subject:"Re\: \[TruthTalk\] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently"

Terry wrote:
 Jesus and His disciples were Jews, still under 
 the law at the time.  To break the law would be 
 sin, yet Jesus never sinned.  The only explanation, 
 therefore is that the Jewish leaders did not understand 
 what keeping the sabbath entailed.  Jesus knew the law.  
 They did not.

Hi Terry.

Previously you said that not to obey authorities would be a sin.  Then
you said that the only exception would be if we had to obey God rather
than man.  This is what led to me bringing up this passage in Matthew
12.  Do you now see that obeying God rather than man is not the only
exception to the teaching of the law to be subject to those in
authority? Do you now see that one might disobey the law of authorities
and yet not sin, even if it was for something as carnal as eating?

I agree with you that Jesus knew the law, but more importantly, Jesus
followed the spirit of the law and not the letter.  May we who believe
in him follow his example and inherit his wisdom.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Slade wrote:
 There is one fact I would like to point out 
 to you. I have no idea what is in your heart. 
 I have no idea the inflection in the voice 
 of your writings. I could very well be 
 misunderstanding you.

Who is the you that you would like to point something out to?  Is your
post something directed toward me or toward someone else?  I find a lot
of agreement with your posts, so I'm not sure if you are
misunderstanding me, or just sharing something that is on your heart, or
maybe even cross posting from another list.

I see you countering those who are lawless, those who use grace to
excuse sin.  I'm in agreement with you concerning this.  Nevertheless,
the handwriting of ordinances is not the answer.  I do have some concern
that you don't understand the letter to the Galatians, but I'm not sure
because you write into the air so-to-speak, rather than directing it
toward what you are hearing.  If you think that you and I might differ a
little in how we understand things, let's try to find out where it is.
Maybe one of us would grow in knowledge if we focus upon where our
thoughts intersect.
 
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread Terry Clifton




G:
What a great way to put it! Simple 
elegance.
Terry

  in Romans,ALL who follow JCbiblically, 
  by faith, have died to sin;and,dead to sin, they ALL realize that 
  the Law isdead;it simply can't do for themwhat faith 
  can

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently










 Slade, Your messages go right to my heart! This
one brought tears to my eyes. Izzy





-Original Message-



What is the foundation of your faith built on? Is it
the Messiah? Is it the rock that watered the Sons of Yisrael in the Desert? Is
it the voice that bellowed from Har Sinai? Is it the Hayah Asher
Hayah who spoke from the thorn bush that was aflame yet didnt
burn? Is it the Ancient of Days who is destined to come (be it) soon and in our
days on the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory? If so, our foundation
is one and the same. The One who created the Universe and whose very Shekhinah
entered our Universe and burst forth as light in Genesis 1:2 is the same One
who perished on a tree outside Yerushalayim for our sins.

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently










 g,
Im glad to see that you no longer sin. J Izzy





-Original Message-







also, in Romans,ALL
who follow JCbiblically, by faith, have died to sin

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently










 AMEN! (And a big Duh!) Izzy



 


 
  
  Galatians
  3:29
  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's
  descendants, heirs according to promise.
  
  
 
 
  
  
  
 
 
  
  
  
 








Original Message-











THERE ARE NO GENTILES IN
THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!











Perhaps you need to read
Romans 11 again. Those who were formerly far off have been brought close. THEY
ARE GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL. They are NO
LONGER GENTILES.











If you are in covenant
with the Almighty, you are not a Gentile. You need to start getting your
semantics straight. If you want to continue calling yourself a Gentile, perhaps
you really need to take a close look at your relationship with the God of
Israel.

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread GJTabor

What you posted below is truth from God. Maybe God is trying to tell you something. People give you Bible but you have previously built into your mind a rejection and new invention of meaning of the truth you posted and rejected from God.

This reminds me of quoting Bible to homosexuals. You can quote many of them all the Bible verses you want, but they have already heard those same Bible verses AND have previously built into their minds a rejection and new invention of meaning of those verses against homosexuality.

Your mind is made up so there is no need to discuss this with you.

"... shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid" (Romans 6:15).

I got tore into by someone on my Torah Commentary LISTSERV. The same old stuff...

The Law's been done away with, it's been nailed to the cross!
All I have to do is love God and love my neighbor!
Haven't you read in Galatians You foolish Galatians... because they again went into bondage to the hard taskmaster?
Jesus fulfilled the law and Jesus lives in me... so I am perfect in His Sight!
Wish you would know the freedom of just loving Jesus and not to have to deal with all the old laws!
They [the commandments] were to prove that we needed Jesus because if we could become perfect without Jesus then He came and died in vain!
I am free from the law, why are you sending these messages!
What do you do with a son or daughter who does not mind You take them to the elders and they take him outside of the city and stone him, right? According to the Old Testament! You think you go to prison today if you do that, and get the death penalty? You betcha!
Are you saying you don't care, but you obey the Old Testament and do it anyway?
I am free from the curse of the law!
Jesus paid the price for all my transgressions!
Whom the Son has set free is free indeed!
If the Holy Spirit tells you to live in a home with naked walls and dull looking furniture whatever, by all means do it. Noah built a boat and the prophets did weird things, so I would never say don't do what God or the Holy Spirit tells you to do. But do not lay it on the shoulders of the people!
That is not Gospel!
There is all the talk and "revelation " about Christmas... everything is a sin. Hanukkah is not in the bible either ***Slade adds: which it is*** but do people make a big deal over it, betcha!
What about the law being nailed to the tree?
Let no man judge me what I eat, what I drink, what feasts I keep!
Where is the grace?
Are you making offerings and sacrifices because that is all in the Old Testament also?
Can we put color in our clothes, like rainbow? There were anointed spirit-led carpenters and seamstresses, God choose them to make the tabernacle in the wilderness... He loves beauty.
I am saddened that we have to waste time with all this nonsense, could be out there blessing people with the LOVE!

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




are you an American? 


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 00:37:48 -0600 "Slade Henson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  If you are in covenant with the Almighty, you are not a Gentile.

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




rofx666!!

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 07:13:56 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
   
  g, Im glad to see that you no longer sin. J Izzy
  
  
  -Original 
  Message-
  
  also, in 
  Romans,ALL who follow JCbiblically, by faith, have died to 
  sin

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently










Oh, so you have Eschatologically given up sin! Huh??? Iz



-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 3:10
PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone
Has Sinned Inadvertently





yes i've died
to sin, Iz--but I confess: i ain't dead yet whewy*666!!











'deadto
sin' in romans is the eschatological prerequisite to 'confessing'--two parts to
that (eternal) life: 1)confessing JC himself as in his teaching: 'if you
confess Me.. 2)in Christ, confessing our sin/s which is possible
only if you/we are 'dead to sin'











'what's better
than an apple a day', m'am?











see Jms
5:16:-) (and) ..confess y/our sins to each other and pray for each other
so that[we] may be healed.. 











(more on 'eschatological
prerequisite', above, later,if necessary--gotta run:-)









gary ottoson *
http://ozg2003.blogspot.com

Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread Terry Clifton







If I were working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks. Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change soon.
Terry
so, ifyou teo wereworkingfor Tommy Franks, would either of you followSadam's posted speed limiton the road/s to Baghdad?










 IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Gary wrote:
 ... confessing our sin/s which is possible 
 only if you/we are 'dead to sin'

I don't understand this statement.  Dead men don't confess anything.
They are dead.  Being dead to sin means you no longer sin.  Being alive
to sin means you continue to sin. 

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

David Miller wrote:
 They don't care that God's Word says 
 that those who are born of God cannot 
 sin.

Glenn wrote:
 This verse says continue in sin.  
 You know it but you explain it away.

I was talking about 1 John 5:18.  You know very well that it does NOT
say continue in sin, but you explain it away by pointing out how
another verse in the third chapter does say continue in sin.  

Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do
not continue in sin or do not continue to sin.  I don't see the
difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not
sin.  I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because
he said it both ways in the same book.  

So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being
imperfect?  What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me
for being imperfect?
 
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread Charles Perry Locke

David,

  Lets suppose that one is a Christian and does not sin because Christians 
do not sin.

  Then, lets suppose that this same Christian lusts for a woman in his 
heart, or commits some other act that the scripture identifies as sin.

  Does that mean that this person was/is not really a Christian?

  If he really was/is a Christian, is he not a Christian after sinning?

  What happens if this Christian, after realizing his sin, kneels down to 
confess his sin and ask for forgiveness, and he falls, hits his head, and 
dies prior to confessing it?

  Is his eternal fate after he sinned, but before he confessed, different 
than his eternal fate had he died before he sinned?

  Again, lets suppose that we have one who has been a Christian for only 3 
weeks, and commits a similar sin. Is this any different than a one who has 
been a Christian for 30 years and commits the same sin?

Perry




From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 20:54:42 -0500
David Miller wrote:
 They don't care that God's Word says
 that those who are born of God cannot
 sin.
Glenn wrote:
 This verse says continue in sin.
 You know it but you explain it away.
I was talking about 1 John 5:18.  You know very well that it does NOT
say continue in sin, but you explain it away by pointing out how
another verse in the third chapter does say continue in sin.
Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do
not continue in sin or do not continue to sin.  I don't see the
difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not
sin.  I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because
he said it both ways in the same book.
So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being
imperfect?  What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me
for being imperfect?
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may 
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) 
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread GJTabor

I "pick on you" because you claim perfection without actually claiming perfection. I don't see where the Apostle John claimed to be perfect, you do so claim. There is a vast difference in my mind in "continuing in sin" and committing a single sin in a moment of weakness. The Greek makes a difference. Sometimes we unintentionally proof text the verses we want to use to make a point and ignore the others. It's like one person said, no matter what verse they give, one can explain what it doesn't mean or explain away the plain common sense meaning.

I also think you have lowered the sin standard in order to be perfect. When in actuality you hate sin and are trying to fight hypocrites and wordiness in the church. God knows we need to fight hypocrites and worldliness in the church. I understand that. God knows we need to fight the doctrine that it is OK to sin. It is never OK to sin. Sin breaks God's heart. God hates sin so much He sent His only Son to die on the cross to save us from our sin. God also knows we need to fight the doctrine of easy believism. If there are no works, there is no assurance of salvation. The Bible says that God would that we were hot or cold. So then because we are neither hot or cold, He will spit us out of His mouth. Our churches are full of lukewarm people who cause God to vomit. God knows you are not lukewarm. Praise the Lord.

I'm sorry you feel I am picking on you. But it does seem to me you are not coming clean. For example, you don't have to admit you have exceeded the speed limit. All drivers have exceeded the speed limit. To me this was a mind game. Your IQ is much higher than most people and it seems to me you use your IQ to argue your perfection doctrine instead of coming clean. It seems to me you are playing "intelligent" games with words. I think you are an outstanding Christian, but I don't see perfection. Now, I don't think any less of you for it. I think you are a man of God. You say you are a prophet, I have no reason to doubt it. I respect you and my disagreement over the perfection doctrine is not intended to be a personal attack, but I am trying to point out imperfection.

If I am wrong, and you are as holy and perfect as God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, then forget what I say. Just write me off as not intelligent enough or spiritual enough to understand. :-) I see myself as a sinner (not currently continuing in sin) saved by faith through grace. I don't think there is any sin on earth that has ever been committed that I could also commit if given certain circumstances and timing. In my flesh dwelleth no good thing. The only good in me, is the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. As the Bible says there is a constant war between the flesh and the spirit. I'm sure you remember the Bible that says, what I don't want to do I do. What I want to do I don't do. Oh wretched man that I am.

My apologies to you for offending you.

David Miller wrote:
They don't care that God's Word says
that those who are born of God cannot
sin.

Glenn wrote:
This verse says "continue in sin".
You know it but you explain it away.

I was talking about 1 John 5:18. You know very well that it does NOT
say "continue in sin," but you explain it away by pointing out how
another verse in the third chapter does say "continue in sin."

Glenn - I don't explain it away. I explain it by letting the Bible explain it. The Bible is the best interpretation of itself.

Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with you saying that Christians do
not continue in sin or do not continue to sin. I don't see the
difference between saying that and saying that those born of God do not
sin. I don't think the apostle John saw much difference either because
he said it both ways in the same book.

So why do you pick on me and not pick on the apostle John for being
imperfect? What good does it do for you or for me to keep berating me
for being imperfect?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




thensome 
kindadisconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 
'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) 
how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks,alter your 
relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand 
it,you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regularIraqi citizen, you, 
as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' inc his 
posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question for readers 
like me to try to processaspects your view--but just ignore it if you 
think it is not relevant--regards, g) 


gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry Clifton" 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  

  
If I were working for Mr. 
Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks. Mr. 
Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to 
change soon.
Terry
so, ifyou teo 
wereworkingfor Tommy Franks, would either of you 
followSadam's posted speed limiton the road/s to Baghdad?




  

  
  


 IncrediMail - 
  Email has finally evolved - Click 
  Here
  gary ottoson * 
http://ozg2003.blogspot.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently






good questions; 
thx!

gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com

On Wed, 02 Apr 2003 02:59:33 + "Charles 
Perry Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David,  Lets 
suppose that one is a Christian and does not sin because  Christians 
 do not sin.  Then, lets suppose that 
this same Christian lusts for a woman in  his  heart, or commits 
some other act that the scripture identifies as  sin. 
 Does that mean that this person was/is not really a 
Christian?  If he really was/is a Christian, 
is he not a Christian after  sinning?  
What happens if this Christian, after realizing his sin, kneels  down to 
 confess his sin and ask for forgiveness, and he falls, hits his 
 head, and  dies prior to confessing it? 
 Is his eternal fate after he sinned, but before he 
confessed,  different  than his eternal fate had he died before 
he sinned?  Again, lets suppose that we have 
one who has been a Christian for  only 3  weeks, and commits a 
similar sin. Is this any different than a one  who has  been a 
Christian for 30 years and commits the same sin?  Perry 
||

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




no wonder we get along so perfectly


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:19:44 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I see myself as a sinner (not currently continuing in 
sin) saved by faith through grace.

Re: Possible_Spam Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-04-01 Thread Terry Clifton




G:
This is a no brainer. We are to obey those in authorrity 
over us, unless to obey them would mean disobeying God.The only way 
I would bein that country would be as a soldier, under authority. Since 
Saddam hates the true God, any order he gave would be in conflict with the 
Lord's will.

If I were a Christian Iraq citizen, I would try, as far as was 
possible, to live peacably with all men. This would include obeying 
traffic laws.
Terry

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:28 
  PM
  Subject: **Possible_Spam** Re: 
  **Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
  
  thensome 
  kindadisconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 
  'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) 
  how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks,alter your 
  relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand 
  it,you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regularIraqi citizen, you, 
  as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' inc his 
  posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question for 
  readers like me to try to processaspects your view--but just ignore it 
  if you think it is not relevant--regards, g) 
  
  
  gary ottoson * http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
  
  
  On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry Clifton" 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

  
  
If I were 
  working for Mr. Franks, I would obey Mr. 
  Franks. Mr. Hussein is not my 
  leader, and as near as I can tell, that is unlikely to change 
  soon.
  Terry
  so, ifyou teo 
  wereworkingfor Tommy Franks, would either of you 
  followSadam's posted speed limiton the road/s to Baghdad?
  
  
  
  

  


  
  
   IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - 
Click 
Here 
gary ottoson * 
  http://ozg2003.blogspot.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




if i tell you that the following 
activity Iz* an eschatological event, what would you say(?) 


* :-) l, g

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 14:10:05 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  "..confess y/our sins to each 
  other and pray for each other so that[we] may be healed.."

Re: Possible_Spam Re: Possible_Spam Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently




here's the source 
of the 'disconnect': 'those' (below) is plural; so 1) it is not a 'no brainer' 
partic while/when Gen Franks assumes temporary command of Iraq [a) Gen Franks 
can alter/control Iraqi law inc Sadams speed limits for bothUS soldiers 
and citizens at will (and is doing so now); b) but Sadam is at least equal to or 
greater in authority from God than Gen Franks--and these 'Godly' authorites 
conflict--keep in mind, neither of these men are Christians and you (as a 
Christian soldier OR Iraqi citizen in this example) are obligated (by your 
posted mindset/views) to obey both 'authorities'

ftr, i think DavidM 
is in approx the same 'intellectual boat' goin' roughly the same direction as 
yours (splittin' hairs) (from what I've read)--nevertheless it's just food for 
thought; i'm no expert or attorney; just hoping to be 
wise/serve God wisely--we'll see:-)

On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:14:30 -0600 "Terry Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  G:
  This is a no brainer. We are to obey those in 
  authorrity over us, unless to obey them would mean disobeying 
  God.The only way I would bein that country would be as a 
  soldier, under authority. Since Saddam hates the true God, any order he gave 
  would be in conflict with the Lord's will.
  
  If I were a Christian Iraq citizen, I would try, as far as 
  was possible, to live peacably with all men. This would include obeying 
  traffic laws.
  Terry
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 9:28 
PM
Subject: **Possible_Spam** Re: 
**Possible_Spam** Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

thensome 
kindadisconnect arises in your posted view/s between 'law' and 
'leadership'--note, though, i'm not terming this a contradiction now; (e.g.) 
how/why does your relationship to an outsider, Gen Franks,alter your 
relationship to Iraqi 'law'(?) (law which, given your view as i understand 
it,you would otherwise obey, i.e., as a regularIraqi citizen, 
you, as a Christian, would generally abide by the letter of Sadam's 'laws' 
inc his posted speed limits--no?) (also, pls keep in mind this is a question 
for readers like me to try to processaspects your view--but just 
ignore it if you think it is not relevant--regards, g) 

gary ottoson * 
http://ozg2003.blogspot.com


On Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:36:11 -0600 (Central Standard Time) "Terry 
Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  


  
If I were working for Mr. 
Franks, I would obey Mr. Franks. 
Mr. Hussein is not my leader, and as near as I can tell, 
that is unlikely to change soon.
Terry
so, ifyou teo 
wereworkingfor Tommy Franks, would either of you 
followSadam's posted speed limiton the road/s to Baghdad?




  

  
  


 
  IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click 
  Here 
  gary ottoson * 
http://ozg2003.blogspot.com
  gary ottoson * 
http://ozg2003.blogspot.com

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote:
 My entire premise is as you say.  The only exception 
 would be where you had to choose between obeying God 
 or man.  Since obeying the speed limit is not disobeying 
 God, it is not one of those exceptions.  Might better 
 double check that Bible.

Ok, let's double check the Bible on this.  Let's consider the idea that
there might be other exceptions besides choosing between obeying God and
obeying man.  In Matthew 12, the apostles of Jesus broke the Sabbath
laws established by the authorities.  Read carefully the explanation of
Jesus, because it corresponds very closely to everything I have been
teaching about this speed limit example.

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his
disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples
do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto
them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that
were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the
shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which
were with him, but only for the priests Or have ye not read in the law,
how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the
sabbath, and are blameless But I say unto you, That in this place is one
greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will
have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the
guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.  (Mat
12:1-8)

I'm sure that there were Pharisees who did not appreciate Jesus's
example here.  They probably thought things like, two wrongs don't make
a right and who does this man think he is?  He makes his own standard
of right and wrong.  They tested this by asking him after this if it
was right to heal on the Sabbath, and Jesus responded that it was
lawful, and then he healed a man right in front of them.  Of course,
this proved to them that Jesus was a sinner just as my teachings here
have proven to you and Glenn that I am a sinner.  The truth is, however,
that Jesus was not a sinner.  He only appeared to be a sinner in the
minds of legalistic law abiders.  Jesus appeared to be a sinner in the
eyes of legalism, in the eyes of those who strained at the literal
importance of strictly observing Shabbat.

None of these responses I mentioned are the right way to look at the
teachings of Jesus.  We must approach his teachings like little
children, ready to believe and understand their value.  Look carefully
at the passage in Matthew 12 that I quoted above.  What is Jesus trying
to get us to see?  He is trying to get us to look beyond the legalistic
mindset to see what is really in the mind of God regarding
righteousness.  The law really doesn't fully explain God's mind.  To see
God's mind, we would pay attention when the Scripture says, I will have
mercy, and not sacrifice.  This statement on the surface appears
contradictory because the law calls for sacrifice, so why would God
declare that he doesn't want sacrifice?  The truth is that there are
many exceptions to the law.  The law is actually spiritual, meant to
help us see righteousness.  When we begin to look at the law
spiritually, then we will begin to understand a righteousness that far
exceeds the law.  In many ways, we will be stricter than the law, in
that we will not lust with our eyes, or hate in our heart, whereas the
law primarily addresses physical acts of lust and murder.  In other
ways, we might appear more liberal than the conservative, strict law
abiders.  We might consider ourselves guiltless, and we would truly be
guiltless before God, even if we were to violate the letter in some
ways, just as the apostles of Christ in the example above were declared
guiltless by Jesus, even though they violated the Sabbath laws
established by the recognized authorities.

So the point of all this is that here is an example where the apostles
of Christ violated the laws established by the authorities, yet not
because they were obeying God rather than man, but simply because they
had freedom to do so.  They were hungry and they harvested corn, in
direct violation to the laws of Sabbath that said you must rest and not
work on Sabbath.  Even though they were sinners in the eyes of man for
violating the established laws concerning Sabbath, they were still
walking in love and keeping the spirit of the law, so they were
guiltless before God.  

Terry wrote:
 While we are on the Bible,  I was under the impression 
 that blasphemy was deliberate slander (MacArtur's definition).  
 It seems that telling a lie about the size of your offering 
 would not fit that definition.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.  I quoted the verse simply to illustrate
how blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is worse than blasphemy against
others.  The principle is that the Holy Spirit is the gentle side of God
and is afforded a different degree

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote:
 Are you claiming to be greater than the temple
 (equal to Jesus), or are you saying that I can 
 tear all that stuff out of the new testament 
 about obeying the government if it is a minor 
 thing, because the sabbath was made for man and 
 the Pharisees did not understand that to be the case?

I don't think I understand your question well enough to answer it.
Nobody should tear out either the New Testament or the Old Testament.
What we should try and do is understand that both are spiritual.  The
law is spiritual, and good if one uses it correctly, but in the wrong
hands, the law can wreak havoc.

Jesus was not teaching believers to ignore the Sabbath laws.  What he
was doing was teaching what is truly righteous in God's eyes concerning
Sabbath observance.

The key point to understand here is that the law must be thrown out so
to speak, with regard to how we work out righteousness through faith.
This does not mean that we then transgress the law.  Certainly not.  Our
method of obedience is simply changed, from one where we know the rules
and try our best not to violate them, to one whereby we are led by the
Holy Spirit and walk in love.  What we will find is that when we are led
by the Spirit and walk in love, we will fulfill the righteous
requirements of the law.  We might still have some, like the Pharisees,
who strain at gnats and falsely accuse us of being guilty of breaking
the law, but we will know through the Spirit and faith in Christ that we
walk in love and obey all that Jesus commands us to do.

Terry wrote:
 This is all very confusing, and this confusion forces me 
 to keep all the rules or be a sinner, because I am not at 
 all certain which ones I can ignore.  Being what you call 
 a legalist seems to be the only sane thing to do, unless 
 of course, you get direct revelations from above like some 
 of these prophets.

Yes, divine revelation is necessary, and that is why when we believe in
Christ Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit.  Without the Holy Spirit, it
would be difficult to know right from wrong in all situations, unless,
as you say, we were a legalist.  We learn how to walk in the Spirit by
giving close heed to the teachings of Jesus, just like the Matthew 12
passage that I quoted for you.  

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread Slade Henson




Hello, Terry and David. 
Ive been trying to stay 
out of this conversation, but Im like my three-year-old daughter in a 
candy store.

Without your permission 
(since youre not here for me to ask), Id like to explain why I see things 
the way I see them, but it may take a paragraph or 
four.

When I began reading the 
Bible myself, I began reading at Malachi. Then I read Zechariah, and so on, 
until I got to Ezekiel. By that time, I was in crisis because my faith was 
terribly shaken. The prophets were telling the people return to YHVH, return 
to Torah, return to Shabbat, return to loving each other. No one was 
listening.

You see, the prophets were 
not saying Torah or Shabbat, or loving others guaranteed Salvation (in terms of 
Eternal Life). Moshe/Moses never guaranteed Eternal Life in His writings either. 
Moshe and the Prophets, however, said blessings would come through obedience to 
these rules and curses would abound if the commandments were ignored. Simple 
process. Eternal life is a completely different issue and Im not even going to 
speak about it here otherwise I will be accused of mixing my messages and I 
dont want that.

You see, what I read in the 
Prophets contradicted what I had always been told in my Baptist background. The 
Prophets were begging YHVHs children to come back to Him and His Torah, yet I 
was taught that the Torah was nailed to the cross! I saw a problem. I saw 
dichotomy because the Prophets said that the commands were forever. Could that 
be true? Paul of Tarsus changed it all and Yeshua nailed it to the cross. 
Right?

To solve my perplexing problem, I decided to read the Foundation 
of my horror: the Torah. I went to the beginning of the book and read  in order 
this time  Genesis through Deuteronomy. However, when I finished, I was worse 
off than before. The Law is the impossible taskmaster, I was told, yet Moshe 
said it was easy. [Note: Luke 1:6 says its easy, too!] Who was I to 
believe?

I decided to read the book of Acts and the writings of Paul to 
make sure I was taught right. Sure enough, as I read those books with the 
Baptist eyeglasses I was given, the New Testament contradicted the Old. 


As I lied in bed that night, I decided that in the 
morning I was going to throw away the New Testament because it was the creation 
of the Adversary and it was perpetuated by the Roman Catholic Church. I decided 
I was going to join Ultra-Orthodox Judaism (as long as they didnt demand 
bloodletting because Im already circed). However, I couldnt sleep because I 
was haunted by a thought that popped into my itty bitty mind that said, What 
were the last recorded words of Paul? I got up to read

After three 
days Paul called together those who were the leading men of the Judeans, and 
when they came together, he began saying to them, "Brethren, though I had 
done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was 
delivered as a prisoner from Yerushalayim into the hands of the Romans. And when 
they had examined me, they were willing to release me because there was no 
ground for putting me to death. But when the Jews objected, I was forced to 
appeal to Caesar, not that I had any accusation against my nation. For this 
reason, therefore, I requested to see you and to speak with you, for I am 
wearing this chain for the sake of the hope of Yisrael." They said to him, "We 
have neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor have any of the 
brethren come here and reported or spoken anything bad about you. But we desire 
to hear from you what your views are; for concerning this sect, it is known to 
us that it is spoken against everywhere." (Acts 
28:22)

Why was Paul arrested? Because the Sadducees said he 
preached against the Torah and because he (Paul) had a hope in the Resurrection 
(and the Sadducees didnt). Some of the sect of the Pharisees said Stephen 
preached against the Torah and the Temple, but the book of Acts says the men 
against Stephen were FALSE WITNESSES.

When they had set a day 
for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was 
explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to 
persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Torah (Law of Moses) and from the 
Prophets, from morning until evening. The things spoken were persuading 
some, but others would not believe. (Acts 
28:23-24)

Unfortunately some were not persuaded. Why? Luke the 
Chronicler tells us why

And when they did not 
agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting 
word, The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 
saying, Go to this people and say, You will keep on hearing, but will not 
understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of 
this people has become dull, And with their ears they scarcely hear, And they 
have closed their eyes; Otherwise they might see with their eyes,

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread Terry Clifton







David:
What you say sounds real good, but it just doesn't add up. Those instructions are written in the Bible for a reason, and that reason is not that we should dismiss them as being the tools of legalists. Jesus, James, Peter and Paul did not talk just to hear themselves. They gave instructions..We follow those instructions, as best we can. The freedom from the law not withstanding. I hope some day you will be able to see that. Your freedom does not make you free to disobey when you feel the urge.

Terry
---Original Message---


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Monday, March 31, 2003 03:14:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Terry wrote: Are you claiming to be greater than the temple (equal to Jesus), or are you saying that I can  tear all that stuff out of the new testament  about obeying the government if it is a minor  thing, because the sabbath was made for man and  the Pharisees did not understand that to be the case?I don't think I understand your question well enough to answer it.Nobody should tear out either the New Testament or the Old Testament.What we should try and do is understand that both are spiritual. Thelaw is spiritual, and good if one uses it correctly, but in the wronghands, the law can wreak havoc.Jesus was not teaching believers to ignore the Sabbath laws. What hewas doing was teaching what is truly righteous in God's eyes concerningSabbath observance.The key point to understand here is that the law must be thrown out soto speak, with regard to how we work out righteousness through faith.This does not mean that we then transgress the law. Certainly not. Ourmethod of obedience is simply changed, from one where we know the rulesand try our best not to violate them, to one whereby we are led by theHoly Spirit and walk in love. What we will find is that when we are ledby the Spirit and walk in love, we will fulfill the righteousrequirements of the law. We might still have some, like the Pharisees,who strain at gnats and falsely accuse us of being guilty of breakingthe law, but we will know through the Spirit and faith in Christ that wewalk in love and obey all that Jesus commands us to do.Terry wrote: This is all very confusing, and this confusion forces me  to keep all the rules or be a sinner, because I am not at  all certain which ones I can ignore. Being what you call  a legalist seems to be the only sane thing to do, unless  of course, you get direct revelations from above like some  of these prophets.Yes, divine revelation is necessary, and that is why when we believe inChrist Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, itwould be difficult to know right from wrong in all situations, unless,as you say, we were a legalist. We learn how to walk in the Spirit bygiving close heed to the teachings of Jesus, just like the Matthew 12passage that I quoted for you. Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.. 







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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote:
 What you say sounds real good, but it just 
 doesn't add up.  Those instructions are written 
 in the Bible for a reason, and that reason is 
 not that we should dismiss them as being the 
 tools of legalists.

This is exactly why I said, Nobody should tear out either the New
Testament or the Old Testament.  What we should try and do is understand
that both are spiritual.  You are simply repeating what I have said,
but for some reason saying that it doesn't add up.  

The law is like learning the alphabet in preparation for reading.  Once
you begin reading, the mechanics of reading are not so strict.  Someone
might complain about your stroke being wrong with regard to how the
letter is suppose to look (maybe you write in cursive and the critic
thinks it should not be cursive), but if the words can still be read,
you may go on without too much regard for the criticism.

Terry wrote:
 They gave instructions..We follow those instructions, 
 as best we can.

Right.  All their instructions, not just some of their instructions.
Some of their instruction is that the law is spiritual, that
righteousness does not come through the law, that the handwriting of
ordinances of the law were against us and so Christ nailed it to the
cross, that there has been a disannulling of the commandment concerning
the Aaronic priesthood, that apostles broke the commandments of the
authorities concerning Sabbath and were guiltless, etc.  We can't just
take part of their teachings and disregard the rest of it.  My position
consolidates all the teachings together without ignoring any part of
them.

Terry wrote:
 Your freedom does not make you free 
 to disobey when you feel the urge.

I agree whole heartedly.  Paul too had those that misunderstood him, and
so he wrote in Romans, ... shall we sin, because we are not under the
law, but under grace? God forbid (Romans 6:15).

Paul also explained further concerning this freedom we have:

Gal 5:13  For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not
liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

So how do you understand the apostles breaking the Sabbath teachings of
the authorities when they plucked ears of corn to eat?  Do you agree
that they were not obeying God rather than men?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread Terry Clifton







Jesus and His disciples were Jews, still under the law at the time. To break the law would be sin, yet Jesus never sinned. The only explanation, therefore isthat the Jewish leaders did not understand what keeping the sabbath entailed. Jesus knew the law. They did not.
TerrySo how do you understand the apostles breaking the Sabbath teachings ofthe authorities when they plucked ears of corn to eat? Do you agreethat they were not "obeying God rather than men"?Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.--"







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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread Slade Henson







  
  

  Terry said:
  
Jesus and His disciples were Jews, still under the law at the 
time. To break the law would be sin, yet Jesus never sinned. 
The only explanation, therefore isthat the Jewish leaders did not 
understand what keeping the sabbath entailed. Jesus knew the 
law. They did not.
  
  slade says:
  
HalleluYAH!!!

Yes, Terry! YES! YES!! YES!!! You've hit 
the mark right in the bull's eye! When Yeshua said he came to fulfill 
the Law (Torah) he actually said he came to FILL IT FULL (Strong's 
#G4137 , Pleroo -- to "make full"). By removing the SHACKLES and the 
BONDAGE of over 1,050 additional DOs and DON'Ts of Pharisaic Shabbat 
keeping, he made it once again a command for mankind, not mankind for 
the command!

You get an A+, Terry!

-- 
  slade

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: Monday, 31 March, 2003 22:32
  Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has 
  Sinned Inadvertently
  
  

  
Jesus and His disciples were Jews, still under the law at the 
time. To break the law would be sin, yet Jesus never sinned. 
The only explanation, therefore isthat the Jewish leaders did not 
understand what keeping the sabbath entailed. Jesus knew the 
law. They did not.
TerrySo how do you understand the apostles breaking 
the Sabbath teachings ofthe authorities when they plucked ears of 
corn to eat? Do you agreethat they were not "obeying God rather than 
men"?Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, 
  Florida.

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread ttxpress






Romans teaches that in the kingdom of God, 
Jewish followers of Jesus by faith have been 'released' from the Law of 
Moses--obviously Gentiles who follow Jesus by faith are 'delivered' from it, too 


[Gentiles, as Terry pointed out once, a loo~ong 
ti~iime ag~go :-) were never under it]

also, in Romans,ALL who follow 
JCbiblically, by faith, have died to sin;and,dead to sin, they 
ALL realize that the Law isdead;it simply can't do for 
themwhat faith can

Jesus teaches this faith (in himself) not Law; Moses 
teaches this faith in Jesus not Law; so do the Prophets

the Ap Paul believed them; he studied them diligently, too; and, through the Holy Spirit's powerhe 
was able to understand/teachall who would come to Jesusby faith (at 
his rented quarters in Rome, where he probably wrote Romans)'the kingdom 
of God' not Law (Acts 28)

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-31 Thread Slade Henson

You said...
Romans teaches that in the kingdom of God,
Jewish followers of Jesus by faith have been 'released' from the Law of
Moses--obviously Gentiles who follow Jesus by faith are 'delivered' from it, too

Slade says...
Gentiles have no reason to keep any law of God
at all. They don't have to love God or love their neighbor. They can curse God
and it doesn't matter a spit. What they do has no bearing on the Kingdom
WHATSOEVER.

Do you know why??

THERE ARE NO GENTILES IN THE KINGDOM OF
GOD!!

Perhaps you need to read Romans 11 again. Those
who were formerly far off have been brought close. THEY ARE GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL.
They are NO LONGER GENTILES.

If you are in covenant with the Almighty, you
are not a Gentile. You need to start getting your semantics straight. If you
want to continue calling yourself a Gentile, perhaps you really need to take a
close look at your relationship with the God of Israel.

-- slade

By the way, I never said works and the Law was a
replacement for faith or that the "method by which we get to the Kingdom" is
through the Law. Salvation was NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER the intent of the Law.
Even in the days of Moshe, the Law was NOT THE METHOD of gaining Eternal Life.
Get that idea out of your head. It doesn't belong there. Stop suggesting such
garbage and stop insinuating that Torah Observance is or was a substitute for
Grace at any time in World History.

And another thing: Jesus taught two things. He
taught the PROPER application of Torah (Matt 5-7 is but one example);
Heoften taught by debunking the common thought of the day. He also taught
that salvation came through faith.

James taught that the refusal to apply Torah to
your life was proof that you do not have saving faith.

And you are right. If you fellow "JC" biblically
(which is by faith), you will die to sin ; but if you don't apply His Torah, you
will die IN your sins. James tells you so. Believe him.

-- slade, again

- Original Message -
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Monday, 31 March, 2003 23:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has
Sinned Inadvertently

Romans teaches that in the kingdom of
God, Jewish followers of Jesus by faith have been 'released' from the Law of
Moses--obviously Gentiles who follow Jesus by faith are 'delivered' from it,
too

[Gentiles, as Terry pointed out once, a loo~ong
ti~iime ag~go :-) were never under it]

also, in Romans,ALL who follow
JCbiblically, by faith, have died to sin;and,dead to sin,
they ALL realize that the Law isdead;it simply can't do for
themwhat faith can

Jesus teaches this faith (in himself) not Law; Moses
teaches this faith in Jesus not Law; so do the Prophets

the Ap Paul believed them; he studied them diligently, too; and, through the Holy Spirit's powerhe
was able to understand/teachall who would come to Jesusby faith
(at his rented quarters in Rome, where he probably wrote Romans)'the
kingdom of God' not Law (Acts 28)

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-30 Thread Terry Clifton







David: 
I don't know anything about legalism or Saturday worship or illegal Bible studies.I do know that God hates sin. For your sake, I hope you are right and I am wrong, but from what I see in what you have communicated, you are a sinner who sets his own standards. Like I said, I hope I am wrong.

Terry
---Original Message---


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, March 30, 2003 15:53:42
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently
Terry wrote: I pointed out that this is not a sin  because it endangers others, but because  you, or I, have failed to obey those in  authority over us.We clearly define sin differently. I believe that sin is anything thatis not a manifestation of love. Selfishness is sin. Let me ask you ifyou would agree with the following axiom:* A person can fail to obey authority over them and still not sin. *If this axiom is true, then we cannot define sin as failing to obeythose in authority. Failing to obey authority might be a sin, and itmight be a sin in most situations, but we cannot define sin as a failureto obey authority.I believe that every action that fails to obey authorities would only bea sin if it can be shown how it either harms someone else or harms God.For example, authorities typically have zoning laws that make havingprayer meetings, Bible studies, and church in your home illegal. I donot believe it is a sin to have church in your home, unless you are notbeing loving toward your neighbor with regard to parking, etc.Technically, you would be breaking the law, but in actual practice, theauthorities don't do much about it unless you harm your neighbor in someway (for example, by parking on their property or blocking their entryto their property). So I would say that unless you harmed your neighborin some way, then having church in your home is not a sin (even thoughtechnically, you have failed to obey those in authority). Would youconsider it a sin or not? Would you not gather together in your home orsomeone else's home just because the authorities said that you were notallowed to do that in a neighborhood zoned residential?Terry wrote: The fact remains, you have not obeyed God's  instruction to obey the authorities.I believe that I have, and I doubt that you can find anyone in authoritywho wants to prosecute me if I accidentally slipped over the speed limitby a few mph. I think you are not only being stricter than God here,but stricter than the authorities also. The goal and purpose of theauthorities is to help people drive in a safe manner. The rules andpenalties are put in place to try and help them enforce the idea ofpeople driving safely. If someone accidentally slips over the speedlimit by a few mph, that doesn't mean that they are suddenly in thecategory of an unsafe driver and ought to be prosecuted. This is howthe "letter of the law" approach fails. The letter of the law isincapable of producing true righteousness, and it often leads to peoplehaving legalistic mindsets, which misses entirely what truerighteousness is all about. Terry wrote: I think that to assume that He passes off any  sin as being not worth His notice is to underestimate  how much He hates sin.You are missing the point. The point is not about God forgiving sin, orpassing off sin, but rather, the question is about whether God is alegalist and considers someone slipping a few mph over the speed limitset by man to be a sinner deserving of eternal damnation in hell fire.I speak for God in saying no, God does not damn a man to eternaldamnation in hell fire for that, in fact, he considers it no sin at all.You say that God considers it a sin worthy of eternal damnation. Thepremise for your viewpoint is a legalistic one. You say that becauseGod instructs us to submit and obey the authorities, and slipping overthe speed limit a few mph violates that instruction, then sin hashappened and eternal damnation is the righteous judgment for theinfraction.My response to this is that you are being legalistic, just like theSaturday worshippers who insist on worshipping God on the day of Saturninstead of the day of the Sun / Son. Let us keep the true Sabbath(which is not Saturday), and let us also be safe drivers. The path todoing this is to walk in love, not in making sure we not violate oneiota of what is written. A person can keep every jot and tittle of thelaw and yet not be righteous enough to inherit the kingdom of God, and aperson can miss a jot or tittle and be righteous enough to enter thekingdom of God.Terry wrote: 1. If Ananias and spouse were Christians, were only  their past sins covered by the blood of Christ, or were  all their sins covered, Past and future?Only past sins were covered, as taught in Romans:Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemptionthat is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith inhis blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins th

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-30 Thread GJTabor

David, this is where you are being imperfect. You are not coming clean. Of course, you have slipped over the speed limit. You are word playing here.

Please, David, remove your blinders. Your preaching on campus has blinded you. 
 
Here's the real truth. While claiming to be against sin you have lowered the standard for sin. You are actually doing the opposite of what you think. By your lowered sin standards I am perfect. Biblically speaking I am not perfect. 


Hey Terry. Why have you tried and convicted me? I never admitted to
slipping over the speed limit before, and I haven't seen any evidence
from you that I have! :-) I thought we were talking about those who
might have done so, not about me. :-)

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-30 Thread ttxpress





On Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:59:29 -0600 "Terry 
Clifton" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:My entire premise is as you say. The 
only exception would be where you had to choose between obeying God or 
*man*.. 

[DavidM:] . My standard for 
defining sin is what is taught in the Bible. I do notset my 
own standards. 

so, ifyou teo 
wereworkingfor Tommy Franks, would either of you followSadam's 
posted speed limiton the road/s to Baghdad?

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-30 Thread GJTabor

Again you are not coming clean. David, you have convinced me your perfect doctrine is wrong by your participation on TT. Over and over I have see you a man of God but a man of God FAR FAR from perfect. This verse says "continue in sin". You know it but you explain it away. You're sincerely blinded.


They don't care that God's Word
says that those who are born of God cannot sin.

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread David Miller

Terry wrote:
 The law says fifty-five. You drive fifty-seven.  
 Bingo! You have broken the law, just as surely 
 as if you deliberately drove ninety.  

I'm not sure we are going to get anywhere discussing this, but I'm going
to try yet again.  Your statement above has everything to do with the
Sabbath dispute on this forum.  It clearly exemplifies the difference
between legalism and being UNDER LAW, and the covenant of the Spirit
which is motivated by love.

The way that love looks at this example is that if you slip over 55,
either by accident or because your speedometer is off by 5 mph, as long
as nobody is hurt by the incident, there is no sin.  

Another point that I was trying to make before was that this is not a
crime, even according to man's law.  It is called a civil infraction.
Now if you hurt someone, that would be a crime.  Civil infractions are
rules that are meant to prevent crimes (prevent sins).  I agree with
Slade that if you ignore the traffic laws, you will find yourself
falling into sin.  I do no advocate speeding.  Nevertheless, someone
accidentally driving 57 mph in a 55 zone for a minute, and someone
purposely driving 90 mph in a 55 zone, is not the same thing.  According
to a legalist, you might argue that there is no difference, but from a
moralist's position, they are not equivalent.

If we could understand this distinction concerning legalism, I might be
ready to talk about the 7th day versus the 8th day Sabbath.  Read
carefully Romans 10:1-13, paying attention to the two ways of
righteousness talked about there.  

Terry wrote:
 The fact that you hurt no one and ALMOST obeyed 
 is similar to Ananias and Sapphira.  They lied, 
 but it wasn't a complete lie.  They didn't hurt 
 anyone, and they did give some money, so they 
 almost told the truth.

Almost told the truth?  Is this suppose to be funny?  They LIED to the
Holy Ghost!  What greater sin could there be?  That is worse than Ted
Bundy's serial murders.

Terry wrote:
 As to whether or not they are in Hell, 
 the Bible does not say.

Does the Bible have to spell it out for you?  They lied to the Holy
Ghost.  They fell dead at Peter's feet.  

So someone who drives 57 in a 55 mph zone is going to hell even if that
is the only thing he has ever done wrong in his whole life, but Ananias
and Sapphira don't go to hell for lying to the Holy Ghost?  Is that what
you are saying?  I don't mean to sound curt.  I'm trying to make sure
that I'm hearing you correctly.  I'm still assimilating your position.
I've been talking to my wife about it for two days now.  :-)  I've been
praying about this too.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread David Miller

David Miller wrote:
..I feel free of sin. Some people think I'm 
arrogant and self righteous, but I see that  
this is the work of Christ in me, taking sin 
out of my life. 

Gary wrote:
 your idea of 'perfection ... is your own 
 philosophy, has nothin' to do with Scripture; 

It is solidly found in Scripture, such as the books of Hebrews,
Philippians, and 1 John, and Matthew 5.  I learned this from reading the
Scriptures, and I have found that many other men, such as John Wesley,
also learned it from reading the Scriptures.

Gary wrote:
 e.g., (so) how can this (ff.) be true while 
 you refuse to 'confess' sin?

I do NOT refuse to confess sin.  How many times must I repeat that one
receives forgiveness when one confesses his sin?  What I do not do is
make up the foolish notion that I have sinned in many ways every day in
ways unknown to me.  Some people confess unknown sins.  I don't believe
in that.  That is self abasement, and is a sin in itself.  Whatever is
not of faith is sin.  I believe and trust in Jesus to take care of sin
in my life.

Have you ever experienced forgiveness as the result of confessing your
sin?  Aren't you set free of it?  Don't you feel freedom from the guilt
associated with it? 

The last time I confessed my sin was about 13 months ago.  I had stepped
outside of following the Holy Spirit, was chastised for it, and repented
of it.  Even though in my mind I know that I sinned 13 months ago, I
feel free of it, as if I had never sinned, and by God's grace I will
never repeat that sin again.  I've been tempted several times, but I
turn away from it immediately as the voice of the Spirit is crystal
clear and I will not be deceived again (God willing -- by the grace of
God).

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread ttxpress






On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:21:12 -0500 "David 
Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I learned this from readingthe 
Scriptures[:]
..I feel free of sin...the 
work of Christ in me, taking sin out of my life. 


this is nonsense, not biblical; false and 
erroneous theology, too

 Gary wrote:  e.g., (so) 
how can this (ff.) be true while   you refuse to 'confess' 
sin? 
[DavidM:]I do NOT refuse to confess 
sin...What I do not do ismake up the foolish notion that I have 
sinned

i see what you mean (sadly, DavudM); your 
philosophy of perfection is that youarbitrarily (based on 
self-righteousness) eliminate the need to confess

ftr, this kinda teaching is not 'inadvertant sin'; like Plato's, it defies the Holy 
Spirit

i wouldn't be surprzed if even John Wesley 
himself is spinnin' in his grave

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread Terry Clifton

C'mon David.  You would pray every day and talk to your wife even if I
weren't trying to make a point.

I am going to take another tack this time, and maybe help you understand
what I am saying.  I am sure that we have this problem because 1. I am not
the best communucator, and 2.you are hearing something those around you do
not espouse.

I picked what anyone, including me, would consider to be the least of all
sins.  Going a couple of miles over the speed limit.  I pointed out that
this is not a sin because it endangers others, but because you, or I, have
failed to obey those in authority over us.  Those people are empowered by
God, to tell you the maximum speed you can travel in a given area.  When you
exceed that speed, you break their rules, and that is sin, whether the
policeman arrests you or not, whether everybody does it or not, whether
anyone really cares or not.

 The fact remains, you have not obeyed God's instruction to obey the
authorities.  Going over the limit is therefore a sin, whether you go
fifty-seven or ninety-seven.  The law has been broken in both cases.  The
only difference is the degree to which it was broken.  To say otherwise
means that you, the individual, must decide what your personal speed limit
is, making you your own authority, and defying the God given authority
placed over you.  If you tell other Christians that you have decided that
fifty-seven is no big deal, and you cannot picture Jesus getting upset about
it, they may decide that fifty-eight is no big deal, then the next guy
figures fifty-nine is still in the fifties, no big deal.  Before you know
it, you have sinned by defying the authorities, you have sinned by
disobeying God, you have sinned by making yourself the judge, and you have
sinned by leading others astray.  What does it take to get Jesus worked up?
Do you know?  I don't.

There is no question that God is love, more merciful than we can imagine,
ready to forgive the moment we repent, especially if our sin was not
intentional, but I think that to assume that He passes off any sin as being
not worth His notice is to underestimate how much He hates sin. To say that
sin is not sin because it is such a minute infraction compared to murder or
adultery is to take away God's right to say how bad little sins are.  He may
not appreciate you making those decisions for Him.
End of subject.

Now, a couple of questions for you.  Not to test you or to be snide.  I
really want to know.

1. If Annanias and spouse were Christians, were only their past sins covered
by the blood of Christ, or were all their sins covered, Past and future?

2. Is lying to the Holy Spirit worse than lying to anyone else?

3.If Annanias and Sapphira went to Hell as you assume, was it because they
lost their salvation when they lied, or were they never saved to begin with?

Terry
P.S. My apology to your wife.  Did not mean to burden her by agitating you.


- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently


 Terry wrote:
  The law says fifty-five. You drive fifty-seven.
  Bingo! You have broken the law, just as surely
  as if you deliberately drove ninety.

 I'm not sure we are going to get anywhere discussing this, but I'm going
 to try yet again.  Your statement above has everything to do with the
 Sabbath dispute on this forum.  It clearly exemplifies the difference
 between legalism and being UNDER LAW, and the covenant of the Spirit
 which is motivated by love.

 The way that love looks at this example is that if you slip over 55,
 either by accident or because your speedometer is off by 5 mph, as long
 as nobody is hurt by the incident, there is no sin.

 Another point that I was trying to make before was that this is not a
 crime, even according to man's law.  It is called a civil infraction.
 Now if you hurt someone, that would be a crime.  Civil infractions are
 rules that are meant to prevent crimes (prevent sins).  I agree with
 Slade that if you ignore the traffic laws, you will find yourself
 falling into sin.  I do no advocate speeding.  Nevertheless, someone
 accidentally driving 57 mph in a 55 zone for a minute, and someone
 purposely driving 90 mph in a 55 zone, is not the same thing.  According
 to a legalist, you might argue that there is no difference, but from a
 moralist's position, they are not equivalent.

 If we could understand this distinction concerning legalism, I might be
 ready to talk about the 7th day versus the 8th day Sabbath.  Read
 carefully Romans 10:1-13, paying attention to the two ways of
 righteousness talked about there.

 Terry wrote:
  The fact that you hurt no one and ALMOST obeyed
  is similar to Ananias and Sapphira.  They lied,
  but it wasn't a complete lie.  They didn't hurt
  anyone, and they did give some money, so they
  almost told the truth.

 Almost told the truth?  Is this suppose to be funny?  They LIED

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread David Miller

Gary wrote:
 this is nonsense, not biblical; 
 false and erroneous theology, too

Well, if you are ignorant of the Bible's teaching on this matter, then
let me show you some Bible that teaches this.

Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in
him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God
hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God,
and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have
boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this
world.  (1Jo 4:15-17)

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not
the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they
offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 
Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because
that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of
sins.

The converse is that in Christ, we have no more conscience of sins.  I
have experienced this.  I have no more conscience of sins, and in the
Scriptures, this is what is promised, so why then do you call me evil?
Is it because I have a pure conscience?  

Acts 24:16  And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience
void of offense toward God, and toward men.

1Jo 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in
the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jo 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that
is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him
not.

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.

1Jo 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk,
even as he walked.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is
no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not
seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he
that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.  (1John
3:5-7) 

Gary wrote:
 i see what you mean (sadly, DavudM); 
 your philosophy of perfection is that 
 you arbitrarily (based on self-righteousness) 
 eliminate the need to confess

What? Are you arguing for Catholic confession or something like it?  I
don't understand why when I keep pointing out that I believe in
confessing sin when people sin that you keep saying that I eliminate the
need to confess.  Are you saying that I eliminate the ritual of
confession, as in Roman Catholicism confessionals?

I believe Hebrews 6:1, 

Heb 6:1  Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let
us go on unto perfection; NOT LAYING AGAIN the foundation of repentance
from dead works [confession of sin]

Gary wrote:
 i wouldn't be surprzed if even John Wesley 
 himself is spinnin' in his grave

John Wesley wrote in his A Plain Account of Christian Perfection the
following:
-
In what sense then are they perfect?  ... even babes in Christ are so
far perfect as not to commit sin.  This St. John affirms expressly; and
it cannot be disproved by the examples of the Old Testament.  ... from
Solomon to Christ there was no then no man that sinned not... we may
safely affirm with St. John, that, since the gospel was given, 'he that
is born of God sinneth not.'  ... IN CONFORMITY, THEREFORE, BOTH TO THE
DOCTRINE OF ST. JOHN, AND THE WHOLE TENOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, WE FIX
THIS CONCLUSION:  A CHRISTIAN IS SO FAR PERFECT AS NOT TO COMMIT SIN.

This is the glorious privilege of every Christian, yea, though he be but
a babe in Christ.  But it is only of grown Christians it can be affirmed
they are in such a sense perfect as, Secondly, to be freed from evil
thoughts and evil tempers. ...

Thus doth Jesus save his people from their sins; not only from outward
sins, but from the sins of their hearts.  'True,' say some, 'but not
till death, not in this world.'  Nay, St. John says, 'Herein is our love
made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because,
as he is, so are we in this world.'  The apostle here, beyond all
contradiction, speaks of himself and other living Christians, of whom he
flatly affirms that, not only at or after death, but 'in this world,'
they are 'as their Master.'


Gary, I think you and John Wesley are on opposite sides of the fence on
this one, while John Wesley and I are in good agreement.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-26 Thread ttxpress






On Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:52:58 -0500 "David 
Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gary wrote:  this is nonsense, 
not biblical;   false and erroneous theology, too 
..if you are ignorant of the Bible's teaching on this 
matter...
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is 
the Son of God
so much for this thread; when you post 
somethingin context, i'll be interested inreading 
that

 Gary wrote:  i see what 
you mean (sadly, DavidM);   your philosophy of perfection is that 
  you arbitrarily (based on self-righteousness)   
eliminate the need to confess [DavidM:]
 ..I believe in confessing sin when 
people sin 

take a hint from Iz, in the spirit of 
(true) _tt_, try posting something at least somewhat objective  reflective 
on your own sin, Padre~

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Terry wrote:
 It seems to me that many things can 
 be sins without being crimes.  
 Abortion and self righteousness and 
 coveting are not even misdemeanors, 
 but they are terrible sins.  

I agree that man often excuses many things that are sins.  Nevertheless,
I think of a sin as being a crime in the eyes of God.  With regard to
how fast one goes on a highway, I think what constitutes a sin is what
is an unsafe speed in the eyes of God.  Men have frailty in being able
to judge such matters, in measuring speed, and in keeping themselves
within a speed that they are trying to keep within.  Therefore, I don't
think one can conclude that if someone goes 36 in a 35 zone, that he has
automatically offended God and will be damned to hell except for the
blood of Christ.  This truly seems ridiculous to me, and I'm amazed that
the concept is being defended.

Sin is serious.  The wages of sin is death.  I do not see ACCIDENTALLY
slipping a mile or two over a man-made speed limit as something which
causes God to send a person to eternal damnation except he repent and
believe upon Jesus Christ.  On the other hand, I do see drunkenness,
fornication, adultery, stealing, murder, covetousness, idolatry, taking
the Lord's name in vain, etc. all in this category that causes God to
send you to eternal damnation, save for repentance, faith, and the blood
of Jesus Christ.

Terry wrote:
 When God said obey the government, He did not put 
 in an exception for the small stuff.  If the government 
 says to do something, and you do not do something, you 
 sin, not because it is a crime, but because God has given 
 them the authority to regulate your behavior, and He has 
 given them the authority to change the law, including speed 
 limits, as they see fit.  

According to what you just said, thousands of people sin when they
assemble in homes for church or prayer meetings because the zoning laws
of most large cities prohibit such activity.  I certainly agree that we
need to submit unto the governments that be, but we don't necessarily
sin just because we violate some law that they created.  Daniel didn't
sin when he prayed three times a day just because the law of men made
said that he should not do it.  I violated laws of men in Tampa that
said that I could not preach or hand out tracts downtown, but I did not
sin.  I violated laws of men when I fed and clothed the hungry and naked
in a downtown park, but I did not sin.  In fact, I think it would have
been sin for me not to have violated those laws of men.

Terry wrote:
 Now that you know that, you have to watch that speedometer, 
 or end up a dirty old sinner like Slade and Perry, and Izzy 
 and me.  :-)

LOL.  I love your sense of humor, Terry.  

I hope you understand that I believe in observing traffic laws.  We were
talking about the possibility for someone to slip over the speed limit
accidentally.  Would that be a sin?  I agree with everyone that human
frailty makes this a possibility, but I see this the same as if I
dropped my car keys by mistake.  I do not see the moral crime in this
mistake.  I do not consider it a sin.  I suspect that even if a
policeman watched you slip over the speed limit by a few mph, and then
slip back to the speed limit again, that he would not stop you and give
you a ticket.  

The thing is, I do not believe in sin consciousness.  If you read the
book of Hebrews, it teaches us that Christ came to make us perfect in
our conscience.  In other words, the unique work of Christ in the New
Covenant is to make us feel as if we are not sinners, and to make us
feel even as if we never were sinners.  Consider the following passages:

Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest
of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet
standing: 
Heb 9:9  Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were
offered both gifts and sacrifices, that COULD NOT MAKE him that did the
service PERFECT, AS PERTAINING TO THE CONSCIENCE; 
...
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a
heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the
flesh: 
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the
eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, PURGE YOUR
CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?
...

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not
the very image of the things, CAN NEVER with those sacrifices which they
offered year by year continually MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT. 
Heb 10:2  For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because
that the worshipers ONCE PURGED SHOULD HAVE NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS. 
Heb 10:3  But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of
sins every year. 
Heb 10:4  For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats
should take away sins. 
...
Heb 10:8  Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings
and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Sin is serious. The wages of sin is death. I do not see ACCIDENTALLYslipping a mile or two over a man-made speed limit as something whichcauses God to send a person to eternal damnation except he repent andbelieve upon Jesus Christ.

David:
I seem to be having a hard time communicating to you what is sin. The sin is disobedience to those in authority over you, whether you disobey a little or a lot. If that were the only sin you ever committed, it would send you to Hell unless covered by the blood of Christ. One lousy sin in the garden started this mess we are in, though it appeared harmless at the time to the sinner.

It does not matter how much the policeman is concerned. It does not matter if God does not flood the earth because of it. It does not matter if your conscience is clear. I have known homosexuals with a clear conscience. If God says obey the authorities, and they are not demanding something that compromises your relationship with the Lord, you are to obey.

Have I ever slipped up since becoming a believer? Yes, I have, and it was a sin. One that hurt no one but me, but that is enough. I dare not assume that my little sins do not offend a Holy God. He is angry with the sinner every day.

Next time you are doing fifty-five in a fifty-five zone, and a car with a fish decal on the back passes you doing sixty, think about what kind of witness is driving that car. Maybe you will see what I mean.

The law makes no provision for breaking the law by mistake, but I am confident that the Lord would take that into account.

Blessings,
Terry

IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Slade wrote:
 I think if we continue to sin like that, we are not
 born of God. If God put that kind of weight on unintentional 
 sin, Heaven would be empty because we're all ignorant of 
 wrongdoings that we cannot hope to repent of.
   If that's Catholic... oops. Also, if I'm wrong, rebuke 
 me and teach me some more.

Yes, this is basically the Catholic concept concerning sin.  They teach
that everybody sins, but there are two basic classifications of sins:
venial and mortal.  If someone commits a mortal sin, it is a deadly sin
and so they are condemned, but venial sins are covered by grace.  The
basis for the idea seems supported by 1 John 5:16.  I would not say that
it is completely without merit.  However, what bothers me about the idea
is that they teach everyone sins in this way... that it is unavoidable.
Therefore, they have things like the last rites when someone is about
to die.  I have trouble understanding how this corresponds with the idea
in Scripture that we can come boldly before the throne of God on
judgment day.  Furthermore, in my own personal life, I feel free of sin.
Some people think I'm arrogant and self righteous, but I see that this
is the work of Christ in me, taking sin out of my life.  In my view,
self righteousness is when you think you are able to keep the law
perfectly without Christ.  It might also include thinking yourself to be
right when you are very wrong.  But when a person experiences victory
over the power of sin because of faith in Christ, this is not self
righteousness but experiencing the righteousness of Christ.

I readily acknowledge that we humans live in a deprived state, and that
this hinders our ability to be holy.  But that is why Jesus died, and
has given us of his Holy Spirit.  If we are truly led by the Spirit and
we walk in the Spirit, why would we think that the Holy Spirit would
lead us into some sin unknown to us?

I do not believe Jesus ever sinned.  If you have this concept about
slipping over the speed limit by a few mph being a sin, would you
consider Jesus a sinner then?  I would have no trouble believing that if
Jesus lived during a time when cars were driven that he might have done
this at some time.  We already know that he violated some of the laws of
the land in which he lived, especially concerning Sabbath.  Even when he
was informed of violating these ordinances, he willfully violated them
right in front of the authorities.  I don't consider that to be sin on
his part.  Do you?

Slade wrote:
 When the Laws of the land contradict the Bible?
 Acts 5:29 -- But Peter and the apostles answered, 
 We must obey God rather than men.

Ok, but keep in mind that this is not just about contradicting the
Bible.  The context of Acts 5:29 has nothing to do with the apostles
obeying Scripture over what authorities were telling them to do.  It
had to do with their own personal revelation, not witnessed by the
authorities or others, that directed them to do something contrary to
what the authorities instructed them to do.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Terry wrote:
 If that were the only sin you ever committed, 
 it would send you to Hell unless covered by 
 the blood of Christ.  

Wow!  Do you really believe that?

It seems to me that you are being stricter than God on this matter.  I
will have to prayerfully consider what you have said.  Wow.  I still
can't believe you think this way.

Terry wrote:
 It does not matter how much the 
 policeman is concerned.

If the policeman is not concerned, that tells me that he understands the
fallibility of his equipment, and also perhaps understands that the
speed limit is purposely below the actual safe speed for the road.  Of
course, he might also be just interested in bigger violators.  :-)

What we are getting into here is whether God is a legalist or a
moralist.  Does God have rules / laws which he constantly uses like a
check list to determine who has violated the rules?  Is that God?  

I don't see God that way.  I see God as love, without any formal rules
at all.  He created some rules for us to help us understand how we have
fallen short of being motivated by love.  Nevertheless, once we have
received his heart of love within us, we don't need to be concerned
about the legalistic letter of the law.  By the law of love, it might be
raining out and a sin to drive 55 in a 55 zone.  Love has the ability to
adjust according to circumstances much better than the letter of the
law.  I believe God looks upon sin, not as a legalist who quotes which
code section was violated, but as a moralist who is happy with those who
walk in love and angry with those who do not walk in love.

Terry wrote:
 I have known homosexuals with a clear conscience.

I haven't.  I have known some to lie about it, and I have known some
without a conscience (a seared conscience), but none with a clear
conscience.  Would you care to share how you knew them to have a clear
conscience?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

2003-03-25 Thread ttxpress





your idea of 'perfection, below, is your own 
philosophy, has nothin' to do with Scripture; e.g., 
(so) how can this (ff.) be true while you refuse to 
'confess' sin? 

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:16:58 -0500 
"David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:..I feel free of sin. Some people think I'm 

arrogant and self righteous, but I 
see that 
this is the work of Christ in me, 
taking sin 
out of my 
life.

Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently


Yes David, I believe that.  All have sinned, everyone deserves to go to
Hell, whether it is one sin or a thousand.  The only way to avoid that is
Jesus.  If that is too simple to grasp, consider the following.

One lousy sin brought death to all mankind.  God said don't  eat the fruit.
HE meant DON'T EAT THE FRUIT!

Two guys are trying to prevent the ark from falling.  Their intentions seem
good.  God said, Don't touch the ark.  HE meant DON'T TOUCH THE ARK!

Annanias and Sapphira tell a little lie.  No one was hurt by it.  Kinda like
doing 57 in a 55 zone.  Before the day is over they are dead and buried.

Moses was told how to get water from the rock, but Moses had a better idea.
That idea kept him out of the promised land.

Starting to get the picture?  When God says something, He means it.  I think
it would be very dangerous to assume, as you are doing, that He does not,
and that you can decide for yourself which ones He is serious about.

Please think about that.

Terry

-
 Terry wrote:
  If that were the only sin you ever committed,
  it would send you to Hell unless covered by
  the blood of Christ.

 Wow!  Do you really believe that?

 It seems to me that you are being stricter than God on this matter.  I
 will have to prayerfully consider what you have said.  Wow.  I still
 can't believe you think this way.

David:


 Terry wrote:
  It does not matter how much the
  policeman is concerned.

 If the policeman is not concerned, that tells me that he understands the
 fallibility of his equipment, and also perhaps understands that the
 speed limit is purposely below the actual safe speed for the road.  Of
 course, he might also be just interested in bigger violators.  :-)

 What we are getting into here is whether God is a legalist or a
 moralist.  Does God have rules / laws which he constantly uses like a
 check list to determine who has violated the rules?  Is that God?

 I don't see God that way.  I see God as love, without any formal rules
 at all.  He created some rules for us to help us understand how we have
 fallen short of being motivated by love.  Nevertheless, once we have
 received his heart of love within us, we don't need to be concerned
 about the legalistic letter of the law.  By the law of love, it might be
 raining out and a sin to drive 55 in a 55 zone.  Love has the ability to
 adjust according to circumstances much better than the letter of the
 law.  I believe God looks upon sin, not as a legalist who quotes which
 code section was violated, but as a moralist who is happy with those who
 walk in love and angry with those who do not walk in love.

 Terry wrote:
  I have known homosexuals with a clear conscience.

 I haven't.  I have known some to lie about it, and I have known some
 without a conscience (a seared conscience), but none with a clear
 conscience.  Would you care to share how you knew them to have a clear
 conscience?

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

David:
At one time, I was a correctional program supervisor with the California
department of corrections.  That is a fancy title for a combination
prison guard / caseworker.  I supervised a housing unit with a population of
three hundred prisoners, and in addition had a sixteen man caseload.  My
clerk was a homosexual, as were some in my caseload and many in the general
population.

Over eleven years I came to know them quite well.  I cannot give you
laboratory proof that they had a clear conscience, and indeed, all did not,
but in my opinion, based on what I saw and heard over a long period, that
was my conclusion.  Accept it for what it is worth.  Possibly you have not
had the same numbers or time frame to make a valid assesment.
Terry
 Terry wrote:
  I have known homosexuals with a clear conscience.

 I haven't.  I have known some to lie about it, and I have known some
 without a conscience (a seared conscience), but none with a clear
 conscience.  Would you care to share how you knew them to have a clear
 conscience?

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently

Terry wrote:
 Yes David, I believe that. All have sinned, 
 everyone deserves to go to Hell, whether it 
 is one sin or a thousand.

I understand that all have sinned and deserve Hell, but what you said
before concerning inadvertently slipping over the speed limit a few mph
was, If that were the only sin you ever committed, it would send you to
Hell...  That's a tough line to tote.  What kind of God would think
this way?

Terry wrote:
 Annanias and Sapphira tell a little lie.  No one 
 was hurt by it.  Kinda like doing 57 in a 55 zone.  
 Before the day is over they are dead and buried.

Woe!  Hold on there good buddy.  Lying to the Holy Ghost is kind of like
doing 57 in a 55 zone?  I don't think so.  Ananias and Sapphira are
burning in hell, as they should be for lying to the Holy Ghost.  But how
is it you consider this kind of like doing 57 in a 55 zone?  I'm way out
in left field from you on this one.  Give me some time to pray about
this and think about this.  My head is spinning.  I can't fathom this
kind of thinking.  No offense to you.  The problem must be with me.  I'm
just kind of speechless and trying to figure out what must be wrong with
me.

Terry wrote:
 Starting to get the picture?  When God says 
 something, He means it. 

I have no problem understanding that when God says something, he means
it.  No question that we must obey Him.  The question doesn't concern
what God says, but how violating inadvertently what man says equates to
sin.  Jesus can heal on the Sabbath, contrary to the laws of men, and
his apostles can pluck ears of corn, contrary to the laws of men, and
his apostles can eat without washing first, contrary to the laws of men,
but if we slip over the speed limit a few mph, and that is the only
thing we have ever done wrong, we will go to hell?  That's what I'm
having trouble understanding.  Bear with me.  I'm still assimilating.
:-)  All I can say right now is Wow.  You have impressed me.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Everyone Has Sinned Inadvertently