Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Steve Palincsar]

On 10/06/2015 07:38 AM, Dave Brandt wrote:

I recently tore part of the weld an in the direction that would have been from 
putting it up into the riding position.
I have used them on several bikes and I had one directly mounted to the 
kickstand plate on my Saga. On my last tour I noticed some fender rub that I 
have never had before. When I got home I discovered the worse, it had pulled a 
small amount of the plate off the frame, which appears to have torn the weld 
off the frame. I'm unsure if it did any permanent structural damage but I will 
probably replace a frame I loved.
My excuse to get a new Rivendell touring frame soon.


You don't think it might be worth getting a frame builder to evaluate 
the damage?




I personally will never use another double again, it's just not worth the risk.



Didn't Rivendell include on its web site a way in which you could safely 
use a double?


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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Dave Brandt]

 I keep my bikes pretty spotless and I was considering an Appaloosa when they 
come out. Now it helps me make my mind up to swap the parts over and donate the 
frame. Hopefully it is superficial but I won't trust it and if it does need 
repair I would need to get it repainted, making that frame really not worth it 
to me.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Dave Brandt]

I recently tore part of the weld an in the direction that would have been from 
putting it up into the riding position.
I have used them on several bikes and I had one directly mounted to the 
kickstand plate on my Saga. On my last tour I noticed some fender rub that I 
have never had before. When I got home I discovered the worse, it had pulled a 
small amount of the plate off the frame, which appears to have torn the weld 
off the frame. I'm unsure if it did any permanent structural damage but I will 
probably replace a frame I loved.
My excuse to get a new Rivendell touring frame soon.
I personally will never use another double again, it's just not worth the risk.

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Matthew J]

Apparently when Riv is temporarily out of items it is pulling the item page 
altogether with plans to return when merchandise is back in stock.  At 
least that was the consensus when I recently started a thread on the 
missing MUSA Pants ad.  Given the double leg kickstands come from 
Switzerland, I imagine there is a definite buy window.  When Riv gets more 
the ad comes back.

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:27:23 PM UTC-5, hangtownmatt wrote:
>
> It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web 
> site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?
>
> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:51:02 PM UTC-7, Will @ Riv wrote:
>>
>> Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have 
>> two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel 
>> and a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese 
>> frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the 
>> thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt a 
>> double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the 
>> heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
>> pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have 
>> one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and 
>> run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can 
>> (and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra 
>> safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine 
>> on either plate, always. 
>>
>> It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, so 
>> if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our absolute 
>> best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.
>>
>> -Will
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Matthew J]

That would make sense.  But a fellow RBWer made hay about laughing at my No 
More MUSA Pants thread claiming they will be back in stock later.  

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 4:08:01 PM UTC-5, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I don't know... King Iris cages are currently out of stock, and still are 
> shown on the site. 
> They only say out of stock when you attempt to put one in your cart.
>
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:49:19 PM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:
>>
>> Apparently when Riv is temporarily out of items it is pulling the item 
>> page altogether with plans to return when merchandise is back in stock.  At 
>> least that was the consensus when I recently started a thread on the 
>> missing MUSA Pants ad.  Given the double leg kickstands come from 
>> Switzerland, I imagine there is a definite buy window.  When Riv gets more 
>> the ad comes back.
>>
>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:27:23 PM UTC-5, hangtownmatt wrote:
>>>
>>> It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web 
>>> site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:51:02 PM UTC-7, Will @ Riv wrote:

 Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have 
 two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel 
 and a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent 
 Taiwanese 
 frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the 
 thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt 
 a 
 double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the 
 heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
 pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have 
 one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and 
 run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can 
 (and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra 
 safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine 
 on either plate, always. 

 It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, 
 so if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our 
 absolute 
 best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.

 -Will



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[cyclotourist]

Couldn't tell you that one! :-)

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 6:21 PM, Matthew J  wrote:
> That would make sense.  But a fellow RBWer made hay about laughing at my No
> More MUSA Pants thread claiming they will be back in stock later.
>
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 4:08:01 PM UTC-5, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I don't know... King Iris cages are currently out of stock, and still are
>> shown on the site.
>> They only say out of stock when you attempt to put one in your cart.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:49:19 PM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:
>>>
>>> Apparently when Riv is temporarily out of items it is pulling the item
>>> page altogether with plans to return when merchandise is back in stock.  At
>>> least that was the consensus when I recently started a thread on the missing
>>> MUSA Pants ad.  Given the double leg kickstands come from Switzerland, I
>>> imagine there is a definite buy window.  When Riv gets more the ad comes
>>> back.
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:27:23 PM UTC-5, hangtownmatt wrote:

 It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web
 site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?

 On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:51:02 PM UTC-7, Will @ Riv wrote:
>
> Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have
> two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel 
> and
> a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese
> frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the
> thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt 
> a
> double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the
> heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
> pry
> the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have one 
> of
> those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and run the
> long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can (and 
> maybe
> should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra safe.
> Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine on
> either plate, always.
>
> It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game,
> so if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our 
> absolute
> best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.
>
> -Will
>
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-- 
Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

I don't know... King Iris cages are currently out of stock, and still are 
shown on the site. 
They only say out of stock when you attempt to put one in your cart.


On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 1:49:19 PM UTC-7, Matthew J wrote:
>
> Apparently when Riv is temporarily out of items it is pulling the item 
> page altogether with plans to return when merchandise is back in stock.  At 
> least that was the consensus when I recently started a thread on the 
> missing MUSA Pants ad.  Given the double leg kickstands come from 
> Switzerland, I imagine there is a definite buy window.  When Riv gets more 
> the ad comes back.
>
> On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 2:27:23 PM UTC-5, hangtownmatt wrote:
>>
>> It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web 
>> site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?
>>
>> On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:51:02 PM UTC-7, Will @ Riv wrote:
>>>
>>> Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have 
>>> two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel 
>>> and a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese 
>>> frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the 
>>> thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt a 
>>> double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the 
>>> heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
>>> pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have 
>>> one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and 
>>> run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can 
>>> (and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra 
>>> safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine 
>>> on either plate, always. 
>>>
>>> It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, 
>>> so if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our absolute 
>>> best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.
>>>
>>> -Will
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

It looks like the double legger is no longer available through Riv's web 
site.  Not out of stock but non-existent.  Did I miss something?

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 6:51:02 PM UTC-7, Will @ Riv wrote:
>
> Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have 
> two kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel 
> and a lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese 
> frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the 
> thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt a 
> double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the 
> heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
> pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have 
> one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and 
> run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can 
> (and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra 
> safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine 
> on either plate, always. 
>
> It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, so 
> if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our absolute 
> best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.
>
> -Will
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Minh]

Well I may have one to sell if you really want one. 

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Surlyprof]

I double checked my Hillborne after reading this thread.  I hadn't caught 
that warning when I replaced my single with a double and this thread made 
me nervous.  Mine is a 2012 and has the u-section plate that Tim referred 
to.  It is the thinner metal but the u-section seats the kickstand nicely. 
 Dug through the parts drawers and found the chainstay mounting bracket 
that came with the stand.  It was easily installed and I am no longer 
nervous.  Thanks for bringing this up.

John

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Alistair Spence]

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 12:29:42 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Frankly, having tried Pletscher and VO 2-leg stands, as well as the usual 
 Greenfeld bb stand, I've found left rear dropout stands most effective at 
 holding up a bike under assymetrical rear loads, even with 20 lb in the 
 pannier on the stand-side and none on the opposite. 

 That said, I remember someone on some list pointing to a specialist 
 center-mount 2-leg stand with much wider legs than those of the Pletscher 
 and VO stands, that apparently was much more apt to support assymetrical 
 rear loads -- perhaps someone knows what this is?



Greetings, 

I was pointed to this thread from the IBob list. I haven't checked out the 
RBW list for some years, but good to see a lot of familiar names here. 
Anyway, in trying to answer Patrick's question abvove, my guess would be 
the Ursus centerstand. I've been using one for 4 years or so, on my porteur 
bike. That bike gets loaded up quite heavily at times (40 - 45lbs on the 
front rack, up to 130lbs or so in the trailer). The stand has had no 
problem in standing up to it all and is still going strong. A whiff of 
thread locker on the mounting bolt stopped loosening issues that cropped up 
every six months or so. The kickstand is mounted to a 1/8 thick plate that 
I brazed to the underside of the chainstays.

Some Flickr links to give you an idea of the setup,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251271273/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/duncancycles/6251270869/in/dateposted-public/


The Ursus stand replaced a two legged Pletscher stand, which was proving to 
be unsatisfactory in terms of it's stability. Marked improvement, the Ursus 
is way more stable, and the bike no longer gets torqued over onto the 
ground by a heavily laden trailer.

My 2 cents,


Alistair Spence,
Seattle, WA.

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Upon visual inspection of my 2012 Sam Hillborne and my wife's 2012 Betty 
Foy, both Taiwanese built, both appear to have the unstout plate.  Not a 
term I ever thought would ever be associated with anything Rivendell. 

Before removing my single legged kickstand, I experimented this week and 
pretended it wasn't there.  What I found is that kickstands are very very 
convenient.  It'll take a little getting use to, especially loading and 
unloading, but the worse was on the two occasions I took my bike into a 
business.  Neither of these places mind me bringing the bike inside but 
they prefer I leave the bike at Customer Service and not wheel it around 
the store.  On both occasions I deployed the kickstand because I felt bad 
leaning it up against their counter, wall, display etc. and possibly 
damaging something.  Funny thing is I've been riding bikes my whole life 
and other than briefly decades ago never had a kickstand.  Now I'm not sure 
I can live without it.  As of now my plan is to remove the kickstand but I 
think I'll continue to experiment a bit more.

Matt

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Lungimsam]

My Father-in-law had that kinda kickstand back in China.
I don't think I'd like the weight of that kstand either.
China's got great ideas for baby seats and umbrella holders, too.

But in Canton China, seems like people are just cruising to work/school. 
Nobody cares about average speeds and I don't think there are many, if 
any, hills to climb in Guangzhou, China!!! They don't like helmets, 
either!! Too hot!!! Everything over there is pure function. They even ride 
their bikes when they are soo rusted!! You couldn't go fast if you 
tried in Canton - too crowded and no one seems to observe any kind of 
right-of-way or traffic laws, except the cars who have to stop at red 
lights.

No one has to worry about parts failing on 30+ mile descents, like we do 
here in the States. They are cruising flat in crowded traffic at 10mph with 
bike shops on every corner, so to speak!

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Kieran J]

This web special Cheviot's description bears mention of a stout plate. So 
I guess there's more than one plate in use across the Riv model range?
The message indicates reassures that DL kickstands are safe to use, so 
maybe they are not danger absolute after all.

http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/wsf-155.htm

KJ


On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Woody Peterson]

I front-load my bike, so simulated a rear load and yeah, I can imagine the 
angled forces that could affect the plate. Under a front load, though, 
everything's pretty level and stacked.

Also, I agree with the OP; I bought my Pletcher at Riv's recommendation, 
but haven't found it to be wildly better. In fact, here's a more analytical 
look as to why it might be worse:

http://www.tamiasoutside.com/2009/04/13/pletscher/


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-oEdB_mhfE0M/VdZbkapMhjI/AfU/XE7gvA6vw-U/s1600/ks12.jpg

I find that the two-legger is slightly better, mostly because I can sink 
the legs into soft dirt and it becomes almost un-tippable. Other than that, 
one leg isn't that bad (or maybe better).

On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 10:21:21 AM UTC-7, Kieran J wrote:

 This web special Cheviot's description bears mention of a stout plate. 
 So I guess there's more than one plate in use across the Riv model range?
 The message indicates reassures that DL kickstands are safe to use, so 
 maybe they are not danger absolute after all.

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/wsf-155.htm

 KJ


 On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate 
 on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they 
 really like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super 
 smooth/flat ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[William deRosset]

That's the same spot I've seen two other (heavily-used, but not old) Surlys 
crack. Drive-side, just behind the  chainstay bridge. Both replaced under 
warranty without a lot of grief.

In a related note, Chainstays seem to be where heavily-used bikes die 
(eventually). It is a highly-stressed part, though the big-mile bikes that 
die due to old age ordinarily will break out near the dropout...

Best,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 10:50:23 PM UTC-6, hangtownmatt wrote:

 Here is a Surly LHT with a cracked chainstay right about where a kickstand 
 plate on a Rivendell would be mounted.  Granted this bike does have some 
 miles and has been on the road a while, but he doesn't use a kickstand and 
 judging from his experience I'd say your lucky if all that happens is the 
 kickstand plate deforms.  What I've derived from all this is that 
 chainstays are subject to a lot more stress than we realize and are subject 
 to failure.

 https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tSpage_id=432317v=S

 By the way - this is a pretty entertaining blog.  Currently he's in 
 Austrailia and it's pretty boring, but if you follow from the beginning 
 it's entertaining.  I think so anyway.

 Matt




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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Kainalu]

Top plated double has caused no problems with my unstout plated 
Waterfordborne Sam, glad I didn't have a short bolt handy at the time I was 
installing it. I removed it anyways. So far I don't miss it, and having it 
gone has given me the idea I should seek more stumps to jump when 
unloaded/featheryish.
-Kai


On Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 11:26:20 PM UTC-4, peec...@yahoo.com wrote:

 My story is exactly as yours except 4 years on my carelessly overloaded 
 Sam H with the same kickstand setup.  So I'm nervous too.  Tim Petersen



 On Saturday, August 15, 2015 3:27 PM, Kainalu kaivi...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:


 I use the top plated double legger on my Hillborne and have been 
 carelessly overloading it for 3+ years. No problems ever but I should have 
 a closer look (not having examined the chainstays since I installed the 
 kickstand I'm a bit nervous to, I'll let you know...)
 -Kai


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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Will @ Riv]

Basically it's this, and I'm sorry we've been unclear about it: We have two 
kickstand plates, a stout one with almost a quarter inch thick steel and a 
lighter one that is about as thick as a nickel. Most recent Taiwanese 
frames have the stout plates, and most Waterford-built frames have the 
thinner plates, but there's probably some overlap somewhere. You can bolt a 
double legger directly to a thick plate and not worry about it, but the 
heavy weight and super strong spring of the double will sometimes slowly 
pry the thin plates off towards the bottom bracket shell, so if you have 
one of those and you want to use a double, use the sandwich hardware and 
run the long bolt through the hole in the plate to the kickstand. You can 
(and maybe should) do that on the stout plates too if you want to be extra 
safe. Singles are what the plates were designed around, and those are fine 
on either plate, always. 

It's a rare problem, but one we figured out a little late in the game, so 
if it's happening to you please give us a call and we'll do our absolute 
best to help you. Talk to me or Keven.

-Will

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Larry H]

I've had a double leg attached to the plate on my Sam Hillborne since 
2012.  It's been on and off a few times with no damage noted.  Granted, I 
do not heavily load the bike for touring.  I run a trunk sack in the rear 
with maybe 5 pounds at the most.  This does cause the bike to rest on the 
rear tire with the kickstand down.

Another point that no one seems to have mentioned is that the double leg 
does not fit on the plate out of the box.  Mine needed to have quite a bit 
of material filed off just to fit the stand.  Thus, I doubt that the 
installed weight is the same as the factory weight.  I don't see the weight 
of the kickstand being a factor in deforming the plate.  It has to be the 
side to side forces that would cause damage.

At this point, I may remount per Riv's new recommendation with the top 
plate and plastic chainstay protectors.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['tim petersen' via RBW Owners Bunch]

My story is exactly as yours except 4 years on my carelessly overloaded Sam H 
with the same kickstand setup.  So I'm nervous too.  Tim Petersen 


 On Saturday, August 15, 2015 3:27 PM, Kainalu kaiviers...@gmail.com 
wrote:
   

 I use the top plated double legger on my Hillborne and have been carelessly 
overloading it for 3+ years. No problems ever but I should have a closer look 
(not having examined the chainstays since I installed the kickstand I'm a bit 
nervous to, I'll let you know...)
-Kai

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['Tim Petersen' via RBW Owners Bunch]

My Sammy has a plate bent into a shallow U which captures the head of the 
kickstand which prevents rotation under load. 



Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 16, 2015, at 11:02 AM, Lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 1. Perhaps integration is the key.
 A bike that has a kickstand built into the frame in such a way that it 
 doesn't damage anything to have the kickstand used with or without the bike 
 loaded up to 100 lbs.
 Since this means tourers, I don't think the consumers would mind a built in 
 k-stand since they are planning to load the bike up anyway.
 Other, non-touring specific models could just have regular plates for one 
 leggers.
 
 2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I 
 remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.
 
 
 
  
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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[drew]

update: took mine off the 1 yr old hunqapillar which is almost exclusively 
used for loaded touring (though mostly front loaded).  the kickstand plate 
is definitely not flat like it used to be, but the edges seem to be 
attached to the chainstays fine.  happy i removed it before it started 
pulling away. 

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Lungimsam]

Wonder if single leggers do this to frames, too.

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Kieran J]

What about a double-legger for strictly front-loading, i.e., on a porteur?

If the main carrying weight of the bike is on the front, and the front 
wheel is always supporting it by virtue of never leaving the ground, would 
a plate-mounted kickstand that elevates the rear wheel and only supports 
the bike's weight (or a good chunk of it) be a more suitable application of 
the design?

KJ

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:15:44 AM UTC-4, Will wrote:

 This has been an interesting discussion. 

 I am wondering if Riv's preferences for large seat bags exerabates the 
 kickstand problems. 


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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Will]

This has been an interesting discussion. 

I am wondering if Riv's preferences for large seat bags exerabates the 
kickstand problems. Large seat bags put cargo weight high and slightly 
behind the kickstand strut (when parked), so that the kickstand strut 
doesn't directly support the weight. Instead, the frame bears the weight 
and that stresses the kickstand plate rather than the strut-to-ground 
support plan. 

I use a low rail rack and panniers that place cargo weight over the rear 
axle. I do not expect to have kickstand problems. 

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 4:44:00 PM UTC-5, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Tom Virgil]

Minh,

Exactly what I did on Sam and the Boulder.  Gone.  Not missing them.

~Tom

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 1:18:14 PM UTC-7, Minh wrote:

 Hmm I think it's time to lighten my Sam and take off the kickstand.  

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RE: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Seems to me that the load on a 2-legger might be much less on a front load bike 
like the P/R than on the typical Riv bike

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 9:10 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand.  Evidently 
experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged kickstand.  
 Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm using a built-in plate 
with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R Porteur -- but I don't use it in 
such a way as to over-stress the plate.  We've seen at least one testimonial 
(from Shawn) about what can happen when you do that and it all goes pear-shaped.

The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do it, even 
though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way it seems sensible 
to you and take your chances.  Or, as someone in a movie once put it, You've 
got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I feel lucky?'  Well, do ya?
On 08/14/2015 07:42 PM, drew wrote:
hey steve,
here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached directly 
to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to do... on the same 
page

[https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y9vWhHvKBag/Vc55O0WcbvI/Aak/80Y_xm7lifA/s320/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.26%2BPM.png]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y9vWhHvKBag/Vc55O0WcbvI/Aak/80Y_xm7lifA/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.26%2BPM.png[https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-03LdaVyO7Tk/Vc5472aalfI/Aac/ZV08-XwJ2qU/s320/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.39%2BPM.png]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-03LdaVyO7Tk/Vc5472aalfI/Aac/ZV08-XwJ2qU/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.39%2BPM.png



also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike without a 
kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into the kickstand without 
passing through a bike mounted plate. on This 
Pagehttp://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k5.htm you can see an expanded version 
of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about how to attach the 
stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the case, you would of course 
need to use the top plate. im just saying, that i dont see a picture of the 
kickstand attached in the way they seem to be saying to attach it, and i see a 
few showing it in the way it seems like they are saying NOT to attach it.



Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much about 
mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have the kickstand 
attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, i was more just 
curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you have to still 
clamp down on the chainstays. i still have the top plate, and can do it, it 
just looks better, and seems better to use the built in plate... was my thinking


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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Bill Lindsay]

A velcro legband also makes an excellent parking brake, wrapped tight 
around the brakelever
An Arno Strap or Irish strap makes an excellent Flopper Stopper wrapped 
tight around the downtube and front wheel  



On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-7, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 Patrick: Flickstand does 2 things: keeps the wheel from rotating or 
 steering (flopping). If you can get a rubber band to do both I would be 
 dually impressed... 

 Bobby maybe I don't know rubber bands Birmingham

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Montclair BobbyB]

Patrick: Flickstand does 2 things: keeps the wheel from rotating or steering 
(flopping). If you can get a rubber band to do both I would be dually 
impressed...

Bobby maybe I don't know rubber bands Birmingham

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Steve Palincsar]

I would expect so.

On 08/17/2015 11:20 AM, Allingham II, Thomas J wrote:


Seems to me that the load on a 2-legger might be much less on a front 
load bike like the P/R than on the typical Riv bike


*From:*rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve Palincsar

*Sent:* Friday, August 14, 2015 9:10 PM
*To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand.  Evidently 
experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged 
kickstand.   Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm 
using a built-in plate with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R 
Porteur -- but I don't use it in such a way as to over-stress the 
plate.  We've seen at least one testimonial (from Shawn) about what 
can happen when you do that and it all goes pear-shaped.


The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do 
it, even though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way 
it seems sensible to you and take your chances. Or, as someone in a 
movie once put it, You've got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I 
feel lucky?'  Well, do ya?





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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[M D Smith]

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 1:06:02 PM UTC-4, Montclair BobbyB wrote:

 Patrick: Flickstand does 2 things: keeps the wheel from rotating or 
 steering (flopping). If you can get a rubber band to do both I would be 
 dually impressed... 

 Bobby maybe I don't know rubber bands Birmingham


To which I can't help but reply: 

 [image: Displaying IMG_6932.JPG]

Funny, I was going to mention this method before I saw your challenge to be 
impressed. 

This method works well.  It's not as great with a really loaded bike, but 
something like an old toe clip works better than a Kickstand:

[image: Displaying IMG_6933.JPG]


Just not as quick or light as the rubber band method (which I first saw at 
a bike shop, to keep their floor stock under control, flop-wise...)  I keep 
an extra strap on my bike (usually looped around the handlebar, near the 
stem) just for this purpose.  An irish strap would work, as well.  The 
strap doubles as a pants-cuff-retainer.  Never do you need both at the same 
time...  I guess you could also use a high quality reflective velcro 
retainer, two birds with one stone.

I've always thought it was a bit ridiculous when Rivendell decided it was 
necessary to put kickstand plates on their bikes in the first place.  I see 
them as a solution (and a heavier, clunkier-looking, less than elegant 
solution at that) to a problem that doesn't exist.  In the ten years I've 
owned my All 'rounder (including a multi-month tour) I never missed not 
having one.  I can remember being in a position where I couldn't find 
something to lean my bike against and having to rest it down only a very 
few times.  And many of those were on beach sand, where a kickstand 
wouldn't work anyway.  That's just my personal experience, though.  But 
I've never, ever, felt I needed one.

Cheers- Mike in Bklyn, NY

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[M D Smith]

Sorry!!!

but something like an old toe clip works better than a Kickstand:

Should read Flickstand. Stupid auto correct

-Mike

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[WETH]

Drew,
So sorry to learn if your experience.  A cautionary tale for us all.
Matt,
Interestly, after warning against sandwich clamping kickstands, Surly 
recommends a double legged as preferable to single:
We recommend the use of two leg kickstands such as the Pletscher. Such a 
design helps reduce the potential for chainstay flex compared to that which a 
loaded bike leaning on a kickstand single leg can impose. And because of the 
extra leg and the placement, they tend to be the most stable in our experience.
I will check my LHT regularly but for now will leave the pletcsher installed, 
and I will continue to leave my Rivs without a kickstand!
-Erl

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Wayne Naha]

Shawn, have you contacted Riv about this?  What was their response?

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 7:37:58 PM UTC-4, shawn m. wrote:

 I sure wish they'd posted that warning about the double-leggers not using 
 the kickstand plate BEFORE my double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on 
 my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I don't have a kickstand at all...




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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Lungimsam]

1. Perhaps integration is the key.
A bike that has a kickstand built into the frame in such a way that it 
doesn't damage anything to have the kickstand used with or without the bike 
loaded up to 100 lbs.
Since this means tourers, I don't think the consumers would mind a built in 
k-stand since they are planning to load the bike up anyway.
Other, non-touring specific models could just have regular plates for one 
leggers.

2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I 
remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.



 

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[john muhl]

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:02:01 AM UTC-5, Lungimsam wrote:

 2. Freddie Hoffman rides Waterfords with a 100lb load on his bike, if I 
 remember right. I wonder what he does for kickstands.


I've been using a click stand http://www.click-stand.com/ since removing 
the Pletscher and like it.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Lungimsam]

Well if you guys would stop riding off with the two letters open for usual 
effect...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[bertin753]

Actually, I e read that the chai stay bridge doesn't have a structural function.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 16, 2015, at 1:55 PM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote:
 
 Here are my latest thoughts:
 
 We are looking at this wrong.  Although damage could happen from overloading 
 and/or falling over when the kickstand is deployed, I think the real issue is 
 simply the weight of the double-legger itself.  It weighs 25.6 oz, whereas, 
 the single only 9.2 oz.  The double-legger weighs almost three times as much. 
  I think the damage described in this thread is related to the kickstand 
 plate supporting the weight of the double-legger while riding; not while 
 parked and sitting stationary.  And this is why Rivendell is now warning us 
 to use the top support plate.  It takes the burden of supporting the weight 
 while riding off the plate and spreads it across the top of the two 
 chainstays.
 
 Furthermore, the kickstand plate is an integral part of the frame.  If you 
 look at any other bicycle you will see a cross member of some sort in place 
 of a plate.  Theoretically, the plate may be stronger because it is wider but 
 that is beside the point.  Some kind of cross member support is necessary in 
 this location.  If the kickstand plate were to become detached from one of my 
 chainstay's I would consider the frame broken and would not continue to ride 
 until it was fixed.  And, if the kickstand plate was deformed I would think 
 the frame could be considered bent, and if nothing else out of alignment.
 
 These are just my thoughts.  Hopefully Riv will share theirs.
 
 Matt
 
 
 
 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Justin August]

I've never been impressed with the stability of any chain stay/plate 
located kickstands, especially their tendency to have the fixing bolt 
loosen over time. Knowing that it could destroy a frame in some way makes 
me double down on this feeling.

-J

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 5:03:18 PM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:

 Well if you guys would stop riding off with the two letters open for usual 
 effect...

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Here are my latest thoughts:

We are looking at this wrong.  Although damage could happen from 
overloading and/or falling over when the kickstand is deployed, I think the 
real issue is simply the weight of the double-legger itself.  It weighs 
25.6 oz, whereas, the single only 9.2 oz.  The double-legger weighs almost 
three times as much.  I think the damage described in this thread is 
related to the kickstand plate supporting the weight of the double-legger 
while riding; not while parked and sitting stationary.  And this is why 
Rivendell is now warning us to use the top support plate.  It takes the 
burden of supporting the weight while riding off the plate and spreads it 
across the top of the two chainstays.

Furthermore, the kickstand plate is an integral part of the frame.  If you 
look at any other bicycle you will see a cross member of some sort in place 
of a plate.  Theoretically, the plate may be stronger because it is wider 
but that is beside the point.  Some kind of cross member support is 
necessary in this location.  If the kickstand plate were to become detached 
from one of my chainstay's I would consider the frame broken and would not 
continue to ride until it was fixed.  And, if the kickstand plate was 
deformed I would think the frame could be considered bent, and if nothing 
else out of alignment.

These are just my thoughts.  Hopefully Riv will share theirs.

Matt




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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Minh]

Hmm I think it's time to lighten my Sam and take off the kickstand.  

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Here is Surly's position on kickstands for their most robust touring frame:
   
http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/kickstands_on_long_haul_truckers

Kind of interesting,

Matt

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[shawn m.]

I meant to say, also, that it had never fallen over while on the kickstand.

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 8:49:35 PM UTC-7, shawn m. wrote:

 I used a Pletscher double-legger on my Hunqapillar. This bike is my daily 
 rider, commuter, go everywhere bike; touring, camping, all of it. It was 
 mounted directly to the kickstand plate with the shorty bolt I got from 
 Rivendell. After a friend's partner was left permanently disabled by a 
 collapsing front fender, I decided to adjust my fender lines to insure as 
 much clearance as possible. While remounting the rear fender, I noticed 
 that the fender mount that is affixed to the kickstand plate was distorted, 
 leading me to discover that the entire kickstand plate was distorted, 
 bowing down in the middle to an unsettling degree. I unshipped the kick 
 stand and flipped the bike over. The kickstand plate had started to tear 
 away from the chainstays. Pretty distressing. I really liked the utility of 
 the double-legged kickstand, but I would NEVER have bought it and installed 
 it if there had been some warning against doing so. So now I have a damaged 
 frame and no kickstand, which frankly sucks. I tidied up the exposed metal 
 with some clear nail polish pending the imaginary date in the future that I 
 can afford to have the damage repaired and the frame repainted. I ran the 
 double-legger for less than three years. Boo.

 On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate 
 on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they 
 really like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super 
 smooth/flat ground. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[cyclotourist]

Double kicker coming off wife's Glorius in  3... 2...

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 8:53 PM, shawn m. smula...@gmail.com wrote:
 I meant to say, also, that it had never fallen over while on the kickstand.


 On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 8:49:35 PM UTC-7, shawn m. wrote:

 I used a Pletscher double-legger on my Hunqapillar. This bike is my daily
 rider, commuter, go everywhere bike; touring, camping, all of it. It was
 mounted directly to the kickstand plate with the shorty bolt I got from
 Rivendell. After a friend's partner was left permanently disabled by a
 collapsing front fender, I decided to adjust my fender lines to insure as
 much clearance as possible. While remounting the rear fender, I noticed that
 the fender mount that is affixed to the kickstand plate was distorted,
 leading me to discover that the entire kickstand plate was distorted, bowing
 down in the middle to an unsettling degree. I unshipped the kick stand and
 flipped the bike over. The kickstand plate had started to tear away from the
 chainstays. Pretty distressing. I really liked the utility of the
 double-legged kickstand, but I would NEVER have bought it and installed it
 if there had been some warning against doing so. So now I have a damaged
 frame and no kickstand, which frankly sucks. I tidied up the exposed metal
 with some clear nail polish pending the imaginary date in the future that I
 can afford to have the damage repaired and the frame repainted. I ran the
 double-legger for less than three years. Boo.

 On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the
 kickstand's sturdiness.

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site NOTE: Don't bolt these on to Riv
 kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use a
 double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the
 product page with that warning,  HERE , clearly shows it bolted directly to
 the kickstand plate.

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate
 on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they
 really like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super
 smooth/flat ground.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride. - Seth Vidal

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[shawn m.]

I used a Pletscher double-legger on my Hunqapillar. This bike is my daily 
rider, commuter, go everywhere bike; touring, camping, all of it. It was 
mounted directly to the kickstand plate with the shorty bolt I got from 
Rivendell. After a friend's partner was left permanently disabled by a 
collapsing front fender, I decided to adjust my fender lines to insure as 
much clearance as possible. While remounting the rear fender, I noticed 
that the fender mount that is affixed to the kickstand plate was distorted, 
leading me to discover that the entire kickstand plate was distorted, 
bowing down in the middle to an unsettling degree. I unshipped the kick 
stand and flipped the bike over. The kickstand plate had started to tear 
away from the chainstays. Pretty distressing. I really liked the utility of 
the double-legged kickstand, but I would NEVER have bought it and installed 
it if there had been some warning against doing so. So now I have a damaged 
frame and no kickstand, which frankly sucks. I tidied up the exposed metal 
with some clear nail polish pending the imaginary date in the future that I 
can afford to have the damage repaired and the frame repainted. I ran the 
double-legger for less than three years. Boo.

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Here is a Surly LHT with a cracked chainstay right about where a kickstand 
plate on a Rivendell would be mounted.  Granted this bike does have some 
miles and has been on the road a while, but he doesn't use a kickstand and 
judging from his experience I'd say your lucky if all that happens is the 
kickstand plate deforms.  What I've derived from all this is that 
chainstays are subject to a lot more stress than we realize and are subject 
to failure.

https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=tSpage_id=432317v=S

By the way - this is a pretty entertaining blog.  Currently he's in 
Austrailia and it's pretty boring, but if you follow from the beginning 
it's entertaining.  I think so anyway.

Matt


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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[drew]

I suppose my thinking and now disappointment came from the idea that a 
kickstand plate negated crushing or over flexing chainstays. That it solved 
that problem. I agree with patrick, that I don't know what the purpose of a 
kickstand plate is, if you can't put a dbl leg one one it. Presumably the dbl 
leg would apply a more even force than a single leg, right? Less bending? I 
also have to think that this was riv's thinking too, since, despite the 
current/not publicized warning, their pictures still show the stand being 
attached to the plate directly, and the warning is relatively new...I think. 
Mine is still attached directly to the plate, and I'm a little bit afraid to 
flip the bike over to see how it looks. mine has fallen at least a couple 
times. 
Anyway, what's the solution. Is a stand mounted to the chainstays on a weighted 
bike just not a good idea? Is the current plate that is being used not up to 
the task or being attached in an insufficient manner?  Part of me wonders how 
adding the top plate and clamping down on the chainstays while also going thru 
the kickstand plate makes this problem better. Wouldn't that just be over 
stressing a more key area of the bike than just a plate? I'm not sure I want to 
put the kind of force that can snap a welded on steel plate directly onto my 
chainstays. i guess this goes back to surlys stance on the matter

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Steve Palincsar]

I guess we're all going to have to wait until someone from Rivendell 
explains the cautionary note.


On 08/15/2015 12:33 AM, 'hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
I would think a single legger would inflict more twisting than a 
double legger.


On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 6:30:53 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

I'll bet it has to do with twisting forces if and when the bike falls
over with a load.  As Shawn said, I sure wish they'd posted that
warning about the double-leggers not using the kickstand plate
BEFORE my
double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on my hunqapillar! Grr.
Now, I
don't have a kickstand at all...



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Kieran J]

In what way are the plates deforming? Bent or bulged up or something? 
Interested to know more.
Is it a matter of Riv bikes having their plates enhanced to be made more 
resiliant to heavier stresses then? Would a thicker reinforcement be their 
solution to this?

KJ


On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Tom Harrop]

My 68 cm Bombadil didn't like having a two-leg stand attached to the plate. 
It was never that stable, the stand kept coming loose and the plate ended 
up deformed.

On the other hand my better half has one attached to the plate on her 54 cm 
Homer and it's fine (four years, no problems). There is really not much 
difference in bike weight, so maybe the size of the frame could be a 
factor? Or wheel size?

Personally I prefer the rear-chainstay single-leggers to centre-mount two 
leggers. I tried one of the Pletscher ones that mount in the rear triangle 
and it was super stable, but unfortunately my heel hits the mounting 
bracket. I currently have one of the Hebies that attaches via the rear 
wheel QR, it's OK but not great. I am thinking I would like to have an 
attachment plate welded onto the left chainstay for the Pletscher direct 
mount models at some stage.

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[WETH]

Yes, Surly does say not to use one. 

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[john muhl]

My often loaded Atlantis has a deformed kickstand plate due to the 
double-legger but the never loaded with more than a few pounds Betty Foy 
plate is still like new after a couple of years of DL kickstand usage. 
Seems like sound advice they've added to the site; had I been advised 
likewise my Atlantis probably wouldn't have a deformed kickstand plate 
today.

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 9:56:31 AM UTC-5, Tom Harrop wrote:

 My 68 cm Bombadil didn't like having a two-leg stand attached to the 
 plate. It was never that stable, the stand kept coming loose and the plate 
 ended up deformed.

 On the other hand my better half has one attached to the plate on her 54 
 cm Homer and it's fine (four years, no problems). There is really not much 
 difference in bike weight, so maybe the size of the frame could be a 
 factor? Or wheel size?

 Personally I prefer the rear-chainstay single-leggers to centre-mount two 
 leggers. I tried one of the Pletscher ones that mount in the rear triangle 
 and it was super stable, but unfortunately my heel hits the mounting 
 bracket. I currently have one of the Hebies that attaches via the rear 
 wheel QR, it's OK but not great. I am thinking I would like to have an 
 attachment plate welded onto the left chainstay for the Pletscher direct 
 mount models at some stage.


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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Ginz]

I have an unused plestcher double legger if anyone wants to experiment...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Patrick Moore]

Frankly, having tried Pletscher and VO 2-leg stands, as well as the usual
Greenfeld bb stand, I've found left rear dropout stands most effective at
holding up a bike under assymetrical rear loads, even with 20 lb in the
pannier on the stand-side and none on the opposite.

That said, I remember someone on some list pointing to a specialist
center-mount 2-leg stand with much wider legs than those of the Pletscher
and VO stands, that apparently was much more apt to support assymetrical
rear loads -- perhaps someone knows what this is?

That said again, I can't see the point of a kickstand plate that doesn't
support any kind of stand you bolt to it. My Sam Hill was not harmed by the
VO stand I bolted to it, for what that's worth.

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Ginz theg...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have an unused plestcher double legger if anyone wants to experiment...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Kainalu]

I use the top plated double legger on my Hillborne and have been carelessly 
overloading it for 3+ years. No problems ever but I should have a closer look 
(not having examined the chainstays since I installed the kickstand I'm a bit 
nervous to, I'll let you know...)
-Kai

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Tom Harrop]

Patrick, I think you may be referring to the Ursus Jumbo. I tried it, it 
was OK but it kept coming loose. Anyway, I'm with you on the left rear 
dropout stands, as I said—I found it much better particularly when loading 
up a stuffed saddlesack large.

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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Michael Hechmer]

Drew, sorry to read about your problem and your frustration.  I'm not sure 
I can answer your precise question, but We have the two legged 
kickstand on our tandem, which weighs well over 40lbs.  It works fine, 
unless one leg hits land that is much softer than the other.  I haven't 
even bothered to cut it, so my rear wheel sits about 3 off the ground. 
 Our bike doesn't have a plate, so I use the provided top clamp.  After a 
year plus of use the k-stand loosened enough to get out of alignment and 
forced me to track down the noise it was making nicking spokes.  Not good 
but an immediate response minimized any damage.

My wife has a single through the kickplate on her Betty, and that also woks 
fine.  I can't think why the plate wouldn't work with a dbl, other than 
bolt length.  Is there some obstacle to using the upper half of the clamp 
and the plate that's not obvious until you try it?  Or have you lost track 
of the part? Looking at the web pictures suggests that using the top piece 
and going through the braise on should work for you.

Goodluck.

Michael

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 5:44:00 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[drew]

hey steve, 
here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached 
directly to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to do... 
on the same page

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y9vWhHvKBag/Vc55O0WcbvI/Aak/80Y_xm7lifA/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.26%2BPM.png
 
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-03LdaVyO7Tk/Vc5472aalfI/Aac/ZV08-XwJ2qU/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.39%2BPM.png


also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike without 
a kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into the kickstand 
without passing through a bike mounted plate. on This Page 
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k5.htm you can see an expanded version 
of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about how to attach 
the stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the case, you would of 
course need to use the top plate. im just saying, that i dont see a picture 
of the kickstand attached in the way they seem to be saying to attach it, 
and i see a few showing it in the way it seems like they are saying NOT to 
attach it. 


Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much about 
mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have the 
kickstand attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, i was 
more just curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you 
have to still clamp down on the chainstays. i still have the top plate, and 
can do it, it just looks better, and seems better to use the built in 
plate... was my thinking








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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[shawn m.]

I sure wish they'd posted that warning about the double-leggers not using 
the kickstand plate BEFORE my double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on 
my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I don't have a kickstand at all...

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate on 
 top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they really 
 like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super smooth/flat 
 ground. 



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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[ted]

Sounds very vexing, sorry it happened to you. Could you explain in more 
detail what the double-legger did to the kickstand plate on your 
Hunqapillar?

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 4:37:58 PM UTC-7, shawn m. wrote:

 I sure wish they'd posted that warning about the double-leggers not using 
 the kickstand plate BEFORE my double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on 
 my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I don't have a kickstand at all...

 On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 2:44:00 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:

 so, i havent been amazingly satisfied with my pletscher dbl leg stand. it 
 just doesnt seem that stable with a load and it tends to make creaking 
 noises that are not reassuring.  i was at a bike shop a few months ago, and 
 saw the same kickstand with a sticker that said 30lb weight limit (it was 
 in kg, but i did the math). i asked the bike shop guy and he seemed to have 
 no idea if that was a legitimate statement, and i can find no weight limit 
 listed anywhere online. its possible that that tainted my view of the 
 kickstand's sturdiness. 

 back to real time. i was gonna another black version, since i at least 
 know what im getting with the pletscher, and the others are mysterious to 
 me. and i read this on the rivendell site *NOTE: Don't bolt these on to 
 Riv kickstand plates, those are for single leggers only. If you want to use 
 a double, use the sandwich and run the bolt through the plate.***

 now, i dont really know what that means. does it mean that you are still 
 supposed to use the top plate even with a kickstand plate? that would seem 
 to defeat the purpose of a kickstand plate, since the top part cant fit 
 between the chainstays and would therefore have to go on top.  also, the 
 product page with that warning,  HERE 
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k21.htm , clearly shows it bolted 
 directly to the kickstand plate. 

 anyway, maybe im misreading it. maybe you are supposed to put the plate 
 on top and run a really long bolt through pletscher plateairkickstand 
 platekickstand? seems weird to me.

 more to the point, is anyone using a double leg kickstand that they 
 really like for touring with loads and standing up on not always super 
 smooth/flat ground. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Steve Palincsar]

The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand. Evidently 
experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged 
kickstand.   Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm 
using a built-in plate with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R 
Porteur -- but I don't use it in such a way as to over-stress the 
plate.  We've seen at least one testimonial (from Shawn) about what can 
happen when you do that and it all goes pear-shaped.


The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do it, 
even though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way it 
seems sensible to you and take your chances.  Or, as someone in a movie 
once put it, You've got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I feel 
lucky?'  Well, do ya?


On 08/14/2015 07:42 PM, drew wrote:

hey steve,
here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached 
directly to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to 
do... on the same page


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y9vWhHvKBag/Vc55O0WcbvI/Aak/80Y_xm7lifA/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.26%2BPM.pnghttps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-03LdaVyO7Tk/Vc5472aalfI/Aac/ZV08-XwJ2qU/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.39%2BPM.png


also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike 
without a kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into 
the kickstand without passing through a bike mounted plate. on This 
Page http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k5.htm you can see an expanded 
version of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about 
how to attach the stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the 
case, you would of course need to use the top plate. im just saying, 
that i dont see a picture of the kickstand attached in the way they 
seem to be saying to attach it, and i see a few showing it in the way 
it seems like they are saying NOT to attach it.



Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much 
about mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have 
the kickstand attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, 
i was more just curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate 
is, if you have to still clamp down on the chainstays. i still have 
the top plate, and can do it, it just looks better, and seems better 
to use the built in plate... was my thinking





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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Patrick Moore]

If a kickstand plate won't support a 2-leg kickstand, it is badly designed.
I installed a VO 2-leg stand on my briefly owned Sam Hill, and saw no
problem or intimation of a problem; have others used 2-legs on Sam Hills?

On Fri, Aug 14, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:

 The purpose of a kickstand plate is to support a kickstand.  Evidently
 experience has shown them that it won't properly support a 2-legged
 kickstand.   Using the built-in plate is fine -- I'm pretty sure I'm using
 a built-in plate with a 2-legged kick stand on my Kogswell P/R Porteur --
 but I don't use it in such a way as to over-stress the plate.  We've seen
 at least one testimonial (from Shawn) about what can happen when you do
 that and it all goes pear-shaped.

 The way I see it, you have two choices: do it the way they say to do it,
 even though it doesn't seem to make much sense; or, do it the way it seems
 sensible to you and take your chances.  Or, as someone in a movie once put
 it, You've got to ask yourself one question, 'Do I feel lucky?'  Well, do
 ya?

 On 08/14/2015 07:42 PM, drew wrote:

 hey steve,
 here are the photos i was referencing that show the kickstand attached
 directly to the plate, which is what it seems they are saying not to do...
 on the same page


 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-y9vWhHvKBag/Vc55O0WcbvI/Aak/80Y_xm7lifA/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.26%2BPM.png
 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-03LdaVyO7Tk/Vc5472aalfI/Aac/ZV08-XwJ2qU/s1600/Screen%2BShot%2B2015-08-14%2Bat%2B4.24.39%2BPM.png


 also, i think the photo you put in with the top plate is on a bike without
 a kickstand plate (you can see the bolt going directly into the kickstand
 without passing through a bike mounted plate. on This Page
 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/k5.htm you can see an expanded version
 of the photo you included, and it is under a paragraph about how to attach
 the stand to a bike without a plate), and if that is the case, you would of
 course need to use the top plate. im just saying, that i dont see a picture
 of the kickstand attached in the way they seem to be saying to attach it,
 and i see a few showing it in the way it seems like they are saying NOT to
 attach it.


 Michael, glad to hear yours is working. im probably thinking too much
 about mine, and itll probably not cause any issues. currently i have the
 kickstand attached like the above photos. since i was on the site, i was
 more just curious about what the purpose of a kickstand plate is, if you
 have to still clamp down on the chainstays. i still have the top plate, and
 can do it, it just looks better, and seems better to use the built in
 plate... was my thinking


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[RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Last time I checked Surly's website they specifically said NOT to use 
kickstands on their chainstays.

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 6:35:58 PM UTC-7, WETH wrote:

 Drew, 
 I use one on my Surly LHT with sandwich-no kickstand plate on an LHT.  It 
 has supported a good 50lbs of weight with no problems while the bike was 
 fully loaded on tour.  I do hear it creak on occasion when used with a 
 heavy load.  My only other complaints are front wheel flop and issues of 
 uneven terrain as Michael mentioned.  All in all it works better for me 
 than a traditional kickstand when the bike is fully loaded. 
 Best wishes, 
 Erl

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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

['hangtownmatt' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I would think a single legger would inflict more twisting than a double 
legger.

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 6:30:53 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 I'll bet it has to do with twisting forces if and when the bike falls 
 over with a load.  As Shawn said, I sure wish they'd posted that 
 warning about the double-leggers not using the kickstand plate BEFORE my 
 double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I 
 don't have a kickstand at all... 

 On 08/14/2015 07:14 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote: 
  I can't think why the plate wouldn't work with a dbl, other than bolt 
  length. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Double leg Kickstands... lets talk

[Steve Palincsar]

I'll bet it has to do with twisting forces if and when the bike falls 
over with a load.  As Shawn said, I sure wish they'd posted that 
warning about the double-leggers not using the kickstand plate BEFORE my 
double-legger ruined the kickstand plate on my hunqapillar! Grr. Now, I 
don't have a kickstand at all...


On 08/14/2015 07:14 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:
I can't think why the plate wouldn't work with a dbl, other than bolt 
length. 


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