Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
If you were only right.Iwould like him to do a movie on the governments duplicity in Africa and the Sudan.Or the IRS and their unsupported tyranny against the American people.But he knows which side his bread is buttered on,what is safe and what is likely to be a real challenge to his freedoms.He's harmless.Just so much titillation during an election year where the powers that be trot out Frick and Frak and lead us to believe there is really a difference. All Moore is doing is cashing in on a situation,and smirking all the way to the bank. rico BEN ROBERTS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. Perhaps because it's refreshing to hear from a man whose main objective is to highlight human suffering and not seek some personal gain. regards Ben _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Too true Rico Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, it was the world according to Doonesbury It's too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are too busy back packing. Circa 1984 Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Sam ddd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Someone famously said, there are many people who know how to run the country, but they are all busy cutting hair or driving taxis. In the the US they are busy making films also. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I humbly submit that you miss the point of the second half of my statment.To reitrate.He used to be good,he ain't good anymore.He forgot that truth is what made him good not inuendo. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Chill dude..., You had your chance to complain about that move years ago. Can't you read a letterhead or banner? You want to live in the past great. But the topic is F 9/11 not picking the Colorado state flower. Tired of distraction and deception in Philly. - Original Message - From: rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
It's good to know that people like M. Moore still exist. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Rico, And I humbly submit that there's more truth in F 9/11 than anything Moore's done before. As he stated in a public letter this week, the facts were vetted endlessly. The opinions and questions are his. And as he puts it 'rightfully so.' Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I humbly submit that you miss the point of the second half of my statment.To reitrate.He used to be good,he ain't good anymore.He forgot that truth is what made him good not inuendo. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Chill dude..., You had your chance to complain about that move years ago. Can't you read a letterhead or banner? You want to live in the past great. But the topic is F 9/11 not picking the Colorado state flower. Tired of distraction and deception in Philly. - Original Message - From: rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
PLEASE, if you don't think M Moore is after personal gainHAHAHAHAHAHA Mark -Original Message- From: BEN ROBERTS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:38 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. Perhaps because it's refreshing to hear from a man whose main objective is to highlight human suffering and not seek some personal gain. regards Ben _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
PLEASE, if you don't think M Moore is after personal gainHAHAHAHAHAHA Please enligthen me then. what equivalent gain does Mr Moore receive compared to the multi nationals and politicians he criticises? Has he got some stake in the world oil economy that is threatened by the instigation of an illegal US attack on Iraq? Perhaps helping to stop Wal-Mart stocking ammo was an underhand publicity seeking stunt but I'd rather read about that than a president using a tragic attack on innocent people as an excuse to do the same wherever he pleases. Regards Ben _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
PLEASE, if you don't think M Moore is after personal gainHAHAHAHAHAHA Mark There's a grand bit more to it than that Mark. If you can't imagine what all that might be, then perhaps the joke is on you? Todd Swearingen -Original Message- From: BEN ROBERTS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 1:38 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. Perhaps because it's refreshing to hear from a man whose main objective is to highlight human suffering and not seek some personal gain. regards Ben Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Someone famously said, there are many people who know how to run the country, but they are all busy cutting hair or driving taxis. In the the US they are busy making films also. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally start a war is pretty weak. Its more an assertion using almost nothing. I think his smoking gun is a connection in the Carlyle group, which is a large investing firm. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the other stockholders of the companies I invest in, much less socialize and plot to take over the world with them. I'm really anxious to see what little camera tricks he threw into this one when it comes out on DVD. Randall Sanborn -- Original message -- Look pal, speaking as one of Mike's Michigan homeboys,
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. Perhaps because it's refreshing to hear from a man whose main objective is to highlight human suffering and not seek some personal gain. regards Ben _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Actually, it was the world according to Doonesbury It's too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are too busy back packing. Circa 1984 Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Sam ddd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Someone famously said, there are many people who know how to run the country, but they are all busy cutting hair or driving taxis. In the the US they are busy making films also. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Chill dude..., You had your chance to complain about that move years ago. Can't you read a letterhead or banner? You want to live in the past great. But the topic is F 9/11 not picking the Colorado state flower. Tired of distraction and deception in Philly. - Original Message - From: rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally start a war is pretty weak. Its more an assertion using almost nothing. I think his smoking gun is a connection in the Carlyle group, which is a large investing firm. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the other
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Mr. Sanborn you're an ass. Your sources are rice pape, but you patter as if they are solidity. All that makes you is a propigator of lies, which, by the by, makes you completely worthless as a viable point source of reliable data. Now if you don't mind, or even if you do, you're interupting rock radio and the ole' standby Jesus is Just Alright with Me. Now surely you wouldn't want to tilt a Saturday morning worship service.. Personally? I don't really think you care about that or anything else beyond your own bent for distortion. .. As for the degree of affection for Michael Moore's efforts to which you profess cluelessness...? You really have to be one empty hearted bastard not to. Is it hereditary or simply a product of your environment? Happy Happy - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though, slow down your DVD player and do it frame by frame. Moore puts together a sequence of scenes to make it look like Heston is in Flint immediately after the death of the little girl. He actually says Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally. But, from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=859 When I spoke to Moore last week, he confirmed Hardyâs point about the date of the speech, but angrily denied the allegation that he had misled viewers. Moore actually admits the date was off. How does he get off saying he didn't try to mislead people. As for the civilian casualties, there are only a reported maximum of about 11,300 according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net Most of the deaths are by cluster bombs and the initial missile attacks. But go check out the database, those suicide and car bombers are killing more Iraqi's than americans. When you kill 30-100 people per bomb trying to get back at the American's, your seriously hurting your own people. Given the 325,000 killed in Vietnam and lets not forget the millions from WWII. I do not condone the civilian deaths, and I think we still have a long way to go, but war does have casualties, and I think there were significant improvements so far. Randall Sanborn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Randall, This make me laugh and get very angry at the same time. You talk about the attempts to discredit the source instead of arguments, when it comes to yourself. When I then look at the argument, it is about that you tried to discredit the source instead of the arguments. LOL What made me angry is your blatant disrespect for human lives and your playing with numbers, as if it is some kind of valid arguments. One innocent collateral causality is one too much. Any other view is inhuman and arrogant, because I say so. It is not possible to justify anything based on higher or lower numbers of death. If the reason stinks, it cannot be justified in any way and any reason for killing people have some smell to it. Have you ever considered to take a job on a Circus. It seems that you are a natural talent for argubatic. Hakan At 01:58 02/07/2004, you wrote: I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though, slow down your DVD player and do it frame by frame. Moore puts together a sequence of scenes to make it look like Heston is in Flint immediately after the death of the little girl. He actually says Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally. But, from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=859 When I spoke to Moore last week, he confirmed Hardy's point about the date of the speech, but angrily denied the allegation that he had misled viewers. Moore actually admits the date was off. How does he get off saying he didn't try to mislead people. As for the civilian casualties, there are only a reported maximum of about 11,300 according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net Most of the deaths are by cluster bombs and the initial missile attacks. But go check out the database, those suicide and car bombers are killing more Iraqi's than americans. When you kill 30-100 people per bomb trying to get back at the American's, your seriously hurting your own people. Given the 325,000 killed in Vietnam and lets not forget the millions from WWII. I do not condone the civilian deaths, and I think we still have a long way to go, but war does have casualties, and I think there were significant improvements so far. Randall Sanborn Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though, slow down your DVD player and do it frame by frame. Moore puts together a sequence of scenes to make it look like Heston is in Flint immediately after the death of the little girl. He actually says Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally. But, from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=859 When I spoke to Moore last week, he confirmed Hardy's point about the date of the speech, but angrily denied the allegation that he had misled viewers. Moore actually admits the date was off. How does he get off saying he didn't try to mislead people. As for the civilian casualties, there are only a reported maximum of about 11,300 according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net Most of the deaths are by cluster bombs and the initial missile attacks. But go check out the database, those suicide and car bombers are killing more Iraqi's than americans. When you kill 30-100 people per bomb trying to get back at the American's, your seriously hurting your own people. Given the 325,000 killed in Vietnam and lets not forget the millions from WWII. I do not condone the civilian deaths, and I think we still have a long way to go, but war does have casualties, and I think there were significant improvements so far. Randall Sanborn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though, slow down your DVD player and do it frame by frame. Moore puts together a sequence of scenes to make it look like Heston is in Flint immediately after the death of the little girl. He actually says Just as he did after the Columbine shooting, Charlton Heston showed up in Flint, to have a big pro-gun rally. But, from: http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=859 When I spoke to Moore last week, he confirmed Hardy's point about the date of the speech, but angrily denied the allegation that he had misled viewers. Moore actually admits the date was off. How does he get off saying he didn't try to mislead people. As for the civilian casualties, there are only a reported maximum of about 11,300 according to http://www.iraqbodycount.net Most of the deaths are by cluster bombs and the initial
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
. America may be the land of milk and honey, but the fascist beehive has Stinger (tm) Missiles that can and will swarm in the blink of an eye when the collective preservation instinct is triggered by imagined threats, and the docile dairy herd is plagued with a variant of Mad Cow Disease that is curable with liberal doses of truth. I should warn you about the treatment of the sick herd, it can be as physically hard to go through and as emotionally hard to witness as chemotherapy If the truth doesn't induce the herd into a suicidal stampede off the nearest cliff, the prognosis is a healthier, more productive, and contented cooperative community of cattle with enhanced maternal instincts, which with the aid of a diligent and determined, well funded husbandry regimen will last through generations into the indefinite future. William J. Dwyer, Drug War Freedom Fighter and thrice removed maternal relative of William Lloyd Garrison PS: Resistance is NOT futile. WAKE UP and you will not be assimilated. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:00 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I'm curious as to what FoxNews has to do wtih anything. It seems to me that your implying that I am dangerously republican, unfortunately, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't emphatecally support Bush, and I don't punch the republican hole on the ballot without knowing who I'm voting for. I am actually an independent and I tend to vote for people who are quite moderate. I think Bush did make a number of mistakes and I would like nothing more than to see Edwards become President. So I have no neo-conservative bias. My problem is that Moore doesn't make good arguements. Moore shows pictures and tells stories but concludes very little. He implies many things and leaves it to the audience to decide. He doesn't leave many options to pick from, but at least they buy into his theories without him blatantly spitting out falsities. In his documentary about how bad GM is for closing the Flint plant, he shows evictions and people getting kicked out onto the street. It's no result of the GM closing, the person didn't work for GM but it made a good picture for his point. In Bowling for Columbine he references a little 6 year old who got hold of a gun and killed someone or maybe even himself. It was evidence though of how guns should be out of every home. Irregardless of the fact that the gun probably would have been illegally in the crack house where the kid lived and was abused. Its good upstanding households like that that are good and accurate reference material. His references to the Bush families connections to Osama are out of place a well. The connections to the Bin Laden family are quite public. The Bin Ladens have tons of connections in America, they're rich, so are the Bush's, guess what, the rich get rich and stay rich by making connections with other people that are rich. I don't think the Bush family planned terrorist attacks to use as reasons for war and then exploit them for money. I think there is something curious about the war in Iraq, but I also think Saddam should have been taken out in the Gulf War. Of course there is the best part with the mother weeping for her son. Thats footage that needs to be shown. Of course it should always be followed by a bunch of American's killing all those civillians. This is of course irregardless of the fact that almost 70% of Iraqi's are happy that Saddam is now out of power and that the casualty rate for US troops is really quite low for such a large scale head on assault. The Coalition has lost about 1000 troops in Iraq, as opposed to the 58,000 who died in Vietnam. I'd say there is a significant improvement. But, we couldn't mention that there. We also strategically ignore the precision capabilities of the weapons used as well. A large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm wiling to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by Americans though. The car bombs, etc tend to take more Iraqis than Americans. So all in all Moore does a real fine job of showing a twisted side of reality. The movie was a twist of truth, and I don't think he even tries to show his point. Rather he shows what he thinks will sway people against Bush. Whether you like Bush or not, this is not an accurate portrayal of anything other than Michael Moore's hatred for George W. Bush. Randall Sanborn Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally start a war is pretty weak. Its more an assertion using almost nothing. I think his smoking gun is a connection in the Carlyle group, which is a large investing firm. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the other stockholders of the companies I invest in, much less socialize and plot to take over the world with them. I'm really anxious to see what little camera tricks he threw into this one when it comes out on DVD. Randall Sanborn -- Original message -- Look pal, speaking as one of Mike's Michigan homeboys, you and I are gonna throw down. When Mike says, The facts are true, the opinions are mine, he means it. If you have a mental disorder that distorts your analytical skills to the point where you can't tell fact from opinion, then you really should only read Mike's books or watch his films under the supervision of a trained mental health specialist. Until you're ready to seek mental health services, I suggest you go back to your flock of ostriches and stick your head back in the sands of the mainstream media informational wasteland. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Randall, I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. That goes ditto for me as well, especially when folks such as yourself point an entire list to spin sights dedicated solely to fragging those who present factual informatioin or reasonably supported perspectives contrary to the conservative party line. I was appreciably amused with the pro-Bill Oh-Really? bits found at one of your sources. Forget Oh-Really's snotty mouth and bad manners. That sight conjours up distortions for every deceipt that he's practiced on the public for decades. And sadly, as long as he's got people similar to yourself defending him he'll never have to speak truthfully. Must be nice. Doubtful that you're getting paid for your efforts either. What a shamI mean shame. Again, thanks for the chuckles. I have this sneakin' suspicion that you have a few more of these gems up your sleeve just itchin' to slip out. Ohone other thing. Relative to your poker skills, or in this case your lack thereof, there's this little beaut... A large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm willing to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by Americans though. Me thinks that you might want to get a grip on the numbers before you initiate your practices of dispersion, much less start laying money down on your peculiar beliefs. Ten to twelve thousand civilian deaths during the initial weeks of the invasion If the bombs hadn't dropped they wouldn't be dead, now would they? Those were American/Coalition bombs, now weren't they? And they were dropped because America's favourite antagonist decided to show everyone his full depth and breadth of ineptitude. But it's their fault that they're dead, huh? So how about quantifying what you call a very large portion? Go ahead, take your time. But when you're finished, I'll give you 10:1 odds that you're completely in error. But hell, it's your money - bet what you want. Seems to me that you've got a sad knack of placing responsibility in places where it doesn't belong. Doesn't speak well for your powers of discernment. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 1:20 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Mr. Sanborn, I think you are quite right to defend your point of view, I for one believe in free speech, and call for proof. losing jobs is never any one's fault, no matter why! AND IF WE HAVE TO, attacking nations, or killing soldiers, we should do it -if they didn't expect to die why did they put on a uniform . If Sadamm had been a benevolent despot and made his deals with the US he'd still be here; Its our right to call the shots and decide who lives and who dies, me , bechtel and bin Laden, a father of 56. There is always one rotten one in the barrel. They started it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Jun 28, 2004 1:59 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I'm curious as to what FoxNews has to do wtih anything. It seems to me that your implying that I am dangerously republican, unfortunately, you couldn't be more wrong. I don't emphatecally support Bush, and I don't punch the republican hole on the ballot without knowing who I'm voting for. I am actually an independent and I tend to vote for people who are quite moderate. I think Bush did make a number of mistakes and I would like nothing more than to see Edwards become President. So I have no neo-conservative bias. My problem is that Moore doesn't make good arguements. Moore shows pictures and tells stories but concludes very little. He implies many things and leaves it to the audience to decide. He doesn't leave many options to pick from, but at least they buy into his theories without him blatantly spitting out falsities. In his documentary about how bad GM is for closing the Flint plant, he shows evictions and people getting kicked out onto the street. It's no result of the GM closing, the person didn't work for GM but it made a good picture for his point. In Bowling for Columbine he references a little 6 year old who got hold of a gun and killed someone or maybe even himself. It was evidence though of how guns should be out of every home. Irregardless of the fact that the gun probably would have been illegally in the crack house where the kid lived and was abused. Its good upstanding households like that that are good and accurate reference material. His references to the Bush families connections to Osama are out of place a well. The connections to the Bin Laden family are quite public. The Bin Ladens have tons of connections in America, they're rich, so are the Bush's, guess what, the rich get rich and stay rich by making connections with other people that are rich. I don't think the Bush family planned terrorist attacks to use as reasons for war and then exploit them for money. I think there is something curious about the war in Iraq, but I also think Saddam should have been taken out in the Gulf War. Of course there is the best part with the mother weeping for her son. Thats footage that needs to be shown. Of course it should always be followed by a bunch of American's killing all those civillians. This is of course irregardless of the fact that almost 70% of Iraqi's are happy that Saddam is now out of power and that the casualty rate for US troops is really quite low for such a large scale head on assault. The Coalition has lost about 1000 troops in Iraq, as opposed to the 58,000 who died in Vietnam. I'd say there is a significant improvement. But, we couldn't mention that there. We also strategically ignore the precision capabilities of the weapons used as well. A large number of civilians died in Iraq during the war and occupation. I'm wiling to bet that a very large portion of those deaths were not inflicted by Americans though. The car bombs, etc tend to take more Iraqis than Americans. So all in all Moore does a real fine job of showing a twisted side of reality. The movie was a twist of truth, and I don't think he even tries to show his point. Rather he shows what he thinks will sway people against Bush. Whether you like Bush or not, this is not an accurate portrayal of anything other than Michael Moore's hatred for George W. Bush. Randall Sanborn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email
