Re: [Talk-GB] OpenStreetMap's first flight!
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Frankie Roberto wrote: Have copied chippy and RichardF in, in the hope that they can help us connect things up. Potlatch doesn't do WMS, it only does 900913 tiles (like OSM itself). You specify them in this format: http://tiles.mytileserver.org/directory/!/!/!.png where !, !, ! are z, x and y respectively. So, for example, you can have OSM Mapnik tiles by typing http://a.tile.openstreetmap.org/!/!/!.png None of the links on that warper.geothings.net page are in that format, 1) Grab the geotiffs 2) gdalwarp 3) mapnik generate_tiles.py 4) stick them somewhere public 5) http://www.flickr.com/photos/gravitystorm/3930896331/ Now it would be awesome if mapwarper could warp straight to 900913, since that would save another warping. And I'm only using mapnik since it's the hammer I have to hand for combining multiple rasters and spitting out tiles. YMMV. Anyway, on the wider topic I believe individual warping is the best approach, and it would be nice to rank images on their verticalness so that I can stack them up with the most vertical ones visible on top and the most oblique ones where there isn't any better alternative. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] how to map this? cycleway or footpath?
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 11:11 PM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Valent Turkovic valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: How do you differentiate from path and footpath tag? What is the difference between them? Can you show me an example? As the wiki says, briefly: highway=path is a generic path (i.e. any path) highway=footway (not footpath) is a designated footpath; i.e., mainly/exclusively for pedestrians Oh FFS, who changed the definition of highway=footway again? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] NOVAM viewer
On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:58 AM, Christoph Boehme christ...@b3e.net wrote: Robert Naylor wrote: On Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:27:16 +0100, Brian Prangle bpran...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi everyone Shelter = yes/no I think is essential to leave in as a requirement as to whether a bus stop is completley surveyed or not. For two reasons: indication of a shelter is a representation of what's present on the ground and it's a pretty siginificant presence ( after all we tag and map smaller things like post boxes and park benches!); and it's also useful for bus passengers to know whether they're going to get wet or not when waiting for a bus ( for when we can eventually actually render this on maps) How about adding an option to set wheelchair=yes to mark the new higher kerbs that are suddenly appearing everywhere (at least round here anyway) http://www.flickr.com/photos/pobice/3925707792/ I would prefer to call it something like barrierfree=yes as it is not only helpful for wheelchair users. I don't see a barrier elsewhere. Let's mark what's physically there instead of the implications of the impact of not having whatever is being mapped. So if there's a raised kerb at the bus stop, mark that there is a raised kerb. kerb=raised? Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Brainstorming: Simple Revert-Tools
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Peter Körnerosm-li...@mazdermind.de wrote: It could then offer the possibilities to Exactly. Call it what you like, but it'll need to ask for user input, which makes it an editor rather than a blind revert tool. So long as everyone remembers when they're designing the system that you can't do blind reverts with confidence! Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A tile that just won't update
On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Shaun McDonaldsh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk wrote: Tweaking of the colours will fix the problem. It requires a lot of experimentation. Tweaking the colours will mask the problem, not fix it, and it'll still go wrong further down the line. The colour reduction on the mapnik tiles is simply a Siren of the Greek Mythology type ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren ) - it works well for most cases, seems like a good idea, and then breaks down horribly. See also http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/2212#comment:1 Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: P.S. Currently there is a possibility to add tags, but those are not predefined, there is no clear explanation how to use them etc. Exactly. Saying 'just use tags' does not solve the problem. Just use tags. There needs to be some agreed definition of what the tags mean, and a simple way for everyone to add them when uploading traces. You can type tags into a box, that's a pretty simple way to add them I would suggest a series of checkboxes when uploading a trace file * Method of transport used (tick all that apply) [ ] motorcar [ ] bicycle [ ] foot (along road / street) and so on. These could be turned into tags for storage in the database, as long as everyone agrees on what tags to use. As long as everyone agrees aahahahahahaha Anyway, you're going about it the wrong way. The way to come to consensus about what tags people should use is to first build a convention around using them. So you should think about consuming the tags (e.g. colour highlighting anything tagged car in red in JOSM) and then more people will tag them with the correct tags. I'm amazed that anyone experienced in OSM is proposing *not* using tags and getting the order of usage (leads to) convention (leads to) documentation (leads to) presets back to front - you don't start with presets in order to force convention. Final comment - make an app to upload GPX traces to the API using OAuth, and specify any tags you want using any interface you design. Call it Awesome GPX uploader or make it a JOSM plugin or something. I've even put some ruby scripts for uploading traces as one of the OAuth examples at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OAuth/Examples Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Trace type
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: By analogy, when adding a street to OSM, most editors do not just show a blank textbox and expect the user to enter key=value pairs manually. They show a few common choices, which have been agreed on by the OSM community (whether 'de facto', by common usage, or 'de jure', by some arcane wiki voting procedure - but either way, some kind of agreement). I suspect that if all OSM editors merely popped up a dialogue box with blank fields and the user documentation 'just use tags', the growth of the project would be a bit slower than it is. You need more understanding of the history of how OSM grew - the editors did used to just throw up blank textboxes and everything worked fine. The usage came first, then consensus, then presets. Documentation was in there somewhere, to varying extents! That would certainly work. To me, this seems a bit 'rude' in some way; wouldn't it be better for the JOSM developers to first build consensus around some proposed tagging system, before implementing it unilaterally? No. It wasn't rude when I started rendering Sustrans' mileposts - the objects were tagged, so I got cracking. Consensus was achieved by tagging, then it got rendered. Not by presets, nor by discussing - presets - tagging, which is what you're trying to do. But as long as the end result is that we have some agreed way of tagging GPX traces with the information wanted, Maybe this is the point you're missing - we already have conventions on tagging GPS traces. car outnumbers motorcar by orders of magnitude. It doesn't take long plugging words into the tag search to see that many people are tagging with the forms of transport used. So let's consolidate that by using the tags (could be both, in the case of motorcar/car) and encouraging the however-many-percent that aren't tagged already to become tagged. I don't tag my traces because there's no point. If there was a menu I wouldn't bother because there's no point. Make there be a point. Oh, I agree that usage is the first step. But we won't get people using any tagging system for foot vs bicycle vs motorcar unless there is some obvious way to specify this info when you upload. Just giving the user a blank textbox doesn't cut it. Rubbish. People will put tags in when it's either useful to them or useful to others. When it's useful, it can then be improved. Working on improving the UI to enter information that nobody is using is bass-ackwards. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Pierenpier...@gmail.com wrote: And yes, I'm expecting fast reactions from the admins You're a gold-level member of the OSMF, right? Y'know, the level that means your annual membership fee is the same cost as a full time admin to do your beck and call, right? Didn't think so. until a real revert in one click is possible from the interface like in wikipedia. You'll be waiting a loonnngg time for that then. Unless you have some l33t h4x0rz skills you're willing to share? After all, everyone else who's worked on revert code has consistently said on these mailing lists oh yeah, a revert button would be trivial, I'll do it tomorrow. Oh, wait, no we didn't. I understand what it's like dealing with vandals, so I know why your annoyed. But please don't start demanding stuff on the mailing lists from other volunteers, admins or not, it's not going to get anything solved. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] RR8 - Possible International Vandal (assistance required in various countries)
On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:34 PM, Dermot McNallyderm...@gmail.com wrote: But what we are dealing with here is a proven vandal who won't engage with community members. Action required. Yes. By you. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism#Vandalism_response Doesn't mention demanding action on the mailing list. So do it properly (especially the bit about assuming good faith), document what's going on, build a list of concrete examples - i.e. put a case together (maybe on the wiki?). If it's not possible to resolve within the community (messages, emails, offering the guy help, explaining the trunk/primary issues etc), then contact the DWG - but please don't just email them with a ban this guy cause I say he's a vandal type email; do it properly, give them convincing case notes. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Export Cyclemap
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Bob Kerropenstreetmapcraigmil...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi, Is there any legal or other reason that there is not an option to export Opencyclemap tiles. In the 'format to export' opencyclemap is not there. http://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1049 It's not possible to do any kind of vector export (well, to pretty much all intents and purposes) due to technical restrictions. There's a reasonable case to be made for the .png export but it's not something I really have time to do. Other services such as OJW's static map creator fills the gap, see http://dev.openstreetmap.org/~ojw/StaticMap/ Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] English chapter
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Nick Blacknickbla...@gmail.com wrote: Focus. OSM-F focuses on global issues, OSMF-GB focusses on local / national issues. That sounds like the need for a working group, not a separate legal entity. OSM-F Local * Local community building and outreach * Local / national conferences * Local / national press contacts outreach * Supporting local user groups in mapping and outreach * Running local websites * Local membership schemes If OSMF can't deal with a sub-task to handle UK-related matters, what hope is there of any sub-organisation dealing with sub-sub-tasks? Do we need to incorporate OSMF-GB-London-Postboxes Ltd, or would OSMF-GB-London be able to set up a relevant working group? We only need separate legal entities when we reach the edges of separate legal systems. It feels like we're having a relations are not categories argument here - we don't need to put every different activity into a separate legal body. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] copyright problem with data copied from a map
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Renaud MICHELr.h.michel+...@gmail.com wrote: Any advice? Hi Renaud, I think the best thing for you to do in this case is to contact the Foundation, as explained in the FAQ. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Faq#I_think_someone.27s_been_entering_copyrighted_data_-_how_do_we_deal_with_that.3F Provide all the details you have gathered so far, and it will be passed on. Copyright violation is something we need to take seriously, and the relevant working group can take further actions such as banning the user and removing data from the history should such things prove necessary. You have certainly done the right thing so far by contacting the user directly to make initial investigations. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Proliferation of path vs. footway
On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Tom Chancet...@acrewoods.net wrote: Hi there, I'm 100% unclear about the distinction between highway=path and highway=footway. Paths and footways, which seem to be used for the same sorts of ways by different mappers, both show up differently on the main map. That's because these maps are turning into colourful symbolisations of the tags, rather than being actual maps. A large constituency of people think that every tag should be rendered differently, whereas in fact the cartographers should be deciding how to communicate real-world features to the users of the maps. Especially in the case of paths, since we have multiple ways of tagging exactly the same thing, or where the differences are so small (c.f. my previous comments regarding minor/tertiary/unclassified) that they are the same thing to most people. The Mapnik and ti...@home stylesheets have quite enough different way styles already, Too true. My attempts to reconcile highway=path into the rendering scheme for OCM continues. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] 3 more changesets from Liam123 for reversion
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 8:21 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Peter Miller wrote: 3 more changesets today from Liam123 for reversion. I have added them to the revert page and have copied this email the Andy. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log You got there before me - I was just looking at those too. He's making really subtle edits - like moving a supermarket a few metres, putting a little hook on the end of a railway bridge, things like that, which undermine the accuracy of the map but wouldn't be obvious just looking at it, even if you were the author. He moved the River Yare estuary by a few tens of metres, which from anyone else I'd have accepted as a surveyed correction. He moved a bit of boundary in the Orwell estuary near Ipswich and changed a railway to goods with lines=8, which again is just plausible but I don't trust it. I've updated the wiki page. The two changesets I have taken action on* are vandalism, and I'd be happy to stand up and explain myself. The other two changesets contain literally hundreds of little node moves of coastlines and maritime admin boundaries. Since I can't tell whether they are vandalism or improvements, I'm going to leave my suspicions to one side and wait for any compelling evidence before I take action. Still, this guy needs banning IMHO, and I'm writing to the DWG to say so. Even though I know they know about it. Cheers, Andy * I'm going to avoid calling it reverting, since it's not really, it's just hopefully patching it up a bit. YMMV etc. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Liam123 again
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Nick Barnesn...@thebarnesfamily.eu wrote: To my mind, nobody ought to be able to edit live map data unless: No, no, no - completely wrong approach. Think using Dettol continuously to keep your house clean - most people now realise that healthy immune systems come from exposure to tolerable infections etc. So where we are at is that we've got a body (OSM db) and not much immune system (powers to deal with mistakes, vandalism etc). You're suggesting we use dettol and I think we should take a more laid back approach and work improving our capacity to deal with the problems. Our policies are improving. Our tools are improving. Things are getting better. As to your point about trusting OSM - global consistency is a mirage. The only way we'd get that is emptying the DB and letting nobody edit. But if we start with the assumption that there is *always* something wrong in OSM and that there always will be, we can come up with ways of dealing with it. For example, you could take the planet file, wait for a fortnight, and apply any anti-vandalism fixes that have occurred since. Or there's other ways of doing things along those lines. We'll never make every single edit perfect so we shouldn't aim on relying on such. Finally, yes, I think from his actions there's a strong possibility Liam123 is poking the ants' nest. However, he'll get bored and move on eventually. Let's work on making life easier for us than for him, and keep assuming that 99.995% of people's first, second, third and all subsequent edits are positive - and keep the baby in the bathtub. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Liam123 again
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Christopher Osbornechris.gai...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to hear from the DWG on how they handle the edit wars in Cyprus. Must be some kind of precedent? Handled, past tense, I believe. I've heard that it's now resolved. Anyway, that was a dispute, not vandalism, so it's quite different really. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Bing Imagery
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 3:36 AM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: I know google forbids it, but I haven't heard about MS/Bing... Have they disallowed use of their sat imagery or is it explicitly forbidden in their TCs? It doesn't need to be explicitly forbidden for it to still be forbidden. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [RFC] highway=unclassified currently is too ambiguous, so here's my proposal to fix it.
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 9:30 AM, John Smithdelta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: but the emails in the last day or 2 have gone no where in addressing the issue, Seriously, there's a lot of people subscribed to this list, and very few joining the conversation. Maybe everyone is watching 5 or 6 people getting themselves into gordian knots and thinking to themselves that they'd rather spend the time mapping than discussing what is, after all, almost completely irrelevant to anyone who doesn't have OCD. It's like listening to a conversation about sorting dingbats alphabetically. Maybe when we have all the roads in the world entered, named and with the right geometry we'll have nothing better to do than decide the difference between tertiary, minor, unclassified and whatnot. Until then, there are simply more important things to do. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Liam123 alert!
On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 12:59 PM, Peter Millerpeter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote: Can I suggest that you (David) immediately add this to the GB Revert Request log (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ GB_revert_request_log) , send Liam123 asking him to stop and forward the revert request to Andy Allan requesting a revert. Please can no- one revert any of Lian123's edits in the mean time and leave these to be done by Andy Allen. Reverted. I know the policy on reverts is that it's best to contact the person first, but I'm exempting myself from this policy in Liam123's case and if anyone wants to complain about my behaviour then fair enough. I did send an after-the-fact message to him, text is below. Apart from what I mention there was a smattering of nodes moved around in various places, given the lack of imagery I'm of the opinion it's mindless tinkering rather than useful edits. It's hard to validate whether there's legitimate work in amongst it; it's also worth if anyone has the time checking that the revert handled everything properly. Cheers, Andy Hi there, My name is Andy and I'm another OpenStreetMap contributor from London. I noticed today that you've made some edits to various objects, but I'm afraid that I had to change many things back to the way they were before because you appear to have made some mistakes. For example, * you added a tracktype=grade1 to the highspeed 1 railway line, but that tag isn't for railways * you changed a pier in the thames, making it much longer than it should be * you changed lots of maxspeed tags to put them in mph, but without units, they mean kph. See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed Please be careful when editing OpenStreetMap to make sure everything is correct when you are doing it. If you need any help or have any questions you can either ask me, or join one of the mailing lists like talk-gb@openstreetmap.org - see http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-london Thanks, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Search field on www.openstreetmap.org
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hughest...@compton.nu wrote: There are also issues with search at the moment which mean we don't actually want to make it too prominent. It's worth pointing out that there are developers who are working on improving the search (primarily David Earl), so it's a known issue that's being worked on rather than something that's being ignored. When we have the improvements we need to make it work better, then I'm sure it'll be appropriate to make it more prominent. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Search field on www.openstreetmap.org
See the following: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Name_finder http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/namefinder Cheers, Andy On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Yann Coupiny...@coupin.net wrote: Just out of curiosity, is the indexing/search code available somewhere? I'm intrigued by geosearch... Yann Le 30 juil. 09 à 17:01, David Earl a écrit : Andy Allan wrote: It's worth pointing out that there are developers who are working on improving the search (primarily David Earl), so it's a known issue that's being worked on rather than something that's being ignored. Indeed. I am currently reloading the index from the planet file. The index hasn't been updated since January. Once reloaded it should then be kept up to date as before. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] is_in and similar tags
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 4:09 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: The reason I gave was for name searching, not routing. It allows the result of a search to be given a descriptive context that isn't currently possible any other way. It allows the result of a search to be given a descriptive context that isn't currently possible in any other way *that you want to code*. I know you're a strong proponent of the is_in tag, because it makes your life 100 times easier when building the namefinder. That doesn't make it a good idea. What you should really be doing is ask someone to provide, every week, a planet file which has all the is_in tags automatically generated from the polygons, on as many nodes as you find useful. That way the database isn't full of duplicated data, it's easy to edit (c.f. move one boundary vs updating 100,000 is_in tags), mappers don't need to bother with them, bots don't need to fix them, and you don't need to write any code. Maybe some smart cookie could even write an osmosis plugin that does the calculations. Let's stop the is_in debate - yes, they are useful to data consumers, no, they shouldn't be in OSM itself, and no, nobody has yet stepped up to sort it out. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] is_in and similar tags
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 5:20 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Andy Allan wrote: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 4:09 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: The reason I gave was for name searching, not routing. It allows the result of a search to be given a descriptive context that isn't currently possible any other way. It allows the result of a search to be given a descriptive context that isn't currently possible in any other way *that you want to code*. that I want to code *now*. :-) Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Adding unofficial cycle routes
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Richard Mannrichard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: While a signposted route on the ground is the best criterion for a reactive mapper, I think you can proactively identify cycle routes unambiguously prior to that (at least well enough that there won't be edit wars). Sometimes the reality follows the map. I think the criteria are something like: 1) clear objective for the route (best way from x to y) 2) reasonably clear intended user group (Sustrans' sensible 12-yr old, for instance) 3) route alternatives to have been surveyed on the ground, and considered against those objectives, to the extent that the dominant input becomes local knowledge If the intended user group is sufficiently dominant for the area, I think it's reasonable to put such routes in as the local cycle network. Maybe in some other project, but let's stick to factual data for OSM. The best way to cycle for a dominant user group is not factual data. If you want to make a map showing such routes in order to help cyclists, prod governments or whatever than that's a great idea, but that's not what should go into the OSM db. Cheers, Andy See the ones I've set up in Oxford as examples (use lcn=yes instead of lcn_ref=number if they are unnumbered). In the Oxford case, 3 of the routes are fully signposted, the rest are intermittently signposted, and a reasonable distillation of what has been long-discussed (and putting them on the map is helping to prod the County into improving the signposting). But I wouldn't put in routes that are for small/atypical user groups, or which aren't notably better at achieving an objective than just using the normal road hierarchy. Richard ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Adding unofficial cycle routes
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 4:04 PM, John McKerrellj...@mckerrell.net wrote: How about a bus route? Though there's bus stops along the way there's no arrows or anything like that saying bus route goes this way. Not trying to be difficult, just wondering. I can verify which way the number 37 bus goes approximately 60 times a day more often than I can verify where the high tide line is :-) I like to think of the scenario where if two OSMers disagree could a third member join them both at the place in question and arbitrate. With bus routes that's possible. With unofficial cycle routes, that's often not. I'm not saying that *only* information verifiable on-the-ground is acceptable, but it certainly a strong indicator that it's acceptable. And for some reason, the third person is always Andy Robinson in my mind. Curious. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Steve Hillst...@nexusuk.org wrote: On Wed, 22 Jul 2009, Nicholas Barnes wrote: Should, for example, the component ways making up the roundabout be grouped in their own I'm a roundabout relationship? Do we need to be able to tell which ways are part of a roundabout anyway? I mean, on the ground a roundabout is just a one-way circular road with some other roads coming off it - there isn't really anything special about it that makes it a roundabout. The only use of an explicit I'm a roundabout tag/relation that I can immediately think of is to make driving directions more human-readable (i.e. At roundabout, take the 3rd exit). In this case it may be better for the data user to use some heuristic, much as we do ourselves when we look at a piece of road. e.g. If there is a closed (clockwise in the UK) one-way loop with a diameter of less than X metres then consider it a roundabout when generating human-readable driving directions. Using this kind of heuristic would also have the advantage of setting an application-specific upper bound to the size of a roundabout - when roundabouts get beyond a certain size then it is probably better for sat-navs to go back to the usual take the next left driving directions instead of take the 7th exit. I disagree - I've come across town-centre one-way systems that are smaller than some large out-of-town roundabouts. There is a clear distinction between them in the way they are signed - e.g. using a roundabout ahead warning triangle, so we should in fact record which are roundabouts and which are just circular oneway streets, since they are in fact different on the ground. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:33 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Lennard wrote: Brian Prangle wrote: Most public transport route maps do show the whole roundabout as part of the route - perhaps we should follow their example? If the return trip takes the same roads, eventually the bus will have navigated the whole roundabout, and then the whole roundabout *is* part of the route. As usual, I have a counter example - the bus station leads off the roundabout and comes on to it further on, so there is one section of roundabout that none of the 40 buses an hour that use it travel over! OTOH, some routes go round one-and-a-half times, so should I include that section twice in the relation? (No, I'm not being serious). Yes. Relations are ordered, so you can (and should) put in the exact sequence of ways that the route passes over. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [Talk-transit] [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
Brian Prangle wrote: Most public transport route maps do show the whole roundabout as part of the route - perhaps we should follow their example? No. Don't put in garbage into openstreetmap just to mimic other inferior maps! On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Lennardl...@xs4all.nl wrote: If the return trip takes the same roads, eventually the bus will have navigated the whole roundabout, and then the whole roundabout *is* part of the route. Blatantly not true for any roundabout that has been modeled with flared approach roads. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-transit mailing list Talk-transit@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
Re: [OSM-talk] Do we care if its forest or wood? Natural world mapping ...
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Greg Troxelg...@ir.bbn.com wrote: yes, land_use=forestry perhaps implies land_cover=trees, Not when they've all just been chopped down :-) land_use=forestry land_cover = mud_treestumps_and_woodchips But seriously, there's a difference between an area being used for forestry and an area covered in trees, and in the Venn diagram there's no empty sets. Which makes them orthoginal. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Do we care if its forest or wood? Natural world mapping ...
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 9:38 PM, Tylertyler.ritc...@gmail.com wrote: eh... I'm less fond of this, just because I'm not sold on there being 1 and only 1 land use for an area but I have no supporting evidence to back up my iffy feeling Many areas-with-trees in the UK are used for both forestry and mountain biking. And I mean that the owners of the land (the Forestry Commission) build and maintain mountain biking and other recreational facilities among the trees; such facilities are rudely interrupted every few decades when the trees need a bit of a makeover. So we have (at least) three orthogonal properties a) Are there trees, swamp, mud or rocks on the ground (land cover) b) Is the area used for forestry, recreation or military training (land use) c) Is the area administered or designated or named as a National Forest State Park National Park World Heritage Site or some other such designation (administrative) None of those imply what goes on in the other two categories. Well, that's my two cents. Cheers, Andy P.S. Discussions of the value in requiring the guys who make timber also being mandated to benefit society is an exercise left to talk-gb@ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Do we care if its forest or wood? Natural world mapping ...
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Alice Kaerastkaer...@qvox.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:48:17 +0100 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: So we have (at least) three orthogonal properties a) Are there trees, swamp, mud or rocks on the ground (land cover) b) Is the area used for forestry, recreation or military training (land use) c) Is the area administered or designated or named as a National Forest State Park National Park World Heritage Site or some other such designation (administrative) There is also another property which hasn't been considered - type of trees. Evergreen vs. Deciduous might be nice to know. Ordnance survey maps differentiate between coniferous and non-coniferous and has symbols for coppice and orchard. Ah, that's just sub-typing of category A though - you can't have deciduous rocks or coniferous mud, so type of trees is a subcategory of land cover is trees rather than an independent (i.e. orthogonal) property. Doesn't mean that it's not important though! Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] New wiki page for GB reversion requests
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Peter Millerpeter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote: I have create a wiki page for reversion requests for GB data and have added all Liam123s recent changesets to it with a reference to the discussions of the nature of his edits. I believe that this will be a suitable interface between mappers and the people who do the actual reversion which can now hopefully take place in this instance. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GB_revert_request_log I've made this into a table. Can anyone find any changesets that haven't been partially manually fixed already? Those will be the simplest to deal with. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Nicholas Barnesn...@thebarnesfamily.eu wrote: Shaun McDonald wrote: I have seen many roundabouts split up so that the bridges can be added properly, so started doing it myself some time ago. Which begs the question what is the point of tagging as way as a bridge? Because the bridge exists, and we want to map it. Other than what the rendered map looks like (and I keep hearing that we're not meant to be tagging for the renderer) You can tag anything you like so long as it's factually correct. I can't see the point of messing up It's not messing it up, it's adding more factually correct information which is widely accepted in OpenStreetMap as being useful. a perfectly formed roundabout with all parts set with the correct 'layer' tag when all you end up with is a roundabout which renders as badly as this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.46457lon=-1.70987zoom=15layers=0B00FFF If you look at every other layer it renders fine, so it's hardly a fundamental problem with the data. Surely it's perfectly obvious that if a road goes underneath another road, there must be a bridge involved. It took me literally milliseconds to think of a case where that's not true. Sorry for the rant, but I've just fixed two roundabouts where the layers were all set incorrectly at about the time somebody added those bus routes. Such are the joys of a wiki map. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Roundabout, ways and relationship policies
On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:33 PM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Lennard wrote: Brian Prangle wrote: Most public transport route maps do show the whole roundabout as part of the route - perhaps we should follow their example? If the return trip takes the same roads, eventually the bus will have navigated the whole roundabout, and then the whole roundabout *is* part of the route. As usual, I have a counter example - the bus station leads off the roundabout and comes on to it further on, so there is one section of roundabout that none of the 40 buses an hour that use it travel over! OTOH, some routes go round one-and-a-half times, so should I include that section twice in the relation? (No, I'm not being serious). Yes. Relations are ordered, so you can (and should) put in the exact sequence of ways that the route passes over. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] How big should a planet.osm-osm2pgsql database be?
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Aude (Kate)maps2w...@gmail.com wrote: Did you build a spatial index on any of the tables? That would add substantially to the database size, yet would improve performance and rendering. osm2pgsql takes care of the spatial indexes, whichever mode (RAM or slim) you choose. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Problem With Trails
On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:11 AM, Andrew Ayrea...@britishideas.com wrote: I have uploaded two sets of trails on two different days. The first set have rendered, but the second set hasn't. I'm stumped as to why. I'll give examples of a single trail from each set. This one works: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/37637417 Couple of things - your uuid isn't actually unique per-object, so you could probably call it an upload_id or similar. Both that and the attribution would be better off on the changeset, not every single uploaded way, since as soon as anyone tweaks the trails (adding more squiggles and whatnot) neither of them are appropriate any longer (they only have context on the specific version you uploaded). Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Create OSM mailing list talk-vi
If you want a new list for your country or language, send email to Michael Collinson, michael at osmfoundation dot org As it says at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists Cheers, Andy On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Ivan Garciacapisc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, in Hanoi, capital of Vietnam we are having a OSM Mapping party next month [1] and we'd like to have a mailing list address like talk-vi, is it possible some admin create it for us? Best Regards. [1]. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/HanoiMappingParty2009 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] railway=halt rendering
Mmmm text ordering. One of my least favourite problems to sort out. I've generally gone for the principle that all cycling information has to show up at some point, and in the case you link to it's the node network numbers that bump off the town names. I recently changed things around so that cycle route shields don't take off town names so it looks like I need to rethink node numbers as well. The problem is when there is a node number right beside the town name node they need to swap around at one zoom level or another. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Richard Mannrichard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: On the cycle map, I often find myself zooming in on the station to find out the name of a town, though perhaps it would be better if the city name rendered... http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.159lon=4.515zoom=11layers=00B0FTF Richard On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 9:25 AM, Anton Yuzhaninov cit...@citrin.ru wrote: Name of railway=halt rendered only on high zoom levels. In osmaprender it shown only at level 16, while it is useful to see name at zoom 13. As workaround for this railway=halt sometimes tagged as railway=station but it seems to be not correct: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_for_the_renderer Also name for railway=station shown only at zoom 13, while useful to see this name at level 11 or 12. -- Anton Yuzhaninov ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] how are runways related to an airport/aerodrome
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 7:21 AM, Madhav Vodnalamvodn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Guys In this Mapping Features documentation page, it says add only aeroway=runway tag to the way to denote it a runway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Drunway As a result, you will see runways as the following. I have not yet checked it out, but it looks like the only way is to traverse all the nodes. Does anybody have an alternative solution?. I think adding new relation can address this issue. There's no need for a new relations, that I can see. All the runways have latitudes and longitudes, as do the airports. Does anyone know of a runway that belongs to airport A but is closer to airport B? Even if that was to happen, it could easily be sorted by putting in the airport perimeters and working out which airport perimeter goes around the runway in question. In short: OSM is spatial, not everything needs to be a relation. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM data grant
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Richard Fairhurstrich...@systemed.net wrote: Russ Nelson wrote: SteveC wrote: Andy Allan wrote: [...] Wow, I knew CloudMade had developed some really cool OSM-related products, but I had no idea a Fast Acting Synchronised Legal-Talk Trolling Squadron was one of them. Keep up at the back! We've also got the Unnecessary-Ranting-On-IRC and Talking-Drivel-in-the-Pub Squadrons too. Oh. It appears I might be the common link. Ahem. Cheers, Andy ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] more OSM coming soon
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 10:56 PM, Ivo van den Maagdenbergivo.vdmaagdenb...@gmail.com wrote: What the reason is that I would get the 404.png is not fully clear to me. Glad that it's working for you. For an explanation of the above, it's not actually the tileserver that ever returns the 404.png. It's the javascript that controls this, and if the javascript can't get a tile for some reason, it swaps in the 404.png. So because your browser was blocking those tile requests, the javascript showed you the more osm soon picture. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM data grant
On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Russ Nelsonr...@cloudmade.com wrote: Yeah, I gotta admit that I'm wishing that we could protect the database as a database of geodata, whilst simultaneously allowing people to make derivative works that AREN'T a database of geodata, whilst also avoiding the TIGER trap of proprietary database improvements. Not sure that copyright allows for such fine control. If only we had a license that combined contract fusion, database fission and anti-copyright-matter together into something that does just that! All hail the ODbL! Cheers, Andy Perhaps we should be looking at our own behavior rather than the legal system? -- Russ Nelson - http://community.cloudmade.com/blog - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:RussNelson r...@cloudmade.com - Twitter: Russ_OSM - http://openstreetmap.org/user/RussNelson ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] full history of a way?
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Ben Laenenbenlae...@gmail.com wrote: MP wrote: So currently, if I want to know how was the way drawn in time T, I had to get history of the way, then find out which nodes were used by the way in time T, then get history from each of the nodes and pick appropriate node from the history, given the time. Then combine this into output XML which I can view Is there some automated tool that will do that? Now, what I really want to see here is something similar, but for relations: being able to ask for a certain version of a relation from the history and seeing how it looked back then with its members also like they were at that time. But remember that the nodes in way change, and the positions of the nodes change, without the version number of the relation incrementing. So you don't really want a system that shows you what the relation X version Y looks like, you want relation X timestamp T. Does anyone want to propose a moniker for point releases of objects i.e. all the variations in a object over time that occur between version increments on the object itself? Cheers, Andy If someone edits some roads nowadays and doesn't see that there are route relations on the roads you could end up easily with a situation where it's virtually impossible to know how the route was going, because ways were moved, merged, and deleted, and the list of way ids you get from the history is not helping a bit. The only option would then be to search for and contact the person who created that route there and hope that he's still active in OSM and still has his notes somewhere so he can retag that route. If not, then the only option to fix something is to resurvey, and that seems like a waist of time given that the information is in the database. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM 08 videos
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 9:46 PM, SteveCst...@asklater.com wrote: Hi Linked off of stateofthemap.org are the SOTM '08 videos: http://blog.signal2noise.ie/~eason/sotm08/ But they're incomplete and super, super, super slow to load. So does anyone know if the rest will be put up? I've offered assistance with this a few times over the last year, but so far to no avail. I'm keen to help with whatever needs doing - I have a postal address (for DVDs, tapes or whatnot), a computer capable of transcoding, a fast internet pipe and hosting and I'm willing to sort out all the videos if it means my own one sees the light of day. So whoever (eason?) has the originals now, feel free to contact me. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] import refuse !
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Stéphane Brunnerstephane.brun...@gmail.com wrote: Hello ! I just have an import failure. this is just because my holux m-241 with mtkbable returns me points like this : trkpt lat=nan lon=nan elenan/ele time1969-08-02T00:22:53Z/time /trkpt Invalid coordinate is ignored than invalid points like this should also be ignore ? Than where can I notify the bug ? http://trac.openstreetmap.org Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Lake Cowichan Now loaded (more of sample 092c area)
On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Marc Schützschue...@gmx.net wrote: I think the definitions really don't belong in the the data -- perhaps if you want to see them, your browser should look them up in some table rather than load from the data. +1 It should be sufficient to keep the canvec:UUID, source and attribution tags, and maybe a few of the other canvec:* (CMAS?). I don't see why we would need most of the others. If someone is really interested in them, they can look them up in Canvec using the UUID. created_by should be removed, too. This is better moved into the changeset. One could even argue that source belongs there, too. I'll chip in here too - for those who aren't digging into the data, here's a typical church: * canvec:generic_code: 2010009 * canvec:value_definition: A building serving as a place of worship or residence for Christian or non-Christian religious order. Religious building includes: convent; church; non-Christian place of worship; monastery. * canvec:datasetName: 092C16 * created_by: canvec2osm * canvec:VALDATE: 1989 * canvec:CODE: 2010390 * amenity: place_of_worship * canvec:PROVIDER: Federal * canvec:entity: Building - ( Bâtiment ) * canvec:entity_definition: Permanent walled and roofed construction. * canvec:Theme: BS Buildings and structures * source: CanVec_Import_2009 * canvec:value: Religious building - ( Établissement religieux ) * attribution: Natural Resources Canada * canvec:UUID: 7bd7174ca8664fff8fe60c11853ceb73 * canvec:Planimetric Accuracy (CMAS): 30 * canvec:source: CanVec_Feature_Catalogue_Edition_1_0_2.pdf That's a ridiculous number of uninteresting tags. So, so much of this isn't useful for OpenStreetMap. Keep: amenity canvec:UUID Move onto changeset, since they are identical for everything in that changeset: created_by source attribution Remove: Everything else. Really, the point of OSM isn't to keep a copy of the Canvec data - it can all be referenced externally for the 0.0001% of OSM users who are interested. Otherwise our DB is being filled with data that isn't needed for our project. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.org
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Eric Pritchette...@bitsofclever.com wrote: Hi Everyone, I recently donated openmaps.org to the Open Street Map Foundation. Everyone here is doing a great job with this project and I thought you could make better use of the domain. One thing needs to be said but doesn't seem to have been done properly here: Thanks Eric, that's very generous and much appreciated. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Removing gps-tracks
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:00 AM, Ed Loache...@loach.me.uk wrote: Ahh, yes I can :) But how do I find the one who uploaded the tracks? And what if they don't reply or aren't active any more? You could perhaps use Potlatch as an editor which only shows (I think) a certain number of most recent traces, so the old ones would expire at some point. Although if it is an area with not many tracks this might not help either. I personally use my own tracks for editing new stuff and all tracks for fine tuning existing stuff. I wouldn't use other peoples tracks for adding new stuff unless I'd been there and knew it really existed. It's a good approach. It's also worth thinking what other parameters might be useful to expand the GPX API - at the moment we just have a get everything in this area method. Maybe things like * Get everything tagged with bicycle * Get only things less than six months old * Let people suppress specific bogus GPX tracks * Get tracks only if they are on your friends list I'm not saying everything is a good idea, but it's worth thinking about all the possibilities, and *then* the devs can figure out what's possible and what might lead to privacy issues. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Frederik Rammfrede...@remote.org wrote: http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/three.jpg I don't find that too bad actually. But it has no map on the first page. I vehemently stated that we're about data, not about slippy maps, in the talk-de discussion; however we also need to show off. Ah yeah, those were the days when we didn't have a reliably working map on the front page, so we were looking for alternatives (you can just make out the map image is the old linework-on-landsat version. But that's not an issue any more. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Move the Map
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:56 PM, brendan barrettshogun...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps a compromise would be to have some links to other versions of the map If the layer selector was exposed by default, that would have a big impact. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Dartford Crossings
I should clarify - I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion, just your stated reasoning ;-) On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Andy Allangravityst...@gmail.com wrote: What? That page says nothing like that - it says you can use your bicycle for free, and someone will drive you and it across the crossing. Don't tell me you're proposing tagging it as a trunk road simply so that naive cycle routing algorithms* will take you that way? That's mis-tagging of the highest order. Cheers, Andy * == all of them count as naive for bicycle=free_and_carried_for_you_by_transit_authority On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Shaun McDonaldsh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk wrote: They should be trunk. There is an intentional gap in the M25 to allow routing of cyclists and pedestrians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartford_Crossing#Non-road_traffic Shaun On 12 Jun 2009, at 10:57, Ed Loach wrote: While scanning for more obvious liam123 changes, I spotted the QE2 bridge and the Dartford tunnel. The bridge and one direction of the two tunnels are tagged as A282(M) and the other tunnel as A282. All tagged highway=motorway. I don't believe they are motorway - I think from driving it that the M25 ends at the last junction north of the river and starts at the first junction south of the river after the toll booths. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.4653lon=0.2607zoom=14layers=B000FTF I was wondering whether they should all be retagged highway=trunk (and perhaps the (M) references lost)? Ed ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Overhauled the Garmin page
Good work, long overdue. I would make some suggestions: * The model name could have the links from the Detailed description, saving width * ... and could link to the right part of the page using # in the url * Most of the good and bad points will be the same for each eTrex unit, and so combining them would be useful * Colour-coding good and bad things is useful using template:yes and its cousins * Most importantly, that table needs info in it ASAP otherwise it's one of those many good idea but only partly-implemented things which are littered around the wiki - i.e. where someone comes up with a plan but doesn't follow through on finishing the job :-) Cheers, Andy 2009/6/5 Peter Dörrie peter.doer...@googlemail.com: Hi everybody, I made an overhaul of the Garmin-Page [1] and moved all the different device series to their own subpages. I also introduced a proposal for an overview table for individual devices. Please feel free to comment and change everything. Peter [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Garmin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Freemap (OSM for walkers) - increased coverage
On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jonathan Bennettopenstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk wrote: Ed Loach wrote: Have you a wiki page to say how to tag for things to render under each category? Tag... Render... BURN HIM! BURN! :-) Gah, the common misconception rears up again. Repeat after me: It is perfectly OK to tag for the renderer It's not on to tag incorrectly for the renderer Or if you like: OK = Hey Andy I see you render NCN mileposts. What tags make them get rendered since I want to put mileposts in and get them to show up. BAD = Hey Andy I like the pink industrial areas and want my flowerbed to show up pink too. What tags do you render for industrial areas? Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] Getting Good Tracks With eTrex
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: Is there anything else I need to know about getting good tracks? Lambertus posted some tips on logging to this list in April: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-April/036015.html +1 to what Lambertus said. Log to the SD card continuously. Oh, and turn off snap to road as well, if you haven't done so already. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] maxspeed field - what units should we use. etc
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:13 AM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: you may well find that someone else goes round systematically changing them to km/h and puts in maxspeed:mph - that's what's happened to most of the ones I've done. Call them out publicly. This kind of thing is a PITA, and we need to make sure it doesn't happen. And letting them know such behaviour isn't helpful is a good start. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] How to tag small city alley ?
On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: - Zitierten Text ausblenden - Greg Troxel wrote: I'd agree that service isn't quite right, if that's the front of th= e buildings. But similarly residential isn't right either (I guess we= all think of that as something with pavements/sidewalks). highway=3Dunclassified for now (and throw a fixme=3D tag explaining th= e situation on for good measure) =20 nah, unclassified seems less correct than residential, as this IS a residential street and just the width is less than what you would expect (but this applies equally to unclassified). My rationale for suggesting that being that there's clearly some confusion on what classification it should be. Well highway=unclassified is actually a specific classification, highway=road is for when we don't know the classification. Don't shoot the messenger. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-GB] Reminder - London Hack Weekend this weekend
Hi Everyone, As a reminder, the London Hack Weekend kicks off on Friday evening with a planning meeting (heh) in the pub, and coding on both Saturday and Sunday. Full details and sign-up on the wiki at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_Hack_Weekend If you can't make it in person - IRC will be the place to be. Any questions? Give me a shout. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town?
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 22 May 2009, Andy Allan wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up area inside one relation, and when there are roads inside it with another speed limit, tag those ways with maxspeed. Jesus. * Anyone who doesn't know what ST_Intersects means should go find out. And I mean by writing an application, not by using google * Anyone who thinks that processing relations is magically wonderful should go reimplement the translucent colouring on the cyclemap without any overlap artifacts. * Anyone who thinks that GIS Stuff is too complex for portable devices should think long and carefully about the word pre-processing and c.f. osm2pgsql, mkgmap, XAPI and every other tool we have for that already. Oh, and write an application that uses them, not just read the wiki. This has to be one of the absolute worst discussions for people asserting things they actually have no experience of doing. It's cringe-worthily painful to read. Not sure what your comment is doing here. We're trying to get information about ways into OSM in the first place here, so for example the map in you gps map knows after preprocessing the OSM data how fast you can go on each road. So this is a discussion about how to store that data so it is not too difficult, can be easily maintained in future and doesn't have obvious flaws. So what your rendering stuff is doing here, no idea. We're not trying to render anything here. See if you think that my stuff was about rendering, then you are missing the point. It's all about data processing. Even the bit about translucent colouring is not about rendering (that's easy - opacity=0.7) it's about *processing* (unwinding relations into linear features). Again, you seem to be saying I don't understand your point so *you* must be wrong. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Highways tagging vs Polygon
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: As stated above, I'd certainly expect that it would be easier for #989431 to tag DE:rural info I missed the bit where DE:rural was proposed. How many roads outside of Germany are in Germany? How many roads in Germany are not in Germany? Surely the DE: prefix is redundant? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town?
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote: A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up area inside one relation, and when there are roads inside it with another speed limit, tag those ways with maxspeed. Jesus. * Anyone who doesn't know what ST_Intersects means should go find out. And I mean by writing an application, not by using google * Anyone who thinks that processing relations is magically wonderful should go reimplement the translucent colouring on the cyclemap without any overlap artifacts. * Anyone who thinks that GIS Stuff is too complex for portable devices should think long and carefully about the word pre-processing and c.f. osm2pgsql, mkgmap, XAPI and every other tool we have for that already. Oh, and write an application that uses them, not just read the wiki. This has to be one of the absolute worst discussions for people asserting things they actually have no experience of doing. It's cringe-worthily painful to read. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Highways tagging vs Polygon
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net wrote: Am I missing something, No, you're not. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Highways tagging vs Polygon
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Richard Bullock rb...@cantab.net wrote: Am I missing something, No, you're not. I should expand that statement. No, you're not missing something, it's a fairly straightforward problem and your solution is fairly straightforward and practical. However, there are some people who don't know how they would process the osm data, and instead of thinking that their knowledge, skills or experience in geo-data is insufficient, they automatically think that because they can't figure it out then there's something wrong with the way that everyone else is doing things. And so we start inventing new ideas with sufficient buzzwords (I hereby patent the semantic-relation) and talk about them to death. I guess that's why it's the talk@ mailing list and not the do@ ? Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] MK Redways
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: I notice from the rerendered cycle map layer, that some of these have been tagged as a local cycle network Redway http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.0473lon=-0.7524zoom=13layers=00B0FTF Should we do this with all the Redways? Not using the lcn_ref tag, please. It's hardly an alphanumerical identifier tag. If you put them in as a relation, then both the name and/or ref tags are respected by the cycle map. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town?
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:44 AM, Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com wrote: hi, currently there is a discussion on the german list about tagging speed limits respectively different zones. as there are implied also other things than maxspeed there are proposed three default zones, derived from the signs standing at every border crossing point: a) motorway: that's very clear, therea are no or very high limits. b) city areas with limited speed and some restrictions c) everything else, mostly out of town. so this questions goes primarily to the native english speakers: what would be the right term for a value for these zones? Motorway / Urban / Rural is the most translatable, IMHO. I'm not certain, but I think that it's Motorway / Built-Up / National in official language. Cheers, Andy a) motorway? this one would be very clear I think. b) in_town? place? urban? it's the thing we call geschlossene ortschaft in germany, which inludes everything from very small villages to really large cities (bounded by yellow squared signs in germany). c) out_of_town? rural? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: zones for motorway/in town/outof town?]
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 2:26 PM, marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Wed, 20 May 2009 14:04:36 +0100, Radomir Cernoch
radomir.cern...@gmail.com wrote:
MP píše v St 20. 05. 2009 v 14:16 +0200:
I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that
will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable
way?
Yes, surely! My personal idea of best solution is to use the Semantic
wiki, because it provides both machine-readable and human-readable
format in one place.
Agreed. This sounds like a very good idea.
I think it sounds like a terrible idea.
A) We have a geo-database for geographic information
B) We have a wiki for project-support information
Why would this particular geo-data not live in the Geodatabase?
Let's take the very first bit of the example:
country(cz) {
How can I tell if a particular way is in the country cz? Maybe I
need a lookup table that gives me a list of coordinates to specificy
the boundary of that country. Should this be in the wiki too? Do we
have somewhere better for storing lists of coordinates?
So let's make the assumption we have an object (I'm guessing a
relation would be handy) for each country explaining where it is. Now
if only there was a way of assigning attributes to the country to hold
information that applied to that country. Geez, maybe we could allow
tags on relations?
Hmmm. Or maybe we should ditch the whole geo-db idea and just put
everything into a wonderful Semantic Wiki.
Cheers,
Andy
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Fwd: Re: zones for motorway/in town/outof town?]
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Radomir Cernoch radomir.cern...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, if only I knew that the idea would arouse so intense emotions! Ok, now I know that I should be more careful with the word semantic next time. Heh. It's mainly that I have a reflexive preference for geo-databases whenever I see the concept of spatial-intersection tests. And a dislike for putting machine-readable code into the wiki, semantic or not. I do not mind putting all this into the relations for each country. However the question is, how complicated the whole system will be. Don't over-plan for edge cases! Make the simple things simple and the complicated things possible. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Reverting Changes....
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Chris Fleming m...@chrisfleming.org wrote: In just spotted a pile of changes that someone made that seem to have done more harm than good: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/1008885 What's the current thinking on un-doing changes; is it worth contacting the person involved, Checking if anything useful was done? If it's not deliberate vandalism (e.g. someone writing OSM Suxxors across the north Atlantic) then contact them first, offer assistance etc. Better to offer to help them fix it than to fix it first and talk later. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Czech address system
2009/5/15 Radomír Černoch radomir.cern...@gmail.com: To put the 'alternatenubmer' into 'housenumber' field, I think you proved Shaun's point about misspellings ;-) Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] MK mapping party
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) ajrli...@googlemail.com wrote: I'm expecting to organise another 6 parties through the rest of this year so people's preference for locations please shout up again. Scotland! I was just browsing around on z10 (i.e. the last level before vmap0 built-up areas disappear) and was somewhat dismayed to find that even towns big enough for vmap0 don't even have a place=town node in them yet (c.f. Mallaig)! The main cities are progressing, but there's lots of areas that could do with some TLC. South of the M8 - the Ardrossan/Prestwick/Kilmarnok/Ayr/Troon arc, Stranraer, Dumfries, Berwick (OK technically that's in England) North of the M8 - some places have started but might need some help, like Falkrik Stirling and Perth Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] gdalwarp question
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Torsten Mohr tm...@s.netic.de wrote: Hello Jukka, no, thanks for your help, any hint and discussion is really appreciated. Sorry, I misunderstood a bit what you were going to do. It may well be that for Mapnik you'll need to reproject raster image first. I do not much about Mapnik and while a have been using gdal utilities very much I don't believe I have ever needed to create output in Google projection. By first look what you have done does make sense. You can make a couple of further tests: I solved the issue now in a different way. Based on information on wikipedia about mercaator projection i did the reprojection of the blue marble myself. It took quite a while to execute, but the reprojection itself worked quite fine. Now the borders (shoreline_300) are exactly on the borders of the continents and islands on the blue marble. The relevant part of the script i use is attached below, if anybody is interested please write me an email (i use an own library to handle the images themselves, that part needs to be adapted to e.g. PyImage). Thank you all for providing me help, i hope the script below is of value to anybody. As a point of comparison, I did the following last weekend (coincidently whilst you were battling with the same issues). 1) Download GeoTiff images from http://www.unearthedoutdoors.net/global_data/true_marble/download 2) Remember from bitter experience that mapnik doesn't do on-the-fly reprojection 3) Gdalwarp them into spherical mercator. 4) Remember from bitter experience that gdalwarp messes up the geotiff coordinates (i.e. they come out as non-spherical mercator and then confuse the gdal plugin for mapnik) 5) Calculate the extents of the image using gdalinfo on the orginals (using mapnik prj.Forward code in a simple python script) 6) use mapniks' raster plugin with lox/loy/hix/hiy set using the output from 5 7) ... fiddle around a bit with layers and coastlines ... 8) Admire imagery and OSM combined at http://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=4lat=42.32525lon=3.33555layers=B000 :-) Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering of footways with bicycle=yes
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Hillsman, Edward hills...@cutr.usf.edu wrote: I assume that highway=cycleway is a path developed outside a road right-of-way, primarily for cycling (and the topic that you have been discussing in this thread). The illustration on the Map Features page lacks enough surrounding context to indicate whether the tag might be suitable for other kinds of cycling infrastructure. If I am correct, then what would be the difference between this and cycleway=track? cycleway=track is a property of another road (e.g. highway=primary) to show that there is an adjacent path for cycling. If you were to add the required nodes and a second way, that second way would be highway=cycleway. So cycleway=track is a shorthand that people use when they don't want to put in two ways. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway actually explains it quite well. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql and proper/legacy mercator
On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Francois Van Der Biest francois.vanderbi...@camptocamp.com wrote: Hi list, osm2pgsql --help says: -m|--merc: Store data in proper spherical mercator (default) -M|--oldmerc: Store data in the legacy OSM mercator format I'm wondering what's the difference between those two srs. Which one is epsg:900913 (aka epsg:3785 http://www.spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/3785/) ? My experience (importing an osm dump into postgis, then exporting to shapefiles) would let me think that the legacy OSM mercator format is epsg:3785. So, what's the other one ? I'm moderately sure that --oldmerc was when someone in OSM got the maths slightly wrong. Use -m for (as it says) proper spherical mercator aka epsg:900913 Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering of footways with bicycle=yes
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: I'd support that highway=path needs to be rendered in the cycle map layer, especially now it's becoming clearer how it's being used Every time it gets discussed, it becomes *less* clear how it's being used to me. And I'm mightily concerned that the 10 people discussing it on these lists might be in no way representative of the 14,990 people who are mapping paths and aren't in these discussions. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] What is OSM and what isn't?
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Alan Wright alanwright.a...@googlemail.com wrote: I think OpenStreetMap needs a shop window - perhaps a different website altogether. I disagree. OSM doesn't need a faked-up website to show what can be done. There's plenty of real places using the data for real applications, and that's waaay better than anything that is conceived just for showing-off. OSM needs two aspects - a place which is a hive of mapping activity (i.e. for mappers) and places of OSM consumption. IMnotveryHO the consumption stuff has been left to others, and rightfully so. If we want to show off OSM to consumers, then lets point them to awesome places that are using OSM data. And then on the other front, which boils down to what should openstreetmap.org be focussed on, that's everything that's needed for mapping activity. Like a ship's bridge or a surgical theatre or a well-stocked toolbench it should have everything close to hand that mappers need to get their jobs done, and do it well. Maps to see what's there. Tools to edit the data and inspect it. Ways to communicate with other mappers. Calendars to organise parties. Blogs to keep the community bound together. One small part of that (in the inspecting the data part) is routing. I don't want a journey planner on osm.org (unless it's for getting to the mapping parties :-) ) but I do need a way to check the connectivity and correctness of the mapping data. And not as some hidden extra in an editor I don't happen to use - it should be somewhere close to hand. We started with a map and then developed maplint, nonames, keepright et al, so we should start with point-to-point routing and then figure out how we can improve things - with the primary purpose being to help mappers. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Turn restrictions ambiguity
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:13 AM, kaerast kaer...@qvox.org wrote: Why do we need to know which way has priority? Yes it is nice to know some times, but no other maps show this and it just isn't necessary. It tends to be slower roads which you need to give way on, and these are already given a lower priority in routing algorithms. Imagine a grid of residential streets, and you're going from one corner to the opposite corner. There are two long-axis roads, one of which has priority at every intersection, the other parallel option has a give-way at every intersection. It's pretty obvious that you want to know priority so the routing algorithm picks the correct street. Classification and distance are otherwise identical. | | | | -S- | | | | -|---|---|---F- | | | | Also, if you're barrelling through the countryside it's nice to be told what to do at junctions. But not every time there's a little side road. So again knowing how long this road has priority (continue for 3 miles) or not (in 100 yards, cross the junction) is important. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wrong scale in slippy map
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: 2009/4/23 Jacek Konieczny jaj...@jajcus.net: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 08:23:16AM +, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: not mean that these countries are twice as large in the real life. Scale bar values, if presented in meters/feet, should be adjusted according to latitude. Even then it cannot be correct for the whole map, but showing the corrrect scale for the middle latitude of a would perhaps be the best compromise. If we could get two scales, at the top and at the bottom of the map, then it would give us even more correct information. But one scale will be enough, when correct. Incorrect meter/feet scale is quite useless and probably better would to not use such scale at all. Call me stupid but are we not going to need a different scale bar for North - South as well. Its like putting a Standard 1024x768 display on a wide screen monitor everything gets stretched. You could have more tiles at the equator than at the poles. Dreaming that the world can be stretched to fit on a square is always going have a problem somewhere. Ideally you want a map so where a fixed distance is a fixed number of pixels on screen and angles are correct at least for the bit of the world you are currently looking at This should be doable at least for higher zoom levels, How you do this I'm not 100% sure. If you want it done right, then your scale bar has detatchable end points. You drag one end of the scale bar to one end of the feature, the other to the other, and then the scale bar warps itself into a great-circle curve and tells you how long it is. Everything else is a compromise :-) Cheers, Andy PS altering the scale bar whilst panning is possible, it's something we've done in our Web Maps Lite javascript API here at CloudMade. See http://maps.cloudmade.com for an example. But it's still an approximation, especially where the distances are significantly different at different parts of the viewport (it can only give one scale at a time!) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-be] IMPORTANT - OSM API upgrade - Upgrade finished
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: Ben Laenen wrote: The server is now back into a usable state, if you want to start mapping again. Little warning though: relations are completely broken with Potlatch. Don't do anything with relations in there until it's fixed or you may completely destroy existing relations. In fact I think it's safer to not use Potlatch at all for now because you even can't see if you might break something... This is all a myth sent out by the anti-potlatch people /funny On a serious note: I assume most users don't read the mailinglists. If it is such a large problem, editting with potlatch should be disabled for as long as this is not fixed. I wouldn't recommend that as a course of action - it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Given that we're keeping the histories then fixing up a few broken relations is much less bad than preventing all editing through a major editor for a few days. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [josm-dev] Commit message not empty
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: more people (I speculate) are leaving their Potlatch comments empty. Perhaps I should RTFM (or RTFW), but I couldn't see anywhere obvious to put a comment (and doing a quick wiki search am no clearer). Checking my post-upgrade edits you can tell the three I did with JOSM and the one I did with Potlatch by the comments: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/EdLoach/edits I like Ed(not me)'s suggestion that it would be good to be able to edit these (our own) comments. You can revise your changeset up until the point that it's closed. When the changeset is closed that's the indication to anti-vandalism/review tools that it's done and not going to vary. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Any chance of getting RSS/Atom feeds for those changeset/history pages?
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com wrote: Getting RSS/Atom feeds for these seems to be the logical next step. (I prefer Atom 1.0 + GeoRSS extension instead of RSS 2.0, by the way.) I assume that it'd be *extremely* easy to do this: just reformat the current changeset list page's output. You aren't the first to ask for this, but maybe you can go further and be the first to actually log a trac ticket for this enhancement request? http://trac.openstreetmap.org Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] more changeset question
2009/4/22 Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es: El Miércoles, 22 de Abril de 2009, maning sambale escribió: Thanks! seems reasonable for my regular editing session. What about bulk imports? There is one script to bulk-upload stuff in SVN (apps/utils/import/bulk_upload_06). It does split big files into smaller chunks. Expect it to be buggy and untested. However, for really large datasets, I'm partial to running osmosis directly on the DB server. It better create appropriately sized changesets in any case! Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Generating Mapnik Images to epsg:27700 (British National Grid) Projection
Well, the purpose of the forward projection code is to take the ll
variable as lat long and then use the defined projection to calculate
what the projected c0 and c1 points are in projected coordinates. So
you should leave the ll in degrees.
But it does sound like the projection string isn't working. I'd first
test in postgis whether you can project in the fashion you describe.
And not all projections are possible in one step - for example, you
need to project twice to get from spherical mercator on disk to
latlon, so you end up with things like this:
quote
Can't go 900913 - 4326, but you can do 900913 - 3395, and 3395 - 4326. Gah!
select astext(transform(transform(way, 3395), 4326)) from
planet_osm_point where name like '%utney%';
/quote
I'd try messing with postgis to get good OSGB results as somewhere to start.
Cheers,
Andy
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Oliver O'Brien
m...@oliverobrien.co.uk wrote:
Have you tried using the full PROJ4s string for EPSG:27700 rather than using
+init?
e.g. follow the Proj4js link at:
http://spatialreference.org/ref/epsg/27700/
I'm wondering whether your installation knows the settings for 27700.
Certainly I've had a similar problem with WebMercator.
Certainly you definitely want to use metres rather than km or degrees when
specifying the bounding box.
Your 20km difference is probably because your installation is not
recognising +init=EPSG:27700, defaulting to WGS84 (which uses a different
world-shape than OSGB36 used for the BNG) and then drawing a map containing
a few metres of ocean around 0deg N, 0deg E.
The Ireland/Norwich problems suggest something more complicated is going
wrong too, but try this and see what happens.
Ollie
-Original Message-
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 10:19:05 +0100
From: Kev js1982 o...@kevswindells.eu
Subject: [Talk-GB] Generating Mapnik Images to epsg:27700 (British
National Grid) Projection
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Message-ID:
96af97fa0904220219i6ab35e3awa779475fe0592...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this (I can't find a better one).
I am trying to generate some tiles to generate a set of tiles to cover the
British Isles in the OSGB Projection (epsg:27700)
The files I have use an quite possibly unique naming schema (we are
intending to use them as a drop in replacement for some OS supplied tiles
when the licence expires, extending coverage to Northern Ireland* in the
process) - an example of which is
map-n44-e36-s42-w34-px250.png the numbers are the meters
north/east of the OSGB origin (centered on western edge of the city of
Preston in this example) so it should be relatively easy to generate the
tiles - but I am coming unstuck at generating the images.
Modifying generate_image.py and using (chopped a bit for brevity - full code
at http://kjs.me.uk/wiki/Talk:Mapnik , the main Mapnik page contains my
installation notes)
prj = Projection(+proj=merc +a=6378137 +b=6378137 +lat_ts=0.0 +lon_0=0.0
+x_0=0.0 +y_0=0 +k=1.0 +units=m +nadgri...@null +no_defs +over)
ll = (-6.5, 49.5, 2.1, 59)
c0 = prj.forward(Coord(ll[0],ll[1]))
c1 = prj.forward(Coord(ll[2],ll[3]))
bbox = Envelope(c0.x,c0.y,c1.x,c1.y)
m.zoom_to_box(bbox)
gives me a map of the British Isles which generates okay :)
Changing the projection line to
prj = Projection('+init=epsg:27700')
gives me a map centered some 500km or so south of Ghana on the equator
Thinking I need to use Geocodes (aka Eastings and Northings) changing the ll
line to
ll = (0,0,50,50)
This gives me a box of ocean, as does using km instead of meters
ll = (0,0,500.000,500.000)
Various combinations of changing the bbox and ll result in getting either
Ghana or ocean - I guess i'm doing somet slightly wrong somewhere along the
way.
Taking the Eastings/Northings and converting to Latitude/Longitude means
they don't quite match (Holyhead ends up around 20km north of it's original
location for example) and the tiles don't join properly - this (as you would
expect) results in noticable tearing of the map, particulally on the west
coast of Ireland (for example Limerick is shown twice) and results in the
town of Norwich disappearing on the east coast of England.
Does anyone know/have a working example of how to generate a single tile
using generate_image.py (or based on) based on the geocodes that bound the
tile?
* Yes I know the Island is on a different grid but all our points use Great
Britain geocodes, which means negative eastings.
Thanks
Kev :o)
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Re: [OSM-talk] We're back
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Steve Hill st...@nexusuk.org wrote: The changeset stuff looks really good, and I note the welcome addition of a comment field. Is there any way of getting an RSS feed (or similar) of recent changesets and their comments within a specific bounding box? That'd be really good to get an at-a-glance idea of what the latest changes in your area are all about. Future work, please file a trac ticket (although I'm not sure you're the first to ask :-) ) Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] designation and designated tags - support in renderers?
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: Hello everyone, I'm planning to do a wholesale conversion of all my surveyed footpaths, bridleways etc to use the designation (designation=public_footpath, designation=public_bridleway etc) or designated (foot=designated, horse=designated) etc, and at the same time convert all my highway=footway/bridleway/byway to highway=path/track/service/residential (as applicable). However before doing this I want to make sure the renderers support them. The cyclemap doesn't, as has been stated already. It doesn't recognise much of the complex tagging e.g. highway=footway + horse=yes or suchlike. e.g. highway=path,designation=public_bridleway OR highway=path,foot=designated,horse=designated should show as dashed green lines in Mapnik, just as highway=bridleway is. If I contributed some Mapnik rules for this would people be willing to incorporate them in the main Mapnik renderer? I lean towards osmosis TagTransform plugin rules, to keep everything downstream simpler and renderer-independant. If, for example, I decided that highway=cycleway was equivalent to highway=path, cycleway=designated then I don't want to restate that equivalence four or five times in the mapnik rules. And whichever ruleset I came up with I'd like to use on my mkgmap setup too. Cheers, Andy Thanks, Nick ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] the ref:color schema
2009/4/19 Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es: Do you really think we can work that network-color table out, and make software that fits into osm2pgsql to derive the shields? Remember that it doesn't need to be osm2pgsql to do this - large-scale .osm manipluation can be done with osmosis, and see also the TagTransform plugin. Overall, I'd rather see a lookup table of colours external to the osm data, and then have a lookup at some point in the rendering chain. It seems like a whole load of duplication of effort (and source of errors) to tag every way, and a colour-reliant renderer would need to cope with missing colour data so would end up needing the lookup table anyway. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging dangerous areas
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 6:33 PM, Matt Amos zerebub...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:31 PM, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote: after the wembley mapping party last year i heard suggestions of a locals=angry tag. maybe we should expand that to include locals=violent or locals=heavily_armed? What happened at the Wembley mapping party? andy and steve independently attempted to map the same road on a council estate but both decided it might not be a wise idea. no violence was done i think, just evil stares. andy actually tagged it locals=angsty, rather than angry, but there is a precedent :-) http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27794700 I feel like I'm debating a point of order in a student union ( :-) ), but the encampment^Wstreet which Steve8 and I didn't want to map was this one, a short distance away: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27693507 Also, if you check on the wiki, the locals=angsty is defined as implying the tag mapper=slightly_lazy and is often used on hot afternoons that bring out the worst in British council estate congregation behaviour. The tag doesn't apply during rain or winter conditions, but applies doubly shortly after football matches... Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Possibly using highway=path for country footpaths
On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Al Girling acgirl...@gcguk.demon.co.uk wrote: Why footway exists but a tag for public footpaths doesn't is frankly beyond me. Because you're reading too much into the name. All the highway tags were initially made up to end in '...way'. So forget you're ideas of what a footway or a footpath or a sidewalk or pavement or path or pathway or driveway or towpath (or freeway) mean outside OSM, since they don't correspond to OSM highway types, even in the cases where the name is used. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] more OSM coming soon
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk wrote: This is the weekly re-import of the data, when the render daemon is stopped for the duration. I'm not entirely sure that it is, especially since I'd have expected it to restart yesterday morning (or maybe this morning - again, not sure when Jon does things). But looking at the munin graphs [1] I can see that the eth0 load is high, the CPU has been flat out earlier today, and the load average is spiking pretty high too. Mod_tile has a load average cutout where it stops trying to render tiles in the few seconds it normally gives renderd to respond (hence the usual few seconds before the coming soon logo appears. When that threshold is exceeded, mod_tile responds immediately with a 404 (and the osm.org Javascript shows the coming soon logo straight away). I don't know what the threshold is on tile.openstreetmap.org So a fair amount of speculations - the server is busy, but not that much more busy than it normally gets during the week, and I think it's triggering the mod_tile overload protection. Cheers, Andy [1] http://munin.openstreetmap.org/openstreetmap/tile.openstreetmap.html ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL comments from Creative Commons
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:36 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: On 22 Mar 2009, at 06:08, 80n wrote: The complexity arguments are largely superfluous. [...] I get in my car every day and drive to work without knowing how the engine management system works but it's not a 'show stopper'. I disagree with you there Steve. The problem is that *we're the guys building the engine*, and yet we don't know how the engine management system works. Whilst it doesn't need to be simple enough for *everyone* to understand (you can do the I trust him and he knows what he's talking about approach that you take with your car), when I can't get my head around how the license impacts the OpenCycleMap operations (am I running a collective or derived db? Do I need to release PostGIS dumps? Can I CC-BY-SA license the tiles?) then there is a complexity problem, and it probably needs more serious addressing than dismissing it as superfluous. Cheers, Andy ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Builk upload OSM files greater than 2megs with JOSM
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 7:17 PM, Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Some of my sample files are greater than 2 megs, and so i have a hard time trying to load the file onto JOSM.? My approach for uploading all that data once i get it into JOSM is simple. I would select the 1/2 of it, then 1/2 again and delete. Thus, left with only 1/4 of the data for the upload process. Once it all get uploaded.. i would open the file again (make the other one invisable), and only select another 1/4 of the data, then upload again. It wont matter if the areas overlapped, as the system recognizes that the data already exists. ... it's the same method as if your doing alot of editing... and you dont want to get a timeout error, so you only upload a part of your edits at a time. Does anyone know if there is a different way to preview these large .osm files before uploading? You might want to look into bulk-upload.pl - which is much better for handling huge uploads. If you hop on over to the dev list and ask about running imports from a local server (i.e. one in the same datacentre as the OSM db server) you'll get reasonable performance benefits from lower latency between each node/way/relation transaction. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapnik: strange prioritisation/appearance of place names
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Adam Schreiber sa...@clemson.edu wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 8:08 AM, Elena of Valhalla elena.valha...@gmail.com wrote: finding a working algorithm that uses only objective data and is always able to select the proper item to print would be excellent, but also probably not feasible in real life. Population? People can vote importance with their feet. Seems reasonable to me, even though it's not going to be perfect. The issue comes with the lack of ordering in the text layer in osm.xml - effectively, objects are picked at random and their names written, and if there's no space left for it it gets dropped. It's painfully obvious on the cycle map that there's problems with name ordering - e.g. if you have cycle routes in your town, a shield on the route is likely to kick off the town name. So the map tends towards labelling towns with no cycle routes! I started looking at fixing it yesterday, but layering on such complex maps is, well, complex. Layer name=text status=on srs=+proj=merc +a=6378137 +b=6378137 +lat_ts=0.0 +lon_0=0.0 +x_0=0.0 +y_0=0 +k=1.0 +units=m +nadgri...@null +no_defs +over StyleNametext/StyleName Datasource Parameter name=typepostgis/Parameter Parameter name=passwordmartyn/Parameter Parameter name=hostlocalhost/Parameter Parameter name=port5432/Parameter Parameter name=userpostgres/Parameter Parameter name=dbnameosm/Parameter Parameter name=tableplanet_osm_point/Parameter Parameter name=estimate_extentfalse/Parameter Parameter name=extent-20037508,-19929239,20037508,19929239/Parameter /Datasource /Layer The table that mapnik selects from for point-text labels could be ordered by descending population. But it might need a bit more cleverity, since on the cycle map I've adapted it to take into consideration the capacity of cycle parking. I suspect steve8 will need to look into making separate layers for separate labelling needs - a places-text layer ordered by descending population, pubs ordered by price_of_lager_in_pounds_per_pint ascending, and so on. Alternatively, osm2pgsql's z-ordering code could be adapted to all the circumstances, and a simple order by z_order added in mapnik, ala the roads layers - i.e. the ordering logic could go in either osm2pgsql or the mapnik layer definitions. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Clarifying tagging for footway/cycleway etc
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk wrote: So if you have a shared use cycle/footpath where the bicycle and people are above each other white on a blue sign I'd say that highway=cycleway, foot=designated, cycle=designated and highway=footway, foot=designated, cycle=designated are equivalent, and the only difference is in how they render. I tend to sway towards cycleway if they are part of a signposted cycle route, or if there is a preferred cycle route sign anywhere, or footway otherwise. For footpaths on housing estates I'll probably have highway=footway, foot=yes and also add cycle=no where there is a no cycling sign. This designated thing really hasn't been well thought through. How do I tag the following? * A purpose built, private cycle path * A purpose built, permissive foot path * A path built for cyclists, with a legal right for pedestrians and cyclists highway=path, bicycle=designated+no? highway=path, foot=designated+yes? highway=path, bicycle=designated+yes, foot=yes? or maybe highway=cycleway, bicycle=no highway=footway, foot=permissive highway=cycleway, foot=yes, bicycle=yes Now I'm not saying that cycleway/footway is a great tagging scheme, but I sure wish that that the designated thing had been thought through a bit more. Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] immutable=yes Fwd: DEC Lands
On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Lars Aronsson wrote: Here's an idea: Let's make OpenStreetMap the free wiki world map. It's never going to work. How can you expect people to trust a map that can be edited by anyone? It's all right, when we find enough other immutable datasets to cover the remaining parts of the world, the entire community can give up and go home. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] immutable=yes Fwd: DEC Lands
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Mar 16, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Ted Mielczarek wrote: If you can't edit it it shouldn't be in the OSM db. It's easy enough to set up your own map render with any external data you want. Bzzzr, wrong. There is substantial value to renderers to only have to work off one API for map data. If the data is in OSM, then immediately every map renderer has access to it. If, say, someone finds a new data source but declines to dd it to OSM, then EVERY RENDERER needs to add support for that file format and metadata in order to use it. Umm, no. You're wrong on this case, and I speak from running one of the main OSM renderers. Ted is correct. Sorry, Ted, but you're being driven by ideology here, not by good programming practise. Ideology is for ideots. No he's not, and plenty of other people are in agreement here. It's a question of the point of having a community in OSM (vs a large collection of uneditable datasets), and you're arguing about technical stuff. Technical comes second, community first. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-GB] Free National Grid Vector Layers for gas and electricity?
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Chris Hill chillly...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Yes, I read their TCs but it never hurts to actually ask, they might just grant us the right to use their data. It doesn't cost much to ask. Absolutely, and it's a good attitude to just plough on and ask. But I'll give good odds on it being OS derived :-) Cheers, Andy ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Legal review by ITO World's lawyer
On Fri, Mar 13, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Peter Miller peter.mil...@itoworld.com wrote: I have put the legal review we have received for the current license draft on the wiki. I have organised it so that we can comment and discuss the issues after each of the points on the wiki page if appropriate. I can't say that have understood all the points raised yet and their possible implications, but I thought it would be good to start getting more brains on it straight away. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ITO_World/ODbL_Licence_0.9_legal_review_for_ITO Can I suggest that we spend tomorrow and the weekend discussing it and then I can seek clarification on any key points on Monday from our lawyer and we can then put the key points to the OKM and to our own foundation lawyers. This is great. I especially like sections 5 and 6, and in general most of their points resonate with my feelings about the ODbL. But in any case, I extend my thanks to you and ITO World for commissioning this review and making it public. Cheers, Andy ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] place=island rendering
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Ted Mielczarek t...@mielczarek.org wrote: I've noticed that there's a GNIS import going on in the USA recently, and one of the types of POIs being imported are islands, which are tagged place=island. Of course, the GNIS database contains some very tiny islands, but Mapnik renders place=island up to z10. For example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.69lon=-75.353zoom=10layers=B000FTFT Allentown is a city with a population of 100,000. Eves Island appears to be about 20 feet long, yet the label for it is nearly the size of Allentown. :) Someone on IRC suggested that place=islet might be a more correct tagging for these, and the map features page for place=island seems to agree: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Disland I am mainly thinking of small coastal or river islands which may have a small settlement or a farm--this indicates that tiny little patches of land weren't the original target of this tag. Thoughts? Interesting issue. The techy in me thinks that tagging the island (tag the way) rather than a point may help, since that allows data consumers (e.g. renderers) to calculate the size of the island (and even, perhaps in future, the longest diagonal to write the name at an angle). Defaulting to putting the name in the middle of the polygon is easy and done already with buildings. We have a similar area-based thing with way_area in mapnik rendering rules already. But that might be overcomplicating things, I'm not sure. It would allow renderers to bring in islands based on how big they were, whereas making a distinction between island/islet might still have problems. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Questions from GSoC 2009 Application
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, I'm working on the application for GSoC 2009 and have a couple questions that others might be able to answer more effectively than I can: 1. It appears that they only allow projects with licenses approved by the opensource.org site [1]. Is our current license up there? *Software* licenses, not data licenses. It's a software project. So we're fine with whichever license is applied to JOSM/rails_port/whatever since they are all* OSI approved. 2. Who submitted last year's application? How did we fill out some of the fields like Has your group participated previously? If so, please summarize your involvement and any past successes and failures. and What is your plan for dealing with disappearing contributors? In general, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Google (and GSoC) know who OSM are, we're a big enough community that we deal with such stuff all the time. I think we'll get accepted so long as an application gets submitted. Cheers, Andy * Maybe not Potlatch's license, which whilst clearly open-source might not be officially OSI approved :-) 3. Is anyone willing to be the backup administrator for the group? Thanks! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] immutable=yes Fwd: DEC Lands
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:36 PM, Russ Nelson r...@cloudmade.com wrote: On Mar 12, 2009, at 7:43 AM, Ted Mielczarek wrote: . However, I reject the idea that there is any data that belongs in OSM that makes no sense to edit. If you can't edit it, then by definition it shouldn't be in a wiki-style map. No one has been able to refute my claim that if someone would enter it by hand, it belongs in OSM regardless of its source. And if it comes from surveyed data, then it makes no sense to edit its position. Metadata, perhaps. But unless you've been out in the field with a theolodite, you have no business changing the location of the NYS DEC Lands position. So my point of view is that there's no place for data in OSM that can't be collected and/or maintained by the community. Data imports of things that we can otherwise collect are useful bootstraps. But if we don't have the ability to verify/improve/dispute/resolve problems about it, whether through technical means or issues of authoritiveness, then there's not much point in it being there. So I think there's absolutely no point in this boundary data being put into OSM, since you have described how it's logically impossible for us to either maintain it or collect it or dispute it. It's not that it's technically impossible. We have trained surveyors amongst the community, and I'm sure we could rustle up a theodolite if needs be. But if we collect evidence of boundaries that disagree with the dataset, and therefore by definition it's our evidence that's incorrect, then we've lost already. OSM isn't a dumping ground for unmaintainable datasets, they can be kept elsewhere and combined at another point in the toolchain. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM license change: A license to kill? - How to make a nightmare come true!
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Ulf Lamping ulf.lamp...@googlemail.com wrote: Now I'm asking you about a list of the OSMF members publicly. I'm not an OSMF member for the record. The OSMF is asking for an OSM license change, so I really want to know what the persons in question are that want to change the license. The OSMF hasn't asked anyone for a license change. The OSMF Board hasn't yet agreed to put any new license to the OSMF for consideration, never mind the OSM community. I'm sure it will at some point soon, but don't go thinking that the list of OSMF members have had anything to do with the new license *yet*. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] immutable=yes Fwd: DEC Lands
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, Russ Nelson wrote: On Mar 9, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Matthew Toups wrote: If we can't change the data, what's the point of having it in OSM? Having consistent metadata and a consistent single-source API. That's exactly what I said in my first reply: Once OSM and its tool chain are established, everyone is going to want to have their data in OSM. (Because then I only have to change my style file and the data is there on my map, instead of having to think about how to download it from elsewhere.) Which is ok, even desired, as long as the data is relevant and unless you consider the data your property that nobody must change. The power of OSM is not the API but the people. If you don't want the people then don't misuse our API to store your data just because it makes it easier for you to generate nice maps. By all means, set up another server with the OSM API running on it where you hand out accounts only to those who are privileged enough to change immutable data and adapt your toolchain to query both servers. (Or generally adapt the OSM toolchain to work with multiple servers.) I am absolutely sure that the dataset in question will, like any other dataset on the planet, contain errors. And if we find erroneous data in OSM, and know better, we will fix it in OSM, rather than asking some authority to please correct their data and then have a fixed update half a year later. There are a number of things one could do when working with such official data. As 80n has suggested, the data could be tagged and editors could make the user aware of the fact that someone was of the opinion that this data should not be changed and whether he's sure of what he's doing. It would also be possible to write software that works in a web-of-trust kind of way: Extract these boundaries from OSM but only accept changes from users I trust; if other users have changed the data then go back in history until you find a change done by a trusted user. So anyone who is keen on extracting the official view rather than what OSM mappers made of it could do so. The cool thing about this is that it would follow OSM's mantra of filtering on the output side, not on the input side. The output you get would depend on which people you trust; whereas what you had been suggesting would be to just discard, in the database, everything done by people you don't trust. I maintain that it would be totally inacceptable to OSM to automatically revert changes to objects that are deemed immutable. +1 Reminds me a lot of the discussions about SRTM data. There's no point in importing it into OSM since it's not community-editable (and it's authoritative in its own context), but we've written tools to convert it into OSM format for easier use. But we don't confuse the on-the-wire-format with which db / project it should be sourced from. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
