Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dacia Cole]

Yes, I hope the moderators stop it soon!!

On 8/26/16, pegkan...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> I agree with you wholeheartedly, I do not understand why this topic
> continues I think it has been blown out of the water and the moderators need
> to stop it soon it's getting a little bit ridiculous everyone is allowed to
> have their own opinions.
>
> Peggy Sent from my IPhone.
>
>
>> On Aug 26, 2016, at 10:00 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>>
>> The only other thing I have to say is that I know first hand that the
>> NFB is very pro guide dog.  Numerous members have them and there is a
>> very active national division for guide dog users and a number of
>> states have divisions as well.  Does the NFB endorce one school over
>> another, no, but they are NOT ANTI GUIDEDOG!   If you
>> think they are, do your research.  Ask questions, visit the NAGDU
>> website and such.  You can't make an informed opinion without
>> reasearching first.  I myself don't have a guidedog, the long white
>> can is cheaper for me, lol.  However, I know several members of the
>> Federation who do.  Does the NFB always get it right?  No, but neither
>> does any organization.  So stop being petty and dragging everything
>> through the mud and act like the adults I know we all are.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Dacia
>>
>>> On 8/26/16, rajmund  wrote:
>>> Hello. I have to agree about the email bug. I mean, they've had a year
>>> to fix it, now.
 On 26/08/16 03:16, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
 Well, I think we're talking about more than just a few inconveniences.
 I was one of those who was hit with that bug where VoiceOver would
 hang almost every time I got a call and I had to hard reset my phone.
 Sure people who weren't hit by this bug can say it's no big deal, but
 IMHO, that's only true if you don't use your iPhone to make phone
 calls. I still have that bug where VoiceOver freezes up when I reply
 to an email message. Sure, I can squash the home button six times to
 work around this, but when I was on vacation last week, and the only
 way I could check on my email back at the office was with my iPhone, I
 sure regretted not just biting the bullet and schlepping my laptop
 around with me on vacation just so I could reply to my work emails.
 Fortunately, I don't have the voice dictation issue some are talking
 about, but I can empathize with anyone who isn't able to use such a
 key feature of their high end smart phone.

 I agree nothing is perfect, but inconveniences using your smart phone
 is one thing and bugs that keep you from using key features is a horse
 of another color. I also don't think any company should get a pass
 just because they have a lot of products or a lot to do. Apple chose
 to be in the markets their in and put out the products they do. They
 also sell high end devices. Apple is also a very wealthy company. If
 they need to put more resources into improving quality then they could
 thin out their product line a bit. I'm not saying they have to do
 that, but I'm also not feeling sorry for Apple because they have so
 many products making them so much money.

> On 25/08/16 09:08, Devin Prater wrote:
> I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet,
> but
> that's more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have
> nothing against the people at Apple, I just would rather have more
> control and freedom on my devices, and know that there are plenty
> people
> where that doesn't matter, but I'm just slightly more techie than
> Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I don't find Apple's little
> bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones when dictating, and
> no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with too much
> on
> their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I
> don't expect any system to be perfect.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
> >
> wrote:
>
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for
>> not
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
>> voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
>> company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I
>> wonder
>> if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the
>> blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the
>> credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these
>> topics.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > > wrote:
>>
>>> Here is a link to all 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[pegkane52]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, I do not understand why this topic continues I 
think it has been blown out of the water and the moderators need to stop it 
soon it's getting a little bit ridiculous everyone is allowed to have their own 
opinions.

Peggy Sent from my IPhone.


> On Aug 26, 2016, at 10:00 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> The only other thing I have to say is that I know first hand that the
> NFB is very pro guide dog.  Numerous members have them and there is a
> very active national division for guide dog users and a number of
> states have divisions as well.  Does the NFB endorce one school over
> another, no, but they are NOT ANTI GUIDEDOG!   If you
> think they are, do your research.  Ask questions, visit the NAGDU
> website and such.  You can't make an informed opinion without
> reasearching first.  I myself don't have a guidedog, the long white
> can is cheaper for me, lol.  However, I know several members of the
> Federation who do.  Does the NFB always get it right?  No, but neither
> does any organization.  So stop being petty and dragging everything
> through the mud and act like the adults I know we all are.
> 
> thanks,
> Dacia
> 
>> On 8/26/16, rajmund  wrote:
>> Hello. I have to agree about the email bug. I mean, they've had a year
>> to fix it, now.
>>> On 26/08/16 03:16, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>>> Well, I think we're talking about more than just a few inconveniences.
>>> I was one of those who was hit with that bug where VoiceOver would
>>> hang almost every time I got a call and I had to hard reset my phone.
>>> Sure people who weren't hit by this bug can say it's no big deal, but
>>> IMHO, that's only true if you don't use your iPhone to make phone
>>> calls. I still have that bug where VoiceOver freezes up when I reply
>>> to an email message. Sure, I can squash the home button six times to
>>> work around this, but when I was on vacation last week, and the only
>>> way I could check on my email back at the office was with my iPhone, I
>>> sure regretted not just biting the bullet and schlepping my laptop
>>> around with me on vacation just so I could reply to my work emails.
>>> Fortunately, I don't have the voice dictation issue some are talking
>>> about, but I can empathize with anyone who isn't able to use such a
>>> key feature of their high end smart phone.
>>> 
>>> I agree nothing is perfect, but inconveniences using your smart phone
>>> is one thing and bugs that keep you from using key features is a horse
>>> of another color. I also don't think any company should get a pass
>>> just because they have a lot of products or a lot to do. Apple chose
>>> to be in the markets their in and put out the products they do. They
>>> also sell high end devices. Apple is also a very wealthy company. If
>>> they need to put more resources into improving quality then they could
>>> thin out their product line a bit. I'm not saying they have to do
>>> that, but I'm also not feeling sorry for Apple because they have so
>>> many products making them so much money.
>>> 
 On 25/08/16 09:08, Devin Prater wrote:
 I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet, but
 that's more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have
 nothing against the people at Apple, I just would rather have more
 control and freedom on my devices, and know that there are plenty people
 where that doesn't matter, but I'm just slightly more techie than
 Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I don't find Apple's little
 bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones when dictating, and
 no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with too much on
 their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I
 don't expect any system to be perfect.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
 >
 wrote:
 
> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
> voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
> company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder
> if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the
> blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the
> credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these
> topics.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  > wrote:
> 
>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>> what apple is 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dacia Cole]

The only other thing I have to say is that I know first hand that the
NFB is very pro guide dog.  Numerous members have them and there is a
very active national division for guide dog users and a number of
states have divisions as well.  Does the NFB endorce one school over
another, no, but they are NOT ANTI GUIDEDOG!   If you
think they are, do your research.  Ask questions, visit the NAGDU
website and such.  You can't make an informed opinion without
reasearching first.  I myself don't have a guidedog, the long white
can is cheaper for me, lol.  However, I know several members of the
Federation who do.  Does the NFB always get it right?  No, but neither
does any organization.  So stop being petty and dragging everything
through the mud and act like the adults I know we all are.

thanks,
 Dacia

On 8/26/16, rajmund  wrote:
> Hello. I have to agree about the email bug. I mean, they've had a year
> to fix it, now.
> On 26/08/16 03:16, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
>> Well, I think we're talking about more than just a few inconveniences.
>> I was one of those who was hit with that bug where VoiceOver would
>> hang almost every time I got a call and I had to hard reset my phone.
>> Sure people who weren't hit by this bug can say it's no big deal, but
>> IMHO, that's only true if you don't use your iPhone to make phone
>> calls. I still have that bug where VoiceOver freezes up when I reply
>> to an email message. Sure, I can squash the home button six times to
>> work around this, but when I was on vacation last week, and the only
>> way I could check on my email back at the office was with my iPhone, I
>> sure regretted not just biting the bullet and schlepping my laptop
>> around with me on vacation just so I could reply to my work emails.
>> Fortunately, I don't have the voice dictation issue some are talking
>> about, but I can empathize with anyone who isn't able to use such a
>> key feature of their high end smart phone.
>>
>> I agree nothing is perfect, but inconveniences using your smart phone
>> is one thing and bugs that keep you from using key features is a horse
>> of another color. I also don't think any company should get a pass
>> just because they have a lot of products or a lot to do. Apple chose
>> to be in the markets their in and put out the products they do. They
>> also sell high end devices. Apple is also a very wealthy company. If
>> they need to put more resources into improving quality then they could
>> thin out their product line a bit. I'm not saying they have to do
>> that, but I'm also not feeling sorry for Apple because they have so
>> many products making them so much money.
>>
>> On 25/08/16 09:08, Devin Prater wrote:
>>> I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet, but
>>> that's more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have
>>> nothing against the people at Apple, I just would rather have more
>>> control and freedom on my devices, and know that there are plenty people
>>> where that doesn't matter, but I'm just slightly more techie than
>>> Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I don't find Apple's little
>>> bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones when dictating, and
>>> no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with too much on
>>> their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I
>>> don't expect any system to be perfect.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
 testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
 voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
 company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder
 if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the
 blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the
 credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these
 topics.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > wrote:

> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>
> thanks,
>
> Dacia
>
> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  > wrote:
>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than
>> I have
>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and
>> this is
>> more the view of the individual making 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[rajmund]

Hello. I have to agree about the email bug. I mean, they've had a year 
to fix it, now.

On 26/08/16 03:16, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
Well, I think we're talking about more than just a few inconveniences. 
I was one of those who was hit with that bug where VoiceOver would 
hang almost every time I got a call and I had to hard reset my phone. 
Sure people who weren't hit by this bug can say it's no big deal, but 
IMHO, that's only true if you don't use your iPhone to make phone 
calls. I still have that bug where VoiceOver freezes up when I reply 
to an email message. Sure, I can squash the home button six times to 
work around this, but when I was on vacation last week, and the only 
way I could check on my email back at the office was with my iPhone, I 
sure regretted not just biting the bullet and schlepping my laptop 
around with me on vacation just so I could reply to my work emails. 
Fortunately, I don't have the voice dictation issue some are talking 
about, but I can empathize with anyone who isn't able to use such a 
key feature of their high end smart phone.


I agree nothing is perfect, but inconveniences using your smart phone 
is one thing and bugs that keep you from using key features is a horse 
of another color. I also don't think any company should get a pass 
just because they have a lot of products or a lot to do. Apple chose 
to be in the markets their in and put out the products they do. They 
also sell high end devices. Apple is also a very wealthy company. If 
they need to put more resources into improving quality then they could 
thin out their product line a bit. I'm not saying they have to do 
that, but I'm also not feeling sorry for Apple because they have so 
many products making them so much money.


On 25/08/16 09:08, Devin Prater wrote:

I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet, but
that's more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have
nothing against the people at Apple, I just would rather have more
control and freedom on my devices, and know that there are plenty people
where that doesn't matter, but I'm just slightly more techie than
Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I don't find Apple's little
bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones when dictating, and
no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with too much on
their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I
don't expect any system to be perfect.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
> 
wrote:



I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder
if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the
blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the
credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these
topics.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > wrote:


Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain > wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than 
I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and 
this is

more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, 
all of

the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone 
heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was 
passed so

I can make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite

far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant
surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse
who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for
NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” 
where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

['simon w' via VIPhone]

for those that want to discuss this continue this off list please.

-Original Message- 
From: Eric Oyen

Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 11:07 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

and yet, the NFB passed a resolution specifically targeting Apple when apple 
was clearly the best in the field accessibility wise. I have far less issues 
with their OS (on the laptop or the iPhone) than I do with the windows 
machine (using jaws or NVDA or even narrator) At least when an app turns out 
to be inaccessible on an apple, it isn't apples fault (hell, they published 
the API for it), it's usually the vendor of the software who decided not to 
abide by a published API.


By comparison, Microsoft and their MSAA is a joke. They don't even pay 
attention to it half the time (witness windows 8 and 10 respectively). Now, 
it is true that the NFB has nagged them over the years to resolve this, but 
what it really took before MS would take this seriously was a lawsuit.


And as for google, their attitude toward us of late has been far less than 
stellar. Ever since they moved the company head ops to India, its been a 
nightmare. SOme of Googles tools are now so inaccessible that they cannot be 
used by a blind person on ANY platform (including their own). THere has also 
been a trend toward going back to some of the older schemes for keeping out 
bots, etc. These schemes, by their very nature, are completely inaccessible 
(like visual only capchas, etc.).


compared to those, apple has been the best performer accessibility wise. It 
is unfortunate that they rolled the accessibility testing division 
(voiceover) into the mainstream development cycle the way they did. It 
actually created a situation where accessibility now takes a back seat to 
overall OS development. An example of this is the nasty bug in the dictation 
routine that they have, so far, addressed.


Given all the above, the NFB proposal as passed smacks of a money grab. 
Sorry to be a wet blanket on those true believers, but thats my assessment.


anyway, I think this thread is now to the point of beating a dead horse, 
don't you think?


-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Wayne Merritt wrote:


After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.

Regards,
Wayne

On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado <reggie.alvar...@gmail.com> wrote:


Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had 
some

issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB 
only

pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that 
has

not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems 
which

its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as 
this
one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. 
However,
if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of 
beta

testers say, then I am happy.

reggie & Lex

On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:





Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten es

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[christopher hallsworth]

Hi this is blank



> On 26 Aug 2016, at 04:54, Richard Turner  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Richard Turner]

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Christopher Chaltain]

I'm not sure how anyone can know if this is a true statement or not. The 
fact is, as other's have pointed out, the NFB has taken other companies 
to task in the past, including Microsoft and Google. The NFB has also 
applauded and awarded Apple on multiple occasions in the past. I think 
tossing out such a baseless statement doesn't acknowledge any of the 
points made in the resolution and assumes that all those involved in 
writing this resolution, bringing it to the resolution committee, 
debating it during the convention and then voting on it on the 
convention floor are motivated by nothing but some financial benefit to 
the NFB. I'm not defending the NFB here, but I wish we could discuss 
things like this just based on their merits and not start jumping to 
unprovable conclusions that take away from the true merits and issues 
being brought up.



On 25/08/16 22:27, TaraPrakash wrote:

Sadly because apple doesn't sponsor conventions. They are singled out.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:34 AM, Mário Navarro > wrote:




NFB forever!
thank you for all you do for us ...
the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues
than in previous betas systems.
I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never
before tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the
official release.
thanks to the NFB.
yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta
cycle much more stable for VO.
for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the
apple with this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the
criticism and insults that you made the NFB.
yes, on the applevis website.
and some here in the group.
you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
long life to NFB!

cheers.

Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:

I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for
not testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I
wonder if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of
the blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question
the credibility of that organization when it comes to software and
these topics.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole
<dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:


Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain
<chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I
have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was
passed so
I can make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass
despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant
surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse
who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for
NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the
author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[TaraPrakash]

Sorry.  More blind people use windowsLess said about Windows 10 
accessiblity better.  But microsoft pays for the convention and is let off the 
hook. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> Thank you for the support of the NFB!!  I'm glad it has provided a
> better stable beta cycle.  No, we don't always make the most popular
> decisions, but we have the progress of all blind people in mind when
> we pass these resolutions.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Bill Gallik  wrote:
>> To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,
>> 
>> Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in
>> the accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not
>> caring in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this
>> issue!  I’m tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to
>> accessibility and thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!
>> 
>> 
>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure
>> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
>>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover
>>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even
>>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a
>>> little pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes
>>> to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that
>>> organization when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[TaraPrakash]

Sadly because apple doesn't sponsor conventions. They are singled out.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> NFB forever!
> thank you for all you do for us ...
> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
> previous betas systems.
> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
> release.
> thanks to the NFB.
> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle much 
> more stable for VO.
> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
> this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
> that you made the NFB.
> yes, on the applevis website.
> and some here in the group.
> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
> long life to NFB!
> 
> cheers.
> 
> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>> when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
 On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
 --
 Christopher (CJ)
 chaltain at Gmail
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Eric Oyen]

heheh. hey tony, thats one hell of a pet peeve. :)
yeah, you use the groups about the same way I do. they are supposed to be 
representing us, aren't they?

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Tony wrote:

> Thank you for giving me the opportunity to point out the arrogance of people 
> like you who only want to condemn those of us who champion different causes.
>  
> Last week I was trying to select a funeral home to plan for my wife’s 
> upcoming demise.  One of the sites had less than adequate accessibility.  I 
> took the time to send them a not-so-nice complaint and request for the 
> missing information.
>  
> Within an hour I had the requested information despite that they would have 
> been justified to blow off my message because of the way it was worded.  It 
> was not crude, it was not screaming, but was not flattering.
>  
> When I visited them today, after we had completed our business, the owner 
> told me he had immediately contacted the company who maintains his site and 
> it was corrected the next day.
>  
> Unless NFB has changed their stance on guide dogs in the last fifteen years, 
> I would have to be suspicious of their attack on any dog school.  At that 
> time it was cane all the way.  People that took a dog to their office had to 
> leave it chained in the reception area.  I know one person who had his dog 
> removed from the building while he was talking to someone in another office.
>  
> I recently contacted NFB, ACB, and AFB for assistance when the state took my 
> grandchildren out of my home and said I could have them back when I cured my 
> blindness.  NFB sent information and called multiple times. AFB sent 
> information.  I am still waiting to hear from ACB, not.
>  
> Does that change my opinion of the groups? No.  I touched a sensitive spot 
> with NFB.  ACB may not be active in that area, the person responsible for 
> that area may have been on vacation, or that position may be vacant.  I did 
> not need, or expect top quality assistance from each group.  I got what I 
> needed.  Next time it may be from ACB.
>  
> I have personally assisted a number of people, including small children 
> obtain Social Security benefits.  I have assisted disabled servicemen and 
> women obtain their Veteran’s compensation benefits.  My wife and I have 
> assisted many to locate and obtain needed medical assistance.
>  
> Does that mean I am better than others on this list?  I think not.  I may 
> have more education than some, more experience than some, or more 
> opportunities to serve than some.  I have observed many blind people on these 
> lists provide hours helping others.  I know without a doubt that many provide 
> valuable and needed assistance in ways that you and I will never know.
>  
> This does not make us better than you or worse than you.  It may mean we are 
> more observant and seize more small opportunities to be of assistance.  
> Sometimes this includes being politely critical of people and groups that 
> appear to follow a narrow course in their advocacy while claiming to be 
> concerned on all fronts.
>  
> I have stated my opinion on the underlying subject of this thread in other 
> places.  Again thank you for the opportunity to get this pet peeve off my 
> chest.
>  
> Tony
>  
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>  
> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
> ...
> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
> accessibility.
> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
> NFB never done anything for you?
> read this and learn.
> 
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Eric Oyen]

and yet, the NFB passed a resolution specifically targeting Apple when apple 
was clearly the best in the field accessibility wise. I have far less issues 
with their OS (on the laptop or the iPhone) than I do with the windows machine 
(using jaws or NVDA or even narrator) At least when an app turns out to be 
inaccessible on an apple, it isn't apples fault (hell, they published the API 
for it), it's usually the vendor of the software who decided not to abide by a 
published API.

By comparison, Microsoft and their MSAA is a joke. They don't even pay 
attention to it half the time (witness windows 8 and 10 respectively). Now, it 
is true that the NFB has nagged them over the years to resolve this, but what 
it really took before MS would take this seriously was a lawsuit.

And as for google, their attitude toward us of late has been far less than 
stellar. Ever since they moved the company head ops to India, its been a 
nightmare. SOme of Googles tools are now so inaccessible that they cannot be 
used by a blind person on ANY platform (including their own). THere has also 
been a trend toward going back to some of the older schemes for keeping out 
bots, etc. These schemes, by their very nature, are completely inaccessible 
(like visual only capchas, etc.).

compared to those, apple has been the best performer accessibility wise. It is 
unfortunate that they rolled the accessibility testing division (voiceover) 
into the mainstream development cycle the way they did. It actually created a 
situation where accessibility now takes a back seat to overall OS development. 
An example of this is the nasty bug in the dictation routine that they have, so 
far, addressed.

Given all the above, the NFB proposal as passed smacks of a money grab. Sorry 
to be a wet blanket on those true believers, but thats my assessment.

anyway, I think this thread is now to the point of beating a dead horse, don't 
you think?

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Wayne Merritt wrote:

> After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
> To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
> companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
> NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
> directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
> products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
> almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
> Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
> your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
> for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
> issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
> issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
> many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
> Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
> about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
> against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
> 
> On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado  wrote:
>> 
>> Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some
>> issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
>> deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
>> operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only
>> pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
>> with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has
>> not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
>> holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
>> technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
>> their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
>> went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which
>> its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
>> statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
>> writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
>> companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this
>> one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However,
>> if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta
>> testers say, then I am happy.
>> 
>> reggie & Lex
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mary, my answer to you is:
>> read the post from Jonathan Mosen.
>> 
>> http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/
>> 
>> Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>>  Mario,
>>> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of
>>> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Eric Oyen]

um, ok. now that you have devolved into the realm of personal insults…. It 
seems to me that you have now lost track of the actual conversation (and as a 
result, lost the argument).

I am not going to insult you or do something as inane as that. What I am going 
to offer is some advice: step back, calm down and take a chill pill.

Now, I believe the original intent of this thread was to point out the NFB 
resolution and how apple and their accessibility figure into this? can we get 
back on topic?

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro wrote:

> 
>   sorry, but I'm not your doctor ...
> but I can see perfectly well that you need to change your medication.
> 
> Às 19:01 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
>> excuse me? what do you mean by this statement? be careful what I write? 
>> would you explain this to myself and others on the list?
>> I will take into consideration that you may not understand this sort of 
>> thing could be perceived as a threat. so now please let me know what and how 
>> this was meant.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
>> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 10:28 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> david, be careful what you write ...
>> it's just a advice ...
>> 
>> 
>> Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
>>> you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the blind 
>>> community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep your mouth 
>>> shut.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
>>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
>>> you ...
>>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
>>> accessibility.
>>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>>> NFB never done anything for you?
>>> read this and learn.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
>>>> called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling 
>>>> Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on 
>>>> other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and 
>>>> someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and 
>>>> should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their 
>>>> convention as a champion.
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>>>> 
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dacia
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>>>>>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>>>>>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>>>>>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>>>>>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>>>>>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>>>>>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>>>>>> I can make up my own mind.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>>>>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>>>>>> conven

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Christopher Chaltain]

Well, I think we're talking about more than just a few inconveniences. I 
was one of those who was hit with that bug where VoiceOver would hang 
almost every time I got a call and I had to hard reset my phone. Sure 
people who weren't hit by this bug can say it's no big deal, but IMHO, 
that's only true if you don't use your iPhone to make phone calls. I 
still have that bug where VoiceOver freezes up when I reply to an email 
message. Sure, I can squash the home button six times to work around 
this, but when I was on vacation last week, and the only way I could 
check on my email back at the office was with my iPhone, I sure 
regretted not just biting the bullet and schlepping my laptop around 
with me on vacation just so I could reply to my work emails. 
Fortunately, I don't have the voice dictation issue some are talking 
about, but I can empathize with anyone who isn't able to use such a key 
feature of their high end smart phone.


I agree nothing is perfect, but inconveniences using your smart phone is 
one thing and bugs that keep you from using key features is a horse of 
another color. I also don't think any company should get a pass just 
because they have a lot of products or a lot to do. Apple chose to be in 
the markets their in and put out the products they do. They also sell 
high end devices. Apple is also a very wealthy company. If they need to 
put more resources into improving quality then they could thin out their 
product line a bit. I'm not saying they have to do that, but I'm also 
not feeling sorry for Apple because they have so many products making 
them so much money.


On 25/08/16 09:08, Devin Prater wrote:

I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet, but
that's more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have
nothing against the people at Apple, I just would rather have more
control and freedom on my devices, and know that there are plenty people
where that doesn't matter, but I'm just slightly more techie than
Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I don't find Apple's little
bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones when dictating, and
no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with too much on
their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I
don't expect any system to be perfect.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
> wrote:


I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology
company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder
if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the
blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the
credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these
topics.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > wrote:


Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain > wrote:

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant
surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse
who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for
NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Christopher Chaltain]

I agree with what you say about the software engineering process, but I 
don't think the release early and release often is just an MS issue. 
When was the last time you saw Apple postpone a release to fix a quality 
issue or a serious bug? The ramifications of Apple slipping a release 
would be huge. There's a whole ecosystem that revolves around when Apple 
releases software updates and new hardware. I'm sure there's as much 
pressure at Apple, if not more, to release on time then there is at any 
other company. I don't think this is going to change either. If Apple, 
just like any other company, wants to double down on quality then 
they'll need to do this by putting more resources into finding and 
fixing bugs, giving themselves more time to test and drop fixes for IOS 
and/or pulling back somewhat on the new features going into an IOS release.


I'm not bashing Apple. I'm just trying to point out that they're under 
the same market pressures to release on time as any other company is. 
Imagine what horror stories you'd hear in the press if Apple said they'd 
be postponing a release of IOS or the launch of a new iPhone to fix some 
critical issues? Sure, there'd be people praising Apple for their 
commitment to quality, but there'd be just as many, if not more people, 
talking about what's gone wrong at Apple and why they can no longer 
deliver on their commitments.


I remember a meeting at another hardware/software company where the 
question about whether to ship a certain product should be postponed or 
not due to a bug. The service team kept stressing the point that 
customer satisfaction would be impacted if customers encountered this 
bug in the field. Eventually, the executive who would have to make the 
call on whether to ship this product or not said that customer 
satisfaction would also be impacted if the system they'd bought already 
wasn't going to show up on time. He wasn't saying quality wasn't 
important, he was just pointing out that many things go into customer 
satisfaction and the perception of a company.


On 25/08/16 10:53, Eric Oyen wrote:

um. I beg to differ with that. there are times when the NFB (of which I am a 
member) makes decisions not based on facts, but simply as a means of getting 
attention. THis appears to be one of those times.

Also, apple is the only company that hasn't contributed to the fund that the 
others have. THis is why they got a free pass when apple didn't .

btw, the software engineer is correct. adding a feature (or fixing a bug) takes a lot of 
time, review of code, testing and more review. This is not a fast process and can 
sometimes take a year or more. would you rather have a good working device or go the 
"release early, release often" model that MS uses (often with disastrous 
results)?

Now, mind you, I am not a coder. I am an IT person with a specialization in 
security. I can tell you that planning proper security has many of the same 
problems in networks that planning and implementing features has in the OS 
world. Everything takes time and costs a hell of a lot of money.

My suggestion, especially for the higher ups at the NFB: quit whining and 
actually start helping out. that's what the technology section is for, isn't it?

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:06 AM, Dacia Cole wrote:


Thank you for the support of the NFB!!  I'm glad it has provided a
better stable beta cycle.  No, we don't always make the most popular
decisions, but we have the progress of all blind people in mind when
we pass these resolutions.

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Bill Gallik  wrote:

To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,

Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in
the accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not
caring in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this
issue!  I’m tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to
accessibility and thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!


- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure
they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
 wrote:

I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover
software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even
work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a
little pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes
to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that
organization when it comes to software and these topics.


--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Christopher Chaltain]

I probably shouldn't go there, but I use both IOS and Android, and I 
definitely wouldn't characterize Android as an old rickety house.


On 25/08/16 13:34, Devin Prater wrote:

Yeah, it'll be exciting once apps release updates designed for it, and
maybe I'll be surprised in a good way. I sure hope so. But until then,
Linux will stay on my Mac, and I'll continue trying to figure out how
one lives within the open fields of Android, where you're given an old
rickedy house, but have the option of making it better.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 1:29 PM, christopher hallsworth
> wrote:


Can’t say anything more than “ditto”. Excited for it to go out of beta.

On 25 Aug 2016, at 15:40, Ed Worrell > wrote:

Actually the NFB had done nothing for the accessibility of iOS 10.
Apple was devoted to improving the accessibility of iOS 10 from the
very first betas. The first betas happened before the NFB resolutions
even were passed. Apple will do what Apple wants to do. This cycle of
betas were focused on improving the entire usability of the operating
system, and not just accessibility. I dod agree with you and this is
one of the most accessible, and stable versions of iOS that I have
ever used.

Ed

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Mário Navarro > wrote:



NFB forever!
thank you for all you do for us ...
the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues
than in previous betas systems.
I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never
before tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the
official release.
thanks to the NFB.
yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta
cycle much more stable for VO.
for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the
apple with this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the
criticism and insults that you made the NFB.
yes, on the applevis website.
and some here in the group.
you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
long life to NFB!

cheers.

Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:

I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for
not testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the
voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other
technology company to even work to make their product. Fully
accessible. I wonder if there is a little pettiness with the
national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple and
truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that
organization when it comes to software and these topics.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > wrote:


Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain > wrote:

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than
I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and
this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue,
all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone
heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was
passed so
I can make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass
despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant
surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse
who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard
for NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain”
where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the
object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor
the author
of that article would ever possibly 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Christopher Chaltain]

And don't forget the awards the NFB gave Apple in 2009 and 2010 for 
their work on accessibility and including VoiceOver across all of their 
product lines making their products accessible out of the box. I'm not 
defending or praising the NFB, but I do think people should look at the 
whole picture and not just jump to conclusions based on what they hear 
about one resolution.


On 25/08/16 16:55, Wayne Merritt wrote:

After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.

Regards,
Wayne

On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado  wrote:


Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some
issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only
pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has
not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which
its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this
one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However,
if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta
testers say, then I am happy.

reggie & Lex

On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro  wrote:





Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

  Mario,
Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of
bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and
I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from
other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not
make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind
anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply
would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also
sat in  other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No
one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree
that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many
others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation
takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and
then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality
game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering
that, it was a rhetorical question.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling
Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on
other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and
someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I 

RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Larry Lumpkin]

This messages crashed my system.

 

 

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Devin Prater
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 5:10 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

 

Thank you for that information, Wane. I appreciate it. 


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Wayne Merritt <wcmerr...@gmail.com 
<mailto:wcmerr...@gmail.com> > wrote:

After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.

Regards,
Wayne

On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado <reggie.alvar...@gmail.com 
<mailto:reggie.alvar...@gmail.com> > wrote:



 

Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some

issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am

deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its

operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only

pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along

with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has

not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are

holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other

technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting

their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they

went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which

its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed

statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the

writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech

companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this

one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However,

if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta

testers say, then I am happy.

 

reggie & Lex

 

On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com 
<mailto:mario@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Mary, my answer to you is:

read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

 

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

 

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

 Mario,

Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of

bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and

I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from

other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not

make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind

anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply

would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also

sat in  other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No

one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree

that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many

others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation

takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and

then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality

game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering

that, it was a rhetorical question.

 

Mary

 

 

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com 
<mailto:mario@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

 

 

 

you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for

you ...

You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and

accessibility.

instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.

NFB never done anything for you?

read this and learn.

 

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

 

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

Two years in a row, and 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Bill Gallik]

Well, I may have gotten a bit carried away in my last post – particularly in 
the post script! I will apologize for that remark about in a be sticking its 
nose where doesn't belong – but I don't think that organization or any other 
organization has the right to be critical of someone who prefers to exercise 
their mobility with a trained animal to help them!

– Bill and leader dog Holland



- Sent from Bill's iPhone 6 (iOS 9.3.4)

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Bill Gallik  wrote:
> 
> There are a couple of points I would like to make in response to some of the 
> pro – NFB emails post it out here.
> 
> First of all, when the low-quality iOS releases came out both for 8.0 and 9.0 
> I immediately called Apple support complaining about the fact that obviously 
> the marketers had taken control of Apple and not the people responsible for 
> software development. I can guarantee each and everyone of you as a retired 
> software engineer that nobody wants to put their name on poor quality 
> software that they're responsible for developing and delivering. This is 
> simply a case of the marketers haven't taken over control of Apple in such a 
> way that deadlines were more important than software quality. I will give you 
> that and I strongly believe that is a problem throughout this industry – not 
> merely Apple. Yes, Google and Microsoft definitely included.
> 
> And secondly, before anybody calls anybody else out on this list for not 
> being grateful and not participating in the improvement in the lives of 
> people who are blind – I can only say to you that I don't wear that endeavor 
> on my sleeve. I am, I am sure, many others on this list have giving of their 
> time and effort to try to improve the lives of all blind individuals. I have 
> been involved in all manners of advocacy organizations – not just for the 
> blind and visually impaired but for other disabling conditions as well. And I 
> am certain that others on this list have done likewise. It is nothing less 
> than tilting at windmills for anybody to suggest that somebody else is not 
> duly grateful.
> I strongly suggested if somebody doesn't know who they're referring to and 
> what that person's past is, it might be wise for them to just remain quiet 
> about it. Yes, I am coming to Mary's defense year!
> 
> – Bill and leader dog Holland
> 
> P.S.
> And likewise, I am extremely grateful for the training that school such as 
> leader dog provide that I might have the independence of being led by an 
> intelligent animal. There's another case where in if he sticks it's nose 
> where doesn't belong!
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Bill Gallik]

There are a couple of points I would like to make in response to some of the 
pro – NFB emails post it out here.

First of all, when the low-quality iOS releases came out both for 8.0 and 9.0 I 
immediately called Apple support complaining about the fact that obviously the 
marketers had taken control of Apple and not the people responsible for 
software development. I can guarantee each and everyone of you as a retired 
software engineer that nobody wants to put their name on poor quality software 
that they're responsible for developing and delivering. This is simply a case 
of the marketers haven't taken over control of Apple in such a way that 
deadlines were more important than software quality. I will give you that and I 
strongly believe that is a problem throughout this industry – not merely Apple. 
Yes, Google and Microsoft definitely included.

And secondly, before anybody calls anybody else out on this list for not being 
grateful and not participating in the improvement in the lives of people who 
are blind – I can only say to you that I don't wear that endeavor on my sleeve. 
I am, I am sure, many others on this list have giving of their time and effort 
to try to improve the lives of all blind individuals. I have been involved in 
all manners of advocacy organizations – not just for the blind and visually 
impaired but for other disabling conditions as well. And I am certain that 
others on this list have done likewise. It is nothing less than tilting at 
windmills for anybody to suggest that somebody else is not duly grateful.
I strongly suggested if somebody doesn't know who they're referring to and what 
that person's past is, it might be wise for them to just remain quiet about it. 
Yes, I am coming to Mary's defense year!

– Bill and leader dog Holland

P.S.
And likewise, I am extremely grateful for the training that school such as 
leader dog provide that I might have the independence of being led by an 
intelligent animal. There's another case where in if he sticks it's nose where 
doesn't belong!

-- 
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Tony]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to point out the arrogance of people 
like you who only want to condemn those of us who champion different causes.

 

Last week I was trying to select a funeral home to plan for my wife’s upcoming 
demise.  One of the sites had less than adequate accessibility.  I took the 
time to send them a not-so-nice complaint and request for the missing 
information.

 

Within an hour I had the requested information despite that they would have 
been justified to blow off my message because of the way it was worded.  It was 
not crude, it was not screaming, but was not flattering.

 

When I visited them today, after we had completed our business, the owner told 
me he had immediately contacted the company who maintains his site and it was 
corrected the next day.

 

Unless NFB has changed their stance on guide dogs in the last fifteen years, I 
would have to be suspicious of their attack on any dog school.  At that time it 
was cane all the way.  People that took a dog to their office had to leave it 
chained in the reception area.  I know one person who had his dog removed from 
the building while he was talking to someone in another office.

 

I recently contacted NFB, ACB, and AFB for assistance when the state took my 
grandchildren out of my home and said I could have them back when I cured my 
blindness.  NFB sent information and called multiple times. AFB sent 
information.  I am still waiting to hear from ACB, not.

 

Does that change my opinion of the groups? No.  I touched a sensitive spot with 
NFB.  ACB may not be active in that area, the person responsible for that area 
may have been on vacation, or that position may be vacant.  I did not need, or 
expect top quality assistance from each group.  I got what I needed.  Next time 
it may be from ACB.

 

I have personally assisted a number of people, including small children obtain 
Social Security benefits.  I have assisted disabled servicemen and women obtain 
their Veteran’s compensation benefits.  My wife and I have assisted many to 
locate and obtain needed medical assistance.

 

Does that mean I am better than others on this list?  I think not.  I may have 
more education than some, more experience than some, or more opportunities to 
serve than some.  I have observed many blind people on these lists provide 
hours helping others.  I know without a doubt that many provide valuable and 
needed assistance in ways that you and I will never know.

 

This does not make us better than you or worse than you.  It may mean we are 
more observant and seize more small opportunities to be of assistance.  
Sometimes this includes being politely critical of people and groups that 
appear to follow a narrow course in their advocacy while claiming to be 
concerned on all fronts.

 

I have stated my opinion on the underlying subject of this thread in other 
places.  Again thank you for the opportunity to get this pet peeve off my chest.

 

Tony

 

On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:

 

you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you ...

You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
accessibility.

instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.

NFB never done anything for you?

read this and learn.

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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Devin Prater]

Thank you for that information, Wane. I appreciate it. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 4:55 PM, Wayne Merritt  wrote:
> 
> After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
> To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
> companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
> NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
> directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
> products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
> almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
> Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
> your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
> for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
> issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
> issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
> many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
> Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
> about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
> against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.
> 
> Regards,
> Wayne
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado  wrote:
>> 
>> Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some
>> issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
>> deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
>> operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only
>> pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
>> with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has
>> not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
>> holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
>> technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
>> their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
>> went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which
>> its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
>> statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
>> writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
>> companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this
>> one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However,
>> if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta
>> testers say, then I am happy.
>> 
>> reggie & Lex
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mary, my answer to you is:
>> read the post from Jonathan Mosen.
>> 
>> http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/
>> 
>> Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>>  Mario,
>>> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of
>>> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and
>>> I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from
>>> other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not
>>> make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind
>>> anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply
>>> would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also
>>> sat in  other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No
>>> one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree
>>> that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many
>>> others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation
>>> takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and
>>> then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality
>>> game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering
>>> that, it was a rhetorical question.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
 
 
 
 
 you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
 you ...
 You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
 accessibility.
 instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
 NFB never done anything for you?
 read this and learn.
 
 https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
 
 Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically
> called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling
> Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on
> other companies, especially google, which is still behind 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Wayne Merritt]

After reading a few messages on this thread, I submit the following:
To those that say that the NFB hasn't spoken against other major tech
companies, like Microsoft, Google and Amazon: if you look back at the
NFB resolutions since 2009, you will find around 20 passed that were
directed either in praise or disappointment with accessibility
products from Microsoft, Google and Amazon. Anyone recall all of the
almost yearly resolutions and protests that the nFB made against
Amazon over the Kindle line? Yes, that Kindle that many of you have on
your desk and your enjoyment of its services, you can thank the NFB
for access to that Kindle. The NFB has spoken up over other access
issues, like the many Google apps, Microsoft services, and access
issues from other companies like the Nook from Barnes & Noble. And how
many resolutions were passed against Apple? Counting this year's: 4.
Think what you will, but this has nothing to do with money. If it were
about money, then the NFB would not have brought resolutions/lawsuits
against Target, Google, or Microsoft, among others.

Regards,
Wayne

On 8/25/16, Regina Alvarado  wrote:
>
> Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some
> issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am
> deeply grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its
> operating system, but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only
> pointed this out, and I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along
> with other things like nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has
> not caught up. I have my own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are
> holding Apple's feet to the fire and hopefully will do the same for other
> technology companies. Unfortunately, they have a past history of planting
> their feet on one entity and stomping them. I know. I was there when they
> went completely off the grid on a guide dog school which had problems which
> its students were taking care of. This is another example, but a needed
> statement too. Perhaps another technology user next year will take on the
> writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft or any number of tech
> companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as much gusto as this
> one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them money. However,
> if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a lot of beta
> testers say, then I am happy.
>
> reggie & Lex
>
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Mary, my answer to you is:
> read the post from Jonathan Mosen.
>
> http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/
>
> Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>   Mario,
>> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of
>> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and
>> I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from
>> other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not
>> make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind
>> anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply
>> would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also
>> sat in  other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No
>> one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree
>> that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many
>> others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation
>> takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and
>> then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality
>> game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering
>> that, it was a rhetorical question.
>>
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
>>> you ...
>>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
>>> accessibility.
>>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>>> NFB never done anything for you?
>>> read this and learn.
>>>
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>>
>>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
 Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically
 called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling
 Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on
 other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and
 someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and
 should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their
 convention as a champion.

 Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Regina Alvarado]

Well said Jonathan! I was not going to get into this fight. I have had some 
issues also. However, I really understood what Jonathan was saying. I am deeply 
grateful to Apple for putting a screen reader directly in its operating system, 
but they truly can do better just as we all can. NFB only pointed this out, and 
I, for one, hope next year is Android's turn along with other things like 
nonaccessible web sites and other technology that has not caught up. I have my 
own thoughts and issues with NFB, but they are holding Apple's feet to the fire 
and hopefully will do the same for other technology companies. Unfortunately, 
they have a past history of planting their feet on one entity and stomping 
them. I know. I was there when they went completely off the grid on a guide dog 
school which had problems which its students were taking care of. This is 
another example, but a needed statement too. Perhaps another technology user 
next year will take on the writing of a resolution against Google or Microsoft 
or any number of tech companies, and I sincerely hope NFB will pass it with as 
much gusto as this one. I hope they are not protecting companies that give them 
money. However, if this had anything to do with Apple making improvement, as a 
lot of beta testers say, then I am happy.

reggie & Lex

On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Mário Navarro  wrote:





Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>   Mario,
> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of 
> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and I'm 
> not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from other 
> vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not make me 
> ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind anyone. I 
> have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply would not change 
> their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also sat in  other 
> meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No one and no 
> organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree that the 
> quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many others in the 
> software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation takes money from 
> other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and then does not produce 
> resolutions calling on them to up their quality game, well, it's rather 
> suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering that, it was a rhetorical 
> question.
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
>> ...
>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
>> accessibility.
>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>> NFB never done anything for you?
>> read this and learn.
>> 
>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>> 
>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called 
>>> out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
>>> accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other 
>>> companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but 
>>> they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably 
>>> stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their convention as a 
>>> champion.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
 
 Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
 convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
 about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
 what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
 
 https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
 
 thanks,
 
 Dacia
 
> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
> I can make up my own mind.
> 
>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[rajmund]

LOL guys keep it up, it's truly entertaining...
On 25/08/16 20:29, Mário Navarro wrote:


   sorry, but I'm not your doctor ...
but I can see perfectly well that you need to change your medication.

Às 19:01 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
excuse me? what do you mean by this statement? be careful what I 
write? would you explain this to myself and others on the list?
I will take into consideration that you may not understand this sort 
of thing could be perceived as a threat. so now please let me know 
what and how this was meant.



-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 10:28 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the 
Mountain""]





david, be careful what you write ...
it's just a advice ...


Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the 
blind community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep 
your mouth shut.


Dave


-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the 
Mountain""]





you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which 
specifically called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, 
they were calling Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't 
NFB spend equal time on other companies, especially google, which 
is still behind Apple and someways, but they call them a champion? 
I say as I have said before and should probably stop saying, follow 
the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than 
I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and 
this is

more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, 
all of

the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone 
heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was 
passed so

I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate 
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other 
companies.


Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse 
who is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without 
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard 
for NFB and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” 
where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming 
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the 
object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers 
were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then 
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor 
the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on 
this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all 
this

“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be 
pretty

sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
The following information is important for all members of the V 
iPhone

list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
the owners or

moderators directly rather than postin

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

   sorry, but I'm not your doctor ...
but I can see perfectly well that you need to change your medication.

Às 19:01 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
excuse me? what do you mean by this statement? be careful what I 
write? would you explain this to myself and others on the list?
I will take into consideration that you may not understand this sort 
of thing could be perceived as a threat. so now please let me know 
what and how this was meant.



-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 10:28 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]




david, be careful what you write ...
it's just a advice ...


Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the 
blind community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep 
your mouth shut.


Dave


-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the 
Mountain""]





you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were 
calling Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend 
equal time on other companies, especially google, which is still 
behind Apple and someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I 
have said before and should probably stop saying, follow the money. 
Google sponsor their convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than 
I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and 
this is

more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, 
all of

the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone 
heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was 
passed so

I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate 
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite

far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse 
who is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without 
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard 
for NFB and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” 
where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming 
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the 
object

meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then 
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor 
the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on 
this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all 
this

“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be 
pretty

sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
The following information is important for all members of the V 
iPhone

list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
owners or

moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
Qu

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.
that's what you are. blah.
ok, I get that. you like to take pictures, and show yourself to everyone.
oh let me guess.
You also are photographer?

go take pictures to other side.
Here no one wants them.


Às 19:00 de 25/08/2016, Ed Worrell escreveu:

Actually Mario, I am a co-owner of my own assistive technology training 
company. I volunteer at a training center once a month helping newly blinded 
adults, I work with the National Library Services Montana Talking Book library, 
I am the president of the Great Falls chapter of the Montana Association for 
the Blind, I hardly think that I have to prove to you or anyone else what I 
have helped the blind community with in my state or even city. The fact is that 
Apple is and always will be focused on accessibility of their devices. Nothing 
the NFB has done or will do will change Apple’s stance on accessibility, they 
are in it for the long hall. They should maybe focus there attention on the 
Googles and Microsofts of the world, and “Force” them to make changes…

Ed

On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called out 
Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call them 
a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop saying, follow 
the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Eric Oyen]

um. I beg to differ with that. there are times when the NFB (of which I am a 
member) makes decisions not based on facts, but simply as a means of getting 
attention. THis appears to be one of those times.

Also, apple is the only company that hasn't contributed to the fund that the 
others have. THis is why they got a free pass when apple didn't .

btw, the software engineer is correct. adding a feature (or fixing a bug) takes 
a lot of time, review of code, testing and more review. This is not a fast 
process and can sometimes take a year or more. would you rather have a good 
working device or go the "release early, release often" model that MS uses 
(often with disastrous results)?

Now, mind you, I am not a coder. I am an IT person with a specialization in 
security. I can tell you that planning proper security has many of the same 
problems in networks that planning and implementing features has in the OS 
world. Everything takes time and costs a hell of a lot of money.

My suggestion, especially for the higher ups at the NFB: quit whining and 
actually start helping out. that's what the technology section is for, isn't it?

-eric

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:06 AM, Dacia Cole wrote:

> Thank you for the support of the NFB!!  I'm glad it has provided a
> better stable beta cycle.  No, we don't always make the most popular
> decisions, but we have the progress of all blind people in mind when
> we pass these resolutions.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
> 
> On 8/25/16, Bill Gallik  wrote:
>> To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,
>> 
>> Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in
>> the accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not
>> caring in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this
>> issue!  I’m tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to
>> accessibility and thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!
>> 
>> 
>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure
>> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
>>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover
>>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even
>>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a
>>> little pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes
>>> to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that
>>> organization when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[dacia . luck]

We are all entitled to our opinions and what we think. And I agree that we need 
to be careful what we write when we write it. But I think we have beaten this 
issue to death. It doesn't matter whether you support the resolution or not, it 
was written read and passed. You can support it or not, that is fine, you can 
have an Apple product or not, that is also fine. But I think we have beating 
this to death, and I am sick of reading emails about it. Please let it rest!
Thank you,
Dacia

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> david, be careful what you write ...
> it's just a advice ...
> 
> 
> Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
>> you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the blind 
>> community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep your mouth 
>> shut.
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
>> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
>> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
>> you ...
>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
>> accessibility.
>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>> NFB never done anything for you?
>> read this and learn.
>> 
>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>> 
>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called 
>>> out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
>>> accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other 
>>> companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but 
>>> they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably 
>>> stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their convention as a 
>>> champion.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>>> 
>>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>>> 
>>>> thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Dacia
>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>>>>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>>>>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>>>>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>>>>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>>>>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>>>>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>>>>> I can make up my own mind.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>>>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>>>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>>>>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>>>>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>>>>>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> avowed Apple basher.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
>>>>>> merit
>>>>>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> that organization’s leadership.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This rem

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Devin Prater]

Yeah, it'll be exciting once apps release updates designed for it, and maybe 
I'll be surprised in a good way. I sure hope so. But until then, Linux will 
stay on my Mac, and I'll continue trying to figure out how one lives within the 
open fields of Android, where you're given an old rickedy house, but have the 
option of making it better. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 1:29 PM, christopher hallsworth  
> wrote:
> 
> Can’t say anything more than “ditto”. Excited for it to go out of beta.
>> On 25 Aug 2016, at 15:40, Ed Worrell  wrote:
>> 
>> Actually the NFB had done nothing for the accessibility of iOS 10. Apple was 
>> devoted to improving the accessibility of iOS 10 from the very first betas. 
>> The first betas happened before the NFB resolutions even were passed. Apple 
>> will do what Apple wants to do. This cycle of betas were focused on 
>> improving the entire usability of the operating system, and not just 
>> accessibility. I dod agree with you and this is one of the most accessible, 
>> and stable versions of iOS that I have ever used.
>> 
>> Ed
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> NFB forever!
>>> thank you for all you do for us ...
>>> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
>>> previous betas systems.
>>> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
>>> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
>>> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
>>> release.
>>> thanks to the NFB.
>>> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle 
>>> much more stable for VO.
>>> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple 
>>> with this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and 
>>> insults that you made the NFB.
>>> yes, on the applevis website.
>>> and some here in the group.
>>> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
>>> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
>>> long life to NFB!
>>> 
>>> cheers.
>>> 
>>> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
 I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
 testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
 software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
 work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a 
 little pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes 
 to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that 
 organization when it comes to software and these topics.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>> I can make up my own mind.
>> 
>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization 
>>> to
>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>> 
>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
>>> surprise
>>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>> 
>>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is 
>>> an
>>> avowed Apple basher.
>>> 
>>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
>>> merit
>>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
>>> and
>>> that organization’s leadership.
>>> 
>>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>>> meant that 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[christopher hallsworth]

Can’t say anything more than “ditto”. Excited for it to go out of beta.
> On 25 Aug 2016, at 15:40, Ed Worrell  wrote:
> 
> Actually the NFB had done nothing for the accessibility of iOS 10. Apple was 
> devoted to improving the accessibility of iOS 10 from the very first betas. 
> The first betas happened before the NFB resolutions even were passed. Apple 
> will do what Apple wants to do. This cycle of betas were focused on improving 
> the entire usability of the operating system, and not just accessibility. I 
> dod agree with you and this is one of the most accessible, and stable 
> versions of iOS that I have ever used.
> 
> Ed
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> NFB forever!
>> thank you for all you do for us ...
>> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
>> previous betas systems.
>> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
>> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
>> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
>> release.
>> thanks to the NFB.
>> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle much 
>> more stable for VO.
>> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
>> this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
>> that you made the NFB.
>> yes, on the applevis website.
>> and some here in the group.
>> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
>> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
>> long life to NFB!
>> 
>> cheers.
>> 
>> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
>>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>>> when it comes to software and these topics.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>>> 
 Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
 convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
 about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
 what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
 
 https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
 
 thanks,
 
 Dacia
 
 On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
> I can make up my own mind.
> 
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>> 
>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>> 
>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is 
>> an
>> avowed Apple basher.
>> 
>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
>> merit
>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
>> and
>> that organization’s leadership.
>> 
>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
>> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
>> 
>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
>> sure they are 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Devin Prater]

Google and Microsoft have probably made donations or sponsored a convention or 
two, so attacking them wouldn't be in the NFB's best interests. I think the 
main problem with Google's efforts is that there aren't that many people on the 
team, or they may not know what we need. There's only one person working on 
Orca though, and she does a fantastic job. But Apple's accessibility is fairly 
good, besides the the voiceover mail freezing bug. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Ed Worrell  wrote:
> 
> Actually Mario, I am a co-owner of my own assistive technology training 
> company. I volunteer at a training center once a month helping newly blinded 
> adults, I work with the National Library Services Montana Talking Book 
> library, I am the president of the Great Falls chapter of the Montana 
> Association for the Blind, I hardly think that I have to prove to you or 
> anyone else what I have helped the blind community with in my state or even 
> city. The fact is that Apple is and always will be focused on accessibility 
> of their devices. Nothing the NFB has done or will do will change Apple’s 
> stance on accessibility, they are in it for the long hall. They should maybe 
> focus there attention on the Googles and Microsofts of the world, and “Force” 
> them to make changes…
> 
> Ed
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
>> ...
>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
>> accessibility.
>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>> NFB never done anything for you?
>> read this and learn.
>> 
>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>> 
>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called 
>>> out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
>>> accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other 
>>> companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but 
>>> they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably 
>>> stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their convention as a 
>>> champion.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
 
 Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
 convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
 about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
 what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
 
 https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
 
 thanks,
 
 Dacia
 
> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
> I can make up my own mind.
> 
>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>> 
>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>> 
>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is 
>> an
>> avowed Apple basher.
>> 
>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
>> merit
>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
>> and
>> that organization’s leadership.
>> 
>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
>> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
>> 
>> - 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dave Mitchel]

excuse me? what do you mean by this statement? be careful what I write? 
would you explain this to myself and others on the list?
I will take into consideration that you may not understand this sort of 
thing could be perceived as a threat. so now please let me know what and how 
this was meant.



-Original Message- 
From: Mário Navarro

Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 10:28 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]




david, be careful what you write ...
it's just a advice ...


Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the blind 
community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep your mouth 
shut.


Dave


-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling 
Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on 
other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and 
someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and 
should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their 
convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I 
have

that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed 
so

I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization 
to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite

far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who 
is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming 
grounds

(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the 
author

of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
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list.

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or if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
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You received this 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Ed Worrell]

Actually Mario, I am a co-owner of my own assistive technology training 
company. I volunteer at a training center once a month helping newly blinded 
adults, I work with the National Library Services Montana Talking Book library, 
I am the president of the Great Falls chapter of the Montana Association for 
the Blind, I hardly think that I have to prove to you or anyone else what I 
have helped the blind community with in my state or even city. The fact is that 
Apple is and always will be focused on accessibility of their devices. Nothing 
the NFB has done or will do will change Apple’s stance on accessibility, they 
are in it for the long hall. They should maybe focus there attention on the 
Googles and Microsofts of the world, and “Force” them to make changes…

Ed
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 10:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
> ...
> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
> accessibility.
> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
> NFB never done anything for you?
> read this and learn.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called 
>> out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
>> accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
>> especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call 
>> them a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop 
>> saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
 On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
 
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> 
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> 
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> 
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> 
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
> 
 --
 Christopher (CJ)
 chaltain at Gmail
 
 --
 The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
 list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
 you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
 or
 moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your V iPhone list moderator 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

david, be careful what you write ...
it's just a advice ...


Às 17:46 de 25/08/2016, Dave Mitchel escreveu:
you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the 
blind community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep 
your mouth shut.


Dave


-Original Message- From: Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were 
calling Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend 
equal time on other companies, especially google, which is still 
behind Apple and someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I 
have said before and should probably stop saying, follow the money. 
Google sponsor their convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I 
have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and 
this is

more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, 
all of

the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was 
passed so

I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate 
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite

far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse 
who is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without 
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for 
NFB and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where 
the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming 
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the 
object

meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then 
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the 
author

of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be 
pretty

sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
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list.

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list, or if
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If you have any questions or 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dave Mitchel]

will you give it a rest? reading the resolution does nothing for what your 
statement was aboutabout what others have done for the blind community.


ok, last post I read from you because my delete key is working well.

-Original Message- 
From: Mário Navarro

Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:29 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]





Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

   Mario,
Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of 
bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and 
I'm not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from 
other vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not 
make me ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind 
anyone. I have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply 
would not change their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also 
sat in  other meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No 
one and no organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree 
that the quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many 
others in the software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation 
takes money from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and 
then does not produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality 
game, well, it's rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering 
that, it was a rhetorical question.


Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro <mario@gmail.com> wrote:




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for 
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
accessibility.

instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling 
Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on 
other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and 
someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and 
should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their 
convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I 
have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this 
is

more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all 
of

the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed 
so

I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate 
prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass 
despite

far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who 
is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for 
NFB and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where 
the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming 
grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the 
object

meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then 
occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the 
author

of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dave Mitchel]

you have no idea what others have done for themselves and for the blind 
community. stop your gushing and learn when it is best to keep your mouth 
shut.


Dave


-Original Message- 
From: Mário Navarro

Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:08 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling 
Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on 
other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and 
someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and 
should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their 
convention as a champion.


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization 
to

accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is 
an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any 
merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB 
and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the 
author

of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
owners or

moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
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you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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owner

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Roger Frischenmeyer]

Mario, no one is questioning that Apple has bugs in their software at times and 
some of those bugs are problematic. However, it seems a little disingenuous to 
me that the national Federation of the blind criticizes Apple for their excess 
ability yet doesn't say anything about other companies excess ability. Why is 
that?? And Apple should make their products accessible, and I would assume we 
both agree they should, shouldn't  google as well? Shouldn't they be held to 
the same high standards that apple is? And if they don't reach those standards, 
shouldn't the national Federation of the blind  if money isn't really what is 
driving them, have a  resolution encouraging them to make their products more 
accessible as well? Why was there no resolution discussing the excess ability 
of Google products? And less money is really what is driving this conversation.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mary, my answer to you is:
> read the post from Jonathan Mosen.
> 
> http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/
> 
> Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>>   Mario,
>> Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of 
>> bounds with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and I'm 
>> not willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from other 
>> vendors, whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not make me 
>> ungrateful for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind anyone. I 
>> have sat in too many meetings with Federation us who simply would not change 
>> their opinion on anything despite data. And I have also sat in  other 
>> meetings with Federationists who were quite the opposite. No one and no 
>> organization is perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree that the 
>> quality assurance problems with Apple products as well as many others in the 
>> software field are serious. But the fact that the Federation takes money 
>> from other equally guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and then does not 
>> produce resolutions calling on them to up their quality game, well, it's 
>> rather suspicious don't you think? Never mind answering that, it was a 
>> rhetorical question.
>> 
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
>>> ...
>>> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
>>> accessibility.
>>> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
>>> NFB never done anything for you?
>>> read this and learn.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
 Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically 
 called out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling 
 Google and accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on 
 other companies, especially google, which is still behind Apple and 
 someways, but they call them a champion? I say as I have said before and 
 should probably stop saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their 
 convention as a champion.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>> I can make up my own mind.
>> 
>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization 
>>> to
>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>> 
>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
>>> surprise
>>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>> 
>>> 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

Mary, my answer to you is:
read the post from Jonathan Mosen.

http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Às 17:15 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

   Mario,
Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of bounds 
with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and I'm not 
willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from other vendors, 
whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not make me ungrateful 
for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind anyone. I have sat in 
too many meetings with Federation us who simply would not change their opinion 
on anything despite data. And I have also sat in  other meetings with 
Federationists who were quite the opposite. No one and no organization is 
perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree that the quality assurance 
problems with Apple products as well as many others in the software field are 
serious. But the fact that the Federation takes money from other equally 
guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and then does not produce resolutions 
calling on them to up their quality game, well, it's rather suspicious don't 
you think? Never mind answering that, it was a rhetorical question.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:




you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
accessibility.
instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called out 
Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call them 
a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop saying, follow 
the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--

--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mary Otten]

  Mario,
Since you don't know me or anything about my history, you are way out of bounds 
with your criticism. Just because I don't fall into lockstep, and I'm not 
willing to ignore the fact that the Federation gets money from other vendors, 
whom they didn't do not criticize and resolutions, does not make me ungrateful 
for progress. I am not going to walk in lockstep behind anyone. I have sat in 
too many meetings with Federation us who simply would not change their opinion 
on anything despite data. And I have also sat in  other meetings with 
Federationists who were quite the opposite. No one and no organization is 
perfect and beyond criticism. I certainly agree that the quality assurance 
problems with Apple products as well as many others in the software field are 
serious. But the fact that the Federation takes money from other equally 
guilty, if not more guilty vendors, and then does not produce resolutions 
calling on them to up their quality game, well, it's rather suspicious don't 
you think? Never mind answering that, it was a rhetorical question.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:08 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for you 
> ...
> You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
> accessibility.
> instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
> NFB never done anything for you?
> read this and learn.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:
>> Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called 
>> out Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
>> accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
>> especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call 
>> them a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop 
>> saying, follow the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
 On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
 
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> 
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> 
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> 
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> 
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
 --
 Christopher (CJ)
 chaltain at Gmail
 
 --
 The following information is important 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

you are of those  only has intelligence to criticize what others do for 
you ...
You should criticize less and work more for the cause of the blind and 
accessibility.

instead, you are those who are always waiting for others to do for you.
NFB never done anything for you?
read this and learn.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

Às 16:46 de 25/08/2016, Mary Otten escreveu:

Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called out 
Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call them 
a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop saying, follow 
the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion.

Sent from my iPhone


On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.


On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--


--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mary Otten]

Two years in a row, and if he has had resolutions which specifically called out 
Apple. At the first of those conventions, they were calling Google and 
accessibility champion. Why doesn't NFB spend equal time on other companies, 
especially google, which is still behind Apple and someways, but they call them 
a champion? I say as I have said before and should probably stop saying, follow 
the money. Google sponsor their convention as a champion. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>> I can make up my own mind.
>> 
>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>> 
>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>> 
>>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
>>> avowed Apple basher.
>>> 
>>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
>>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
>>> that organization’s leadership.
>>> 
>>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
>>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
>>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
>>> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
>>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
>>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
>>> 
>>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
>>> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
>>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
>> 
>> --
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>> list.
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mary Otten]

They didn't get any money from Apple. It's very simple.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 6:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer 
>  wrote:
> 
> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
> when it comes to software and these topics.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>> 
>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>> 
>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> Dacia
>> 
>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>>> I can make up my own mind.
>>> 
 On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
 I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
 convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
 accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
 far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
 
 Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
 in iOS 9.3.4.
 
 I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
 avowed Apple basher.
 
 I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
 whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
 that organization’s leadership.
 
 This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
 object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
 (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
 meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
 determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
 that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
 of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
 particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
 “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
 
 - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
 - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
 sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
 - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
>>> list.
>>> 
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>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
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>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
>>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>> 
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>> The 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mary Otten]

Hi Bill,
I have to agree with you. If NFB had any influence on Apple, good. I doubt it, 
but the point is the hypocrisy. They called Google and excess ability champion, 
because Google gave them money. This was before all the talkback improvements. 
There were no damning resolutions for Google, only praise. And let's not even 
get into the whole Microsoft screen reader deal.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 7:54 AM, Bill Gallik  wrote:
> 
> To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,
> 
> Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in 
> the accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not 
> caring in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this 
> issue!  I’m tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to 
> accessibility and thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!
> 
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure 
> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>> when it comes to software and these topics.
> 
> -- 
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>  
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RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Bryan Schulz]

Hi,
 
I would say not all the credit goes to the nfb as apple included voiceover to 
avoid lawsuits and retain the income flow of the k-12 market.
>From what I have seen over the last 20 years, usually nfb resolutions do 
>nothing other than strongly urge!
Bryan
 
 
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mário Navarro
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 9:35 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]
 


NFB forever!
thank you for all you do for us ...
the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
previous betas systems.
I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
release.
thanks to the NFB.
yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle much 
more stable for VO.
for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
that you made the NFB.
yes, on the applevis website.
and some here in the group.
you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
long life to NFB!

cheers.
Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not testing 
their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover software, yet 
no resolution called on any other technology company to even work to make their 
product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little pettiness with the 
national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it 
makes me question the credibility of that organization when it comes to 
software and these topics.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole <dacia.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:


More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.
 
On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
 
Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
in iOS 9.3.4.
 
I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
avowed Apple basher.
 
I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
that organization’s leadership.
 
This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
 
 
--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
 
--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
list.
 
If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-ar

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

Hi Richard.
thanks for this.

now for you Jonathan Mosen.
thank you, thank you, thank you, my dear friend.
I have always admired you, and I will admire you as long you are fair 
and honest.
you were perfect in your analysis on the  resolution of NFB, and the 
defense of all of us.


your words can not be misinterpreted by anyone, which were written by a 
very intelligent man and very experienced in the world of blindness ...

You are the example that all blind we must follow and respect.
thank you dear friend for everything you do for us.
long life to Jonathan Mosen.
cheers.

Às 15:05 de 25/08/2016, Richard Turner escreveu:

Below is a link to Jonathan Mosen's blog where he quotes the entire resolution. 
 I suggest before any more comments are made, people read the entire resolution.
http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Richard


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Tony
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 6:54 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

While I haven't heard about the mentioned resolution, I have had personal 
experience with NFB personnel at various levels having an elitist attitude.  I 
have also had very pleasant contact with some of their staff.  Most groups 
contain a mix of personalities.  I think NFB feels the need to be more 
assertive than larger organizations just to be noticed and to accomplish much 
of what they do.  I have never been a member and at my age doubt I will join 
any of the organizations at this point.  That doesn't mean I don't support many 
things they are involved in.

Apple has admitted a problem in9.3.4 that has more impact on us than on the 
average user.  They also appear to have no intent to solve the problem, 
preferring to wait for version 10.  Unfortunately, that won't help those of 
with iPhone 4s.

While there are many features on the iPhone that help us, most are developed 
for the less technologically inclined and we get to go along for the ride.  
Apple has made numerous statements implying that what they do is for the 
general user and not as an aid to us.  They do provide features that allow us 
to do more with the phones.  Also features that assist people with other 
difficulties.  But Apple also says that software developers should take 
responsibility for making their programs more blind friendly and are 
responsible for fixing problems Apple may cause for their programs by making 
changes to the IOS.

It may just be that MicroSoft has far fewer developers to coordinate with and 
their longer development cycle between OS releases allows for more 
communication.

I'm not happy but also not particularly upset by the lack of support for my 4s. 
 Android devices don't seem to be supported as long as iPhones are.

Tony

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:21 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have that 
they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is more the 
view of the individual making this claim than it is of the entire NFB 
organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of the statements and 
resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and publiching an opinion like 
this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so I can 
make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB convention 
singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to accessibility 
while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite far more egregious 
non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise in 
iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an 
avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit 
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and that 
organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the object 
of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds (usually a 
snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object meant that once you 
achieved the highest point all other gamers were determined to knock you down 
in the belief that they would then occupy that high point. Since it’s obvious 
to me that neither NFB nor the author of that article would ever possibly 
occupy  the “high ground” on this particular snow bank, I have to wonder just 
who is fostering all this “Apple bashing?” Makes me 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dacia Cole]

Thank you for the support of the NFB!!  I'm glad it has provided a
better stable beta cycle.  No, we don't always make the most popular
decisions, but we have the progress of all blind people in mind when
we pass these resolutions.

thanks,

Dacia


On 8/25/16, Bill Gallik  wrote:
> To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,
>
> Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in
> the accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not
> caring in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this
> issue!  I’m tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to
> accessibility and thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!
>
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure
> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a
>> little pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes
>> to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that
>> organization when it comes to software and these topics.
>
> --
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Bill Gallik]

The truth is that Apple had those improved procedures in place long before NFB 
ever opened its’ collective mouth.  You have no idea of the long term planning 
that goes into the software life cycle.  Being a retired software engineer 
(Bell Labs) I’m accutely aware of the lead time that goes into software 
development.

Furthermore, I spoke with several Apple assistive technology reps that assured 
me LAST AUTUMN that the problems introduced in iOS 8j.0 and iOS 9.0 would not 
be repeated.

So, if anybody really wants to give NFB credit for something that’s been in the 
works for months - well, be my guest. You’ll not get any convert from this 
corner



- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure 
they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> NFB forever!
> thank you for all you do for us ...
> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
> previous betas systems.
> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
> release.
> thanks to the NFB.
> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle much 
> more stable for VO.
> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
> this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
> that you made the NFB.
> yes, on the applevis website.
> and some here in the group.
> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
> long life to NFB!
> 
> cheers.
> 
> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>> when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole < 
>> dacia.l...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions 
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain < 
>>> chalt...@gmail.com > 
>>> wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
 
 On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> 
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> 
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> 
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> 
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Bill Gallik]

To The Jay hawk Fan specifically and all members of the list in general,

Thank you, that was precisely my point.  Apple certainly is not perfect in the 
accessibility realm, but other tech companies who have a history of not caring 
in the least about accessibility seemingly get a free pass on this issue!  I’m 
tremendously grateful for the commitment Apple has made to accessibility and 
thought the actions of NFB to be disingenuous!


- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure 
they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer 
>  wrote:
> 
> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
> when it comes to software and these topics.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Roger Frischenmeyer]

So if the national Federation for the blind is so powerful, why aren't  they 
making other operating systems more accessible?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 9:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> NFB forever!
> thank you for all you do for us ...
> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
> previous betas systems.
> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
> release.
> thanks to the NFB.
> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle much 
> more stable for VO.
> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
> this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
> that you made the NFB.
> yes, on the applevis website.
> and some here in the group.
> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
> long life to NFB!
> 
> cheers.
> 
> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>> when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
 On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
 
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> 
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> 
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> 
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> 
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
> 
 
 --
 Christopher (CJ)
 chaltain at Gmail
 
 --
 The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
 list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
 you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
 or
 moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
 you can reach Cara 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Ed Worrell]

Actually the NFB had done nothing for the accessibility of iOS 10. Apple was 
devoted to improving the accessibility of iOS 10 from the very first betas. The 
first betas happened before the NFB resolutions even were passed. Apple will do 
what Apple wants to do. This cycle of betas were focused on improving the 
entire usability of the operating system, and not just accessibility. I dod 
agree with you and this is one of the most accessible, and stable versions of 
iOS that I have ever used.

Ed
> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Mário Navarro  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> NFB forever!
> thank you for all you do for us ...
> the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than in 
> previous betas systems.
> I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never before 
> tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
> this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the official 
> release.
> thanks to the NFB.
> yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle 
> much more stable for VO.
> for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple with 
> this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and insults 
> that you made the NFB.
> yes, on the applevis website.
> and some here in the group.
> you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
> CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
> long life to NFB!
> 
> cheers.
> 
> Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
>> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
>> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
>> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
>> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
>> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
>> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
>> when it comes to software and these topics.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole < 
>> dacia.l...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>>> 
>>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions 
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> 
>>> Dacia
>>> 
>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain < 
>>> chalt...@gmail.com > 
>>> wrote:
 More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
 that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
 more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
 entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
 the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
 publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
 For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
 I can make up my own mind.
 
 On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
> 
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
> in iOS 9.3.4.
> 
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
> avowed Apple basher.
> 
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
> that organization’s leadership.
> 
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Mário Navarro]

NFB forever!
thank you for all you do for us ...
the ios 10 public beta 6, is very stable and have much less issues than 
in previous betas systems.
I'm testing the cycle of ios 10  betas and I can tell you had never 
before tested a system as so stable for accessibility.
this is the system that will have less issues when pulls out  the 
official release.

thanks to the NFB.
yes, it was because of this resolution, that today we have a beta cycle 
much more stable for VO.
for those who criticized the NFB for calling the attention of the apple 
with this resolution,  now can bite the tongue for all the criticism and 
insults that you made the NFB.

yes, on the applevis website.
and some here in the group.
you do not deserve what NFB does for you.
CONGRATULATIONS NFB!
long life to NFB!

cheers.

Às 14:44 de 25/08/2016, Roger Frischenmeyer escreveu:
I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the 
voiceover software, yet no resolution called on any other technology 
company to even work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder 
if there is a little pettiness with the national Federation of the 
blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it makes me question the 
credibility of that organization when it comes to software and these 
topics.


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole > wrote:



Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain > wrote:

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
I can make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:

I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate 
prioritization to

accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.

Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant 
surprise

in iOS 9.3.4.

I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse 
who is an

avowed Apple basher.

I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without 
any merit
whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for 
NFB and

that organization’s leadership.

This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
(usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the 
author

of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
“Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!

- Bill & Leader Dog Holland
- "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
- Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--



--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this 
list, or if
you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
owners or

moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
Quinn -
you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 



The archives for this list can be searched at:
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For 

Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Devin Prater]

I now use Linux on my Apple computer. I also have an Android tablet, but that's 
more for seeing if I want my nexp phone to be Android. I have nothing against 
the people at Apple, I just would rather have more control and freedom on my 
devices, and know that there are plenty people where that doesn't matter, but 
I'm just slightly more techie than Apfle's regular customer. That being said, I 
don't find Apple's little bugs to be that bad. Sure, you may need headphones 
when dictating, and no, that's not fair at all, but they're a huge company with 
too much on their plate as it is, with 4 operating systems, several products. I 
don't expect any system to be perfect. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Roger Frischenmeyer 
>  wrote:
> 
> I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not 
> testing their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover 
> software, yet no resolution called on any other technology company to even 
> work to make their product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little 
> pettiness with the national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple 
> and truthfully, it makes me question the credibility of that organization 
> when it comes to software and these topics.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
>> 
>> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
>> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
>> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
>> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
>> 
>> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> Dacia
>> 
>>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>>> I can make up my own mind.
>>> 
 On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
 I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
 convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
 accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
 far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
 
 Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
 in iOS 9.3.4.
 
 I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
 avowed Apple basher.
 
 I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
 whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
 that organization’s leadership.
 
 This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
 object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
 (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
 meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
 determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
 that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
 of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
 particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
 “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
 
 - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
 - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
 sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
 - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
>>> list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
>>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
>>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
>>> ---
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>>> "VIPhone" group.
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>>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to 

RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Richard Turner]

Below is a link to Jonathan Mosen's blog where he quotes the entire resolution. 
 I suggest before any more comments are made, people read the entire resolution.
http://mosen.org/that-nfb-resolution/

Richard


-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Tony
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 6:54 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

While I haven't heard about the mentioned resolution, I have had personal 
experience with NFB personnel at various levels having an elitist attitude.  I 
have also had very pleasant contact with some of their staff.  Most groups 
contain a mix of personalities.  I think NFB feels the need to be more 
assertive than larger organizations just to be noticed and to accomplish much 
of what they do.  I have never been a member and at my age doubt I will join 
any of the organizations at this point.  That doesn't mean I don't support many 
things they are involved in.

Apple has admitted a problem in9.3.4 that has more impact on us than on the 
average user.  They also appear to have no intent to solve the problem, 
preferring to wait for version 10.  Unfortunately, that won't help those of 
with iPhone 4s.

While there are many features on the iPhone that help us, most are developed 
for the less technologically inclined and we get to go along for the ride.  
Apple has made numerous statements implying that what they do is for the 
general user and not as an aid to us.  They do provide features that allow us 
to do more with the phones.  Also features that assist people with other 
difficulties.  But Apple also says that software developers should take 
responsibility for making their programs more blind friendly and are 
responsible for fixing problems Apple may cause for their programs by making 
changes to the IOS.

It may just be that MicroSoft has far fewer developers to coordinate with and 
their longer development cycle between OS releases allows for more 
communication.

I'm not happy but also not particularly upset by the lack of support for my 4s. 
 Android devices don't seem to be supported as long as iPhones are.

Tony

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:21 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have that 
they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is more the 
view of the individual making this claim than it is of the entire NFB 
organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of the statements and 
resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and publiching an opinion like 
this just based on something someone heard. 
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so I can 
make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB 
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to 
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite far 
> more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise in 
> iOS 9.3.4.
>
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an 
> avowed Apple basher.
>
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit 
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and 
> that organization’s leadership.
>
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the object 
> of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds (usually a 
> snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object meant that once 
> you achieved the highest point all other gamers were determined to knock you 
> down in the belief that they would then occupy that high point. Since it’s 
> obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author of that article would ever 
> possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this particular snow bank, I have to 
> wonder just who is fostering all this “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure 
> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>

--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

--
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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is i

RE: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Tony]

While I haven't heard about the mentioned resolution, I have had personal 
experience with NFB personnel at various levels having an elitist attitude.  I 
have also had very pleasant contact with some of their staff.  Most groups 
contain a mix of personalities.  I think NFB feels the need to be more 
assertive than larger organizations just to be noticed and to accomplish much 
of what they do.  I have never been a member and at my age doubt I will join 
any of the organizations at this point.  That doesn't mean I don't support many 
things they are involved in.

Apple has admitted a problem in9.3.4 that has more impact on us than on the 
average user.  They also appear to have no intent to solve the problem, 
preferring to wait for version 10.  Unfortunately, that won't help those of 
with iPhone 4s.

While there are many features on the iPhone that help us, most are developed 
for the less technologically inclined and we get to go along for the ride.  
Apple has made numerous statements implying that what they do is for the 
general user and not as an aid to us.  They do provide features that allow us 
to do more with the phones.  Also features that assist people with other 
difficulties.  But Apple also says that software developers should take 
responsibility for making their programs more blind friendly and are 
responsible for fixing problems Apple may cause for their programs by making 
changes to the IOS.

It may just be that MicroSoft has far fewer developers to coordinate with and 
their longer development cycle between OS releases allows for more 
communication.

I'm not happy but also not particularly upset by the lack of support for my 4s. 
 Android devices don't seem to be supported as long as iPhones are.

Tony

-Original Message-
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Christopher Chaltain
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2016 7:21 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have that 
they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is more the 
view of the individual making this claim than it is of the entire NFB 
organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of the statements and 
resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and publiching an opinion like 
this just based on something someone heard. 
For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so I can 
make up my own mind.

On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB 
> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to 
> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite far 
> more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>
> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise in 
> iOS 9.3.4.
>
> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an 
> avowed Apple basher.
>
> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit 
> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and 
> that organization’s leadership.
>
> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the object 
> of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds (usually a 
> snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object meant that once 
> you achieved the highest point all other gamers were determined to knock you 
> down in the belief that they would then occupy that high point. Since it’s 
> obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author of that article would ever 
> possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this particular snow bank, I have to 
> wonder just who is fostering all this “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
> 
> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty sure 
> they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>

--
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail

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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Roger Frischenmeyer]

I find it interesting that the resolution is critical of Apple for not testing 
their releases for excess ability and issues around the voiceover software, yet 
no resolution called on any other technology company to even work to make their 
product. Fully accessible. I wonder if there is a little pettiness with the 
national Federation of the blind when it comes to Apple and truthfully, it 
makes me question the credibility of that organization when it comes to 
software and these topics.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2016, at 8:13 AM, Dacia Cole  wrote:
> 
> Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
> convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
> about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
> what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.
> 
> https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Dacia
> 
>> On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
>> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
>> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
>> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
>> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
>> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
>> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
>> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
>> I can make up my own mind.
>> 
>>> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>> 
>>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>> 
>>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
>>> avowed Apple basher.
>>> 
>>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
>>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
>>> that organization’s leadership.
>>> 
>>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
>>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
>>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
>>> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
>>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
>>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
>>> 
>>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
>>> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
>>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
>> 
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
>> list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "VIPhone" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to viphone+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/viphone.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
> -- 
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> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: nfb RESOLUTION [WAS "Re: Let's Play "King of the Mountain""]

[Dacia Cole]

Here is a link to all the resolutions that we voted on for the 2016
convention.  As someone who was there, there was lots of discussion
about the apple resolution and the general consensus was that we love
what apple is doing, but that there is always room for improvement.

https://nfb.org/2016-resolutions

thanks,

Dacia

On 8/25/16, Christopher Chaltain  wrote:
> More criticism of the NFB that they're enfatuated with Apple than I have
> that they're Apple bashers. I tend to think neither is true and this is
> more the view of the individual making this claim than it is of the
> entire NFB organization. I'd suggest looking at the whole issue, all of
> the statements and resolutions passed by the NFB and not basing and
> publiching an opinion like this just based on something someone heard.
> For example, I'd rather see a link to this resolution that was passed so
> I can make up my own mind.
>
> On 25/08/16 07:03, Bill Gallik wrote:
>> I recently learned of a questionable “resolution” passed at the NFB
>> convention singling out Apple for a lack of appropriate prioritization to
>> accessibility while giving other tech companies a complete pass despite
>> far more egregious non-concert on the part of those other companies.
>>
>> Now, there’s this alarmist tidbits surfacing about an unpleasant surprise
>> in iOS 9.3.4.
>>
>> I personally know of a “tech Instructor” at the local Lighthouse who is an
>> avowed Apple basher.
>>
>> I find this obvious irrational animosity for Apple to be without any merit
>> whatsoever.  It certainly causes me to have very little regard for NFB and
>> that organization’s leadership.
>>
>> This reminds me of the childhood game “King of the Mountain” where the
>> object of the game is to occupy the highest point on the gaming grounds
>> (usually a snow bank here in the upper Midwest). That being the object
>> meant that once you achieved the highest point all other gamers were
>> determined to knock you down in the belief that they would then occupy
>> that high point. Since it’s obvious to me that neither NFB nor the author
>> of that article would ever possibly occupy  the “high ground” on this
>> particular snow bank, I have to wonder just who is fostering all this
>> “Apple bashing?” Makes me wonder!
>> 
>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland
>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be pretty
>> sure they are going to have some pretty  annoying virtues."
>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)--
>>
>
> --
> Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
>
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the V iPhone
> list.
>
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>
> Your V iPhone list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn -
> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/
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>

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