Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Luke wrote: I can't say I've ever used a framework. I like to be in control of all of my code, plus it's much more satisfying when you write everything yourself (I've found anyway)... If I want to make use of existing code, I rather have a good understanding and a grasp of the philosophy behind it. It is all about decisions anyway, so I better know why than just think 'whatever' or 'I don't care'. Therefore I just make use of libraries. Most of it is my own code, some are just variations on existing code and I tweaked it to my needs (or philosophy). Frameworks are nice. But I've never seen any other construction work in other fields making use of frameworks without customizing it over and over again. When people build a house, they can use ready-built parts etc. But when that house is finished, it doesn't need any backwards compatability. Housing has a lot of 'standards' and regulations or best practises. But they never use another framework exactly the same way as they did before. You can say 'Software ain't the same as housing'. Correct. But there are similarities however that makes you think about what is a good practise and what not. If you have a function and it works, but it is old code, you can still reuse it, modify it and apply it. That doesn't make a need for putting the modified version back into your old project, just for the sake of 'maintainance'. If I would be in the business of building houses, I would have to use pipes, cut them off, tweak them here and there to make them fit etc. That doesn't make a need for cut them all off already and tweak them for an older project, or next projects to come. No? I rather have a good supply of small, workable, understandable pieces of code that could make up for a framework, but doesn't. I don't want a house that is built on top of a factory framework with a lot of parts that makes it cloggy and won't be used at all. That is just my idea of why I use a library, a toolkit, rather than frameworks that are oversized most of the time. -- Aschwin Wesselius /'What you would like to be done to you, do that to the other'/
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
I can't say I've ever used a framework. I like to be in control of all of my code, plus it's much more satisfying when you write everything yourself (I've found anyway)... 2008/10/8 paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] PHP framework vs just php ? http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 according to the benchmark.Just PHP win by more than 100% to average framework. even the fastest solar only manage to serve 154pages/sec compare to just php 1320pages/sec call me outdated. but i stay with just php! On 10/8/08, Eric Butera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Ashley Sheridan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:20 -0300, uaca man wrote: Farid, I like to use PRADO(www.pradosoft.com), it is very easy to use for those who are coming from Microsoft .Net platform as it uses the same architecture. I did not like symfony, too much to read before the first example. Angelo 2008/10/6 farid lópez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx Don't frameworks introduce a lot more overhead to projects though? Ashhttp:// mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#label/php-general/11975743c3279e0f www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Yep. But there is always that balance between developer time versus computing time. Usually we can start with the quick developer win and slowly attack slower areas. Of course all of this is subjective and every case requires a unique look. Look at this: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Luke Slater -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) mI0ESOkTJwEEAL4irZ9kb6VclXiNe4U8gTFGnyaRp4/29d0zwM6eIlAAP30o/iLM QBLHSKAco0tNV+g9BAlm3QWRONLGNsPKBY4wqm75Scwri+wdrz0obdjO/rnwg0td hQKpnBXULWJi3HwSEMruQJ6nEZfYCMvBxWIRZetsbbiFs5pLgpT6QLVHABEBAAG0 Nkx1a2UgU2xhdGVyIChJIGxvdmUgY29ybnkpIDx0aW5tYWNoaW4zQGdvb2dsZW1h aWwuY29tPoi2BBMBAgAgBQJI6RMnAhsDBgsJCAcDAgQVAggDBBYCAwECHgECF4AA CgkQe3smS6NtkbO24gP+Nt7aeYKK4R+HDQSXhr01rkcEpi6Jwdei3wmdX6knDyjE mebI6ULyi7g+GCLjK6/9j04ri3j9kcGsKgI67kXt8iRaD0rPjLTdeJyInetNoOOJ rEVp6HrthMW6g8j2PBDYnkPt0yR4K+Cn1krGbX7w41IWh3QO3FL+9OhLCaOd+u0= =Zm5J -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Farid, I like to use PRADO(www.pradosoft.com), it is very easy to use for those who are coming from Microsoft .Net platform as it uses the same architecture. I did not like symfony, too much to read before the first example. Angelo 2008/10/6 farid lópez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:20 -0300, uaca man wrote: Farid, I like to use PRADO(www.pradosoft.com), it is very easy to use for those who are coming from Microsoft .Net platform as it uses the same architecture. I did not like symfony, too much to read before the first example. Angelo 2008/10/6 farid lópez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx Don't frameworks introduce a lot more overhead to projects though? Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:47:54 +0100, Ashley Sheridan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't frameworks introduce a lot more overhead to projects though? Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk Any generic code library adds overhead. How much and whether or not it's acceptable depends on the framework and on your use case. In *most* use cases, PHP execution time is not your bottleneck. Disk IO, database traffic, and network traffic are a much bigger problem. If you can, throw an Opcode cache at it (whether it's a framework or not) to get a nice speed boost. I find I produce much better quality results with much less effort when using a good framework than when writing from scratch. --Larry Garfield -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Ashley Sheridan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:20 -0300, uaca man wrote: Farid, I like to use PRADO(www.pradosoft.com), it is very easy to use for those who are coming from Microsoft .Net platform as it uses the same architecture. I did not like symfony, too much to read before the first example. Angelo 2008/10/6 farid lópez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx Don't frameworks introduce a lot more overhead to projects though? Ashhttp://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#label/php-general/11975743c3279e0f www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Yep. But there is always that balance between developer time versus computing time. Usually we can start with the quick developer win and slowly attack slower areas. Of course all of this is subjective and every case requires a unique look. Look at this: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
PHP framework vs just php ? http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 according to the benchmark.Just PHP win by more than 100% to average framework. even the fastest solar only manage to serve 154pages/sec compare to just php 1320pages/sec call me outdated. but i stay with just php! On 10/8/08, Eric Butera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Ashley Sheridan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 11:20 -0300, uaca man wrote: Farid, I like to use PRADO(www.pradosoft.com), it is very easy to use for those who are coming from Microsoft .Net platform as it uses the same architecture. I did not like symfony, too much to read before the first example. Angelo 2008/10/6 farid lópez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx Don't frameworks introduce a lot more overhead to projects though? Ashhttp://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#label/php-general/11975743c3279e0f www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Yep. But there is always that balance between developer time versus computing time. Usually we can start with the quick developer win and slowly attack slower areas. Of course all of this is subjective and every case requires a unique look. Look at this: http://paul-m-jones.com/?p=315 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: I agree that finding the right framework to use can be very difficult, which is why a lot of programmers (like me) prefer to roll their own. But if you can find an off-the-shelf framework that does the job it can save you an awful amount of time. I agree with Tony. I think I have written many of my own 'frameworks' over the years, one mistake I made was never adding on to an existing one as I always thought I could do better 2nd ,3rd or Nth time around. I have recently had some exposure to the Zend Framework and I must say that I do like it :) , In particular I find the Zend_Form component very useful. Generating, validating and then inserting/updating data is super easy. This weekend I started a new project and started hand coding a login form, then though wth am I doing, a few lines of code and Zend_Form had my login form up and running. Im not saying that a custom framework is the right way, just that I would choose one thats considered a loosely coupled framework So you can choose what parts you want to use or not use, this is why I like the ZF, it allows me to choose my own toilet paper to wipe my ass with or even if I should give it a wipe not that I wouldn't. Clive -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:41 AM, clive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Tony. And you raise the dead. That thread died five and a half months ago Let it rest in peace! ;-P -- /Daniel P. Brown More full-root dedicated server packages: Intel 2.4GHz/60GB/512MB/2TB $49.99/mo. Intel 3.06GHz/80GB/1GB/2TB $59.99/mo. Intel 2.4GHz/320/GB/1GB/3TB $74.99/mo. Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:57 PM, Daniel Brown wrote: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 11:41 AM, clive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Tony. And you raise the dead. That thread died five and a half months ago Let it rest in peace! ;-P But... Which framework is better? :P -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Lets raise the dead once more. I have been using the Prado framework, prado uses the .net architecture, so it is easy and fast to learn for those who came from a Microsoft platform, anyway prado is very good to build UI, but there is always a *but*!! Prado database abstraction model it is just bad something like hibernate mixed with some ORM, or maybe i just don't like the java way of doing things. Angelo -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life.
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
what is your framework??? uacaman. i'm using symfony, but i'm reading the book. it's hard but there are so many things you can do easily with symfony! 2008/10/7 uaca man [EMAIL PROTECTED] To be or not to be dump it your choice. My framework it not just awesome it is super awesome. Angelo 2008/10/6 Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Which framework is better? :P Oh my.. now we're gonna get all those guys popping back up telling us how dumb we are and how awesome their frameworks are again! -- -Dan Joseph www.canishosting.com - Plans start @ $1.99/month. Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Atte Farid H. López Durán La naturaleza del hombre es tal que puede conseguir la perfección únicamente cuando trabaja para el bienestar y la dignidad de sus conciudadanos. Karl Marx
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 01:46:14PM +0200, Aschwin Wesselius wrote: Lester Caine wrote: 'If it isn't broken don't fix it' causes a problem when YOU know that the step change will make future development easier, but the customers keep asking - 'Can you just add XXX' :( So they actually ask for a porn site? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php :D lol -- Nick Stinemates ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://nick.stinemates.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wednesday 23 April 2008 21:29:40 tedd wrote: At 5:24 PM +0300 4/22/08, Sancar Saran wrote: Hello there, Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework... Yes, and I'm programming with it. But, that's what jQuery and I call a library. Cheers, Name it whatever you want. From my point of view It works, It helps lot and it was fun to writing programs with jQuery. and When I try to use zend frame work (or name it your favorite framework). It works. It needs to read tons of docs before writing someting useful and it was [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ to writing programs with zend framework. Regards Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Sancar Saran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It works. It needs to read tons of docs before writing someting useful and it was [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ to writing programs with zend framework. It has tons of real unit tests to know it really works. Plus there are a lot of eyes on it from various platforms. So you're pretty much guaranteed that it is going to work out for you in the end. It has a very nice manual, better than any other attempt I've seen in our community. I think some of the api's do feel a little weird but I understand that after releasing you can't just break BC for glam. :) With all of that said... I tend to stay away from a lot of it though because it feels very heavy to use. I guess that is how it has to be when you can override/hook into so many different things (specifically the controller). -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Thursday 24 April 2008 14:52:12 Eric Butera wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:42 AM, Sancar Saran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It works. It needs to read tons of docs before writing someting useful and it was [EMAIL PROTECTED]@ to writing programs with zend framework. It has tons of real unit tests to know it really works. Plus there are a lot of eyes on it from various platforms. So you're pretty much guaranteed that it is going to work out for you in the end. It has a very nice manual, better than any other attempt I've seen in our community. I think some of the api's do feel a little weird but I understand that after releasing you can't just break BC for glam. :) With all of that said... I tend to stay away from a lot of it though because it feels very heavy to use. I guess that is how it has to be when you can override/hook into so many different things (specifically the controller). Hello, I did not say to it did not work. It works certanly... And I do not know anything about overriding and hook in the controller. AND Thanks, with your answer my mind flashes I finally realize the all of those framework madness and OO nazisim. Here My Conclusion... After booming web, tons of unemployement Desktop programmer changes their jobs to create dynamic web pages to earn more food. Meanwhile some kids form lazytown doing some very interesting sites (and earn some big bucks) using some kind of scripting language named PHP. After some inspection they found interesting facts and began to scraming. OMG. OMG, those nuts writing dynamic web pages with functions only. They even don't know anything about object oriented programming. Then some of then really pissed off. Because those kiddies doing very popular sites even using some proper programming skillz... Then they create a mission for themselves to good of community. Lets teach them how to write programming with proper way And they forget someting... This was web industry. Your instances are 1 sec. In 6 month your aproach was old and dull. Somebody in somewhere doing different way to do very interesting things and you have to refactor entire thing. From My Point of View None of those frameworks can cover everything for world of HTML and WEB. And I do not remember when I was extend somebody elses classes... I'm pretty sure everone has lots of mini functions in their personal libs which does not touch and use for years. But classes ? Or frameworks I'm not sure Regards Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:05 AM, Sancar Saran [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, with your answer my mind flashes I wish I shared your passion on things! I started out with functional programming using various languages. PHP was the first time I attempted writing classes. The reason I wanted to was because I kept thinking there was a better way to save me time and effort on my projects. With all of my functional stuff I kept duplicating my add/edit/remove crud file and I thought why not just try making a class and extending it to save on lines of code. Then I realized that was quite slow since it was all being done at runtime. From there things only got worse as I learned about composition over inheritance, all the other rules, and also as you put it OO naziism in general. Everything I do is always wrong in someone's book. Progress indeed! Years later in the end it's all the same crap no matter what the syntax is. I'm still grabbing input and moving it around. I just prefer my shovel to be objects instead of functions to keep my mind occupied. Otherwise I might start thinking there really isn't much difference between being a code monkey and a factory worker. ;) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip]
...laugh...
[/snip]
I did a quick and dirty of just one of those functions. This function
takes a table and creates a form based on the table. It needs quite a
bit of refining, but I am willing to share and let you guys and gals
throw suggestions;
function formCreate($database, $table, $action, $excludeCols,
$recordID){
/*
* This function is used to create forms on the fly based on
tables within
* the database. The minimal arguments are database name and
table name.
* Additional arguements may be supplied to indicate columns to
be excluded
* from form and an action (CRUD) to be performed once the form
* is filled out. If wanting to do an update, read or delete you
can specify
* a record to retrieve to populate the form. Default values
will be provided
* for arguements not included.
*/
/* database connection in global variable */
global $dc;
/* number of arguements sent to function */
$numArgs = func_num_args();
/* test to make sure that you have the minial two arguements */
if(2 $numArgs){
/* not enough arguments */
$errMsg = not enough arguements supplied, please supply
database and table name;
return($errMsg);
} else {
/*
* Supply default values for optional arguements if they
are not set.
* An interesting note here: the action can be anything
that the user
* specifies, it is not strictly limited to CRUD and it
will be output
* in a hidden form field;
* input type=hidden name=action value=whatever
action is called
* That way when the user clicks 'Submit' the programmer
can have a
* switch action in his or her processing script to
handle this form.
*/
if(!isset($action)) { $action = 'read'; }
if(!isset($recordID)){ $recordID = ''; }
if(!isset($excludeCols)){
$excludeCols = '';
} else {
/* create an array of excluded columns */
$arrExcludeCols = explode(,, $excludeCols);
}
/* describe the table */
$sqlDesc = DESCRIBE `.$database.`.`.$table.` ;
if(!($dbInfo = mysql_query($sqlDesc, $dc))){
return mysql_error();
} else {
while($tableInfo = mysql_fetch_array($dbInfo)){
/*
* regular expression - we need the data
that exists between the
* parentheses in the Type column of the
database being described
* so that we can use for length values
of form fields
*/
if(!(in_array($tableInfo['Field'],
$arrExcludeCols))){
if(preg_match (
/\((\d{1,}.*?)\)/, $tableInfo[1], $regs )){
/* handle numerical
values in parentheses to create form element lengths */
echo
label.$tableInfo['Field']./label;
echo input
type=\text\ name=\.$tableInfo['Field'].\ size=\.$regs[1].\
maxlength=\.$regs[1].\br /\n;
} elseif(text ==
$tableInfo[1]) {
/* handle text columns
*/
echo
label.$tableInfo['Field']./label;
echo textarea
name=\.$tableInfo['Field'].\ cols=\80\ rows=\10\/textareabr
/\n;
} elseif(enum ==
substr($tableInfo[1], 0, 4)){
/* handle enumerated
columns and creat drop downs */
echo
label.$tableInfo['Field']./labelnbsp;;
/*
* regular expression -
we need the data that
* exists between the
single quotes in the Type column of the
* database being
described so that we can use for option
* values in a drop-down
on the form
*/
preg_match_all(
/'(.*)'/U, $tableInfo[1], $matches);
echo select
name=\.$tableInfo['Field'].\\n;
echo
option/option\n;
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 22:11 +0800, paragasu wrote: I'm guessing, since you quoted os-commerce and phpBB, you don't know shit code when you see it. Just because it's popular doesn't mean the code is good. Have you ever tried to modify either of these? What a mess. honestly, i don't and not really interested to dig inside thus code. but i guess, modifying the phpBB code not easier than modifying the core of codeIgniter or CakePHP. 10k lines of code built over a framework is not the same as 10k lines that essentially required you to build your own framework. since framework already included a thousand line of code even before you start to do the program, i think it will be less code if we start to write the program on our own. Not to mention, the framework core take a lot of diskspace. some more than 2MB of code. You didn't just say 2MB and lot of diskspace in the same breath did you? Please, someone pinch me, I must be dreaming. Space is CHEAP! My client is a small2 company. i manage to write code less than 300KB to do everything they ask me to do. Sure, i do not need all thus fancy feature (caching etc), i do not need multiple user or role based support provided by framework. If you're focused on disk space under 5 megs, I would argue you have your priorities a bit screwed up. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 10:07 -0600, Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:54 AM, paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i can only think of copy paste method if i were required to write a PHP application without a single line of code even a simple hello world! application. i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a little harder. imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D You said that wrong... You can do t! :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 01:02 +0800, paragasu wrote: imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D -nathan i am going to miss the fun doing programming then. As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal. sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking part. Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a factories to produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent framework so other people can use it to create many program. If for productivity. canned food is good. But i think, i still prefer sweet sour fried rice over canned food. don't you? I prefer raw huma^M^M^M^M^M^M^M^M chicken! Yeah, chicken! That's it! :B Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 19:05 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. Or you may find you've got 999 classes of code you'll never use :) That would be one hell of an undertaking to piece them together. I'm going to guess you'll need namespaces too since I bet some of them step on each other's toes. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: Audit logging - http://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/auditlog.html Workflow - http://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/workflow.html Yuck - MySQL :( A decent database has it's own logging stuff built in ;) And a decent database library does not care which database you use :) I think that there is a reasonable 'breakpoint' here. As soon as you what an application structure where users need to log in and security needs managing then ideally that is provided by the framework. Decent frameworks use well established libraries to provide some of those functions - ADOdb and smarty suit me nicely. I can write stand alone stuff via ADOdb direct, or I can work via the framework and access second level functions such as gallery, board, editing and the like. Some applications can directly access the libraries, and that is the hole I have 'dug' myself into since moving from the earlier simple 'framework' to something that provides a proper security and expandability is now proving difficult. 'If it isn't broken don't fix it' causes a problem when YOU know that the step change will make future development easier, but the customers keep asking - 'Can you just add XXX' :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://home.lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://home.lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Lester Caine wrote: 'If it isn't broken don't fix it' causes a problem when YOU know that the step change will make future development easier, but the customers keep asking - 'Can you just add XXX' :( So they actually ask for a porn site? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 13:46 +0200, Aschwin Wesselius wrote: Lester Caine wrote: 'If it isn't broken don't fix it' causes a problem when YOU know that the step change will make future development easier, but the customers keep asking - 'Can you just add XXX' :( So they actually ask for a porn site? *rofl* -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. [/snip] Fair enough, you have already given me several! :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
At the risk of extending this already looong thread... Ah, screw it. I actually read all of the Radicore documentation on Monday following someone's suggestion last week about module access control. That was before this thread got started, BTW. Now I'm not a Framework guy at all, and I don't know nor have ever communicated with Tony, but I was very impressed with the level of sophistication and conceptual richness of the Radicore Framework, his insight and solutions for common issues such as users hitting the 'browser back button' and having multiple, open instances of a web page, differentiation in usage of GET and POST, and session management in particular. I'm happy to entertain and play along with threads that drift into meta-topic struggles, but honestly, let's not lose the forest for the trees. There's good stuff in Radicore, as I'm sure there are in some other frameworks. -- -David. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. -Jimi Hendrix -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
At 3:35 PM +0100 4/22/08, Stut wrote: Tony Marston wrote: No I'm not. Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT! Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment. As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments. To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled as it is about utility code. I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code that covers everything I need to do regularly. If I have an itch it doesn't scratch I'll write it in a reusable way. The file layout and code library has definitely been put through it's paces and is currently in use on a 1.4m+ UUpM (~18m PVpM) site and several smaller properties so I know it works securely, reliably and it scales. I don't use third-party code libraries unless there's no other way of doing it or time constraints are in play. Maybe it's due to past experiences or maybe it's just the way I am, but I don't like using code written by people I don't know and trust unless I can spend time picking it apart, and generally I found it's quicker to start again. It's also worth noting the shocking quality of some open source projects. It may work but do you know how secure and stable it is? I've been forced to use a couple of frameworks in the past and the main thing that struck me is that they work far too hard in the name of being able to satisfy a wide variety of needs. This not only over-complicates the code but can also be a massive drain on runtime resources. I understand why they're like this but it's yet another reason I stick to my own collection. Anyways, back to work. -Stut Well put. Not speaking for you, but if we had listened to the there's only one way to do it types, we wouldn't have PC's on our desks but rather terminals. As they say in PERL, there's always more than one way to do it. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
At 5:24 PM +0300 4/22/08, Sancar Saran wrote: Hello there, Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework... Yes, and I'm programming with it. But, that's what jQuery and I call a library. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 12:29 PM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 5:24 PM +0300 4/22/08, Sancar Saran wrote: Hello there, Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework... Yes, and I'm programming with it. But, that's what jQuery and I call a library. interestingly, prototype claims it is a framework. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: interestingly, prototype claims it is a framework. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3A+frameworkbtnG=Google+Search Lots of differing opinions. :) Seeing as script.aculo.us and all that stuff is written on Prototype, it hits on some of those definitions. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Eric Butera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: interestingly, prototype claims it is a framework. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3A+frameworkbtnG=Google+Search Lots of differing opinions. :) Seeing as script.aculo.us and all that stuff is written on Prototype, it hits on some of those definitions. one characteristic i would attribute to frameworks is that they impose global conventions on a project, such as where certain types of files must reside; whether files can be placed in subdirectories, how urls must be formed and so on.. libraries can pretty much be included anywhere and the only conventions they impose is those that could be found in any other group of packages / classes / functions, proprietary or otherwise. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 13:14 -0600, Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Eric Butera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: interestingly, prototype claims it is a framework. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3A+frameworkbtnG=Google+Search Lots of differing opinions. :) Seeing as script.aculo.us and all that stuff is written on Prototype, it hits on some of those definitions. one characteristic i would attribute to frameworks is that they impose global conventions on a project, such as where certain types of files must reside; whether files can be placed in subdirectories, how urls must be formed and so on.. libraries can pretty much be included anywhere and the only conventions they impose is those that could be found in any other group of packages / classes / functions, proprietary or otherwise. I'm sure you meant some framework do what you've written above. :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:22 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 13:14 -0600, Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Eric Butera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: interestingly, prototype claims it is a framework. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=define%3A+frameworkbtnG=Google+Search Lots of differing opinions. :) Seeing as script.aculo.us and all that stuff is written on Prototype, it hits on some of those definitions. one characteristic i would attribute to frameworks is that they impose global conventions on a project, such as where certain types of files must reside; whether files can be placed in subdirectories, how urls must be formed and so on.. libraries can pretty much be included anywhere and the only conventions they impose is those that could be found in any other group of packages / classes / functions, proprietary or otherwise. I'm sure you meant some framework do what you've written above. :) sure :) -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 19:05 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. Or you may find you've got 999 classes of code you'll never use :) That would be one hell of an undertaking to piece them together. I'm going to guess you'll need namespaces too since I bet some of them step on each other's toes. Cheers, Rob. Obviously not a very good one, but that was in the spirit of a joke. ;-) -Shawn -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 16:50 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 19:05 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. Or you may find you've got 999 classes of code you'll never use :) That would be one hell of an undertaking to piece them together. I'm going to guess you'll need namespaces too since I bet some of them step on each other's toes. Cheers, Rob. Obviously not a very good one, but that was in the spirit of a joke. ;-) I took it that way :) Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 16:50 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 19:05 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. Or you may find you've got 999 classes of code you'll never use :) That would be one hell of an undertaking to piece them together. I'm going to guess you'll need namespaces too since I bet some of them step on each other's toes. Cheers, Rob. Obviously not a very good one, but that was in the spirit of a joke. ;-) I took it that way :) Cheers, Rob. Then say haha, not a long dissection of how sorry and shitty my post was :-) -Shawn -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 20:32 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2008-04-23 at 16:50 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 19:05 -0500, Shawn McKenzie wrote: Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. Or you may find you've got 999 classes of code you'll never use :) That would be one hell of an undertaking to piece them together. I'm going to guess you'll need namespaces too since I bet some of them step on each other's toes. Cheers, Rob. Obviously not a very good one, but that was in the spirit of a joke. ;-) I took it that way :) Cheers, Rob. Then say haha, not a long dissection of how sorry and shitty my post was :-) Hah hah! :B Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On 4/22/08, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP toy application. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] honestly, i never used any framework to do my coding. i look into few popular framework like cakePHP and codeIgiter. I did learn the tutorial but still decide whether to use it on my next project. the thing is, i already develop few working library. no matter how hard i look into it. i always find it is easier or simpler to work with just php code and it work just fine. simple code and i think faster than using complicated php framework. i target my code to use specific server configuration. the only advantages of using framework is cross server version (i don't need it). since everyone out there talking about framework. i still prefer using just php. i just wondering whether i am the only one thinking this way. anyone out there still doing php without using framework? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Kinch::The Missing Hacker
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:01 AM, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions. Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL - so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff, which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Yea, what he said! Now to add my nonsense into the mix... I don't actually use a full stack framework. What I've done is taken the best parts of various frameworks and made my own frankenstein that works along the way I think. I'm not saying I'm right, but I've given up trying to go against myself a long time ago. So I take components/ideas from Zend Framework, stubbles, Solar, and anything else that has good ideas. I've also built up a pretty nice library of code for my day to day stuff too. I've been doing web programming for many years now and most things usually work along the same guidelines. So finding out those common patterns and building little modular classes around them has saved me a lot of time. A lot of my little components aren't really framework-esque though. They serve a very specific purpose such as easily implementing a modified pre-order tree traversal, image manipulation, or file uploading. But to reliably do any of that you need a good consistent component base so that you know your database will adhere to these specific interfaces so that you can swap different peices in and out without breaking stuff. Knowing that I can stitch together a table gateway that will add, edit, remove records and be able to handle any type of file upload while adding in extra image manipulations without actually writing real code is huge in my book. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 21:06 +0800, Kinch Zhang wrote: On 4/22/08, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP toy application. And I disagree. I'm just putting the finishing touches on a large multi-user asset management system, built without a framework (apart from my own collection of objects I wrote and reuse to accelerate development). 40 000 lines of code and my previous version is currently being used by banks and such. We'll move them over to the new one soon. It's taken about 3 months full-time work. But, while I think there's nothing wrong with building from scratch as long as you architect carefully before you start, I think that there's also nothing wrong with frameworks. As long as you choose the one that is best going to suit your needs from the start, it can make life significantly easier. If you're building a web site for a client, you'd be insane to not seriously consider a CMS like Drupal or even WordPress (don't laugh - it's got quite a competent plug-in system and if you're in a rush you can bang something good out the door in a day.) I'm currently building a project based on CodeIgniter, and apart from quite a rigid structure, you do most of the stuff yourself anyhow. I dumped the built-in DB object for one of my own and now development is cruising. So, my philosophy is one of choosing the tool that best suits your needs, your client's needs and your project's needs, rather than using or not using frameworks based on some preconception. J -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions. Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL - so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff, which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework you use for the project. well, you have the point. but i know many open source php out there do not use specific framework. not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program. at some points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call it framework anyway. a good example is os-commerce and phpBB. I don't see any framework being use there except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a big program and i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) . you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine.
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
At 9:06 PM +0800 4/22/08, Kinch Zhang wrote: On 4/22/08, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. I agree , you couldn't avoid using a framework unless you're writing a PHP toy application. I must like writing mickey mouse programs and toy applications for they seem to solve my clients problems. Maybe some day I'll learn how to use a framework and then do some approved work, but I don't think my clients will notice much difference. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, 2008-04-22 at 21:25 +0800, paragasu wrote: If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions. Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL - so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff, which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework you use for the project. well, you have the point. but i know many open source php out there do not use specific framework. not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program. at some points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call it framework anyway. a good example is os-commerce and phpBB. I'm guessing, since you quoted os-commerce and phpBB, you don't know shit code when you see it. Just because it's popular doesn't mean the code is good. Have you ever tried to modify either of these? What a mess. I don't see any framework being use there except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a big program and i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) . you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine. 10k lines of code built over a framework is not the same as 10k lines that essentially required you to build your own framework. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. [/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. For example, I have just completed an ERP application which contains 130 database tables, 230 relationships and 1000 transactions. Because I used a proper framework I managed to complete all of this in just 6 months. The framework allowed me to generate initial working components without having to write any code whatsoever - no PHP, no HTML and no SQL - so that I could spend the bulk of my time on the really important stuff, which is implementing the business rules. That is the benefit of a proper framework - it takes care of the boring repetitive stuff and leaves you more time to deal with the tricky stuff. If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net wow! that is quite a big program u wrote. can you tell me what framework you use for the project. Try looking in my signature at http://www.radicore.org -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org well, you have the point. but i know many open source php out there do not use specific framework. not doing framework doesn't mean it is going to be a mickey mouse program. at some points, the code will built into a small library which someone might call it framework anyway. a good example is os-commerce and phpBB. I don't see any framework being use there except for specific coding guide lines. but the project still grow to be a big program and i bet the code can be over 10, 000 lines (i just guess, might not true) . you may call the code mickey mouse but the thing is it still working fine. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
I'm guessing, since you quoted os-commerce and phpBB, you don't know shit code when you see it. Just because it's popular doesn't mean the code is good. Have you ever tried to modify either of these? What a mess. honestly, i don't and not really interested to dig inside thus code. but i guess, modifying the phpBB code not easier than modifying the core of codeIgniter or CakePHP. 10k lines of code built over a framework is not the same as 10k lines that essentially required you to build your own framework. since framework already included a thousand line of code even before you start to do the program, i think it will be less code if we start to write the program on our own. Not to mention, the framework core take a lot of diskspace. some more than 2MB of code. My client is a small2 company. i manage to write code less than 300KB to do everything they ask me to do. Sure, i do not need all thus fancy feature (caching etc), i do not need multiple user or role based support provided by framework.
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Hello there, Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework... You are really doing tons of things with much less code. And jQuery was javaScript thingy and in php world nothing was comperable. My toughts about php frame work was; All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love. And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to make love. And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3 womens at a time. So ? if any of you frameworks can help me you are welcome. Otherwise please leave me alone. I had enough problems and I don't want to learn new vays to stuck around... Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love good joke sancar. i do not see any connection between framework and making love. if making love what you looking for. Porn might be a good answer for you. And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to make love. Everyone know how to do it the 1st time tough. I don't think anyone need too much time to learn one. And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3 womens at a time. I can suggest you to outsource. You need more people to do more task. Consider paying 2 staff to do just that.
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT! Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment. As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments. To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled as it is about utility code. I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code that covers everything I need to do regularly. If I have an itch it doesn't scratch I'll write it in a reusable way. The file layout and code library has definitely been put through it's paces and is currently in use on a 1.4m+ UUpM (~18m PVpM) site and several smaller properties so I know it works securely, reliably and it scales. I don't use third-party code libraries unless there's no other way of doing it or time constraints are in play. Maybe it's due to past experiences or maybe it's just the way I am, but I don't like using code written by people I don't know and trust unless I can spend time picking it apart, and generally I found it's quicker to start again. It's also worth noting the shocking quality of some open source projects. It may work but do you know how secure and stable it is? I've been forced to use a couple of frameworks in the past and the main thing that struck me is that they work far too hard in the name of being able to satisfy a wide variety of needs. This not only over-complicates the code but can also be a massive drain on runtime resources. I understand why they're like this but it's yet another reason I stick to my own collection. Anyways, back to work. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Sancar Saran wrote: Hello there, Is anyone looking jQuery recently ?. Thas what I call framework... You are really doing tons of things with much less code. And jQuery was javaScript thingy and in php world nothing was comperable. My toughts about php frame work was; All those frameworks claim their way was perfect for making love. And I say, I'm 34 years old, and I got enough knowladge to how to make love. And with this work load I need someting to help me make love with 3 womens at a time. So ? if any of you frameworks can help me you are welcome. I think Richard is working on an AI that might help you out here... It should be getting close to a 1.0 Public Beta by now... -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424-9337 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Try looking in my signature at http://www.radicore.org wow! i read your personal website and have it on my bookmark list. i salute you =)
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. [/snip] My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be offensive to others...oh well) You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever. Different strokes for different folks. Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons? Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On 4/22/08, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. [/snip] My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be offensive to others...oh well) You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever. Different strokes for different folks. Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons? Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Gonna throw my two cents in here. I think eventually we all end up using frameworks. We just roll our own. I have been using the same framwork that I wrote for a while now and its holding up nicely. But it also leaves a lot to be desired in terms of a pure OO approach. So I am working on projects using Zend and symfony and learning what their limitations are. My concern now-a-days is more about scalibility. The company I work for uses ASP and we've built a framework that doesn't scale well at all. But then OO in ASP is no go. To me, as to many of you, its about getting the correct tool for the job. This is where the component nature of the Zend framework is more appealing. I can pick and choose what I need without having the whole kit and kaboodle draining resources. Personally, I think the OO approach has relevance, but its not a panacea to cure all ills. And under the covers its procedural any ways. (Oh, that should raise some blood pressure ;-) ) Any way, my two cents. -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. [/snip] My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be offensive to others...oh well) You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever. Different strokes for different folks. Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons? Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done. i think once again we are faced with an vocabulary issue. what framework means to one person, might not hold for another. sure we can look at examples, code igniter, solar, zend, interjinn and radicore etc. but what is a framework really? there are plenty of definitions out there, but its pointless to even post them because i know we have all resigned to our own personal definitions as such. what i have noticed working in the industry for several years and several companies now is that every company has eventually tacked something together whereby they created a Rapid Application Development environment. so, if its time for another one of those things; well we already know how to do it, just use that code or w/e and add the new stuff or changes to create this new thing; done. its almost always the same story; some people are working on something and darwins rules apply; the shitty code eventually gets scrapped in favor of the nicer stuff the smart guys write. and while that stuff may not be as great as some of the stuff youll be able to find available for free download on the web, its good enough to get the job done and stand in place for years at a time. that said, one thing i can tell you is that ive not seen a single company using any of the freely available php frameworks available on the web today. this is like the 4th or 5th php shop im at so far. i have seen a greater tendency to use frameworks from the java camp, but my suspicion is that as php continues to age and mature companies will slowly start to use the frameworks in their products. especially ones getting started today and tomorrow. i think 5 years back when a lot of the companies ive worked at were getting started, there just werent as many options per frameworks and such. also, getting more to a ramble; i should mention that while none of the companies ive worked at have used any free frameworks, many have used libraries, like pecl. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Stut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT! Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment. As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments. To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled as it is about utility code. I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code that covers everything I need to do regularly. This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means to make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore does not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as providing a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also provide a series of high-level functions such as user authentication, role based access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a workflow system. The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org If I have an itch it doesn't scratch I'll write it in a reusable way. The file layout and code library has definitely been put through it's paces and is currently in use on a 1.4m+ UUpM (~18m PVpM) site and several smaller properties so I know it works securely, reliably and it scales. I don't use third-party code libraries unless there's no other way of doing it or time constraints are in play. Maybe it's due to past experiences or maybe it's just the way I am, but I don't like using code written by people I don't know and trust unless I can spend time picking it apart, and generally I found it's quicker to start again. It's also worth noting the shocking quality of some open source projects. It may work but do you know how secure and stable it is? I've been forced to use a couple of frameworks in the past and the main thing that struck me is that they work far too hard in the name of being able to satisfy a wide variety of needs. This not only over-complicates the code but can also be a massive drain on runtime resources. I understand why they're like this but it's yet another reason I stick to my own collection. Anyways, back to work. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip!] The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. I had never heard this before. Silly me I thought the real measure of a good framework was how much of the monotony of coding was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera. So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40 lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet the requirements. Once again, it's semantics. Everyone is saying the same thing, just not using the same terminology. -- /Daniel P. Brown Dedicated Servers - Intel 2.4GHz w/2TB bandwidth/mo. starting at just $59.99/mo. with no contract! Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. [/snip] We're not worthy...and many take less than 5 minutes. This is not the only real measure of a good framework, it is just one of many. I wrote a tool a long time ago that does the table/form/query bit in well under 5 minutes with several permutations. A good framework is measured by ease of use and solving of common problems. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip!] The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. I had never heard this before. Silly me I thought the real measure of a good framework was how much of the monotony of coding was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera. So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40 lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet the requirements. Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow the user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not qualify. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org Once again, it's semantics. Everyone is saying the same thing, just not using the same terminology. -- /Daniel P. Brown Dedicated Servers - Intel 2.4GHz w/2TB bandwidth/mo. starting at just $59.99/mo. with no contract! Dedicated servers, VPS, and hosting from $2.50/mo. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: Stut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT! Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment. As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments. To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled as it is about utility code. I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code that covers everything I need to do regularly. This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means to make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore does not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as providing a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also provide a series of high-level functions such as user authentication, role based access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a workflow system. Not to me, that would be a code library. A framework is something that would tie it all together and in doing so would introduce certain rules and restrictions. The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. If that's your attitude I'm very happy to be in a different league. I tend not to measure my productivity by how quickly I can develop functionality, but rather on how well it runs, scales and how user-friendly it is. I'm yet to meet a framework that satisfies those requirements. This is a personal preference and your arrogance has definitely put me off ever going near your code whether it be a framework or a hello world. You are not better than me just because you use something you call a framework, and the fact that you think you are has given me my biggest chuckle of the day, so thanks for that. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not the only real measure of a good framework, it is just one of many. I wrote a tool a long time ago that does the table/form/query bit in well under 5 minutes with several permutations. A good framework is measured by ease of use and solving of common problems. i agree with you here but i would add that there are tradeoffs in any design. for example, the great strength of code igniter is its simplicity; that is also its great weakness. its so simple; i and any newb could start cranking out pages in no time. but... alas, as i started to use ci for a project i uncovered many limitations. i consider it something only suitable for smaller applications after using it for just one project. as such, i suspect there are more complicated frameworks, whereby pages take more time to create initially, but have a smaller number of limitations. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
I had never heard this before. Silly me I thought the real measure of a good framework was how much of the monotony of coding was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera. So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40 lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet the requirements. Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow the user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not qualify. -- Tony Marston Wow, are you this full of yourself all the time, or just on the list? I mean, come on... I don't use a framework and never will classify what I do as a framework, though based off any one of a design book or framework book or some buzz-word lingo spouting tard what I do write and how I write could definitely fit in it's niche. But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't know how to RTFA of this list. And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type, before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug* And if it takes you 5 minutes to write that stuff with your framework, you're slow and need to work on your framework to be usable in a timely manner. Frameworks are all about making things easier on the coder to get things done in an efficient manner, no matter how you slice it, nor what it actually interacts with. They can be BASH or Perl or HereDoc or DocuFormat or PHP or C# or WYSIWYG. But if you really want to debate this, save the bandwidth and RTFA. Wolf -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
My 2 cents. I've found that people who buy into using frameworks think that it will establish order in the code, and improve the chances of a successful implimentation, and it sort of delivers on these two things most of the time. It never occurs to them that it also adds a level of complexity to your apps code (no free lunch here). Until you learn the ins and outs of the framework, much of your debugging time is spent fixing problems between your code and the framework, and sometimes between the framework and other things. IMO, the biggest factor in producing disorderly code is chasing evolving requirements, with and without a framework. Changing design requirements several times in a project will do that. Using a framework is not the guarantee you may be looking for (it could be, but it usually isn't). Warren Vail -Original Message- From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:17 AM To: Jay Blanchard Cc: Tony Marston; php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php? On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. [/snip] My mistake, you must be trolling. I forgot that you were better than all of the other PHP developers combined +1 says the President of Cuckoo Land. (I attempted to defend you so that your tone would not be offensive to others...oh well) You're right to a point, developers of large scale applications in PHP will likely re-use code and thereby develop even a small framework but a framework is not required to create robust, scalable, large scale applications in PHP. Certainly there will be a much higher time/management factor involved but there are several non-mickey mouse proper programs written in PHP that used no framework what-so-ever. Different strokes for different folks. Is there a value to a framework? Of course there is. Are there cons? Every framework comes with its own set of gotcha's too. What framework should you use? There are so many that it would be hard to know...it depends on the size and the scope of the work to be done. i think once again we are faced with an vocabulary issue. what framework means to one person, might not hold for another. sure we can look at examples, code igniter, solar, zend, interjinn and radicore etc. but what is a framework really? there are plenty of definitions out there, but its pointless to even post them because i know we have all resigned to our own personal definitions as such. what i have noticed working in the industry for several years and several companies now is that every company has eventually tacked something together whereby they created a Rapid Application Development environment. so, if its time for another one of those things; well we already know how to do it, just use that code or w/e and add the new stuff or changes to create this new thing; done. its almost always the same story; some people are working on something and darwins rules apply; the shitty code eventually gets scrapped in favor of the nicer stuff the smart guys write. and while that stuff may not be as great as some of the stuff youll be able to find available for free download on the web, its good enough to get the job done and stand in place for years at a time. that said, one thing i can tell you is that ive not seen a single company using any of the freely available php frameworks available on the web today. this is like the 4th or 5th php shop im at so far. i have seen a greater tendency to use frameworks from the java camp, but my suspicion is that as php continues to age and mature companies will slowly start to use the frameworks in their products. especially ones getting started today and tomorrow. i think 5 years back when a lot of the companies ive worked at were getting started, there just werent as many options per frameworks and such. also, getting more to a ramble; i should mention that while none of the companies ive worked at have used any free frameworks, many have used libraries, like pecl. -nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. -Tony Marston i can only think of copy paste method if i were required to write a PHP application without a single line of code even a simple hello world! application. i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a little harder.
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Stut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tony Marston wrote: Stut [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] If you don't use a framework then obviously you are writing nothing but mickey mouse programs, and wouldn't stand a chance when it comes to writing a proper application. ..If you think you can achieve the same level of productivity WITHOUT a framework then you are living in cloud \cuckoo land. \[/snip] Tony is obviously joking here folks. No I'm not. Shocking and unexpected opinion from the developer of a framework. NOT! Anyway, I can see this falling into another lengthy discussion so I'll get my contribution in early to avoid disappointment. As others have mentioned this question is plagued by semantic arguments. To me a framework is as much about the way requests are routed and handled as it is about utility code. I don't use what I would call a framework, but I do have a well-established file layout for my sites and an extensive library of code that covers everything I need to do regularly. This could be classed as a framework as it obviously provides the means to make use of all that code which has already been written and therefore does not (or should not) need to be written again and again. As well as providing a few low-level routines a fully fledged framework will also provide a series of high-level functions such as user authentication, role based access control, dynamic menus, audit logging and perhaps a workflow system. Not to me, that would be a code library. A framework is something that would tie it all together and in doing so would introduce certain rules and restrictions. That's exactly what my framework does. It gives immediate access to a great deal of standard functionality without having to reinvent the wheel. The real measure of a good framework is the length of time it takes to create a new database table, then write the components to maintain the contents of that table. I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. If that's your attitude I'm very happy to be in a different league. I tend not to measure my productivity by how quickly I can develop functionality, but rather on how well it runs, scales and how user-friendly it is. I'm yet to meet a framework that satisfies those requirements. I tend to write applications which only expect to have a low number of users and where the speed of development, and hence the cost, is the most important issue. This is a personal preference and your arrogance has definitely put me off ever going near your code whether it be a framework or a hello world. You are not better than me just because you use something you call a framework, and the fact that you think you are has given me my biggest chuckle of the day, so thanks for that. -Stut Glad to be of service. Don't applaud, just throw money. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 9:54 AM, paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i can only think of copy paste method if i were required to write a PHP application without a single line of code even a simple hello world! application. i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a little harder. imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:54 AM, paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can do this in 5 minutes without having to write a single line of PHP, HTML or SQL. If you can't match this then you're not in the same league. -Tony Marston i can only think of copy paste method if i were required to write a PHP application without a single line of code even a simple hello world! application. i am really cannot be in the same league :( . well, i might have to work a little harder. Do frameworks help our work productivity so much that we can really continue this debate on how much time they save us? ;) In the end it is always about getting the job done. If vanilla php does that for you, then good. It will execute much faster since there's less overhead. Plus we all understand php so your work will be very portable between programmers. That method doesn't work well for me given client demands and constant changing requirements. I need something that can provide lots of different functionality yet not hinder really custom stuff where it is needed. So find that balance. Try building a site using some random framework. Then compare what that took versus your current setup. Keep in mind the first attempt won't truly be a fair comparison because of the learning curve of exploiting the potential of the framework. Also keep in mind what it is you're trying to accomplish. Some sites are very basic while others are quite complex. It's up to you to know what the site needs to be able to do today and in 6 months. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I had never heard this before. Silly me I thought the real measure of a good framework was how much of the monotony of coding was removed, how many problems solved, et cetera. So I guess the BASh script I just whipped up a few seconds ago could be classified as a good framework. Since it's less than 40 lines, and doesn't require me to write any PHP, HTML, or SQL, I meet the requirements. Unless you are creating a PHP component which uses HTML forms to allow the user to communicate with a relational database then no, it does not qualify. -- Tony Marston Wow, are you this full of yourself all the time, or just on the list? I mean, come on... I don't use a framework and never will classify what I do as a framework, though based off any one of a design book or framework book or some buzz-word lingo spouting tard what I do write and how I write could definitely fit in it's niche. But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't know how to RTFA of this list. And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type, before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug* But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org And if it takes you 5 minutes to write that stuff with your framework, you're slow and need to work on your framework to be usable in a timely manner. Frameworks are all about making things easier on the coder to get things done in an efficient manner, no matter how you slice it, nor what it actually interacts with. They can be BASH or Perl or HereDoc or DocuFormat or PHP or C# or WYSIWYG. But if you really want to debate this, save the bandwidth and RTFA. Wolf -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? [/snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? [/snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we can all share in your wizardry? -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D -nathan i am going to miss the fun doing programming then. As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal. sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking part. Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a factories to produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent framework so other people can use it to create many program. If for productivity. canned food is good. But i think, i still prefer sweet sour fried rice over canned food. don't you?
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02 AM, paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D -nathan i am going to miss the fun doing programming then. As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal. sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking part. Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a factories to produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent framework so other people can use it to create many program. If for productivity. canned food is good. But i think, i still prefer sweet sour fried rice over canned food. don't you? if you want to go w/ a cooking analogy, i tend to think of a framework as going to a professional restaurant; where they have a nice infrastructure to build out many different types of meals. over time you learn this infrastructure and leverage it to construct your own famous recipies. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
But then, this debate comes up about once a month because people don't know how to RTFA of this list. And I don't know about you, but I've written a BASH script to work with my PHP script to work with an API to deal with relational and flat files and mail interfaces that takes me 1 line of code to use and 5 seconds to type, before my morning Mt. Dew. *shrug* But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? *YAWN* yeah, I have another script that'll do that. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we can all share in your wizardry? [/snip] It is not a framework, it is a set of functions. But since we are in a semantical discussion about frameworks then this re-usable code is in fact a framework, albeit a small one just for forms. It may not be that much of a framework though as I doubt you could complete a proper program without some other frameworky like elements thrown in. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? [/snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we can all share in your wizardry? http://cakephp.org Not sure about the audit logging and I have no idea what a workflow system is. -Shawn -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we can all share in your wizardry? [/snip] It is not a framework, it is a set of functions. But since we are in a semantical discussion about frameworks then this re-usable code is in fact a framework, albeit a small one just for forms. It may not be that much of a framework though as I doubt you could complete a proper program without some other frameworky like elements thrown in. You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Frameworks not only are great for piecing together an application quickly with user management, content filtering, access control, etc..., there is another HUGE advantage to using a framework. If the framework you are using has a thriving community behind it, the framework will constantly get better, which means the software you write will get better with little effort from yourself, just by running updates on the core framework. Frameworks exist to make it easier for developers to solve common problems quickly. Every developer may have their own way that they think is the best way to solve a certain problem. They'll cut and paste their custom component that they wrote into all the applications that need to solve this same problem. This works, but is this the best solution? On the other hand, if the developer uses a framework with a community behind it, there is probably a component in the framework that already solves that common problem. The developer can easily include that component to solve the problem, and if the developer, after reviewing the code of the component, sees that there is a security concern or performance concern with this component, the developer can enhance the component. The developer can then submit this patched version of the component back to the framework community for review and eventually get included into the core framework. For example, lets say that the user access component of a framework recently got a speed increase of 25% after the refactoring by some developer that also uses this component in the framework. The rest of the developers that use this framework now benefit from this. They can install this patch to all the applications that use this component and reap the benefits of another developers time to optimize the user access system. The second developer didn't have to write any code, just run an update. When developers contribute back to a common set of tools, the tools get better, more secure, more optimized and in the end you get a better product. You're also not coding in a vacuum, you get the opportunity to see how other developers solve problems, and adapt the techniques you like to your own. You could potentially learn a lot, just by adopting a widely used framework. You may even realized that there are a lot of people out there that a lot smarter than you when it comes to a certain part of your application. Frameworks are a great learning experience. -Tom Friedhof On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:02 AM, paragasu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: imagine a cms, like drupal or joomla. you install the thing w/ the web based installer then go through adding content via the web interface; u can do it :D -nathan i am going to miss the fun doing programming then. As a comparison, framework is like a canned food. available anytime you wan't. but still, it doesn't give me the fun of cooking my own meal. sometimes, it is not about eating that make me happy. it is the cooking part. Same goes for programming. Great cooker invent good recipe and make a factories to produce the same product in a large number. Great programmer invent framework so other people can use it to create many program. If for productivity. canned food is good. But i think, i still prefer sweet sour fried rice over canned food. don't you? if you want to go w/ a cooking analogy, i tend to think of a framework as going to a professional restaurant; where they have a nice infrastructure to build out many different types of meals. over time you learn this infrastructure and leverage it to construct your own famous recipies. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? I didn't originally want to get in the middle of a fist fight, but I've been reading this all day, and I really have to ask... What in the world is wrong with you? Did you get picked on by the kids in the science club always saying their framework was better than yours? You seem to be arguing that your framework is the only one that anyone should use, and is capable of getting the job done. You based this claim on a senseless argument that you can build a table and generate some page to handle it in under 5 minutes. Who cares? Do you know what a framework really is? Is it solely a means by which to build an application in as little time as possible? Many on the list are saying We wrote our own, we don't like or want to use the ones out there. Think about the reasons... We have applications we build internally that either (1) the frameworks can't get done, or (2) the frameworks are way overkill. You are essentially arguing the same point that everyone else is. You've just isolated it to Radicore. Do you even realize that? -- -Dan Joseph Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life.
RE: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
[snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Shawn McKenzie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] But can you create a database table, then generate the PHP scripts which generate the HTML and SQL which allow an online user to read, write, update and delete records from this table without writing even a single line of code? Can you do this with immediate access to a role based access control system, an audit logging system and a workflow system? [/snip] Yes, and it doesn't take 5 minutes. Then where can us mere mortals download this wonderful framework so that we can all share in your wizardry? http://cakephp.org Not sure about the audit logging and I have no idea what a workflow system is. -Shawn Audit logging - http://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/auditlog.html Workflow - http://www.tonymarston.net/php-mysql/workflow.html -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Dan Joseph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Tony Marston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? I didn't originally want to get in the middle of a fist fight, but I've been reading this all day, and I really have to ask... What in the world is wrong with you? Did you get picked on by the kids in the science club always saying their framework was better than yours? You seem to be arguing that your framework is the only one that anyone should use, and is capable of getting the job done. If you bother to read what I have written you will see that I have ever made any such claims. I have simply been answerng the questions what is a framework and what are the benefits of using a framework You based this claim on a senseless argument that you can build a table and generate some page to handle it in under 5 minutes. I am saying that using a framework will allow you to create components much quicker than not using a framework for the simple reason that you don't have to keep writing code to reinvent the wheel - you reuse code that is provided within the framework. Who cares? Do you know what a framework really is? Actually I do. I have been developing software over three decades in three different languages. I have used many frameworks written by other people, but I have always been far more productive using framedworks which I have written myself. Is it solely a means by which to build an application in as little time as possible? There are two parts to a framework - (a) the ability to generate new components, and (b) providing a runtime environment with which to run those components. Many on the list are saying We wrote our own, we don't like or want to use the ones out there. Think about the reasons... We have applications we build internally that either (1) the frameworks can't get done, or (2) the frameworks are way overkill. I agree that finding the right framework to use can be very difficult, which is why a lot of programmers (like me) prefer to roll their own. But if you can find an off-the-shelf framework that does the job it can save you an awful amount of time. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org You are essentially arguing the same point that everyone else is. You've just isolated it to Radicore. Do you even realize that? I know nothing, I'm from Barcelona! :) -Dan Joseph Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for the rest of the day. Light a man on fire, and will be warm for the rest of his life. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. -- Tony Marston http://www.tonymarston.net http://www.radicore.org -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: php framework vs just php?
Tony Marston wrote: Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [snip] You haven't answered the question. Where can this piece of wizardry be downloaded so that it can be reviewed by your peers? [/snip] It is not available for download So your claims cannot be substantiated by anyone in this group. but it has been reviewed by peers on several project teams who have used it. It was developed specifically for a company who owns the work product. I have not re-created for general use by mere mortals but I will soon. Let me know when as I could do with a good laugh. Well, if you would take the time to individually download 1,000 classes and piece them together you may find a very feature rich framework: http://www.phpclasses.org. Or maybe meta storage http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html. -- Regards, Manuel Lemos PHP Classes - Free ready to use OOP components written in PHP http://www.phpclasses.org/ PHP Reviews - Reviews of PHP books and other products http://www.phpclasses.org/reviews/ Metastorage - Data object relational mapping layer generator http://www.meta-language.net/metastorage.html -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
