Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Ray_Net]

Bill Davidsen wrote:

Jay Garcia wrote:

On 07.04.2010 11:32, Bill Davidsen wrote:

--- Original Message ---


I have put a few examples up at

 >> http://www/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/


Care to try again, that link is invalid.


Wow, something in the posting process stripped the domain! WTH??
http://www.tmr.com/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/
I put it on its own line, but never saw that before.



Here, you can find a pure text mail (no html) with an attached file 
prooving that there is not a separate sending for the attached file.

 http://home.scarlet.be/~pin10521/non-html-mail-with-picture.txt

"images are generally binary files that traverse the Internet as
distinct packets not embedded in the source" is a false assumption.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

Jay Garcia wrote:

On 07.04.2010 11:32, Bill Davidsen wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

I have put a few examples up at 

>> http://www/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/


Care to try again, that link is invalid.


Wow, something in the posting process stripped the domain! WTH??
  http://www.tmr.com/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/
I put it on its own line, but never saw that before.

--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Jay Garcia]

On 07.04.2010 11:32, Bill Davidsen wrote:

 --- Original Message ---

> I have put a few examples up at http://www/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/

Care to try again, that link is invalid.

-- 
Jay Garcia - Netscape/Flock Champion
www.ufaq.org
Netscape - Flock - Firefox - Thunderbird - Seamonkey Support
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

Ray_Net wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:


Some think that images in HTML-formatted E-mail messages are somehow
embedded within the source of the message, that they are in-line.
Instead, images are generally binary files that traverse the Internet as
distinct packets not embedded in the source.  At least that's how
HTML-formatted messages reach my ISP's mail server.

I have tested, and the "attached" file is embedded in the text of a 
text-format mail. I was unable to copy/paste the mail here - it looks 
like the post is sent from my pc, but never arrive in 
mozilla.support.seamonkey


I have put a few examples up at http://www/~davidsen/Private/HTMLmail/
for clarity. The small one is a reasonable short note, even with use of a few 
fonts for highlighting and rendering the mailing address in the sig as a mailto: 
link, the size is only a few hundred bytes larger than pure text. I had another, 
but lost it, using one indented paragraph in fixed with text (script would stand out. That only added another hundred bytes or so, and made it 
much easier to read. I had to delete it, there was some client info in the 
script, sorry.


The medium size has a quite fancy signature with a cartoon, and a bit of fonts 
and such, it's 12k and I only have that sig for a demo, not as a normal thing.


The last has an embedded image, and it is larger, but can be viewed by someone 
who is behind a firewall which limits http access. It's large because the sender 
made it that way, not because it's HTML, and it does have an advantage of being 
viewable if you download and read offline. I send out a newsletter to ~200 
people, and based on complaints I think about 8-10% do download and read later 
offline. People who pay by the connect minute, I'm told. Pay by the byte is not 
the only pay-as-you-go billing option.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Ray_Net]

David E. Ross wrote:


Some think that images in HTML-formatted E-mail messages are somehow
embedded within the source of the message, that they are in-line.
Instead, images are generally binary files that traverse the Internet as
distinct packets not embedded in the source.  At least that's how
HTML-formatted messages reach my ISP's mail server.

I have tested, and the "attached" file is embedded in the text of a 
text-format mail. I was unable to copy/paste the mail here - it looks 
like the post is sent from my pc, but never arrive in 
mozilla.support.seamonkey

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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 4/5/10 8:24 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
> 
>> You might think that images in an HTML-formatted message traverse the
>> Internet embedded within the message.  Actually, images travel
>> separately, as attachments.  Similarly, there is a separate transfer of
>> a file for each image in a Web page.
>>
> I have no idea what you mean by "separately, as attachments" since 
> attachments 
> are part of the message, not in any way separate. Looking at any HTML message 
> with Cntl-U will show you that. That's one of the advantages of HTML mail, 
> it's 
> a package rather than needing a transfer for each image. In an attempt to 
> "speed 
> up" browsers, some load images in parallel, which can result in lots of 
> connects 
> to the web server, and may perceived as a DoS attack.
> 

Some think that images in HTML-formatted E-mail messages are somehow
embedded within the source of the message, that they are in-line.
Instead, images are generally binary files that traverse the Internet as
distinct packets not embedded in the source.  At least that's how
HTML-formatted messages reach my ISP's mail server.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

David E. Ross wrote:


You might think that images in an HTML-formatted message traverse the
Internet embedded within the message.  Actually, images travel
separately, as attachments.  Similarly, there is a separate transfer of
a file for each image in a Web page.

I have no idea what you mean by "separately, as attachments" since attachments 
are part of the message, not in any way separate. Looking at any HTML message 
with Cntl-U will show you that. That's one of the advantages of HTML mail, it's 
a package rather than needing a transfer for each image. In an attempt to "speed 
up" browsers, some load images in parallel, which can result in lots of connects 
to the web server, and may perceived as a DoS attack.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Daniel wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Daniel wrote:


Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too, so
is there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??


Do extraneou's apo'strophe's in'serted into plural's count a's bloat?



Now! Now! One apostrophe (extraneous or not) is no great crime, is it??


Certainly not. But it wa's fun, wasn't it?

--
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--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Chris Ilias]

On 10-03-31 11:22 AM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

http://tekrider.net/general/checker.php#grocer   ;-)


I noticed you left out an item in your list on the site referring to
Soul| Sole you have listed Sole is a Flatfish) there is also the *sole*
of your shoe(s) as well.


You are the soul person to mention that!  :-)  I think I picked the
'flatfish' because it is so less a common usage than the shoe part.


I'll admit to no [sic] being a good proofreader. I can proofread a
document 3-4 times and not see the error until it [ ] posted or
written. In my mind's eye I see what I intended, even if its [sic]
not.


It happens to the best of us. I do see you could make use one of those
extra apostrophes, though.


Guys, this discussion is OT. Please take it somewhere else.

--
Chris Ilias 
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird, test-multimedia
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Phillip Jones wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> http://tekrider.net/general/checker.php#grocer   ;-)
> 
> I noticed you left out an item in your list on the site referring to 
> Soul| Sole you have listed Sole is a Flatfish) there is also the *sole* 
> of your shoe(s) as well.

You are the soul person to mention that!  :-)  I think I picked the
'flatfish' because it is so less a common usage than the shoe part.

> I'll admit to no [sic] being a good proofreader. I can proofread a
> document 3-4 times and not see the error until it [ ] posted or
> written. In my mind's eye I see what I intended, even if its [sic]
> not.

It happens to the best of us. I do see you could make use one of those
extra apostrophes, though.  

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the sole
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Daniel wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too,
so is there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??


Do extraneou's apo'strophe's in'serted into plural's count a's
bloat?


Now! Now! One apostrophe (extraneous or not) is no great crime, is
it??


Isn't it worth the life of one apostrophe?  And if you add up all the
extraneou's apo'strophe's posted each and every day, you have used up
the bandwidth for the entire works of Shakespeare! Every day!

http://tekrider.net/general/checker.php#grocer   ;-)



I noticed you left out an item in your list on the site referring to 
Soul| Sole you have listed Sole is a Flatfish) there is also the *sole* 
of your shoe(s) as well.


I'll admit to no being a good proofreader. I can proofread a document 
3-4 times and not see the error until it posted or written. In my mind's 
eye I see what I intended, even if its not.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Daniel wrote:

> Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>> Daniel wrote:
>>> Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too,
>>> so is there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??
>> 
>> Do extraneou's apo'strophe's in'serted into plural's count a's
>> bloat?
> 
> Now! Now! One apostrophe (extraneous or not) is no great crime, is
> it??

Isn't it worth the life of one apostrophe?  And if you add up all the
extraneou's apo'strophe's posted each and every day, you have used up
the bandwidth for the entire works of Shakespeare! Every day!

http://tekrider.net/general/checker.php#grocer   ;-)

-- 
   -bts
   -Feral apostrophes are contagious; take your medication
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Daniel wrote:


Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too, so
is there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??


Do extraneou's apo'strophe's in'serted into plural's count a's bloat?



Now! Now! One apostrophe (extraneous or not) is no great crime, is it??

Daniel
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Daniel wrote:

Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too, so is 
there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??


Do extraneou's apo'strophe's in'serted into plural's count a's bloat?

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Terry R. wrote:

On 3/28/2010 6:17 PM On a whim, Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounded out on
the keyboard


Terry R. wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:





and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit. Maybe if the
email was sent as PT&  HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
the error count either.


Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.



Couldn't agree more.

Terry R.


In DreamWeaver they is even a menu item for "Fix Word HTML" :-)



Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too, so is
there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??

Daniel
Well  except for some items I deliberately added (audio and Flash 
Content) my website validates with validator On most pages there are 
zero errors


You have choice of methods Code (you write your own code WYSIWYG where 
you type in what you want format similar to using a word processor or 
page layout program) or mixed where it uses a Split Screen the WYSIWYG 
on top and code view on bottom.


That old saw has been around since Macromedia Days. When Macromedia was 
basically made fun of.


You can check out for yourself http://phillipmjones.net . You may not 
like my taste in Backgrounds or subject matters. I have written in XHTML 
1.0 Transitional and according to the W3C Validator most pages show as 
have zero warning and zero errors


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Terry R. wrote:

On 3/28/2010 6:17 PM On a whim, Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounded out on
the keyboard


Terry R. wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:





and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit. Maybe if the
email was sent as PT& HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
the error count either.


Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.



Couldn't agree more.

Terry R.


In DreamWeaver they is even a menu item for "Fix Word HTML" :-)



Many moon's ago, I heard that Dreamweaver produced poor HTML, too, so is 
there a menu item for "Fix Dreamweaver HTML"??


Daniel
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Terry R. wrote:

On 3/28/2010 6:17 PM On a whim, Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounded out on
the keyboard


Terry R. wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:

I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.

You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
via yahoogroups.
[snip code]

The 302 lines of *styling* were in a secondsection after all
the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
by the sender.

I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
offhand.


Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.



I just searched my AB.  One Yahoo user.


But I was responding directly to David's comment of,

"If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.
And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors."


Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
(357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.

Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.


and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
email was sent as PT&   HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
the error count either.


Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.



Couldn't agree more.

Terry R.


In DreamWeaver they is even a menu item for "Fix Word HTML" :-)

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/29/10 10:37 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
>> On 3/28/10 5:17 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> Terry R. wrote:
>>>
 Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> Terry R. wrote:
>> I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
>> extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
>> 10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.
> You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
> email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
> users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
> Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
> via yahoogroups.
> [snip code]
>
> The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all
> the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
> the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
> by the sender. 
 I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
 offhand. 
>>> Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.
>>>
 But I was responding directly to David's comment of, 

 "If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
 HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB. 
 And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors." 
>>> Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
>>> be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
>>> (357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.
>>>
>>> Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.
>>>
 and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
 email was sent as PT & HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
 the error count either.
>>> Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.
>>>
>>
>> I was replying to Bill Davidson, who wrote about
>>> Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. 
>>
>> If messages actually got that size, the equivalent message in HTML
>> formatting would be about 4.6 times that.  This is based on my
>> examination of 20 actual HTML-formatted messages that I collected from
>> my inbox earlier this year.  As it happens, my wife has a friend who
>> regularly sends HTML-formatted messages in the 600 KB to 1.5 MB range (a
>> very few at large as 4 MB).  My wife ignores them, leaving them on our
>> ISP's mail server until I use a Web-mail capability to delete them.
>>
> I suspect those messages include embedded graphics and the like. Do you think 
> those images would be smaller if they were attached to text as just mime 
> attachments?
> 
> Getting a multi-MB message isn't a problem with HTML, it's a problem with 
> clueless friends.
> 

I you would read my ,
which I cited earlier in this thread, you would see under "Methodology"
the following:
"I excluded any attachments (which, for HTML-formatted messages, means
excluding any images or background), links to attachments, the section
for marking a message as spam (added by my ISP's mail server), and the
header section of each message."

The sizes from which I computed bloat DID NOT INCLUDE IMAGES.  For the
actual HTML-formatted messages, I copied the message source from just
after the  tag to just before the  tag and pasted the
result into a new file; I then considered the size of the resulting
file.  For the equivalent ASCII-formatted messages, I copied the body of
a displayed HTML-formatted message from my E-mail client and pasted the
result into a new file; I then considered the size of the resulting
file.  The sizes for each of the 20 messages -- both HTML and ASCII --
are shown in a table at the end of my cited Web page.

You might think that images in an HTML-formatted message traverse the
Internet embedded within the message.  Actually, images travel
separately, as attachments.  Similarly, there is a separate transfer of
a file for each image in a Web page.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

David E. Ross wrote:

On 3/28/10 5:17 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:

I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.

You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
via yahoogroups.
[snip code]

The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all
the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
by the sender. 

I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
offhand. 

Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.

But I was responding directly to David's comment of, 


"If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB. 
And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors." 

Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
(357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.

Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.


and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
email was sent as PT & HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
the error count either.

Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.



I was replying to Bill Davidson, who wrote about
Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. 


If messages actually got that size, the equivalent message in HTML
formatting would be about 4.6 times that.  This is based on my
examination of 20 actual HTML-formatted messages that I collected from
my inbox earlier this year.  As it happens, my wife has a friend who
regularly sends HTML-formatted messages in the 600 KB to 1.5 MB range (a
very few at large as 4 MB).  My wife ignores them, leaving them on our
ISP's mail server until I use a Web-mail capability to delete them.

I suspect those messages include embedded graphics and the like. Do you think 
those images would be smaller if they were attached to text as just mime 
attachments?


Getting a multi-MB message isn't a problem with HTML, it's a problem with 
clueless friends.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Terry R.]

On 3/28/2010 6:17 PM On a whim, Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounded out on 
the keyboard



Terry R. wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Terry R. wrote:

I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.

You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
via yahoogroups.
[snip code]

The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second   section after all
the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
by the sender.

I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
offhand.


Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.



I just searched my AB.  One Yahoo user.


But I was responding directly to David's comment of,

"If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.
And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors."


Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
(357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.

Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.


and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
email was sent as PT&  HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
the error count either.


Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.



Couldn't agree more.

Terry R.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/28/10 5:17 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> Terry R. wrote:
> 
>> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> Terry R. wrote:
 I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
 extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
 10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.
>>>
>>> You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
>>> email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
>>> users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
>>> Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
>>> via yahoogroups.
>>> [snip code]
>>>
>>> The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all
>>> the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
>>> the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
>>> by the sender. 
>>
>> I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
>> offhand. 
> 
> Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.
> 
>> But I was responding directly to David's comment of, 
>>
>> "If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
>> HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB. 
>> And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors." 
> 
> Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
> be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
> (357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.
> 
> Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.
> 
>> and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
>> email was sent as PT & HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
>> the error count either.
> 
> Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.
> 

I was replying to Bill Davidson, who wrote about
> Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. 

If messages actually got that size, the equivalent message in HTML
formatting would be about 4.6 times that.  This is based on my
examination of 20 actual HTML-formatted messages that I collected from
my inbox earlier this year.  As it happens, my wife has a friend who
regularly sends HTML-formatted messages in the 600 KB to 1.5 MB range (a
very few at large as 4 MB).  My wife ignores them, leaving them on our
ISP's mail server until I use a Web-mail capability to delete them.

I was able to identify one of those 20 messages as coming from Yahoo
mail.  It was NOT from my son, who uses Yahoo mail exclusively.

Among the 20 messages I collected, both the largest message and the
message with the largest bloat factor were all HTML.  None of the bloat
can be attributed to there being an ASCII part to those messages.

-- 
David E. Ross


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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Terry R. wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> Terry R. wrote:
>>> I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how
>>> extreme the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than
>>> 10%-20% of it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.
>> 
>> You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
>> email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail
>> users? A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually.
>> Here's a small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday
>> via yahoogroups.
>> [snip code]
>>
>> The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all
>> the HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just
>> the four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied
>> by the sender. 
> 
> I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it
> offhand. 

Really?  I'd say about 20-25% of the mail I get comes from yahoo.

> But I was responding directly to David's comment of, 
> 
> "If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an
> HTML-formatted message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB. 
> And it would likely have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors." 

Heh, I'm sure that was a misuse of MB .. where he meant KB (which would
be about right, a typical 4 to 1 ratio. The email I cited has 67 words
(357 bytes), and from Yahoo needed 13 Kilobytes of HTML.

Or he may just have been exaggerating for fun.

> and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the
> email was sent as PT & HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not
> the error count either.

Ewww. Word, as the editor for OE, does a *terrible* job of HTML.

-- 
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   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Terry R.]

On 3/28/2010 9:49 AM On a whim, Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounded out on 
the keyboard



Terry R. wrote:


I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how extreme
the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than 10%-20% of
it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.


You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail users?
A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually. Here's a
small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday via
yahoogroups.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>




 



   


 

   Hello All,

...

The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all the
HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just the
four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied by the
sender.



I can't speak for Yahoo mail, and I don't know anyone that uses it offhand.

But I was responding directly to David's comment of,

"If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an HTML-formatted
message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.  And it would likely
have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors."

and I believe he overstated the numbers quite a bit.  Maybe if the email 
was sent as PT & HTML using Word, but not just HTML, and not the error 
count either.



Terry R.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Terry R. wrote:

> I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how extreme
> the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than 10%-20% of
> it's plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.

You might be able to do that, Terry, (and so could I) but most HTML
email clients sure can't.  Do you get email from, say, yahoo mail users?
A one or two sentence message runs around 13-16KB usually. Here's a
small snippet from a four-sentence message I got yesterday via
yahoogroups.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>




 



  




  Hello All,

...

The 302 lines of *styling* were in a second  section after all the
HTML and content!  Oh, and viewing the email in HTML, it is just the
four lines in the Georgia font. No other formatting was applied by the
sender.

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/28/10 6:50 AM, Terry R. wrote:
> On 3/27/2010 10:31 PM On a whim, David E. Ross pounded out on the keyboard
> 
>> On 3/27/10 4:05 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote [in part]:
>>> Daniel wrote [also in part]:
>>>
 And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
 less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
 server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
 my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm
 still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

>>> Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. Big data is big data, and if you have 
>>> people
>>> sending you stuff like that you might be well served to go to gmail, and 
>>> use a
>>> reader which lets you choose not to download text of any message over a 
>>> certain
>>> size unless initiated manually. gmail supports IMAP as well as the web 
>>> interface.
>>>
>>
>> If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an HTML-formatted
>> message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.  And it would likely
>> have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors.
>>
> 
> It wouldn't have to be that large at all.  That is typical HTML-phobe 
> speak.  Of course if you're talking about Word HTML composition, then 
> you would be correct, except for the excessive errors you state.
> 
> I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how extreme 
> the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than 10%-20% of it's 
> plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.
> 
> So who do you believe?
> 
> 
> Terry R.

I believe the sample of 20 actual HTML-formatted messages -- from 20
different senders -- that I received the beginning of this year.  See my
.

Yes, if you hand-code your HTML, you can make your messages error-free
and quite compact.  That's exactly how I create my Web pages.  But if
you use an E-mail application to create HTML, the results can be quite
different.  Even if SeaMOnkey using Composer produces error-free HTML,
it still won't be as efficient -- as free of bloat -- as hand-coded HTML.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Terry R.]

On 3/27/2010 10:31 PM On a whim, David E. Ross pounded out on the keyboard


On 3/27/10 4:05 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote [in part]:

Daniel wrote [also in part]:


And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)


Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. Big data is big data, and if you have people
sending you stuff like that you might be well served to go to gmail, and use a
reader which lets you choose not to download text of any message over a certain
size unless initiated manually. gmail supports IMAP as well as the web 
interface.



If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an HTML-formatted
message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.  And it would likely
have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors.



It wouldn't have to be that large at all.  That is typical HTML-phobe 
speak.  Of course if you're talking about Word HTML composition, then 
you would be correct, except for the excessive errors you state.


I can compose an HTML document (and of course depending on how extreme 
the formatting is), and the size won't be much more than 10%-20% of it's 
plain text counterpart.  And zero errors.


So who do you believe?


Terry R.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/27/10 4:05 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote [in part]:
> Daniel wrote [also in part]:
> 
>> And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or 
>> less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's 
>> server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded 
>> my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm 
>> still trying to educate my family members as well!!)
>>
> Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. Big data is big data, and if you have 
> people 
> sending you stuff like that you might be well served to go to gmail, and use 
> a 
> reader which lets you choose not to download text of any message over a 
> certain 
> size unless initiated manually. gmail supports IMAP as well as the web 
> interface.
> 

If a 1 MB plain-text message were instead composed as an HTML-formatted
message, the result would be approximately 4.6 MB.  And it would likely
have approximately 21,000 HTML syntax errors.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

JeffM wrote:

MCBastos wrote:

Bold or italics to make meaning clear,


As Ross mentions in his page,
too often people think tricks are a substitue for clearly-written
prose.


links with the URL and display text separate for clarity.


People who still click links in email deserve what they get.
(Phished.)

Bill Davidsen wrote:

people can diddle the display width
before printing the message, too.


If you want something to print properly every time,
HTML is *not* the proper format to use.
Portable Document Format (PDF) gives a 100% solution here
--no diddling necessary.


there are clear benefits to HTML


Not in email.  Way too many variables.

If what you want is that
everyone sees your stuff with the *same* layout,
make the last step in your creation process **Save as PDF**.


For mail you don't want them to see the same layout, you want them to be able to 
read your message and be able to understand it. Locking in the format with 
something like PDF prevents that, a message which looks fine on and old 1024x768 
screen is a little column down the side of a newer 16:9 monitor, and requires 
horizontal scrolling on phones, blackberries, and tablets in the vertical mode.


For most people the object is to communicate, not present the material in the 
form the sender prefers, but to let the reader adjust it (usually automatically) 
to the screen size and aspect ratio. And things like lists are at least 
recognizable as such in HTML.


In anything over a screen or two long, use of links to jump to sections saves 
the reader time, meaning they are more likely to actually look at some 
clarifying out of line text if they need to and can just click, read, and go 
back. Information you don't deliver is an invitation to problems later on.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's 
idea.


People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter, please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects 
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines 
and punched tape readers as well!)


When I headed a server group for Prodigy we had a about a million people of 
dial-up, I'm highly aware of speeds. I remember the huge jump from 110 to 300 
baud in the 70s. But a message is not smaller on a web page than it is in mail, 
just less private and harder for the recipient to read.


And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or 
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's 
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded 
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm 
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)


Doesn't stop 1MB plain text either. Big data is big data, and if you have people 
sending you stuff like that you might be well served to go to gmail, and use a 
reader which lets you choose not to download text of any message over a certain 
size unless initiated manually. gmail supports IMAP as well as the web interface.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more,
and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters
either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on
everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and
write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one
else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post
the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding
when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the
poster's
idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email
over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's
simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter,
please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has
moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the
cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive
quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so
expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud
machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my
ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've
exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you,
I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time
and a
50mb per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box
size it much larger.

HTML Mail without attachments and no embedded pictures or music
doesn't
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently
because
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she
had
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.



Lucky you, Phillip, but do you live in a bigish city/town or out in the
sticks??

Daniel

So far in the sticks they have to pipe sunshine periodical.



Oh, well! There I go, I have always taken you (and most here) as big
city slickers with prime time services!

Daniel


1 mb DSL is not prime time service. with Cable modems upwards of 15-20
or more mb per second.

Even though mine is Classified as DSL it actual Name is DSL over Copper
which is is a code word for the system that predates DSL that was only
slightly better than POTS where they took two lines and used I what is
called bonded pairs. Its been so long a go I forgot what it was called.
But the new euphemism for it is DSL over copper. I pay a heavy price for
it. But my ISP provides up to 5 mailboxes unlimited time 50 mb per
mailbox, and provides the phone line. If the phone line dies, then its
on their nickel and they provide the Modem and Router.

And My ISP doesn't provide a news server though I have to subscribe to
my own Newsgroups. Sprint who was the carrier at the time deep sixed
there USENET Server.

The local cable company might be cheaper for one mailbox. but then they
charge you 10 bucks rent for Modem and 10 for Router and each mailbox is
5 bucks more so I'd end up about the same price as now. and in our area
cable is only marginally better than what I have now. Plus every time
there is a big snow storm or a thunderstorm, the cable goes out hours or
days at a time. Since I've been with my ISP about 10 years, they been
out of service 7 times. 3 times altogether for a day. 4 times where long
distance was slowed own because of cuts in phone lines in other parts of
the state.

But know I am definitely not in a big city. in fact our area
Martinsville/Henry county is so economically depressed we have about
22-25% unemployment. About as bad or worse than Appalachia.

I could afford

Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters
either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on
everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and
write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding
when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's
idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email
over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's
simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter,
please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you,
I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time and a
50mb per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box
size it much larger.

HTML Mail without attachments and no embedded pictures or music doesn't
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently because
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she had
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.



Lucky you, Phillip, but do you live in a bigish city/town or out in the
sticks??

Daniel

So far in the sticks they have to pipe sunshine periodical.



Oh, well! There I go, I have always taken you (and most here) as big
city slickers with prime time services!

Daniel


1 mb DSL is not prime time service. with Cable modems upwards of 15-20 
or more mb per second.


Even though mine is Classified as DSL it actual Name is DSL over Copper 
which is is a code word for the system that predates DSL that was only 
slightly better than POTS where they took two lines and used I what is 
called bonded pairs. Its been so long a go I forgot what it was called. 
But the new euphemism for it is DSL over copper. I pay a heavy price for 
it. But my ISP provides  up to 5 mailboxes unlimited time 50 mb per 
mailbox, and provides the phone line. If the phone line dies, then its 
on their nickel and they provide the Modem and Router.


And My ISP doesn't provide a news server though I have to subscribe to 
my own Newsgroups. Sprint who was the carrier at the time deep sixed 
there USENET Server.


The local cable company might be cheaper for one mailbox. but then they 
charge you 10 bucks rent for Modem and 10 for Router and each mailbox is 
5 bucks more so I'd end up about the same price as now. and in our area 
cable is only marginally better than what I have now.  Plus every time 
there is a big snow storm or a thunderstorm, the cable goes out hours or 
days at a time. Since I've been with my ISP about 10 years, they been 
out of service 7 times. 3 times altogether for a day. 4 times where long 
distance was slowed own because of cuts in phone lines in other parts of 
the state.


But know I am definitely not in a big city. in fact our area 
Martinsville/Henry county is so economically depressed we have about 
22-25% unemployment. About as bad or worse than Appalachia.


I could a

Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters
either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on
everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and
write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding
when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's
idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email
over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's
simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter,
please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you,
I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time and a
50mb per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box
size it much larger.

HTML Mail without attachments and no embedded pictures or music doesn't
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently because
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she had
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.



Lucky you, Phillip, but do you live in a bigish city/town or out in the
sticks??

Daniel

So far in the sticks they have to pipe sunshine periodical.



Oh, well! There I go, I have always taken you (and most here) as big 
city slickers with prime time services!


Daniel
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Leonidas Jones wrote:

> I think Beau's reference was to the fact that if you are going to use a
> standalone newsreader, it might make more sense to use one designed for
> the purpose.

You are right, Lee!  

> I dabbled with Xnews a bit on Windows, and it seemed to work pretty well.
> I really like the convenience of an all in one email/newsgroup/rss client,
> but if I were to select an application just for newsgroups, I would
> probably look for something more fully featured for that.

If you look at my headers, you'll see (or David will see) that I normally
use 40tude Dialog for news. It's a great newsreader, runs circles around
Thunderbird. I run it in Wine; it's the only Windows program on my
computer.

This one, you see, is posted from Pan (my second choice).

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul

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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Leonidas Jones]

David E. Ross wrote:

On 3/25/10 5:57 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:


I'm not using a Mozilla-based E-mail client.  I use Thunderbird only
as a news reader.


Isn't that backwards?



No.  My ancient Eudora Lite 3.0.6 still has features that I don't find
in Thunderbird.



I think Beau's reference was to the fact that if you are going to use a 
standalone newsreader, it might make more sense to use one designed for 
the purpose.


I dabbled with Xnews a bit on Windows, and it seemed to work pretty 
well. I really like the convenience of an all in one email/newsgroup/rss 
client, but if I were to select an application just for newsgroups, I 
would probably look for something more fully featured for that.


Lee
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/25/10 5:57 PM, Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
> 
>> I'm not using a Mozilla-based E-mail client.  I use Thunderbird only
>> as a news reader.
> 
> Isn't that backwards?   
> 

No.  My ancient Eudora Lite 3.0.6 still has features that I don't find
in Thunderbird.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

David E. Ross wrote:

> I'm not using a Mozilla-based E-mail client.  I use Thunderbird only
> as a news reader.

Isn't that backwards?   

-- 
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   -Could. Not. Resist.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/24/10 7:55 PM, MCBastos wrote:
> Interviewed by CNN on 22/3/2010 03:35, David E. Ross told the world:
>> On 3/20/10 7:09 AM, John Klein wrote:
>>> I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
>>> create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
>>> owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
>>> code, no style sheets  or templates.
>>>  
>>> Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could
>>> someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.
>>
>> Please read my .  Then
>> convey to your clients the information under both "Findings" and
>> "Conclusions".
>>
>> While some individuals prefer HTML-formatted E-mail, others don't.  See
>> my  to see why the
>> latter can be quite militant about opposing HTML-formatted E-mail.
>>
>> Finally, if the messages are actually newsletters, see my
>>  regarding why
>> newsletters are best published as Web pages with brief E-mail messages
>> merely announcing -- and containing links to -- new editions of the
>> newsletters.
>>
> 
> 
> David, I noticed that in your e-mail samples you couldn't determine the
> sender's user-agent in more than half the messages. You might try
> installing the "Display Mail User Agent" extension -- it is quite good
> in figuring out the MUA from obscure telltales, even if there's no
> explicit user-agent string. That way, you could find a bit more about
> the senders -- I notice that both the most error-prone and the most
> error-free mail clients went unidentified, for instance.
> 

I'm not using a Mozilla-based E-mail client.  I use Thunderbird only as
a news reader.  Thus, the extension cannot be added to my E-mail client.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 22/3/2010 03:35, David E. Ross told the world:
> On 3/20/10 7:09 AM, John Klein wrote:
>> I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
>> create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
>> owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
>> code, no style sheets  or templates.
>>  
>> Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could
>> someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.
> 
> Please read my .  Then
> convey to your clients the information under both "Findings" and
> "Conclusions".
> 
> While some individuals prefer HTML-formatted E-mail, others don't.  See
> my  to see why the
> latter can be quite militant about opposing HTML-formatted E-mail.
> 
> Finally, if the messages are actually newsletters, see my
>  regarding why
> newsletters are best published as Web pages with brief E-mail messages
> merely announcing -- and containing links to -- new editions of the
> newsletters.
> 


David, I noticed that in your e-mail samples you couldn't determine the
sender's user-agent in more than half the messages. You might try
installing the "Display Mail User Agent" extension -- it is quite good
in figuring out the MUA from obscure telltales, even if there's no
explicit user-agent string. That way, you could find a bit more about
the senders -- I notice that both the most error-prone and the most
error-free mail clients went unidentified, for instance.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... BOFH excuse #339:
manager in the cable duct
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.3 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

JeffM wrote:


JeffM wrote:

People who still click links in email deserve what they get.
(Phished.)


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Not so fast. Not all links are bad, and there are good practices
that help you avoid that.


...like not clicking on the links.
If you are going to follow a link in email, cut it and paste it into
your browser. With URLs now allowed to use e.g. Cyrillic, things are
*not always* what they appear --even when you hover over links and
they look legit, these days, maybe not.


Well, sure, I suppose I could create a link like this:

which contains five Cyrillic letters that look like Roman ones. But the 
chances of that happening in a message from a trusted colleague are 
minuscule. If some hacker got hold of his computer, they'd normally send 
something full of tip-offs -- at least things that an experienced 
computer user like me would spot a mile away. We're not talking about 
some AOHell user who's hard pressed to find the "Start" button...


I've been doing this for 25 years, and (knock wood) I've never been 
hacked, phished, or infected -- though many have tried. Please don't 
take that as a challenge; I'm just saying I'm doing fine so far, and 
it's because I'm a careful driver.



For example, if a colleague at ABC Corp,
whom you already know and trust,


...and whose address book got hijacked yesterday.


Thanks for snipping the other conditions I included so it would look as 
if I were being unreasonable.



A similar argument can be made for attachments.


The big problem with attachments is that in order to encode them
(so they can be sent via a medium meant for plain text)
they take more bandwidth and storage space than they would
if you used an APPROPRIATE protocol to offer those.


And what, pray tell, is an appropriate protocol? Carrier pigeon? Clay 
tablet?


You call it a "big" problem, but I routinely download five- and 10-MB 
attachments in a minute, so I really don't care if they wasted a few 
electrons. Electrons are cheap, and the supply is limitless.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Daniel wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's
idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter, please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time and a
50mb per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box
size it much larger.

HTML Mail without attachments and no embedded pictures or music doesn't
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently because
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she had
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.



Lucky you, Phillip, but do you live in a bigish city/town or out in the
sticks??

Daniel

So far in the sticks they have to pipe sunshine periodical.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's
idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter, please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time and a
50mb per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box
size it much larger.

HTML Mail without attachments and no embedded pictures or music doesn't
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently because
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she had
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.



Lucky you, Phillip, but do you live in a bigish city/town or out in the 
sticks??


Daniel
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[JeffM]

>JeffM wrote:
>>People who still click links in email deserve what they get.
>>(Phished.)
>>
Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>Not so fast. Not all links are bad,
>and there are good practices that help you avoid that.
>
...like not clicking on the links.
If you are going to follow a link in email,
cut it and paste it into your browser.
With URLs now allowed to use e.g. Cyrillic,
things are *not always* what they appear
--even when you hover over links and they look legit,
these days, maybe not.

>For example, if a colleague at ABC Corp,
>whom you already know and trust,
>
...and whose address book got hijacked yesterday.

>A similar argument can be made for attachments.
>
The big problem with attachments is that in order to encode them
(so they can be sent via a medium meant for plain text)
they take more bandwidth and storage space than they would
if you used an APPROPRIATE protocol to offer those.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Daniel wrote:

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter, please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines
and punched tape readers as well!)

And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)

Daniel


My goodness. My ISP cheapest POTS line allow unlimited access time and a 
50mb  per email box limit per day. I use a slow SDLS 1 mb. and mail box 
size it much larger.


HTML Mail without  attachments and no embedded pictures or music doesn't 
even come close filling up my boxes. I had one warning recently because 
my niece sent 20 uncut Digital Camera Pictures in one whack. if she had 
done maybe ten one day and ten the next would not have been problem. I 
informed her of the situation. no problems since then.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Daniel]

Bill Davidsen wrote:

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not
everyone sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But
egotistical people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone
else are still with us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write
your blog.


Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some
egotistical self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else
should do it some other way" please put it on a web site and post the
link so anyone who care can look at it.

Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other
applications and servers, more networking) and makes the material
available to anyone, it's more likely to cause misunderstanding when no
emphasis is used. Not to mention text not being flowed and
self-formatting into the reader's choice of width rather the poster's idea.

People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML
allows the reader more control over presentation. The days of email over
300 bps dial up stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply
no reason to stick to text any more, and if you choose to filter, please
do it quietly.

And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web
browsing is either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved
past the time when there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost
of inferior communication is now higher than any saving. If you want
saving, limit message size and reject messages with excessive quoting.
That still has benefit.



And so says Bill Davidson whom, I guessing, has ADSL/Cable, so expects 
EVERYBODY to have it!! (and I can go back to 50baud and 75baud machines 
and punched tape readers as well!)


And Bill if I limit my downloaded messages to only those of 1kByte or 
less, that still doesn't stop your 1MByte message arriving on my ISP's 
server for my mail account, so costing me extra because you've exceeded 
my daily 500kByte mail limit. (Don't worry, Bill, it's not just you, I'm 
still trying to educate my family members as well!!)


Daniel
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

JeffM wrote:


People who still click links in email deserve what they get.
(Phished.)


Not so fast. Not all links are bad, and there are good practices that 
help you avoid that. For example, if a colleague at ABC Corp, whom you 
already know and trust, invites you to visit http://www.abccorp.com, and 
you mouse over the link and see the same address in the status bar, 
you're probably OK. On the other hand, if a stranger invites you to 
confirm that you've changed your bank password, and the link appears to 
be to your bank but the status bar shows http://cfm.cn/phishing.asp, 
you'd be well advised to avoid it.


A similar argument can be made for attachments. I know some paranoids 
who say you should never open any attachment of any kind from anyone. 
But my job requires me to receive files from clients for processing, and 
to return my work product to them as an attachment. The whole process 
would come to a screeching halt if we refused to open each other's 
files, and I'd have to find another line of work. So I take reasonable 
precautions, scan incoming files for viruses, etc.


And I'm not going to stop driving my car because some people 
occasionally have accidents.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/22/10 9:04 AM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> That's true of web pages as well, perhaps more so, people add flash, 
> javascript, 
> and all manner of other things. Bold or italics to make meaning clear, links 
> with the URL and display text separate for clarity.

No amount of Flash, strange fonts, or scripts can substitute for
literate writing.  What Strunk and White wrote in "The Elements of
Style" in the middle of the last century is still valid today.


> As I noted before, HTML allows more control to the reader, so it is readable 
> on 
> everything from a cell phone to an HDTV sized monitor. Text will be too wide 
> on 
> one device, and too narrow on another. The simple lists seem totally 
> portable, I 
> mail a newsletter to hundreds of people, and get no complaints, I know they 
> work 
> on IE, Safari, iPhones, the Verizon "touch" phones, and Blackberries. And 
> people 
> can diddle the display width before printing the message, too.
> 
> I'm sure my response to JeffM was as harsh, but there are clear benefits to 
> HTML 
> in a multi-display world, as well as to having color when the display 
> supports it.
> 
> Finally, unless you not only drop HTML but drop MIME as well, you will get 
> HTML 
> attachments. If size is an issue, limit size, but in general people are just 
> using HTML, and your choices are to admit the 80's are over, or posting 
> off-topic rants in response to valid technical questions. When someone says 
> "how 
> do I?" a response of "only stupid people would want to do that" is off topic 
> in 
> my book.

I use only plain ASCII for E-mail.  No one ever complained to me about
the formatting or appearance of my messages.  The same cannot always be
said about HTML-formatted messages.

Early this year, I analyzed 20 HTML-formatted messages.  They contained
an average of 4.6 HTML syntax errors per KB of file size.  (The file
sizes were bloated by HTML formatting to 4.6 times the size of the
equivalent ASCII-formatted content.)  These syntax errors can have
several results:

*   E-mail applications may have trouble viewing HTML-formatted messages
generated by different applications.

*   Those E-mail applications that have no trouble viewing
HTML-formatted messages generated by different applications might not be
able to quote properly the original message when replying or forwarding.

*   Audio E-mail applications for the visually handicapped might not be
able to read the messages.  (This can have severe consequences for
businesses in the U.S. whose E-mail messages violate the Americans with
Disabilities Act.)

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[JeffM]

>MCBastos wrote:
>>Bold or italics to make meaning clear,
>>
As Ross mentions in his page,
too often people think tricks are a substitue for clearly-written
prose.

>>links with the URL and display text separate for clarity.
>>
People who still click links in email deserve what they get.
(Phished.)

Bill Davidsen wrote:
>people can diddle the display width
>before printing the message, too.
>
If you want something to print properly every time,
HTML is *not* the proper format to use.
Portable Document Format (PDF) gives a 100% solution here
--no diddling necessary.

>there are clear benefits to HTML
>
Not in email.  Way too many variables.

If what you want is that
everyone sees your stuff with the *same* layout,
make the last step in your creation process **Save as PDF**.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

MCBastos wrote:


Any HTML message created using an automated WYSIGYG tool, be it
Seamonkey Composer or Adobe Dreamweaver, *will* fail to render correctly
for a large share of recipients. The fancier you get, the more problems
will appear. If you aren't comfortable with hand-coding and researching
tricks all over the Web, I advise you to keep it very plain and simple.

That's true of web pages as well, perhaps more so, people add flash, javascript, 
and all manner of other things. Bold or italics to make meaning clear, links 
with the URL and display text separate for clarity.



JeffM's comment came off a bit harsh, but he does have a point: there's
no well-supported standard for HTML email. What *is* supported is
plaintext -- that will display everywhere, in the way you intended. But
I expect that's not what your customers want to hear.

As I noted before, HTML allows more control to the reader, so it is readable on 
everything from a cell phone to an HDTV sized monitor. Text will be too wide on 
one device, and too narrow on another. The simple lists seem totally portable, I 
mail a newsletter to hundreds of people, and get no complaints, I know they work 
on IE, Safari, iPhones, the Verizon "touch" phones, and Blackberries. And people 
can diddle the display width before printing the message, too.


I'm sure my response to JeffM was as harsh, but there are clear benefits to HTML 
in a multi-display world, as well as to having color when the display supports it.


Finally, unless you not only drop HTML but drop MIME as well, you will get HTML 
attachments. If size is an issue, limit size, but in general people are just 
using HTML, and your choices are to admit the 80's are over, or posting 
off-topic rants in response to valid technical questions. When someone says "how 
do I?" a response of "only stupid people would want to do that" is off topic in 
my book.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:



For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.


I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.

I don't usually, sometimes I do glance at it to see if spam or legit. 
sometimes the titles can be deceiving.



In those cases cntl-U is your friend, look at it in bare text first.

--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Bill Davidsen]

JeffM wrote:

John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.


Don't you understand, USENET is not the prime thrust any more, and not everyone 
sticks with the more efficient 6-bit BCD characters either! But egotistical 
people who think they must thrust their choices on everyone else are still with 
us. Go get a sharp chisel and fresh tablet and write your blog.



Email is a plain text medium.


That hasn't been true for decades.


HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


Feel free. In fact please do. Any time you feel the need to say some egotistical 
self-righteous thing in "I do it this way, so no one else should do it some 
other way" please put it on a web site and post the link so anyone who care can 
look at it.


Outside the obvious drawbacks that it add vast complexity (other applications 
and servers, more networking) and makes the material available to anyone, it's 
more likely to cause misunderstanding when no emphasis is used. Not to mention 
text not being flowed and self-formatting into the reader's choice of width 
rather the poster's idea.


People read email on many devices with many types of display, HTML allows the 
reader more control over presentation. The days of email over 300 bps dial up 
stored on 10MB eight inch drives is over. There's simply no reason to stick to 
text any more, and if you choose to filter, please do it quietly.


And I haven't mentioned that many people read on devices where web browsing is 
either not supported or is extra cost. The world has moved past the time when 
there was a benefit to saving a few bytes, the cost of inferior communication is 
now higher than any saving. If you want saving, limit message size and reject 
messages with excessive quoting. That still has benefit.


--
Bill Davidsen 
  "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[David E. Ross]

On 3/20/10 7:09 AM, John Klein wrote:
> I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
> create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
> owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
> code, no style sheets  or templates.
>  
> Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could
> someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.

Please read my .  Then
convey to your clients the information under both "Findings" and
"Conclusions".

While some individuals prefer HTML-formatted E-mail, others don't.  See
my  to see why the
latter can be quite militant about opposing HTML-formatted E-mail.

Finally, if the messages are actually newsletters, see my
 regarding why
newsletters are best published as Web pages with brief E-mail messages
merely announcing -- and containing links to -- new editions of the
newsletters.

-- 
David E. Ross


Go to Mozdev at  for quick access to
extensions for Firefox, Thunderbird, SeaMonkey, and other
Mozilla-related applications.  You can access Mozdev much
more quickly than you can Mozilla Add-Ons.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Phillip Jones wrote:

> Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>> I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.
>
> I don't usually, sometimes I do glance at it to see if spam or legit.
> sometimes the titles can be deceiving.

Don't forget that a lot of HTML spam contains webbugs, so if you are
connected when you opened it, they know you are a live address - and
will send you lots more. Make sure viewing remote images is disabled. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_bug

Of course this doesn't happen if you read in Plain Text.

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:


Phillip Jones wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.


I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.


   Neither do I; it's always so obvious just by seeing the Subject
line.

Re reading plain text:  go into your settings, choose a font *you* like,
and a size that is comfortable for your eyes, and click OK. Now, nobody
else has a say in what your email looks like.

What do you do with HTML messages that are in 8pt Times New Roman?


Hit View  menu  > zoom  120&  it reverts back to normal on next message.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Phillip Jones wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

JeffM wrote:


John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.
Email is a plain text medium.
HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


But don't you understand, plain-text spam is less effective? The
click-through rates are abysmal.



For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.


I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.

I don't usually, sometimes I do glance at it to see if spam or legit. 
sometimes the titles can be deceiving.


--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:


Paul B. Gallagher wrote:


Phillip Jones wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.

I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.


  Neither do I; it's always so obvious just by seeing the Subject
line. 

Re reading plain text:  go into your settings, choose a font *you* like,
and a size that is comfortable for your eyes, and click OK. Now, nobody
else has a say in what your email looks like.

What do you do with HTML messages that are in 8pt Times New Roman?


CTRL-+++

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

> Phillip Jones wrote:
>> Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>> For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.
>> 
>> I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.
> 
> I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.

  Neither do I; it's always so obvious just by seeing the Subject
line. 

Re reading plain text:  go into your settings, choose a font *you* like,
and a size that is comfortable for your eyes, and click OK. Now, nobody
else has a say in what your email looks like.

What do you do with HTML messages that are in 8pt Times New Roman?

-- 
   -bts
   -Four wheels carry the body; two wheels move the soul
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

Phillip Jones wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

JeffM wrote:


John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.
Email is a plain text medium.
HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


But don't you understand, plain-text spam is less effective? The
click-through rates are abysmal.



For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.


I wouldn't know. I don't read spam.

--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Phillip Jones]

Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

JeffM wrote:


John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.
Email is a plain text medium.
HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


But don't you understand, plain-text spam is less effective? The
click-through rates are abysmal.



For me I get more plaintext-Spam than I do HTML Spam.

I find HTM far easier to read. less tiring on my eyes.

--
Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T."If it's Fixed, Don't Break it"
http://www.phillipmjones.net   http://www.vpea.org
mailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[JeffM]

Paul wrote:
>I NEVER use html in email though and consider it a security risk.
>
So far we've covered incompatibility / rendering problems
and embedded exploits.
http://google.com/search?q=cache:qykvhyKzeuUJ:www.birdhouse.org/etc/evilmail.html+*-outweigh-*-benefits+*-*-*-*-are-not-web-pages+*-*-think-*-message-will-render-*-*-*-*-*-*+*-spamminess-ranking+compatibility.problems+*-*-*-*-security-issues-*-*-*+*-*-doubles-*-size-*-*-*-*+*-increasing-*-*-*-crashes-and-compatibility-problems+wasting-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+choosing-*-font-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+*-violation-*-privacy+_in_-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+*-recommend-*-*-disable-*-*-globally#problem
http://tinyurl.com/HTML-Email-is-Stupid
http://www.birdhouse.org/etc/evilmail.html

Strike 3 is the privacy issue:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_bug#E-mail_web_bugs

>Html messages that I get are deleted without viewing.
>
That's the logical thing to do.  The problem is
in the meantime the idiots clog up your inbox with their crap.
For some folks with tiny inbox limits
this becomes a serious problem.

There are also folks who have limited bandwidth.
Some even have pay-by-the-byte bandwidth.

HTML email is something sent by selfish/ignorant pricks.
At the very least, get overt permission to send somene this crap.
Same deal for attachments.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul B. Gallagher]

JeffM wrote:


John Klein wrote:

I need a way to create several HTML email messages
for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.


First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.
Email is a plain text medium.
HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.


But don't you understand, plain-text spam is less effective? The 
click-through rates are abysmal.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[Paul]

John Klein wrote:

I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
code, no style sheets  or templates.
 
Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could

someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.
 


John Klein
Klein Direct  -  Marketing Lists & Direct Marketing Consulting
Tel  216-295-0545
Fax  216-751-3675
Cell 216-401-6265
jkl...@jklein.com
3329 Clayton Blvd.
Cleveland, OH  44120-3343


I use SM 1117.  An easy way for me to use html is to open a new message,
like this one, then go to Edit/Prefs/SendFormat,  then check "send the
message as formatted text".
I NEVER use html in email though and consider it a security risk.
Html messages that I get are deleted without viewing.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[MCBastos]

Interviewed by CNN on 20/3/2010 12:09, John Klein told the world:
> I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
> create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
> owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
> code, no style sheets  or templates.
>  
> Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could
> someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.

Well, you could, in theory. But HTML in e-mail is a very badly
standardized thing, and it got worse since Microsoft rolled out Outlook
2007 -- which uses MS-Word as a rendering engine (very, very bad support
for modern standards), instead of Internet Explorer (merely weak support
for same standards). The gist of it is that creating a HTML e-mail that
renders acceptably in a variety of clients (both e-mail programs and
webmail sites) is a kind of black art -- a bit like creating a website
in 1999, only worse because now we *know* there is a better way.

Any HTML message created using an automated WYSIGYG tool, be it
Seamonkey Composer or Adobe Dreamweaver, *will* fail to render correctly
for a large share of recipients. The fancier you get, the more problems
will appear. If you aren't comfortable with hand-coding and researching
tricks all over the Web, I advise you to keep it very plain and simple.

JeffM's comment came off a bit harsh, but he does have a point: there's
no well-supported standard for HTML email. What *is* supported is
plaintext -- that will display everywhere, in the way you intended. But
I expect that's not what your customers want to hear.

-- 
MCBastos

This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized
use will be prosecuted under the DMCA.

-=-=-
... BOFH excuse #230:
Lusers learning curve appears to be fractal
*Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.0.3 *
Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[JeffM]

John Klein wrote:
>I need a way to create several HTML email messages
>for transmission by 3rd party email list owners.

First, tell them that is the stupid way to do things.
Email is a plain text medium.
HTML is for Web pages.
1) Create the HTML page.
2) Upload the page to a server.
3) Email only the link to the Web page.
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Re: Creating HTML email messages

[cmcadams]

John Klein wrote:

I am a copywriter with no Internet technology backround, and I need a way to
create several HTML email messages for transmission by 3rd party email list
owners.  Their instructions say that the email message must be in pure HTML
code, no style sheets  or templates.

Can I use SeaMonkey to create these HTML email messages?  If so, could
someone point me in the right direction to get started.  Thanks.


John Klein
Klein Direct  -  Marketing Lists&  Direct Marketing Consulting
Tel  216-295-0545
Fax  216-751-3675
Cell 216-401-6265
jkl...@jklein.com
3329 Clayton Blvd.
Cleveland, OH  44120-3343


I won't pretend to understand the specifics of how you intend to distribute your 
emails, but to compose in HTML one opens Seamonkey email, holds down the Shift key, 
and clicks on Compose.


Mail's HTML capabilities are a subset of what's in Composer. Send yourself a sample 
HTML email, press Ctrl+U to view the message source, see if it meets requirements.


Craig
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