Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
OTOH, on Nickeland/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. Typically Raney Nickel has a surface area of 100 Square Meters per Gram. A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked withhot water heated off the engine with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed should make an interesting water burner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69+ 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 +28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickeland/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 -110.78+32.72 E = 35.31
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
If I could only stay ahead of the Jones the Cheshire Cat of Vortex. :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshire_cat "The Cheshire Cat is a fictional cat appearing in Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland. It appears and disappears at will, engaging Alice in amusing but sometimes vexing conversation. The cat often points out philosophical points that annoy Alice." BTW. Check out these Nickel Foam sheets that could serve as high surface area electrodes. We used them as "wicks" in liquid metal heat pipes. http://www.metalfoam.net/papers/paserin2004.pdf Regards. "Alice" - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/29/2006 2:14:00 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc OTOH, on Nickeland/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. Typically Raney Nickel has a surface area of 100 Square Meters per Gram. A few kilograms (a few hundred thousand Meter^2) of Raney Nickel in a nickel mesh (wirecloth) basket soaked withhot water heated off the engine with part of the engine intake air flowing up through the Raney Nickel bed should make an interesting water burner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raney_nickel H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69+ 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 +28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickeland/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 -110.78+32.72 E = 35.31
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
delta G, Gibbs Free Energy from CRC tables. H-OH - 56.687 OH + 8.18 HO-OH - 28.78 H +48.58 H2 0.00 O + 55.39 O2 0.00 H + OH + E = H-OH E = - 56.69+ 8.18 +48.58 = 0.073 2 H-OH + O2 + E = 4 OH E = 2 (56.687) + 4 ( 8.18) E = 113.374 + 32.72 E = 146.094 4 OH + E = 2 HO-OH E = 2 (-28.78) + 4 (8.18) E = - 24.84 2 HO-OH + E = 2 H-OH + O2 E = 2 (-56.687) + 2 (28.78) E = - 113.374 + 28.78 +28.78 E = - 55.814 OTOH, on Nickeland/or Stainless Steel surfaces that have been exposed to atmospheric O2 the O2 dissociates into bound O atoms ( 2 * 55.39 = 110.78 kcal/mole free energy) and adsorbed water dissociates to bound H + OH. See around pages 305 and up: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf Then 2 H-OH + 2 O = 4 OH 2 H-OH + 2 O + E = 4 OH E = 113.37 -110.78+32.72 E = 35.31 And if this correct blame it on Chocolate. :-) Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
THE INTERACIION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES: FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf 5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals 5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table 5 2 Kmetlc bamers 5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces 5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon Electrochemical Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors): http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Joe Cell: http://www.thejoecell.com/
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent in a 2 hour (7200 second) "50 mph 100 mile trip" it begs the question of how much free "auto-electrolysis" would be occurring in the 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine combustion process. 4.8E8/[7200*4.0E-19] = 1.66E23/6.25E18 = 26,666 ampere-seconds 26,666/4000 =6.66 amperes per square centimeter with 12 volts at 1.0 ampere Joe Cell "pilot current". Not bad if the "auto-electrolysis" is occurring on the 316 stainless steel electrode surfaces. - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/25/2006 5:24:49 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc According to Klein'sfans,he "got 100 miles out of 4 ounces of water". Figuring 25 miles/gallon running on gasoline only, his modified vehicle was getting the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline (~115,000 BTU or 1.2E8 joule) per ounce of water. The best water electrolyzers require 25 Kilowatt-hours/LB or 25/16 = 1.56 Kilowatt-hours per Ounce. Assuming regular electrolysis energy input, recombination of one ounce 454/16 =28.37 grams of H2O from H and OH should yield 1.56 Kw-hr (5.6E6 joule). IOW. a Free Energy benefit of 1.2E8/5.6E6 = 21.5 from somewhere? - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/25/2006 2:04:12 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc THE INTERACIION OF WATER WITH SOLID SURFACES: FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey_SSR_1987_T.pdf 5 Dlssoclatlve adsorptlon on clean metals 5 1 Eqmhbrmm conslderatlons a survey of the Perlodlc Table 5 2 Kmetlc bamers 5 3 Examples of preferential dlssoclatlon on atomlcally rough surfaces 5 4 Reactions of dlssoclatlon products recombmatlon, desorptlon, and metal oxldatlon Electrochemical Capacitors (Ultracapacitors-Supercapacitors): http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Otto and Diesel Cycles: http://members.aol.com/engware/calc3.htm The Joe Cell: http://www.thejoecell.com/
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
-Original Message- From: Frederick Sparber In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent in a 2 hour (7200 second) 50 mph 100 mile trip it begs the question of how much free auto-electrolysis would be occurring in the 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine combustion process. Are you talking about Klein? The test involved combining H2 + O2 gas WITH gasoline: http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOStest-102103.htm T'aint nothin' new here. JPL did this in 1974: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Terry wrote: -Original Message- From: Frederick Sparber In trying to ascertain my own sanity, if the engine combustion process is normal and using the 4.8E8 joule 4 gallon gasoline equivalent in a 2 hour (7200 second) 50 mph 100 mile trip it begs the question of how much free auto-electrolysis would be occurring in the 4 compartment-cell ~ 4000 square centimeter Joe Cell figuring 2.5 eV (4.0E-19 joule per H-OH generated and recombined in the engine combustion process. Are you talking about Klein? The test involved combining H2 + O2 gas WITH gasoline: Yep, Klein'sit ain't Brown's gas and the Joe Cell. :-) http://www.hytechapps.com/applications/HHOStest-102103.htm T'aint nothin' new here. JPL did this in 1974: I'm not to impressed with JPL's 1970s Hydrogen Expertise after they came to the rescue of farmers near Pecos Texas when Natural Gas prices skyrocketed overnight they built an electricity powered hydrogen plant that was going to produce cheap fuel at several times the cost of the inflated natural gas price. Unfortunately it exploded. The bank that was sweating ending up with empty farmland heard of our biomass work where 40 acres of biocrop would support the energy required for 640 acres contacted us. At the time our figures showed that switching to Diesel was the best near term option until the Texas Bush Dynasty finished opening up the Midland-Odessa oil-gas fields down the road. :-) It seems that there is a cycle where all of the energy self sufficiency problems are solved then put on the back burned until a new generation or two of engineers come along and solve the problem all over again. Fred http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection Terry ___ Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Some basics on Nickel-Chromium oxidation covered here(50 page pdf) http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/Teaching/mat1b/courseB/BH1-BH9.pdf
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided bythe floating plates F across the 4 cells. 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water collected at the floating plate interface allows the the electron of the OH - to go through the floated plates to neutralize the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The Cathode ( - ) and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. The Batterysees the small current through the cell. But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the floated plates. IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and Metal-Water Interface Effects. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm B - F F f B+ Cathode - |+ -|+ -|+ -|+ -|+ Anode
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Fred, here are two interesting related articles. They are right on topic and make the link between the Gibbs Free Energy change we were discussing the other day and equilibrium concentrations of reactants and products: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_constant Dissociation constant of water As a frequently used special case, the dissociation constant of water is often expressed as Kw: Kw = [H + ][OH ? ] (The concentration of water [H2O] is not included in the definition of kw, for reasons described in equilibrium constant.) Water dissociation constant is nothing but the H2O autoionization reaction's equilibrium constant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_constant The equilibrium constant is related to the Gibbs free energy through a Boltzmann distribution as: K=e^(-dG0/RT) Where dG0 is the energy difference between reactants and products, R is the gas constant and T the absolute temperature. Haven't time to look up the figure nor do the calculation but if one plugs the Gibbs Free Energy change found the other day for water dissociation into the second equation with temperature T=273+25=298K and gas constant R = 8.31 J · K-1 · mol, and then plugs the result K into the first (Kw=K of water dissoc.), one should recover the well-known [H + ][OH ? ] =~ 10^(-14) at 25°C. Hopefully. Cheers, Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc 1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided by the floating plates F across the 4 cells. 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water collected at the floating plate interface allows the the electron of the OH - to go through the floated plates to neutralize the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The Cathode ( - ) and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. The Battery sees the small current through the cell. But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the floated plates. IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and Metal-Water Interface Effects. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm B - F FfB+ Cathode - |+-|+-|+-|+-|+ Anode
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Michel Jullian wrote. Fred, here are two interesting related articles. They are right on topic and make the link between the Gibbs Free Energy change we were discussing the other day and equilibrium concentrations of reactants and products: That part is easy Michel, there are lots of data on Autoionization of Water, most of the good stuff on the Adsorption-Desorption Energy of Water on Metals that pertains to the Interface Effects is tied up in pay per view web sites. My experience with the tenacity of water on glass or metals was in high vacuum work where long-time pumping and bake-out were required. Never quantified it though. . Here's one on Glass/Silica: http://www.oetg.at/website/wtc2001cd/html/M-00-04-489-SCHERGE.pdf OTOH. Catalyst properties are germane. And if you can journey through this one for Uncharged Metal Surfaces. http://arxiv.org/html/cond-mat/0001076/paper.html The adsorption of water on metal surfaces is complex [18]. The data in Table 1 refer to the relative adsorption energy of an H2O molecule in a periodic array for a quarter of a monolayer. The calculated absolute value of the adsorption energy for such a molecule is 8 kcal/mol. The equilibrium adsorption position of the oxygen atom within the molecule changes from that of atomic oxygen, in contrast to the case of formation of hydroxyl radicals from adsorbed O and H where the equilibrium adsorption position remains in the fcc-hollow site. No difference in adsorption energy was found if the position of the two H atoms in the water molecule was rotated by 90 degrees, indicating that the two H atoms of the adsorbed water molecule may rotate freely around the surface normal. However, it is well known that water does not adsorb as isolated molecules at temperatures at which the molecules are sufficiently mobile, but tends to form clusters in which water molecules are connected by hydrogen bonds. The value of those hydrogen bonds (typically 4 to 6 kcal/mol [18]) is of the same order of magnitude as the water adsorption energy. On Rh(111) water forms an ice bilayer which has long-range order on the surface [18]. We found only small changes in their structural parameters. We have optimized the adsorption geometry for a bilayer of water starting from the structure suggested in the review of Thiel and Madey [18]. The bilayer was calculated to be 10 kcal/mol more stable than molecules at a coverage of 0.25 monolayer. Given their rapid diffusion, the water molecules will form such ice layers even at low temperatures. Snip: 1, The battery voltage B - and B+ is divided by the floating plates F across the 4 cells. 2, The naturally formed H3O + (or H + ) and OH - ions of the water collected at the floating plate interface allows the electron of the OH - to go through the floated plates to neutralize the H3O + or H + allowing the now neutral OH and H gases to come off. The Cathode ( - ) and Anode ( + ) plates also discharge the ions there. The Battery sees the small current through the cell. But, It Does Not See the Current of the ions discharging through the floated plates. IOW. it's a Freebie due to The Natural Autoionization of Water and Metal-Water Interface Effects. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm B - F F FB+ Cathode - |+-|+-|+-|+-|+ Anode
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Here it is. All 175 Pages :-) P A Thiel, T E Madey / The interaction of water with solid surfaces: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey _SSR_1987_T.pdf
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
P A Thiel, T E Madey / The interaction of water with solid surfaces: http://www.physics.rutgers.edu/~wchen/Madey_page/Full_Publications/PDF/madey _SSR_1987_T.pdf Finally, the magnitude of the chemical bond which water forms with metal surfaces is typically on the order of 40 to 65 kJ/mol (10 to 15 kcal/mol, or 0.4 to 0.7 ev). The experimental basis for thts number is discussed in detail in section 4.2. The strengths of bonds to other types of well-defined surfaces are less-known; heats of adsorption on oxide powders also range from about 40 to 60 kJ/mol [22], which is addressed in section 7.1. Thus, compared with adsorbates such as CO or O,, H,O is a weakly chermsorbed species, on the borderline of physisorption. It is this weak interaction with the surface whtch makes intermolecular hydrogen bonding energetically favorable. As mentioned in section 2.2.2, hydrogen bond strengths in ice and water are typically 15 to 25 kJ/mol(4 to 6 kcal/mol or 0.2 to 0.3 eV). There is abundant evidence that water forms ice-like clusters on surfaces, similar to those shown m fig. 12 (p. 228) m which some water molecules form direct bonds to the surface and others are only held via hydrogen bonds to the first-layer molecules, forming a three-dimen- sional network. A possible cluster is shown m fig. 17. It is clear that a molecule which only forms two hydrogen bonds is bound by an energy at least comparable in magnitude to the chemisorption bond energy, so that formation of such clusters is certainly plausible. The tendency of water to form hydro- gen-bonded, three-dimensional islands at surfaces is a characteristic property which will recur in many aspects of our discussion. Evidence exists for the formation of hydrogen-bonded clusters on very many substrates, yet most theoretical models of surfaces to date treat isolated adsorbed H,O molecules. (The model of Paul and Rosen is an exception [64].) Intermolecular interaction is clearly very important, and so direct comparison between theoretical and expenmental work can, as yet, be made only m rare cases. Hydrogen bonding may be less prevalent for H,O on iomc surfaces, where the adsorption energy at specific sites is in some cases high enough to prevent clustermg (see section 7).
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Posted earlier. With our cell adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solutionwas fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This isin contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) TotalResistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell _ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. 5.25 inch dia __ 4.25 inch dia _ 3.25 inch dia ___ 2.0 inch dia Cathode
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
For those not really interested in OFF TOPIC Horse Puckey. This isin contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) TotalResistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance _ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. 5.25 inch dia 4.25 inch dia _ 3.25 inch dia ___ 2.0 inch dia Cathode For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html "the capacitance per unit length is defined as" 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 1:27:24 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Posted earlier. With our cell adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12-plate (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solutionwas fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This isin contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell "Joe Cell" (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) TotalResistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell _ 6 inch dia outer cylinder Anode. 5.25 inch dia __ 4.25 inch dia _ 3.25 inch dia ___ 2.0 inch dia Cathode
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Re the potential of zero charge, I imagine an equal and opposite potential must exist at the other electrode to null the inter-electrode voltage, otherwise I don't see how the charge of the capacitor Q=C*V could be zero. Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc This is the backbone of Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor Technology. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was extended to model the separation of electronic charges residing at the metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to as the potential of zero charge. General: http://www.thejoecell.com/index.html Plans: http://www.thejoecell.com/Plans.html - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell Joe Cell (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes: _ 6.00 inch dia Anode. 5.00inch dia ___ 4.00 inch dia ___3.00inch dia ___ 2.0 inch dia Cathode For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html the capacitance per unit length is defined as C/L = 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] Posted earlier. With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75 x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell Joe Cell (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Michel Jullian wrote. Re the potential of zero charge, I imagine an equal and opposite potential must exist at the other electrode to null the inter-electrode voltage, otherwise I don't see how the charge of the capacitor Q=C*V could be zero. If there is a Bias Voltage on the plates on a floated-plate cell or the concentric cylinders of the Joe Cell the OH- on one side can lose it's electron and come off as a gas, almost at the same time the H+ or H3O+ gets an electron from the other side of the same floated-plate and comes off as H gas too. Cathode - +- +- +- + Anode ||||| The Joe Cell has about a half square meter of wetted electrode area. Giving off Free O, O2, OH, and H and H2 gas? Fred Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc This is the backbone of Ultracapacitor-Supercapacitor Technology. http://electrochem.cwru.edu/ed/encycl/art-c03-elchem-cap.htm Helmholtz envisaged a capacitor-like separation of anionic and cationic charges across the interface of colloidal particles with an electrolyte. For electrode interfaces with an electrolyte solution, this concept was extended to model the separation of electronic charges residing at the metal electrode surfaces (manifested as an excess of negative charge densities under negative polarization with respect to the electrolyte solution or as a deficiency of electron charge density under positive polarization), depending in each case, on the corresponding potential difference between the electrode and the solution boundary at the electrode. For zero net charge, the corresponding potential is referred to as the potential of zero charge. General: http://www.thejoecell.com/index.html Plans: http://www.thejoecell.com/Plans.html - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/22/2006 4:16:56 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell Joe Cell (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell Flat projection of the Joe Cell Electrodes: _ 6.00 inch dia Anode. 5.00inch dia ___ 4.00 inch dia ___3.00inch dia ___ 2.0 inch dia Cathode For the purest that wants to nail down the capacitance: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE/electric/capcyl.html the capacitance per unit length is defined as C/L = 2 (pi) K * eo/ ln [b/a] Posted earlier. With our cell, adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. At 17-19 milliamperes, several hours of electrolysis yielded only small gas production on the 12- wall plate 2.75 x 4.5 inch (SS each 70 cm^2 spaced 1.0 cm) with 12 volts DC applied to the end plates (11 cells in series). More NaHCO3-water solution was fed to the sealed cell, which increased the current to 500 milliamperes. (6 watts at ~ 1.1 volts/cell) The balloon inflated post haste. :-) Total cell resistance 24 ohms, ohms/cell 24/11 = 2.2 ohms Electrolyte resistivity (rho) = 70 * 2.2 = 153 ohm-cm This is in contrast with the 4-circular-concentric-cell Joe Cell (with 1 Megohm-cm water with dissolved CO2) Total Resistance ~ 10,000 ohms = 1.2 milliamperes at 12 volts DC. Series Capacitance ~2.8 to ~5.6 nanofarads/cell
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Interfacial Energy Etc. Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension Effect of NaOH (raises surface tension of water) Detergents lower surface tension. Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface.
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy Surface energy quantifies the disruption of chemical bonds that occurs when a surface is created. In the physics of solids, surfaces must be intrinsically less energetically favourable than the bulk of a material; otherwise there would be a driving force for surfaces to be created, and surface is all there would be" Beta-Aether Overpressure Flat Space, Frank? :-) "If the cutting is done reversibly (see reversible), then conservation of energy means that the energy consumed by the cutting process will be equal to the energy inherent in the two new surfaces created." Good. How much energy does it take to "atomize" a cubic centimeter of water down to 1.0 micron diameter spheres? How much "Free Energy" comes from the spread of a milliliter (1.0E-6 cubic meter) of water over a 2,000square meterWater-Metal or Water-Metal Oxide Interface? - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber To: vortex-l Sent: 5/18/2006 1:50:33 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Interfacial Energy Etc. Getting to the Energy (joules per square meter) at the Water-Metal-Metal Oxide Interface. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_tension Effect of NaOH (raises surface tension of water) Detergents lower surface tension. Effect on Electrolysis of Water at Interface.
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Home recipes for dishwashers suggests a 50-50 mix of Borax and Baking Soda. In the electrolysis cell might this aid the interfacial Water-Metal or Water-Metal Oxide "wetting" or will it act in a deleterious effect? With our cell adding a very small amount of baking soda increased the current from 2 milliamperes up to 21 milliamperes. Gas yield tests are under way using balloons so that pressure or vacuum in the electrolysis chamber can be handled. Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Frederick Sparber wrote: That is interesting Harry. But why use the feeble electrostatic motors Aesthetics. I like how charge is directly converted into kinetic motion. Anyway, with ultracapacitors couldn't you make them more powerful? when you can use the helium balloon tethered fair weather field collector voltage-current to make OH and H gas to run a ICE? You can also store the fair weather field energy in a capacitor or storage battery then dump it into a motor. I suppose you could use up to a 13.5 foot whip antenna on your car to pick up the Electronic Smog too. and feed it to your Joe Cell with cathode at chassis ground. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html Maybe Reich's Faraday Shield type Orgone Boxes shut out the outside world for therapy? Your last remark went over my head. Harry
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
- Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Michel Jullian wrote: I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the quotes are interesting! I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O --- H3O+ + OH -) Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) - H2O(l) - OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. - If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) plus the Added Free Energy of Redox Reactions of H3O+ + e- --- H plus H2O at the Cathode to form H atoms and the OH - electron donation to the Anode to form OH due to the Helmholtz Zeta Potential to generate copious amounts of an H and OH gas for combustion in the cylinders of an ICE. Combustion into H2O vapor I suppose? So the net reaction is H2O(l) - H2O(g) right? Again this doesn't produce any net energy, on the contrary it absorbs about 40 kJ/mol I am afraid. Michel Watch the Swiss movie: :-) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm I think this what Klein is now calling his Unique HHO gas in his recent patent application 20060075683 that covers all of the burning water prior art posted on the Internet, Brown's Gas, George Wiseman's Eagle Research products, http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 , Daniel Dingal's water powered car, The Joe Cell, and on and on. :-) http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2F netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=2f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=Klein.IN.s 2=water.AB.OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/waterRS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water Fred Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc A 0.1 volt Zeta Potential across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water interface is 500 million volts per meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current. For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission: http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron gas depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface Surface dipole In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Michel Jullian writes: - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Michel Jullian wrote: I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the quotes are interesting! I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O --- H3O+ + OH -) Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) - H2O(l) - OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm 2 H2O --- H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert electrodes the values stay constant, Michel. :-) Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Title: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an Electrostatic Dragster post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to floating it using a battery supply only. Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
- Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:46 AM I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O --- H3O+ + OH -) Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) - H2O(l) - OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm 2 H2O --- H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole Oh you meant the Gibbs free energy change Fred? My spreadsheet agrees: it finds dG=79.87 kJ/mol for the reaction as I have written it, so it's obviously the same reaction. But dG has nothing to do with produced energy, which is -dH (minus the _enthalpy_ change), which in the present case is negative (-56kJ/mol as shown above i.e. the reaction absorbs energy). dG is about spontaneity and dynamics, not about net energy. If you're interested in the thermochemistry calculator spreadsheet which can work out this kind of stuff (enthalpies, entropies, Gibbs, and more) for any reaction you specify, I'll send it to you by private email. Michel In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert electrodes the values stay constant, Michel. :-) Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Title: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the cathode, you can use all of that "Free Energy" from Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze water for you. :-) Fred - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest.Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor:http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.aspHarryFrederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me ofan "Electrostatic Dragster" post I made along those lines 17 June 2005.One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating"it using a battery supply only. Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Michel Jullian wrote. - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 9:46 AM I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O --- H3O+ + OH -) Fred do you mean the following? (H3O+ is the aqueous solute of H+ isn't it? My chemistry courses are awfully far away :) - H2O(l) - OH-(aq) + H+(aq) - 55.836 kJ/mol (endothermic) Reverse reaction spontaneous at 25°C. No equilibrium temperature. If it is then it's about 60kJ/mol but absorbed, not produced, and it only occurs in a marginal way (not spontaneous at any temperature) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm 2 H2O --- H3O + + OH- delta G = 79,900 joule/mole Oh you meant the Gibbs free energy change Fred? My spreadsheet agrees: it finds dG=79.87 kJ/mol for the reaction as I have written it, so it's obviously the same reaction. Right, and if it wasn't Free by 0.83 eV per H3O+ and OH- pair continuouly produced from high purity water you would have to add acids-bases or salts (or atmospheric acid gases-molecules) to get the 18 Megohm-cm (or less) resistivity. But dG has nothing to do with produced energy, which is -dH (minus the _enthalpy_ change), which in the present case is negative (-56kJ/mol as shown above i.e. the reaction absorbs energy). dG is about spontaneity and dynamics, not about net energy. Yes it does, Michel. Try electolyzing Anhydrous Methanol or Ethanol or glycols and motor oil, not to mention ice.. :-) If you're interested in the thermochemistry calculator spreadsheet which can work out this kind of stuff (enthalpies, entropies, Gibbs, and more) for any reaction you specify, I'll send it to you by private email. Thanks for the offer. I'll let my lackey(1800 miles away) finish running the stainlees steel Joe Cell type plate-stack experiment where present power in/power.out is 4.0 but,the energy from that lump of coal used in charging the battery is probaly going to give an energy in/energy out ratio of 0.75. Free energy does fall off apple trees though. Isaac Newton probably figured that out.. Fred Michel In running closed cell Conductivity-Resistivity tests of water with inert electrodes the values stay constant, Michel. :-) Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
- Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:52 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the cathode, you can use all of that Free Energy from Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze water for you. :-) Quite right Fred! I am told that some people living close to the Eiffel tower (which bears powerful TV emitters) heat their flats this way. Michel Fred - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an Electrostatic Dragster post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to floating it using a battery supply only. Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Title: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc But it can also function as a motor. (Maybe nanoscale motors work this way.) What I was wondering is whether the friction of motion could be used to replenish the static charges and keep the motor turning. Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: They're called Electrostatic Voltmeters, Harry. OTOH. If you tie a high gain antenna with a series diode to the positive plate (anode) and earth ground the cathode, you can use all of that Free Energy from Cell Phones, AM-FM-TV Broadcast, GPS, Power Line Noise, etc. to electrolyze water for you. :-) Fred - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: 5/17/2006 2:08:39 AM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc Of related interest. Ben Franklin's electrostatic motor: http://www.todaysengineer.org/2002/Aug/heritage.asp Harry Frederick Sparber wrote: Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an Electrostatic Dragster post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to floating it using a battery supply only. Fred
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
That is interesting Harry. But why use the feeble electrostatic motors when you can use the helium balloon tethered fair weather field collector voltage-current to make OH and H gas to run a ICE? You can also store the fair weather field energy in a capacitor or storage battery then dump it into a motor. I suppose you could use up to a 13.5 foot whip antenna on your car to pick up the Electronic Smog too. and feed it to your Joe Cell with cathode at chassis ground. http://f3wm.free.fr/sciences/jefimenko.html Maybe Reich's Faraday Shield type Orgone Boxes shut out the outside world for therapy?
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
A 0.1 volt "Zeta Potential" across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water interface is 500 million volts per meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation " The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current. For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density: J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E "The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence" Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission: http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html "Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron "gas" depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface" Surface dipole "In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential" "The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can increase or decrease the w! ork function."
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the quotes are interesting! Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc A 0.1 volt Zeta Potential across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water interface is 500 million volts per meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current. For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission: http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron gas depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface Surface dipole In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can increase or decrease the work function.
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Michel Jullian wrote: I don't know what you're after Fred (power from surface effects? All I can do is confirm the e-field calculation, it's 0.5GV/m all right :) but the quotes are interesting! I'm after that ~ 80,000 joule/mole Spontaneous Free Energy in the Autoionization of Water ( 0.83 eV per H-OH bond, 2 H2O --- H3O+ + OH -) plus the Added Free Energy of Redox Reactions of H3O+ + e- --- H plus H2O at the Cathode to form H atoms and the OH - electron donation to the Anode to form OH due to the Helmholtz Zeta Potential to generate copious amounts of an H and OH gas for combustion in the cylinders of an ICE. Watch the Swiss movie: :-) http://chimge.unil.ch/En/ph/1ph4.htm I think this what Klein is now calling his Unique HHO gas in his recent patent application 20060075683 that covers all of the burning water prior art posted on the Internet, Brown's Gas, George Wiseman's Eagle Research products, http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.6 , Daniel Dingal's water powered car, The Joe Cell, and on and on. :-) http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFp=1u=%2F netahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.htmlr=2f=Gl=50co1=ANDd=PG01s1=Klein.IN.s 2=water.AB.OS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/waterRS=IN/Klein+AND+ABST/water Fred Michel - Original Message - From: Frederick Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 1:58 PM Subject: Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc A 0.1 volt Zeta Potential across the 0.2 nanometer Metal-Water interface is 500 million volts per meter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fowler-Nordheim_equation The Fowler-Nordheim equation in solid state physics relates current, work and electric field strength to determine field emission. It has two parts: an equation for field emitted current density, and the equation for total current. For the Fowler-Nordheim tunneling current density : J = K1 × E2 × e-K2/E The point is that the current increases with the voltage squared multiplied by an exponential increase with inverse voltage. While the second factor, E2, obviously increases rapidly with voltage, the third factor, the exponential, deserves another sentence Compare Fowler-Nordheim with the Richardson-Dushman Equation for Thermionic Emission: http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/thermion.html http://www.virginia.edu/ep/SurfaceScience/electron.html Jellium model. The charge of the ion cores is spread over the solid (jellium) and the electrons then move in the potential produced by this jellium. Density functional theory is used where the properties of the electron gas depends only on the electron density. This is sometimes refined by adding non-local corrections to the properties. We note that a uniform electron gas is not a good approximation at the surface Surface dipole In the jellium model, the positive background terminates abruptly at the surface (jellium edge). The electrons are allowed to readjust. The finite wavelength of the electrons causes Friedel oscillations in the electron density near the surface (this is analogous to what happens when one tries to express a step function as a sum of sinusoidal functions up to a maximum frequency). The sharpness of the jellium and the spread of the electron density (which decays exponentially outside the solid) produces a deficit of electrons just inside the jellium edge and an excess outside. This produces a dipole layer. This dipole attracts electrons to the surface and produces a step in the surface potential The total potential seen by the electrons (inner potential) is the electrostatic potential caused by the distribution of charge density (Poisson equation), plus the exchange-correlation potential produced by electron-electron correlations. The exchange-correlation potential evolves into the image potential outside the solid. The electrostatic potential includes the surface dipole whose value depends on the roughness of the surface, both at the atomic scale and that produced by steps. Thus, the work function, which is the inner potential minus the Fermi energy, depends on the crystallographic orientation of the face of the crystal. For instance, the work function of Cu (fcc) is 4.94 eV, 4.59 eV and 4.48 eV for the (111), (100) and (110) surfaces, respectively. The work function will be changed when permanent or induced dipoles are added during adsorption of gases on the surface. These additional dipoles can increase or decrease the work function.
Re: Helmholtz Layer Metal-Water Interface, Joe Cell Etc
Richard's off-hand quip about static electricity reminded me of an "Electrostatic Dragster"post I made along those lines 17 June 2005. One might do a lot better on Electrolysis Over-Unity by tying the negative (cathode) to Earth Ground as opposed to "floating" it using a battery supply only. Fred The "free energy"associated with free (uncommitted) electrons (e*) reacting with the Na+ (and other cations) in the ocean: 1, 2 Na+ + 2 (e*) 2 (Na*) 2, 2 (Na*) + 2 H2O 2 Na+ 2 OH + 2 (H*) 3, 2 OH H2O2 H2O + O 4, 2 (H*) + O H2O + 2 (e*) + Free Energy This frees up the original (e*) electrons to repeat the cycle. The "Free Energy Density" is limited by the local (e*) concentration. It is conjectured that a vehicle equipped with a Van de Graaff type generator, dragging a collector shoe "static chain" on a grounded rail or aerial cable can collect enough (uncommitted) electrons from earth ground to run a 10 kilowatt-thermal (10,000 joule/sec) "engine" based on the above equations using a salt spray chamber/boiler. The average 5 passenger vehicle with good tires in dry weather should be able to get up to 200,000 volts wrt ground, thus "storing about 10^13 (uncommitted electrons". If each of these "catalyst" electrons can effect about 100,000 reactions per second, you are home free on water. But, don't forget to discharge the vehicle before exiting it. Frederick
