Re: Talk about crap
I know now, I must have been tired last night... DagT Den 29. jul. 2006 kl. 04.04 skrev graywolf: But you never heard of Albert Einstein, correct? -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- DagT wrote: Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
All too true. Is that what they are called, fast food technicians? Oh, boy. Marnie aka Doe ;-) Don't worry - it's only a matter of time before they become fast food engineers. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 03:34:01 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm They are Alaskans. Over six months of the year wondering what to do.. Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Aaron Reynolds wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Keith McGuinness wrote: I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. Keith, you wouldn't feel that your academic freedom would be infringed if a professor were booted without an examination of the material or even a single person knowing what his claims actually are? Just based on a single line in a newspaper article describing what we can only assume is the most sensational part of his intended lecture, and without context? What if he's presenting it to be debunked by the class as an exercise but loses his job on the strength of this newspaper article -- would you still feel that your academic freedom had not been infringed then? My remarks were in the context of whether or not academic freedom gives us the right to present anything we want, in any way we want. (Some seem to think it does.) I am/was assuming -- probably foolishly! -- that due process was/would be followed. I realise that, regrettably, trial by media is all too common, these days. What I've been trying to say (and for some reason this got me labeled as a 9/11 Denier) is that someone should, you know, find out what he's actually saying before the man is condemned for saying it. Where's the fun in that? Actually, I think that it is reasonably likely that he is doing what people are accusing him of. Keith McG -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Its an elaborate joke. Read the footnote on the main page. Don mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 03:34:01 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm They are Alaskans. Over six months of the year wondering what to do.. Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- Dr E D F Williams www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa/ http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams/ 41660 TOIVAKKA – Finland - +358400706616 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Mine was less elaborate. No footnotes. I wouldn't offend people who live that far North. Not me. No, sir. 8-) From: Don Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 09:10:14 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Its an elaborate joke. Read the footnote on the main page. Don mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 03:34:01 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm They are Alaskans. Over six months of the year wondering what to do.. Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- Dr E D F Williams www.kolumbus.fi/mimosa/ http://personal.inet.fi/cool/don.williams/ 41660 TOIVAKKA ? Finland - +358400706616 -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
mike wilson wrote: Mine was less elaborate. No footnotes. I wouldn't offend people who live that far North. Not me. No, sir. 8-) Speaking of elaborate, jokes, and crap, here's one of my favorites: The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/ -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I kind of think I have just been insulted by an expert. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Bob W wrote: I've never done this before, so if I get it wrong, please excuse me. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. Mark! I think Graywolf is the greatest philosopher in the entire pdml! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 26 July 2006 21:18 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap But he was correct. All you need is all the facts and a powerful enough computer. Boulders are not capable of self-determination and follow pure physical rules. However, if he was applying that to psychology he was an ass, and you did the correct thing. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I think that most of our comments, have the unstated but presumed to be understood proviso If the article is correct. Most of us are talking generalities and think that if someone is using their teaching position proselytize their own agenda they should not be supported by the taxpayers. One would hope that such an issue would be investigated thoroughly before any action was taken. Very few of us on the list think that the news media is without their own agenda. So it seems that your arguments are, to quote someone or another, Much Ado About Nothing. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Aaron Reynolds wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Keith McGuinness wrote: I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. Keith, you wouldn't feel that your academic freedom would be infringed if a professor were booted without an examination of the material or even a single person knowing what his claims actually are? Just based on a single line in a newspaper article describing what we can only assume is the most sensational part of his intended lecture, and without context? What if he's presenting it to be debunked by the class as an exercise but loses his job on the strength of this newspaper article -- would you still feel that your academic freedom had not been infringed then? What I've been trying to say (and for some reason this got me labeled as a 9/11 Denier) is that someone should, you know, find out what he's actually saying before the man is condemned for saying it. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- DagT wrote: but in the US they do in fact have some granted patents on inventions being classified as perpetual motion machines... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Actually the real ones are headquartered in London, IIRC. However the Alaskans show up first in Google, shows you what that's worth. Don Williams wrote: Its an elaborate joke. Read the footnote on the main page. Don mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 03:34:01 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm They are Alaskans. Over six months of the year wondering what to do.. Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Yeh, around here they get $10/hr while those PHD's working at BK make only $8. But then, this is a Liberal Arts University town, so there is a glut of PHD's. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- David Savage wrote: At the moment a good tradesman (Electrician, carpenter, welder, fitter turner etc.) can make more than any university educated fast food technician. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Hum...? Say, Bill, I will be up there it just a couple of day to start working for you. $70 an hour will be fine, especially since I was only making 1/3 of that when I was working as a JIW out of Local 252. However, if you mean you are paying Electrical Contractors $70/hr, I will save the gas and stay here reading the PDML. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- William Robb wrote: - Original Message - From: David Savage Subject: Re: Talk about crap At 07:35 AM 27/07/2006, William Robb wrote: At the moment a good tradesman (Electrician, carpenter, welder, fitter turner etc.) can make more than any university educated fast food technician. ;-) I'm paying journeyman electricians upwards of $70.00 an hour at the moment. I don't know how true this is, but I have heard that plumbers in England can pretty much charge whatever they want, some making 1/4 million pounds a year. The tradesmen don't seem to have a lot of stress in their lives either, which is more than I can say for the desk jockeys that I know. They are also in better physical condition, and don't have to buy memberships at the gym to stay in shape. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
graywolf wrote: Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. Seriously, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of obtaining the patent? If motion without decay from the world around it (entropy, I guess) is not one of the claims, the applicant/patent holder has no claim or recourse against those who wold steal the essence of the idea. Just thinking about it... keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
That is probably true. Another thing is that some patent attorneys are so good at camouflaging real inventive that they end of with a PM .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 17.24 skrev graywolf: Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- DagT wrote: but in the US they do in fact have some granted patents on inventions being classified as perpetual motion machines... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
But some of us have actually met him, and can testify that he is a robot fueled by beer. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- P. J. Alling wrote: Hey, what about my Theory that knarf is an auto reply Eliza program? Mark Roberts wrote: Norman Baugher wrote: From: Tom C Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Just as I thought!! The USSR was in on the conspiracy... Norm Norm. Yeah, right. Everyone knows Norm is just a figment of Frank Theriault's imagination. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 17.43 skrev keith_w: graywolf wrote: Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. Seriously, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of obtaining the patent? If motion without decay from the world around it (entropy, I guess) is not one of the claims, the applicant/patent holder has no claim or recourse against those who wold steal the essence of the idea. Just thinking about it... A good thought, but some of these inventors are so certain that they have invented a PM that they try to fool the patent office into giving them the patent. The claims may be unclear (and difficult to attack or defend) but they still cover the PM. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Frank: http://www.sf-radio.net/futurama/bilder/bender.gif Dave :-) On 7/28/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But some of us have actually met him, and can testify that he is a robot fueled by beer. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/28/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But some of us have actually met him, and can testify that he is a robot fueled by beer. C'mon Tom, If someone was going to build a robot, doncha think they'd have built it better looking and smarter than me? g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Har! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 15:55 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap I kind of think I have just been insulted by an expert. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Bob W wrote: I've never done this before, so if I get it wrong, please excuse me. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. Mark! I think Graywolf is the greatest philosopher in the entire pdml! -- Cheers, Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Probably because Alaska's closer to Jerusalem on a flat earth. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of P. J. Alling Sent: 28 July 2006 16:31 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Actually the real ones are headquartered in London, IIRC. However the Alaskans show up first in Google, shows you what that's worth. Don Williams wrote: Its an elaborate joke. Read the footnote on the main page. Don mike wilson wrote: From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/28 Fri AM 03:34:01 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm They are Alaskans. Over six months of the year wondering what to do.. Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
So it seems that your arguments are, to quote someone or another, Much Ado About Nothing. Probably Mark Twain... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Jul 28, 2006, at 3:05 PM, frank theriault wrote: If someone was going to build a robot, doncha think they'd have built it better looking and smarter than me? With a good amount of Photoshop, Frank can look passably intelligent. However, Dave Chang-Sang will always be too bald. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
That guy gets some totally ace emails: http://www.venganza.org/email_neg.htm -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Franklin Sent: 28 July 2006 13:31 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap mike wilson wrote: Mine was less elaborate. No footnotes. I wouldn't offend people who live that far North. Not me. No, sir. 8-) Speaking of elaborate, jokes, and crap, here's one of my favorites: The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/ -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/28/06, David Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank: http://www.sf-radio.net/futurama/bilder/bender.gif H... A surprisingly accurate likeness... g cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Amazing. I'm astounded that any Swiss patent clerk could possibly be good at physics. Who'd have thought such a thing was possible? They'll have their faces on t-shirts next, I'll bet. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 21:34 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
sh... I didn´t see that one .-) Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 23.19 skrev Bob W: Amazing. I'm astounded that any Swiss patent clerk could possibly be good at physics. Who'd have thought such a thing was possible? They'll have their faces on t-shirts next, I'll bet. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 21:34 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
It's all relative you know. Tom C. From: Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: Talk about crap Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 22:19:38 +0100 Amazing. I'm astounded that any Swiss patent clerk could possibly be good at physics. Who'd have thought such a thing was possible? They'll have their faces on t-shirts next, I'll bet. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 21:34 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/28/06, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's all relative you know. You're related to DagT? cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/28/06, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's all relative you know. You're related to DagT? cheers, frank As a matter of fact I believe I'm related to both of you. :-) Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
DagT wrote: ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. handling or instigating? :-) -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/28/06, Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a matter of fact I believe I'm related to both of you. :-) Wow, your answer to my post was, like, at the speed of light!! cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
No joke, His Noodlelyness has come to me in my dreams. He awakened my dormant pirate spirit and urged me to take action on global warming. I am building a ship to sail down river from Chicago to New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico where I can become a Pirate of the Caribbean. Please pass the pasta, Bob S. On 7/28/06, Doug Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mike wilson wrote: Mine was less elaborate. No footnotes. I wouldn't offend people who live that far North. Not me. No, sir. 8-) Speaking of elaborate, jokes, and crap, here's one of my favorites: The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster http://www.venganza.org/ -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
HAR! back at you grin. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- Bob W wrote: So it seems that your arguments are, to quote someone or another, Much Ado About Nothing. Probably Mark Twain... -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
But you never heard of Albert Einstein, correct? -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- DagT wrote: Not really, I should know. I am a patent attorney and former patent examiner/clerk in Norway, and a partner here: http:// www.protector.biz/uk/ You´ll find my face somewhere on that cite. ...and just to say somethng about the US patent attorneys: They have law degrees as well, making them very good at handling conflicts. DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 22.15 skrev Bob W: Really? You amaze me. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of DagT Sent: 28 July 2006 20:51 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Well, actually the Swiss, and the German, are quite good. Fond or rules and order. In Germany they often have Ph. D´s while in the US they often have bachelors degrees in their technical field... .-) DagT Den 28. jul. 2006 kl. 21.29 skrev Bob W: Perhaps he drew it with brakes and intends to put a big sign on them when he's built it saying Warning - do not apply brakes. Applying brakes invalidates warranty. That would easily get by the patent clerks, who are probably not very good at physics anyway. Especially the Swiss. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 28 July 2006 16:24 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap Interesting, since the US patent laws specifically says PM machines are not patentable, and any such are automatically rejected without consideration. Now it is possible some things have been patented that fall into that category, but the fact that they do has, in that case, been cleverly concealed by the applicant. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
- Original Message - From: keith_w Subject: Re: Talk about crap Sad, but true. My son quit school and got a job driving an ice cream truck, for money he couldn't have made for another 5 or 6 *YEARS* following his chosen line of education and work. Guess what? He loves it and is absolutely certain he made the right choice. On the side, he services pools, in Phoenix. Hot job, but plenty of work, and I've no doubt he will be making 3 times his previous projected earnings, in LESS than 5 years! After all, what is it a young bread winner wants? To make enough bucks to support a family and have a nice home and car. This way he can do it. The other way, who KNOWs when he could have done it? College and $100,000 debt is not for everyone... g Why is it sad? Universities have done an excellent job of brainwashing the masses into thinking that their brand of education is the key to happiness and a good job. Enough people have bought into it that tradesmen are in really short supply, and are very much in demand. I am sure that this is not universal, but around where I am, trademen are guaranteed to be able to work in their chosen field, make a good income, and have job security for life. They also get paid while recieving their education. William Robb -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 26/7/06, keith_w, discombobulated, unleashed: My son quit school and got a job driving an ice cream truck, for money he couldn't have made for another 5 or 6 *YEARS* following his chosen line of education and work. Have you ever seen 'Thunderbolt and Lightfoot' (1974, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bridges) ? ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 26/7/06, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: I don't know how true this is, but I have heard that plumbers in England can pretty much charge whatever they want, some making 1/4 million pounds a year. Norwegian plumbers are all off shooting porn http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4802928.stm [office friendly] -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
So are the Polish ones. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4115164.stm Look at the size of his flange! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cotty Sent: 27 July 2006 08:35 To: pentax list Subject: Re: Talk about crap On 26/7/06, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: I don't know how true this is, but I have heard that plumbers in England can pretty much charge whatever they want, some making 1/4 million pounds a year. Norwegian plumbers are all off shooting porn http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4802928.stm [office friendly] -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
I need a warning about pictures like this. I don't want my wife to see it... DagT Fra: Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] So are the Polish ones. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4115164.stm Look at the size of his flange! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cotty Sent: 27 July 2006 08:35 To: pentax list Subject: Re: Talk about crap On 26/7/06, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: I don't know how true this is, but I have heard that plumbers in England can pretty much charge whatever they want, some making 1/4 million pounds a year. Norwegian plumbers are all off shooting porn http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4802928.stm [office friendly] -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
From: William Robb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/26 Wed PM 11:35:53 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap - Original Message - From: keith_w Subject: Re: Talk about crap I expect, no demand, that any education I pay for is valid and of use, not some pap that must be discarded later because not only isn't it true, but it runs against logic and science. Junk... Then send him to trade school, not university. We need people to make the mundane stuff like houses more than we need another crop of university educated buffoons. What makes you think they would be any good at producing mundane stuff? You should see the arse that is being made here of moving from one office to another... - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
William Robb wrote: Sad, but true. My son quit school and got a job driving an ice cream truck, for money he couldn't have made for another 5 or 6 *YEARS* following his chosen line of education and work. Why is it sad? Universities have done an excellent job of brainwashing the masses into thinking that their brand of education is the key to happiness and a good job. What I want to know is why the hell can't we brainwash the masses into boosting our salaries by 50% or so? Now that would be something worth doing... Keith perhaps I should have done psych McG -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/27 Thu AM 07:55:18 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: Talk about crap I need a warning about pictures like this. I don't want my wife to see it... DagT Don't worry. He will be a lousy plumber. Fra: Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] So are the Polish ones. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4115164.stm Look at the size of his flange! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cotty Sent: 27 July 2006 08:35 To: pentax list Subject: Re: Talk about crap On 26/7/06, William Robb, discombobulated, unleashed: I don't know how true this is, but I have heard that plumbers in England can pretty much charge whatever they want, some making 1/4 million pounds a year. Norwegian plumbers are all off shooting porn http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4802928.stm [office friendly] -- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Cotty wrote: On 26/7/06, keith_w, discombobulated, unleashed: My son quit school and got a job driving an ice cream truck, for money he couldn't have made for another 5 or 6 *YEARS* following his chosen line of education and work. Have you ever seen 'Thunderbolt and Lightfoot' (1974, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bridges) ? ;-) Yes, long ago... Since I can't recall the theme, it appears it's time to get a copy again and review it! Aha, I did a Google search, and NOW I recall it. Fun movie. I'll still get it and rerun it! Thanks for the heads up! keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Aaron Reynolds wrote: I think I know why this conversation is confusing me -- in Canada, colleges and universities are different animals. You go to college for a targeted, practical education. You go to university to acquire letters to place behind your name on your resume. -Aaron Okay. Makes sense. I misspoke. I meant college. keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Jul 26, 2006, at 8:32 PM, Paul Stenquist wrote: His premise is that 9/11 was staged by the US government. He claims that explosives, not airplanes, brought down the buildings. He's been on TV and in some newspapers. I suspect he's history. His vision isn't just different, it's absurd. He'll find plenty of followers in the Muslim world. Maybe he should move to Iraq and become the houseboy for one of the mullahs. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 27/7/06, keith_w, discombobulated, unleashed: Have you ever seen 'Thunderbolt and Lightfoot' (1974, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bridges) ? ;-) Yes, long ago... Since I can't recall the theme, it appears it's time to get a copy again and review it! Aha, I did a Google search, and NOW I recall it. Fun movie. I'll still get it and rerun it! Thanks for the heads up! There's a few comical scenes where one of the robbers poses as an ice cream vendor ;-) -- Cheers, Cotty ___/\__ || (O) | People, Places, Pastiche ||=|http://www.cottysnaps.com _ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Cotty wrote: On 27/7/06, keith_w, discombobulated, unleashed: Have you ever seen 'Thunderbolt and Lightfoot' (1974, Clint Eastwood, Jeff Bridges) ? ;-) Yes, long ago... Since I can't recall the theme, it appears it's time to get a copy again and review it! Aha, I did a Google search, and NOW I recall it. Fun movie. I'll still get it and rerun it! Thanks for the heads up! There's a few comical scenes where one of the robbers poses as an ice cream vendor ;-) Ah yes! My son would get a kick out of it, too. However, he drives a refrigerated truck that delivers bulk ice cream and milk to businesses and schools. keith -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Actually the biggest bullshit is the assumption that a legislature doesn't have the right to pull funding from a state university, on the basis of academic freedom. A legislature can do any damned thing that they can get a majority to vote for, and frequently proves it. Then there's the fact that I'm not sure that spreading actual falsehoods is covered under academic freedom either, and just because an academic believes something is true, doesn't make it so. Finally something to think about. If the US government were truly behind something like this, do you think it would require a loony to talk about it. Based on what I've seen our government leaks like a sieve, it would have been on the front page of the NY Times months ago. If the government were capable of keeping such a secret, do you think this guy wouldn't have met with an unfortunate accident by now. (No need to discredit someone if they're dead). So many holes in this theory, so little time. Bob Shell wrote: On Jul 25, 2006, at 3:49 AM, Don Williams wrote: Someone posted a bit about the 'moon landing was filmed in Death Valley lunatics' the other day. Try this one for /real /bullshit: http://email.latimes.com/cgi-bin1/DM/y/e5td0LgybQ0G2B0HjO40EF Which part do you consider bullshit? What the man proposes to teach, or the university defending his right to teach it? Personally, I think freedom of speech must encompass ideas that the mainstream considers repugnant. Bob -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I wouldn't put a lot of credence in the Pentagon having been that well defended before 9-11. During the cold war the USAF flew combat air patrols over important installations and had 15min warning ready fighters on many airstrips. Either of these options was very expensive, it's expensive to keep a fighter flying and it's almost as expensive to keep it ready to fly in 15min from an airfield, even in terms the US Gov. understands. After the cold war most of these precautions were dropped as cost ineffective, not that they would have been very effective against ICBMs anyway. The Russians stopped targeting us and we stopped targeting them, who else was there? Canada? (Rhetorical Question). frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which part do you consider bullshit? What the man proposes to teach, or the university defending his right to teach it? Personally, I think freedom of speech must encompass ideas that the mainstream considers repugnant. Right you are, Bob! For one thing, at university, they call them professors for a reason. To profess is merely to affirm a belief. At a post-secondary level, the assumption is that students are at a level that they can research the professors affirmations and form their own opinions as to whether the professor is right or wrong. Up to the end of high school we have teachers. To teach is to impart knowledge. The distinction between teachers and professors is an important one. This guy in Wisconson may (or may not be) a nutbar, but I defend his right to lecture whatever he wants. Moreso, I defend his university's right to pay him and have him lecture there. The fact that tax dollars go to that university does not give the taxpayers or the legislature the right to demand that the guy gets sacked. At most, it gives them the right to pull those tax dollars out of the place, but then 90% or more of the students will be harmed due to (what's portrayed as) the rantings of this loonie. The other thing, of course, is that perhaps, just perhaps, if someone actually sat in on this guy's course and read the materials, he might have a few accurate things to say, and he might have evidence to back up his assertions. Stranger things have happened. It's hard to judge based on a newspaper article - and a biased one, at that. I've got to admit, I always wondered how it is that the Pentagon isn't one of the best defended buildings in the world, with all the latest detection devices and radar and defences. I've always thought it a bit strange that something as complex and difficult to pilot as a modern airliner, flown by a rank amateur, managed to get through those defences and score a direct hit. I'm not saying this guy's right, but it makes one wonder. cheers, frank -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
If Moon landing deniers are today's flat earth people, what the heck are these wackos? http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm Jack Davis wrote: Tom, These folks are today's flat earth people. They are incapable of accepting logic and, in fact, covet the desperate claims of the rational as validation and a measure of their impact. I wouldn't expend further energy honoring their spewings with a response. Jack --- Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing is the moon landing fraud claims are so ludicrous as to be laughable. No need to debunk each claim one by one. The entire Apollo project was so demonstrably big, over a number of years, employing 1000's, if not tens of 1000's of people, not to mention those overseas connected with the project and the landings themselves that were not part of NASA or the US government. How would it be possible to maintain a conspiracy that large? The consciences of hundreds of whistleblowers would have prompted them to scream and shout. If the moon landig was myth, then what about the prior and subsequent space programs including the shuttle, mars, voyager, etc.? The fact that the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment equipment set up on the moon by Apollo 11 astronauts is still being used today by independent universities, provides ample proof. Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Tom C. From: Bob Shell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:46:06 -0400 On Jul 25, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Aaron Reynolds wrote: I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. Same here. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. Right. Let the nuts speak. Otherwise you may never know what they might say. Bob -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
He's more advanced than Eliza... more like MegaHAL. USER: Live and die for Slayer! MEGAHAL: A COMPUTER CANNOT DIE FOR SLAYER -Aaron -Original Message- From: P. J. Alling [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: Talk about crap Date: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:20 pm Size: 584 bytes To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Hey, what about my Theory that knarf is an auto reply Eliza program? Mark Roberts wrote: Norman Baugher wrote: From: Tom C Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Just as I thought!! The USSR was in on the conspiracy... Norm Norm. Yeah, right. Everyone knows Norm is just a figment of Frank Theriault's imagination. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Hey, what about my Theory that knarf is an auto reply Eliza program? Mark Roberts wrote: Norman Baugher wrote: From: Tom C Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Just as I thought!! The USSR was in on the conspiracy... Norm Norm. Yeah, right. Everyone knows Norm is just a figment of Frank Theriault's imagination. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I don't have a problem with free speech, I have a problem with 1.) involuntarily paying for it, (supporting them with tax dollars), and 2.) Giving them a captive audience. Otherwise people can say anything they want. It's even easier today, than ever before. Anyone who wants to spend a few bucks a month can start a web site and publish anything they want. Bob W wrote: I agree with Aaron on this. I'd go a bit further. If you believe in free speech you must defend the right of people who are saying things you really don't want to hear, and which may well be crackpot, offensive or plain stupid. For one thing, it gets these people out into the open so you know who they are, and who/what you might have to defend yourself against. Subjecting our own opinions and ideas to attack means we strengthen those that are of value, and discard those that aren't. This has been one of the most powerful weapons in the triumph of democracy - it grows stronger because it welcomes scrutiny and critical examination. Compare this to totalitarian and theocratic regimes. Another aspect of free speech, which people often don't consider, is our right to hear things and judge them for ourselves, and not to have some nanny state or self-proclaimed authority decide what is and is not good for our ears. We are adults, so we have the right to listen to this sort of guff if we want to, and the right to believe it, or to ignore it, or to mock it as we see fit. Defending free speech for others is how we defend free thinking for ourselves. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Aaron Reynolds That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
In a message dated 7/26/2006 2:54:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That's for post grad school. When you're a university freshman, and a couple of levels up from there, you have to be taught or exposed to truth as we know it. Like all well-learned subjects, first get thoroughly grounded in basic facts. Build on them. The name of he subject is unimportant. Grounding, or immersion in fundamental truths as pertains to the subject at hand, is of paramount importance. keith whaley That's not quite true. I know this thread is probably done, but I read several people saying that. My experience with college was, and I first started with junior college, that our teachers encouraged us in critical thinking. I.E. In examining all sides, defending our position (such as in answering essay questions), and questioning their opinion. And this was when I was a freshman new at college, and not with just one teacher, but several. Now maybe at big universities with huge lecture halls they don't do that, but they did that at our junior college. Later I went to a state college and a state university. So I've often wondered if, comparatively, I didn't get a better education that way, by starting at a JC first. ;-) It's why when I hit college, I finally learned to love school and learning. Before, in high school, and earlier, it was all rote learning. And rote learning had definitely been boring. So I think some are seriously underestimating college freshman and teachers. Marnie aka Doe -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I would. It's a good life. I'm often sorry I passed on it. Mark Roberts wrote: Paul Stenquist wrote: I wouldn't hire a lunatic to teach a college course. Who else would take the job? ;-) -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Test not break. Bob W wrote: But it's part of the job description for academics to question and test the status quo, conventional thinking etc. -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom C Sent: 25 July 2006 21:49 To: pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: Talk about crap I agree with everything you wrote Bob. It's just this guy should go stand on a street corner somewhere and preach his crap instead of getting paid to do it in an institution of so-called higher learning. Tom C. -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Obviously it was a fig newton of your imagination, (and Cotty's as well I would imagine). frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Norm. Yeah, right. Everyone knows Norm is just a figment of Frank Theriault's imagination. Then who called Cotty from GFM at 5:00am GMT? cheers, frank (actually, much of that evening was a figment of my imagination) -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
In a message dated 7/26/2006 6:54:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At the moment a good tradesman (Electrician, carpenter, welder, fitter turner etc.) can make more than any university educated fast food technician. ;-) Dave == All too true. Is that what they are called, fast food technicians? Oh, boy. Marnie aka Doe ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I'd stay away from that if I were you, far away... Aaron Reynolds wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:06 AM, keith_w wrote: When I pay for my child to get an education, I do NOT wish that so-caalled education to consist of piling bushels of input on him, so he can sort them out with his unformed and untested mind. Would I be starting a crapalanche if I said something about Intelligent Design? -Aaron -- When you're worried or in doubt, Run in circles, (scream and shout). -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
P. J. Alling wrote: It's even easier today, than ever before. Anyone who wants to spend a few bucks a month can start a web site and publish anything they want. Witness my latest effort, only just getting off the ground: http://SurlyDoug.com -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Talk about crap
Fra: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. Then so am I. Academia not only has to allow unpopular view, it depends upon it. All science is based on the ciritical discussion of any subject. If you throw out the discussions you may very well throw out thoughts and solutions that may turn out to be valuable. If the students in this case learns to be critical toward the professors views, and hopefully to any professors view, they have learned something very valuable, as science is based on a sceptical view on authorities. If the discussions about his methods make them more aware of the methods they use themselves it is also a good thing, because the scientific method (in any science) is more valuable than the recent findings and conclusions. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. And it rankles me to hear that academics deserve some special place in the universe. I started out in acedemia in public funded projects and programs. Later I funded many college projects/programs world wide.. It was not my general experience that academics derserve consideration in the public funding arena.. There are always exceptions, but, in my experience, the exceptions are seldom dependant on public funding to deliver their message. so to speak. And, I will always defend a tax payer's previledge to offer guidance at to how public funds are spent ... especially at the polls. Of course, this is just one person's opinion.. Otis I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Otis C. Wright, Jr. wrote: And it rankles me to hear that academics deserve some special place in the universe. [...] And, I will always defend a tax payer's previledge to offer guidance at to how public funds are spent ... especially at the polls. I'm with you, Otis. -- Thanks, DougF (KG4LMZ) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/26 Wed PM 12:04:42 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Re: Talk about crap Fra: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. Then so am I. Academia not only has to allow unpopular view, it depends upon it. All science is based on the ciritical discussion of any subject. If you throw out the discussions you may very well throw out thoughts and solutions that may turn out to be valuable. If the students in this case learns to be critical toward the professors views, and hopefully to any professors view, they have learned something very valuable, as science is based on a sceptical view on authorities. If the discussions about his methods make them more aware of the methods they use themselves it is also a good thing, because the scientific method (in any science) is more valuable than the recent findings and conclusions. DagT You can just picture the scene a few decades ago: Mad Professor: I've had an idea about his photography business. Everyone is sick of waiting for film to be processed, accidentally getting light on it, having to pay through the nose for processing. Why don't we try to capture the image on one of those silicon devices the Limeys have invented and then make a device that prints it by spitting ink at paper? All the Bubbas in the lecture theatre roll about like Cadbury's Smash Martians, while the Japanese exchange student writes in his/her notebook - Email sent from www.ntlworld.com Virus-checked using McAfee(R) Software Visit www.ntlworld.com/security for more information -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Re: Talk about crap
Fra: mike wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: DagT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2006/07/26 Wed PM 12:04:42 GMT To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Re: Talk about crap Fra: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. Then so am I. Academia not only has to allow unpopular view, it depends upon it. All science is based on the ciritical discussion of any subject. If you throw out the discussions you may very well throw out thoughts and solutions that may turn out to be valuable. If the students in this case learns to be critical toward the professors views, and hopefully to any professors view, they have learned something very valuable, as science is based on a sceptical view on authorities. If the discussions about his methods make them more aware of the methods they use themselves it is also a good thing, because the scientific method (in any science) is more valuable than the recent findings and conclusions. DagT You can just picture the scene a few decades ago: Mad Professor: I've had an idea about his photography business. Everyone is sick of waiting for film to be processed, accidentally getting light on it, having to pay through the nose for processing. Why don't we try to capture the image on one of those silicon devices the Limeys have invented and then make a device that prints it by spitting ink at paper? All the Bubbas in the lecture theatre roll about like Cadbury's Smash Martians, while the Japanese exchange student writes in his/her notebook If in the US The Eastman Kodak Company would probably withdraw their fundings from his university and the mad professor would be out on the street. DagT -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I agree Frank. But you have to draw a line somewhere. Academia has to be a bit selective. An intelligent point of view should be at least a prerequisite. There's a big difference between someone whose views don't coincide with one's own and someone who is spouting utter nonsense. Disparate views yes, but I'm not paying for nonsense. -- Original message -- From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Hey folks. Learning comes in many different forms. Of course you let this idiot teach. Things like this thrive in dark corners (even on the internet) where they can go unchallenged. In this case this theory is being aired in a public forum where it can be challenged. Most people don't read the journals where this guy publishes. Besides, students MUST be exposed to this kind thing. Life doesn't come in balanced packages. It's typically one side expressing their viewpoint supported by convenient facts and convenient omissions. There are many experts in the world that can make any position sound well defended and reasonable and have millions believe them. Just look at the middle east. Somebody has to publically debunk this guy in a way that the students can learn from. If no one can do it or if no one simply does do it, well, that's where new governments and religions come from. Steven Desjardins Department of Chemistry Washington and Lee University Lexington, VA 24450 (540) 458-8873 FAX: (540) 458-8878 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
From: Scott Loveless On 7/25/06, Mark Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Norman Baugher wrote: From: Tom C Not to mention that the USSR never doubted it as a fact. Just as I thought!! The USSR was in on the conspiracy... Norm Norm. Yeah, right. Everyone knows Norm is just a figment of Frank Theriault's imagination. For the record, Frank's imagination is very vivid. I've been believing those cigarettes were real ever since GFM. Thanks, Norm! (Or Frank. Or whomever I'm imagining myself confused about.) Norm? Who's Norm? What cigarettes? Frank's? N -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
The real question is why they hired such a nincompoop in the first place. Having hired him, they should let him say what he likes. John On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 14:28:39 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree Frank. But you have to draw a line somewhere. Academia has to be a bit selective. An intelligent point of view should be at least a prerequisite. There's a big difference between someone whose views don't coincide with one's own and someone who is spouting utter nonsense. Disparate views yes, but I'm not paying for nonsense. -- Original message -- From: frank theriault [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Jul 26, 2006, at 10:41 AM, graywolf wrote: Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? You should see what I'm already paying to have taught at U of T. Sure, if you're an international expert in the field and don't mind smartass students tearing up your work. A friend of mine was notorious for basically throwing five years of genetic research at U of T into disrepute because he showed that the fruitfly population in their lab was so inbred that it mutated at random and was no good for experiments, and that the results of any recent experiments were invalid. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Steve Desjardins wrote: Hey folks. Learning comes in many different forms. Of course you let this idiot teach. Things like this thrive in dark corners (even on the internet) where they can go unchallenged. In this case this theory is being aired in a public forum where it can be challenged. Most people don't read the journals where this guy publishes. Besides, students MUST be exposed to this kind thing. Life doesn't come in balanced packages. It's typically one side expressing their viewpoint supported by convenient facts and convenient omissions. When I pay for my child to get an education, I do NOT wish that so-caalled education to consist of piling bushels of input on him, so he can sort them out with his unformed and untested mind. Kids of University age are pretty much incapable of assessing whether what a professor is trying to teach them is precious or fool's gold. They don't know enough... If they are going to be expected to figure it out for themselves by trial and error, double the time in University to 8 years. I expect, no demand, that any education I pay for is valid and of use, not some pap that must be discarded later because not only isn't it true, but it runs against logic and science. Junk... I want that decision made ahead of time, so as to maximize the 4 years he has to spend. Even one class that's junk science (or junk anything) is one too many. By the time the student gains enough knowledge on his own to ferret out who's a charlatan, he's wasted a lot of precious time. There are many experts in the world that can make any position sound well defended and reasonable and have millions believe them. Just look at the middle east. Somebody has to publically debunk this guy in a way that the students can learn from. If no one can do it or if no one simply does do it, well, that's where new governments and religions come from. And we sure need more of those, don't we... Steven Desjardins keith whaley -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/26/06, keith_w [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I expect, no demand, that any education I pay for is valid and of use... I hope he's not doing an arts degree then. :-) Dave (I don't have any degree ;-) -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:06 AM, keith_w wrote: When I pay for my child to get an education, I do NOT wish that so-caalled education to consist of piling bushels of input on him, so he can sort them out with his unformed and untested mind. Would I be starting a crapalanche if I said something about Intelligent Design? -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
In a message dated 7/26/2006 7:44:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? -- graywolf === Now that's just stupid. Everyone knows John had Marilyn murdered because she had transferred her affections to Robert and he was afraid of a scandal that would involve the whole family. A one night hanky panky was okay, but the implication of two serious affairs with both the Attorney General and the Prez could have exploded politically in their faces. Marnie aka Doe ;-) Hmmm, actually that sounds sort of believable. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
And, of course, for the maths department you need to hire the resident loon on sci.math who claims to have a simple proof of Fermat's last theorem (insert obligatory joke here about the margins of this post being too small to contain the proof). There's a reason why the patent department returns claims about perpetual motion machines, unopened, and it's not to suppress freedom of speech - it's to avoid wasting everybody's time. On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:41:28AM -0400, graywolf wrote: Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Aaron Reynolds wrote: On Jul 26, 2006, at 11:06 AM, keith_w wrote: When I pay for my child to get an education, I do NOT wish that so-called education to consist of piling bushels of input on him, so he can sort them out with his unformed and untested mind. Would I be starting a crapalanche if I said something about Intelligent Design? -Aaron Hah, hah...not with me, Aaron, but undoubtedly so with some others on this list. Anyone can feel free to email me privately, if you want. I have plenty of ideas aforming re Intelligent Design, so I'm open to discussion. keith whaley - still learning at my ripe ol' age! smile -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
There is a movie out called Was it only a paper moon..Look for it on the web. At 09:06 AM 7/25/06, you wrote: On Jul 25, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Bob Shell wrote: Personally, I don't doubt for a minute that men actually landed on the moon, walked around, drove around, hit golf balls, etc. But at the same time I do think some of the moon photographs are fakes. I've read some interesting and compelling arguments for the fakery of the moon photographs, but I've read even more interesting and compelling debunkings of those arguments. That's part of why it's so important to let people talk about this stuff -- you get specifics that you can examine and attempt to counter. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Sorry, but this is how education works. You can't say believe what I tell you, Oh untested mind, because I am an expert who knows all while this other idiot is full of crap. You have to explain why that idiot's theories are crap. We don't have a big book on the shelf that says Truth on the spine. Actually, that's not true; we have thousands of them. That's why the students are here to learn how to think, not just to learn facts. Here is one simple observation I have made. There are large groups of people on this planet on the order of billions who cannot agree on the most basic facts of human existence. If I tried to simply indoctrinate students with my perspective on the truth I would get angry phones calls from parents asking why I am teaching their kids this crap. This particular example is a bit extreme but that makes it even more important to say this is why he is wrong rather than to say we're going to fire this guy becuase we don't like what he says. If I were 19, I know what I would think about the latter case. keith_w [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7/26/2006 11:06:42 AM Steve Desjardins wrote: Hey folks. Learning comes in many different forms. Of course you let this idiot teach. Things like this thrive in dark corners (even on the internet) where they can go unchallenged. In this case this theory is being aired in a public forum where it can be challenged. Most people don't read the journals where this guy publishes. Besides, students MUST be exposed to this kind thing. Life doesn't come in balanced packages. It's typically one side expressing their viewpoint supported by convenient facts and convenient omissions. When I pay for my child to get an education, I do NOT wish that so-caalled education to consist of piling bushels of input on him, so he can sort them out with his unformed and untested mind. Kids of University age are pretty much incapable of assessing whether what a professor is trying to teach them is precious or fool's gold. They don't know enough... If they are going to be expected to figure it out for themselves by trial and error, double the time in University to 8 years. I expect, no demand, that any education I pay for is valid and of use, not some pap that must be discarded later because not only isn't it true, but it runs against logic and science. Junk... I want that decision made ahead of time, so as to maximize the 4 years he has to spend. Even one class that's junk science (or junk anything) is one too many. By the time the student gains enough knowledge on his own to ferret out who's a charlatan, he's wasted a lot of precious time. There are many experts in the world that can make any position sound well defended and reasonable and have millions believe them. Just look at the middle east. Somebody has to publically debunk this guy in a way that the students can learn from. If no one can do it or if no one simply does do it, well, that's where new governments and religions come from. And we sure need more of those, don't we... Steven Desjardins keith whaley -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/26/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? Our universities are more heavily funded with tax dollars than yours are in the States, IIRC, and no, I wouldn't mind if anyone here taught those courses, partially funded by the public purse. Universities teach all sorts of things that I don't believe in, like sociology, psychology and (white male's) history, but I don't complain about that. I remember the very first university lecture that I attended: it was intro psychology. Within the first 5 minutes the prof said, The first thing you must understand is that we live in a deterministic universe. Every thing is predetermined. The reason we can't predict the exact path of a boulder bouncing down a hill is that we don't know all the variables. If we knew them all with perfect accuracy, and if we could calculate the effect of all of them, we could perfectly predict the path of the careening boulder. The universe is like that, and so are human beings. That was presented as fact, not opinion. To me it was as much folly as teaching Marilyn Munroe conspiracy theories or teaching that US Gov't bombs helped fell the WTC. I didn't try to muzzle the prof, get that course off the curriculum or anything like that. I dropped the course, changed majors, and took philosophy (and look where it got me today!! g). cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Your psychology professor must have been a Jansenist. My linguistics tutor was deaf, which always struck me as probably a disadvantage for someone in his field. However, now that I too am practically deaf I've started to revise my opinion. -- Cheers, Bob Our universities are more heavily funded with tax dollars than yours are in the States, IIRC, and no, I wouldn't mind if anyone here taught those courses, partially funded by the public purse. Universities teach all sorts of things that I don't believe in, like sociology, psychology and (white male's) history, but I don't complain about that. I remember the very first university lecture that I attended: it was intro psychology. Within the first 5 minutes the prof said, The first thing you must understand is that we live in a deterministic universe. Every thing is predetermined. The reason we can't predict the exact path of a boulder bouncing down a hill is that we don't know all the variables. If we knew them all with perfect accuracy, and if we could calculate the effect of all of them, we could perfectly predict the path of the careening boulder. The universe is like that, and so are human beings. That was presented as fact, not opinion. To me it was as much folly as teaching Marilyn Munroe conspiracy theories or teaching that US Gov't bombs helped fell the WTC. I didn't try to muzzle the prof, get that course off the curriculum or anything like that. I dropped the course, changed majors, and took philosophy (and look where it got me today!! g). cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
But he was correct. All you need is all the facts and a powerful enough computer. Boulders are not capable of self-determination and follow pure physical rules. However, if he was applying that to psychology he was an ass, and you did the correct thing. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- frank theriault wrote: On 7/26/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? Our universities are more heavily funded with tax dollars than yours are in the States, IIRC, and no, I wouldn't mind if anyone here taught those courses, partially funded by the public purse. Universities teach all sorts of things that I don't believe in, like sociology, psychology and (white male's) history, but I don't complain about that. I remember the very first university lecture that I attended: it was intro psychology. Within the first 5 minutes the prof said, The first thing you must understand is that we live in a deterministic universe. Every thing is predetermined. The reason we can't predict the exact path of a boulder bouncing down a hill is that we don't know all the variables. If we knew them all with perfect accuracy, and if we could calculate the effect of all of them, we could perfectly predict the path of the careening boulder. The universe is like that, and so are human beings. That was presented as fact, not opinion. To me it was as much folly as teaching Marilyn Munroe conspiracy theories or teaching that US Gov't bombs helped fell the WTC. I didn't try to muzzle the prof, get that course off the curriculum or anything like that. I dropped the course, changed majors, and took philosophy (and look where it got me today!! g). cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/26/06, Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your psychology professor must have been a Jansenist. snip Or a Calvinist. cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
I've never done this before, so if I get it wrong, please excuse me. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. Mark! I think Graywolf is the greatest philosopher in the entire pdml! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 26 July 2006 21:18 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap But he was correct. All you need is all the facts and a powerful enough computer. Boulders are not capable of self-determination and follow pure physical rules. However, if he was applying that to psychology he was an ass, and you did the correct thing. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On 7/26/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But he was correct. All you need is all the facts and a powerful enough computer. Boulders are not capable of self-determination and follow pure physical rules. Correct! However, if he was applying that to psychology he was an ass, So I thought. and you did the correct thing. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. LOL!! That's the best one I've heard today!! cheers, frank -- Sharpness is a bourgeois concept. -Henri Cartier-Bresson -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
RE: Talk about crap
Darn you Bob! You beat me to it! Tom C. From: Bob W [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' pdml@pdml.net Subject: RE: Talk about crap Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 21:26:16 +0100 I've never done this before, so if I get it wrong, please excuse me. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. Mark! I think Graywolf is the greatest philosopher in the entire pdml! -- Cheers, Bob -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of graywolf Sent: 26 July 2006 21:18 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: Talk about crap But he was correct. All you need is all the facts and a powerful enough computer. Boulders are not capable of self-determination and follow pure physical rules. However, if he was applying that to psychology he was an ass, and you did the correct thing. If you are going to be taught nonsense, philosophy is the proper place to learn it. -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. Our job, as academics, is to teach NOT preach. It sounds to me as if this guy is doing the latter more than the former. Also, we have an obligation to review and present the facts fairly. It also does NOT sound as if he is doing that. I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. In part, my academic freedom means that I should not be compelled to espouse a particular view, in my area of expertise, for political or other reasons. For instance, if I think a particular development is going to do bad things to the nearby mangroves, I can say so and use my expert knowledge to support my view. The government should not be able to shut me up because it favours that particular project. Keith McG -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Steve Desjardins wrote: Sorry, but this is how education works. You can't say believe what I tell you, Oh untested mind, because I am an expert who knows all while this other idiot is full of crap. You have to explain why that idiot's theories are crap. That's for post grad school. When you're a university freshman, and a couple of levels up from there, you have to be taught or exposed to truth as we know it. Like all well-learned subjects, first get thoroughly grounded in basic facts. Build on them. The name of he subject is unimportant. Grounding, or immersion in fundamental truths as pertains to the subject at hand, is of paramount importance. You most definitely do *not* say, I'm going to teach you how to add 2+1, 2+2 and 2+3. It's up to you to figure out which of the three answers I give you is the correct answer. We don't have a big book on the shelf that says Truth on the spine. No, neither are we expected to discern what any given truth is, when our analyzing skills are so under-developed. That's what we're in university for. To develop ways ~ tools ~ for separating the wheat from the chaff... Ways to tell who the liar is, who the ignorant one is. Who's the inept teacher. There are many. I know from experience. Yet, when I was 18 and 19 I sure didn't. That experience came years later... Actually, that's not true; we have thousands of them. That's why the students are here to learn how to think, not just to learn facts. Here is one simple observation I have made. There are large groups of people on this planet on the order of billions who cannot agree on the most basic facts of human existence. If I tried to simply indoctrinate students with my perspective on the truth I would get angry phones calls from parents asking why I am teaching their kids this crap. This particular example is a bit extreme but that makes it even more important to say this is why he is wrong rather than to say we're going to fire this guy becuase we don't like what he says. If I were 19, I know what I would think about the latter case. keith_w [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7/26/2006 11:06:42 AM Steve Desjardins wrote: Hey folks. Learning comes in many different forms. Of course you let this idiot teach. Things like this thrive in dark corners (even on the internet) where they can go unchallenged. In this case this theory is being aired in a public forum where it can be challenged. What public forum? I'm missing something! Most people don't read the journals where this guy publishes. Besides, students MUST be exposed to this kind thing. Not when they are undergraduate Freshmen. Life doesn't come in balanced packages. It's typically one side expressing their viewpoint supported by convenient facts and convenient omissions. Right. First give them the tools to tell the difference. To work out the discrepancies by themselves. But, that comes later. There are many experts in the world that can make any position sound well defended and reasonable and have millions believe them. Just look at the middle east. Don't know what this means. The movers and shakers over there use ultra-rabid religious threats and promises to bring their believers to their knees. Using the Middle East as an analogy is not doing it... Somebody has to publically debunk this guy in a way that the ≥ students can learn from. Publically? I thought we were taking about a university professor. keith whaley -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:30:37 +0100, John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, of course, for the maths department you need to hire the resident loon on sci.math who claims to have a simple proof of Fermat's last theorem (insert obligatory joke here about the margins of this post being too small to contain the proof). There's a reason why the patent department returns claims about perpetual motion machines, unopened, and it's not to suppress freedom of speech - it's to avoid wasting everybody's time. I had the impression that the US Patent Department registers every patent application it receives. That's why US patent law is such a mess. John On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:41:28AM -0400, graywolf wrote: Then you would not object to paying me to teach a course about Perpetual Motion Engineering at the University of Toronto? Or how about a couse about how Jackie had Marilyn murdered because John was going to devorce her and marry Marilyn (which is no where near as far fetched as the 9/11 conspiracy stuff)? -- graywolf http://www.graywolfphoto.com http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf Idiot Proof == Expert Proof --- frank theriault wrote: On 7/25/06, graywolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will defend the guys right to get up on a soap box, or write on the Internet, but I do not think he should be given official sanction or tax payer dollars to do so. Are we required to support every crackpot who wishes to tell us about his hallucinations? It rankles me that people use the not with my tax dollars argument to try to muzzle academics whose views don't coincide with theirs. I didn't realize that part of the deal with public funds going to universities was to allow the public to set curriculum, or otherwise tell profs what to say (or not to say). In fact, I thought that tax dollars going to post-secondary institutions was all about recognizing that the particular values and freedoms of academia were worth preserving and promoting, not so that the government or the people could use that funding as a platform to promote personal or popular agendas or censor unpopular thoughts. I guess I'm naive. cheers, frank -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
On Jul 26, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Keith McGuinness wrote: I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. Keith, you wouldn't feel that your academic freedom would be infringed if a professor were booted without an examination of the material or even a single person knowing what his claims actually are? Just based on a single line in a newspaper article describing what we can only assume is the most sensational part of his intended lecture, and without context? What if he's presenting it to be debunked by the class as an exercise but loses his job on the strength of this newspaper article -- would you still feel that your academic freedom had not been infringed then? What I've been trying to say (and for some reason this got me labeled as a 9/11 Denier) is that someone should, you know, find out what he's actually saying before the man is condemned for saying it. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Den 26. jul. 2006 kl. 23.49 skrev John Forbes: On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:30:37 +0100, John Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, of course, for the maths department you need to hire the resident loon on sci.math who claims to have a simple proof of Fermat's last theorem (insert obligatory joke here about the margins of this post being too small to contain the proof). There's a reason why the patent department returns claims about perpetual motion machines, unopened, and it's not to suppress freedom of speech - it's to avoid wasting everybody's time. I had the impression that the US Patent Department registers every patent application it receives. That's why US patent law is such a mess. John Not completely true, but it may seem that way sometimes. Regarding perpetual motion machines it is a fact that the international patent classification system has classes for such things. Usually getting that class on your application leads to a final rejection, but in the US they do in fact have some granted patents on inventions being classified as perpetual motion machines... DagT http://dag.foto.no Beware of internet links. You never know what is on the other side. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
Keith Whaley wrote: No, neither are we expected to discern what any given truth is, when our analyzing skills are so under-developed. That's what we're in university for. To develop ways ~ tools ~ for separating the wheat from the chaff... Ways to tell who the liar is, who the ignorant one is. Who's the inept teacher. There are many. I know from experience. Yet, when I was 18 and 19 I sure didn't. That experience came years later... I find this interesting on several counts. First there are oodles (tech term) of highly educated individuals who still can't discern truth from falsehood (whether they were/are the teacher or student). Going to an institution of higher learning is no guarantee of somehow becoming intellectually superior (if such a thing actually exists). In some cases I think it may lead to the opposite result. That education was PAID FOR DEARLY, so I must believe everything I'm told. Second, I actually believe most 18 or 19 year olds SHOULD have the wherewithall to be able to sort out truth from falsehood, proven fact from conjecture. They definitely have more experience than a 3, 8, 12 year old. I agree that practice and experience certainly enhance one's ability. In the case of this professor, if any of his students believes what he says (I saw a television interview in which the claims came out of his own mouth), then they deserve to be booted out as well and their seats given to individuals possessing brains. As far as getting paid is concerned, if I were to go about my job, taking the time to explore every remote possiblility, design, methodology, for creating a product, and stood up with an approach that was so counter to what is known or believed to be true, I would shortly be unemployed. Tom C. Tom C. -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
I saw him on televison Aaron. The claims came from his own mouth. He was not teaching the class how to discern truth from falsehood. Tom C. From: Aaron Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:55:20 -0400 On Jul 26, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Keith McGuinness wrote: I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. Keith, you wouldn't feel that your academic freedom would be infringed if a professor were booted without an examination of the material or even a single person knowing what his claims actually are? Just based on a single line in a newspaper article describing what we can only assume is the most sensational part of his intended lecture, and without context? What if he's presenting it to be debunked by the class as an exercise but loses his job on the strength of this newspaper article -- would you still feel that your academic freedom had not been infringed then? What I've been trying to say (and for some reason this got me labeled as a 9/11 Denier) is that someone should, you know, find out what he's actually saying before the man is condemned for saying it. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
Re: Talk about crap
And what were they? The article is very vague. -Aaron -Original Message- From: Tom C [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: Talk about crap Date: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:33 pm Size: 1K To: pdml@pdml.net I saw him on televison Aaron. The claims came from his own mouth. He was not teaching the class how to discern truth from falsehood. Tom C. From: Aaron Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List pdml@pdml.net Subject: Re: Talk about crap Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2006 17:55:20 -0400 On Jul 26, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Keith McGuinness wrote: I don't feel that my academic freedom would be infringed in the least if he got the boot. Keith, you wouldn't feel that your academic freedom would be infringed if a professor were booted without an examination of the material or even a single person knowing what his claims actually are? Just based on a single line in a newspaper article describing what we can only assume is the most sensational part of his intended lecture, and without context? What if he's presenting it to be debunked by the class as an exercise but loses his job on the strength of this newspaper article -- would you still feel that your academic freedom had not been infringed then? What I've been trying to say (and for some reason this got me labeled as a 9/11 Denier) is that someone should, you know, find out what he's actually saying before the man is condemned for saying it. -Aaron -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net -- PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List PDML@pdml.net http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
