OPEN APERTURE METERING- which is what I think you are referrring to ( which is not the same thing as auto apeture), is where you can take meter readings without stopping down the lens. That is not as common as autoaperture, but it is not as needed or useful as autoaperture is either. All open aperture metering lenses have autoapeture function too, but not all autoaperture lenses have open aperture metering function. I am not advocating a dedicated M42 DSLR be produced for open aperture metering, I am advocating one to get the AUTOAPERTURE function, which most M42 lenses support, and which is sorely lacking when you mount M42 lenses on any current DSLR including Pentax's via a M42 mount adapter ring. jco My confusion of terminology was primarily induced by your rabid infatuation with auto-aperture M42 lenses. I figured you must have *meant* open-aperture metering because that would be the main advantage of such a body. Auto-aperture with automatic stop-down metering still has the major problems of: - Meter inaccuracy due to angle on incidence - Meter inaccuracy due to falling off the end of metering range while stopped down. - Manual focus aids ineffective at apertures smaller than 5.6-8 or so. - Sticky apertures (LOTS of 'em on these old suckers... still work fine for manual stopdown metering, but not fast enough for auto) Automatic aperture with stop-down metering does not address any of these rather large problems. All it does is save one from having to flip a switch between focusing and pressing
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
But They just don't want to make the camera you want, it's not in Their interests. Sad for you and all the other M42 fans, but that what big business does, looks after itself instead of the little guys. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:44 AM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
- Original Message - From: Cory Papenfuss Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Holy crap! Write down this date... for once I *agree* with WR! Welcome to the world of the kinder, gentler me. WR -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
On 2/21/07 7:41 PM, Cory Papenfuss, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. Sony is now run by a no-nonsense American CEO who is cut and dry. If he deems certain product line having no long term future and not in line with Sony's strategy, he won't hesitate to cut it out. He is said to be steering Sony back to its roots, excellent consumer electronic products and professional equipment such as pro-video and broadcast equipment etc. He is said to be very reluctant on entertainment biz and game machine etc. One way or the other, I am sure they will reclaim their past glory. But until then, things such as Play Station with $200 million loss or DSLR might be on chopping block. CFO won't utter the word retreat from DSLR unless it was discussed deep in their board room. I am startled that CFO even admitted that their DSLR was targeted by C/N and they were struggling. That's not a positive spin, but too honest. However, I personally wish them to stay in the game as it will keep everybody else honest and we, users, will eventually benefit. So much on Sony :-). Ken -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
What the heck are you talking about?, of course this camera will not get produced unless its profitable to produce it, but there is a already market need for one, its just a matter of when it will become profitable to make one. there is no rush, these lenses are already about 25-45 years old and still ticking, they are not going to disappear anytime soon. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:14 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ But They just don't want to make the camera you want, it's not in Their interests. Sad for you and all the other M42 fans, but that what big business does, looks after itself instead of the little guys. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:44 AM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- ** ** * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
The Trinitron system used RCA's improved electron gun design and masking technology which made the one gun Color Tube possible. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont follow that, the uniqueness of the trinitron was it was a one gun system for color which usually used three guns. A one gun monochrome CRT was already standard. Can you elusidate further? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I dont think monochrome CRTs have shadow masks or as sony liked to call them aperture grilles. this is one of the main reasons its much easier to make a bright high resolution mono crt compared to a bright high res color crt. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:24 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ The Trinitron system used RCA's improved electron gun design and masking technology which made the one gun Color Tube possible. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont follow that, the uniqueness of the trinitron was it was a one gun system for color which usually used three guns. A one gun monochrome CRT was already standard. Can you elusidate further? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
You're not listening. RCA's research developed the soon to be Sony aperture grill system originally for BW. This gave a much improved, (sharper), picture. They were selling as many old style BW sets as they could make and didn't feel the extra cost was worth the improvement, (there may have been picture brightness issues, which would have required further development, I don't know about that, but the system improved perceived sharpness). They sold the patents to Sony. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont think monochrome CRTs have shadow masks or as sony liked to call them aperture grilles. this is one of the main reasons its much easier to make a bright high resolution mono crt compared to a bright high res color crt. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:24 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ The Trinitron system used RCA's improved electron gun design and masking technology which made the one gun Color Tube possible. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont follow that, the uniqueness of the trinitron was it was a one gun system for color which usually used three guns. A one gun monochrome CRT was already standard. Can you elusidate further? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Yes, we have no bananas. In your rush to disagree, you made my point. It matters not whether there is a viable market for an M42 DSLR, what matters is that no company wants to make it. The profit is selling DSLRs is in the OEM lenses. Companies will take a loss on cameras, knowing that they are making customers for profitable lenses. No OEM lens customers = no profit. No profit = no product. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What the heck are you talking about?, of course this camera will not get produced unless its profitable to produce it, but there is a already market need for one, its just a matter of when it will become profitable to make one. there is no rush, these lenses are already about 25-45 years old and still ticking, they are not going to disappear anytime soon. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:14 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ But They just don't want to make the camera you want, it's not in Their interests. Sad for you and all the other M42 fans, but that what big business does, looks after itself instead of the little guys. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:44 AM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- ** ** * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
What I was saying was I believe there is no need for a ahadow mask on monochrome monitors, its all negative/no help, etc., and they are only used on color monitors because of necessity. thats why I dont understand why these patents came from monochrome crt technology. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:50 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ You're not listening. RCA's research developed the soon to be Sony aperture grill system originally for BW. This gave a much improved, (sharper), picture. They were selling as many old style BW sets as they could make and didn't feel the extra cost was worth the improvement, (there may have been picture brightness issues, which would have required further development, I don't know about that, but the system improved perceived sharpness). They sold the patents to Sony. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont think monochrome CRTs have shadow masks or as sony liked to call them aperture grilles. this is one of the main reasons its much easier to make a bright high resolution mono crt compared to a bright high res color crt. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:24 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ The Trinitron system used RCA's improved electron gun design and masking technology which made the one gun Color Tube possible. J. C. O'Connell wrote: I dont follow that, the uniqueness of the trinitron was it was a one gun system for color which usually used three guns. A one gun monochrome CRT was already standard. Can you elusidate further? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
no, you dont get it, the only reason why a M42 dslr will be produced is if there is sufficient demand for it and it alone and a profit to be made on it alone as it is. I do not believe lens sales are necessary for that situation to occur. I also dont beleive all DSLR cameras are now or/will always be free razors sold at cost just to sell blades (lenses). An M42 DSLR would be a speciality item specifically for people who only want to buy the new body, cost will be higher, yes, but not necessarily economically unfeasable forever which is what you are implying here. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:41 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Yes, we have no bananas. In your rush to disagree, you made my point. It matters not whether there is a viable market for an M42 DSLR, what matters is that no company wants to make it. The profit is selling DSLRs is in the OEM lenses. Companies will take a loss on cameras, knowing that they are making customers for profitable lenses. No OEM lens customers = no profit. No profit = no product. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ What the heck are you talking about?, of course this camera will not get produced unless its profitable to produce it, but there is a already market need for one, its just a matter of when it will become profitable to make one. there is no rush, these lenses are already about 25-45 years old and still ticking, they are not going to disappear anytime soon. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Farr Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:14 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ But They just don't want to make the camera you want, it's not in Their interests. Sad for you and all the other M42 fans, but that what big business does, looks after itself instead of the little guys. regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:44 AM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ I think you are seriously overestimating the difficulty in producing/devloping a M42 DSLR, the only signifigant difference from a K100D would be a screw thread flange instead of a K flange and a M42 pin actuator instead of the k lens lever actuator. Nearly all of the remaining hardware would be the same and the software/firmware would be mostly deleting existing features M42 couldnt do. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cory Papenfuss Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:33 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, J. C. O'Connell wrote: I wasnt discussing price, but if you already have the lenses or want to buy high quality M42 lenses, the higher cost of the body is offset in the system context because the lenses are much lower cost ( or no extra cost if you already have them ) than brand new or recent pentax or canon or nikon lenses in most cases. Yes, low production, high cost electronics items are rare but still do exist. None of my audio gear for example, is mass produced but I still got them. Look at full frame DSLRs or the new Leica digital RF. I would not expect a M42 DSLR to be as cheap as a K100D of course. jco I really doubt adding another '0' to the price of a K100D would be able to make it a cost-effective design. Even if everybody who wanted one and was willing to pay for it (that'd be you and maybe 10 other people on the planet), it'd probably have to cost $20K to make back the engineering costs. It's a similar thing to aircraft avionics. What amounts to basically a well-built CB radio costs $2500 new. A similar model costs $1000 for a used one that's 25 years old. The few companies who produce these low-volume devices charge a lot more than what they would if they were commodity. In some cases (like portable GPS's), for almost identical hardware to a consumer-grade on that costs 1/10th the price. -Cory -- ** ** * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ** ** * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I dont follow that, the uniqueness of the trinitron was it was a one gun system for color which usually used three guns. A one gun monochrome CRT was already standard. Can you elusidate further? jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 9:01 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Trinitron was based on RCA patents for a superior BW set. RCA of course didn't see any need to have a better set and sold them to Sony. The rest is history. Cory Papenfuss wrote: I'm jumping in a bit late on this, but I've got a couple of comments about my opinion of Sony Re Sony, they are a respectable company and noone has any doubt about it. But since the overhaul of thier executive structures, it has been a known fact that they have been struggling and stumbling in consumer electronic market. Margins too low anymore. They've had to cheapify consumer stuff for the past 20 years. At least in their home theater stuff (receivers, amps, DVD players, VCR's), quality is the same or worse as any other cheepie no-name brand... only more expensive because it's a Sony. One of their last great innovations that actually succeeded (IMO) was Trinitron. They were without question the best available CRTs for dozens of years. Most other innovations are me-too's, together with a HUGE smack of arrogance and proprietary stuff (think mini-disc and memory stick). It became a known patter recently that they search for what they perceive to be profitable market, explore them, but if they found they are not for them, they are too quick to fold up. It was not like that before. Look at Cleo (or whatever is called, a Palm PDA) from which they retreated. Their portable audio is overwhelmed by iPod, and much touted Play Station stuff is now seem to be in limbo. Theyb are still a king in the institutional market. They have been producing great imaging products. But they are operating like a fire drill and still seraching for the directions and goals in consumer electronics area. Those are the facts which is substantiated by CFO's uttering. I'm pretty sure that in their professional gear, the quality is still there. Of course the prices are higher and the margins are fatter. At least if you buy a professional-grade Sony product though, you get what you pay for. I wish they did not have a propriatary hot shoe :-). See above about Sony's love of proprietary sh*t. -Cory \rant_mode -- -- The more I know of men, the more I like my dog. -- Anne Louise Germaine de Stael -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
If the camera was the only source of profit, it would need to be so expensive that customers will stay away in droves. Of course a single rich-as-f**k customer could bankroll the whole project, like the recent Zeiss lens which was made bespoke for an oil-rich Arab prince. IIRC it was a 1600mm f2.8 for 6x6cm, and weighed in at over 600kg. Regrettably I lost the link when a virus crashed my OS last week, but you get the idea, I'm sure. Money opens doors and makes stuff happen.. so do you have the funds? regards, Anthony Farr - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:44 PM Subject: RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ no, you dont get it, the only reason why a M42 dslr will be produced is if there is sufficient demand for it and it alone and a profit to be made on it alone as it is. I do not believe lens sales are necessary for that situation to occur. I also dont beleive all DSLR cameras are now or/will always be free razors sold at cost just to sell blades (lenses). An M42 DSLR would be a speciality item specifically for people who only want to buy the new body, cost will be higher, yes, but not necessarily economically unfeasable forever which is what you are implying here. jco -Original Message- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
Although it would be pretty cool if it happened, I don't think an M42 dSLR has a snowball's chance in hell of being made. Why? Simple answer: old technology just doesn't sell well. Modern consumers want convenience, and as far as cameras go, that means full automation, including autofocus. Those of us with an appreciation for the past are too few in number to make an M42 dSLR camera profitable. And really, the bottom line here is profitable. I could give more reasons, if you'd like, but don't take this as an it's a stupid idea! response. I think it'd be pretty cool, as I said, just not economically feasible. John -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260086611089 It seems the Pentax M42 quality lens market is still very strong and getting even stronger lately. I have never seen one of these sell for over $400 until now. ( I bought my first one for $100 in '88 ) Could you imagine what would happen to this SMCT market if somebody did produce a auto aperture supporting M42 DSLR? jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
An M42 DSLR would not be old technology would it? The whole purpose of one would be to use the millions of quality M42 lenses in existance with the highest degree of technology possible with those lenses. I dont think that any new M42 lenses need to be produced, or that AF or lack of it, really matters whatsoever. Its to utilize the old manual focus M42 lensess already in existance. I do think it will happen eventually, because eventually the entire 35mm and smaller SLR formats will be nearly all digital and there are just way too many good auto aperture M42 lenses to ignore forever. BTW, If you actually prefer manual focussing for a lot of situations, and there are many who do, manual focus lenses are better than AF lenses for that application because Manual focus smoothness had to be seriously compromised to be able do AF in AF lenses. jco -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Celio Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:08 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ Although it would be pretty cool if it happened, I don't think an M42 dSLR has a snowball's chance in hell of being made. Why? Simple answer: old technology just doesn't sell well. Modern consumers want convenience, and as far as cameras go, that means full automation, including autofocus. Those of us with an appreciation for the past are too few in number to make an M42 dSLR camera profitable. And really, the bottom line here is profitable. I could give more reasons, if you'd like, but don't take this as an it's a stupid idea! response. I think it'd be pretty cool, as I said, just not economically feasible. John -- http://www.neovenator.com http://www.cafepress.com/neovenatorphoto - Original Message - From: J. C. O'Connell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:29 AM Subject: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+ http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=260086611089 It seems the Pentax M42 quality lens market is still very strong and getting even stronger lately. I have never seen one of these sell for over $400 until now. ( I bought my first one for $100 in '88 ) Could you imagine what would happen to this SMCT market if somebody did produce a auto aperture supporting M42 DSLR? jco -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: 85mm f1.8 SMCT on ebay : $400+
I could give more reasons, if you'd like, but don't take this as an it's a stupid idea! response. I think it'd be pretty cool, as I said, just not economically feasible. Significantly *LESS* feasible than the mythical, argument-generating, trivial-to-add lack of an aperture coupling on current Pentax DSLRs... -Cory * * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA * * Electrical Engineering* * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * * -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
