RE: Logo considerations
-Original Message-
From: Conrad Schneiker [mailto:conrad.schnei...@gmail.com]
Here's my latest suggestion:
http://www.athenalab.com/Rakudo_logo_2.htm
It combines Damian Conway's suggestions (please see below)
and Ross Kendall's suggestions at
(http://www.rakudo.org/some-rakudo-logo-ideas).
For a smaller sized Rakudo logo,
just remove the text between the proposed Perl 6 logo
and the Parrot logo.
The proposed Perl 6 logo is a coronene molecule
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronene).
PS: Suggested {Perl6, Parrot, Parrot languages, and CXAN}
ecosystem slogan: brainware of the semantic web.
Forgot to mention that (per Larry's suggestions)
you could also regard the Perl 6 logo as a
stylized flower, and you could round the
outer corners a bit to soften the logo.
Best regards,
Conrad
Conrad Schneiker
www.AthenaLab.com
Announcing the Winners of the $1,000 Prize for a Perl 6
new language patterns, and
providing inspiration for novice Perl 6 hackers. One day, it
might well sport a set of features that other wiki
implementations can only dream of having. The Perl 6
language makes such a vision seem quite probable.
== End of overview
Further information
The original version of this announcement:
http://www.AthenaLab.com/Perl_6_Wiki_Award.htm
The November page:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?november
Carl Mäsaks blog:
http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/
The newly-designated primary site for Rakudo Perl 6
information (in early set up stage):
http://rakudo.org/
The official Perl 6 wiki:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6
The Long Perl 6 Super-Feature List:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?the_long_perl_6_super_feature_list
Rakudo Perl 6 Feature Status:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?rakudo_feature_status
The origins of this $1,000 prize:
http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?conrad_schneiker#about_that_1_000_prize
PS: Thanks to {Andy Lester of http://perlbuzz.com/ and
associates} for setting up the official {Perl 5 and Perl 6}
wikis in 2006, and to {Paul Fenwick and associates} at
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6 for earlier versions.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.AthenaLab.com
Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Stackoverflow.com Perl 6 threads of interest
Thought some of you might find this interesting For newbies, here's the About page for Stackoverflow.com: http://stackoverflow.com/about Page showing questions that are tagged perl6 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/perl6 Perl 6 threads of interest (the tailing part of URL is self-descriptive): http://stackoverflow.com/questions/170268/what-features-of-perl6-are-you-the -most-excited-about (Of course I added NOVEMBER to the list of answers.) http://stackoverflow.com/questions/66165/whats-happening-with-perl6 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/125265/how-does-perl-6-evaluate-truthines s http://stackoverflow.com/questions/176343/whats-the-deal-with-all-the-differ ent-perl6-equality-operators-eq-eqv http://stackoverflow.com/questions/124652/should-i-learnplay-with-perl-6 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/102271/perl-6-supports-something-called-j unctions-what-uses-can-you-think-of http://stackoverflow.com/questions/118141/what-exactly-is-parrot Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://www.athenalab.com/ www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
November wiki mail list, November wiki page on the Perl 6 wiki
Some cross-linking to help future newcomers more easily find things. The November wiki discussion group is here: http://groups.google.com/group/november-wiki The November page on Perl 6 wiki is here: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?november I just added a reference to it on the Perl 6 Wiki home page (at end of the first entry under Development Status): http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
RE: November
From: Carl We're pleased to annouce the release of November, a wiki engine written in Perl 6. November is: * ...a proof-of-concept of what Rakudo Perl 6 can do today. * ...released early rather than when it's done. * ...meant to promote interest and involvement in Perl 6/Rakudo/Parrot development. To learn more, please browse the slides from the YAPC:EU 2008 lightning talk: http://viklund.pp.se/november.pdf I have added your link to the Official Perl 6 wiki here: (http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_articles_and_presentat ions) (Anyone else producing interesting Perl 6 articles and presentations should also add links to that page.) November is free, released under the Artistic License 2.0, and available online: http://github.com/viklund/november/ Great! By the way, in the U.S., Thanksgiving day happens to be in November. So thanks in advance. Do you plan to make a publicly-usable version of this wiki available, perhaps on the feather development system? Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
Doc illustration suggestion (All your paradigms are belong to us)
If someone has the time and inclination, please consider doing a Perl 6 features and paradigms illustration for the Perl 6 wiki (and for people making Perl 6 presentations), perhaps somewhat along these lines: The Principal Programming Paradigms http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigms.html http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/paradigmsDIAGRAMeng107.pdf Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://www.athenalab.com/ www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
RE: [svn:parrot] r28689 - trunk/languages/perl6/t (- versus _)
Moritz Lenz wrote (on perl6-compiler)
Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
+S02-builtin_data_types/num.t
S02-builtin_data_types/type.t
S02-literals/autoref.t
S02-literals/hex_chars.t# pure
S02-literals/radix.t
S02-polymorphic_types/subset-code.t # pure
S02-polymorphic_types/subset-range.t
+S03-operators/assign-is-not-binding.t
S03-operators/autoincrement.t # pure
S03-operators/comparison.t
S03-operators/context.t
In the test suite, could we perhaps aim for some
consistency on the use of hyphens versus underscores,
or at least articulate when one is used versus the other?
For example, assign-is-not-binding.t versus hex_chars.t
in the above.
Personally I vastly prefer hyphens to underscores,
Same here. Since the directly names already match m/^S\d\d-/ I'll
assume
that will be our standard.
but I
suspect people have good reasons for preferring underscores.
One reason (probably not a good one) is to use the same
convention as programming language variable names (which is
typically more of a CamelCase versus not_Camel_case issue).
Likewise, I suspect some people would also prefer hyphens to
either {underscores or CamelCase} in variable names as well (as
in Lisp).
So would a user-supplied Perl 6 syntax-morphing module to allow
use of embedded-hyphens in variable names (and other names, such
as labels and subs) to Perl 6 (with minimally-sane adjustments
needed to make hyphen-related operator parsing unambiguous) be
reasonably feasible? Or does this open a messy Pandora's box of
cascading language-redesign kludges?
(I suspect similar issues came up in language design discussions,
but my initial searches didn't turn up anything directly
relevant.)
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.AthenaLab.com
Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
Perl 6 and Parrot presentations on Perl 6 Wiki
FYI. Just added links to 9 presentations on Perl 6 and Parrot (by Patrick Michaud and Jonathan Worthington) that some of you may want to look at. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_articles_and_presentati ons Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://www.athenalab.com/ www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
Thanks to DeepText for €1,000 gr ant
Latest addition to the official Perl 6 wiki “Perl 6 Donors, Sponsors, and Supporters” page: (http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_donors_sponsors_and_supporters) · 2008-05-29 -- €1,000 -- DeepText http://deeptext.net/ funds a grant for Jonathan Worthington to work on Rakudo Perl 6: * DeepText made a minigrant of 1000 € to Jonathan Worthington for working 40 hours on Rakudo development during July and August of 2008. The purpose of the grant is to support implementing as many of multiple dispatch abilities in Perl 6 design as possible to code having these working hours. * See Jonathan Worthington Receives a Grant from http://deeptext.net/news/perl6-minigrant/ DeepText for Perl 6 Development for more details. PS: Everyone (especially grant-makers) should feel free to update this page as appropriate. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://www.athenalab.com/ www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki — http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki — http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
Perl 6 Donors, Sponsors, and Supporters on Perl 6 Wiki (Thanks Ian Hague and Vienna.pm!)
With Ian Hague's great donation, plus recent support from the Vienna.pm, it seemed like time to create a separate wiki page for such things: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_donors_sponsors_and_sup porters I've also added a prominent link to this from near the top of the Perl 6 wiki front page, among other places. Please help reward our sponsors and stimulate others by spreading this link around whenever appropriate opportunities arise. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
RE: In lieu of This Week in Perl 6
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:59 PM On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Patrick R. Michaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - The sidebar links should be updated. It might be good to update the Talks, Who's Who, and Status links to point to the appropriate pages on the Perl 6 wiki. Can you give me the appropriate links for these? A quick glance at the wiki main page only found me some tangential links. Hmmm. It may be time for (yet another) front page reorganization then, since all those things are there. I was hoping that such things would be fairly obvious, despite the many other additions. Talks: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_articles_and_presentati ons Who's Who: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_people Status: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?when_will_perl_6_be_released http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?development_dashboard I also suggest adding Latest News: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_rss_news_feeds Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
RE: Help with the What can I do with Perl 6 today wiki page
From: Aaron Trevena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I started the What can I do with Perl 6 today wiki page at the start of the year, but have been too busy with $paid_work to put much time into it since. I was hoping anybody who's written perl 6 code and run it with Rakudo or pugs could help fill in the gaps - there are a list of common/usual programming problems (please add more, for example from the P99 list), each requires a solution in perl 6 and a status message of whether it runs, errors or is blindingly fast (or make a cup of tea and watch some TV slow). Any contribution would be helpful - you don't have to benchmark, or use the latest version, or you could just add benchmarks to others with newer or older versions. http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?what_can_i_do_with_perl_6_toda y I've reorganized that page somewhat, and added a table of contents. I also added some links to current Perl 6 news, so that visitors have fallback pending the addition of new material. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot
RE: Fundraising follow-up
Richard, That's great news! (The time to get an answer wasn't an issue per se, but whether and when any answer at all might be forthcoming, especially given the previously expressed concerns and doubts of others that a positive answer would likely result. Under such conditions, it would be pointless to wait in the dark for 3, 6, 9, or whatever more months, instead of pursuing other options.) For purposes of earmarked development grants, does TPF prefer and recommend http://www.thepoint.com/ to channel earmarked donations to TPF? Or would it be best to wait a little longer for more conclusive TPF discussions on this? In this context, 2 specific cases of interest from past discussions are: (1) Getting 10 $500 commitments to fund chromatic's proposed month of intensive Parrot project work. (2) Providing a means to arrange (some number of) monthly contributions to fund ruoso's proposed work on SMOP's runtime. Once the means to handle these 2 paradigm cases is in place, a lot of useful work could be handled by replicating these cases with suitable substitutions of numbers, people, and tasks. I am certainly interested in helping with setting this up, if there's something useful I can do. (And of course, once this is set up, I am still interested in soliciting donations along such lines.) Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com http://www.athenalab.com/ Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 Official Parrot Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Dice Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 6:29 PM To: Conrad Schneiker Cc: perl6-users@perl.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Fundraising follow-up Conrad, Regarding targeted, earmarked funding - I have investigated the legalities, tax implications, etc. of what is involved. The result of my investigation is that it is do-able within the construct of TPF. The other question is one of creation of a technical platform for implementing this. There is a discussion within TPF of how we might accomplish this, or how it might otherwise be accomplished. For instance, one member of TPF pointed out that http://www.thepoint.com/ already exists and could provide the necessary infrastructure. So if the goal is (and only is) to connect Perl 6 developers with funding collected from various sources piggybacking off of this site could be the easiest way. My concern and the concern of TPF is maximum and best possible support of Perl, including Perl 6, given our resource limitations. I try to direct my time to what can be best accomplished in that context. This particular matter has received considerable attention, but so have other matters in the past 6 weeks as well. It seems to me that you too are energetic in your support of Perl 6 and have capability in this regard. If there is a project that you think you can devote attention to in such a way that the likelihood of success is maximized while not incurring the trouble of having anyone else on the critical path of the project plan then I would not want you to feel encumbered by TPF or anyone else. I think the main thing that TPF can offer is a legal structure: we have experience in meeting world-wide tax code requirements (as various countries will look upon grants of this kind as being income), and we have experience dealing with Things Going Wrong, including legal council identified and retained, insurance policies, limited liability of directors of the corporation, and similar. These things are important in Real Life and they are difficult and costly to replicate. Something I would ask you to consider is that 1.5 months _is not_ a lot of time, _especially_ for a volunteer organization. If that isn't going to work for you then I understand; there's a lot to be said for individual JDFI, which can be very efficient. But it doesn't scale into certain realms. Maybe this is one of those realms, maybe it isn't. The plan currently under discussion within TPF is the one written up by Richard Hainsworth on March 11, with body beginning Richard Dice covered some crucial questions below. I will email Karen Pauley, the new TPF Steering Committee chair, with your email address. If this matches the kind of program you are interested in then maybe you could be the implementation volunteer on the TPF version of the project? Cheers, - Richard On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Conrad Schneiker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pleases direct follow-ups to just perl6-users. It's been about a month and a half since the first time that I brought up the topic of fundraising. So I want to find out what the prospects are of decisively resolving the earmarked funding issue within The Perl Foundation any time soon. Otherwise, I would like to take the initiative to set up a Parrot Platform Foundation specifically to handle earmarked grants for Rakudo, the Parrot VM, C6PAN
New Perl 6 wiki page on Perl 6 fundraising and related topics.
I've started a new Perl 6 wiki page for Perl 6 fundraising and related topics: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_donations_and_fundraisi ng It's still very preliminary, and it may take another day or two before I finish collecting stuff from previous discussion threads that I also plan to include. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 - Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot - Official Parrot Wiki Best regards, Conrad Schneiker
Perl 6 fundraising and related topics.
During the course of collecting material for the Perl 6 wiki section on Perl 6 articles and presentations (http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_articles_and_presentat ions), I've repeatedly encountered remarks about how much Perl 6 development is constrained by the fairly severe time and energy constraints of its overwhelmingly volunteer development team. So over the next few months, I'm planning to learn about fundraising, and see what I can accomplish on behalf of Perl 6 development. To that end, I'm soliciting: (1) your suggestions for preparation, (2) your ideas for proposals, and (3) your reasons why the Perl 6 ecosystem (including Parrot and CPAN6) is one of the world's greatest and and most extremely leveraged causes (technically, economically, and socially). I'll also put whatever fundraising-oriented material I come up with on the Perl 6 wiki, to help and encourage others along similar lines. Thanks much in advance. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 - Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot - Official Parrot Wiki
Recent wiki updates: State of the Onions, FUD
Created page with links and brief summaries for Larry's State of the Onion addresses, which have quite a bit of interesting Perl 6 background info: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?state_of_the_onion Added and intro to this FUD page and put preliminary Perl6::FAQ::FUD stuff in it, in case anyone wants to update it: http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index.cgi?fud Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5 -- Official Perl 5 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 -- Official Perl 6 Wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/parrot -- Official Parrot Wiki
Google Welcome to the home page for Perl 6 (Perl 6 Wiki)
FYI: Just noticed that the increasingly-populated Perl 6 Wiki was recently
crawled by Google. ... Unfortunately the Wiki doesn't turn up anywhere near
the top of simple perl6 and Perl 6 Google searches yet. ... Someday soon,
hopefully
Below are Google results from doing local site search for perl using
site:rakudo.org/perl6 perl (without quotes).
Perl 6 - Perl 6
Perl 6 is the insanely great next version of the Perl programming language.
... For our regular visitors, current Perl 6 news is provided below. ...
rakudo.org/perl6 - 27k - Sep 10, 2006 - Cached - Similar pages
Learn About Perl 6 - Perl 6
This page is for general resources to learn about Perl 6. ... Damian Conway
(2003): The Perl 6 design process is about keeping what works in Perl 5, ...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?learn_about_perl_6 - 30k - Sep 10, 2006 - Cached
- Similar pages
Download Perl 6 - Perl 6
If you plan to contribute to Perl 6, you can see about getting a free
account ... Perl Community Development Server. There a fresh version of Pugs
is built ...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?download_perl_6 - 26k - Sep 10, 2006 - Cached -
Similar pages
Glossary of Perl 6 Terms and Jargon - Perl 6
However Perl 6 to Perl 5 bridges will eventually make all of CPAN look like
... #perl6 is the Perl 6 IRC channel. Information for accessing the logs
and ...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?glossary_of_perl_6_terms_and_jargon - 28k - Sep
10, 2006 - Cached - Similar pages
Perl 6 for Perl 5 - Perl 6
Perl 6 features are also coming to Perl 5 in other ways. As described below,
a number of Perl 5 modules already implement some Perl 6 features, ...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6_for_perl_5 - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
Getting Involved - Perl 6
You might also be interested to Start Your Own Perl 6 Module, ... This plan
is still current AFAIK: Perl 6 developers are refactoring relevant ...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?getting_involved - 27k - Sep 10, 2006 - Cached -
Similar pages
Documentation - Perl 6
Official Perl 6 Documentation (Which means, documentation that is officially
bundled ... The rapidly growing Perl 6 test base is another {very important,
...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?documentation - 27k - Sep 10, 2006 - Cached -
Similar pages
Mail Lists, IRC, Archives - Perl 6
Perl 6 Mailing Lists The currently active Perl 6 mailing lists are at ...
Perl 6 IRC IRC channels (and their archives) are a major source of useful
...
rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?mail_lists_irc_archives - 28k - Sep 10, 2006 -
Cached - Similar pages
Etc.,
Etc.,
Etc.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.AthenaLab.com
Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.
Check out the new Perl 6 Workplace Wiki:
http://rakudo.org/perl6
Mozilla's offer of help to Perl 6 -- How about adding P6XPCOM to PyXPCOM in Gecko 1.9+ and Firefox 3?
In: Perl 6 Design Minutes for 23 August 2006 http://use.perl.org/articles/06/09/08/2238219.shtml I saw this intriguing news: Mozilla Foundation wants to know how they can help Perl 6 Of course supporting Larry would be incredibly valuable. But there is also something else that would also be great to get on top of that. In this context, consider this item: PyXPCOM has been integrated into the Mozilla build system for tighter integration with the main XPCOM project. http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/Komodo/PyXPCOM/ I think it would be extremely valuable for Perl 6 to have this level of XPCOM integration out of the box. A few years from now I'd like to see a combination IDE + RCP based on a Perl 6 + XPCOM + XUL system that (among other things) featured something like Netbeans Matisse GUI builder that could be used for developing both standalone GUI applications or client-server applications that would work on any platform that installed Firefox 2. Of course there are a huge number of much less grandiose applications for a Perl 6 counterpart for the Python bindings--especially if P6XPCOM could be positioned in the same privileged position as PyXPCOM (in Gecko 1.9+ and Firefox 3). PS: A moderately insane musing: Maybe Parrot + Mozilla could someday become the preferred Linux desktop framework and overcome the infamously fractured world of Gnome / Qt, while also bridging the Mac and Win worlds. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology. Check out the new Perl 6 Workplace Wiki: http://rakudo.org/perl6
RE: Big update to the Perl 6 Workplace Wiki
From: Mark Overmeer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
During YAPC::EU, we lauched our plans for CPAN6, which is targeted
to replace CPAN. It is needed because we can not maintain all
new related languages in one name-space.
Is it possible to list our website (cpan6.org) together with
Parrot as major related projects? Probably Tim Bunce's
work in progress for DBI-on-Parrot needs to be there as well.
Yes. (Actually, you could have done this yourself, but I was already making
several other additions.)
By the way, I want to encourage you and others to post Wiki-related
questions directly to perl.perl6.users, where anyone who is interested can
respond or do something. That's why I'm also replying to the mail list. I'm
just a big Perl 6 Wiki proponent, but not {a manager, moderator, expert,
admin, or anything like that}.
Anyway, please see:
http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?cpan6
This page now provides an overview of CPAN6.
Since this is a public Wiki, you and your friends can add whatever you want
here. (There is a very simple one-time registration process to get started.)
And see Related Projects at:
http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi
This now links to the above page, and to cpan6.org.
And see Other Parrot projects (not language-specific) at:
http://rakudo.org/parrot/index.cgi?parrot
This now mentions Tim Bunce's DBI-on-Parrot.
Other items of interest (to the mail list):
Dave Rolsky made a great start at reorganizing the following page:
http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?the_long_perl_6_super_feature_list
Anyone else care to follow up?
I've added a section on Upcoming Perl 6-Related Events under The Latest
Perl 6 Info on the Perl 6 Wiki home page:
http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?perl_6
Please add upcoming events of interest.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.AthenaLab.com
Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.
Big update to the Perl 6 Workplace Wiki
I've just finished a big update to the Perl 6 Workplace Wiki. It got big enough that I started splitting it into subsidiary pages. The main page is still pretty long, but I've added a table of contents to make it easier to find things on it. Please give it a look, and please add useful stuff to it. http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi# Main page. http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi#the_long_perl_6_super_feature_list http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?glossary_of_perl_6_terms_and_jargon PS: Once again, I want to thank the folks at perl.net.au for doing the original wikifying of my Perl 6 Users FAQ on their Perl 6 Wiki a few months ago. Being able to cut and past most of the pre-formatted content with links already in place (with very minimal post-copy tweaking) saved a tremendous amount of time. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://www.AthenaLab.com www.AthenaLab.com Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology. Check out the new Perl 6 Workplace Wiki: http://rakudo.org/perl6
RE: Big update to the Perl 6 Workplace Wiki
Mark Summersault asked what the license for this Wiki is going to be. Below is what I plugged in for the time being. It's my best guess of what the leading lights of #perl6 and @Larry would be reasonably happy with (and thus it should also be appropriate for something eventually living on or near perl.org). Copyright and License * (c) 2006 under the same (always latest) license(s) used by the Perl 6 /src branch of the Pugs trunk. * See http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/README for the latest details. * See the GPL-2, Artistic-2.0b5, and MIT files in http://svn.perl.org/perl6/pugs/trunk/LICENSE/ for the full license texts. # FYI. The note below was originally posted on perl.perl6.users. # Thought some folks here should also be interested in this. # # Background: # # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.internals/34764 # Announcing the Perl 6 and Parrot wiki workspaces # # http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/357 # From: Andy Lester [mailto:andy[at]petdance.com] # # I'm working with Ask about doing something # at perl.org in the next week or two. Ive just finished a big update to the Perl 6 Workplace Wiki. It got big enough that I started splitting it into subsidiary pages. The main page is still pretty long, but Ive added a table of contents to make it easier to find things on it. Please give it a look, and please add useful stuff to it. http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi # Main page. http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi#the_long_perl_6_super_feature_list http://rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?glossary_of_perl_6_terms_and_jargon Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology. Check out the new Perl 6 Workplace Wiki: http://rakudo.org/perl6
RE: Stubborn coworkers
From: A. Pagaltzis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Ryan, Martin G [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-31 03:30]: In certain problem domains each remains the language of choice. They weren't aiming to solve as broad a range of problems as perl does so one shouldn't expect them to have as high a profile. That is true of Forth, but not Lisp. There's a reason that Larry calls Lisp the most beautiful language in the world. But you left out the awful part :-) Larry Wall (c.1994): Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with fingernail clippings mixed in. Larry Wall (c.2006): I simultaneously believe that languages are wonderful and awful. You have to hold both of those. Ugly things can be beautiful. And beautiful can get ugly very fast. You know, take Lisp. You know, it's the most beautiful language in the world. At least up until Haskell came along. (laughter) But, you know, every program in Lisp is just ugly. I don't figure how that works. In fact, Perl 6 is the first effort I am aware of where a language from outside the Lisp family is trying to compete (*and* win) at all the disciplines Lisp is good at. Absolutely!! (At least when it comes to a fairly popular and mainstream language family.) I think it's difficult to over-emphasize the extreme importance and power (and -Ofun!) of that. (C6PAN can become much more super-charged as well. And yet, simple things will still be easy, and lots of currently difficult things will become semi-easy.) Larry Wall (c.2006): Perhaps the Perl 6 slogan should be All Your Paradigms Are Belong To Us. We'll get to that. (... As you were saying, in somewhat different words.) More off the Wall Perl's of wit are at: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Larry_Wall. Some great essays (by Paul Graham) on why Lisp is important--and by implication, why Perl 6 is likely to be awesome: Beating the Averages (Lisp as a secret competitive weapon for startups.) http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html What Made Lisp Different http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html The Python Paradox http://www.paulgraham.com/pypar.html The Hundred Year Language http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.AthenaLab.com Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology. The Perl 6 Users FAQ has moved to: http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ Check out the new Perl 6 Workplace Wiki: http://rakudo.org/perl6
RE: Announcing the Perl 6 and Parrot wiki workspaces
From: A. Pagaltzis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-28 16:35]: In other words: it's pretty unusably slow with over 15 seconds, sometimes even 45 seconds per page. I get the same. Andy said it was his home box. Guess his connectivity's not that great, which makes me wonder why Conrad thought it was a good place to point to. During the course of a dozen or so updates I made while trying it out, it always responded well for me. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: Latest $1,000 Wiki for Perl 6 proposal/offer.
From: Andy Lester [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Aug 23, 2006, at 12:21 AM, Conrad Schneiker wrote:
Could I just pay someone at TPF $1,000 to set up a wiki *for* Perl
6 on
perl.org?
[...]
Whatever wiki TPF chooses is fine with me.
I'm working on a wiki right now. I work for Socialtext, an
enterprise wiki company, and I'm working on getting a wiki up for
Perl docs.
That certainly seems like intriguing news
Will there be a reasonably prominent link to your wiki from the perl.org
home page?
Will your wiki somehow be sufficiently {affiliated with, endorsed by, or
featured by} perl.org such that {Perl 6, Parrot, and Perl 5.10} developers
and users will (most likely) generally regard it as the new {primary,
central} Perl 6 related wiki for the foreseeable medium-term future?
Perhaps the best {fast, heuristic} way to address the above sorts of
concerns is this: if the general @Larry consensus is that the $1k check
should go to you, that's sufficient for me. Does that seem reasonable? (3rd
party feedback from other readers is also welcome.)
PS: Could your wiki provide some mechanism so that users with #perl6 commit
bits could use your wiki as the means to update pugs docs and Perl 6
Cookbook code in the svn tree? If so, how much $ would someone have to raise
to make that happen?
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6
Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: Latest $1,000 Wiki for Perl 6 proposal/offer.
From: Paul Fenwick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Conrad Schneiker wrote:
Hopefully someone at The Perl Foundation (perl.org) will read and
respond to
this.
(Other comments and suggestions are certainly welcome, however.)
[snip]
I'm not suggesting that PerlNet ( http://perl.net.au/ ) become the One
True P6 Wiki, although I'd be delighted if it did. However I am eager
for PerlNet to improve as much as possible.
What I am curious to know is how could PerlNet better meet your needs,
and the needs of the Perl community. I'm gathering that two things high
on the list are:
* Official endorsement of The Perl Foundation (including
linkage from perl.org)
Yes. (Or endorsement by @Larry.) My guess is that something like this is
necessary to overcome the past reluctance of others to use *any* of the
previously suggested, currently existing wikis.
* Synchronisation between the wiki and svn.
That's not a critical requirement for me (because I don't know how
{feasible, reliable, manageable} it would be at present), but I certainly
think that would be an awesomely cool and extremely useful feature to have.
Is there anything else?
I think that does it.
I'm certainly NOT after any money here. I'm after ways to make PerlNet
more valuable to the community.
Many thanks, and all the very best,
Likewise.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6
Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
GUI toolkits (RE: a practical question)
From: Richard Nabil Hainsworth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] But I want to start doing real things. Which for me requires gui toolkits. [...] So how to write an application in perl6 that uses (for the sake of illustration) WxWidgets? For simplicity, just a small window with Hello World, a button cool that adds text to the window, and a button Be gone! to kill the window. Can, in fact, pugs do the following? [...] Presumably, we write a perl6 program that has some perl5 in it that instantiates the objects using WxPerl. Then we switch to perl6 scripting. [...] Some examples would help me understand how to get perl6 working to do the things I want to do with it. I'm interested in the same thing. In addition, I'm also even more interested in getting the same sorts of questions answered for using Mozilla (Firefox) GUI technology stuff such as XPCOM, XUL, and so on. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Latest $1,000 Wiki for Perl 6 proposal/offer.
Hopefully someone at The Perl Foundation (perl.org) will read and respond to this. (Other comments and suggestions are certainly welcome, however.) Could I just pay someone at TPF $1,000 to set up a wiki *for* Perl 6 on perl.org? Whatever wiki TPF chooses is fine with me. I would also like this wiki to serve the interests of Perl 5.8/5.9/5.10, Parrot-related projects, and so on. These things should all help Perl 6 in the long run. If you want more $ for overhead costs, I'd be happy to do some evangelical fundraising. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) file:///C:\Documents%20and%20Settings\Admin2\Application%20Data\Microsoft\S ignatures\www.AthenaLab.com www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: wiki
From: Amir E. Aharoni There was so much talk about perl6 wiki, that i couldn't follow it anymore. Is there a currently working wiki where actual perl6 documentation can be read/written? Not that I know of, at least not in the sense of being a widely-accepted and presently-active focal point of such activity. Is it http://perl.net.au/wiki/ ? It doesn't seem to be very full of info ... No one has come up with a better alternative, AFAIK. There seems to be substantial reluctance to use anything that isn't Perl-based and isn't a semi-ultimate venue. If someone put an existing Perl-based Wiki on (say) feather (a Perl 6 development machine), that might be sufficiently widely appealing to take off, usage-wise. Juerd has a perl6 URL that he offered for the Perl6 implementation of a Perl6 Wiki that he might be willing to make available for such an interim Wiki. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Your ideas/preferences for Perl 6 IDE, RCP, Acme-like shell, and so on?
Here's some questions I'd like to pose to the group:
(1) What key features you think should be in some sort of FOSS tool
suite involving a Perl 6 oriented IDE, RCP (rich client platform),
document processor, and so on.
(2) What major existing components would you recommend?
(3) How would you architect it to take maximum advantage of Perl 6's
new capabilities?
With regard to (1), here are a few background references:
Perl Needs Better Tools
http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/08/25/tools.html
Acme: A User Interface for Programmers (Plan 9 / Inferno)
http://www.caerwyn.com/acme/
Independently Parsing Perl (for IDEs, for example)
http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2005/06/09/ppi.html
With regard to (2), what existing framework would you recommend for
GUI stuff? wxWidgets? (Some part of) the Mozilla code base, which
Activestate reportedly uses for their IDE? (AFAIK, the KDE-related
license would be troublesome for generating commercial RCP
applications. And Gnome previously seemed weak on cross-platform
native LF and printing support.)
Presumably svk/subversion should be the default version control
system.
With regard to (3), I presume something like {Eclipse, Netbeans,
Firefox} plug-in interfaces are highly desirable.
Presumably everything should have a well-structured but human-friendly
text representation, perhaps based on yaml instead of xml.
I suspect there should be some {moderately easy to implement,
moderately convenient to use} sweet spot between elaborate WYSIWYG
GUI builders, widget configuration systems, and GUI specification
mini-languages. Any good ideas or pointers?
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl
6 Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam
technology.)
RE: Mutil Method Questions
From: Steffen Schwigon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thomas Wittek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Maybe we should steal the ruby principle of least surprise here,
which I find a very good principle.
I'm quite confident that Larry already stole all good principles he
could find.
Me too. However many ongoing discussions on #perl6 and in
perl.perl6.language involve how to better reconcile such principles.
(Thanks especially to Pubs, which has stimulated a great many
refinements and improvements in the Perl 6 language, and continues to
do so.) So I think the previously expressed sorts of general concerns
are valid, even if there turns out to be {other overriding technical
issues, or some sort of misunderstanding} in this particular case.
If there would be a Full Metal Perl movie, the imdb
quote collection would contain:
These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green
giants,
walking the Earth with Perl6.
Good start
These principles we stole here today
are the finest principles we will ever know. After we rotate back
However Finest principles known now is extremely likely a
subset of finest principles we will ever know (especially
considering how relatively recently most were discovered, and
especially if you live at least another 10+ years). One *huge*
advantage of Perl 6 is to make it *much* easier to copy *new* great
ideas as they come along. I think that one of Perl 6's greatest design
principles is to anticipate discovering new great design principles.
to
the world, we're gonna miss not having any principle around that's
worth stealing.
Oh yea? What about Perl 7!? :-)
I expect that Perl 7 will have at least 1 or 2 new finest principles
that will be back-ported to Perl 6. My wild guess is that an early
perl7 production prototype will be available around 2020.
But I think it's a big mistake to get too stuck on specific Perl
version numbers, versus featuring the evolutionary role and trajectory
of Perl: Perl++, the most natural language of software progress;
featuring CPAN++, the executable Wikipedia of software expertise.
(This generic designation also has the virtue of reminding people that
the other branch of Perl is also evolving, with Perl 5.10 well along
in the works, and Perl 5.12 seems a very likely follow-on prospect.)
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl
6 Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam
technology.)
Revised Perl++ Wiki Proposal / $1k bounty
Here's my latest proposal. Feedback welcome. I propose to install twiki (http://www.twiki.org/) on Feather. This is a GPL'd Perl-based industrial-strength wiki. This would serve as the general Perl 6 wiki, aka Perl++. The source code would be placed in the Pugs .../other/... subtree for us to incrementally convert parts of it to Perl 6, and to also add/change functionality. A perpetual beta version of this would also be available on Feather. From time to time this beta version would replace the pervious Perl++ wiki code. In the mean time, we would have the initial Perl++ wiki. The previously proposed bounty would then instead be offered for the following subproject. Create a subsection of the Perl++ wiki that mirrored the Pugs svn doc tree. Provide a means of hacking on the docs through the Perl++ wiki. Implement whatever protocol the @Larry people on #perl6 deem appropriate for handing commit bit access issues. I think that that this simplification and convenience would greatly expand participation in generating Perl 6 documentation. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: Name of this wiki
Larry Wall profounded:
On Fri, Jun 16, 2006 at 11:51:09AM +0930, Tom Lanyon wrote:
: On Thu, Jun 15, 2006 at 10:12:12PM -0400, Matt Todd wrote:
: I really like these. I think you're on to something. I'm
definitely in
: favor of Momi Wiki, or just Momi.
:
: Just 'Momi' sounds good, I really like it.
Hmm, 'Momi' will be mispronounced by some English speakers as
mommy.
All that's missing is -hood and apple pi (Pugs-style).
so it'd
be cool if it works as a bilingual pun.
IMHO, preferably in semi-universal languages (such as math,
programming notation), so as not to overly discriminate against other
major natural languages (versus all of them :-).
OTOH, Perl++ is already a multi-way pun, and is also multiply
semi-self-descriptive.
(((-:
Along those lines, ++Lisp++ is tempting name, but would {likely,
unintentionally} offend most pro-Lispers, and less cosmopolitan
Perlers would {likely, unfortunately} not recognize this as
overwhelmingly positive comment on Perl6.
Related claim: very roughly speaking, Lisp:AI prog -- Perl6:NI prog,
but where Perl NI (Natural Intelligence) programming will eventually
both {subsume, exceed} traditional Lisp AI prog, due to much better
P2H (Program to Human) cognitive impedance matching.
Related analogy: In terms of notation, Perl6 versus modern Lisps is
analogous to deism versus dotism in calculus notation (Leibnitz's
d/dx notation versus Newton's dot notation). The d-notation
(especially when enhanced with quasi-sigils distinguishing full
derivatives, partial derivatives, loop integrals, and so on) proved
very much easier to naturally comprehend and use--especially for
increasingly {sophisticated, complex} applications. For decades after
the Leibnitz/Newton inventions of calculus, dogged adherence to dotism
had a considerable stultifying effect on its users, relative to the
rapidly progressing deists (for whom combinational play with the
notation suggested many {important, powerful} {applications, theorems,
proofs}), and so dotism was eventually abandoned. The main difference
here is that Perl6 came along well after modern Lisp, and had the
prior examples of {Smalltalk, Python, Ruby, Perl5, and so on} to
suggest better human interfaces for incorporating Lisp's greatest
hits (among other things).
:-)))
BTW, back to the original topic, Perlcosm is also semi-punish, and
s/co/ga/ is perhaps too much more so. :-)
But I still {prefer, vote for} Perl++ as the name of the primary
meta-wiki for all things Perl.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl
6 Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam
technology.)
RE: class introspection and extention
From: max demmelbauer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] i am new to this list. i wrote a small web-framework called webtek ( http://max.xaok.org/ webtek ) in perl 5.8 and try now to port this to perl6 (inspired by Unfortunately I only know very few German words, but webtek looks very interesting. Is (http://max.xaok.org/webtek/wiki) part of webtek? the speak from juerd at the austrian perl workshop :). but i have Juerd++ i read the lists and docs and i found some solutions, but none of this worked for me in pugs... hmm.. If you don't get all your questions answered here after a day or two, then you should ask on the #perl6 IRC channel. (Juerd also uses it.) I put some information about #perl6 in the Perl 6 Users FAQ: (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ). The developers on #perl6 can also tell you for sure what is implemented and what is working. I'm sure they would be very happy to help you. (By the way, the newest Pugs release is almost ready.) Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Perl++ Wiki (was: RE: Perl++ Wikicosm (was: OT: wiki engine architecture))
Matt Todd wrote:
[Lots of stuff]
General comment: It's much easier to comprehend posts in mail lists or
reading through the archives if you quote something of what you're
responding to.
Now, to the requirements talk: how important is the availability of
revision history in this bare-bones wiki?
Seems important to me, but I'm not a wiki expert.
What kind of authorship and administration
would
you (the granter or whomever, really) prefer? Every writer must have
an account? Are there any accounts other than an administrator? I
won't even get into admins, moderators, readers, editors, etc.
IMHO, it's good social sanity check to require author accounts.
Text formatting is
important
(if relatively easy to hook up), but is being discussed,
implementation-wise.
An extension of Perl6 POD would be interesting. As an option. And
maybe crazy.
How
about RSS feeds (which is usually more appropriate for versioned
pages, et al, but is useful even for recently-updated pages)?
Don't know.
I like seeing Pugs svn commits on comp.perl6.language. Probably
doesn't scale well in the long run, but it seems to be a very good
idea to begin with.
Do you
want it to work with the concept of pages/topics or is there another
way you want to represent the data?
Seems to work well enough for documentation purposes.
It would be very cool if the Pugs svn doc tree was mirrored in a
subsection of (the) Perl++ (Wiki), and could be {authored, edited}
through Perl++. I think that {simplification, convenience} would
greatly expand participation in generating Perl 6 documentation.
Interesting side note: perl++ on Google shows this link as the 3rd
hit: (www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users).
Later on, a mechanism that made it feasible for smart IDEs to find
relevant Perl 6 Cookbook descriptions in Perl++ and lift code samples
would be very cool.
What kind of categorization do
you
want to support?
Not sure I understand question.
What kind of control do you want over the visual
aspects (CSS, HTML, et al)? Did you have something in mind other
than
a web administration interface?
Not at the moment.
What kind of moderation privileges
would you like?
Omnipotent and clairvoyant. :-) But I'd settle for the minimum needed
to thwart religious editing wars, spamming, and so on.
What basic actions do you want to perform for a page
(or whatever)?
Don't know.
How about whatever twiki does? It's perl-ish and appears to be a
pretty substantial offering:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_wiki_software).
That's a lot to answer, I know.
I'm sure others can provide better answers.
Just $perl6.say # Needs work. JAPH needs to be updated. :-)
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl
6 Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam
technology.)
RE: Perl++ Wikicosm (was: OT: wiki engine architecture)
From: Michael Mathews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Having just been away on yet /another/ training course in Agile methodology, I'd say this is a classic disconnect of concerns. Sounds like Conrad just want something that works, and can be available quickly -- a rather traditional customer point-of-view. With the very important condition that what is done doesn't preclude incremental evolution to a great system. That's something that I've mentioned numerous times, but which almost everyone seems to overlook. I don't see these as mutually exclusive, I just didn't see any delineation of what would be a reasonable minimal subset to use as the initial specification. Well, if we can have a blogosphere I suppose we can also have a wikicosm :-) Maybe Perlcosm? :-) Since it will hopefully be a big advance over wikis in the long run. Mainly speaking on point number 2 again, I agree that we need to be discussing and deciding on the minimal features, but this is does not mean that the architecture should be poorly designed. Even with a weakly implemented yet well designed base, it would be easier to take this minimal wiki and upgrade it into something very powerful. Absolutely. I already made this argument in an earlier post, when I suggested a requirement that the accepted solution have a modular architecture (plug-ins, for example). I forget the exact response, but it was something like whatever. Again, I think Conrad is really mainly concerned with something that works, and quick. The rest is just icing -- correct me if I'm wrong here. Again, subject to not unreasonably precluding great improvements. This gets to a point thats been niggling me, which is that because of the prize/grant involved there is automatically an environment created which does not reward general community collaboration. That's part of the thinking behind the recent suggestion that perhaps entry to the contest should be declared by code drops to the pugs svn in the example subtree, with the hope that people would rally behind the first person to take the initiative and show a reasonable record of progress. Best regards, Conrad Schneiker http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl 6 Wiki.) www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
RE: OT: wiki engine architecture
Hello,
From: Michael Mathews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[...]
On 08/06/06, Matt Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Maybe this would be a good time to (semi-)formalize some form of
recommendations for the project?
Agreed. (We're talking about the minimal requirements to get the
thousand for a pswiki, right?) Will this work like the Perl 6
RFC-Roundup, where the community made proposals and then Larry
sorted
them out? Or who shall be the judge?
Good question. :-) I was originally hoping it would be The Perl
Foundation, based on a spec developed by @Larry.
FYI, here's the original post:
$1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6,
(http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/127).
However, there turned out to be problems with doing a prize through
The Perl Foundation. My more recent proposal then became:
$1,000 Grant (was: prize) for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6,
(http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/217).
I didn't get any response to that at all. So my current plan is to
offer a prize directly myself, but I'm uncomfortable being the one who
decides (1) what the (detailed) spec should be, and (2) who (person,
group) has satisfied it, and should be declared the winner.
The last link above gives my general requirements. I'd like something
that could be done sooner rather than later. Using available Perl 5
modules to get started is fine, as long as Perl 6 code plays some sort
of significant role. I'm looking for an initial XP style (start with
the minimum that will work) implementation that's good enough for
initial practical use, but which leaves the door open to a subsequent
series of major improvements. The aim is not to start with a Perl 6
showcase, but to get the ball rolling on a usable prototype that can
*later* be incrementally transformed into a Perl 6 showcase. (Again,
please see the .../217 link/post above for some elaboration.)
I haven't had a chance to adequately digest and think over the
preceding wiki posts from last week, but I think tables should be a
requirement.
As a point of departure, I'm mostly favorably inclined to Juerd's
remarks on #perl6 (near the end of the log):
(http://colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6?date=2006-06-04,Sun).
However, I think the detailed specs are less important than getting a
usable first version of a wiki (that makes some significant use of
Perl 6) up and running on feather. If someone can produce a wiki that
others are willing to use (and, of course, that doesn't preclude
migration to nicer interfaces), that's the most important thing for
me.
So, back to answering the original question. (1) Is there is someone
else on this mailing list that most other posters would generally
support as the designated spec pumking or proxy @Larry? (The
guiding criteria are to be the sorts of considerations I've outlined
above.) Once the preliminary spec converged on something that attained
a moderate degree of consensus in this group, I'd declare it to be the
target spec. (2) Would Juerd be willing to serve as the judge of who
sufficiently fulfilled the specs?
Hopefully others would rally behind whoever steps forward to go for
the prize, which could be {demonstrated, facilitated} by making
incremental code drops in the pugs svn tree, under
.../examples/.../p6wiki/.
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6_Users_FAQ (Moved from AthenaLab to Perl
6 Wiki.)
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam
technology.)
RE: $1,000 prize for Perl 6 Wiki written in Perl 6
-Original Message-
From: Amir E. Aharoni [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 1:54 PM
[...]
It's funny - i was the first one who proposed the wiki idea and i
didn't think that it will go so far (1000$$$). If you ask me, this
wiki should be done ASAP in Media-Wiki. Reusing current Perl wikis
(Australian, whatever) is even better.
I certainly agree. However, someone has to take the initiative to actually
start using (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6), and to post links back here
for others to follow up on. Will that person be you? :-) I'm all for using
that wiki to compile important Perl 6 content now, so that there will be
plenty of good material on hand for the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki.
I'm long on enthusiasm, but very low on tuits at the moment (hence the
prize), but if someone ports the contents of
(www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm) to the above wiki, I'll replace the
above page with a Perl 6 Users FAQ has become absorbed by a much better
Perl 6 wiki link.
Perl6 currently needs
documentation, community and advocacy - not a Yet Another Content
Management System written in itself.
I don't see these as mutually exclusive. Especially since other people
clearly regard such a prospective Perl 6 system as a powerful form of
advocacy, as an important piece of documentation for the Perl 6 Cookbook,
and as a community-building venture.
Also, it's really up to others who do the actual work to decide what they
find interesting or important enough to work on, given their interests and
motivation. It's not for me to dictate to others what they should or
shouldn't be doing. Perl 6 development has really taken off over the last
year or so in part because people were encouraged to pursue -Ofun, rather
than being told what they should be doing. Of all the crazy things, whoever
thought that what Perl 6 really needed was a pathetically primitive
prototype in some arcane language like Haskell? :-)
It is unlikely that it will
become Perl6's killer app with such a strong competition.
Near-to-medium term, you're almost certainly correct. The long term is a
different matter. But I think this is a tangential issue.
There are more important {near-to-medium term and non-competitive} roles
(pun intended) that the (Perl 6)**2 Wiki could play. (1) It can serve as a
wide-participation eat your own dog food prototype. (2) As new Perl 6
features become available, refactoring the prototype into a more pluggable
architecture (among other things) could provide many opportunities for
trying out new Perl 6 capabilities (including the use of production Perl 5
modules). (3) As the primary Perl 6 wiki, we have the option of adding
features that might be particularly useful for (say) generating Perl {user,
release, module, distribution, and so on} documentation without going
through the usual {POD editing, svn updating, HTML generating} processes,
resulting in {wider participation and greater productivity}, relative to
existing systems. (4) Eventually, this can serve as the nucleus of a
generalized Wiki-counterpart and analog of {CPAN, Perl Monks sorts of
forums, developer blogs, and so on}. Parts of it might eventually
incrementally morph into the first viable semantic web.
And again, the most important factor for many people is -Ofun. I've even
resigned myself to it. :-)
Best regards,
Conrad Schneiker
www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm
www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam and micro-neutron-beam technology.)
Perl 6 Wiki -- 2 more possibilities, further discussion.
, and comprehensiveness} advantages of a common primary Perl 6 wiki. (is there an official perl 6 user's wiki or will there be, or is that a different question?) Well, the 2 newest possibilities are: http://pugs.kwiki.org/?perl6 (audreyt) Feather, the semi-public, semi-private, Perl 6 development server aka www.perl6.nl (juerd) Plus the previously existing Perl 6 Wiki that we are both welcome and encouraged to use: (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6). Feather has the powerful future marketing advantage that it can also be used to develop and then host a showcase Perl 6 implementation of the Perl 6 Wiki. However, I think that we should initially *begin* with a solid and proven Perl 5 wiki implementation that we can use *immediately*. If we could do this, then this would be my first preference. (Someone want to poll #perl6 for feedback? Unfortunately I won't be available the next couple of days at reasonable hours.) Best regards, Conrad Schneiker www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm www.AthenaLab.com (Nano-electron-beam technology.)
Re: (Existing) Perl 6 Wiki: (http://perl.net.au/wiki/Perl_6)
Please see forwarded note below. (( Paul: Didn't see this show up in the archives, so I'm forwarding it on your behalf. Looks like you have to be subscribed to post. Details for doing that are in: http://www.athenalab.com/Perl_6_Users_FAQ.htm Also please look at a posted reply: http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.language/25399 Could you switch to an existing Perl 5 based wiki for the time being? )) -- Forwarded message -- From: Paul Fenwick Date: May 23, 2006 1:03 AM [...] G'day Conrad and P6ers, My apology for this being a very brief note. I'm on an interstate training assignment until the end of the week, and I'm scrounging net access where I can. Conrad Schneiker wrote: [snip] Their posted policies, FAQ, and (http://perl.net.au/wiki/PerlNet:About), seem to be very favorably inclined to serving the purposes of recent Perl 6 Wiki proposals made on comp.perl6.lang and comp.perl6.users. (I've cc'd their contact on this note.) As one of the PerlNet admins, I'd be delighted if PerlNet was used to assist in any Perl 6 development, discussions, or other activities. PerlNet exists to provide support for the Perl community, and if there's anything I can do to make it more suitable to help the Perl 6 effort, then I'd be very happy to do my best to make it happen. All the very best, Paul -- Paul Fenwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://perltraining.com.au/ Director of Training | Ph: +61 3 9354 6001 Perl Training Australia| Fax: +61 3 9354 2681
