Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Things like this happen all the time on this listserv; and not always by the bad traffic people. It is usually in an effort to prove the bad traffic people are liars or don't know what they're talking about and should shut up and defer. On 7/30/07 12:23 AM, Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then why did you bait the list members by asking what kind of influence Penn/Villanova had over the two listservs by feigning ignorance? Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible. On Jul 29, 2007, at 08:17 PM, Anthony West wrote: When universities actually seek to control internet information, you will find their internet trail all too easy to trace. I speak as one who once worked in university PR. Universities are all about labeling, publishing, controlling and crediting. If there were any substantial drive by Penn to control a listserve, you would soon read it in its contents. But you won't figure it out by the addie. Universities are capable of many bad deeds, but they are almost constitutionally incapable of being sneaky in the true sense of the word. They are too beholden to their internal networks of information release and approval. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn¹t Kyle? Having a ³community listserv¹ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn¹t it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu . root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu . 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com http://www.aol.com?ncid=AOLAOF0002000437 .
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Frankus, Because some list members had just been making a big deal about the supposed influence Penn might wield over Kyle's new list -- as opposed, presumably, to this old list -- based on its web address. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: let's examine this old list's web address and examine what sort of control is involved in that. Knowing nothing about the subject myself, I asked a series of questions of more knowledgeable list members. It doesn't seem like there is that much to fuss about, with regards to alleged control of either list by either institution. -- Tony West Frank wrote: Then why did you bait the list members by asking what kind of influence Penn/Villanova had over the two listservs by feigning ignorance? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Wilma, The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me. However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special preferences page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements. As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions: 1) Penn is sponsoring the new group. Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls. 2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere. I don't think groups as a whole are credible. What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either. --dave -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn’t Kyle? Having a “community listserv’ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn’t it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP
RE: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Dave, they've got a perfectly good wild-eyed streetcorner preacher conspiracy theory going. Why burst their bubble with your clever facts and logics? THE END IS NIGH! WOE TO YOU O EARTH AND DOG BOWL, FOR THE DEVIL SENDS THE PENN BEAST WITH WRATH! - Mike V. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Axler Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; univcity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list Wilma, The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me. However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special preferences page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements. As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions: 1) Penn is sponsoring the new group. Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls. 2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere. I don't think groups as a whole are credible. What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either. --dave -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn't Kyle? Having a community listserv' with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn't it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Wilma, I don't know. Is Villanova responsible for our content, right now, on UC-list? Your second point does make some sense to me. But how to control it? Large universities are mare's nests of email accounts and websites. You can find some pretty bizarre pages on some of them. Maybe Kyle's listserve should include some sort of standard disclaimer of university affiliation for walk-ins. Or maybe While we're on it, how did UC-list come to be called purple instead of villanova? -- Tony West I don't think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn't it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn't know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Wilma
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I don¹t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn¹t it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn¹t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Would one be wrong to assume that if one didn¹t know the whole story? To specifically answer your question, ³Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? ³ My answer would be no. I have advance information as to the nature of the group, how it was formed etc., but many others would not and that makes a difference. Wilma On 7/30/07 10:12 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wilma, The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me. However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special preferences page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements. As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions: 1) Penn is sponsoring the new group. Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls. 2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere. I don't think groups as a whole are credible. What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either. --dave -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn¹t Kyle? Having a ³community listserv¹ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn¹t it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Dave, I have neither posted any conspiracy theory but posed a simple question: If people moving to the area were looking for a neighborhood forum and they saw one with upenn.edu as part of its address, wouldn¹t they assume this group could be associated with the university? It seems that Mike feels the average person is not gullible enough to think that would give a listserv a certain amount of greater credibility just because upenn.edu is in the address. As for the ³wild-eyed street corner preacher remark² as you were responding to Dave¹s reply to me, was not in the high standard of taste and propriety those who formed the new list obviously adhere to and was uncalled for. Don¹t let me dazzle you any facts that seeing upenn.edu in any correspondence would call to mind of the person reading it, the University of Pennsylvania. I would request that you show me any number of places using the domain, upenn.edu NOT affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania that people could ostensibly take to be another entity. On 7/30/07 11:54 AM, Mike V. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave, they've got a perfectly good wild-eyed streetcorner preacher conspiracy theory going. Why burst their bubble with your clever facts and logics? THE END IS NIGH! WOE TO YOU O EARTH AND DOG BOWL, FOR THE DEVIL SENDS THE PENN BEAST WITH WRATH! - Mike V. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Axler Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 10:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; univcity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list Wilma, The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me. However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special preferences page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements. As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions: 1) Penn is sponsoring the new group. Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls. 2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere. I don't think groups as a whole are credible. What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either. --dave -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn¹t Kyle? Having a ³community listserv¹ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn¹t it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
You go, Wilma!! Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:18 PM, Wilma de Soto wrote: I don’t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn’t it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn’t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Would one be wrong to assume that if one didn’t know the whole story? To specifically answer your question, “Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? “ My answer would be no. I have advance information as to the nature of the group, how it was formed etc., but many others would not and that makes a difference. Wilma On 7/30/07 10:12 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wilma, The answer to your first question can only come from Kyle, not me. However, I have used discussion groups based at both Yahoo and MySpace, and can state from experience that they do have disadvantages: Most notably, there are too many advertisements, both on the listserv/group pages themselves, and in email one receives as a side effect of joining the group. Yahoo is especially notorious for the latter -- one has to locate the special preferences page and manually opt out of receiving such mail. I suspect, but don't know for certain, that Google-based groups also involve advertisements. As for the second question, I think it is based on two false assumptions: 1) Penn is sponsoring the new group. Providing host services is not sponsorship, regardless of whether the group is hosted on Penn's servers, or Yahoo's, or Google's, or an old Mac 8100 sitting in somebody's basement. To claim otherwise is analogous to holding the phone company responsible for what people say when they make calls. 2) A group hosted by Penn is more credible than one hosted elsewhere. I don't think groups as a whole are credible. What matters to me is the credibility of individual posters based on what they say and how well those statements agree with my own knowledge and understanding of the world. Would your words, or mine, or anyone else's really become more credible because they were posted on a discussion group that happened to be on a UPenn server? I don't think anyone here -- including those with whom I sometimes disagree -- is that foolish and/or gullible, and I don't think new neighbors would be, either. --dave -Original Message- From: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 7:21 am Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list True enough. If I could set up a listserv on any of the servers mentioned (Google, MySpace, Yahoo) by you and Andy, why didn’t Kyle? Having a “community listserv’ with a upenn sponsored URL would lend more weight and credibility than one set up at purple.com or yahoo or myspace, wouldn’t it? I were a new resident to University City and wanted to go online with neighbors, I certainly would think so. On 7/30/07 1:36 AM, Dave Axler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
It's called purple because it's a separate domain, Villanova is only hosting it. But you already know that, don't you? My domain is hosted cruisingforsex.com servers which, in turn, sit in a server farm owned by yet another domain. Neither of them is responsible for my content but, if I were doing something interesting to law enforcement, you can bet they'd both be contacted and my domain could easily be removed. Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Anthony West wrote: Wilma, I don't know. Is Villanova responsible for our content, right now, on UC-list? Your second point does make some sense to me. But how to control it? Large universities are mare's nests of email accounts and websites. You can find some pretty bizarre pages on some of them. Maybe Kyle's listserve should include some sort of standard disclaimer of university affiliation for walk-ins. Or maybe While we're on it, how did UC-list come to be called purple instead of villanova? -- Tony West I don’t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn’t it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn’t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Wilma
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
On 7/30/07, Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called purple because it's a separate domain, Villanova is only hosting it. But you already know that, don't you? My domain is hosted cruisingforsex.com servers which, in turn, sit in a server farm owned by yet another domain. Neither of them is responsible for my content but, if I were doing something interesting to law enforcement, you can bet they'd both be contacted and my domain could easily be removed. Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible Holy crap, Frankus. You are the people my parents warned me against. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
No, I don't. Why should I know that? So continue your explanation and my education, please -- A domain is just an internet address which a specific person registered and, usually, purchased. Am I right, or is it more than that; is there standardized software, for instance, that a domain is built out of? Is a university address such as upenn.edu a domain as well? So you bought, in some fashion, cruisingforsex.com as Jeff Abrahamson must have bought, in some fashion, list.purple.com. What agent do you have to buy them from? Servers are hardware, right? So they must have a physical location. In the world of domains whose owners don't also own servers, are there any standard business protocols for how to hook one up to another? -- Tony West Frank wrote: It's called purple because it's a separate domain, Villanova is only hosting it. But you already know that, don't you? My domain is hosted cruisingforsex.com servers which, in turn, sit in a server farm owned by yet another domain. Neither of them is responsible for my content but, if I were doing something interesting to law enforcement, you can bet they'd both be contacted and my domain could easily be removed. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I don¹t KNOW if Villanova has the ultimate responsibility for monitoring on the content on the UC Listserv right now. If any neighbors new or long-standing would join the UC Listserv would NEVER know that somewhere down the Villanova was the owner of the domain unless it is posted. It hasn¹t been since 1994. However, anyone joining the new UC Neighbors Listserv would immediately know the listserv has an URL that on Penn¹s domain owns.. Many assumptions could be inferred from that simple fact. On 7/30/07 12:39 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wilma, I don't know. Is Villanova responsible for our content, right now, on UC-list? Your second point does make some sense to me. But how to control it? Large universities are mare's nests of email accounts and websites. You can find some pretty bizarre pages on some of them. Maybe Kyle's listserve should include some sort of standard disclaimer of university affiliation for walk-ins. Or maybe While we're on it, how did UC-list come to be called purple instead of villanova? -- Tony West Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list I don¹t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn¹t it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn¹t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Wilma
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
For all I know Villanova, Penn, La Salle, Harvard own and are hosting many domains which do not carry their names. On 7/30/07 2:24 PM, Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called purple because it's a separate domain, Villanova is only hosting it. But you already know that, don't you? My domain is hosted cruisingforsex.com servers which, in turn, sit in a server farm owned by yet another domain. Neither of them is responsible for my content but, if I were doing something interesting to law enforcement, you can bet they'd both be contacted and my domain could easily be removed. Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Anthony West wrote: Wilma, I don't know. Is Villanova responsible for our content, right now, on UC-list? Your second point does make some sense to me. But how to control it? Large universities are mare's nests of email accounts and websites. You can find some pretty bizarre pages on some of them. Maybe Kyle's listserve should include some sort of standard disclaimer of university affiliation for walk-ins. Or maybe While we're on it, how did UC-list come to be called purple instead of villanova? -- Tony West I don¹t think Penn is sponsoring the group. What I meant is they are the owner of the domain in which gives them a certain responsibility for its content, doesn¹t it. As for your second point about group credibility, it is rather the appearance of credibility. That is to say, if I was looking for a listserv forum i this area and I ran across the UC Neighbors and saw upenn.edu in its address, I would probably think if I didn¹t know better that this Neighbors listserv is affiliated with the university because it is under their domain. If I see a forum under cbsnews.com, or citibank.com or harvard.edu, I would most likely assume these would under their domains and subject to all regulations therein. Wilma
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Fraid so, Ross. Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible On Jul 30, 2007, at 02:49 PM, Ross Bender wrote: On 7/30/07, Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's called purple because it's a separate domain, Villanova is only hosting it. But you already know that, don't you? My domain is hosted cruisingforsex.com servers which, in turn, sit in a server farm owned by yet another domain. Neither of them is responsible for my content but, if I were doing something interesting to law enforcement, you can bet they'd both be contacted and my domain could easily be removed. Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible Holy crap, Frankus. You are the people my parents warned me against. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu. root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I only actually met the dude once. He seemed more like a Jesuit than a Franciscan to me. And before you donate a whole lot of money to him, ask yourself what he's gonna use all the dough for. On 7/29/07, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A fellow journalist reports: From a mechanical point of view, UC-list is under the thumb of the Franciscan Order, as it is hosted by Villanova Univ. But tell us more of Jeff Abrahamson. Was he a patient Franciscan monk who came to plant independent internet access in the shadow of Penn? -- Tony You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu. root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
None. Having worked at upenn (for the central computing authority) for a few years, I know there are too many machines out there for the people like that to care. This could be anything from a large unix host that is part of the villanova core campus computing infrastructure, to a forgotten pc in a closet in the basement of the philosophy building or a pc in a dorm or a friend. It's just hooked up somewhere at Villanova. The fact that they host the DNS records means that Jeff knows someone there in the admin office that put those records in and keep them in. It would cost them nothing to maintain the DNS records. However, I do notice that the purple list is a lot slower in Lent, and that postings with the word 'meat' in them are bounced sometimes on Fridays. -andy Anthony West wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu. root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu. root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I appreciate your information. So the fact somebody's website is hosted somewhere at Penn or Villanova, probably doesn't say anything at all about Penn's or Villanova's supposed influence over it. In off-campus neighborhoods, IT geeks hook up their neighbors with cheap service via access to universities wherever they know IT pals. Welcome to University City, all you West Philadelphians! When universities actually seek to control internet information, you will find their internet trail all too easy to trace. I speak as one who once worked in university PR. Universities are all about labeling, publishing, controlling and crediting. If there were any substantial drive by Penn to control a listserve, you would soon read it in its contents. But you won't figure it out by the addie. Universities are capable of many bad deeds, but they are almost constitutionally incapable of being sneaky in the true sense of the word. They are too beholden to their internal networks of information release and approval. -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: None. Having worked at upenn (for the central computing authority) for a few years, I know there are too many machines out there for the people like that to care. This could be anything from a large unix host that is part of the villanova core campus computing infrastructure, to a forgotten pc in a closet in the basement of the philosophy building or a pc in a dorm or a friend. It's just hooked up somewhere at Villanova. The fact that they host the DNS records means that Jeff knows someone there in the admin office that put those records in and keep them in. It would cost them nothing to maintain the DNS records. However, I do notice that the purple list is a lot slower in Lent, and that postings with the word 'meat' in them are bounced sometimes on Fridays. -andy Anthony West wrote: Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
I am aware of this. I have organized a listserv for my colleagues in the School District of Philadelphia. My question was with regard to how one gets Penn to host one's server and lend one an IP address. Thanks. On 7/29/07 8:08 PM, Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu. root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Personally, I have a domain name which I rent from some characters in Bulgaria, and I strongly suspect their server to be under the control of some segment of the Eastern Orthodox Church. In fact, I have the capacity, as part of my rental agreement, to host up to 25 email lists at the drop of a thurible. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think this might be the perfect solution to the UC Listserv Woes. Then we as an online community would be neither subservient to nor under the sinister control of either Fransciscans, Jesuits, Villanova or Penn. The downside of course is that the domain would bear my name, viz. rossbender.org. But I would moderate with perhaps not so heavy a hand as friend Cassidy. Just a suggestion, of course, but say the word and I'd be able to set up a list in a jiffy. We could call it The Wacko List @rossbender.org. On 7/29/07, Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am aware of this. I have organized a listserv for my colleagues in the School District of Philadelphia. My question was with regard to how one gets Penn to host one's server and lend one an IP address. Thanks. On 7/29/07 8:08 PM, Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu . root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
The Augustinians run Villanova U. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸º On Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 07:13 PM, Anthony West wrote: A fellow journalist reports: From a mechanical point of view, UC-list is under the thumb of the Franciscan Order, as it is hosted by Villanova Univ. But tell us more of Jeff Abrahamson. Was he a patient Franciscan monk who came to plant independent internet access in the shadow of Penn? -- Tony You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
True that. I googled them and so they do: In comparison, when a group of Irish Augustinians founded Villanova in 1842, they instilled in it Augustine's unity of mind and heart with priority to the heart. They built a learning community based on friendship. One hundred sixty years later, the formula endures. Villanova, so often described as a community of scholars, is also a community of lay and religious, of students, faculty and staff. It educates its students to use the knowledge and skills they gain for the benefit of the world community, whether it is in downtown Philadelphia, in the mountains of Latin America, in the towns of Northern Ireland, or in Bryn Mawr, Pa. They are expected to take the ethics they have learned and apply them in financial centers, courts of law, engineering firms, technology centers, classrooms, healthcare, and educational institutions. http://heritage.villanova.edu/vu/heritage/allthings/2002SU.htm Odd thing is though, I've always thought of Villanova as one of those party schools where drunken frat boys run wild. How can they square their public image with the stern, Austere philosophy of St Augustine? On 7/29/07, Cindy Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Augustinians run Villanova U. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸º On Sunday, July 29, 2007, at 07:13 PM, Anthony West wrote: A fellow journalist reports: From a mechanical point of view, UC-list is under the thumb of the Franciscan Order, as it is hosted by Villanova Univ. But tell us more of Jeff Abrahamson. Was he a patient Franciscan monk who came to plant independent internet access in the shadow of Penn? -- Tony You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Oops, Cindy. I think I knew that, I just didn't write that! Villanova is actually rare in being Augustinian-run, as I recall. It is not an order that invested heavily in higher education, compared to other religious, in Catholic parlance. Can any UC-list subscriber explain the Augustinian philosophy or mission, as opposed to that of other Catholic groups? I'd be fascinated to hear what it is, and it might give us a clue as to how to conduct ourselves in a more Augustinian manner while we are posting on the internet. Which might not be such a bad thing. -- Tony West Cindy Miller wrote: The Augustinians run Villanova U. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸º You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
On 7/29/07, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops, Cindy. I think I knew that, I just didn't write that! Villanova is actually rare in being Augustinian-run, as I recall. It is not an order that invested heavily in higher education, compared to other religious, in Catholic parlance. Can any UC-list subscriber explain the Augustinian philosophy or mission, as opposed to that of other Catholic groups? I'd be fascinated to hear what it is, and it might give us a clue as to how to conduct ourselves in a more Augustinian manner while we are posting on the internet. Which might not be such a bad thing. -- Tony West You could start by reading through the website at the link I just posted: http://heritage.villanova.edu/vu/heritage/allthings/2002SU.htm Actually, maybe I was wrong to diss Nova for having a drunken frat boy image. But that business about applying their skills in the towns of Northern Ireland gives me pause. Surely and hopefully this is not some sort of code language for an IRA connection? Cindy Miller wrote: The Augustinians run Villanova U. -cm `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸º You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. -- Ross Bender http://rossbender.org
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Thanks, Ross. :) I shall keep that in mind. I don¹t expect an answer to the question I asked based on Diller¹s information, and will be pleasantly surprised if I do get one. On 7/29/07 9:15 PM, Ross Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally, I have a domain name which I rent from some characters in Bulgaria, and I strongly suspect their server to be under the control of some segment of the Eastern Orthodox Church. In fact, I have the capacity, as part of my rental agreement, to host up to 25 email lists at the drop of a thurible. In fact, the more I think about it the more I think this might be the perfect solution to the UC Listserv Woes. Then we as an online community would be neither subservient to nor under the sinister control of either Fransciscans, Jesuits, Villanova or Penn. The downside of course is that the domain would bear my name, viz. rossbender.org http://rossbender.org . But I would moderate with perhaps not so heavy a hand as friend Cassidy. Just a suggestion, of course, but say the word and I'd be able to set up a list in a jiffy. We could call it The Wacko List @ rossbender.org http://rossbender.org . On 7/29/07, Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am aware of this. I have organized a listserv for my colleagues in the School District of Philadelphia. My question was with regard to how one gets Penn to host one's server and lend one an IP address. Thanks. On 7/29/07 8:08 PM, Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups. http://groups.google.com/ http://groups.google.com/ -andy diller Wilma de Soto wrote: I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server and lend him an IP address? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for you? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening. Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over UC-list as we know it? -- Tony West Andrew Diller wrote: If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova! For some context, there are two things you need to know about any computer on the Internet: 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?) Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet. When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com http://list.purple.com ) to that particular ip address, and then people can use your server. People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 http://153.104.63.228 all the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system). Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy for people to use. So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com http://list.purple.com (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is 153.104.63.228 http://153.104.63.228 . Both those point to the same thing. So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional affiliation for purple. Here is the record for it's DNS: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;purple.com.IN A ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: purple.com http://purple.com . 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu http://ftp.ece.villanova.edu . root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu http://root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu . 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200 ;; Query time: 10 msec ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2 http://207.245.82.2 ) ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007 And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com http://list.purple.com computer: The IP 153.104.63.228 http://153.104.63.228 is located in: Country:United States (US) Region:PA City:Villanova Latitude:40.0369 Longitude:-75.3486 ( http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php ) So, there you are. -andy diller You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Then why did you bait the list members by asking what kind of influence Penn/Villanova had over the two listservs by feigning ignorance? Frankus Sleek. Edgy. Infinitely flexible. On Jul 29, 2007, at 08:17 PM, Anthony West wrote: When universities actually seek to control internet information, you will find their internet trail all too easy to trace. I speak as one who once worked in university PR. Universities are all about labeling, publishing, controlling and crediting. If there were any substantial drive by Penn to control a listserve, you would soon read it in its contents. But you won't figure it out by the addie. Universities are capable of many bad deeds, but they are almost constitutionally incapable of being sneaky in the true sense of the word. They are too beholden to their internal networks of information release and approval. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list
Yep, and you can get similar free services from Yahoo, AOL, MySpace, and a variety of other places. The exact features vary from host to host -- some let you make files and/or pictures available, some offer public calendar features for group events, all have some variations on how the messages are moderated (if at all) -- but the location of an ISP is, for a discussion list, generally not a sign of who owns and/or controls it. -Original Message- From: Andrew Diller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Wilma de Soto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED]; UnivCity listserv univcity@list.purple.com Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Re: [UC] True nature of UC-list You can pretty much do it yourself, for free at Google. Google calls listservs groups.? ? http://groups.google.com/? ? ? -andy diller? ? Wilma de Soto wrote:? I see. How much is Kyle having to pay Penn to get them to host his server? and lend him an IP address?? Would I be able to do the same if I pay them to host a server for me and? loan me an IP address? Who gets to do this? Must one be directly? affiliated with the University or have someone who IS affiliated do it for? you?? On 7/29/07 7:32 PM, Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:? Thanks, Andy. Nice to read hard facts on UC-list this evening.? ? Based on your experience, what sort of control do you think the Pope, or? the Franciscan Order, or Villanova Univ. exercises over the content of? this unmoderated UC-list, based on the mere fact of its mechanical? address? Suppose the list became moderated instead -- how would that? change the influence that Main Line Roman Catholicism now wields over? UC-list as we know it?? ? -- Tony West? ? Andrew Diller wrote:? If I may Actually, there is institutional affiliation: Villanova!? ? For some context, there are two things you need to know about any? computer on the Internet:? ? 1. who hold the DNS records for that domain? 2. where is the IP address of the server located? (what ISP?)? ? Only large institutions (penn, apple, comcast) 'own' the blocks of IP? addresses that each computer must have to participate on the Internet.? When you pay one of these people to host your server, they lend you an? IP address. You then map a name (list.purple.com) to that particular? ip address, and then people can use your server.? ? People don't find it easy to type in numbers like 153.104.63.228 all? the time, so other smart people invented DNS (the Domain Name system).? Almost every IP address has a DNS name mapped to it to make it easy? for people to use.? ? So using DNS, we can address things like email to list.purple.com? (which is a particular computer) instead of it's IP address, which is? 153.104.63.228. Both those point to the same thing.? ? So, to answer #1, it looks like Villanova holds the DNS records for? purple. So it is safe to say that there _is_ an institutional? affiliation for purple.? ? Here is the record for it's DNS:? ? ;; QUESTION SECTION:? ;purple.com.IN A? ? ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:? purple.com. 6716IN SOA ftp.ece.villanova.edu.? root.ftp.ece.villanova.edu. 2006061100 43200 14400 360 259200? ? ;; Query time: 10 msec? ;; SERVER: 207.245.82.2#53(207.245.82.2)? ;; WHEN: Sun Jul 29 19:08:36 2007? ? And here is a GEO lookup for the actual list.purple.com computer:? ? The IP 153.104.63.228 is located in:? Country:United States (US)? Region:PA? City:Villanova? Latitude:40.0369? Longitude:-75.3486? ? (http://www.websitegoodies.com/tools/geoip.php)? ? So, there you are.? ? -andy diller? ? ? ? ? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
