Re: [Texascavers] If you care about Honey Creek Cave, please send your comments today or tomorrow and again before the rescheduled public meeting

[Pete Lindsley]

Try a different browser or dump your browser cache and try again.

 - Pete

On Mar 18, 2020, at 4:24 PM, Carol W Russell  wrote:

using the link, Im putting it in as the permit no. and hitting the next 
button--same result.C

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:55 PM Nancy Weaver mailto:nan...@prismnet.com>> wrote:
Carol - I just used link and WQ0015835001  and it came up just fine.  maybe try 
again.  Nancy


> I tried to use the no. and online link you gave and was told "number not 
> found."
> 
> Carol
> 
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 12:06 PM Bill Steele  > wrote:
> Hello Texas cavers,
> 
> Since most of you are staying home more than usual, please help with this. 
> 
> The public meeting scheduled for March  <>19 has been cancelled by TCEQ. 
> 
> We have been informed that you may send your comments in by the first 
> deadline, tomorrow, March 19, and a second time by the rescheduled hearing 
> date which has not been announced yet. Please send your comments in today or 
> at the latest tomorrow and include a request to submit additional comments at 
> a later date.
> 
> You may submit your comments online at 
> https://www14.tceq.texas.gov/epic/eComment/  
> by entering WQ0015835001. 
> 
> Perhaps you can draw information from what Andy Grubbs sent out yesterday 
> (see below) or what Kurt Menking sent out on Texascavers.com 
>  on Friday, March 13. 
> 
> Thanks for helping,
> 
> Bill Steele 
> speleoste...@aol.com 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 17, 2020, at 5:45 PM, grub...@centurytel.net 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> What follows is part of a email I sent about the Honey Creek ranch proposal. 
>> ( not to TCEQ)  I design septic systems as part of my work.  A lot of what 
>> is being proposed does not come up to the state standards that you'd have to 
>> follow if you were building a system for  a single family home, much less 
>> the standards some counties have and the rules governing development on the 
>> Edwards Aquifer recharge zone.   
>> 
>> One thing I'd like to point out is that there is a state requirement for a 
>> "reserve area" when using soils asorbsion types of systems.  You must have 
>> an area you reserve that is the size of your drainfield where you will 
>> construct a new field when the old one is used to the point where it no 
>> longer functions.  The state recognizes the fact that soil systems do not 
>> have infinite life and must be replaced.  I think that there are also 
>> requirements for soil tests on the type system being proposed that are very 
>> extensive.  much more than we do for individual home systems.  I will see if 
>> I can find chapter and page  for those regs for you  
>> 
>>   Since these homes are not going to be small  less than 2500 sq ft the 
>> state water use is 300 gallons per day / house; less than 2500 sq ft is 240 
>> GPD  more than 3500 sq ft 360 GPD
>> 
>> State law limits the amount of effluent to 5000 GPD/ acre.  This is 
>> proposing 4562 gallons / acre for their lowballed figures.  0.105 GPD/sq ft  
>> which is slightly more than what is allowed on clay soils  0.1000 GPD/sq ft
>> 
>> 9 lots per acre is 4840 sq ft per lot.  That would result in something over 
>> 80% impervious cover per lot, without counting the unused green space of the 
>> entire development as part of the amount.  effective IC not total IC for the 
>> development
>> 
>> 
>> I also believe that lift station reserve capacity should be addressed.  No 
>> state regulations on this that I know of.  But county rules for septic 
>> systems that have pumps require the pump compartment to be big enough that 
>> there is sufficient capacity so that there is space for a days flow between 
>> pump- on and the alarm, and another days flow between the alarm level and 
>> the top of the tank.  the alarm going off if water fills up past the daily 
>> design flow and the pump didnt come on.  This means that if there is a 
>> problem you have a full day to get it fixed before you over flow or shut 
>> down the water in the house.  Lift stations are the weak link in the chain 
>> for wastewater systems.  If they had a containment pond, a lined containment 
>> pond, then we would have way less disasters where the station failed and 
>> unabated flow pours into a creek or on to the land.  Got a lift station that 
>> pumps 20,000 gallons per day.  You'd need about 27,000 cubic feet of storage 
>> for 1 days flow  54,000 if you followed the day to find out and day to fix 
>> it rule.  Do any water systems have provision to cut off supply flows during 
>> pump station outages ? That's a question I dont know ( but I sort of doubt 
>> it)
>> 
>> AGGrubbsi
>> 
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Re: [Texascavers] New edition of the Hall of Texas and Mexico Cavers

[Pete Lindsley]

Thanks BIll!

 - Pete

On Mar 1, 2020, at 9:30 PM, William R. Elliott  wrote:

Dear cavers,

I just posted a new edition of the Hall of Texas and Mexico Cavers. Go to 
http://cavelife.info/hall/hall.htm 

This edition adds 12 more obituaries and tributes:

2020 Michael J. Gibbons
2018 Tom White
2015 Mario Zabaleta
2014 Katherine Goodbar
2014 Ollene Bundrant
2012 Nick Arburn
2011 Richard M. Smith, Jr.
2005 Tom Bone
1996 Don Widener
1993 Luther Bundrant
1982 Tom Warden
1977 George W. Gray Jr. 


Thanks, 

William R. (Bill) Elliott

speodes...@gmail.com 
573-291-5093 cell

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Re: [Texascavers] Cave Blocks For Sale

[Pete Lindsley]

James, at $95 and 2500 pounds each, all you need is an appropriate trailer that 
you can load and unload. Unfortunately it’s too far from Placitas for me to 
consider where I would even put one ;-)

 - Pete

On Feb 29, 2020, at 12:28 PM, James Jasek  wrote:

Jon I would love to have one of these Cave blogs how much do they cost and how 
would I get one to Waco

Sent from my iPhoneX

> On Feb 29, 2020, at 8:09 AM, John Brooks  
> wrote:
> 

The greater cost for those blocks is the transportation. We use those blocks 
for benches and landscape elements for projects in central Texas - and the cost 
is reasonable. But every time, we try to use those in North Texas, the 
transportation costs are excessive.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 29, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Robert B  wrote:
> 
> 
> Good morning.
> I found this FB marketplace post amusing. Hope ya'll will too.
> If I had a need or such large stone blocks, I would prefer the rough natural 
> look to the smooth cut surface.
> 
> Cave Blocks For Sale 
> "These are the very popular cave blocks made from the cave formations in 
> central texas."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1951451184998483/ 
> 
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Deep Inside the Cave Are Answers :

[Pete Lindsley]

Thanks Jerry. It reminded me of the dire wolf bones and others from Laubach 
Cave (now Inner Space) in Texas that we found in the 1960s. We helped Bob 
Slaughter, the SMU paleontologist, and his grad students remove many bones 
through the original 24 inch borehole entrance before TXDOT closed it as I-35 
was constructed over the site. 

 - Pete

On Aug 16, 2019, at 4:37 AM, 'Jerry' via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
Speleological Society  wrote:

Deep Inside the Cave Are Answers 

September 17, 2015 Posted by: Mark Kaufman 


Deep inside the Carlsbad Caverns Answers are Preserved. 

The history of all living things is that they go extinct; this holds true for 
the lumbering megafauna of our recent past in the "Ice Age." Sometimes we 
envision these extinctions as being gentle, drawn-out events, in which families 
of great, hulking mammoths gradually disappear;eventually the last individual 
finally settles down for an eternal nap, its eyes gracefully falling shut, its 
great tusks buried  under swirls of earth.

Evidence in Carlsbad Caverns, however, tells a less romantic tale. The end of 
the ice-age was abrupt and severe, particularly in the southwest. The 
transition from cooler, wetter conditions to the arid conditions present today 
were punctuated by a paralyzing drought –but not the type that lasts decades, 
but rather, well over 1,000 years.

Today, the bones of dire wolves, saber-tooth cats, and ground sloths (like the 
one found in Carlsbad Caverns) are still fresh. In some places, like Los 
Angeles, complete and pristine skeletons are being pulled from the ground, 
brushed off and put back together –reminding us of the almost mythological 
creatures that so recently roamed this land. The idea that they all vanished 
together is profoundly curious, but we have a good idea why.

Caves do an excellent job of preserving the past. At the University of New 
Mexico, paleoclimatologists Victor J. Polyak and Yemane Asmerom capitalize on 
this history. The most visited part of Carlsbad Caverns is the aptly named Big 
Room –the largest cavern room that anyone knows about in all of North America. 
Interspersed amongst the towering stalagmites are pool basins. Most are empty 
today, but tell-tale shelfstone deposits  along pool edges illustrate a past 
high-water mark –a time in which the world above the caverns was not an arid 
desert, but a cool, wet forest, populated by lofty Douglas firs. All that rain 
water and snow melt needed somewhere to go, and here, it drained into the 
caverns.
Shelfstone is a fascinating type of formation, generally appearing as 
profoundly flat ledges at the edge of pools. They are made of calcite –the same 
stuff that composes the Cavern's famous stalagmites and stalactites. They form 
when water dripping from the limestone ceiling falls into a cave pool;minerals 
precipitate out and then stick to the pool's edges. They are valuable 
indicators of past climactic trends, because even when the water recedes, the 
shelfstone remains.

Drs. Polyak and Asmerom chose to examine seven pool basins. They removed and 
dated samples using a method commonly employed to determine the age of both 
cave formations and coral (uranium-series dating). This showed that the pool 
basins were full to the brim until around 15,000 years ago. Soon after, the 
pools began to dry up – and many have been dry ever since.

The story becomes more curious.Around 14,500 years ago, ice-age lakes, such as 
New Mexico's Lake Estancia – a once giant lake forty miles long and 
twenty-three miles wide, began to evaporate and eventually disappeared 
completely. The culprit again: Drought. 1,500 years passed this way, and during 
so, many large ice-age fauna laid down to rest, forever.

Today, the threats of drought are ever salient. The western United States is 
mired in various stages of drought, from abnormally dry in great swathes of 
western New Mexico, to the exceptionally dry conditions occurring in 
California. Such trends have spurred research into California's climactic past, 
revealing two geologically recent megadroughts, of 150 and 200 years. They 
occurred during the middle ages, long before written history, but left their 
evidence in tree rings.

California recovered from these megadroughts. A 1,500 year drought, however, 
proved to be the terminal event for our planet's last ice-age. Conditions for 
the mammoths, mastodons, and sloths became unfavorable, perhaps lethal, and we 
never went back. Since then, most of the world's ice has receded to the poles, 
and great swathes of land have become desert. Other factors may have 
contributed to this extinction; of note, the spread and proliferation of a 
certain species of spear wielding hunters. Thus, the debate about this 
extinction will continue – and it should. 

But the relationship between a drying world, both above and below ground, and 
the disappearance of these great hulking creatures is certainly provoking, if 
not humbling. 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Re: DistoX

[Pete Lindsley]

Thanks for the link.

No distance measurements are taken. We placed the azimuth targets (PVC pipes 
placed in sockets on the ground)  farther away in order to get a more precise 
azimuth alignment. But the details are dependent on the user, and how good 
their eyesight is, and how steady the hand. 

Of course if you have several X2s for calibration check, we also just compare 
standard readings in two directions, FS & BS, because it is faster. It is 
always best to check cal at the cave since the magnetics at home may be 
different.

That 3-D printed fixture (and others seen on the internet) are quick and easy, 
but if your laser beam is not aligned with the flat sides of the unit there 
could be a slight error. I have also heard of people shimming the sides of 
their unit with tape, which is good if you are using the quick fixture.

 - Pete

On Jul 23, 2019, at 3:32 PM, mmin...@caver.net wrote:

Pete,

The hardware is the same. You can get the firmware update here: 
<https://paperless.bheeb.ch/download.html>. Scroll down to DistoX2 Firmware. 
Current is version 25.

As I understand it, you don't need to take distance measurements at all for 
calibration (which means the laser doesn't need to hit a target). What is 
important is holding the unit at the proper angles and rotations. Dwight 
Livingston used a 3-D printer to create a stand that has all of the positions 
built in. It was only about a foot long on each side. I've seen other similarly 
small frames for calibration made of wood or PVC.

Mark

On 2019-07-23 16:54, Pete Lindsley wrote:
> So Mark, can you update previous X2 conversions?
> We use a Brunton/Suunto compass course at Fort Stanton which has a
> center point with 6 radial points ~ 50 feet away. We have extra
> sockets near one of the radial points just 4 feet away for the +\- 45
> degree inclination shots. We use the 50 foot points for the Az compass
> shots, and multiple calibrations can be done at the same time, usually
> at dusk.
> At home, I reduced this to three posts 15-20 apart, and two more 4
> feet away. See attached sketch.
> - Pete
> On Jul 23, 2019, at 2:30 PM, mmin...@caver.net wrote:
> On most expeditions I've been on, Distos are calibrated, or at least
> checked, on site. At Carlsbad Caverns a couple of years ago, we
> calibrated the Distos _in_ the cave at the beginning of survey. We got
> great backsight agreement and awesome closures. One very large loop
> closed with under a foot of error. We've had similar closure success
> in Warm River Cave, where we closed a 2300-foot loop with 0.1% error.
> Of course if the data are good, large loops should close better than
> small ones because minor random errors will tend to cancel out. Not so
> for systematic errors like from miscalibrated instruments.
> The current DistoX2 firmware has a feature that compares the last
> three shots and if they agree to within 2 degrees (or whatever), the
> instrument beeps and displays three dots. That way you know whether
> your shots are good without having to look back and compare manually.
> If you rotate the unit between shots it uses different sensors, and is
> good for catching calibration errors. Of course taking actual
> backsights is still advisable because that's the only way to detect
> possible magnetic anomalies.
> In actual practice we find that if treated well, the DistoX2 generally
> stays within calibration over long periods of time and from one place
> to another, within reason.
> Mark Minton
> On 2019-07-23 14:07, Pete Lindsley wrote:
>> DIsto X2s are great in a cave when they are calibrated. I have
>> modified 6 units so far with 2 more on the bench. One of those I
>> suspect has a bad daughterboard. I found out the other Disto had an
>> issue before I took it apart. It helps to calibrate the units before
>> going into a cave. At Stanton we have found bad calibrations both
>> during a survey or afterwards. Ditto for Bruntons & Suuntos. So you
>> need to be able to calibrate the DIsto X2 in the cave, which means you
>> need to carry in your Android phone or tablet. (The Brunton is more
>> rugged than those smart devices, and may be a worthy backup unit.)
>> All of the Suuntos I have bought have only lasted for 3-4 years before
>> you have to replace the clouded up “smart part”, at just slightly
>> less cost than a brand new Suunto. The Suuntos can also have compass &
>> inclination errors (like Disto & Bruntons) but few people bother to
>> check calibration. At least the Suuntos are waterproof. Suuntos &
>> Bruntons work well in the daylight, not so much the Distos.
>> For the Disto units where the laser does not align with the sides of
>> the unit, you certainly need to carefully run a calibration that
>> rotates the unit on all 4 sides. Som

Re: [Texascavers] Stories

[Pete Lindsley]

So Bill, is a Branton Compass a Bentley Compass?

Mine are of the original “Brunton” design, with the two slots on the side for 
the Brunton Mount. Even my Ainsworth and my K and my military units had that 
slot on the side. I have also seen  a “Brunson” compass and some of the eBay 
units may claim all sorts of heritage, including “I don’t know anything about 
this precision instrument” which translates to “This is a fake or reproduction, 
but don’t blame me cause I know nothing…”.

 - Pete

On Jul 23, 2019, at 1:53 PM, Bill Bentley  wrote:

You are no longer the Center of Attention of the Texas Caving Universe! You 
were replaced by a Branton Compass!

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 2:47 PM David mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Y'all are killing me with all these emails in my inbox

LOL!

I may have to unsubscribe.

LOL!

David Locklear
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Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Stories:

[Pete Lindsley]

Geary, Alan Hill had a Brunton where the wrong end of the needle pointed north. 
Somewhat confusing in the cave it was. But those that knew Alan also knew he 
was around some high power lasers (and associated magnetic fields) so 
apparently one time he had his Brunton in his pocket when he pressed the button 
and North became South. He finally reversed the needle polarity when he got 
tired of the rest of us complaining about his backwards needle. At least the 
Brunton was easy to fix that small “problem”.

 - Pete
 
On Jul 23, 2019, at 9:23 AM, Geary Schindel  
wrote:

I have not heard of a compass changing polarity before. Interesting but guess 
it is possible to remagnetize the magnet on the compass needle. Then again, 
maybe you were near a vortex like the one’s near Sedona. I understand they can 
do all kinds of strange things such as teleport you back in time, increase your 
chances of being probed by aliens (the interstellar kind), cure you of Herpes, 
etc.
 
I have seen clinometers get deflected by some who’s heads are approaching Black 
Hole density. LOL. 
 
Actually, I sent a clinometer back to General Supply because it laid in a cave 
stream for about a year and got really funky. They put in a new clinometer 
instrument. When I checked it using a fixed incline plane, it gave me two 
different readings – for example +25 degrees and – 37 degrees.
 
I called General Supply and they denied that was possible and that they had a 
very expensive machine so it had to be right. Sorry, but it was my problem. 
That’s when I told him that maybe the guy that calibrated the instrument had a 
head that was as dense as a black hole and it was distorting the gravitational 
field in the building. So, I called up the Suunto rep in the US and he said to 
send it to Forestry Supply and they would fix it and Suunto would pay for it. 
Before those of you that know me jump to conclusions, I know it wasn’t my head 
causing the distortion as the instrument worked find when it came back from 
Forestry Supply.
 
I do remember the Suunto rep mumbling something about General Supply and that 
my assumptions on head density were probably correct.
 
Geary 
 
 
 
 
 
From: Texascavers mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com>> On Behalf Of bmorgan...@aol.com 

Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 9:45 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Stories:
 
Everywhere I go I carry a small cheap pocket compass. Oftentimes I even remove 
the plate so all I have to carry is a little round plastic disc not much bigger 
than a silver dollar. Cheap? Yes, but all compasses work which is why you can 
pay $5 and get one that is “guaranteed” to work.
 
So imaging my puzzlefaction when I was in a thick patch of woods on an overcast 
day and checked my compass bearing. Somehow it seemed all wrong, how did I get 
on the other side of the swamp? So I checked again, and again. Then the sun 
came out and it was setting in the east! Back at the hacienda I set the compass 
on my dining room table to discover that my home had rotated 180 degrees. This 
wasn’t like the “zona de silencio” in Chihuahua where my compass was about 30 
degrees off, it was exactly backwards! I threw it away and got a new one (a 
different brand I think).
 
The new one worked for about two weeks, then it too suddenly reversed itself. 
This so mystified me that I got out my various other compasses and lined them 
up . All pointed in the right direction except for the new one which was 
exactly backwards. I even took photographs.
 
I carefully reviewed my activities over the last several months, but had been 
nowhere near any powerful magnets such as an MRI. My Swiss army knife is mildly 
magnetic but I carry it in the other pocket. It is worthy of note that I live 
in a world with very few electromagnetic devices of any kind, my very own zona 
de silencio. I don’t even have cell phone service despite living near a major 
city.
 
I searched on line for an explanation but none could be found. One leading 
compass manufacturer stated that on rare occasions there could be “anomalies”, 
but other than that zip nada.
 
At present my compass works perfectly. Would one of y’all Texican rocket 
scientists please offer me an explanation of this mystery???
 
Sleazel
 
 
 
From: Texascavers mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com>> On Behalf Of Logan
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 11:30 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com ; Dwight 
Deal mailto:dirt...@comcast.net>>; SWR Cavers 
mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>;texascavers@texascavers.com 

Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Brunton Stories:
 
Dwight's story (see below) about paying $5 for a supposedly "defective" Brunton 
with east and west reversed reminds me of a similar story regarding metric hand 
tapes. Like cavers, archeologists were  the other group I belonged to who 
started using 

Re: [Texascavers] Brass Brunton Pocket Transit

[Pete Lindsley]

DIsto X2s are great in a cave when they are calibrated. I have modified 6 units 
so far with 2 more on the bench. One of those I suspect has a bad 
daughterboard. I found out the other Disto had an issue before I took it apart. 
It helps to calibrate the units before going into a cave. At Stanton we have 
found bad calibrations both during a survey or afterwards. Ditto for Bruntons & 
Suuntos. So you need to be able to calibrate the DIsto X2 in the cave, which 
means you need to carry in your Android phone or tablet. (The Brunton is more 
rugged than those smart devices, and may be a worthy backup unit.)

All of the Suuntos I have bought have only lasted for 3-4 years before you have 
to replace the clouded up “smart part”, at just slightly less cost than a brand 
new Suunto. The Suuntos can also have compass & inclination errors (like Disto 
& Bruntons) but few people bother to check calibration. At least the Suuntos 
are waterproof. Suuntos & Bruntons work well in the daylight, not so much the 
Distos. 

For the Disto units where the laser does not align with the sides of the unit, 
you certainly need to carefully run a calibration that rotates the unit on all 
4 sides. Some of the calibration videos out there don’t do that.

I started off with a used tripod-mounted quadrant Brunton using the Shadow 
Method. We ran the closure data in Carlsbad against Tom Rohr’s theodolite and 
precision level survey using the Hardy-Corcoran Fortran program on an IBM 360. 
Overkill for your smaller caves, but we made pretty good FS/BS measurements out 
to ~ 100 feet. Over the last 15+ years the Fort Stanton Snowy River surveys 
have used all of these devices and our sketching techniques have improved 200%, 
partially because it is so easy to use the Disto to accurately shoot in the key 
sketched items. The Suuntos apparently introduced blunders, and perhaps lazy 
FS/BS techniques, because some of those older surveys appear to show that water 
runs uphill. 

Our new trick is an Arduino controlled data logging barometer that we hope will 
help sort out these past elevation errors. I am hoping we can kill off some of 
our 20 foot elevation closure errors from old Suunto surveys with the baro 
units quickly checking the route. When your 12 mile long stream passage has an 
average inclination of ~0.2 degrees, careful backsights become very important. 
It might even help to mount your Disto-X2 on a tripod and take instrument 
height / light height data like we were doing 50 years ago with the lowly 
Brunton. Hand-held 200 foot Disto shots usually have quite a bit of “wiggle” if 
you are trying for 0.5 degree precision.

 - Pete

On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:07 AM, John Brooks  
wrote:

IMO - the Brunton can stay on the collection shelvesI remember numerous 
survey trips with Pete using his favorite Bruntonone trip he called a 
string of alien sounding numbers and quadrants.after scratching my head for 
a few minutesI asked him to translate it into “English”. I think he 
converted every shot afterwards.after the trip I politely suggested that a 
suntos compass might be easierI don’t think Pete ever agreed and just kept 
using The Brunton.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 22, 2019, at 6:18 PM, JamesJasek mailto:caver...@hot.rr.com>> wrote:

> Sure would be good to go back to those days
> 
> Sent from my iPhoneX
> 
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 5:53 PM, Charles Loving  <mailto:lovingi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Tape and Brunton survey by.. I recall those in early days before Bockbeer 
> and his telenovela.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:12 AM Pete Lindsley  <mailto:caverp...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Logan, I bought a Brass Brunton several years ago off eBay, and the seller 
> claimed it was an authentic antique. NOT! It is a lower precision “look 
> alike”, made in India along with similar artsy transits and the like. As I 
> recall, comparing it to the other 3-4 “real” Bruntons I have, I noted around 
> 30 differences with an authentic Brunton. Nice to look at, but not a 
> precision instrument. It took about a month to get my money back (~$30-40).
> 
>  - Pete
> 
> On Jul 21, 2019, at 11:00 PM, Logan  <mailto:lmcn...@austin.rr.com>> wrote:
> 
> I'm interrupting the TexasLockLearList to discuss something that actually has 
> relevance to caving, and to Lee Jay Graves RIP.
> 
> The caving connection is the Brunton Pocket Transit, aka the Brunton Compass. 
> Except for the old-timers, most of you probably have never used one, so here 
> is some background from Wikipedia. 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunton_compass 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunton_compass>
> It was commonly used by cavers when I started in Fall 1968.
> 
> But over the next several years it had been largely replaced (at least among 
> the American cavers I knew) by the Suunto compass made 

Re: [Texascavers] Brass Brunton Pocket Transit

[Pete Lindsley]

Logan, I bought a Brass Brunton several years ago off eBay, and the seller 
claimed it was an authentic antique. NOT! It is a lower precision “look alike”, 
made in India along with similar artsy transits and the like. As I recall, 
comparing it to the other 3-4 “real” Bruntons I have, I noted around 30 
differences with an authentic Brunton. Nice to look at, but not a precision 
instrument. It took about a month to get my money back (~$30-40).

 - Pete

On Jul 21, 2019, at 11:00 PM, Logan  wrote:

I'm interrupting the TexasLockLearList to discuss something that actually has 
relevance to caving, and to Lee Jay Graves RIP.

The caving connection is the Brunton Pocket Transit, aka the Brunton Compass. 
Except for the old-timers, most of you probably have never used one, so here is 
some background from Wikipedia. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunton_compass 

It was commonly used by cavers when I started in Fall 1968.

But over the next several years it had been largely replaced (at least among 
the American cavers I knew) by the Suunto compass made in Finland, which are 
still popular today. 
https://www.suunto.com/en-us/About-Suunto/History-Timeline/ 

In fact for quite a few years a set of the compass and clinometer has been 
donated by TSS to the winner of the TCR Survey Contest.

Now the Lee Jay connection: His storage shed needs to be empty by July 31, so 
Justin Shaw assembled a team with Galen Falgot, Drew Thompson, Eric Flint & 
Meg, and Logan McNatt to go over there Friday July 19th evening. Gil Ediger 
loaned his wonderful Isuzu dump truck and we spent several hours loading over 
half the contents of the shed. Early the next morning we unloaded everything 
onto tables in Gil's front yard for an "Everything Must Go Fire Sale".

As we emptied the tubs and bags, I noticed something I had never seen before: a 
Brass Brunton Pocket Transit, in pristine never-used condition! So I removed it 
from the sale items thinking it can go in the Texas Speleological Center Museum 
whenever that is transferred from the old TSS office at the Pickle Research 
Campus. A Google search showed the image below which is identical except Lee 
Jay's is stamped with INDIA rather than STANLEY LONDON.  It appears to be 
functional and probably modern. At least it doesn't say "Made in China"!

Comments and more information on this item are most welcome. Please forward to 
other cavers who might have insight.
Thanks,
Logan McNatt






END OF INTERRUPTION; RESUME "USUAL" PROGRAMING ON TEXASLOCKLEARLIST



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Re: [Texascavers] Water harvesting in caves

[Pete Lindsley]

John, I can verify that some 50 years ago that the water even in remote areas 
of Fitton Cave was not safe to drink. Back then, before it was managed by the 
NPS, it was customary for some cavers to get carbide lamp water from the lower 
level stream passage which runs down the hill above the cave. On a trip in the 
1960s Carl Kunath and myself drank some water well above this stream level from 
a drip in a remote dome pit. We recovered from that event the whole next day, 
instead of the planned visit to another cave on our list.

In Fort Stanton we often carry water into the historic part of the cave for 
restoration purposes. When Snowy River flows,  much of the surface water comes 
from Eagle Creek and is fed from snowmelt and rain from the mountain. We have a 
small water source near the Midnight Junction cave camp some 11 miles from the 
entrance, but cavers are advised to treat all the water collected in the cave. 
Although some have consumed water from pools without ill effects, they are 
taking a dangerous chance when you consider the rescue issues that deep in the 
cave. 

When Snowy River is flowing, the water is quite clear and inviting. But stream 
flow instruments that measure velocity from the almost invisible sediments in a 
surface stream don’t work at all in Snowy River. So yes, the karst can filter 
out a lot of stuff, but not the bad stuff that can make you very sick.

 - Pete

On Mar 7, 2019, at 12:20 PM, John Brooks  
wrote:

Does Karst filter out run off from agricultural operations? I have often 
wondered about the quality of water in a cave downstream from a pig farm, 
poultry farm or a cattle operation. Or for that matter - what about crops? 
Seems like there are a lot of nasty chemicals spray on crops these days - would 
these chemicals show up in water harvested in a cave ?
For example, how safe is the water in the buffalo river now that there is a pig 
farm within its watershed ?
Drinking unfiltered or untreated water in a cave seems like a sketchy idea to 
meunless the cave is in some sort of “virgin” wilderness area.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 7, 2019, at 8:07 AM, mmin...@caver.net wrote:
> 
> Cave water doesn't need to be directly potable to be useful. We collect water 
> from cave sources all the time, both on day trips and for in-cave camps. All 
> you need is a drop or two of water purifier, like iodine tablets, bleach, or, 
> my favorite, Microdyn (only available in Mexico).
> 
> Mark Minton
> mmin...@caver.net
> 
>> On 2019-03-07 02:44, David wrote:
>> I am going to call the video below, "Video of the Week," in part
>> because I am too lazy to search for a better video.
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlAHBz0pP20
>> This is an uncommon topic problem in Texas as few caves in the region have
>> water dripping from the ceiling that is potentially potable.Right ??
>> I don't think they are intentionally trying to do this in any kind of
>> permanent way. Note at the end, his title is "X-Spurt."
>> David
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Re: [Texascavers] Your GPS Devices May Stop Working On April 6 If You Don't Or Can't Update Firmware

[Pete Lindsley]

Reminds me of the time we drove from Dallas to Mazatlan, crossed to La Paz on 
the ferry on a stormy night, drove all around Baja to Santa Rosalia where we 
crossed back across the gulf to Guaymas. At that time there were no road maps 
or WAC charts that showed any road connection with the Copper Canyon area, but 
we pressed on asking for the trail to Chihuahua and were able to drive all the 
way back to Juarez. The rough road broke an internal connection on the battery, 
so going back over the Sierras we had to always park on a hill so the next 
morning we could roll down the hill to start. Great trip!

 - Pete

On Feb 14, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Charles Loving  wrote:

What about your paper map? I have yet to use a GPS or a smart telephone. I find 
no need for a GPS. I usually know where I am and I can read ONC charts and use 
a compass. Back when Ed and I crossed the Sahara in a 2CV with only ONC charts 
and a compass. There were no paved roads just sand an tires to mark the way. It 
got dicey in a zero visibility sand storm and we sort of got lost for a few 
hours until we found the Hogars. The sand abated. 

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:42 AM Lee H. Skinner mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>> wrote:
Another similar to Y2K problem!  GPS receivers built after 2010 should 
handle this week rollover problem OK.


News stories at:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/19/02/14/0041206/your-gps-devices-may-stop-working-on-april-6-if-you-dont-or-cant-update-firmware
 


and

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/12/current_gps_epoch_ends/ 



PDF file warning from Homeland Security:

https://ics-cert.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Memorandum_on_GPS_2019.pdf
 



Lee Skinner

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Re: [Texascavers] Caving Ingenuity Required!

[Pete Lindsley]

Or get a GoPro helmet mount and adapt it to the carbide. Next time just put 
your GoPro there.

 - Pete

On Jan 3, 2019, at 3:01 PM, Scott Boyd  wrote:

Duct tape - several yards of it! It will also add padding to the outside of 
your helmet. 


Scott
scottd...@gmail.com 
On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 3:36 PM Mallory Mayeux mailto:mmay...@gmail.com> wrote:
Let's say someone had a bracket like this: 
https://www.innermountainoutfitters.com/metal-flat-lamp-bracket/ 


and an old carbide light, and they wanted to go caving with their carbide lamp 
- but only for a weekend. After the weekend was over, they'd revert back to 
their normal LED headlamp.

What would be the best way to mount a bracket on a helmet for the weekend - 
strong enough to keep your carbide on but easy enough to reconvert into a plain 
old helmet?

Ideas welcome!

Mallory Mayeux 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande

[Pete Lindsley]

Thanks, Matthew. Back a few decades ago when in Dallas trying to plan kayak and 
raft trips 600 miles away in St. Elena Canyon, it was difficult to determine 
how much water would be in the river. All you could go on was the BBNP phone 
call that gave you the depth of the water at one place in the river. I 
understand the primary water input upstream from the St. Elena launch point was 
from the Rio Conchos in Mexico. The USGS now has numerous stations that are 
useful to track water flow but I’m not sure Mexico has anything similar. 
“Rivercast” is the name of an iPhone app that lets you monitor a few staging 
stations that may also be seen on Jen’s URL. There might be similar apps for 
those of the Droid persuasion.

 - Pete

On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:23 PM, Ormsby, Matthew A  
wrote:

Rob, 
 
I wasn’t going to post anything but I think there’s a tremendous misconception 
about the Rio Grande in Texas. Probably the one thing I do more often than cave 
is paddle rivers so I have some perspective of West Texas waterways that’s 
unique. A month ago I took a group of scouts upstream into Santa Elena Canyon 
on a canoe assisted hike. If you call Big Bend, it’s usually advertised as 
such. In sections of the canyon the water was no more than 2 inches deep. The 
canyon is a pool and drop just like the Pecos and Devil’s River so it pools up, 
gets deep and drops over a ledge that’s usually fairly shallow. I’ve paddled 
the entire Big Bend From Santa Elena all the way through Boquilla’s on several 
different trips at different times of the year and in different years. When the 
Rio Grande is deep in Texas, it’s because of rain in Texas and Mexico, not from 
water coming from New Mexico (generally speaking). The West Gulf RFC website 
displays river gauges that demonstrate as much if you check them often and know 
what you’re looking at. The Rio below Santa Elena gets deeper due to numerous 
hot springs and creeks but they are dependent on rainfall as well. A decade ago 
a Mexican dam crested and the entire Big Bend was flooded, again, not from New 
Mexico and snowmelt but from the Rio Conchos and a hurricane that filled their 
lake. What should be noted is Lake Amistad gets its water from the Rio Grande 
AND the Pecos River AND the Devil’s River.
 
Now take everything I’ve said about the Rio Grande and put the name Pecos in 
its place, Texas gets virtually NO water coming down the Pecos River. Most of 
it is impounded upstream ending in Red Bluff lake on the boarder. If you’ve 
driven from Monahans to Pecos it’s not uncommon to see it dry on both sides of 
the highway. The Pecos and Devils have numerous springs that add tremendous 
volume during their last 60 miles (46 for the devils), completely dependent on 
rainfall. Right now, all 3 rivers are at high volumes due to the amount of rain 
we’ve had over the past several weeks south of I-10. I’m itching to take my 
boats out because the best trips are riding the tail ends of flash floods. The 
rivers can gain 30 feet in height in the lower canyons in under an hour but 
they usually drop to normal levels within days.
 
5 years ago my brother and I paddled the devils river on the tail end of a 
flash flood all the way into Amistad. It’s a 46 mile trip with 12 miles of lake 
paddling (really hard into the wind paddling). Well, we got to mile 34 and 
started our canoe assisted hike because Amistad was so low the lake, which 
should have backfilled to that point, was 20 feet low. We walked our canoe 10 
miles in a foot or less of water until we made it into the lake. Amistad has 
since mostly filled due to rain south of I-10. 
 
And I guess that’s the point, when Amistad is full, it’s because of rain in 
South West Texas. If Texas is in drought Amistad is directly affected. That 
water is very consistently released from Amistad downstream to Falcon Lake and 
from Falcon to the gulf. A very small amount is coming from the Rio Grande 
North of Presidio and the water that Texas is fighting for is mostly consumed 
by farmers South of El Paso to Esperanza.
 
Southwest Paddler maintains a website which highlights paddling the Rio Grande 
and other Texas rivers that many might find interesting.
 
Matthew
 
From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com  
mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of 
Robert Wood
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:30 PM
To: Dwight Deal mailto:dirt...@comcast.net>>
Cc: John Corcoran III mailto:john_j_corcoran_...@msn.com>>; Lee Skinner mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>>; Evatt mailto:nmca...@centurylink.net>>; Cave Texas mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>; Cave NM mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] Jim Evatt nailed it.: Our beloved Rio Grande
 
Thanks, Dwight,
 
I am so glad to be getting info from you on the down stream side. 
 
Not sure if this is accurate but I heard that water is going over the spillway 
at Amistad Reservoir. and then flowing on out into the Gulf. Any accuracy in 
this? I Google 

Re: [Texascavers] McFrolicker's Lave Cave Number 1

[Pete Lindsley]

David, be aware that Ice Caves and Water Caves go away just as fast. You have 
to be quick to explore those ;-)

 - Pete


On Jul 16, 2018, at 10:26 PM, David  wrote:

This is a follow-up to my last post about a new lava cave.

I am sad to report that it looks like my newly found lava cave has been 
swallowed.

…

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] Cave rescue article by a former Expeditions Coordinator for the National Speleological Society

[Pete Lindsley]

The comments were interesting as well. Two good suggestions:
1. Fabric “diving bell” for the kids, fed by air hoses, in case the floods come
2. Find a low spot that a drill hole could reach, and drain the cave that way 
in addition to the pumps. But where?

 - Pete

On Jul 7, 2018, at 12:21 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:

Excellent article:


Cave rescues are extremely difficult. Cave diving is extremely dangerous. The 
combination is worse. 

Lee Skinner


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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave

[Pete Lindsley]

And after the last day’s reports of low O2, we found out that the Thai cave air 
pocket where the boys are located is likely not being refreshed with cave air, 
so there are likely sumps on both sides of their chamber. This fact, plus the 
unfortunate death of the Thai Seal Team diver, is illustrating the danger of 
caves known to quickly flood during heavy rains. I recall a previous instance 
decades ago in Rowland Cave, AR, where a rescue diver apparently died from the 
bends following a recent airplane travel to the site (where the cabin pressure 
is normally reduced) just prior to his dive.

I don’t think the lack of O2 in a poorly defined location would be an issue in 
FSC because of the strong cave wind. But this also illustrates the importance 
of future radio locations at possible locations for surface drill locations. We 
currently have an approved proposal to get a new radio location “off to the 
side” of Snowy River at station SRS556B, only about 1000 feet from the Midnight 
Junction camp which is just over 10 miles from the entrance. 

 - Pete

On Jul 5, 2018, at 4:52 PM, John Corcoran III  
wrote:

Thanks Pete.  At least it would be possible to drill a rescue portal if needed 
– and lots of places to stay above water.
 
Regards,
 
John
 
From: swrcav...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>> On Behalf Of 
Pete Lindsley
Sent: Thursday, July 5, 2018 12:13 PM
To: John Lyles mailto:j...@losalamos.com>>
Cc: Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>>; Geary Schindel 
mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org>>; Penelope 
Boston mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu>>; Lee Skinner 
mailto:skin...@thuntek.net>>; N E W L I S T Southwestern 
Cavers of the National Speleological Society mailto:swrcav...@googlegroups.com>>; Texascavers mailto:texascavers@texascavers.com>>; Sandia Grotto 
mailto:sandia-grotto-of-the-national-speleological-soci...@googlegroups.com>>
Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave
 
In Fort Stanton Cave the Aug 2014 team found that the water was very slowly 
flowing towards them when they were about halfway to MJ, and there was no 
danger here. It took about a month for the flow to reach Turtle Junction, an 
easy mile from the entrance. We may be able to determine if the Mud Lizard 
(~2.4 miles from the entrance) sumps during heavy flows, once we exchange the 
water loggers at this critical point. But if the area gets another storm like 
Hurricane Dolly, plus with the removal of vegetation following the Little Bear 
fire, we would expect the water to rise much faster. Pumping any water from FSC 
is impractical.
 
 - Pete
 
On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:46 PM, John Lyles mailto:j...@losalamos.com>> wrote:
 
But Ft. Stanton Cave in NM is definitely a place to be careful. Far south on 
Snowy River was being pushed and mapped in 2014, and by August it began 
flooding. Midnight Junction camp hasn't seen cavers   since then, although we 
are hoping the present drying trend remains at least until fall there.

Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=13130>
On Jul 3, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> wrote:
Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there have not 
been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point where they might 
cause some serious problems.  That does not mean that the caves won’t flood, 
just that the number that are likely to are pretty limited.  Vanishing River 
Cave, which drains many square miles of canyons upstream from its location, 
would certainly be considered a no-entry cave during flooding season.  I’ve 
been in Carlsbad (town) several times when there have been real frog strangling 
rain and the normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of 
rushing water.  Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential 
downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge Trail from 
the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got lost somewhere 
around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same night, arriving at the 
Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally drenched to the bone.  He hiked down 
the following day and I met up with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive 
him back into town.  The flooding was unbelievable!!  Other caves that lie in 
the bottom of major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who 
don’t pay attention to the weather.  A lot of the gyp caves and those like 
Spider Cave could be a real problem.  I also remember the day that I first 
dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and came back to the 
entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall pouring down the entrance drop 
and beginning to fill the canyon side of the 65’ deep drop.  It ended after the 
rain stopped, but it was certainly a wet climb out of there after that 
torrential event.  

Just a reminder

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave

[Pete Lindsley]

In Fort Stanton Cave the Aug 2014 team found that the water was very slowly 
flowing towards them when they were about halfway to MJ, and there was no 
danger here. It took about a month for the flow to reach Turtle Junction, an 
easy mile from the entrance. We may be able to determine if the Mud Lizard 
(~2.4 miles from the entrance) sumps during heavy flows, once we exchange the 
water loggers at this critical point. But if the area gets another storm like 
Hurricane Dolly, plus with the removal of vegetation following the Little Bear 
fire, we would expect the water to rise much faster. Pumping any water from FSC 
is impractical.

 - Pete

On Jul 4, 2018, at 5:46 PM, John Lyles  wrote:

But Ft. Stanton Cave in NM is definitely a place to be careful. Far south on 
Snowy River was being pushed and mapped in 2014, and by August it began 
flooding. Midnight Junction camp hasn't seen cavers   since then, although we 
are hoping the present drying trend remains at least until fall there. 

Sent from BlueMail 
On Jul 3, 2018, at 6:38 PM, Peter Jones mailto:pjca...@gwi.net>> wrote:
Having been a caver in the Guads for 49 years, I can say that there have not 
been a lot of issues of flooding of our caves to the point where they might 
cause some serious problems.  That does not mean that the caves won’t flood, 
just that the number that are likely to are pretty limited.  Vanishing River 
Cave, which drains many square miles of canyons upstream from its location, 
would certainly be considered a no-entry cave during flooding season.  I’ve 
been in Carlsbad (town) several times when there have been real frog strangling 
rain and the normally empty river beds have been boiling with torrents of 
rushing water.  Had to even drive up to McCollum’s Ranch in a torrential 
downpour to pick up a friend who decided to hike the Guadalupe Ridge Trail from 
the Lookout Tower to Carlsbad Caverns National Park and got lost somewhere 
around Putman Cabin and had to double back that same night, arriving at the 
Lookout Tower Cabin around 3 AM, totally drenched to the bone.  He hiked down 
the following day and I met up with him just before McCollum’s Ranch to drive 
him back into town.  The flooding was unbelievable!!  Other caves that lie in 
the bottom of major drainages could certainly be a major problem for cavers who 
don’t pay attention to the weather.  A lot of the gyp caves and those like 
Spider Cave could be a real problem.  I also remember the day that I first 
dropped into Andy’s Cave with Tom Meador into virgin cave and came back to the 
entrance a couple of hours later to a waterfall pouring down the entrance drop 
and beginning to fill the canyon side of the 65’ deep drop.  It ended after the 
rain stopped, but it was certainly a wet climb out of there after that 
torrential event.  

Just a reminder that we should all be careful about rain (and snow in the 
winter) when we go caving.

Peter





 On Jul 3, 2018, at 5:45 PM, Geary Schindel  
wrote:
 
 Penny,
  
 Yes, we’re trying to get our message out as most caves don’t respond to 
rainfall like this one does. However, we have had our share of rain induced 
tragedies and close calls in the US.  
  
 I’ve spent a lot of time looking at major rain events and collected some very 
interesting hydrograph data on the response of groundwater levels (and caves) 
to flooding. Many a day, I’ve walked away from caving in low lying caves when 
there is a chance of rain. When I worked for the NPS in the Mammoth Cave area, 
we worked a cave where the first 3,000 feet of passage would flood to the 
ceiling. The entrance was in the bottom of a large sinkhole that drained an 
area of about 300 acres. We watched the weather very carefully. The issue 
wasn’t when we were going in but when we came out the next morning. Hopefully, 
the weather forecast was accurate and wasn’t a problem. However, before 
crawling into the entrance series with the three low sumps, we would get our 
lamps charged and headed directly out.
  
 Water and flooding is a serious issue in karst and I’ve always thought that 
drowning in a cave would not reflect well on the career of a karst hydrologist.
  
 Geary Schindel
 gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
  
 From: Penelope Boston [mailto:penelope.bos...@nmt.edu] 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 4:33 PM
 To: Geary Schindel 
 Cc: Peter Jones ; Lee Skinner ; 
swrcavers@googlegroups com ; Texas Cavers 
; Sandia Grotto 

 Subject: Re: [SWR CAVERS] The rescue attempt is far from over in the Thai cave
  
 Dear all,
  
 I also hope that this ongoing potential tragedy that we hope becomes a joyous 
rescue can be used as a teaching moment. The 25 year old coach is to be 
commended for taking his kids on field trips but his obvious lack of 
understanding of how caves work in monsoon season is responsible for the 
situation. I hope that the international cave community can use this 
opportunity to explain the dangers of this particular instance 

Re: [Texascavers] Caving Article in the San Saba Star 1963

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

I remember that weekend. We checked out numerous sinks near Gorman Falls 
Fishing Camp, as it was called then. Somewhere I may have a slide of a cave 
entrance which looked like a well. There is likely information in the Texas 
Caver about that regional project.

 - Pete

On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Kris Pena via Texascavers 
 wrote:

The August 26, 1963 issue of the San Saba Star had an excellent article titled: 
"Spelunkers will explore caves in area during holiday weekend". 

It includes such important warnings as "if you see heads popping out of the 
ground, you are not losing your mind" and asked landowners to report any caves 
and "a dirty, but courteous caver will appear at your door"

Does anybody happen to have a high quality scan of this issue? It's referred to 
in 50 Years of Texas Caving and I found a copy on newspapers.com 
, but the quality isn't great. On the off chance that 
someone has a higher quality scan, I'd love to get a copy of it before our 
presentation at Colorado Bend's Heritage Day this weekend. It would be an 
awesome addition to our presentation! Thanks!

Kris Pena
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR CAVERS] RE: BOG Agenda Item 6-Tell your BOG to Vote NO

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

For the 2009 NSS Convention & ICS at Kerrville, TX, we had a different problem. 
The beer was free, thanks to Bill Steele and his associates that hauled it 
around, and thanks to FB who acquired the beer in the first place. Such a deal, 
and I didn't mind at all helping with the operation that offered ~ 7 different 
labels during Convention week. 

The problem arose on the hot afternoon of the first NSS Convention Banquet 
when, as one of the previous week's helpers, I was fussed at because we ran out 
of beer, or so the hot people standing in line in the hot Texas sun thought. 
Ditto the 2nd ICS Convention Banquet. Well, we had plenty of (free) cold beer 
ready to bring out to the banquet being held out of town at a ranch. The untold 
story was that we were told that morning that "The NSS does not serve beer at 
the Banquet, only wine." We were informed that this was a hard and fast (and 
unknown) rule of the NSS. Our crew finally decided it was mostly politics, akin 
to the current discussion where some in the NSS want to micro-manage what you 
can and cannot drink at "their convention". It is certainly true that the local 
sponsors of an NSS activity should be the ones that do the managing, not 
someone 15 states away. Of course the wine wasn't exactly cold or 
thirst-quenching in the hot sun. I actually bought two bottles a few days later 
(they had do recover their costs) at the close of the convention. I decided it 
was not worth the $10. I paid for a bottle. 

 - Pete

On Jun 12, 2017, at 2:25 PM, Carol Belski wrote:

Well worded, Phyllis!  It seems to me that buying beer (or wine) for an event 
can be a tricky planning problem (kind of like how many spaghetti noodles to 
cook!).  I know often the Howdy Party beverages can be overestimated but they 
are still paid for.  You can’t send it back.  For heaven’s sake, let the 
participants indulge a little the next evening or whenever, as long as state 
and local ordinances are complied with.  Hard liquor is more expensive and also 
harder to estimate how much to buy since there is such a wide range of 
products. It also takes a different liquor license. Let people buy their own 
hard liquor.  I don’t recall it ever being provided at Convention, but I 
haven’t been to all of them.

I do remember one time when supplies of beer and soda ran out very early on 
during a Howdy Party, making everyone wonder who the hell had screwed up on 
planning.  There should be ample amounts of soda and water available as well as 
beer.  I have never been a fan of wine, but if it is served, let’s maybe save 
it for the banquet and keep the quantities limited (people need to be able to 
drive the next morning, after all).

Carol Belski


> On Jun 12, 2017, at 1:46 PM, Phyllis Boneau  wrote:
> 
> From Wm's reply I conclude the concern is more about hard liquor.  If that is 
> the question, the motion should come right out and say no supplying hard 
> liquor instead of pussyfooting around about WHEN exactly alcoholic beverages 
> can be served instead of WHAT alcoholic beverages can be served.  
> (I dislike beer and find a great lack of "coke" at convention gatherings.)
> 
> Did I miss a point here?
> 
> Phyllis Boneau
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 11, 2017 at 9:16 PM, Lee H. Skinner  wrote:
> All,
> 
> 
> I see no problem with people bringing their own beer to the convention, and 
> if it saves the NSS over $7500, I think that's all the better.  Thanks, 
> William, for your reasonable explanation.
> 
> Lee Skinner
> 
> 
> On 6/11/2017 8:48 PM, mcvittetoe via Southwestern Cavers of the National 
> Speleological Society wrote:
>> OOPS, I messed up on that last email. I ment to say. To all of you booze 
>> hounds out there. I don't like paying more for conventions that use more of 
>> something that I do not use!!! I feel that if you want booze at 
>> the convention you should pay for it!
>> 
>> Marion Vittetoe said that.
>> 
>> In a message dated 6/11/2017 4:26:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
>> rckee...@cox.net writes:
>> 
>> Wm,
>> 
>>  
>> I am ashamed of you by trying to change the topic to “we’re so poor”.  This 
>> is a Convention budgeting issue, not an NSS dictating issue  … and 
>> especially after the BOG voted at the March meeting that NSS Conventions 
>> must budget for a profit.
>> 
>>  
>> The people at the Conventions are the movers and shakers of the NSS.  These 
>> are the very people who have made caves and the NSS their lives.  These are 
>> the people, who, after donating hundreds of hours each year, and many, many 
>> dollars, want to enjoy talking with their friends.
>> 
>>  
>> Everyone.  Let’s make this clearer.  The NSS is not poor and this is our 
>> national Convention.  Go to the just published Secretary-Treasurer report at 
>> https://caves.org/nss-business/reports/1706/S-T-1706.pdf  Go to Attachment A 
>> which has all of the National Speleological Foundation (NSF) funds. 
>> 
>> We have an 

Re: [Texascavers] GPS Navigation gadgets

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

James, my information from the Apple app review indicated that this app does 
not support tracks (like iHike) and that some of the maps are rather old. I 
guess that depends on exactly where the maps come from. On iHike Larry James 
converts "his" PICT maps (I think that is the format) from various maps 
available on the internet. Topo Maps is also said to have issues importing a 
standard gpx file. Maybe the developer just doesn't update the app very often, 
and sometimes the older maps may be what you want. I get multiple updates on 
iHike every year.

 - Pete

On May 30, 2017, at 2:55 PM, JAMES JASEK via Texascavers wrote:

I use an app in my iPhone called Topo Maps: It really is a fantastic app as you 
can load in any Topo Maps of all of American and it is just part of the app. 
Maps can be loaded as a small map, but I recommend using the full topo maps. 
This way the map  can be enlarged to see full detail.


The app was developed by Phil Endecott, a  Brit, and he does some caving and is 
an avid backpacker. He also replies to all emails. The app is fantastic and 
very very complete and will allow you to record cave locations. When maps are 
loaded in you can go from map to map seamless .

http://topomapsapp.com

There is more in this app than I can describe. Look hat the site I sent

James  Jasek


> On May 30, 2017, at 11:41 AM, Louise Power via Texascavers 
> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Charlie,
> 
> I may be (definitely am) old fashioned, but I still trust paper more than 
> electronics.
> 
> Louise
> 
> 
> From: Texascavers <texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com> on behalf of Charles 
> Loving via Texascavers <texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2017 4:17 AM
> To: Cavers Texas
> Cc: Charles Loving
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] GPS Navigation gadgets
> 
> Thank the gods some one can use maps. When Kim Jung Ding Batt destroyed the 
> GPS system.
> 
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:52 PM, PRESTON FORSYTHE via 
> Texascavers<texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
> Hey, topos are still in style. That is all I use. A topo with a cave location 
> is the simplest thing.
> 
> You have not navigated until the one klick grid is solid green and no contour 
> lines or blue lines and your life depended on knowing where your were. Ask me 
> how we did it and I will tell you a story at the NM convention coming up fast.
> 
> 
> Preston in KY
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, May 29, 2017 10:58 AM, Pete Lindsley via Texascavers 
> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Charles and David: I thought Navigon was a bit pricy, particularly since long 
> ago I had purchased iHike, following many years of use of MacGPS Pro on a 
> Mac. [https://www.ihikegps.com/]  "No charges for Maps…Ever" . Download your 
> maps when you have internet access. Take track logs and set waypoints in the 
> field, and if you missed a map you can download it later to see where that 
> new-found cave waypoint is located. Sailors will be interested in a related 
> IOS application called iSail. Larry James does a great job updating his apps 
> and listens to his user's suggestions.
> 
> - Pete
> 
> On May 28, 2017, at 6:12 PM, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers wrote:
> 
> I'd suggest using your smartphone, and IMHO, google maps is superior to 
> anything else, including the dedicated ones.  The fact that it's always 
> updating and you can send corrections as well is great.
> 
> It will do offline mapping, but it isn't the best at that.  I do keep another 
> app on my iPhone as a backup that has offline maps, Navigon.
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:12 PM, David via Texascavers 
> <texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
> This may surprise the young cavers, but just about 5 years ago, most cavers 
> did not have any kind of street navigation gadget in their cars.
> 
> I can only guess that 40% either have a dedicated navigation gadget in their 
> car,  or they mount their large smartphone or phablets in a bracket.
> 
> I hope to purchase a dedicated navigation gadget this week.
> 
> Anybody have any tips ?
> 
> Is a touch-screen an important feature ?
> 
> Is a slim model an important feature ?
> 
> Does brand matter ?
> 
> Why not just get a 2nd phone line ?
> 
> David Locklear
> dlocklea...@gmail.com
> 
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Re: [Texascavers] GPS Navigation gadgets

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Charles and David: I thought Navigon was a bit pricy, particularly since long 
ago I had purchased iHike, following many years of use of MacGPS Pro on a Mac. 
[https://www.ihikegps.com/]  "No charges for Maps…Ever" . Download your maps 
when you have internet access. Take track logs and set waypoints in the field, 
and if you missed a map you can download it later to see where that new-found 
cave waypoint is located. Sailors will be interested in a related IOS 
application called iSail. Larry James does a great job updating his apps and 
listens to his user's suggestions.

 - Pete

On May 28, 2017, at 6:12 PM, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers wrote:

I'd suggest using your smartphone, and IMHO, google maps is superior to 
anything else, including the dedicated ones.  The fact that it's always 
updating and you can send corrections as well is great.

It will do offline mapping, but it isn't the best at that.  I do keep another 
app on my iPhone as a backup that has offline maps, Navigon.


On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:12 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
This may surprise the young cavers, but just about 5 years ago, most cavers did 
not have any kind of street navigation gadget in their cars.

I can only guess that 40% either have a dedicated navigation gadget in their 
car,  or they mount their large smartphone or phablets in a bracket.

I hope to purchase a dedicated navigation gadget this week.

Anybody have any tips ?

Is a touch-screen an important feature ?

Is a slim model an important feature ?

Does brand matter ?

Why not just get a 2nd phone line ?

David Locklear
dlocklea...@gmail.com

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Re: [Texascavers] Mailing list issues

[Pete Lindsley]

Jay, I have lots of big attachments dealing with the ~ 400 page Fort Stanton 
book which we hope to have by the NSS Convention. [http://fscsp.org/12-MILES/] 

 - Pete

On Mar 14, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Jay Jorden wrote:

Charles, you da man! Thanks for everything you do. 
Pete, you're so popular - I'm still at 67% on Gmail.
Cheers,
Jay


On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:52 PM, Charles Goldsmith <wo...@justfamily.org> wrote:
Probably unrelated, I received a ton of bounce messages over the last 24-36 
hours.  I cleared all of the emails marked as bounce and sent out the test, so 
far, we haven't received any issues.  I'm hoping it was just a fluke, but time 
will tell.

Thanks for the feedback!

On Tue, Mar 14, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Pete Lindsley <caverp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Charles, FYI, I looked closely at my gmail account when I got the auto notice. 
It was 102% "full" at 15 GB, so I deleted about 700 old e-mails with 
attachments to fix it. Don't know if that caused any issues, but it took me 
over an hour to delete those files on gmail.

 - Pete

On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

Over the past 24 hours, we've had a lot of issues with the mailing list.  About 
half of our members email addresses were bouncing and the software will 
unsubscribe after too many bounced messages.  Most of the email addresses 
affected were gmail, yahoo and hotmail, with a few others thrown in from ymail, 
outlook, msn, aol, etc.

From the errors, looks like AOL triggered some anti-spam when a message from an 
email address there sent one to the list.

I'm going to monitor things closely and make changes as needed to keep the list 
going.

Sorry for the inconvenience to anyone who may have missed any messages.

You can see the online archives at the following:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cavetex
http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ 

Please let me know if you have any questions

Charles Goldsmith
list admin
wo...@justfamily.org

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Re: [Texascavers] Mailing list issues

[Pete Lindsley]

Charles, FYI, I looked closely at my gmail account when I got the auto notice. 
It was 102% "full" at 15 GB, so I deleted about 700 old e-mails with 
attachments to fix it. Don't know if that caused any issues, but it took me 
over an hour to delete those files on gmail.

 - Pete

On Mar 14, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

Over the past 24 hours, we've had a lot of issues with the mailing list.  About 
half of our members email addresses were bouncing and the software will 
unsubscribe after too many bounced messages.  Most of the email addresses 
affected were gmail, yahoo and hotmail, with a few others thrown in from ymail, 
outlook, msn, aol, etc.

From the errors, looks like AOL triggered some anti-spam when a message from an 
email address there sent one to the list.

I'm going to monitor things closely and make changes as needed to keep the list 
going.

Sorry for the inconvenience to anyone who may have missed any messages.

You can see the online archives at the following:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/cavetex
http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ 

Please let me know if you have any questions

Charles Goldsmith
list admin
wo...@justfamily.org

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Re: [Texascavers] mistaken send

[Pete Lindsley]

Bill, the Sandia Grotto has an appointed "greeter" plus with only ~ 20 at a 
meeting we have time to go around the room to introduce ourselves with a name 
and short statement. Easy enough to promote the NSS if someone is in charge of 
doing this, or appointing someone else if they can't make it.

 - Pete

On Mar 5, 2017, at 4:40 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:

The UT Grotto "phone list" contains over 90 NSS numbers. This list is not 
really a membership list, but a contact list. Hard to prune it because we don't 
require dues payment, and anyway we want everybody on it we might see at a 
party. I suspect that some of those are not currently really NSS members. Would 
not be hard to check, because the NSS members manual (membership list) is 
sorted by states. (My copy of that has not yet come to current digs.) Or 
there's the Member Search page on the NSS web site (Member Portal->Member 
Central->Member Search); just type an NSS number, click submit.

Before my recent medical adventures, I was taking NSS brochures to every UT 
Grotto meeting, but most new people probably didn't see them at the back of the 
room. But at least that was something.
-- Mixon

Nature is a hanging judge.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] caving dreams

[Pete Lindsley]

Interesting story, David. Did you see a similar incident at Punkin Cave?

 - Pete

On Mar 3, 2017, at 11:39 AM, David wrote:

Do any of you ever have really weird or bizarre caving dreams ?

The story below is a true recollection, if the memory of the dream is correct.

I seldom remember my dreams, but the one last night was very vivid and as 
realistic as my experiences in regular life, and in the end was frightening.   
I remember parts of it clearly 8 hours later. 



It started with a friend and I and 2 unknown European cavers ridge-walking in a 
fancy rich neighborhood of billion-dollar palaces built into the cliffs of some 
Chinese-like karst pinnacles in what was supposed to be an unmapped desert 
region of Chechnya.

But then we came up on an undiscovered cave and just inside the entrance was a 
slope leading to tropical-like pit in the twilight-zone that was unlike 
anything I have ever seen.   It had a bizarre metal rung cable-ladder a foot 
wide leading down the very steep slope for nearly 100 feet to a metal spike 
about 1-1/2" in diameter and 18 inches long angled 30 degree upwards.

The 2 European guys were convinced the pit was only 450 feet and I said that I 
sensed it was over a thousand feet. But none of us threw a rock down the pit.   
One caver had a 300 foot rope and the other a 100 foot rope.They were mad 
at me because the week before  I was supposedly driving from Mazatlan eastward 
solo across the western Sierra Madres, and I was supposed to stop in Nuevo 
Laredo and get my 1,000 foot rope which had been in storage rental unit there 
for years.
[ real life - have a 600 footer in a storage unit in Brenham ]

Anyways the 2 European cavers began to rig the bizarre pit with just one 
tie-off to the giant metal spike.[ And I am quite certain that in the 
dream, I said to myself, "oh, no, this is going to be like the Punkin Incident. 
But I was going to follow their lead, nevertheless. ] Neither of the 
riggers had followed any safety protocol whatsoever, and both quickly fell into 
the pit becoming entangled in knotted rope about 30 feet down and 50 feet down. 
  Chaos ensued.   My other caving friend behind me at the entrance ran to get 
help.
The smooth limestone wall of the pit that had been near vertical, suddenly 
seemed slightly less vertical with pitted handholds.  And so, I preceded to try 
some free-climbing - something I could never do in real life.   But then the 
mysterious cable-ladder had suddenly vanished.  

Any kind of rescue at that point was futile and the chances of me safely 
climbing out of the cave began to fade.

And that is when I woke up breathing quite heavily.
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Re: [Texascavers] lidar in caves

[Pete Lindsley]

Not only has Joe done work in Texas, he has also come out to NM to assist our 
teams in Fort Stanton Cave where we made him wade through some water and mud to 
get back to Don Sawyer Memorial Hall, about a mile into the cave. His 3D data 
has complimented the 3D mesh of sections of the cave where we have been slowly 
building a 3D simulation of both the historic parts of the cave and also a 
section of Snowy River. Ron Lipinski started the Caver Quest simulation work 
five years ago and we have graduated from the original Suunto cave survey 
without a mesh to two generations of LIDAR instruments made by Bob Buecher. We 
have significantly shortened the original process both with the LIDAR hardware, 
the photography panoramas and the computer processing techniques. Exact 
photography in some of the most interesting areas is augmented by "generic 
wallpaper" for some stretches of cave passage where logistics of the LIDAR 
units are not yet appropriate. Use of the Buecher LIDAR units in the cave is 
more like using a transit on a tripod and the units generate the 3D mesh out to 
20-25 meters from the tripod. Bob's latest LIDAR unit is smaller, lighter and 
more rugged than my old K transit.

If  you are interested, here is a link to the web page where you can download 
Caver Quest for PCs or Macs: [http://FSCSP.org/CQ6/].

 - Pete

On Mar 1, 2017, at 9:15 AM, Mixon Bill wrote:

The March NSS News, now newly available to NSS members at caves.org, has an 
article about using conventional LIDAR data to survey a cave. A considerably 
easier way to do that is described in an article in the Journal of Cave and 
Karst Studies at 
https://caves.org/pub/journal/PDF/v76/cave-76-03-191.pdf .
However, the article is from Australia, and I don't know that the equipment or 
software are available in the US. -- Mixon

Nature is a hanging judge.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Thanks Bill & Katherine, for the new info. I think some of the google links I 
found were way out of date. BTW, I have a PC as well, but haven't used it much 
since M$oft downloaded Winders10 on it after I clicked "NO". The computers are 
side-by-side so a sneaker-net USB will work just fine, and the PC screen is 
just as good as the two on the Mac. Another question: does periscope work in 
landscape format like "standard" video? On an iPhone on most feeds you just 
rotate it to landscape and the video does the same. The google material I saw 
was all portrait format. 

Sorry, I forgot how the new TC strips out your info.

 - Pete Lindsley
   Texas caver now living in the part of NM that was still Texas back in 1845 
(East of the Rio Grande)


On Sep 2, 2016, at 11:17 AM, Mixon Bill via Texascavers wrote:

Pete whoever you are -- Periscope works just fine on a computer. You were 
probably fooled by the links to download apps for iOS or Android. Just click 
the damn play button. That said, don't expect full-screen fidelity on a large 
screen. The video was sent in real time to Periscope from an iPhone. I have no 
way of knowing how large a file Periscope archives, but it certainly wouldn't 
be the several hundred megabytes a high-res video of that length would require.

It would be nice if someone who can figure out how would make a permanent 
archive in .mp4 format of all these talks so we wouldn't have to rely on 
Periscope, which might or might not be around as long as the .mp4 format lasts. 
They could be placed, as files of reasonable length, on some Texas caving 
organization's web site and kept on disk in the TSS archives. Failing that, at 
least some popular Texas caving website should maintain a catalog of them with 
links to Periscope version. Or of course both could be done. -- Mixon

Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Aubri, thanks for the additional information on the presentation made a few 
days ago. At least Ben's presentation was archived and now I better understand 
the process. Apparently Periscope does not currently support computers with 
large screens, but it does support folks with either an IOS or Android device, 
mostly smart phones plus some tablets. If they can figure out how to support 
desktop computers like PCs, Macs and Linux it will then be available to many, 
many more folks. 

I found this youtube explanation that might be of interest to cavers without 
smart phones and iPads during the exact time the broadcast is "live", although 
you would still need such a device to display it on your "full size" computer 
screen.  [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99rxZKdzDkM]. There are also other 
methods discussed on youtube that are specific to certain computers and 
browsers that can install certain browser extensions, but some of these may be 
out of date now as it appears that FB wants to keep control of this method of 
broadcast. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jrEhi7kTN8],  
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3JqAcALR0c] & 
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLnXIjRzAJ4].

I find the NSS Webinar presentations much more useful, and they are archived in 
a manner that makes them available to a much larger audience 24/7.

 - Pete
DFWG
Sandia Grotto
Porcupine Grotto

On Sep 1, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Aubri Jenson via Texascavers wrote:

For those that have asked, Ben Schwartz' presentation on Tears of the Turtle 
exploration in Montana has been archived and is available here: 
https://www.periscope.tv/UTGrotto

Aubri Jenson
UT Grotto Vice Chair

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 12:31 PM, Pete Lindsley via Texascavers 
<texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
Aubri, would it be possible to mention the more exact TIME plus perhaps the 
DATE via texascavers.com e-mail? This seems like a very interesting program.

You are keeping us old time cavers that don't have time to tweet, twitter, 
facebook, and the users of the other half dozen time-wasters and security holes 
in the dark. 

 - Pete
   NSS#5566

On Aug 28, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Aubri Jenson via Texascavers wrote:

Greetings, cavers!

At the grotto meeting this week, Benjamin Schwartz will present on cave 
exploration in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Montana! This includes Tears of the 
Turtle, the deepest known cave in the continental US at over 1,600 ft below 
ground surface. It is a challenging cave not only for its depth, but for cold 
temperatures, sucking mud, and a 22 mile hike to get to the entrance. In July, 
Ben was part of a team that camped at the bottom of Tears to continue 
survey...and it still goes!

Note: We will continue meeting in Burdine 116 for the Fall semester. (This was 
what UT assigned, possibly due to renovations in Painter Hall.) 

The presentation portion of the grotto meeting will be live streamed via 
Periscope https://www.periscope.tv/utgrotto at approximately 8:30pm CST (the 
actual time will be announced via Twitter @UTGrotto). 
***
The meeting is at 7:45pm in Burdine 116. Follow this link to a map of where the 
building is located on the University of Texas campus: 
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/bur.html

For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see 
www.utgrotto.org

Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy 
hour specials. This is the best place to park and meet folks walking over to 
the meeting. After the meeting we continue with the decades long tradition to 
reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East! 
www.posse-east.com

See you there!

Cheers, 
Aubri Jenson
UT Grotto Vice-chair

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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología AC. via 
Texascavers wrote:

Do you have the dates of that accident?
do you know is someone write an article about it? could you please share with me

Mónica Ponce

2016-08-31 11:57 GMT-05:00 Charles Loving via Texascavers 
:
A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon with 
a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The flashlight 
lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.

I have heard they are under water.


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-- 
Charlie Loving

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-- 
LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ
Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS
Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS
Directora de MP- Mex Caving
Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)
Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)
Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)
Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)
Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)
Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)
Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)
Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)

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Re: [Texascavers] UT Grotto Meeting

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Aubri, would it be possible to mention the more exact TIME plus perhaps the 
DATE via texascavers.com e-mail? This seems like a very interesting program.

You are keeping us old time cavers that don't have time to tweet, twitter, 
facebook, and the users of the other half dozen time-wasters and security holes 
in the dark. 

 - Pete
   NSS#5566

On Aug 28, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Aubri Jenson via Texascavers wrote:

Greetings, cavers!

At the grotto meeting this week, Benjamin Schwartz will present on cave 
exploration in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, Montana! This includes Tears of the 
Turtle, the deepest known cave in the continental US at over 1,600 ft below 
ground surface. It is a challenging cave not only for its depth, but for cold 
temperatures, sucking mud, and a 22 mile hike to get to the entrance. In July, 
Ben was part of a team that camped at the bottom of Tears to continue 
survey...and it still goes!

Note: We will continue meeting in Burdine 116 for the Fall semester. (This was 
what UT assigned, possibly due to renovations in Painter Hall.) 

The presentation portion of the grotto meeting will be live streamed via 
Periscope https://www.periscope.tv/utgrotto at approximately 8:30pm CST (the 
actual time will be announced via Twitter @UTGrotto). 
***
The meeting is at 7:45pm in Burdine 116. Follow this link to a map of where the 
building is located on the University of Texas campus: 
http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/bur.html

For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see 
www.utgrotto.org

Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy 
hour specials. This is the best place to park and meet folks walking over to 
the meeting. After the meeting we continue with the decades long tradition to 
reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East! 
www.posse-east.com

See you there!

Cheers, 
Aubri Jenson
UT Grotto Vice-chair

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Re: [Texascavers] Server problems :

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Thanks Joe. These guys are usually pretty prompt on past requests. Another cave 
site on the same server is cavebooks.com.

 - Pete

On Jun 12, 2016, at 4:09 PM, via Texascavers wrote:

The hosting company just responded to me for TCMA to say they are aware of the 
outage and are working to resolve it. Seems to be a wide outage for them. 

Joe
jran...@gmail.com

On Jun 12, 2016, at 5:06 PM, jran...@gmail.com wrote:

> Last I checked several of us used the same hosting provider. We are looking 
> into the issue and should know more soon. 
> 
> Joe
> 
> On Jun 12, 2016, at 3:03 PM, Jerry via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
>> There seems to be an epidemic of server-related problems that are effecting 
>> several cave-related sites. Folks are having problems with the TCMA, TSS, 
>> TSA, and at least one out-of-state site. Please have your web IT folks have 
>> a look at it.
>> 
>> Thanks !
>> 
>> Jerry Atkinson
>> jerryat...@aol.com
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[Texascavers] Ice Cave Featured Today on Bing Search Engine Home Page

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Take a look at the Glacier cave in Oregon's Three Sisters Wilderness:

[https://www.bing.com/search?q=three+sisters+wilderness=hpcapt=HpDate%3a%2220160517_0700%22]

 - Pete
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Re: [Texascavers] Good Article --- Sandia Man Cave

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Thanks Carl! This is the first mention of the cave after last year's cleanup. 
In the recent past the cave was such a mess no one seemed to care about the 
mess inside. For more information on the cleanup project take a look here 
[http://caves.org/grotto/sandia/Sandia_Cave/] with a much shorter URL. I just 
linked Ty Bannerman's article to our web page that goes into more detail about 
the cleanup. 

An article has been submitted for the NSS News Conservation Issue, so we all 
may see more information on the cave later this year.

 - Pete

On Feb 19, 2016, at 10:45 AM, Carl Kunath via Texascavers wrote:

This incredibly long URL will take you an interesting article about Sandia Man 
Cave near Albuquerque, NM.
===Carl Kunath
 
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/enter-sandia-man-revisiting-the-site-of-a-20th-century-archeological-scandal?utm_source=Atlas+Obscura_campaign=ba6d90fe5d-Newsletter_2_19_20162_18_2016_medium=email_term=0_62ba9246c0-ba6d90fe5d-60404097=t(Newsletter_2_19_20162_18_2016)_cid=ba6d90fe5d_eid=4a86218c00

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. 
www.avast.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Secrecy

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Great comments, Travis!

Since I moved out of the state I have worked with the TSS to go through my 
Texas cave files and archive what they wanted. On some large maps that were 
going to be scanned, I asked for a digital copy back after scanning. In the 
case of ancient material, like the Powell's Cave original survey data, I did 
not ask for digital copies back in return since the data was in good hands. Of 
course during the file reviews some additional information was passed on to the 
new leaders of some current projects both in and out of Texas. So just a TSS 
review of old cave files while you are still kicking can be a great help to the 
historical archive of the cave and can contribute to work being done today that 
you thought you finished 50 years ago.

I also support paying very close attention to the cave owner's request when 
they allow you onto their private property. I think the TSS can play an 
important part in keeping up good owner relationships. When I started caving in 
1960 all we had was Bulletin 10 on Texas Caves, published in 1947 as I recall. 
But by the 1960s almost all of these caves were either closed or had been long 
forgotten during land owner changes. So each time we visited the new owner we 
had to re-establish that personal level of communication to gain access. Some 
access took over a decade to get back in. One time I was in the position of 
re-visiting a cave that I had gated and the new owner was complaining that some 

Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] New? Cave near Wind Cave SD

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

What caught my interest was mention of the platygonus. Back in the 1960s when 
we first went down the 24 core hole in Georgetown, TX, into Laubach Cave (now 
Inner Space), the first bones for this cave with no modern entrance that we 
found were from a rather large population of platygonus compressus. Dr. Laubach 
gave us permission to extract the bones because TXDOT said the cave would be 
closed over forever by I-35 and told Laubach there was nothing of value in 
this small cave. Bob Slaughter of the SMU Paleontology Dept. went with us to 
the cave for the next 3 months of weekends and excavated many bones. Previously 
the largest deposit of these animals was found in a cave in Missouri.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platygonus]

 - Pete

On Jun 9, 2015, at 12:33 PM, jasonw...@gmail.com wrote:

 platygonus, an extinct relative of the modern-day peccary
 

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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR-TX - SG] Huge Lava Tubes Could Exist on the Moon

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

1. drones
2. carbide lights
3. Suuntos  Bruntons
4. Disto-X
5. GPS
6. compass  pace
.
.
.
.
.
.
.








Maybe not.. How about calibrated string?





 - Pete

On Mar 20, 2015, at 11:24 AM, Lee H. Skinner wrote:

How would one survey such a cave?  What types of light would you use?  :-) 

http://spaceref.com/moon/huge-lava-tubes-could-exist-on-the-moon.html

Lee Skinner
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] [SWR-TX - SG] Huge Lava Tubes Could Exist on the Moon

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Might work if we can modify the ability of the cavers to get close enough to 
see through the telescope and at the same time be able to spot the dot on the 
far wall. Perhaps a solar-powered ground drone with a long cable plus a 3D 
goggle 1st person view receiver (like they used to use on those toy drones in 
the early 21st century) would let the cavers sit in their vehicle with their 
favorite beverage while operating the UMR (Underground Moon Rover).


On Mar 20, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Scott Nicolay wrote:

Total station. 
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Re: [Texascavers] [SWR] Huge Lava Tubes Could Exist on the Moon

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

I should clarify a bit, low gun. Obviously the weight of the carbide plus all 
the water required and the carbide dump cans would be almost as heavy as your 
Moonlight Towers. However if we expanded the size of a single 7 parabolic 
Justrite reflector to perhaps 70 feet (or meters) using a balsa wood or 
graphite frame with mirror-coated foil, we could make an Earthlight (or solar) 
power transmitter / transponder that could point into the tunnel entrance to 
power the UMR (Underground Moon Rover) with on-board solar panels from one of 
the previous lunar landers. This is a proven technique as you can see from a 
full review of this site. [http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread372633/pg1]



On Mar 20, 2015, at 2:20 PM, Logan McNatt wrote:

The historic Moonlight Towers in Austin seem appropriate, although they would 
require substantial modifications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlight_tower

Pete Lindsley was no doubt joking when he suggested carbide lamps, unless they 
have developed LED carbide lamps now.

Logan McNatt

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[Texascavers] SWR Joel Tom Meador Award

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

The SWR Webmasters have announced a new web page for the Meador Award:

http://caves.org/region/swr/jtm_award.html

This is the first year of the award, and it will be presented at the SWR Winter 
Tech meeting this Saturday in Las Cruces.

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Re: [Texascavers] Linkedin related + Yahoo

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

I had a similar problem with Yahoo 6 months ago. I thought I had deleted a 
yahoo account I used 15 years ago, but they undeleted it for me without 
asking. I had a 15-year old weak password, so when it was hacked about a month 
later, spam was sent out to 2600 contacts (from 15 years ago) . I called Yahoo, 
but got some dude in India that told me I couldn't delete either the account or 
the contact list; but for an undisclosed price he could do it if I gave him 
control of my much newer computer. He hung up after I replied fat chance. 
Fortunately I found the password for that past account, got in and replaced it 
with a new pswd, and finally after a lot of work figured out how to get rid of 
the extensive contact list. I NEVER let any site download my contact list and 
now I think I probably had some sort of hack or virus from 15 years ago that 
had to have come in through a strong company firewall, probably from a friend 
that also had a yahoo account, that let those yahoos suck in my contact list. 
Beware!

 - Pete
 
On Sep 14, 2014, at 12:10 AM, Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers wrote:

I used linkedin for about 5 minutes, when they kept digging through my contacts 
list, even after I told them I didn't want them to, I deleted the account.

I'd rather software not go pulling my contact lists without my permission.

I agree it's a good tool for many professions and for networking, but no thanks.

Charles
wo...@justfamily.org


On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 12:02 AM, David via Texascavers 
texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
If you are using Linkedin, please check your contact list
and look to see if CaveTex is one of your contacts, and delete
it if you wish.

Linkedin, is starting to p*ss me off.  The developers can not see the
forest for the trees. I have mentioned that before here.

I see it as a great tool for self-employed people like me, but it has become way
too intrusive and time consuming to manage.

Feel free to add me to your Linkedin wish, if you wish to.   I do not
think it will
let you, if you are using their free service.

David Locklear
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Re: [Texascavers] GPS recommendation?

[Pete Lindsley via Texascavers]

Frank, my comments.

1. Garmin has been the best for many years now, and is better supported by 
other software because they published their format before the others.
2. Some Garmin models allow you to take 10,000 track log points, which can 
later be downloaded. You can specify the distance increment or a time increment 
on the track log points (on some models) which makes it useful for making maps 
after you download them. WALLS supports Garmin downloads.
3. The larger units are better for old eyes, plus they float if you are a 
boater or hike along water sources. My current favorite is the Garmin 76CSx 
(which is probably out of production now).
4. Each Garmin track point has the time stamp plus the X, Y  Z location. Some 
other units only have the change from the starting track point, and do not 
provide a stand-alone location on each track record.
5. I use MacGPS on a Mac to interface with Garmin units. They have a good 
package for 7.5 minute USGS  FS quads for each state plus other areas.  
[http://www.macgpspro.com/index.php?id=141] Sorry no Mexico quads yet, but you 
could ask them. They also offer an iPhone product (iHike) and an iPad sailing 
product (iSailGPS) for the units with GPS.

 - Pete

On Jul 25, 2014, at 2:30 PM, Frank Binney via Texascavers wrote:

I’ve decided it’s finally time to abandon my luddite ways and join the GPS 
generation. Any recommendations on the best model for a caver/backpacker/river 
runner to buy? And is any particular model or brand better for use in Mexico?
Thanks,
Frank
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Fwd: [Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off

[Pete Lindsley]

Dwight, Charles may be able to help. I seem to be getting some of the 
traffic, but not like it used to be. I did a mail search on [Texascavers] and 
got the following:




If there were some way to access the server and see what had been sent out we 
could see if we missed anything. A month or so back I got a cryptic message 
from the server that it was bouncing my incoming messages, but I haven't had 
time to track that down. Now I can't find that message. I think Charles said 
the TC is on the NSS server now, and recently we had some issues with the SWR 
site that was on an NSS server that was upgraded or changed, so perhaps this is 
related. But when I tried to search Texascavers on that site I didn't have much 
luck.

 - Pete


Begin forwarded message:

From: dirt...@comcast.net
Date: June 10, 2014 12:04:27 PM MDT
To: Cave Texas Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off

Comcast has bounced me off. Since I no longer get posts from Texas Cavers, I am 
posting this in the blind.  Could the administrator contact me off list and 
advise if I have done the correct thing to get restablished?  
dirt...@comcast.net

 
 I am sure others have been caught by this.

 
It also affected the SWR Caver.Net remailer.

 
Steve Ball (SWR) wrote on 6/9/2014:

A couple of the big email sites (hotmail, aol, comcast) have begun to get a 
little more strict on who they accept mail from, and  unfortunately today, the 
server that sends you the caver.net lists found itself whacked by their checks. 
 I've made some updates that  should resolve things, and will be monitoring the 
situation in case it doesn't.  So don't panic if you receive an email 
suggesting your  subscription is disabled!


Bill Bentley just wrote:

 I went in and reinstated everyone who had been disabled, I can not 
however re subscribe anyone who was automatically unsubscribed.

 
I am assuming that I was not yet unsubscribed automatically from SWR, but it 
appears that I was from Texas Cavers.  I will wait to see if I get more posts 
from SWR and will go back in and try to re-subscribe to Texas cavers.

 
DirtDoc

Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] New World's Oldest Skeleton Found in the Yucatan

[Pete Lindsley]

(Corrected my e-mail address for CaveTex)

On May 16, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Pete Lindsley wrote:

Here's another link from this morning's Albuquerque Journal, with additional 
information from UNM which was involved in the dating process. They ran Dr. 
Victor Polyak's photo on the front page, so it was a nice surprise to see a 
local caver appear on the front page this morning. The web link 
[http://www.abqjournal.com/401125/news/dna-connects-first-americans-native-americans.html]
 also has Professor Yemene Asmerom's  picture in the article's photo 
collection. (The Fort Stanton Cave Study Project has been working with Victor 
and Yemene in dating some of the deposits in Fort Stanton Cave.) So, YES, we do 
know some of the cavers involved in this most interesting project. Great job 
guys!

 - Pete

On May 16, 2014, at 8:28 AM, Fofo wrote:

Yup, Beto Nava (yellow drysuit in the video/pictures) and Susan Bird (blue 
drysuit in the video/pictures) are very active divers in Monterey (the _other_ 
Monterey, the one in California) and cave divers in Mexico (and other places, 
but because of their research they've been diving a lot in Mexico recently).

They're both very nice and part (or the core group) of the Bay Area Underwater 
Explorers in Monterey.

Beto is in Mexico City today for a conference on this finding.

- Fofo


On 16/05/14 06:16, Preston Forsythe wrote:
 Video and story from today's WSJ.
 Do we know any of the cavers-cave divers?
 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303908804579563971867031520.html?mod=djemITP_h
 Preston in Muhlenberg Co., KY
 

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Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] New World's Oldest Skeleton Found in the Yucatan

[Pete Lindsley]

(Sorry, 2nd try to get my mail program working with correct caver e-mail 
address...)

On May 16, 2014, at 10:42 AM, Pete Lindsley wrote:

Here's another link from this morning's Albuquerque Journal, with additional 
information from UNM which was involved in the dating process. They ran Dr. 
Victor Polyak's photo on the front page, so it was a nice surprise to see a 
local caver appear on the front page this morning. The web link 
[http://www.abqjournal.com/401125/news/dna-connects-first-americans-native-americans.html]
 also has Professor Yemene Asmerom's  picture in the article's photo 
collection. (The Fort Stanton Cave Study Project has been working with Victor 
and Yemene in dating some of the deposits in Fort Stanton Cave.) So, YES, we do 
know some of the cavers involved in this most interesting project. Great job 
guys!

 - Pete

On May 16, 2014, at 8:28 AM, Fofo wrote:

Yup, Beto Nava (yellow drysuit in the video/pictures) and Susan Bird (blue 
drysuit in the video/pictures) are very active divers in Monterey (the _other_ 
Monterey, the one in California) and cave divers in Mexico (and other places, 
but because of their research they've been diving a lot in Mexico recently).

They're both very nice and part (or the core group) of the Bay Area Underwater 
Explorers in Monterey.

Beto is in Mexico City today for a conference on this finding.

- Fofo


On 16/05/14 06:16, Preston Forsythe wrote:
 Video and story from today's WSJ.
 Do we know any of the cavers-cave divers?
 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303908804579563971867031520.html?mod=djemITP_h
 Preston in Muhlenberg Co., KY
 

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Re: [SWR] Big Room

[Pete Lindsley]

Andy, Larry Register and I came up with several names which we added to Dry 
Pot, back on that fateful day in the 60's when we parted ways with Lee Skinner 
and Tom Meador and dropped down the 40 Foot Chimney. Perhaps that was also 
the day when Lee found the Skinner Chicken Route. 

The rooms Larry and I named around midnight included the Dallas Palace, the 
Vast Chamber, the Half Vast Chamber, the Chamber of the Vanishing Floor, and 
perhaps one or two others. Later I think Lee named Skinner's Attic.

 - Pete

On Apr 14, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Andy Komensky wrote:

Haqlfd Vast rings a bell

From: Harvey DuChene hrduch...@gmail.com
To: dirt...@comcast.net; 'Lee H. Skinner' skin...@thuntek.net 
Cc: 'SWR Mailing List' s...@caver.net; 'texascavers list' 
texascavers@texascavers.com 
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [SWR] Big Room

As I recall, there is a cave somewhere in New Mexico (Dry Cave, perhaps?) with 
a very small room, known as the “Vast Chamber.” I believe that the next room 
encountered in that passage was somewhat smaller, and was called the “Half Vast 
Chamber.” I also remember something about Donald Davis digging in some Fort 
Stanton breakdown and finding a smallish room. Upon entering this smallish 
room, he allegedly stated that “I’ve come into an Immense Chamber.” I think 
this quickly became known as “The Davis Chamber.” I suppose that, logically, 
the surname “Davis” must be synonymous with “Immense.”
 
HRD
 
From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of 
dirt...@comcast.net
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 7:10 AM
To: Lee H. Skinner
Cc: SWR Mailing List; texascavers list
Subject: [SWR] Big Room
 
Big Room
 Well, Lee, you DO know that in a number of caves I have found pretty little 
rooms.  In fact, I think you followed my instructions into one in the past, and 
grunting your way out (having given up trying to turn around in it), did agree 
that yes, it WAS pretty little.
 This small reminder from the one who also brought you the admonishment in the 
60s that No True Cavers Wear Kneepads!
 
(We will leave suck holes alone -)
 DirtDoc
 
From: Lee H. Skinner skin...@thuntek.net
To: SWR Mailing List s...@caver.net, texascavers list 
texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:59:01 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] My late night thoughts during insomnia
 
An observation about Karstbad Cavern: The cave swallows cave swallows.   

If blow holes are barometric, why aren't half of them called suck holes?

If The Big Room is a common name for a passage in caves,  why isn't The 
Little Room?

Do walking passages ever run or even stop walking?

Ever try to thread a gypsum needle?

Why aren't there more helicmites? Or cattooth spar?  or calcite yachts? 

Are fried egg stalagmites usually found with bacon?

Does any cave have a Gnu Section?  Where is Sinkhole de Mayo?

Is a filled in sinkhole called a sinkwhole?

Group names: herd, flock, pride, school, swarm, covey, murder, bevy, etc.  But 
what would you call a group of cavers?  I would suggest: column as cavers 
generally go single file, and it makes one think of a type of speleothem as 
well.

Lee Skinner

 

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Re: [Texascavers] Cave Entrance Photography with a Drone

[Pete Lindsley]

Preston, my son Steve has looked into doing this and has at least one 
quadcopter with a GoPro on it that he has footage from flying topside. He is 
working on a visual reality version with goggles that lets you have a view from 
the flying copter, but so far is not happy enough with the performance (range) 
to trust it in a cave. You would need extra battery capability to provide LED 
lighting, and his current Ver. 1 GoPro doesn't have sufficient light 
sensitivity to do the job in a dark cave. Sure, the off-the-shelf units can 
work fine if line-of-sight above ground. My Ver 2 GoPro has slightly better 
light sensitivity, but the $400 GoPro3+ might just do the job. It is slightly 
lighter than the earlier versions and they claim is more sensitive. 

So, before you go buy a copter and a camera, look for someone that already 
flies a quadcopter and talk them into helping.

 - Pete

On Mar 31, 2014, at 9:33 AM, Preston Forsythe wrote:

Has anyone out there used radio controlled model drones with a Go-Pro video 
camera to photograph big pits and/or big cave rooms?
 
I have looked into this a little and a Quad-drone with four electric engines, 
around 16 inches in diameter, 12 minute flight time, costs around $450. The 
camera is another $400 or so. A Quad-drone with a 30 minute flight time cost 
about $900.
 
In Huntsville, AL there is a RC Hobby store that is loaded with this stuff. The 
store is on Meridian St., 1/2 mile north of Lee High School where the NSS 
sessions will be during the July convention.
 
 
The latest Outside magazine sparked this interest.
 
 
 
Preston in Browder, KY

Re: [SWR] [Texascavers] a caver video

[Pete Lindsley]

Thanks, David! Very interesting.

Here are some other links to Nettlebed.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Cavers-reveal-NZs-deepest-cave-system/tabid/1160/articleID/330632/Default.aspx

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/11512/inside-nettlebed

http://cavingnews.com/20120303-new-zealand-stormy-pot-close-to-connection-with-nettlebed-cave-system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettlebed_Cave

 - Pete

On Feb 25, 2014, at 11:09 PM, David wrote:

A caver related video was uploaded a few hours ago to YouTube.

I am only posting this because it appears to be a fresh story:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvcQcaj4MAU

I will let someone else elaborate whether it is noteworthy or not,
as I am not familiar with the story, and only skimmed through the video.

David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] Mystery Cave #2

[Pete Lindsley]

Nope, been there and that's not it. What is pictured is a more impressive 
entrance.

 - Pete

On Feb 21, 2014, at 4:20 PM, Mark Minton wrote:

   I'll take a guess that it's Mesa de Anguila Sinkhole. I've never been 
there, but always wanted to.

Mark

At 05:00 PM 2/21/2014, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:

 Mystery Cave #2
 
 OK David and you other Texicans.  This is also the entrance to a Texas cave.  
 The scenery in the background will give you the clue that it is not very 
 close to Houston. The rancher is the guy with his back toward you on the 
 right - wearing the c'boy hat.
 
 It will be interesting to see who comes up with the correct answer, and THEN 
 find out if they actually have been there -.
 
 DirtDoc
 
 https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyxfeo87ogpjnj/Mystery%20cave%20%232.jpg

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

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Re: [SWR] From Today's Sound Off

[Pete Lindsley]

Same thing happened years ago when the Dallas Sierra Club was promoting the 
Guadalupe canyon  trail area up to the bowl in what is now the Guadalupe 
National Park. They brought bus loads of hikers out to the Guads and overran 
the trails, causing a great deal of consternation with the Carlsbad Caverns 
National Park biologists, etc. who were unofficially partially in charge of the 
then private ranch area. We had previously made some trips through the private 
land owner to look for caves. After the Sierra Club came out and created  
multiple trails and shortcuts it became a big mess. The rangers that took over 
when it finally became a new National Park had outlawed any cave or shelter 
entry (archaeological sites) and actually followed some of our cavers hiking up 
the mountain on a normal overnight backpack to make sure they stayed on the 
marked trail. At least the area finally became a National Park, and we were 
lucky that the SC hikers didn't burn down the ancient trees in the bowl.

 - Pete

On Feb 17, 2014, at 6:18 AM, Steve Peerman wrote:

All,
This was in this morning's (Monday, February 17, 2014) Sound Off  
(anonymous call-in column) in the Las Cruces Sun-News:  Don't think we need a 
national monument to protect the land?  In November, the Senior Center Hiking 
hikers here in Las Cruces hiked to Geronimo's Cave and saw about four or five 
stalactites chain-sawed off.

It's possible that the hikers saw historic vandalism in the cave, 
because it has a lot of old broken or sawed-off formations in the outer part of 
the cave.  But then again, it might be fresh damage to the cave.  The SWR had a 
regional last year where we tried to clean recent vandalism at Geronimo's Cave. 
 The supporters of the Organ Mountains -- Desert Peaks National Monument have 
been promoting Geronimo's Cave as one of the natural features that would be 
protected by the monument, but instead of protecting the cave, it has resulted 
in increased traffic to the cave and increased vandalism.  Sadly, the 
appearance of this statement in the Sound Off column will likely increase the 
pressure on the cave.  
I suspect that the Mesilla Valley Grotto will make a trip to the cave 
soon, perhaps with the BLM,  to see if this report is really fresh vandalism.   
 S-i-g-h.

Steve Peerman

Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you 
didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines, Sail away from 
the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.
   attributed to Mark Twain, but no record exists of his having written this.

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[Texascavers] Fwd: A look at Caverns newly discovered room

[Pete Lindsley]

Two short videos on the new room in Carlsbad...

Begin forwarded message:

From: Karen Lindsley karen4ca...@gmail.com
Date: November 19, 2013 1:57:55 AM MST
To: Lindsley Pete caverp...@gmail.com
Subject: A look at Caverns newly discovered room

I saw this story on KRQE.com and wanted to share it:

A look at Caverns newly discovered room

Tourists in southeastern New Mexico are getting their first glimpse at the 
newest discovery at Carlsbad Caverns National Park.

http://j.krqe.com/zvf94
http://www.krqe.com/news/local/new-room-discovered-in-carlsbad-caverns

Re: [Texascavers] Li- ion cordless drill battery

[Pete Lindsley]

You can also have your batteries rebuilt. A 36V Hilti NiCad battery rebuild 
costs about $108 via the internet, and I found a local Interstate Battery store 
that said they would do it for ~$80. An 18 V battery would run half that. 
Li-ion batteries are more expensive (if you can even find a rebuilder) and they 
take a special charger.

(I am using a Hilti hammer drill with tapered bull pins for digging projects 
here in NM. But if you get a cheap one off the internet count on it needing a 
new battery soon.)

 - Pete

On Nov 3, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Tom Rogers wrote:

Don't dispose of your bad cordless batteries. Take them apart and you can 
harvest 5- 10 18650 batts of which one or two might be shorted out.  I had 
three bad 18 volt batts. Now I have more caving batteries  than I can keep up 
with. Someone with more electrical knowledge might even be able to fix the 
cordless batteries, which was my original intention. Till I discovered that 
they were filled with 18650's. 
Tom


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Re: [SWR] Tom Meador Award

[Pete Lindsley]

So what happened to the Cave History Collection? Tom collected NM cave 
history as well as TX caves. Carl Kunath is probably a better representative of 
Texas Cave History, but perhaps Tom was the better known NM cave historian.

 - Pete

On Oct 23, 2013, at 11:49 AM, James Jasek wrote:

Tom was pretty much the Historian for the TSA, and he had a massive collection 
of memorabilia of caving, photography, postcards, literature of Texas and New 
Mexico in his collection. 

Collecting cave history was a passion for Tom. Since collecting an maintaing 
caving history is our window to the past, I feel the Tom Meador Award should be 
designed to encourage the collection of Texas  caving history. 

Tom was a personal friend and a really good fellow.

James Jasek

On Oct 23, 2013, at 12:37 PM, George Veni gv...@nckri.org wrote:

 I never had the pleasure of meeting Tom but have heard many great things 
 about him. One thing I haven't heard is about him focusing on mentoring new 
 cavers. If SWR will be developing an award for new cavers, then it should be 
 named for someone whose focus was new cavers, as in the case of Chuck Stuehm 
 in Texas. Maybe Tom fits that perfectly. I don't know one way or the other. 
 If not, I suggest naming the award for someone who better fits the award and 
 creating another award named for Tom that would honor him more by being more 
 appropriate to his strengths, interests, and accomplishments.
 
 George
 
 
 Sent from my mobile phone
 
 
 
 George Veni, Ph.D.
 Executive Director
 National Cave and Karst Research Institute
 400-1 Cascades Avenue
 Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
 USA
 Office: 575-887-5517
 Mobile: 210-863-5919
 Fax: 575-887-5523
 gv...@nckri.org
 www.nckri.org
 
 
 
 
  Original message 
 From: dirt...@comcast.net 
 Date: 2013/10/23 09:48 (GMT-07:00) 
 To: Harvey DuChene hrduch...@gmail.com 
 Cc: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net,s...@caver.net,Steve Peerman 
 gypca...@comcast.net,jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com 
 Subject: [SWR] Tom Meador Award 
 
 
 
 good idea, Harv!
 DirtDoc
 From: Harvey DuChene hrduch...@gmail.com
 To: Bill Bentley ca...@caver.net, Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net
 Cc: s...@caver.net, jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:07:49 AM
 Subject: Re: [SWR] PBSS member Kayde Hill wins Chuck Stuehm Awardat 
theTexas Cavers Reunion
 
 I recommend naming the award for legendary Tom Meador!
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Re: [Texascavers] Solo

[Pete Lindsley]

Well, that statement brings back a fond memory, again way deep in Proctor Cave, 
now connected to Mammoth Cave. 

Our survey team did the crawl, the 160' drops, the inner-tube assisted swim in 
wetsuits across Hawkins River deep spot, and a day's long survey of virgin 
passage. At the end of the day (likely around 2:00 am) we put up the 
instruments and headed off in four different directions checking the leads for 
a few hundred feet to guide the next team in two days later. I squeezed through 
a low place into walking passage and quickly found fresh footprints. I assumed 
they were from another team member that was just there minutes before. The next 
day I asked the other team members who had been in the walking passage I 
found. Not a one of them! I was kidded about Floyd Collins' ghost, and promptly 
forgot about the prints. As expedition leader, I stayed out 2 days later but 
sent in a strong team to continue our explorations. As I recall, Art and Peg 
Palmer were on that team, and they were given the goal of discovering the route 
through a breakdown to a secret cave I was just then learning about, a cave 
passage reached via another entrance just outside the Park. The team pushed 
through the breakdown and found the continuation of the Hawkins River passage, 
complete with footprints leading back to the other entrance. Although I knew 
some of the details, I did not know the exact timeline and was unable to put 
together the tidbits of information until many years later, when I read the 
book. Had I been to the solo footprints a couple of nights earlier, I may 
have met the other solo caver that also rejoined his team at the end of a long 
day and headed back out some rough cave to the sun the next morning. It wasn't 
Floyd I may have met, it was Don Coons.

 - Pete

On Sep 16, 2013, at 4:10 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:

 I was about to turn around and THERE, at the seeming end, was one foot print.  
 Clearly, another caver, also alone, had been here before.  Both of us 
carefully stepping...

Re: [Texascavers] Solo caving

[Pete Lindsley]

Dwight, remember the Turtle Hurdles? You, Karen and myself were off in the 
boonies at the edge of known cave, just past Kaemper's map of Mammoth Cave. We 
went just past long ago footsteps, through an apparent virgin area, and into an 
area where we starting to see signs of human scuffs again. We knew that 
commercial cave was somewhere above us but had no idea how to get there. It was 
~ 3:00 am and the choice was to push on for a couple of hours or head out of 
the cave the way we came in. So we sent you off into the void and took a short 
nap. Waking in the cold, we thought we could hear you coming back  for 
about 45 minutes! It was just water dripping and sounding like someone coming. 
Same thing I have heard several times before, when alone or with others in 
remote parts of a known cave. You finally showed up and we left for the 
entrance the way we came in. 

Was that the time breakfast the next morning at 10:00 am was sweet  sour SPAM? 
(The camp crew ate all the good stuff and spammed us :-(  ) The next time back 
there was with the Callot brothers a year after the 1981 Bowling Green ICS, 
when we actually came in from the other side after we knew where our survey had 
taken us. Another great trip when I learned 1, 2, 3 flash in French. That was 
before Firefly or radio syncs were invented.

 - Pete

On Sep 13, 2013, at 10:13 AM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote:

There is a certain peacefulness.  And quiet satisfaction.
 
DirtDoc
 

Re: [SWR] Cave Diving in NM

[Pete Lindsley]

The ABQ-J had an article this morning at 
[http://www.abqjournal.com/261604/sports/go/mystery.html]

Also of interest to cavers and hikers is another article on a water purifier: 
[http://www.abqjournal.com/261603/sports/go/purifier-cleans-water-even-if-its-foggy.html]

 - Pete

On Sep 11, 2013, at 8:30 PM, jen . wrote:

From a facebook posting

The ADM Exploration Team is headed to Santa Rosa, NM to explore Santa Rosa Blue 
Hole beyond the gate. 

Press Release from the City of Santa Rosa 
-http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cave-exploring-scuba-team-to-dive-into-a-new-mexico-mystery-2013-09-11

ADM Exploration Team project page 
-http://www.admfoundation.org/projects/santarosa/santarosa.html




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Re: [SWR] Lost and found

[Pete Lindsley]

One time I lost a cheap digital watch in Fitton Cave. A few months later we 
were back at the same place on the next survey trip and one of the party heard 
a tiny beeping. It was an alarm I had set on the watch that just happened to go 
off when we came by, and the guy two people behind me heard the beep. It still 
took 5-10 minutes to locate the watch after the beep quit. 

 - Pete

On Sep 11, 2013, at 9:36 AM, Evelyn Townsend wrote:

A Minnesota caver (Joe Terwilliger) lost his car keys in Spring Valley Caverns 
. He did not try to find them. He sold the car that year. Next year he was 
caving in same cave system with friends including  the now owner of the car.  
The new owner and new caver found a set of keys in SVC# 1 . Joe told him its 
yours. Destiny!!! Sorry dont remember the finders name. ET

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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton survey book

[Pete Lindsley]

Of interest is the font on that survey book cover. Carl, that was my old 
electric typewriter font, the one we used when publishing two years of the 
Texas Caver in Dallas in the 60's. Katherine Goodbar and Jacquelyn Robinson 
alternated every other month in typing up each issue full justified on offset 
paper masters. As editor I typed up each month's issue first, putting in  
to the end of each line. Then on the 2nd typing, Katherine (or Jackie) would 
randomly put in extra spaces to full justify each line. I sure was glad to buy 
a home computer in 1979 with a word processor. And in 1986, Karen and I 
bought a Mac with Microsoft Word that wasn't limited to monospaced fonts. A 
long ways from typesetting in the mid 60's!

Oh yes, we still are working on improving our cave survey technology. It helps 
to have a dust proof Disto that shoots 280 feet when doing long survey shots 
with precision sketching.

 - Pete

On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:20 PM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Time flies when you’re having fun. . . .
 
That appears to be a good example of the survey book that was widely in use in 
Texas in the 1960s.  I think it was a Pete Lindsley design.  It became the 
official TSA survey book in hopes of promoting better uniformity in our survey 
techniques which were not all that good at the time.  Getting all that 
information on the front cover was a huge step forward!
 
===Carl Kunath
 
From: John Corcoran
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:44 PM
To: 'Andy Komensky' ; s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton
 
Thanks Andy,
 
I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached survey 
book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
 
Regards,
 
John
 
From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
Komensky
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton

 
Congrats to all of you who received the award.
Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
Cave h,
Andy

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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton survey book

[Pete Lindsley]

Of interest is the font on that survey book cover. Carl, that was my old 
electric typewriter font, the one we used when publishing two years of the 
Texas Caver in Dallas in the 60's. Katherine Goodbar and Jacquelyn Robinson 
alternated every other month in typing up each issue full justified on offset 
paper masters. As editor I typed up each month's issue first, putting in  
to the end of each line. Then on the 2nd typing, Katherine (or Jackie) would 
randomly put in extra spaces to full justify each line. I sure was glad to buy 
a home computer in 1979 with a word processor. And in 1986, Karen and I 
bought a Mac with Microsoft Word that wasn't limited to monospaced fonts. A 
long ways from typesetting in the mid 60's!

Oh yes, we still are working on improving our cave survey technology. It helps 
to have a dust proof Disto that shoots 280 feet when doing long survey shots 
with precision sketching.

 - Pete

On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:20 PM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Time flies when you’re having fun. . . .
 
That appears to be a good example of the survey book that was widely in use in 
Texas in the 1960s.  I think it was a Pete Lindsley design.  It became the 
official TSA survey book in hopes of promoting better uniformity in our survey 
techniques which were not all that good at the time.  Getting all that 
information on the front cover was a huge step forward!
 
===Carl Kunath
 
From: John Corcoran
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:44 PM
To: 'Andy Komensky' ; s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton
 
Thanks Andy,
 
I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached survey 
book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
 
Regards,
 
John
 
From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
Komensky
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton

 
Congrats to all of you who received the award.
Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
Cave h,
Andy

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Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton survey book

[Pete Lindsley]

Of interest is the font on that survey book cover. Carl, that was my old 
electric typewriter font, the one we used when publishing two years of the 
Texas Caver in Dallas in the 60's. Katherine Goodbar and Jacquelyn Robinson 
alternated every other month in typing up each issue full justified on offset 
paper masters. As editor I typed up each month's issue first, putting in  
to the end of each line. Then on the 2nd typing, Katherine (or Jackie) would 
randomly put in extra spaces to full justify each line. I sure was glad to buy 
a home computer in 1979 with a word processor. And in 1986, Karen and I 
bought a Mac with Microsoft Word that wasn't limited to monospaced fonts. A 
long ways from typesetting in the mid 60's!

Oh yes, we still are working on improving our cave survey technology. It helps 
to have a dust proof Disto that shoots 280 feet when doing long survey shots 
with precision sketching.

 - Pete

On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:20 PM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Time flies when you’re having fun. . . .
 
That appears to be a good example of the survey book that was widely in use in 
Texas in the 1960s.  I think it was a Pete Lindsley design.  It became the 
official TSA survey book in hopes of promoting better uniformity in our survey 
techniques which were not all that good at the time.  Getting all that 
information on the front cover was a huge step forward!
 
===Carl Kunath
 
From: John Corcoran
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:44 PM
To: 'Andy Komensky' ; s...@caver.net
Subject: Re: [SWR] Fort Stanton
 
Thanks Andy,
 
I remember that you were on the very first survey team for FSCSP when we 
started at the entrance and began the Main Corridor survey (see attached survey 
book cover)!  So you helped start things some 46 years ago…
 
Regards,
 
John
 
From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Andy 
Komensky
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 7:43 AM
To: s...@caver.net
Subject: [SWR] Fort Stanton

 
Congrats to all of you who received the award.
Proud to say that at one time or another I had the opportunity to cave with 
some of you and sorry that I never had the chance to meet the rest of you.,
Cave h,
Andy

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Re: [Texascavers] Photoshop

[Pete Lindsley]

If any of you I-D users are Mac users, I would highly recommend Swift Publisher 
[http://www.belightsoft.com/products/swiftpublisher/support.php]. It is one 
heck of a lot easier to use and has sufficient controls for most caving 
publications. I just completed the layout  printing of a brochure and a 20 
page annual report booklet and the 600 dpi file to the digital press printer 
with full bleeds worked great. Download the trial and check it out.

 - Pete

On May 13, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Louise Power wrote:

If any of you are government employees, go to the following site and you can 
get CS6 Design Standard for $1299.95.
 
http://store.apple.com/us_epp_55499/product/H8688LL/A/adobe-cs6-design-standard?
 
 
Adobe Creative Suite 6 Design Standard combines:
Adobe Photoshop® CS6
Adobe Illustrator® CS6
Adobe InDesign® CS6
Adobe Acrobat® X Pro
 
Be sure to read the site carefully to make sure it's what you want. Found one 
rating which said:
 
Beware!!! CS6 InDesign does not play nicely with Retina displays. I wish I had 
been told this during my lengthy conversation with Apple salespeople before 
purchasing a new laptop. 

Adobe updated other applications within the suite (Illustrator, Photoshop...) 
for Retina compatibility but not this one. 

Results are ugly pixelated views (or unusably tiny views with scaled 
resolution). Ugh. …More
 
Planning to get one myself for my birthday at the end of the month. Don't have 
to worry about the above, I don't have a Retina display.
 
Louise
From: caver...@hot.rr.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 14:29:17 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Texascavers] Photoshop

Yes, I wanted it to go out to everyone. The important part is the link to 
Adobe. They have a QA that answers all the questions and clears up 
misconceptions.

I started with Adobe Photoshop when it  was only written for the Mac,version 
2.0, an never paid more than $199 for an upgrade. To me, being unemployed is an 
outrage.

I am currently using CS3 as it is the only version I am able to use on my Mac 
G5, I bought CS6 last year, for $199, and will use it when I upgrade to a new 
Mac Pro Desktop. Apple keeps promising a new Mac Pro.

I am running CS6 on my wife's Macbook Pro and there are NO problems. 

You are out of luck as Adobe cut off an upgrade from CS3 to CS6. You will have 
to go to the cloud or buy the full version of CS6 as a new customer. This was 
why I bought CS6  upgrade as I knew Adobe was about to cut it off. For once I 
got lucky :)

Those jerks that download pirated versions of Photoshop is one of the main 
reasons Adobe moved to rental. They are making all of us pay for steeling 
software.

Jim


Begin forwarded message:

From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: May 13, 2013 2:02:22 PM CDT
To: James Jasek caver...@hot.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Photoshop

James (only) -- Not sure whether you meant to send that link about the Adobe 
Creating Suite rental scheme to the whole Texas Cavers list or not. If there's 
been an inquiry about it there, I didn't see it. (Sometimes I think I don't get 
quite all the posts.)

Seems like not such a bad deal, really. I bought CS3 for over $2100 back in 
2007 (would have been more if I'd bought a more complete suite of programs, 
including the web stuff). True, I've used it for 5.5 years, but I'm still stuck 
with CS3, not the latest versions. And it would have taken me almost 4 years to 
pay that amount at the rate of $50 a month, so I'm not terribly far ahead of 
where I'd have been had I been paying subscription all this time. (No doubt the 
list price of the more recent versions has gone up, too, and I doubt there's 
much of an upgrade discount from CS3 for CS7.)

And since I've been stuck with CS3, I haven't upgraded my Mac system to OS 10.6 
(Lion) because I heard that some of the CS3 programs have at least cosmetic 
problems with the newer operating system. That sort of thing wouldn't arise 
with a subscription that allows one to upgrade at no extra cost.

But then I know people who have the whole latest version for nothing. Not hard 
to find on the web programs that will unlock pirated versions from disk. I 
imagine people will figure out how to patch subscription versions so that 
they'll continue to run after you stop paying, too.

If there has been a significant thread about this on Texas Cavers, feel free to 
post this if you want to. -- Bill Mixon

Nothing is better than complete happiness in life. A ham sandwich is better 
than nothing. Therefore a ham sandwich is better than complete happiness in 
life.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org

Re: [Texascavers] Photoshop

[Pete Lindsley]

If any of you I-D users are Mac users, I would highly recommend Swift Publisher 
[http://www.belightsoft.com/products/swiftpublisher/support.php]. It is one 
heck of a lot easier to use and has sufficient controls for most caving 
publications. I just completed the layout  printing of a brochure and a 20 
page annual report booklet and the 600 dpi file to the digital press printer 
with full bleeds worked great. Download the trial and check it out.

 - Pete

On May 13, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Louise Power wrote:

If any of you are government employees, go to the following site and you can 
get CS6 Design Standard for $1299.95.
 
http://store.apple.com/us_epp_55499/product/H8688LL/A/adobe-cs6-design-standard?
 
 
Adobe Creative Suite 6 Design Standard combines:
Adobe Photoshop® CS6
Adobe Illustrator® CS6
Adobe InDesign® CS6
Adobe Acrobat® X Pro
 
Be sure to read the site carefully to make sure it's what you want. Found one 
rating which said:
 
Beware!!! CS6 InDesign does not play nicely with Retina displays. I wish I had 
been told this during my lengthy conversation with Apple salespeople before 
purchasing a new laptop. 

Adobe updated other applications within the suite (Illustrator, Photoshop...) 
for Retina compatibility but not this one. 

Results are ugly pixelated views (or unusably tiny views with scaled 
resolution). Ugh. …More
 
Planning to get one myself for my birthday at the end of the month. Don't have 
to worry about the above, I don't have a Retina display.
 
Louise
From: caver...@hot.rr.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 14:29:17 -0500
Subject: Fwd: [Texascavers] Photoshop

Yes, I wanted it to go out to everyone. The important part is the link to 
Adobe. They have a QA that answers all the questions and clears up 
misconceptions.

I started with Adobe Photoshop when it  was only written for the Mac,version 
2.0, an never paid more than $199 for an upgrade. To me, being unemployed is an 
outrage.

I am currently using CS3 as it is the only version I am able to use on my Mac 
G5, I bought CS6 last year, for $199, and will use it when I upgrade to a new 
Mac Pro Desktop. Apple keeps promising a new Mac Pro.

I am running CS6 on my wife's Macbook Pro and there are NO problems. 

You are out of luck as Adobe cut off an upgrade from CS3 to CS6. You will have 
to go to the cloud or buy the full version of CS6 as a new customer. This was 
why I bought CS6  upgrade as I knew Adobe was about to cut it off. For once I 
got lucky :)

Those jerks that download pirated versions of Photoshop is one of the main 
reasons Adobe moved to rental. They are making all of us pay for steeling 
software.

Jim


Begin forwarded message:

From: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: May 13, 2013 2:02:22 PM CDT
To: James Jasek caver...@hot.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Photoshop

James (only) -- Not sure whether you meant to send that link about the Adobe 
Creating Suite rental scheme to the whole Texas Cavers list or not. If there's 
been an inquiry about it there, I didn't see it. (Sometimes I think I don't get 
quite all the posts.)

Seems like not such a bad deal, really. I bought CS3 for over $2100 back in 
2007 (would have been more if I'd bought a more complete suite of programs, 
including the web stuff). True, I've used it for 5.5 years, but I'm still stuck 
with CS3, not the latest versions. And it would have taken me almost 4 years to 
pay that amount at the rate of $50 a month, so I'm not terribly far ahead of 
where I'd have been had I been paying subscription all this time. (No doubt the 
list price of the more recent versions has gone up, too, and I doubt there's 
much of an upgrade discount from CS3 for CS7.)

And since I've been stuck with CS3, I haven't upgraded my Mac system to OS 10.6 
(Lion) because I heard that some of the CS3 programs have at least cosmetic 
problems with the newer operating system. That sort of thing wouldn't arise 
with a subscription that allows one to upgrade at no extra cost.

But then I know people who have the whole latest version for nothing. Not hard 
to find on the web programs that will unlock pirated versions from disk. I 
imagine people will figure out how to patch subscription versions so that 
they'll continue to run after you stop paying, too.

If there has been a significant thread about this on Texas Cavers, feel free to 
post this if you want to. -- Bill Mixon

Nothing is better than complete happiness in life. A ham sandwich is better 
than nothing. Therefore a ham sandwich is better than complete happiness in 
life.

You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org

Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

[Pete Lindsley]

Tommy Door's Milk Run?

Of course now we have a Patty's Room.

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 11:56 PM, Bob Buecher wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave or 
portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy 
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ... and 
where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


-Original Message- From: Pete Lindsley
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:01 PM
To: Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site.

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists.

- Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [SWR] Meador Remembered

[Pete Lindsley]

Are you sure it wasn't 3-Fingers? That's the Meador Pincher I remember. You had 
to go down through that to get to the Hall of the Fiery Cave God as I recall. 
Andy would know. I don't recall if Tom was ever in the Guadalupe Room. The 
pincher just off the main commercial trail was Matlock's Pinch.

 - Pete

On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Actually, there was a portion of the Guadalupe Room extension at CCNP that was 
known as the Meador Pincher.
This constriction was near the beginning of the route and had to be enlarged to 
allow Tom to pass.
I'm not sure if the name was official enough to make it onto the maps.

===Carl Kunath

-Original Message- From: Bob Buecher
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 AM
To: Pete Lindsley ; Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave
or portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ...
and where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


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Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

[Pete Lindsley]

Tommy Door's Milk Run?

Of course now we have a Patty's Room.

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 11:56 PM, Bob Buecher wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave or 
portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy 
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ... and 
where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


-Original Message- From: Pete Lindsley
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:01 PM
To: Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site.

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists.

- Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [SWR] Meador Remembered

[Pete Lindsley]

Are you sure it wasn't 3-Fingers? That's the Meador Pincher I remember. You had 
to go down through that to get to the Hall of the Fiery Cave God as I recall. 
Andy would know. I don't recall if Tom was ever in the Guadalupe Room. The 
pincher just off the main commercial trail was Matlock's Pinch.

 - Pete

On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Actually, there was a portion of the Guadalupe Room extension at CCNP that was 
known as the Meador Pincher.
This constriction was near the beginning of the route and had to be enlarged to 
allow Tom to pass.
I'm not sure if the name was official enough to make it onto the maps.

===Carl Kunath

-Original Message- From: Bob Buecher
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 AM
To: Pete Lindsley ; Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave
or portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ...
and where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


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Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

[Pete Lindsley]

Tommy Door's Milk Run?

Of course now we have a Patty's Room.

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 11:56 PM, Bob Buecher wrote:

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave or 
portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy 
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ... and 
where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


-Original Message- From: Pete Lindsley
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 10:01 PM
To: Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site.

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists.

- Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [SWR] Meador Remembered

[Pete Lindsley]

Are you sure it wasn't 3-Fingers? That's the Meador Pincher I remember. You had 
to go down through that to get to the Hall of the Fiery Cave God as I recall. 
Andy would know. I don't recall if Tom was ever in the Guadalupe Room. The 
pincher just off the main commercial trail was Matlock's Pinch.

 - Pete

On Apr 4, 2013, at 12:24 AM, Carl Kunath wrote:

Actually, there was a portion of the Guadalupe Room extension at CCNP that was 
known as the Meador Pincher.
This constriction was near the beginning of the route and had to be enlarged to 
allow Tom to pass.
I'm not sure if the name was official enough to make it onto the maps.

===Carl Kunath

-Original Message- From: Bob Buecher
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2013 12:56 AM
To: Pete Lindsley ; Jim Evatt
Cc: Southwestern Region
Subject: Re: [SWR] Remembrance Disappointed

Jim,
Thanks for remembering Tom!

I must say that I have always been disappointed that no one has named a cave
or portion of a cave after Tom.

Perhaps it might be appropriate to name some feature of Ft. Stanton's Snowy
River after Tom.  It may be Snowy River but it is also a river of milk ...
and where else would you expect to see Tom.

Bob Buecher


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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Pete Lindsley]

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site. 

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists. 

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Pete Lindsley]

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site. 

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists. 

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [SWR] Remembrance

[Pete Lindsley]

Here's a photo of Joel Tom [http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/Meador.html]
And it was linked from Ron Miller's TSA Memorial page here 
[http://www.cavetexas.org/rmiller/]

Jim, we should put up some words on the TSA site for Tom, possibly including 
some of the Remembrance comments we have seen tonight. If you help with the 
text, I'll make sure it gets up on the TSA site. 

I think we should do something like this for the SWR! What does everyone think? 
Some cavers, like Tom, would appear on both lists. 

 - Pete

On Apr 3, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Jim Evatt wrote:

Those of you who remember Tom Meador, he would have been 70 today.

Those of you who did not know him, you missed a special friend.

Jim Evatt

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Re: [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

[Pete Lindsley]

Or on the other hand it will be easier to slip in that special rock!

 - Pete

On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Lyndon Tiu wrote:

This means Bill's rocking people's packs won't work anymore as rocks will slide 
off and out of the bags he rocks.


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote:
Where would be the fun in that? Part of the attraction of caving is the wet and 
muddy bit!

-Stefan

-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 4:44 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
Subject: [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

 Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never gets wet or 
muddy.  http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_shaw_one_very_dry_demo.html.

Mark

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org


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other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
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-- 
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Re: [SWR] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

[Pete Lindsley]

Isn't this sort of like the 1-3 year old process to waterproof your iPhone? 
Sent it in and they dunk it in some stuff and send it back all waterproof?

 - Pete

On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Kenneth Ingham wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

Cool, but according to the application instructions, it will break
down with abrasion and skin oils.

I'm still curious how it might work regarding WNS decon.  They make
claims for bacterial (but not fungal) advantages.

Kenneth


On 03/26/2013 03:43 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
 Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
 revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never
 gets wet or muddy.
 http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_shaw_one_very_dry_demo.html.
 
 Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iFYEARELAAYFAlFSHigACgkQqjXvNhJWXxgZmgDgiOsTXqyndpHwmfH3wXupFRlJ
0VdaYFenY7TU5QDgorMbVWqWqiPsxUIMDAyhGsd0RBosZPQetlxmTQ==
=dD1J
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

[Pete Lindsley]

Or on the other hand it will be easier to slip in that special rock!

 - Pete

On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Lyndon Tiu wrote:

This means Bill's rocking people's packs won't work anymore as rocks will slide 
off and out of the bags he rocks.


On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Stefan Creaser stefan.crea...@arm.com wrote:
Where would be the fun in that? Part of the attraction of caving is the wet and 
muddy bit!

-Stefan

-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net]
Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2013 4:44 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com; s...@caver.net
Subject: [Texascavers] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

 Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never gets wet or 
muddy.  http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_shaw_one_very_dry_demo.html.

Mark

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
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-- 
Lyndon Tiu

Re: [SWR] Superhydrophobic Mud-Proof Coating

[Pete Lindsley]

Isn't this sort of like the 1-3 year old process to waterproof your iPhone? 
Sent it in and they dunk it in some stuff and send it back all waterproof?

 - Pete

On Mar 26, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Kenneth Ingham wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

Cool, but according to the application instructions, it will break
down with abrasion and skin oils.

I'm still curious how it might work regarding WNS decon.  They make
claims for bacterial (but not fungal) advantages.

Kenneth


On 03/26/2013 03:43 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
 Depending upon how well this would hold up in a cave, it might 
 revolutionize cave clothes.  Imagine a cave suit or pack that never
 gets wet or muddy.
 http://www.ted.com/talks/mark_shaw_one_very_dry_demo.html.
 
 Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iFYEARELAAYFAlFSHigACgkQqjXvNhJWXxgZmgDgiOsTXqyndpHwmfH3wXupFRlJ
0VdaYFenY7TU5QDgorMbVWqWqiPsxUIMDAyhGsd0RBosZPQetlxmTQ==
=dD1J
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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[SWR] Announcement of Sally Jewell Nomination for Interior Applauded by Conservationists – Conservation Lands Foundation

[Pete Lindsley]

What do you hear from our D-FWG REI meeting place?

http://conservationlands.org/media-page/release-jewell-nomination-for-interior

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[SWR] Announcement of Sally Jewell Nomination for Interior Applauded by Conservationists – Conservation Lands Foundation

[Pete Lindsley]

What do you hear from our D-FWG REI meeting place?

http://conservationlands.org/media-page/release-jewell-nomination-for-interior

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[SWR] Announcement of Sally Jewell Nomination for Interior Applauded by Conservationists – Conservation Lands Foundation

[Pete Lindsley]

What do you hear from our D-FWG REI meeting place?

http://conservationlands.org/media-page/release-jewell-nomination-for-interior

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Re: [SWR] NCKRI cover photo correction

[Pete Lindsley]

George, I have heard that same story over the years from the likes of Trout, 
Komensky, and others. I was first in the cave around 1963 and probably have 
some pictures of the chandelier from that time. It would be interesting to find 
some of the old photos of the chandelier over the years and see if we can 
actually determine if some of it is missing. 

 - Pete

On Jan 24, 2013, at 2:11 PM, George Veni wrote:

Dear Friends,
 
I have recently learned of an error in NCKRI’s 2011-2012 Annual Report. The 
cover photo has the caption:
 
“This 1963 photo of rare gypsum chandeliers in Cottonwood Cave, New Mexico, is 
one of many taken by the late Bob Trout and donated this year to NCKRI. Gifts 
such as this have incredible value, in this case because this spectacular 
speleothem was tragically destroyed by vandals. It now only exists in a few 
images like this, which NCKRI strives to collect, preserve, and make available 
for research and education.”
 
Many years ago Jerry Trout showed me a place in the cave where there is now 
bare wall and he described how a chandelier extended to the floor. I don’t know 
if I was told that this cover photo was of that location or I misunderstood 
that it was, but in any case I wrote the photo caption based on what I 
understood to be true and accurate. I now know the chandelier in the photo 
still exists and is not the destroyed one. I am very sorry for the error. I 
will publish a correction in NCKRI’s 2012-2013 Annual Report, which should be 
released in September or October.
 
The one thing that remains true about the photo caption is that it is important 
for NCKRI and others to collect and archive cave photos to preserve them as 
historical and scientific records. I appreciate everyone’s support in helping 
NCKRI achieve these and other goals. I also appreciate those cavers who 
delicately informed me of the error, not wanting to cause hurt feelings. 
Everyone at NCKRI works hard to do the best job possible, but we sometimes make 
mistakes we don’t see. We welcome input that helps us fix those errors, prevent 
mistakes in the future, and improve our operations in general.
 
For anyone wanting to see this or NCKRI’s other annual reports and 
publications, visit http://nckri.org/about_nckri/nckri_publications.htm.
 
George
 
***
 
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
 
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Re: [SWR] NCKRI cover photo correction

[Pete Lindsley]

George, I have heard that same story over the years from the likes of Trout, 
Komensky, and others. I was first in the cave around 1963 and probably have 
some pictures of the chandelier from that time. It would be interesting to find 
some of the old photos of the chandelier over the years and see if we can 
actually determine if some of it is missing. 

 - Pete

On Jan 24, 2013, at 2:11 PM, George Veni wrote:

Dear Friends,
 
I have recently learned of an error in NCKRI’s 2011-2012 Annual Report. The 
cover photo has the caption:
 
“This 1963 photo of rare gypsum chandeliers in Cottonwood Cave, New Mexico, is 
one of many taken by the late Bob Trout and donated this year to NCKRI. Gifts 
such as this have incredible value, in this case because this spectacular 
speleothem was tragically destroyed by vandals. It now only exists in a few 
images like this, which NCKRI strives to collect, preserve, and make available 
for research and education.”
 
Many years ago Jerry Trout showed me a place in the cave where there is now 
bare wall and he described how a chandelier extended to the floor. I don’t know 
if I was told that this cover photo was of that location or I misunderstood 
that it was, but in any case I wrote the photo caption based on what I 
understood to be true and accurate. I now know the chandelier in the photo 
still exists and is not the destroyed one. I am very sorry for the error. I 
will publish a correction in NCKRI’s 2012-2013 Annual Report, which should be 
released in September or October.
 
The one thing that remains true about the photo caption is that it is important 
for NCKRI and others to collect and archive cave photos to preserve them as 
historical and scientific records. I appreciate everyone’s support in helping 
NCKRI achieve these and other goals. I also appreciate those cavers who 
delicately informed me of the error, not wanting to cause hurt feelings. 
Everyone at NCKRI works hard to do the best job possible, but we sometimes make 
mistakes we don’t see. We welcome input that helps us fix those errors, prevent 
mistakes in the future, and improve our operations in general.
 
For anyone wanting to see this or NCKRI’s other annual reports and 
publications, visit http://nckri.org/about_nckri/nckri_publications.htm.
 
George
 
***
 
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
 
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[SWR] Fwd: caving news

[Pete Lindsley]

Great web site on new discovery!

 - Pete

Begin forwarded message:

From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com
Date: January 22, 2013 1:07:06 PM MST
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Bcc: caverp...@gmail.com
Subject: caving news

Texas cavers,
 
Big news.
 
( Disclaimer:   I am not on CaveTex or Facebook, so this might be old news )
 
 
A cave near Lake Balmorhea was explored by hard-core cave divers last week, and 
is now the deepest underwater cave in the U.S.A.,
and the 2nd deepest cave in Texas. That is 462 eet deep.
 
http://www.admfoundation.org/projects/phantomcave2013/phantom2013.html
 
The cave has been closed year-round for many years, except to research 
biologist with science permits.
 
I think some of these divers may live in the Houston area, but the rest are 
from out of state.   Dr. Iliffe is in Galveston, I think.
 
I think the TSS list this cave as # 25 in depth, so that is a huge jump, and 
pushes it deeper than Goodenough Springs as the deepest underwater cave in the 
state.
 
David Locklear

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[SWR] Fwd: caving news

[Pete Lindsley]

Great web site on new discovery!

 - Pete

Begin forwarded message:

From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: January 22, 2013 1:07:06 PM MST
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Bcc: caverp...@gmail.com
Subject: caving news

Texas cavers,
 
Big news.
 
( Disclaimer:   I am not on CaveTex or Facebook, so this might be old news )
 
 
A cave near Lake Balmorhea was explored by hard-core cave divers last week, and 
is now the deepest underwater cave in the U.S.A.,
and the 2nd deepest cave in Texas. That is 462 eet deep.
 
http://www.admfoundation.org/projects/phantomcave2013/phantom2013.html
 
The cave has been closed year-round for many years, except to research 
biologist with science permits.
 
I think some of these divers may live in the Houston area, but the rest are 
from out of state.   Dr. Iliffe is in Galveston, I think.
 
I think the TSS list this cave as # 25 in depth, so that is a huge jump, and 
pushes it deeper than Goodenough Springs as the deepest underwater cave in the 
state.
 
David Locklear

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[SWR] Fwd: caving news

[Pete Lindsley]

Great web site on new discovery!

 - Pete

Begin forwarded message:

From: David dlocklea...@gmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: January 22, 2013 1:07:06 PM MST
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
Bcc: caverp...@gmail.com
Subject: caving news

Texas cavers,
 
Big news.
 
( Disclaimer:   I am not on CaveTex or Facebook, so this might be old news )
 
 
A cave near Lake Balmorhea was explored by hard-core cave divers last week, and 
is now the deepest underwater cave in the U.S.A.,
and the 2nd deepest cave in Texas. That is 462 eet deep.
 
http://www.admfoundation.org/projects/phantomcave2013/phantom2013.html
 
The cave has been closed year-round for many years, except to research 
biologist with science permits.
 
I think some of these divers may live in the Houston area, but the rest are 
from out of state.   Dr. Iliffe is in Galveston, I think.
 
I think the TSS list this cave as # 25 in depth, so that is a huge jump, and 
pushes it deeper than Goodenough Springs as the deepest underwater cave in the 
state.
 
David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] TopoMaps app for the iPhone and iPad

[Pete Lindsley]

Sorry, I don't do FB. James, can you fill me in on this app please? Does it 
work on IOS6? Does it work on the latest versions of iPads and iPhones? 

For many years I have used MacGPS Pro on the Mac to apply my track logs and 
waypoints to a set of USGS maps that come in condensed pict format with each 
state on a DVD.  [http://www.macgpspro.com/] 

The same author also brought out an app for the iPhone a couple of years ago 
called iHike. [http://www.ihikegps.com/] iHike can download a similar set of 
free USGS and USFS maps, but not over 3G or 4G; you have to download the maps 
over WiFi. But you can still set waypoints and take track logs without the 
maps, and then load them later when you get back out of the boonies.

For the sailors out there with an iPhone or iPad take a look at iSailGPS 
[http://www.isailgps.com/]. Only with this app you get access to free NOAA 
marine charts.

James, I assume the app of which Julia mentioned may be at 
[http://topomapsapp.com/index.html]. Apparently they have maps for Canada  the 
UK. What about Mexico, Cuba, Jamaica, etc.? Does this app let you take track 
logs on both the iPad and the iPhone? I know some iPads don't have GPS, but 
it's hard to tell from the advertising when so many apps claim they use GPS, 
but it is really only assisted GPS using cell tower triangulation. What sort 
of accuracy does your app provide?

 Thanks!

 - Pete


On Dec 26, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Julia Germany wrote:

Many thanks to James Jasek for turning me on to the TopoMaps app for the iPhone 
(read his post on FB, one of the caving sites).

It TOTALLY rocks, and well worth the $8.

Christmas present to myself!

Happy Holidays!
julia

Re: [Texascavers] TopoMaps app for the iPhone and iPad

[Pete Lindsley]

Sorry, I don't do FB. James, can you fill me in on this app please? Does it 
work on IOS6? Does it work on the latest versions of iPads and iPhones? 

For many years I have used MacGPS Pro on the Mac to apply my track logs and 
waypoints to a set of USGS maps that come in condensed pict format with each 
state on a DVD.  [http://www.macgpspro.com/] 

The same author also brought out an app for the iPhone a couple of years ago 
called iHike. [http://www.ihikegps.com/] iHike can download a similar set of 
free USGS and USFS maps, but not over 3G or 4G; you have to download the maps 
over WiFi. But you can still set waypoints and take track logs without the 
maps, and then load them later when you get back out of the boonies.

For the sailors out there with an iPhone or iPad take a look at iSailGPS 
[http://www.isailgps.com/]. Only with this app you get access to free NOAA 
marine charts.

James, I assume the app of which Julia mentioned may be at 
[http://topomapsapp.com/index.html]. Apparently they have maps for Canada  the 
UK. What about Mexico, Cuba, Jamaica, etc.? Does this app let you take track 
logs on both the iPad and the iPhone? I know some iPads don't have GPS, but 
it's hard to tell from the advertising when so many apps claim they use GPS, 
but it is really only assisted GPS using cell tower triangulation. What sort 
of accuracy does your app provide?

 Thanks!

 - Pete


On Dec 26, 2012, at 11:27 AM, Julia Germany wrote:

Many thanks to James Jasek for turning me on to the TopoMaps app for the iPhone 
(read his post on FB, one of the caving sites).

It TOTALLY rocks, and well worth the $8.

Christmas present to myself!

Happy Holidays!
julia

Re: [Texascavers] Pete Lindsley

[Pete Lindsley]

My gmail account filled up and was bouncing my e-mail yesterday/. Should be OK 
now.

 - Pete

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Mary Thiesse wrote:

Hey Pete, I responded to your email at caverp...@gmail.com an received a 
failure notice for receipt. What's up?
 
Mary TZ

Re: [Texascavers] Pete Lindsley

[Pete Lindsley]

My gmail account filled up and was bouncing my e-mail yesterday/. Should be OK 
now.

 - Pete

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Mary Thiesse wrote:

Hey Pete, I responded to your email at caverp...@gmail.com an received a 
failure notice for receipt. What's up?
 
Mary TZ

Re: [Texascavers] Pete Lindsley

[Pete Lindsley]

My gmail account filled up and was bouncing my e-mail yesterday/. Should be OK 
now.

 - Pete

On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:37 PM, Mary Thiesse wrote:

Hey Pete, I responded to your email at caverp...@gmail.com an received a 
failure notice for receipt. What's up?
 
Mary TZ

Re: [Texascavers] AMCS needs Java Script

[Pete Lindsley]

Bill and Andy, this is a common requirement on caver web sites. I have used 
Atomz with good results on both fscsp.org and cavebooks.com 
[http://www.atomz.com/].

However on some websites you have a /Private area just to keep out the Google 
and other web crawlers because you don't want your name correlated with your 
picture, etc. to keep the identity thieves at bay. Atomz claims to have the 
ability to handle this but the first time I tried it didn't work. On sensitive 
things like this (such as cave locations) you should always check it out very 
carefully so that you don't get all the extra snoop code installed at the 
highest level (admin) that so much of the free fix my computer apps seem to 
do. (I got rid of Log-Me-In but I am STILL trying to get rid of MacKeeper which 
is pinging the internet several times a second...)

If you come up with a good JS that will work behind password protected 
directories please let me know.

 - Pete

On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Andy Edwards wrote:

I'm not a JavaScript expert, but I'd be willing to take a look!

-Andy

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:
Is there a Java Script guru out there who would be willing to look at something 
for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies? We have an archive catalog of 
some 4500 items (230 pages worth) that I'd like to put on the web, but the 
whole thing is rather useless without a good search capability, since it is not 
sorted in any useful way. A new UT Grotto member wrote Java Script code that 
will display only entries that match a specified combination of strings, and it 
does the right thing, but has serious performance issues. He then left for 
darkest Southeast Asia and has not been heard from since March. Anybody 
interested in looking into it?

Other methods for accomplishing the same thing would be considered, but the 
advantage of Java Script is that it runs in the web browser, so the server 
doesn't need to do anything except deliver the file, which probably simplifies 
updating and maintenance. -- Bill Mixon

A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is fatal.


You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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Re: [Texascavers] AMCS needs Java Script

[Pete Lindsley]

Bill and Andy, this is a common requirement on caver web sites. I have used 
Atomz with good results on both fscsp.org and cavebooks.com 
[http://www.atomz.com/].

However on some websites you have a /Private area just to keep out the Google 
and other web crawlers because you don't want your name correlated with your 
picture, etc. to keep the identity thieves at bay. Atomz claims to have the 
ability to handle this but the first time I tried it didn't work. On sensitive 
things like this (such as cave locations) you should always check it out very 
carefully so that you don't get all the extra snoop code installed at the 
highest level (admin) that so much of the free fix my computer apps seem to 
do. (I got rid of Log-Me-In but I am STILL trying to get rid of MacKeeper which 
is pinging the internet several times a second...)

If you come up with a good JS that will work behind password protected 
directories please let me know.

 - Pete

On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Andy Edwards wrote:

I'm not a JavaScript expert, but I'd be willing to take a look!

-Andy

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:
Is there a Java Script guru out there who would be willing to look at something 
for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies? We have an archive catalog of 
some 4500 items (230 pages worth) that I'd like to put on the web, but the 
whole thing is rather useless without a good search capability, since it is not 
sorted in any useful way. A new UT Grotto member wrote Java Script code that 
will display only entries that match a specified combination of strings, and it 
does the right thing, but has serious performance issues. He then left for 
darkest Southeast Asia and has not been heard from since March. Anybody 
interested in looking into it?

Other methods for accomplishing the same thing would be considered, but the 
advantage of Java Script is that it runs in the web browser, so the server 
doesn't need to do anything except deliver the file, which probably simplifies 
updating and maintenance. -- Bill Mixon

A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is fatal.


You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

Re: [Texascavers] AMCS needs Java Script

[Pete Lindsley]

Bill and Andy, this is a common requirement on caver web sites. I have used 
Atomz with good results on both fscsp.org and cavebooks.com 
[http://www.atomz.com/].

However on some websites you have a /Private area just to keep out the Google 
and other web crawlers because you don't want your name correlated with your 
picture, etc. to keep the identity thieves at bay. Atomz claims to have the 
ability to handle this but the first time I tried it didn't work. On sensitive 
things like this (such as cave locations) you should always check it out very 
carefully so that you don't get all the extra snoop code installed at the 
highest level (admin) that so much of the free fix my computer apps seem to 
do. (I got rid of Log-Me-In but I am STILL trying to get rid of MacKeeper which 
is pinging the internet several times a second...)

If you come up with a good JS that will work behind password protected 
directories please let me know.

 - Pete

On Dec 20, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Andy Edwards wrote:

I'm not a JavaScript expert, but I'd be willing to take a look!

-Andy

On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote:
Is there a Java Script guru out there who would be willing to look at something 
for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies? We have an archive catalog of 
some 4500 items (230 pages worth) that I'd like to put on the web, but the 
whole thing is rather useless without a good search capability, since it is not 
sorted in any useful way. A new UT Grotto member wrote Java Script code that 
will display only entries that match a specified combination of strings, and it 
does the right thing, but has serious performance issues. He then left for 
darkest Southeast Asia and has not been heard from since March. Anybody 
interested in looking into it?

Other methods for accomplishing the same thing would be considered, but the 
advantage of Java Script is that it runs in the web browser, so the server 
doesn't need to do anything except deliver the file, which probably simplifies 
updating and maintenance. -- Bill Mixon

A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is fatal.


You may reply to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[SWR] Fwd: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy

[Pete Lindsley]

Good discussion of bat cave gates from LowGun

Begin forwarded message:

From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com
Date: November 30, 2012 4:14:36 PM MST
To: Texas Cavers texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy
Reply-To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com

This article is in the latest issue of Bat Conservation News of Bat 
Conservation International.  Gives a good description of what Jim Kennedy does 
for a living so he can go caving on his time off!



November 2012, Volume 10, Number 11
Complex Bat Gates

A gate built years ago to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon County, 
Missouri, turned out to be more a problem than a solution. The original gate, 
designed with now-outdated information, was placed deep in the cave where the 
passageway shrinks sharply, creating a bottleneck so severe that the bats 
virtually abandoned the site. The problem was solved, to some extent, by 
keeping the gate's doorway locked open, and by last summer more than 100,000 
bats were counted, making this the state's largest summer colony of endangered 
gray myotis.


BatGate.jpg: The 'chute gate' built to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon 
County, Missouri. © Jim Kennedy, BCI
But the area around this important cave in the Mark Twain National Forest is 
partially surrounded by private land and crisscrossed with trails for 
all-terrain vehicles, putting the cave bats at great risk of human disturbance. 
Now, however, the old gate is gone. And in its place are a pair of unusually 
complex gates at that really are bat friendly.

This challenging project was accomplished through a partnership with the U. S. 
Forest Service, which provided core funding, manpower and vehicles; the 
not-for-profit Cave Research Foundation (CRF), which served as project manager 
and provided the steel, tools and other equipment; and Bat Conservation 
International, which dispatched BCI cave specialist Jim Kennedy to design the 
gates and oversee construction.

This is one of the most biologically important caves on the sprawling national 
forest. In addition to the critical colony of gray myotis, it is also home to 
other bat species, as well as frogs, salamanders, spiders, beetles, crickets 
and leeches. Special gates were required because summer colonies leave a cave 
each night to forage, and a basic bat gate could cause a massive traffic jam 
with so many bats.

This was the most difficult cave-gate project I have ever done, said Kennedy. 
The entrances were high on a cliff, so access was very difficult. The steep 
slope, the entrance dimensions, the cultural sensitivity and the design that 
was necessary for such a large summer colony combined to create problems that 
are rarely encountered.

After year and a half of planning, Kennedy and the Forest Service/CRF crew, 
reinforced by nine AmeriCorps members, went to work in October. All materials 
and equipment were hauled up to the cave with a winch along a well-anchored 
steel cable.

One structure was a flyover gate, which leaves an opening high at the top 
that lets bats come and go. The other was an extremely difficult chute gate. 
These rarely built gates feature a large, tube-like vent through which even 
very large numbers of bats can move freely in either direction. Kennedy learned 
to design such gates from master-gater Roy Powers, with whom he has worked off 
and on since the mid-1980s.

Both gates were completed ahead of schedule in just 1½ weeks. The equipment was 
hauled off, the old gate removed, trails and other signs of construction were 
returned to a natural state and the weary workers went home. Now we all wait 
until next summer, to see what the bats think about our efforts.

Funding for this project was provided by Mark Twain National Forest, Cave 
Research Foundation and the Woodtiger Fund.



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___
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[SWR] Fwd: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy

[Pete Lindsley]

Good discussion of bat cave gates from LowGun

Begin forwarded message:

From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: November 30, 2012 4:14:36 PM MST
To: Texas Cavers texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy
Reply-To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com

This article is in the latest issue of Bat Conservation News of Bat 
Conservation International.  Gives a good description of what Jim Kennedy does 
for a living so he can go caving on his time off!



November 2012, Volume 10, Number 11
Complex Bat Gates

A gate built years ago to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon County, 
Missouri, turned out to be more a problem than a solution. The original gate, 
designed with now-outdated information, was placed deep in the cave where the 
passageway shrinks sharply, creating a bottleneck so severe that the bats 
virtually abandoned the site. The problem was solved, to some extent, by 
keeping the gate's doorway locked open, and by last summer more than 100,000 
bats were counted, making this the state's largest summer colony of endangered 
gray myotis.


BatGate.jpg: The 'chute gate' built to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon 
County, Missouri. © Jim Kennedy, BCI
But the area around this important cave in the Mark Twain National Forest is 
partially surrounded by private land and crisscrossed with trails for 
all-terrain vehicles, putting the cave bats at great risk of human disturbance. 
Now, however, the old gate is gone. And in its place are a pair of unusually 
complex gates at that really are bat friendly.

This challenging project was accomplished through a partnership with the U. S. 
Forest Service, which provided core funding, manpower and vehicles; the 
not-for-profit Cave Research Foundation (CRF), which served as project manager 
and provided the steel, tools and other equipment; and Bat Conservation 
International, which dispatched BCI cave specialist Jim Kennedy to design the 
gates and oversee construction.

This is one of the most biologically important caves on the sprawling national 
forest. In addition to the critical colony of gray myotis, it is also home to 
other bat species, as well as frogs, salamanders, spiders, beetles, crickets 
and leeches. Special gates were required because summer colonies leave a cave 
each night to forage, and a basic bat gate could cause a massive traffic jam 
with so many bats.

This was the most difficult cave-gate project I have ever done, said Kennedy. 
The entrances were high on a cliff, so access was very difficult. The steep 
slope, the entrance dimensions, the cultural sensitivity and the design that 
was necessary for such a large summer colony combined to create problems that 
are rarely encountered.

After year and a half of planning, Kennedy and the Forest Service/CRF crew, 
reinforced by nine AmeriCorps members, went to work in October. All materials 
and equipment were hauled up to the cave with a winch along a well-anchored 
steel cable.

One structure was a flyover gate, which leaves an opening high at the top 
that lets bats come and go. The other was an extremely difficult chute gate. 
These rarely built gates feature a large, tube-like vent through which even 
very large numbers of bats can move freely in either direction. Kennedy learned 
to design such gates from master-gater Roy Powers, with whom he has worked off 
and on since the mid-1980s.

Both gates were completed ahead of schedule in just 1½ weeks. The equipment was 
hauled off, the old gate removed, trails and other signs of construction were 
returned to a natural state and the weary workers went home. Now we all wait 
until next summer, to see what the bats think about our efforts.

Funding for this project was provided by Mark Twain National Forest, Cave 
Research Foundation and the Woodtiger Fund.



___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
___
 This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET

[SWR] Fwd: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy

[Pete Lindsley]

Good discussion of bat cave gates from LowGun

Begin forwarded message:

From: Logan McNatt lmcn...@austin.rr.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: November 30, 2012 4:14:36 PM MST
To: Texas Cavers texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] complex bat gates designed by Jim Kennedy
Reply-To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com

This article is in the latest issue of Bat Conservation News of Bat 
Conservation International.  Gives a good description of what Jim Kennedy does 
for a living so he can go caving on his time off!



November 2012, Volume 10, Number 11
Complex Bat Gates

A gate built years ago to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon County, 
Missouri, turned out to be more a problem than a solution. The original gate, 
designed with now-outdated information, was placed deep in the cave where the 
passageway shrinks sharply, creating a bottleneck so severe that the bats 
virtually abandoned the site. The problem was solved, to some extent, by 
keeping the gate's doorway locked open, and by last summer more than 100,000 
bats were counted, making this the state's largest summer colony of endangered 
gray myotis.


BatGate.jpg: The 'chute gate' built to protect the bats of Bat Cave in Oregon 
County, Missouri. © Jim Kennedy, BCI
But the area around this important cave in the Mark Twain National Forest is 
partially surrounded by private land and crisscrossed with trails for 
all-terrain vehicles, putting the cave bats at great risk of human disturbance. 
Now, however, the old gate is gone. And in its place are a pair of unusually 
complex gates at that really are bat friendly.

This challenging project was accomplished through a partnership with the U. S. 
Forest Service, which provided core funding, manpower and vehicles; the 
not-for-profit Cave Research Foundation (CRF), which served as project manager 
and provided the steel, tools and other equipment; and Bat Conservation 
International, which dispatched BCI cave specialist Jim Kennedy to design the 
gates and oversee construction.

This is one of the most biologically important caves on the sprawling national 
forest. In addition to the critical colony of gray myotis, it is also home to 
other bat species, as well as frogs, salamanders, spiders, beetles, crickets 
and leeches. Special gates were required because summer colonies leave a cave 
each night to forage, and a basic bat gate could cause a massive traffic jam 
with so many bats.

This was the most difficult cave-gate project I have ever done, said Kennedy. 
The entrances were high on a cliff, so access was very difficult. The steep 
slope, the entrance dimensions, the cultural sensitivity and the design that 
was necessary for such a large summer colony combined to create problems that 
are rarely encountered.

After year and a half of planning, Kennedy and the Forest Service/CRF crew, 
reinforced by nine AmeriCorps members, went to work in October. All materials 
and equipment were hauled up to the cave with a winch along a well-anchored 
steel cable.

One structure was a flyover gate, which leaves an opening high at the top 
that lets bats come and go. The other was an extremely difficult chute gate. 
These rarely built gates feature a large, tube-like vent through which even 
very large numbers of bats can move freely in either direction. Kennedy learned 
to design such gates from master-gater Roy Powers, with whom he has worked off 
and on since the mid-1980s.

Both gates were completed ahead of schedule in just 1½ weeks. The equipment was 
hauled off, the old gate removed, trails and other signs of construction were 
returned to a natural state and the weary workers went home. Now we all wait 
until next summer, to see what the bats think about our efforts.

Funding for this project was provided by Mark Twain National Forest, Cave 
Research Foundation and the Woodtiger Fund.



___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
___
 This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET

Re: [Texascavers] More about carbide caving

[Pete Lindsley]

I could set my helmet upside down then. With a blade mount, I just  
detached the lamp, took off the helmet and re-inserted the lamp to go  
through that tight crawl. I only switched when I was able to build a  
suitable LED lamp that provided the wide illumination zone and  
slightly warmer color similar to the carbide lamp.


 - Pete

On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Jon Cradit wrote:

You can even set your helmet upside down now.

Re: [Texascavers] More about carbide caving

[Pete Lindsley]

I could set my helmet upside down then. With a blade mount, I just  
detached the lamp, took off the helmet and re-inserted the lamp to go  
through that tight crawl. I only switched when I was able to build a  
suitable LED lamp that provided the wide illumination zone and  
slightly warmer color similar to the carbide lamp.


 - Pete

On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Jon Cradit wrote:

You can even set your helmet upside down now.

Re: [Texascavers] More about carbide caving

[Pete Lindsley]

I could set my helmet upside down then. With a blade mount, I just  
detached the lamp, took off the helmet and re-inserted the lamp to go  
through that tight crawl. I only switched when I was able to build a  
suitable LED lamp that provided the wide illumination zone and  
slightly warmer color similar to the carbide lamp.


 - Pete

On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Jon Cradit wrote:

You can even set your helmet upside down now.

Re: [Texascavers] camera questions

[Pete Lindsley]

Sounds like it is now a caving camera (if it still works). Then either  
buy a better cave camera (like one of the new waterproof Pentax  
cameras, my 4-year old Pentax is a W-60), or upgrade your Canon to a  
newer one for probably cheaper than the repair, or both, and then  
insure the cameras under an itemized list attached to your home owners  
policy.


 - Pete

On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Geary Schindel wrote:

Folks,

I have (had) a Canon EOS Rebel XT digital (8 mg) camera.  The camera  
bag rolled out of the car and fell on its head at convention and now  
the LCD screen doesn’t function (the one with all the camera data, not  
the screen which shows the picture).  Lens works fine. So, is this  
thing worth repairing considering there is probably a repair cost to  
tell me how much more it will cost to repair or should I buy a new  
camera.  If so, I was thinking of just buying the same or similar  
body.  Seems they have upgraded it some and they now use SD cards  
which would be nice.  Any thoughts on what I should do.  It has been a  
pretty good camera up until now.  I certainly don’t need any of the  
high end professional cameras but still like a SLR.


Geary

Re: [Texascavers] camera questions

[Pete Lindsley]

No, it's for when someone breaks into your car and steals most of your  
camera gear just before leaving on a photo vacation (to caves) you  
have already paid for.


 - Pete

On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Lyndon Tiu wrote:

What's the point of insuring the camera under one's homeowner's
policy? So I can get insurance to pay for the repairs next time it
falls out of the car and breaks?

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Pete Lindsley caverp...@gmail.com  
wrote:
Sounds like it is now a caving camera (if it still works). Then  
either buy a
better cave camera (like one of the new waterproof Pentax cameras,  
my 4-year
old Pentax is a W-60), or upgrade your Canon to a newer one for  
probably

cheaper than the repair, or both, and then insure the cameras under an
itemized list attached to your home owners policy.

- Pete

On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Geary Schindel wrote:

Folks,

I have (had) a Canon EOS Rebel XT digital (8 mg) camera.  The camera  
bag
rolled out of the car and fell on its head at convention and now the  
LCD
screen doesn’t function (the one with all the camera data, not the  
screen

which shows the picture).  Lens works fine. So, is this thing worth
repairing considering there is probably a repair cost to tell me how  
much
more it will cost to repair or should I buy a new camera.  If so, I  
was
thinking of just buying the same or similar body.  Seems they have  
upgraded
it some and they now use SD cards which would be nice.  Any thoughts  
on what
I should do.  It has been a pretty good camera up until now.  I  
certainly
don’t need any of the high end professional cameras but still like a  
SLR.


Geary








--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] camera questions

[Pete Lindsley]

Only one. [http://www.bhphotovideo.com/] Others may have better  
prices, but these guys have the stock and when your card is charged it  
means you will get your stuff in a few days. I have been buying from  
them for several decades. Almost all the others I have considered were  
liars, and probably crooks. I am sure there are many other good ones  
out there, but follow your friends recommendations.


 - Pete

On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Geary Schindel wrote:

Pete,

Thanks, have any recommendations on places to buy and not buy cameras  
on the web.


G

Re: [Texascavers] camera questions

[Pete Lindsley]

Sounds like it is now a caving camera (if it still works). Then either  
buy a better cave camera (like one of the new waterproof Pentax  
cameras, my 4-year old Pentax is a W-60), or upgrade your Canon to a  
newer one for probably cheaper than the repair, or both, and then  
insure the cameras under an itemized list attached to your home owners  
policy.


 - Pete

On Aug 10, 2012, at 12:07 PM, Geary Schindel wrote:

Folks,

I have (had) a Canon EOS Rebel XT digital (8 mg) camera.  The camera  
bag rolled out of the car and fell on its head at convention and now  
the LCD screen doesn’t function (the one with all the camera data, not  
the screen which shows the picture).  Lens works fine. So, is this  
thing worth repairing considering there is probably a repair cost to  
tell me how much more it will cost to repair or should I buy a new  
camera.  If so, I was thinking of just buying the same or similar  
body.  Seems they have upgraded it some and they now use SD cards  
which would be nice.  Any thoughts on what I should do.  It has been a  
pretty good camera up until now.  I certainly don’t need any of the  
high end professional cameras but still like a SLR.


Geary