Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Well they just announced it... http://tinyurl.com/dx99wd Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC cprof...@cv-access.com Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
LOL. I do. Wireless technology :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:08 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Tom, you need a hobby. :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:47 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well, I'll add a couple comments, before the group chimes in I agree, that in MORE cases, people will chose 23Ghz licensed over 24Ghz. But that does not negate the 24Ghz model potential. For 24Ghz, 2ft Dish configurations are going to be MUCH more effective. And as well, Lower modulations/speeds will likely occur per link, in order to reach further distances. But doing 1.5 miles at 99.999% is doable with 24Ghz at 100mbps, with multiple channels to choose from. (mine was 1.7 miles long). I'd argue that 24Ghz has more channel selections than 2.4Ghz, 900Mhz, and much larger ability for spectrum reuse. 24Ghz is an ideal choice for getting a LARGE number of PTP links into a small area. This is the fact WISPS are running out of Last Mile spectrum. The demand for higher speeds has come fast. WISPs need to start migrating profitable high capacity customers OFF of their 5.8Ghz PtMP sectors, so the capacity is available for their lower capacity higher volume target subscriber base. For many, there is no longer an option to add 5.8G APs, growth instead is acheived by moving large cpacity customers to new High capacity technologies, which today is only possible w/ PTP. The first thing to understand is There is absolutely a market and demand for increasing capacity to customers within a 1.5 mile radius. ANY provider in a URBAN or SUBURBAN market will have this demand. For example, in DC its only like 3 miles side to side, and narrow beamwidth links are needed. 60-80Ghz promised a solution, but never delivered. Low cost links are limited to .5 miles, and EXPENSIVE (3X cost of Horizon) gear can extend up to 2 miles. The second thing to understand is... Why would we choose 24Ghz over 23Ghz?. The questions to ask are... and answers following 1) Do we need licensed protection, in all cases? And the answer is No, we have 200 tenant buildings served with Unlicenced 5.x today. 2) Will WISPs pay $10K for an Unlicensed solution, for a unique solution if they need to? The answer is yes. People have been paying $10k for Redline and Orthogon PTPs for years. 3) Will WISPs do everything possible to save a dollar? The answer is yes, we have been trained to do that since birth :-) 4) Is $3000 License Costs a signficant amount to save for a WISP? Absolutely, yes. $3000 would buy 1-2 Trango TLink45s, dependant on Promos. Remember most WISPs are still funded through cash flow. $3000 is a small fortune. This comment is with the premise that 24Ghz product would be sold for equal or less money than its 23Ghz licensed counterpart. Trango nor WISPs have any benefit to giving our hard earned money to the FCC and licensing consultants. Take note that based on current Trango prices, a $3000 savings is like a 25% savings of the total link. Many buyers have chosen Trango over their previous vendor Dragonwave for as little as a 10% savings. What would a WISP do to save 25%? 5) Note... Grant money will usually buy equipment not licenses.. Leasing companies will approve leases for Equipment, and rarely for licenses taht can't be reposessed. A WISP could buy more radios with grant/lease money, if they were not limited by cash flow constraints to buy licenses. 6) Are there any reasons 24Ghz might be favored over 23Ghz? Answer yes. The very nature of WISPs are to deploy fast. Licensing takes advanced planning and often adds 2 months to the process. I will say that 50% of the sales our company made to date were because we could get a link to the customer Sooner. We didn't need to plan, we just executed action. It is a convenience factor. 24Ghz offers A) The ability to STOCK inventory on hand, without knowing in advance where it will be used. B) The ability to immediately place orders, without waiting for Freq Coords. C) 23Ghz does not allow temporary install after Freq Coord and application stage, and are not legally allowed to be deployed until after the license is actually granted, and I beleive has an additional step (by FCC to determine channel availabilty) beyond the initial end user ordered Freq coord, before the FCC can grant the license. D) The ability to immediately go install. ONLY thing needing done before installing, is a quick 5 minute path calc, with large odds success
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1. On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, without compromise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I wanted to clear up, a signficant undersight in my previous post. There are additional options for 100mbps FDX 24Ghz unlicensed link. Cable-Free wireless, http://www.cablefree.co.uk/ has a 24Ghz unlicensed product shipping, for sub $9k. Likely significantly less, but I'll leave detailed price quotes to the manufacturer. The last I remember the Cable-Free product was a split archetecture, that allowed additional savings, by sharing indoor unit for dual ODUs. The unit can do faster than 100mbps (250mbps?), but personally, I don't think its practical, based on low power of 24Ghz. I will also add, that the Cable-free lacked adaptive modulation. That feature really is not needed, for 24Ghz that is using a lower modulation already (I think its QAM16 for 100mbps FDX.) So the Cable-Free solution may be the price leader today, for a quality 24Ghz product. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Unfortunately, it's the same as getting a new license...the only difference comes in application fees If it's a BRAND NEW tower with nothing -- you pay the FCC $640 / site for a new application If it's a MODIFICATION to an existing tower with a license -- you pay the FCC $240 / site for a major modification -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On this subject Charles, others: Whats the process of making a change to an existing license? Let say I wish to move to one tower 1/4 mile away? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1. On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
My personal opinion regarding point-to-point links is that it boils down solely to price technical specifications When talking about Point-to-Point links (as opposed to a Point-to-Multipoint system) -- company sustainability / support (be it Dragonwave vs. Trango) isn't really that crucial, given that (1) most WISPs should know how to setup and configure their own radios and (2) most point-to-point links sit as a self-contained system To illustrate 1. How much support is really needed on a point-to-point link -- if by now, you can't figure out how to install one of these links with at the most some basic phone support, then you may need to rethink whether or not you should be in the WISP business =) That said...after an initial learning curve, and assuming that radios are properly installed (e.g., grounded, etc) -- point-to-points are generally forgotten about in the network So, say you buy a point-to-point Trango or Dragonwave backhaul -- you install it...works fine -- 36 months later Trango or Dragonwave goes completely bankrupt Who cares? For your next link...go buy a Trango/Dragonwave/Ceragon/Harris/Nera/whatever -- the installed link will continue to work -- and by then, you'll be looking to upgrade your backhauls anyways -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. Define cost effective? You can do 100 mb full duplex RIGHT NOW for under $10k -- includes radios, antennas, licensing services -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Charles, Thanks for the prompt response , I was thinking more on availability. Say I'm on a crowded area, what would be the chances of not getting the license? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Feb 12, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Unfortunately, it's the same as getting a new license...the only difference comes in application fees If it's a BRAND NEW tower with nothing -- you pay the FCC $640 / site for a new application If it's a MODIFICATION to an existing tower with a license -- you pay the FCC $240 / site for a major modification -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On this subject Charles, others: Whats the process of making a change to an existing license? Let say I wish to move to one tower 1/4 mile away? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1. On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
The biggest thing I look for is who has my back when there is an outage. (Unfortunately at this point I have zero experience with Trango licensed equipment so I can't comment there.) I have dealt with Ceragon, Harris/Stratex, Dragonwave and others. All make good product. While pricing may make a decision in most peoples minds it doesn't in mine. When running high priority links I look for a manufacturer with a track record for support, not sales or price. I have consistently seen miracles performed by Dragonwave when we have had the occasional bad radio. I had a service issue at 6:30 PM eastern time here one night and I had an advanced replacement radio in my hands before 9am the following morning. And they're in freakin' CANADA! I don't know how but it happened, Customs and all. Considering 90% of my business is installation and service, I need a provider that supports me. I also agree on the need for a 24 Ghz. unit. I would love to have a 100 Mb FDX system that only did a mile or so. Sub $10K. All integrated. -B- Charles Wu wrote: My personal opinion regarding point-to-point links is that it boils down solely to price technical specifications When talking about Point-to-Point links (as opposed to a Point-to-Multipoint system) -- company sustainability / support (be it Dragonwave vs. Trango) isn't really that crucial, given that (1) most WISPs should know how to setup and configure their own radios and (2) most point-to-point links sit as a self-contained system To illustrate 1. How much support is really needed on a point-to-point link -- if by now, you can't figure out how to install one of these links with at the most some basic phone support, then you may need to rethink whether or not you should be in the WISP business =) That said...after an initial learning curve, and assuming that radios are properly installed (e.g., grounded, etc) -- point-to-points are generally forgotten about in the network So, say you buy a point-to-point Trango or Dragonwave backhaul -- you install it...works fine -- 36 months later Trango or Dragonwave goes completely bankrupt Who cares? For your next link...go buy a Trango/Dragonwave/Ceragon/Harris/Nera/whatever -- the installed link will continue to work -- and by then, you'll be looking to upgrade your backhauls anyways -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
On a similar subject, where I would report a operating 18 ghz link without license ? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Feb 12, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Unfortunately, it's the same as getting a new license...the only difference comes in application fees If it's a BRAND NEW tower with nothing -- you pay the FCC $640 / site for a new application If it's a MODIFICATION to an existing tower with a license -- you pay the FCC $240 / site for a major modification -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On this subject Charles, others: Whats the process of making a change to an existing license? Let say I wish to move to one tower 1/4 mile away? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1. On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Sure... at the end of the day I guess that is all I care about too. But if your ODU fails in two years... and the company you purchased it from no longer exists... your kinda screwed aren't you? Long term support should always be taken into consideration. For instance... look at Motorola/Orthogon. They end of lifed the PtP 400... but are going to support it with firmware releases, etc. for another five years. I don't think anyone doubts that it is going to happen either. I'm not saying Trango is about to go under... ultimately there is no way to really know since they are a private company. I personally have concerns about the company though... and it is something you should consider before you buy the gear. Obviously though... not everyone shares this view. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Sta tement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I'm worried that my tower gets hit by lightning... and the company has gone bankrupt so I have to buy a complete new link instead of just one ODU. That's a major cost... and I don't think there is going to be major improvements in the licensed world in the next few years... so I'd bet I'll be pretty happy with what I have installed. Also... what happens to those warranties if the company goes bankrupt? What if a firmware bug comes up... if the company does not exist they can't fix it. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:31 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link My personal opinion regarding point-to-point links is that it boils down solely to price technical specifications When talking about Point-to-Point links (as opposed to a Point-to- Multipoint system) -- company sustainability / support (be it Dragonwave vs. Trango) isn't really that crucial, given that (1) most WISPs should know how to setup and configure their own radios and (2) most point-to- point links sit as a self-contained system To illustrate 1. How much support is really needed on a point-to-point link -- if by now, you can't figure out how to install one of these links with at the most some basic phone support, then you may need to rethink whether or not you should be in the WISP business =) That said...after an initial learning curve, and assuming that radios are properly installed (e.g., grounded, etc) -- point-to-points are generally forgotten about in the network So, say you buy a point-to-point Trango or Dragonwave backhaul -- you install it...works fine -- 36 months later Trango or Dragonwave goes completely bankrupt Who cares? For your next link...go buy a Trango/Dragonwave/Ceragon/Harris/Nera/whatever -- the installed link will continue to work -- and by then, you'll be looking to upgrade your backhauls anyways -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Sta tement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
But not FCC Fees or power supplies :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:34 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. Define cost effective? You can do 100 mb full duplex RIGHT NOW for under $10k -- includes radios, antennas, licensing services -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I'd hazard a guess you should be okay... Only way to tell is to do the RF Study and find out :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:15 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Charles, Thanks for the prompt response , I was thinking more on availability. Say I'm on a crowded area, what would be the chances of not getting the license? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Feb 12, 2009, at 2:24 PM, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Unfortunately, it's the same as getting a new license...the only difference comes in application fees If it's a BRAND NEW tower with nothing -- you pay the FCC $640 / site for a new application If it's a MODIFICATION to an existing tower with a license -- you pay the FCC $240 / site for a major modification -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On this subject Charles, others: Whats the process of making a change to an existing license? Let say I wish to move to one tower 1/4 mile away? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of jp Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link We are facing two simultaneous issues at some of our sites. I'm sure we're not the only ones with such dilemas. 1. We've run out of 5.8ghz spectrum. This can be addressed by changing to 5.4ghz or 3.65ghz for some of the shorter backhauls. 2. The normal 5ghz upto-45mbps stuff isn't fast enough for some of our links in the near future. Faster 5ghz stuff uses more spectrum; see dilema 1. On the low end, to conserve 5.8 spectrum, we've taken out some BA-II 2.4ghz stuff to clean up our spectrum and done 2.4ghz G links on 10mhz to low end longer distance links such as MT crossroads horizontally polarized. On the middle of the scale, we've upgraded some b14/b28 gear to Trangolink45 to get more speed out of existing links and spectrum. On the high end, there are some shorter distance 5.8ghz links we could replace with 5.4, but that sort of investment would only accomplish one of the goals, which is to preserve 5.8 spectrum. That investment would not increase our speed at all. If I'm going to replace those links with an upgrade, it should be substantially faster, and a 24ghz unlicensed link could accomplish that in many cases. I'm in a rural area, so I'm not really worried about interference of 24ghz (or any frequency used strictly for ptp). We do have other wisps using 5.8,2.4,900, and cell and phone companies doing 5.8 backhauls to contend with. Most of the interference is from ptmp gear of my own and others, and some from colocated backhaul gear of the other mentioned sources. 24ghz should be really easy to avoid interference if used strictly for ptp links. For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 01:21:11PM -0800, John Seaman wrote: Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I bought a DW 24ghz link for about $11k back in 10/08 2 footers with 150 Mbps capacity Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Feb 12, 2009, at 3:34 PM, Bob Moldashel lakel...@gbcx.net wrote: The biggest thing I look for is who has my back when there is an outage. (Unfortunately at this point I have zero experience with Trango licensed equipment so I can't comment there.) I have dealt with Ceragon, Harris/Stratex, Dragonwave and others. All make good product. While pricing may make a decision in most peoples minds it doesn't in mine. When running high priority links I look for a manufacturer with a track record for support, not sales or price. I have consistently seen miracles performed by Dragonwave when we have had the occasional bad radio. I had a service issue at 6:30 PM eastern time here one night and I had an advanced replacement radio in my hands before 9am the following morning. And they're in freakin' CANADA! I don't know how but it happened, Customs and all. Considering 90% of my business is installation and service, I need a provider that supports me. I also agree on the need for a 24 Ghz. unit. I would love to have a 100 Mb FDX system that only did a mile or so. Sub $10K. All integrated. -B- Charles Wu wrote: My personal opinion regarding point-to-point links is that it boils down solely to price technical specifications When talking about Point-to-Point links (as opposed to a Point-to- Multipoint system) -- company sustainability / support (be it Dragonwave vs. Trango) isn't really that crucial, given that (1) most WISPs should know how to setup and configure their own radios and (2) most point-to-point links sit as a self-contained system To illustrate 1. How much support is really needed on a point-to-point link -- if by now, you can't figure out how to install one of these links with at the most some basic phone support, then you may need to rethink whether or not you should be in the WISP business =) That said...after an initial learning curve, and assuming that radios are properly installed (e.g., grounded, etc) -- point-to- points are generally forgotten about in the network So, say you buy a point-to-point Trango or Dragonwave backhaul -- you install it...works fine -- 36 months later Trango or Dragonwave goes completely bankrupt Who cares? For your next link...go buy a Trango/Dragonwave/Ceragon/ Harris/Nera/whatever -- the installed link will continue to work -- and by then, you'll be looking to upgrade your backhauls anyways -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Don't get me started on Motorola. IMHO they screwed up the Orthogon thing big time when they bought that company. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:47:09 To: 'WISPA General List'wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Sure... at the end of the day I guess that is all I care about too. But if your ODU fails in two years... and the company you purchased it from no longer exists... your kinda screwed aren't you? Long term support should always be taken into consideration. For instance... look at Motorola/Orthogon. They end of lifed the PtP 400... but are going to support it with firmware releases, etc. for another five years. I don't think anyone doubts that it is going to happen either. I'm not saying Trango is about to go under... ultimately there is no way to really know since they are a private company. I personally have concerns about the company though... and it is something you should consider before you buy the gear. Obviously though... not everyone shares this view. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Sta tement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Why ? Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Feb 12, 2009, at 4:14 PM, lakel...@gbcx.net lakel...@gbcx.net wrote: Don't get me started on Motorola. IMHO they screwed up the Orthogon thing big time when they bought that company. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:47:09 To: 'WISPA General List'wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Sure... at the end of the day I guess that is all I care about too. But if your ODU fails in two years... and the company you purchased it from no longer exists... your kinda screwed aren't you? Long term support should always be taken into consideration. For instance... look at Motorola/Orthogon. They end of lifed the PtP 400... but are going to support it with firmware releases, etc. for another five years. I don't think anyone doubts that it is going to happen either. I'm not saying Trango is about to go under... ultimately there is no way to really know since they are a private company. I personally have concerns about the company though... and it is something you should consider before you buy the gear. Obviously though... not everyone shares this view. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Sta tement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to get over the hump So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 12:33:41PM -0600, Charles Wu wrote: For one of our busy sites right now, we have two 5ghz links to it in order to have good speed, as one wasn't enough (and the redundancy was a good byproduct). I would love a few cost effective 2 mile links that don't need licensing, doesn't use 5ghz and can do 200mbps actual data or faster. If 24ghz can do that, we'd take it. Define cost effective? You can do 100 mb full duplex RIGHT NOW for under $10k -- includes radios, antennas, licensing services -Charles Well, if it can be done for a couple thousand less if licensing were not necessary, that would be even more attractive. -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Another item that I would like to bring up... the US economy is in sad shape right now. So, if you are looking to buy a licensed radio set, are you better to send your money to Canada, or keep it here in the US? For all practical and "reasonable" items, DW and Trango both have a great ptp licensed radios. So, if everything is basically the same, why wouldn't you spend LESS money AND keep the money in the US? And, CTI has published their exact pricing for the Trango. Why is nobody else putting out the DW price? Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: Sure... at the end of the day I guess that is all I care about too. But if your ODU fails in two years... and the company you purchased it from no longer exists... your kinda screwed aren't you? Long term support should always be taken into consideration. For instance... look at Motorola/Orthogon. They end of lifed the PtP 400... but are going to support it with firmware releases, etc. for another five years. I don't think anyone doubts that it is going to happen either. I'm not saying Trango is about to go under... ultimately there is no way to really know since they are a private company. I personally have concerns about the company though... and it is something you should consider before you buy the gear. Obviously though... not everyone shares this view. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:38 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link From what I gather in this post my synopsis is as follows. Both Dragonwave and Trango are fine ptp products with small differences. Both companies have problems either financially or historically. I think the geeks in us care about the products and the operation managers in us care about the business. As was said there is no wrong choice. Is this a correct statement or am I wrong and where? On 2/12/09, Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com wrote: Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Sta tement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... Sales mean nothing -- the true test of a company's health and viability is profitability (net income) and cash flow The numbers you referenced show that Dragonwave loss $3.8 million and burned $8.7 million in cash in the last 9 months ended November 2008 It shows them having $10 million in cash, $10 million in AR and $14 million in short term investments Reading Dragonwave's financials, while it's not a disaster, paints the picture of a start-up company that's trying to "get over the hump" So...assuming a soft economy...where performance is similar to where they are now, and from a simplistic perspective, assuming they can collect all their AR liquidate all their investments at market value, Dragonwave has ~3 years before they have to turn profitable, sell or raise more money -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! htt
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
On Feb 12, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: And, CTI has published their exact pricing for the Trango. Why is nobody else putting out the DW price? I don't know, but our last quote from CTI had the DW coming in less than Trango. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Charles, Thanks for the prompt response , I was thinking more on availability. Say I'm on a crowded area, what would be the chances of not getting the license? Hard to say...but keep in mind, we were able to get that license for you after Micronet said no-go That said, even though you have to place a PO, we make it a practice not to bill a customer if we are unable to obtain the frequencies for you to license -Charles This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Only half of the truth. Was the quote less... yes. Is it related to the conversation right now (i.e. Apex line vs. Dragonwave)... no. NOT APPLES TO APPLES. The particular quote was for a Trango GIGA line, not APEX (need for T-1 ports). In order to get the reliability needed, we had to quote a higher dish size with the GIGA because of modulation issues. The GIGA line will bring down the throughput during rain in order to keep the link going but not automatically bring it back to normal speeds. It is a brief time period but you have to bring the link down in order to fix it and up to +300mbps again. Because this customer has HIGH SLAs we had to be very careful that the link didn't go down. With a comparable Dragonwave, we were able to quote a smaller dish size due to automatic modulation. So, because of the raw cost of smaller dishes and then leasing costs of less space due to smaller dishes, the Dragonwave quote came in lower. This is an exception and not a rule. If it were not for the need of the T-1 ports, everything would have been normal pricing because the APEX line does speed up without the need of bringing the link down. This is the most popular option right now so there is a little misunderstanding. APPLES TO APPLES, the Trango APEX product will be 10-20% lower cost. Bottom line. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On Feb 12, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: And, CTI has published their exact pricing for the Trango. Why is nobody else putting out the DW price? I don't know, but our last quote from CTI had the DW coming in less than Trango. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Jeff, Can we put this to bed already? :) The Trango APEX with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination is $9,995 right now. Not sure how much the 300Mbps license key is? And the PoE and -48v power supplies? Can you please quote a _complete_ Trango APEX system and a _complete_ DW comparable system and post the numbers? Travis Microserv Jeff Ehman wrote: Only half of the truth. Was the quote less... yes. Is it related to the conversation right now (i.e. Apex line vs. Dragonwave)... no. NOT APPLES TO APPLES. The particular quote was for a Trango GIGA line, not APEX (need for T-1 ports). In order to get the reliability needed, we had to quote a higher dish size with the GIGA because of modulation issues. The GIGA line will bring down the throughput during rain in order to keep the link going but not automatically bring it back to normal speeds. It is a brief time period but you have to bring the link down in order to fix it and up to +300mbps again. Because this customer has HIGH SLAs we had to be very careful that the link didn't go down. With a comparable Dragonwave, we were able to quote a smaller dish size due to automatic modulation. So, because of the raw cost of smaller dishes and then leasing costs of less space due to smaller dishes, the Dragonwave quote came in lower. This is an exception and not a rule. If it were not for the need of the T-1 ports, everything would have been normal pricing because the APEX line does speed up without the need of bringing the link down. This is the most popular option right now so there is a little misunderstanding. APPLES TO APPLES, the Trango APEX product will be 10-20% lower cost. Bottom line. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link On Feb 12, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: And, CTI has published their exact pricing for the Trango. Why is nobody else putting out the DW price? I don't know, but our last quote from CTI had the DW coming in less than Trango. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I will second this, I would love to hear it! -Cameron -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Isn't that the purpose of a public forum? :) Travis Microserv Jeff Ehman wrote: All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I'll get this posted later today. Unbelievably busy this morning. Give me some time. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kilton Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:40 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I will second this, I would love to hear it! -Cameron -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Isn't that the purpose of a public forum? :) Travis Microserv Jeff Ehman wrote: All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Brad, Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed nine Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't repost these comments because many got tired of the whole Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go back through the achieves. - Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth of equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or so. It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the market, especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. - Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all available now. - Lower power consumption - Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been in the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still buggy. - CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the CLI. Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be configured either way easily. - LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. four). From my own personal experience on this one. - Better link margins when using the High Power product - Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up the e-mail I sent to the list about this. - Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and the ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I did (9 links) The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing on the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... hit me offlist. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you to back up your statements regarding close in price and performance much better. Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing product and run the other way. I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I have to run out into the field to work on a Bridgewave link (people pay good money for that :-). I'll answer this tonight. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a comparable speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the benefits of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hmmm...sure sounds like you have an inordinate amount of service work on your linksgrin I'm working on a response to your other post with a line item side by side comparison between Dragonwave and Trango, but it will probably be tomorrow before it's posted. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I have to run out into the field to work on a Bridgewave link (people pay good money for that :-). I'll answer this tonight. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a comparable speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the benefits of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
We are in Baltimore and now have Sprint WiMax to compete against in the residential market. Hearing a lot of people say how great it was, I decided to check it out. What I found was that they have prioritized nearly every major speed test site. Running tests to those sites show 4-6+ Mbps down and about 1.2-2Mbps up. Running the same test to our speed test site yields only 512k or so. Web surfing feels like 512k as well. Doing transfers to different places doesn't match the speed test results either. It seems like the only metric people use to determine how good of a connection they have is to run speed tests. While people in the know would run iperfs and FTP transfers, everyone else just surfs to site and clicks check my speed. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Hmmm...sure sounds like you have an inordinate amount of service work on your linksgrin I'm working on a response to your other post with a line item side by side comparison between Dragonwave and Trango, but it will probably be tomorrow before it's posted. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I have to run out into the field to work on a Bridgewave link (people pay good money for that :-). I'll answer this tonight. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a comparable speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the benefits of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hmm nice idea ... :-) Anyone gave a list of the most popular sites? Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of can...@believewireless.net Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link We are in Baltimore and now have Sprint WiMax to compete against in the residential market. Hearing a lot of people say how great it was, I decided to check it out. What I found was that they have prioritized nearly every major speed test site. Running tests to those sites show 4-6+ Mbps down and about 1.2-2Mbps up. Running the same test to our speed test site yields only 512k or so. Web surfing feels like 512k as well. Doing transfers to different places doesn't match the speed test results either. It seems like the only metric people use to determine how good of a connection they have is to run speed tests. While people in the know would run iperfs and FTP transfers, everyone else just surfs to site and clicks check my speed. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: Hmmm...sure sounds like you have an inordinate amount of service work on your linksgrin I'm working on a response to your other post with a line item side by side comparison between Dragonwave and Trango, but it will probably be tomorrow before it's posted. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I have to run out into the field to work on a Bridgewave link (people pay good money for that :-). I'll answer this tonight. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a comparable speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the benefits of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
. - Contact us or CTI for pricing off-list. John Seaman Trango Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:36 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Brad, Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed nine Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't repost these comments because many got tired of the whole Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go back through the achieves. - Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth of equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or so. It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the market, especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. - Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all available now. - Lower power consumption - Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been in the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still buggy. - CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the CLI. Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be configured either way easily. - LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. four). From my own personal experience on this one. - Better link margins when using the High Power product - Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up the e-mail I sent to the list about this. - Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and the ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I did (9 links) The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing on the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... hit me offlist. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you to back up your statements regarding close in price and performance much better. Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing product and run the other way. I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
transition between he ODU and the antenna. It requires four little screws to put it in. Not a big deal. The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. - Contact us or CTI for pricing off-list. John Seaman Trango Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:36 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Brad, Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed nine Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't repost these comments because many got tired of the whole Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go back through the achieves. - Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth of equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or so. It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the market, especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. - Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all available now. - Lower power consumption - Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been in the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still buggy. - CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the CLI. Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be configured either way easily. - LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. four). From my own personal experience on this one. - Better link margins when using the High Power product - Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up the e-mail I sent to the list about this. - Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and the ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I did (9 links) The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing on the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... hit me offlist. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you to back up your statements regarding close in price and performance much better. Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing product and run the other way. I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). Both of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port option allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next. Dragonwave does not have this feature.The APEX offers TRUE Hitless ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will move to slower modulations without taking any hits. I don't believe that Horizon Compact offers hitless ACM. Daniel, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Regarding the GIGA, one other point which comes up often is that the Dragonwave split solution (Airpair) allows only for very short (300 ft?) IF cable runs. TrangoLINK-GIGA allows for 1000 ft of cable. As for Daniel's other points: -Products available now: TrangoLINK-GIGA 6, 11, 18, 23 GHz. APEX 18, 11 GHz. 23 Ghz coming next month. -Power Consumption: TrangoLINK-APEX power consumption is lower than Horizon Compact High power version although higher than Horizon standard power version, which stands to reason. -Field Proven: Latest releases of GIGA and APEX firmware highly stable. TrangoLINK-GIGA has been in the field for 18 months now. -CLI/GUI: You can do a full link setup using only the GUI interface on GIGA and APEX although admitedly the CLI has more functionality. Our firware engineers will enhance this in future releases. The CLI is very much like a Cisco interface and most users are very comfortable in the CLI. -LED Allignment - the allignment tool has received rave reviews from most installers. One thing I'd like to mention is that our newer ODUs coming out, and all APEX models have built-in power detector in the ODU to make the RSSI readouts more responsive than in the earlier ODUs. So the LED indicator that Daniel used
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). Both of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port option allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next. Dragonwave does not have this feature.The APEX offers TRUE Hitless ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will move to slower modulations without taking any hits. I don't believe that Horizon Compact offers hitless ACM. Daniel, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Regarding the GIGA, one other point which comes up often is that the Dragonwave split solution (Airpair) allows only for very short (300 ft?) IF cable runs. TrangoLINK-GIGA allows for 1000 ft of cable. As for Daniel's other points: -Products available now: TrangoLINK-GIGA 6, 11, 18, 23 GHz. APEX 18, 11 GHz. 23 Ghz coming next month. -Power Consumption: TrangoLINK-APEX power consumption is lower than Horizon Compact High power version although higher than Horizon standard power version, which stands to reason. -Field Proven: Latest releases of GIGA and APEX firmware highly stable. TrangoLINK-GIGA has been in the field for 18 months now. -CLI/GUI: You can do a full link setup using only the GUI interface on GIGA and APEX although admitedly the CLI has more functionality. Our firware engineers will enhance this in future releases. The CLI is very much like a Cisco interface and most users are very comfortable in the CLI. -LED Allignment
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
h channels availble in the radio. - Daniel is the only one I've heard of complaining about the waveguide transition between he ODU and the antenna. It requires four little screws to put it in. Not a big deal. The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. - Contact us or CTI for pricing off-list. John Seaman Trango Systems, Inc. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:36 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Brad, Go back through the list achieves... I think I have made my stance on why Dragonwave is better in my opinion than Trango. I've installed nine Trango Giga links... so my opinion is based on my own personal experience... not just the Dragonwave marketing material. I didn't repost these comments because many got tired of the whole Dragonwave/Trango battle on the list. I sent this to someone earlier though... I could come up with more reasons if you wish... or just go back through the achieves. - Volume of product sold - Dragonwave sold $50 million dollars worth of equipment last year... by all reports Trango sold only 100 links or so. It is not unreasonable to think that Trango may not last in the market, especially with them ditching their point to multi-point product. - Dragonwave 6GHz, 11GHz, 18GHz, 23GHz, 24GHz, and 38GHz is all available now. - Lower power consumption - Field Proven - Firmware releases are stable... Trango has only been in the field for about a year now, and firmware by many accounts is still buggy. - CLI/GUI - Trango GUI is not useable, all commands must come from the CLI. Often these commands are confusing to use. Dragonwave can be configured either way easily. - LED Alignment/Voltmeter Alignment - LED Alignment on Trango gear is not as accurate as voltmeter on Dragonwave... can make aligning difficult links that much harder (since you only have two digits vs. four). From my own personal experience on this one. - Better link margins when using the High Power product - Trango 18GHz equipment does not cover the full band... I can dig up the e-mail I sent to the list about this. - Dragonwave does not have a waveguide adapter between the dish and the ODU... this caused a few problems on the massive Trango deployment I did (9 links) The price difference is in the sub-$1k range. I don't quote pricing on the list unless it is an advertised special. If you want a quote... hit me offlist. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:06 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you to back up your statements regarding "close" in price and "performance much better". Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing product and run the other way. I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a publi
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). Both of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port option allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next. Dragonwave does not have this feature.The APEX offers TRUE Hitless ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will move to slower modulations without taking any hits. I don't believe that Horizon Compact offers hitless ACM. Daniel, feel free to correct me if I am wrong. Regarding the GIGA, one other point which comes up often is that the Dragonwave split solution (Airpair) allows only for very short (300 ft?) IF cable runs. TrangoLINK-GIGA allows for 1000 ft of cable. As for Daniel's other points: -Products available now: TrangoLINK-GIGA 6, 11, 18, 23 GHz. APEX 18, 11 GHz. 23 Ghz coming next month. -Power Consumption: TrangoLINK-APEX power consumption is lower than Horizon Compact High power version although higher than Horizon standard power
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). Both of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port option allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I didn't purchase Trango to begin with, the company was acquired =) I just find it hard to make any money off of a customer paying $50/mo when I have to spend $700 on a CPE. I was told (this is word of mouth, no proof) that the CPEs were reasonably priced in the past and for whatever reason were skyrocketed. If it takes a year for an ROI for every customer there is no way starting companies can do this. If you can even get the unit cut in half to $350 that is still twice our MikroTik cost. As far as performance goes they're not bad at all. I find the peak of 7 megs with these products workable. The enclosure is beautiful - simple and it works. The dual polarity built in antennas is quite simply an amazing feature. The priority feature that significantly improves the number of capable SUs per AP is what really separates it from 802.11a. I've heard of 100 customers on a single AP. I am by no means blaming you, John, but the decision makers at Trango. If you had to do it, you had to do it. I may have had the worst experience out there, but I am warning everyone out there of my experiences as that is what the lists are for - sharing experience and knowledge. I was part of the company when we had a Trango point to point link but I never saw it myself - it died and we replaced it with Redline An50s. I don't know if it was hardware failure, lightning or even a totally different frequency. The only facts I have are: Trango, point to point, it was required we replaced it. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:31 PM, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
That was exactly my point, Patrick. With the PMP products they flip flopped. They started making PTP products - what's to say they won't do the same thing to those who have these deployed? Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice... Also, how is the support with the PTP products? I have been listening in on all licensed PTP equipment but I am not even around to shopping. All the backhauls are currently 5GHz which I would like to replace over the coming months, years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, without compromise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX is the all outdoor POE product which offers a GigE port as well as a plug-in slot for a fiber SFP module. I have never been able to determine how the Dragonwave optical option works...but I dont think it is anything as simple as APEX (Daniel feel free to provide details). Both of the traffic ports (optical and GigE copper) on the APEX can be used simultaneously. GIGA and APEX both offer port priority and QoS functionality as well as rapid port shutdown. The multiple port option allows users to completely segregate traffic from one port to the next. Dragonwave does not have this feature.The APEX offers TRUE Hitless ACM which is Adaptive Coding Modulation which means the system will move to slower modulations
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, without compromise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We really should put one together. Truth is there are many similarities and also some key differences. For those who may not be aware, Trango offers two primary product lines: TrangoLINK-GIGA and TrangoLINK-APEX. GIGA is our split architecture system which offers 4 GigE Ports (Dragonwave 1), 8 T1 ports (Dragonwave zero). The APEX
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Josh, No one will disagree that the Flip-Flopping price structures with the Trango PTMP lines was very annoying. And to be honest, the industry and I know it cost Trango customers. But there is a flip side, to identify value. For example, 99.9% of my original installed Trango gear (starting in 2001) is still in service, generating Revenue, and surviving interference better than any new product line on the market that I have used, for my application and circumstances. Many early generation WISPs (sub yr 2000) argued a likely need to change/upgrade technology every 3 years, and a new WISP should plan for such. I'm going on 8 years now, without the need to replace gear. And I charge a lot more than $50/month. That is an amazing value proposition, that I never predicted when I made the decission to buy into the Trango solution. I underestimated what it would take to make sales, and I did not meet my benchmarks as planned. I'm just glad I didn't underestimate the need to use Trango, because if I had to replace gear in 3 years, I would have been out of business today. I attribute the longevity of their product line to fine quality components internally and good engineering. I believe Trango is putting the same heart into their new PTP lines, and I do not doubt for a second that the product line will have the longevity that my business financial model requires. Again, I'm not suggesting which product you should buy, or which will have better value for you. You should evaluate all PTP options. But I am suggesting that you don't sell yourself short, by making the decission for the wrong reasons. With PtMP system, you are locking yourself into a platform for future buying decissions. With PTP you are not. You can change buying patterns link by links, as you see fit, without abandoning previous investments.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link That was exactly my point, Patrick. With the PMP products they flip flopped. They started making PTP products - what's to say they won't do the same thing to those who have these deployed? Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice... Also, how is the support with the PTP products? I have been listening in on all licensed PTP equipment but I am not even around to shopping. All the backhauls are currently 5GHz which I would like to replace over the coming months, years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Trango has a way of destroying their reputation even when their product is not at fault. We've had them offer us volume discounts only later to see the same price offered without a volume requirement as part of a promotion. I can't get a modern firmware for our older 5010s that operate in 5.2 because the new firmware turns on DFS even though our radios are grandfathered. It is sad they never updated their Atlas platform. -Matt On Feb 11, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: That was exactly my point, Patrick. With the PMP products they flip flopped. They started making PTP products - what's to say they won't do the same thing to those who have these deployed? Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice... Also, how is the support with the PTP products? I have been listening in on all licensed PTP equipment but I am not even around to shopping. All the backhauls are currently 5GHz which I would like to replace over the coming months, years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). There is no stopping Trango. We will continue to peck
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Matt, there is no DFS detector in the Atlas5010. It was not a firmware issue, but rather a hardware limitation. That is why we released the 5055, aka the TrangoLINK-45 which is essentially the same product as the Atlas but has DFS support for the UNII band. If you bought the 5010s before the FCC cutoff in 2006 then you are legally allowed to use the 5.2/5.3 GHz band with the 5010. The old firmware for the 5010s that operates without DFS is available on our archived FW download page. Promotions will come and go. I am pretty sure all the vendors have engaged in promos at one time or another where the promo price is equivalent to, or better than standard volume based pricing. In your case it may have been unfurtunate timing where the promos came out shortly after the volume purchase. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Trango has a way of destroying their reputation even when their product is not at fault. We've had them offer us volume discounts only later to see the same price offered without a volume requirement as part of a promotion. I can't get a modern firmware for our older 5010s that operate in 5.2 because the new firmware turns on DFS even though our radios are grandfathered. It is sad they never updated their Atlas platform. -Matt On Feb 11, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: That was exactly my point, Patrick. With the PMP products they flip flopped. They started making PTP products - what's to say they won't do the same thing to those who have these deployed? Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice... Also, how is the support with the PTP products? I have been listening in on all licensed PTP equipment but I am not even around to shopping. All the backhauls are currently 5GHz which I would like to replace over the coming months, years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:29 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Can I ask an honest question about the PTP licensed gear? Tell us about the tech support department. Is it just Timo (sp?)? How many other employees are there for support? Randy John Seaman wrote: And people wonder why I dont post to the list often. There are some old horror stories out there but far more success stories of succesful WISPs using Trango equipment. Josh, I am sorry to hear you had a bad experience in the past. By the way we are currently having a promotion on the 5830s.. with some of the best pricing we have ever offered on this product. If anyone is interested in the promos let us or CTI know. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link So when you build a Trango backhaul network you hope they don't ruin you like they did for us trying to do use 700 dollar CPEs. I have not used Trango backhaul products due to the horrible experience, cost and support for the Acess 5800 and 5830 products. On 2/11/09, John Seaman j...@trangosys.com wrote: Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I will say this, I found this interesting just this morning... I have many AN50 links. They work very very well. Love this product very much myself. The AN80 is the replacement product. A WISP bought 24 radios (12 links) of AN80s expecting them to be equally as good if not better. The price was definitely better. Time and time again these things caused problems and were replaced with Orthogon and the problem was solved. Just thought I would share that. Just because of that one company's horror story I doubt very much I will ever investigate using that product. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Josh, No one will disagree that the Flip-Flopping price structures with the Trango PTMP lines was very annoying. And to be honest, the industry and I know it cost Trango customers. But there is a flip side, to identify value. For example, 99.9% of my original installed Trango gear (starting in 2001) is still in service, generating Revenue, and surviving interference better than any new product line on the market that I have used, for my application and circumstances. Many early generation WISPs (sub yr 2000) argued a likely need to change/upgrade technology every 3 years, and a new WISP should plan for such. I'm going on 8 years now, without the need to replace gear. And I charge a lot more than $50/month. That is an amazing value proposition, that I never predicted when I made the decission to buy into the Trango solution. I underestimated what it would take to make sales, and I did not meet my benchmarks as planned. I'm just glad I didn't underestimate the need to use Trango, because if I had to replace gear in 3 years, I would have been out of business today. I attribute the longevity of their product line to fine quality components internally and good engineering. I believe Trango is putting the same heart into their new PTP lines, and I do not doubt for a second that the product line will have the longevity that my business financial model requires. Again, I'm not suggesting which product you should buy, or which will have better value for you. You should evaluate all PTP options. But I am suggesting that you don't sell yourself short, by making the decission for the wrong reasons. With PtMP system, you are locking yourself into a platform for future buying decissions. With PTP you are not. You can change buying patterns link by links, as you see fit, without abandoning previous investments.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link That was exactly my point, Patrick. With the PMP products they flip flopped. They started making PTP products - what's to say they won't do the same thing to those who have these deployed? Fool me one shame on you, fool me twice... Also, how is the support with the PTP products? I have been listening in on all licensed PTP equipment but I am not even around to shopping. All the backhauls are currently 5GHz which I would like to replace over the coming months, years. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: From my viewpoint, I can say that I know several WISPs of late that might not have touched Trango PMP products (mostly due to perceptions of waffling company policies that forced price fluctuations and random changes), but love the Trango PTP products. I think it is a fair assessment that Trango's entry in to the PTP space with as a value play has wildly upset the apple cart of established players who historically counted on massive margin. I've been certainly impressed with the rapid uptake of the product across verticals, which is not an easy feat. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi Randy, There are three people in our support group..plus me and Ray. We're a small sales and upport team.. but that's how a company stays profitable in tough economic times. We'll add support resources as needed and as the installed base grows. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
On Feb 11, 2009, at 5:02 PM, John Seaman wrote: Matt, there is no DFS detector in the Atlas5010. It was not a firmware issue, but rather a hardware limitation. That is why we released the 5055, aka the TrangoLINK-45 which is essentially the same product as the Atlas but has DFS support for the UNII band. If you bought the 5010s before the FCC cutoff in 2006 then you are legally allowed to use the 5.2/5.3 GHz band with the 5010. The old firmware for the 5010s that operates without DFS is available on our archived FW download page. I don't want the old firmware... I have that. I want the new firmware, but that disables 5.2 on my 5010s. Trango should provide modern firmware that properly handles grandfathered radios. Promotions will come and go. I am pretty sure all the vendors have engaged in promos at one time or another where the promo price is equivalent to, or better than standard volume based pricing. In your case it may have been unfurtunate timing where the promos came out shortly after the volume purchase. I agree the timing was unfortunate. We have never bought another Trango radio since that time, so who really suffered in this case? -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
their higher margins for 23Ghz carrier level products. They have a way to UNDERCUT Trango, that Trango can do nothing about, IF they want to, as it sits today. Strategically, IF I were Trango, simply as a defensive move, I'd want to have a 24Ghz product, also. Ideally, 24Ghz would be best for a small footprint, easy to install, APEX model. Thats what WISPs would want most for 24Ghz. Everything would be about saving money and low cost, including installation. Which is what I'd recommend. BUT... If financial investment justification was not there, because the market potential is doubted, it would be VERY COST effective, to just add another ODU to the existing Giga Platform. Lastly, don't just ask this list, that is mostly rural providers. Go ask Tower Stream who's doing markets like NY and LA. Ask them how mnay custoemrs they have within 1.5 miles of their cell sites. Then ask them, if they are running out of spectrum. But 24Ghz is not jsut for URban markets. Its also for the building across the street. You get 23Ghz-18Ghz to the taller building, and then extend the service to the shorter neighbor building across the street via 24Ghz. WISPS are becomming PTP. We need gear for EVERY OUNCE of spectrum that is out there for our use. Truth is... What I REALLY want is a 100mbps 24Ghz PTP radio for $3k, so it can be afforded for MASS scale. But 24Ghz for $7-8K would be a really good start. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, without compromise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
, IF I were Dragonwave, I would IMMEDIATELY lower the price of their 24Ghz line, to OUTPRICE the Trango 23Ghz. And justify the lower cost based on lower power and shorter range, without compromising their higher margins for 23Ghz carrier level products. They have a way to UNDERCUT Trango, that Trango can do nothing about, IF they want to, as it sits today. Strategically, IF I were Trango, simply as a defensive move, I'd want to have a 24Ghz product, also. Ideally, 24Ghz would be best for a small footprint, easy to install, APEX model. Thats what WISPs would want most for 24Ghz. Everything would be about saving money and low cost, including installation. Which is what I'd recommend. BUT... If financial investment justification was not there, because the market potential is doubted, it would be VERY COST effective, to just add another ODU to the existing Giga Platform. Lastly, don't just ask this list, that is mostly rural providers. Go ask Tower Stream who's doing markets like NY and LA. Ask them how mnay custoemrs they have within 1.5 miles of their cell sites. Then ask them, if they are running out of spectrum. But 24Ghz is not jsut for URban markets. Its also for the building across the street. You get 23Ghz-18Ghz to the taller building, and then extend the service to the shorter neighbor building across the street via 24Ghz. WISPS are becomming PTP. We need gear for EVERY OUNCE of spectrum that is out there for our use. Truth is... What I REALLY want is a 100mbps 24Ghz PTP radio for $3k, so it can be afforded for MASS scale. But 24Ghz for $7-8K would be a really good start. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know if that is technically acheivable or not, without compromise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
of the savings back into their own pocket instead of the WISP's. Although the WISP would likely save some. Strategically, IF I were Dragonwave, I would IMMEDIATELY lower the price of their 24Ghz line, to OUTPRICE the Trango 23Ghz. And justify the lower cost based on lower power and shorter range, without compromising their higher margins for 23Ghz carrier level products. They have a way to UNDERCUT Trango, that Trango can do nothing about, IF they want to, as it sits today. Strategically, IF I were Trango, simply as a defensive move, I'd want to have a 24Ghz product, also. Ideally, 24Ghz would be best for a small footprint, easy to install, APEX model. Thats what WISPs would want most for 24Ghz. Everything would be about saving money and low cost, including installation. Which is what I'd recommend. BUT... If financial investment justification was not there, because the market potential is doubted, it would be VERY COST effective, to just add another ODU to the existing Giga Platform. Lastly, don't just ask this list, that is mostly rural providers. Go ask Tower Stream who's doing markets like NY and LA. Ask them how mnay custoemrs they have within 1.5 miles of their cell sites. Then ask them, if they are running out of spectrum. But 24Ghz is not jsut for URban markets. Its also for the building across the street. You get 23Ghz-18Ghz to the taller building, and then extend the service to the shorter neighbor building across the street via 24Ghz. WISPS are becomming PTP. We need gear for EVERY OUNCE of spectrum that is out there for our use. Truth is... What I REALLY want is a 100mbps 24Ghz PTP radio for $3k, so it can be afforded for MASS scale. But 24Ghz for $7-8K would be a really good start. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Seaman j...@trangosys.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Thanks Tom, we're not convinced about 24 GHz... the power limits are very low. We are looking at it but we're trying to size up the 24 GHz market before we make the commitment to pursue this frequency. I do know that in Canada there is good demnand for 24 GHz (since licensing fees are extremely high) .. but here is the US, the licensing costs are so low that most users prefer to go with licensed band.. at least that has been our perception of the market so far. I would like to hear others view points on 24 GHz. John -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:13 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link The only reason we don't attach it here in the factory is to enable the user the option to use a waveguide adapter (instead of the transition) in the event they want to connect the ODU to piece of flex waveguide so that it can be used with any dish with a waveguide flange. Good feature for those who want to upgrade pre-existing installed slower DS-3 type radios with new state of the art IP, using already installed dish. As someone who has now used both the Trango and Dragonwave products, I can honestly say they are both very fine products, and a buyer couldn't possibly go wrong with either purchase decission. But, we have reached a point where a buyer does not HAVE TO accept a significant technical compromise anymore to gain a better price. I will not get into a debate of which product is better, as there are very tiny differences that might be more or less preferable dependant on the buyer's application or personal preference. But I will say, Dragonwave will lose sales, if they try to keep their price higher, and at minimum are at a stage requiring price matching. There was a time that Dragonwave was considered the premium product, but today there are many buyers that would argue the opposite that Trango is now becomming the more premium product. I'll leave that decission to the prospective buyer. What I'd like to see from Dragonwave, is for them to give their distributors better prices consistently by default, so they can be more competitive. I think their quality resellers deserve that assistance, and the markup they add to generate sales. What I'd like to see from Trango, is for them to embrace 24Ghz, and add it to their collection. There is a Huge market for this, to empower WISPs to close deals and isntall links without delay. (even if they were converted to 23Ghz licensed down the road). What would be really cool, is a 23Ghz unit that was wideband and supported 23Ghz through 24Ghz, where software implemented the neccessary power reductions at 24Ghz unlicensed to keep it legal, when the channel was selected. I do not know
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Brad, I'm not a WISP'er anymore... sales manager over here at 3-dB. I still get out though and install gear for people... :-) I am out of the office more though than I care to be... too many jobs stacking up! Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:07 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hmmm...sure sounds like you have an inordinate amount of service work on your linksgrin I'm working on a response to your other post with a line item side by side comparison between Dragonwave and Trango, but it will probably be tomorrow before it's posted. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:43 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I have to run out into the field to work on a Bridgewave link (people pay good money for that :-). I'll answer this tonight. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a comparable speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the benefits of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Comments inline Before anyone reads further... I have the upmost respect for John... and I honestly believe Trango has done many things right over the years. I'll also be the first one to say that the Trango PTP products will work... but to me the price difference isn't enough to switch to Trango. I'd also like to point out... I only defend Dragonwave because I think it is the best product on the market from my personal experience. I've installed Trango, Dragonwave, Harris, Ceragon, and PCOM gear... and have had the best experiences with Dragonwave. I only preach what I know works, from my own personal experience. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of John Seaman Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 1:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Just to clear up a few points... Daniel's claim of number of Trango's units shipped is WAY off. He has no way of knowing what we have shipped. Trango is a private company and as such we dont divulge specifics, but I can tell you that the actual shipments are FAR greater and a very significant portion of the links shipped have gone outside the US and as such you wont see them show up in the FCC database. Trango being a private company is the number one reason people don't know what is going on over there John. You can claim your profitable all day long and selling thousands of links... but saying most of them have shipped overseas doesn't help anything. So what we can do is look at the FCC database... and if you do that anyone can clearly see there isn't too much of the stuff out there. Our overall numbers of links shipped may be small compared to Ceragon and the big guys but the product has gained widespread acceptance, traction and is quickly gaining momentum. Why else would our competitors be acting so nervous? Are they really? Yes Dragonwave is becoming more competitive in their pricing... but other than that I haven't seen moves by any other vendor that shows nervousness. Personally I've heard more trepidation over Motorola entering the market. On a side note... I just got a lot of the pre-release documents on their product line... man does it look promising... and surprisingly at a reasonable price point (meaning in the same space as Dragonwave/Trango... of course who knows until the final pricing is announced) Trango has firmly established itself with TrangoLINK-GIGA and APEX in the WISP market. But that is a very very limited market... Now we are also gaining excellent traction with counties, states, cities, utilities, as well as the US Military... These entities traditionally deploylargest quantities of wireless backhaul sytems, compared to mobile operators who deploy by far the most. (although most mobile operator deployments are still strictly TDM). I'd love to hear some case studies and whitepapers... I do know of one local city that purchased a few... so I'm not saying your wrong... but I'd for one like to hear more. BTW... I'd argue the point that most mobile operators are strictly TDM... many are doing Psudeowire solutions now. There is no stopping Trango. Not to be a smart ass here... but is that way happened with the OFDM PTMP product line? I think it's interesting that the bread and butter portion of the business is bleeding like crazy... I'm seeing WISP after WISP ditch their Trango gear for Motorola/Mikrotik/3.65... can the PTP business sustain Trango? We will continue to peck away at Dragonwave's marketshare and gradually we'll be taking larger and larger portions of it. Not going to argue the fact that you have taken some of Dragonwave's market share... but the latest numbers I have seen still put Dragonwave leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else. Dragonwave did not ship $50mil last year, it was closer to $40Mil - and by the way they are losing tons of money quarter-after-quarter. Trango is, and has always been profitable. Well you can read Dragonwave's latest financial statement here... http://www.dragonwaveinc.com/docs/corporate/DragonWave_Financial%20Statement s_Nov30%202008.pdf So it does say gross sales was at 30 million CDN for three quarters... Dragonwave operates on a weird year end. Anyways I used the 50 mil from what I was told off the cuff by a Dragonwave rep... anyways its probably fair to say it is somewhere between 40 and 50 mil... I can't do that for Trango... so how does anyone know how profitable you guys are? I'd also argue that Dragonwave appears to be spending money investing in the company... and unlike Trango... I haven't heard of them laying off batches of employees. Anyways they gotta be doing something right... and I don't think anyone is questioning they will be around 5 years from now... yet many (not just me) have doubts about Trango... I actually don't have a side-by side comparison of the two products handy. We
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Tom, you need a hobby. :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:47 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well, I'll add a couple comments, before the group chimes in I agree, that in MORE cases, people will chose 23Ghz licensed over 24Ghz. But that does not negate the 24Ghz model potential. For 24Ghz, 2ft Dish configurations are going to be MUCH more effective. And as well, Lower modulations/speeds will likely occur per link, in order to reach further distances. But doing 1.5 miles at 99.999% is doable with 24Ghz at 100mbps, with multiple channels to choose from. (mine was 1.7 miles long). I'd argue that 24Ghz has more channel selections than 2.4Ghz, 900Mhz, and much larger ability for spectrum reuse. 24Ghz is an ideal choice for getting a LARGE number of PTP links into a small area. This is the fact WISPS are running out of Last Mile spectrum. The demand for higher speeds has come fast. WISPs need to start migrating profitable high capacity customers OFF of their 5.8Ghz PtMP sectors, so the capacity is available for their lower capacity higher volume target subscriber base. For many, there is no longer an option to add 5.8G APs, growth instead is acheived by moving large cpacity customers to new High capacity technologies, which today is only possible w/ PTP. The first thing to understand is There is absolutely a market and demand for increasing capacity to customers within a 1.5 mile radius. ANY provider in a URBAN or SUBURBAN market will have this demand. For example, in DC its only like 3 miles side to side, and narrow beamwidth links are needed. 60-80Ghz promised a solution, but never delivered. Low cost links are limited to .5 miles, and EXPENSIVE (3X cost of Horizon) gear can extend up to 2 miles. The second thing to understand is... Why would we choose 24Ghz over 23Ghz?. The questions to ask are... and answers following 1) Do we need licensed protection, in all cases? And the answer is No, we have 200 tenant buildings served with Unlicenced 5.x today. 2) Will WISPs pay $10K for an Unlicensed solution, for a unique solution if they need to? The answer is yes. People have been paying $10k for Redline and Orthogon PTPs for years. 3) Will WISPs do everything possible to save a dollar? The answer is yes, we have been trained to do that since birth :-) 4) Is $3000 License Costs a signficant amount to save for a WISP? Absolutely, yes. $3000 would buy 1-2 Trango TLink45s, dependant on Promos. Remember most WISPs are still funded through cash flow. $3000 is a small fortune. This comment is with the premise that 24Ghz product would be sold for equal or less money than its 23Ghz licensed counterpart. Trango nor WISPs have any benefit to giving our hard earned money to the FCC and licensing consultants. Take note that based on current Trango prices, a $3000 savings is like a 25% savings of the total link. Many buyers have chosen Trango over their previous vendor Dragonwave for as little as a 10% savings. What would a WISP do to save 25%? 5) Note... Grant money will usually buy equipment not licenses.. Leasing companies will approve leases for Equipment, and rarely for licenses taht can't be reposessed. A WISP could buy more radios with grant/lease money, if they were not limited by cash flow constraints to buy licenses. 6) Are there any reasons 24Ghz might be favored over 23Ghz? Answer yes. The very nature of WISPs are to deploy fast. Licensing takes advanced planning and often adds 2 months to the process. I will say that 50% of the sales our company made to date were because we could get a link to the customer Sooner. We didn't need to plan, we just executed action. It is a convenience factor. 24Ghz offers A) The ability to STOCK inventory on hand, without knowing in advance where it will be used. B) The ability to immediately place orders, without waiting for Freq Coords. C) 23Ghz does not allow temporary install after Freq Coord and application stage, and are not legally allowed to be deployed until after the license is actually granted, and I beleive has an additional step (by FCC to determine channel availabilty) beyond the initial end user ordered Freq coord, before the FCC can grant the license. D) The ability to immediately go install. ONLY thing needing done before installing, is a quick 5 minute path calc, with large odds success will be reached. 7) Does 24Ghz scale? Answer is yes. 24Ghz will scale significantly higher than 23Ghz. Because 24Ghz is lower tx power (about 20 db lower), it will allow a much larger number of radios to be installed within a given region without interference. A 23Ghz licenses is not guaranteed
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
CTI has a special on them right now. http://www.cticonnect.com/ David Blood -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Isn't that the purpose of a public forum? :) Travis Microserv Jeff Ehman wrote: All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave "performance is much better"? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is "close" when you mention pricing between the two products? "Close" is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone at 630-344-1586. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hello Daniel, Well, that is disappointing as I was hoping for more substance from you to back up your statements regarding close in price and performance much better. Instead you've chosen to throw a stone at a competing product and run the other way. I guess we'll have to chalk up your comments as all show and no go... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:49 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave performance is much better? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is close when you mention pricing between the two products? Close is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible
Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link
Hi, I have a better idea someone compile a simple side-by-side comparison of the Dragonwave vs. Trango 18ghz radios. List all the benefits of each radio, and then also list the current price for a "comparable" speed for each. I'm not familiar with the current Dragonwave product, so I will only list the "benefits" of the Trango APEX system (of which I currently have 3 running as our main backbone backhauls): (1) Radio mounted signal display for alignment (2) Optional fiber port (only have to buy the fiber module to plug in) (3) Various channel sizes (10, 20, 28, 40, 50, 80 mhz wide) (4) up to +20db power output (5) Jumbo packets via GigE (6) PoE (-48v) (7) In-band or out-of-band management (8) Separate GigE port for management (9) Rapid Port Shutdown (10) 1+1 redundancy (using a single antenna) (11) Dual power supplies (either PoE port can supply the power) (12) 2 year warranty standard (can be upgraded to 3 year, overnight replacement for $2,000 per link) (13) Price (currently $9,995 with 2ft dishes and frequency coordination. FCC fees are about $1,300 extra). Travis Microserv 3-dB Networks wrote: I'm going to go with Jeff on this one... there has been multiple threads on this topic... I think it has been beat to death. If you want to talk about it offlist I'd be happy to. As far as the price difference... I'd be happy to quote the Dragonwave and let you compare it to the published Trango deals... but my personal opinion is that you are not paying a premium for the Dragonwave name... compared to what I would consider the benefits. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Ehman Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link All, When comparing exactly apples to apples, there is about a 10-20% premium for a Dragonwave product. There are plenty of threads on this topic. I would be happy to grab a bunch for you so hit me off off-list. It really depends on your application for which product you would like to go with. I would be more than happy to walk you through everything. I try to refrain from stating opinions in a public forum. -Jeff -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:36 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Hello Daniel, Can you elaborate in what way the Dragonwave "performance is much better"? Do you have a comparison chart you can share with us explaining how a Dragonwave stacks up against competing products. Namely Trango in this case. Exactly how close is "close" when you mention pricing between the two products? "Close" is a relative term don't you agree? So, are we talking $5, $50, $500, $5000? Look forward to your responses. Thank you, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:25 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link Well... I'd be happy to quote you a Dragonwave link... I think you will be surprised how close it comes to the Trango pricing... and I think the performance is much better (I don't want to rehash that whole thread). We also will take care of all of the licensing work for you. Hit me offlist if you like. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Niemantsverdriet Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Need 18ghz link I am looking for a good place to get an 18ghz link, where do you guys suggest. Ideally the company would also procure the licence for us. I am thinking I want the Trango APEX because of it cost / performance. So if anybody has suggestions on a good company to use I am all ears! Thanks, _ /-\ ndrew --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless A
