Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones of the whole concept of Web Standards? Thus, you can have Accessibility, and be an Accessibility specialist, without Standards (as unlikely as that might be), but you cannot profess Standards expertise without having good knowledge of Accessibility. Accessibility is one major component of the holistic philosophy that is Web Standards. I shall now sit under the bodhi tree and ponder if there really is a universe outside Standards. - Original Message - From: Mordechai Peller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards Natalie Buxton wrote: While Web Standards and Accessibility are often practiced together, they are not entirely the same speciallty. While that's technically true, it's not a coincidence that those interested in Standards are also interested in accessibility: the two complements each other very naturally. Having a good understanding of both is excellent, but I think Accessibillity will get picked up faster, due to the fines you mention. To promote accessibility without Standards is almost foolhardy. Though I'm sure there are exceptions, they would be exceptions which prove the rule. Of course, working within Web Standards greatly enhances accessibility options. Hence the marriage. If anything, accessibility needs Standards more than Standards needs accessibility. Also, improved accessibility is one of the selling points of Standards. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Careers in web standards
My previous employer has advertised for someone to fill my old job and apparently it's not looking hopeful. They want someone who can hit the ground running but I think it really is a case of what Kay was saying - you have to expect to train people. But the job description was based around my own role (which was based on my own skills) so it's a little difficult! When I applied for my own job(!) only 6 people applied and only 1 other besides myself qualified for an interview. Unfortunately there is no one there who could train the new person. Being a (Western Australian) State Govt dept they are aware of the need to work to standards and meet accessibility guidelines, however there was only my supervisor and myself in our section and I was the nuts and bolts person. Now I am operating my own business with the occasional need to outsource, I'm in the same boat myself. And yes, I don't believe it is possible to say you are meeting web standards if you don't meet accessibility guidelines too. Accessibility is a sub-set of web standards. (And the degree to which you meet them is another story altogether! I think the point is that you do the best within your capabilities. Accessibility is not something to be learned overnight.) Vicki. :-) On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:12:20 +1100, Henry Tapia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't Accessibility one of the cornerstones of the whole concept of Web Standards? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy. He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another client. How do you convince your client to spend a little more onthe design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running around with the idea IE will fix all. Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors do. The Google results : http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N Remarks, ideas - toughts ? .K
RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof Rutten Sent: Thursday, 25 November 2004 8:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument. Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy. He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another client. How do you convince your client to spend a little more onthe design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running around with the idea IE will fix all. Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors do. The Google results : http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N Remarks, ideas - toughts ? .K
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Kristof Rutten wrote: How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Remember that most clients don't care a jot about accessibility and web standards. Sell them on the business benefits. However if the clients is more interested in cost than quality, there will always be somebody willing to do the job for less. Rather than blame the clients, you probably need to rethink the market you're aiming at. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Yeah, OK. But nothing more. Just the flash items. Not a single product on his site. The prospect is a large sound light reseller. He needs to make a living out of DJ's, Clubs, .. Try to search for one of his specifics on google. Don't you think it's odd that a site with a gazillion products just had 15 links on a search engine? And Google is the most active of'm all. .K From: Brett Walsh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 10:40To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument. Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kristof RuttenSent: Thursday, 25 November 2004 8:26 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument. Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy. He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another client. How do you convince your client to spend a little more onthe design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running around with the idea IE will fix all. Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors do. The Google results : http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N Remarks, ideas - toughts ? .K
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts. Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards? Why not just use them? Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create a fast-loading, accessible and usable site. Your client will be happy with the results, and word will spread. They won't know WHY your sites load quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines than your competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and tell everybody they know. I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards. They are self-selling, even if the buyer doesn't understand it. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...
Screenreaders have loads of useful features built in like the ability to bring up a list of all the headings on a page and then jump to that heading. However the vast majority of screenreader users don't use these advanced features. The same goes with websites. Just because you add things in like skip nav and access keys, you shouldn't automatically assume that everybody will use them, or even know what they mean. I don't necessarily think it's a naming issue, although as a number of people have pointed out, JAWS pronounces content differently depending on context. I think it's just that, while in the web accessibility community skip nav is a recognised convention, it hasn't seeped into the screenreader community at large yet. It's a bit like adding a home link to the logo of a site. Most web designers do this by default, but even now, there are loads of web users who are unaware of this convention. If a more experienced web user was to show then this convention they would no doubt start using it. However generally web users stick to their own patters until there is a compelling need to deviate from them. Maybe we should start putting a para about skip nav links in our accessibility statements along with a description of our accesskeys, compliance goals etc. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
I totally agree. But then it comes to budget. And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the explaining to do. It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this just Belgium... .K -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 11:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument. As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts. Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards? Why not just use them? Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create a fast-loading, accessible and usable site. Your client will be happy with the results, and word will spread. They won't know WHY your sites load quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines than your competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and tell everybody they know. I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards. They are self-selling, even if the buyer doesn't understand it. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:06:51 +0100, Kristof Rutten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree. But then it comes to budget. And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the explaining to do. I don't really get why your quote should be higher and don't really like that thought as it promotes the idea that standards are hard. If you are proficient with your art, having an average couple of validation errors per page, because of a typo or an unclosed li doesn't really slow things down or raise the project's quote much more than parse errors do when a good programmer is coding PHP or ASP or whatever. -- Manuel a veces :) a veces :( pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 ¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.
I have Basilisk installed, but it is of no use for web page testing, as PPC applications do not run on it, no matter the OS version: the most modern browsers I found in 68k version are IE 4.0, Netscape 4.05 and iCab 2.95. Until I find the time to install PearPC, I try to simulate Safari testing with Konqueror on Linux (actually a Knoppix live CD), as they should have the same KHTML rendering engine. Has anybody compared the real Safari with Konqueror ? Mordechai Peller wrote: As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also working in Safari, IE, on the other hand (surprise, surprise) isn't quite such a sure thing. Now, while I'm not ready to go out and by a Mac, does anyone have any experience with emulators under either WinXP or (x86 based) Linux? I've heard of SoftMac, Basilisk II, and PearPC, but I don't know much about them, so maybe someone can fill in the gaps. PearPC can emulate a PowerPC and run up to OS X, but at 1/40 of the speed (that figure might be out of date). The other two emulate the 68K and can run up to OS 8.1, but how fast? Up to OS 7.5.5 is available free from Apple; is this enough for IE5? Basilisk II can run under several OS's, including WinXP and Linux, but which is faster? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] begin:vcard fn:Dejan Kozina n:Kozina;Dejan org:Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio adr:;;Dolina 346;Dolina;TS;I-34018;Italy email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+39 348 7355 225 tel;fax:+39 040 228 436 tel;home:+39 040 228 436 tel;cell:+39 348 7355 225 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.kozina.com/ version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once maintenance costs were factored in. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 11/25/2004 10:06 AM Kristof Rutten said the following: I totally agree. But then it comes to budget. And your clients ASKS why your offer is quoted higher. Then you have the explaining to do. It seems like reason isn't among most of the buyers lately ;) Or is this just Belgium... .K -Original Message- From: john [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 25 november 2004 11:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument. As I'm just now starting to use web standards in my business, and haven't had to yet make the sales pitch, these are just some random thoughts. Why would we have to sell the idea of web standards? Why not just use them? Sell your services like usual, and use all the tools you know to create a fast-loading, accessible and usable site. Your client will be happy with the results, and word will spread. They won't know WHY your sites load quicker, get more visitors, and rank higher in search engines than your competitors, but you can be sure they'll be happy for it and tell everybody they know. I don't see that anybody has to sell web standards. They are self-selling, even if the buyer doesn't understand it. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
http://www.w3.org/WAI/ ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter on 11/25/2004 10:11 AM Tim Burgan said the following: Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
on 11/25/2004 10:18 AM Bert Doorn said the following: It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text... heh...I didn't notice that myself, since I have HTML turned off in Thunderbird. ~john _ Dr. Zeus Web Development http://www.DrZeus.net content without clutter ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:40:10 +1100, Brett Walsh wrote: Searching for s2store in google returns it as the first result.? No, the point is that there are no descriptions to entice the searcher to click on that link and that of the many, many pages on the site (have a look - its a fair sized site) there are only a handful of pages on the site. Either Google has only just found the site or it isnt terribly spider friendly; the kiss of death for an e-commerce store! Lea -- Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ Search Engine Optimisation, Usability, Information Architecture, Web Design Brisbane, Australia ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac IE (and Safari, too) testing on a PC and emulator info.
On 25 Nov 2004, at 5:48 PM, Mordechai Peller wrote: As the only proper way to test to to actually run the software (screen shots don't help much with JavaScript), and while any standards based code which works properly in Firefox stands a good chance of also working in Safari, IE, on the other hand (surprise, surprise) isn't quite such a sure thing. Now, while I'm not ready to go out and by a Mac, does anyone have any experience with emulators under either WinXP or (x86 based) Linux? I know (as a long-time user) that Macs have that price-tag reputation, but until someone comes up with a workable equivalent to Virtual PC in the reverse direction, why wouldn't you buy a 2nd hand iMac for $200-$300? That's as much as a half-decent software program's going to cost, and you've got a machine that will run all the browsers you want. If it comes with any flavour of OS9, upgrades to 9.2.2 are free (well, if you discount the cost of a couple of 100MB downloads); OSX is your only other expense - and you may well find a machine with that pre-installed... Hmm... moving OT, methinks. Apologies. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Try the W3C as a good starting point: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/ Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org Southbank, Melbourne Australia Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Hi, == in English e.g.: http://www.gawds.org/ http://www.washington.edu/doit/Resources/accessweb.html http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/currents/spring02/slatin.html http://www.barrierfree.ca/index.htm - Original Message - From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
and also: http://www.webaim.org/ and general: http://aware.hwg.org/sites/ greetings johannes - Original Message - From: Tim Burgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [WSG] Web Standards Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ gives you a good little overview. Patrick H. Lauke -Original Message- From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 25 November 2004 10:11 To: [WSG] Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
This is brilliant! Thanks for the kick-start everyone. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
john wrote: I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once maintenance costs were factored in. The problem isn't web standards or not web standards, the problem seems to be quality vs cost. If you do quality work it takes longer and so costs more. If you do a bodge job it gets done quicker and so costs less. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] User Interface Design Standards Template
Some useful links for general UI Design: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/index.html http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/ http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnwue/html/welcome.asp I haven't taken the time (yet) to go through some of these to understand how useful much of this is for web design and also how specific they are. There are also a few more links here: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/references.html Hope that helps, Mark On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:29:18 -0500, Marilyn Langfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but ATT has an online style guide here: http://www.att.com/style/ I haven't thoroughly investigated it, but it was recommended at an accessibility showcase I attended recently, as an example of how to ensure that standards (accessibility in that case) don't get diluted over time. It takes the concept of a corporate identity manual into webspace. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile On Nov 24, 2004, at 11:14 PM, Sunena wrote: Hi, I have recently joined this group and am looking for a sample UI Design Standards document. I need to create a design standard document. Can anyone provide information on this? Thanks Sunena Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -- www.lynchconsulting.com.au ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since most beginning web designers (accent on designers) probably try Dreamweaver or GoLive first, when learning web design. http://tinyurl.com/4jo25 free registration required, so I'm also quoting the post. Here's the comment, which is a little off topic of the thread, in answer to an earlier comment by Ron which is quoted: JohnDonaldson - 4:42pm Nov 22, 04 PST (#18 of 21) Edited: 22-Nov-2004 at 04:43pm Ron, it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors? Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present something in a visual editor. Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job. There are certainly tools in both which try to put back together, or hide, the separation which lies at the heart of the structural markup/CSS formatting model. If you actually understand the way they are designed to separate, on the other hand, GoLive provides pretty good tools for creating your CSS. John Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
Ron, it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors? The way I read this, Macromedia Adobe are actually selling something that is by its very nature defective. I feel so fine :) -- Manuel a veces :) a veces :( pero siempre trabajando duro para Simplelógica: apariencia, experiencia y comunicación en la web. http://simplelogica.net # (+34) 985 22 12 65 ¡Ah! y escribiendo en Logicola: http://simplelogica.net/logicola/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
I've just finished some interactive tutorials for content developers which may be of use. It only covers the basics but does get the point across (I think). http://www.websemantics.co.uk/workshop/sessions/session2/ Also you might need greater detail on forms: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/form_guidelines/ hope it helps. mike 2k:)2 -Original Message- From: Tim Burgan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thu 11/25/2004 10:11 AM To: [WSG] Web Standards Group Cc: Subject:[WSG] Learning to design Accessibility Hi, I've done freelance work using standards for a few years, but now due to study I'm looking to get some casual web design work in Adelaide. I know and use standards, and I understand the need for accessibility, but I don't know how or what need to be implemented to meet accessibility needs. Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? Thanks for your time. Tim -- Tim Burgan. Website Development Graphic Design E [EMAIL PROTECTED] W www.timburgan.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Bert Doorn wrote: It's also frustrating to get emails with microscopic text (accessibility issue). Text/plain please? Both Thunderbird and Firefox allow you to set the minimum font size. Accessibility fighting back! As far as your dilemma goes - don't lower your standards (pun intended) for the sake of getting work. If you can't convince them, let them go. A wise and business savvy uncle of mine once told me that in business there are three factors: speed, cost, and quality. At best, you can only get 2 out of 3. Maybe they will come back when the site they get doesn't do what they need it to. I could never understand why there never seems to be enough time to do something right, but always time to do it over. If the lack of traffic from Google is one of their main reasons to redo the site, tell them (in broad terms) why you think Google doesn't like the site. Spiders have very strict dietary requirement: key word seasoned content mixed with links. You don't feed the right, they'll avoid you and rarely come for dinner. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Link definition
All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the underlineing of links standard knowledge? Angus MacKinnon MacKinnon Crest Saying Latin - Audentes Fortuna Juvat English - Fortune Assists The Daring Web page: http://members.shaw.ca/dabneyadfm Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. http://www.choroideremia.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
The point is only valid within their (Adobe's) current mode of thinking - that Style Sheets are created on the fly as designers muck about trying things within the visual editor, saving as they go. It may be done, but surely the only way to design is to produce your designs off-line, produce your templates and off you go? If forcing designers to think through their designs before hacking them out on a computer is a by-product of visual editors creating CSS, I'm all for it! Sounds to me like the writer doesn't understand CSS at all. On Friday, 26 November 2004 1:51 AM, Marilyn Langfeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking through the Adobe GoLive forum and came across this comment, which I thought would be of interest. I'm not trying to provoke a response here, but I think it's important to hear the perspective of an employee at Adobe who often helps people with CSS questions on their forum. And since most beginning web designers (accent on designers) probably try Dreamweaver or GoLive first, when learning web design. http://tinyurl.com/4jo25 free registration required, so I'm also quoting the post. Here's the comment, which is a little off topic of the thread, in answer to an earlier comment by Ron which is quoted: JohnDonaldson - 4:42pm Nov 22, 04 PST (#18 of 21) Edited: 22-Nov-2004 at 04:43pm Ron, it is clear to me that the individuals who designed this application were/are not hard core CSS scripters. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors? Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present something in a visual editor. Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job. There are certainly tools in both which try to put back together, or hide, the separation which lies at the heart of the structural markup/CSS formatting model. If you actually understand the way they are designed to separate, on the other hand, GoLive provides pretty good tools for creating your CSS. John Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1.301.598.3300 business phone +1.301.598.0532 fax +1.202.390.8847 mobile ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Link definition
The Man With His Guide Dog At The Tent Store wrote: All this taalk about web standards got me thinking about the underling of links. As I understand it is that a person can turn on or off the underlineing of links via there browser options. If a person turns off the underlineing of links how would a web designer highlight a link? Is the underlineing of links standard knowledge? If a user disables a default setting, then it's not really up to the designer to make up for that (if that was your question). And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on context. E.g. in a navigation bar that's in a traditional location (top or left), users would more likely than not come to expect text to be links, particularly if it's arranged in a list. In this case I'd posit that underlines are not needed. Patrick H. Lauke -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Link definition
And yes, I'd say it's common knowledge with (sighted) users that an underline signifies a link. That's why it's not recommended to use underlined styles for other texts. Of course, underlines are not the only clue as to what is and isn't a link. In most cases, it depends on context. E.g. in a navigation bar that's in a traditional location (top or left), users would more likely than not come to expect text to be links, particularly if it's arranged in a list. In this case I'd posit that underlines are not needed. The question underlining of links standard knowledge? is more of a usability question rather than a web standards question. Underlined links are one of the few well-understood aspect of the web - like the back button - so changing this behaviour should be considered carefully. While I agree with Patrick about navigation links, some would argue that you should never change default link behaviour - colour or underlines. Instead, the users should determine these aspects for themselves. The downside of this argument is that changing default behaviour can sometimes enhance usability: - the use of hover effects (to provide additional feedback) - increasing the padding around the a element (to aid clickability) - turning off underlines and using border-bottom instead (to increase readability for certain user groups) - or even (contentiously) the use of background image icons to show offsite links. In the end, the decision to change default link behaviour should be determined by the type of site, the target audiences and most importantly, by user testing - not by black and white statements. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
This certainly is an interesting take from inside the Adobe mentality. Sorry, but there is a counter-argument here. It is clear to me that the people who designed the CSS standard were entirely unconcerned about how it might ever be handled by visual editors, since none of them actually used visual editors, nor did they even consider that they might be or should be important. The only model which interested them was, prepare markup in a text editor, write CSS rules in a text editor, check result in browser. So, what's so wrong with visual editors? Well, they don't display CSS pages like browsers do, for one. The onus is on the editor makers to handle the code correctly, not on the industry to coddle the editor makers. If even MS can manage to get CSS right most of the time, then I see no excuse for editor makers, other than the admitted difficulty of the task. Just think for a moment about a model of markup structure separated from format, and the formatting model requires that the entire set of CSS rules must be re-read every single time that *anything* is edited in a page to verify if the context, specificity, and cascade positions remain the same or have changed. It doesn't matter a stuff if you hand-code markup and CSS; it matters quite a lot if you are trying to present something in a visual editor. Why? Is it too much to ask a visual editor to refresh the display after every edit? Hand coders do that with their browsers, so what's the big deal? Is he afraid users will freak out over a two second delay now and then? Actually, I think given the way the standards are written and the way they work, both GoLive and Dreamweaver do a good job. I find that DW totally mangles the appearance of any CSS page that uses anything approaching a complex layout, even layouts that Explorer 5/Win can easily handle! And let's not even get into what happens when one tries to edit a CSS page in DW using the direct wysiwyg functions. The words train wreck are quite sufficient. I do understand the incredibly difficult job these editor makers face in handling CSS positioning correctly, but they managed to do it with tables, and I suspect that was pretty difficult too. My only real beef is with the good job claim. I do expect DW to eventually become CSS friendly, but only after IE and its many issues is taken out of the picture. Right now tho, DW+CSS is still a work in progress. Big John __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Warning my response is long and perhaps rambles a bit -- there are the beginnings of some nice ideas but it's lacking polish - I'm tired. When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained eye. In my experience clients generally talk about the site working in this browser and that browser as part of their requirements. I take this and guide the conversation towards meeting published standards independent of specific browser technology, ranking well in search engines (using design methods, not SEO), and a having a lower total cost of ownership. The skill is, as with any sales, to speak to the clients desires - push those buttons that turns your client on. The psychology of decision making is that it is an emotional process which is then rationalized with the 'facts'. So if you're pitching to, say, a fashion designer, then using flash (stereotypically the antithesis of accessibility and googleness) could well be the best tool to use for content delivery. [Use flash satay to make it accessible]. The biggest challenge designers face when pitching is how to preserve the value of design in an industry that promises one click professional publishing (yes, I'm looking at you dreamweaver, and dtp in general) in a market that is easy to enter but hard to master. How do you articulate what good design actually is when it is sometimes hard to distinguish from bad design? Good design often just works better, or looks better on a perceptual level and it's hard to pinpoint the 'why?'. I think basing a sales pitch on a specific browser is a huge mistake, as is skewing a design to work with a browsers strengths in a specific climate at a specific point of time -- it runs counter to my view of what web standards are about. Right now, getting things to work in IE is really the only area of designing with web standards that runs the risk of blowing out a design budget, but with experience this browsers quirks can generally be avoided/minimized... So you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is so much better than you competitors cheap design when, with practice, the methodology for producing a standards design is arguably the same as a non-standards design. Terrence Wood. On 2004-11-25 10:25 PM, Kristof Rutten wrote: Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy. He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another client. How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running around with the idea IE will fix all. Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be BLOCKED::http://www.s2store.be Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be BLOCKED::http://www.xperienz.be The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors do. The Google results : http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.be BLOCKED::http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20s a=N hl=nllr=start=20sa=N Remarks, ideas - toughts ? .K -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Terrence Wood wrote: When I pitch for a site I don't talk about web standards and accessibility per se - these are just methodologies I use to deliver results. Web standards and accessibility are invisible to the untrained eye. I always liken this to something like the construction industry: if I hire somebody to build me a house, I don't want them to talk to me about what type of mortar they'll be using. I trust that they'll choose the most appropriate mortar for the job. I'd be much more interested in what colour brick they may use, for instance... So if you're pitching to, say, a fashion designer, then using flash (stereotypically the antithesis of accessibility and googleness) could well be the best tool to use for content delivery. [Use flash satay to make it accessible]. Just wanted to point out that flash satay does nothing to improve accessibility. It only ensures validity of the markup against the xhtml spec, nothing more. Patrick H. Lauke -- _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Patrick you are right -- in and of itself flash satay doesn't improve accessibility. But using the object tag properly does - which is what the satay method uses (I use a variation with IE comments). Example (accessible image map, but same principles apply): http://developer.apple.com/internet/webcontent/access.html Another discussion: http://www.corfield.org/coldfusion/accessibility.html Terrence Wood. On 2004-11-26 10:32 AM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Terrence Wood wrote: Just wanted to point out that flash satay does nothing to improve accessibility. It only ensures validity of the markup against the xhtml spec, nothing more. Patrick H. Lauke -- *** Are you in the Wellington area and interested in web standards? Wellington Web Standards Group inaugural meeting 9 Dec 2004. See http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event24.cfm for details *** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Learning to design Accessibility
Is there a resource that's available that is able to fill the gaps in my knowledge regarding accessibility? You might want to try: http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/accessibility Laura ___ Laura L. Carlson Information Technology Systems and Services University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth, MN 55812-3009 http://www.d.umn.edu/goto/webdesign/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Discussion Threading
Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . Thunderbird/Mozilla cheers, Jeffery http://melbourne.ug.php.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button is just lazy programming. The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to maintain state if the user goes backward and submits again. This should be session based only, of course. This is pretty standard practice. Take a look at Amazon, eBay, PayPal an numerous other sites. Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:28 +1100 On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their details for an event. Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons, because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the database (or something like that!). I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical disabilities to use. We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on? Ta, Priscilla Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
Hi Stephen, Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business mail which gets delivered to my mail client. Also you can keep all of the messages and search them with the Google engine if you need to find any info on a past thread. If you want something that isn't browser based, try Firebird for Windows or Mac, or the default mail.app in Mac OSX which handles threading well also. Matt On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
I meant Thunderbird! sorry On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:26:16 +1100, Matt McCallum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Stephen, Its still in Beta, but Google Gmail handles discussion threading really well. I subscribe to all of my lists (including this one) with my Gmail account, and keep it separate from my personal and business mail which gets delivered to my mail client. Also you can keep all of the messages and search them with the Google engine if you need to find any info on a past thread. If you want something that isn't browser based, try Firebird for Windows or Mac, or the default mail.app in Mac OSX which handles threading well also. Matt On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Mozilla Thunderbird. View Sort by Threaded Note: When somebody doesn't 'Reply to' a post (meaning, they just hit 'New' and copy the Subject, the msg will not show threaded. But for the most part, people in the know do this. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
I agree with David. Your PHP guy is simply mistaken. Or, to be charitable, he has failed to get across whatever point he wanted to make. I can't see why opening a new window makes any difference at all. And if it's absolutely crucial that people don't use the back button, what's wrong with just telling them that? If you can get an email from the PHP guy explaining in more detail what he thinks the issue is, we could discuss it in more detail. jh There is no need to open a new window in this case, in fact opening a new window for the reason so that the user can't use the back button is just lazy programming. The form pages should hold the users information, and be able to maintain state if the user goes backward and submits again. This should be session based only, of course. This is pretty standard practice. Take a look at Amazon, eBay, PayPal an numerous other sites. Original Message From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:09:28 +1100 On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their details for an event. Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons, because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the database (or something like that!). I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical disabilities to use. We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on? Ta, Priscilla Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Have You Validated Your Code? John Horner(+612 / 02) 9333 3488 Senior Developer, ABC Online http://www.abc.net.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Gosh, I just had some email rage, y'know like road rage but about this email. edit expletives about the backend person Forms, database connections, cookies, and sessions, have nothing to do windows, and I suggest your backend coder does know what he is doing if he needs a new window to make something work. The list of web apps that don't open new windows is too numerous to mention (any page where you login or search for something) but here's one: google.com Terrence Wood. On 2004-11-26 4:09 PM, Priscilla Brice-Weller wrote: On our website, we ask people to fill in a form to register their details for an event. Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons, because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the database (or something like that!). I told him that I don't want a new window opening as it is not user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical disabilities to use. We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on? Ta, Priscilla -- You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to learn about standards and accessibility. I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge about standards. So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a job. I hope that sounded right? But yeah - if you hire someone who has a degree in software engineering and majoring in Java - they will get more pay than someone who is equally as skilled with Java - but they didn't learn at university... Well thats what I have noticed in life thus far. Anyway - anyone agree??? Jixor - Stephen I wrote: To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an extra. If you can't sell standards to your client then you should research the benefits more because time and time again standards based design has more than proven itself, in ways that a business understands. The only reason standards based design may cost more is because its often the difference between crap and at least decent design. However often clients going for the cheapest will have actually wasted their money because the results tend to be so bad. Kristof Rutten wrote: Hi All, I don't know if you guys experience the same anoying and frustrating talks when it comes to convince a prospect/client of the fact his/her site isn't working for most of the world. -- The fact that it's not build following certain standards, the fact Google is like a blind, numb en deaf person and so on. Finally you have the guy convinced, in comes the next frontpage cowboy. He lowers the price, the target, the standards .. and up up and away, there goes another client. How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Do you have the same feeling most people don't care about all of the above and keep running around with the idea IE will fix all. Prospects site: http://www.s2store.be BLOCKED::http://www.s2store.be Frontpage cowboys: http://www.xperienz.be BLOCKED::http://www.xperienz.be The prospect is complaining about the fact his site doesn't show up in Google and zhy all of his competitors do. The Google results : http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N BLOCKED::http://www.google.be/search?q=site:s2store.behl=nllr=start=20sa=N Remarks, ideas - toughts ? .K ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:04:34 +1100, Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Although it's not trendy to mention it, Outlook will handle threads quite acceptably if you choose Arrange By - Conversation from the View menu :) -- Kay Smoljak http://kay.smoljak.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
C: Alt and left arrow key (works for forward with right arrow key as well) Tim Hill Computer Associates Graphic Artist tel: +612 9937 0792 fax: +612 9937 0546 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cameron Adams Sent: Friday, 26 November 2004 2:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't actually stop you from going back in the browser's history. You can either: A. Hit the backspace button to go back B. Right-click and choose back -- Cameron W: www.themaninblue.com --- Priscilla Brice-Weller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this form, so that the user cannot use the browser's navigation buttons, because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the database (or something like that!). __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Opening a window without navigation elements doesn't actually stop you from going back in the browser's history. You can either: A. Hit the backspace button to go back B. Right-click and choose back This is all when and good, but many users are still only just getting the concept of clicking the back button - these keyboard options are definitely not on the radar. During usability tests, I have seen users get quite lost when new windows pop up. I can't go back! (in a panicky voice). At the end of a session I have seen these users closed the current browser window and then be quite puzzled about the other windows underneath. Ahhh, there's that page! How did it get there?. I've also seen a vision impaired user who use screen magnifiers set at high degrees of magnification loose a popup window completely. The popup occurred off-screen and caused a great degree of confusion. I've clicked on the link again but nothing happened. David Woodbridge, the blind tech. specialist from the Royal Blind society recently talked about how popup windows can sometimes stop screen readers talking completely - the sound simply stops and the user had no idea where they are. The question might be better put the other way around... Knowing that pop-ups can cause usability and accessibility issues, is there a real need to make this page pop up? Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Yes, that is a good point, and is what I was getting at earlier: you really need to tell the story of why your 'expensive' design is so much better than you competitors cheap design There is a joke (loosely paraphrased) about the plumber kicking a pipe and charges $100 for it. When the bill is questioned he says: I kicked the pipe for free. I charged for knowing where to kick it. This is how it is for design I think... Terrence Wood. On 2004-11-26 4:45 PM, Chris Stratford wrote: Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to learn about standards and accessibility. I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge about standards. So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a job. I hope that sounded right? But yeah - if you hire someone who has a degree in software engineering and majoring in Java - they will get more pay than someone who is equally as skilled with Java - but they didn't learn at university... Well thats what I have noticed in life thus far. Anyway - anyone agree??? -- You know you've achieved perfection in design, not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
What you are really getting at is not so much that you charge more because you know about building accessible standards based websites but because your experience is broader. For example you can say ...and because the site is built this way it has such and such benefits to vision impaired users or such and such benefits to search engine spiders. There are numerous angles and numerous articles/tools online which can be used to demonstrate the benefits too. In the end the client should get the sense that you know what you are talking about if you demonstrate the benefits to them. Clients are looking for good advice as much as technical skills (which most often they don't follow anyway). Nick Something I think you all are missing is that you have taken time to learn about standards and accessibility. I think I can charge more for my services because I have more knowledge about standards. So for me the price may be more expensive - but they are paying for my knowledege and experience - rather than more time and work put into a job. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope that it was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? The DW team is constantly trying to make their product compatible with web standards - the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so (http://www.webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/), and yet we can see some results of it in the newest version on DW; sure it still isn't perfect but we can observe some progress. Why shouldn't Adobe GoLive team do the same? The web has passed the point of safe return when it comes to web standards, accessibility and usability matters; they are to be taken under consideration even by folks at Adobe. It's the only way... --- Czes³aw Liebert http://www.78and85.com/ tel. (+48) (0) 504 425 892 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Applications that don't open in a new window
Hi Priscilla, I develop in PHP (though the actual language is fairly irrelevant) and based on what you say it sounds like a fingers crossed approach to the problem. Not knowing the perspective of your developer I cannot say whether he is wrong or right, but I can say with absolute certainty there is no fundamental reason to have to open a new window to control the way a user interacts with the form. I'm not sure how far to go without drifting off topic but the thing he may be talking about is maintaining state. For example; if the user submits the form but their email is invalid, you want to send them back to the same form to correct it. During that submission you need to hold the data they submitted (i.e. maintain state), check it and if incorrect send them back to the form with the data they filled in still there. In multi page forms it is also crucial to carry over data. Neither cases have necessarily anything to do with what windows are open. Personally I, like you, would never open a new window and in fact would see it as yet another thing I'd have to control in the dangerous world of forms. John's comment: If you can get an email from the PHP guy explaining in more detail what he thinks the issue is, we could discuss it in more detail. Is probably a good idea. Nick Our backend coder (php) insists that a new window should open for this form, so that the user cannot use the browsers navigation buttons, because if they do some of the information does not make it back to the database (or something like that!). I told him that I dont want a new window opening as it is not user-friendly and may be difficult for people with physical disabilities to use. We have now reached an impasse. I told him I would supply examples of similar applications online that comply with web standards i.e. do not open in a new window. Does anybody know of any that I can pass on? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] modify styles for smaller screen resolutions
Hi, I'm experimenting with using javascript to write in alternate style information into the body of my webpages, similar to the current www.smh.com.au method (view source and scroll down to immediately inside body). The method seems to work fine, but I am wondering about the pros/cons of doing this, from a best practice/web standards point of view? Have other people implemented similar solutions? BTW, I am working within the constraints of a specific design where most of the components need to be fixed width. Many thanks, Cade ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Stop Breaking my code!
Hi all, This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code! I createda basic template in notepad, validated it and the CSS, checked it in a few browsers (Win Mac) to make sure it works ok and then inserted it into Visual Studio to add in the C# controls etc and when I saved it, it turned my lovely code in garbage (the rude thing even removed all the /li!) Now, I realise that it's Microsoft and this particular version of the program is "like so 2002", but does any one know of a way (short of updating the software) to make it leave my code alone and just do its job? I thought about ditching it all together and just do it all in notepad, but I'm only new to C# and have no idea how to code it without the fancy drag drop Visual Studio offers (lame I know). Any hints, ideas, suggestions would be GREATLY appreciate. Surely there's other Web Standards Freaks[1] who also happen to play with .net technologies? Cheers Bradhttp://brad-lucas.org [1] I mean "Freak" in a positive way. I consider myself a Web Standards Freak and use the term with pride. --- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Discussion Threading
I of course already use it I just didn't know it had this feature, slightly annoying. Thanks! Jeffery Fernandez wrote: Jixor - Stephen I wrote: Are there any mail clients that will automatically thread discussions? I use news groups regularly and comparatively the discussion list is very annoying and cumbersome. Cheers. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** . Thunderbird/Mozilla cheers, Jeffery http://melbourne.ug.php.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Explain why div isnt contained
Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm) I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't push their parent down the page. I have a div in this page called; #container border: 1px solid #000; background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;) this div sits around 2 other divs; 1. #content (float:left;width:560px;) 2. #sidebar (margin-left:560px) In FF, Opera Netscape (leave out IE, there is an issue there with the #sidebar that i will resolve later) the border of#container is clearly visible. #conainer doesn't seem to contain the #content div (with its own nested divs), it instead only works off the height of the #sidebar div. Why doesn't the wrapping div contain the child #content div like it does the #sidebar so that the black border wraps it all? nameadam hough sitedampsponge.com suggestiondont dig to deep you might get burnt by the molten lava ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code!
In VS.NET, under Tools...Options...Text Editor...C#... uncheck the box for Automatically format completed constructs and pasted source Also, make sure your checkboxes under Tools...Options...HTML Designer... are all set to HTML View. Let me know if that helps. Francesco On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:18:37 +1000, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Hi all, This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code! Francesco Sanfilippo, Internet Developer --- Blackcoil Productions - http://blackcoil.com URL123 Link Service - http://url123.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Adobe Forum comment on CSS in visual editors
As far as I see Adobe is not to bothered with webstandards, Macromedia see standard compliance as a string to DW bow. The adobe site is based old skool web design, surface looks nice but underneth its ugly. I gather that since adobe is renowned and respected for design orientated products like Photoshop, the adobe perpspective (short sighted as it may be is) focused on allowing designers with knowledge of photoshop and other such packages to be able to knock out web pages with not to much fuss, thoughing standards out the window DW is the most accomplished web standards pacakge although it has to be confiigured to do so, the time and effort in this is above and beyond just doing it by hand (browser/simple html editor) Quark (http://www.quark.com/) I believe has a web publishing package I have heard that it supports web standards, with little configuration, the site has been xhtml for a long time now Czeslaw Liebert wrote: I am a bit amazed with Adobe's approach to this matter; i even hope that it was this technical man's personal opinion on the subject. Why? The DW team is constantly trying to make their product compatible with web standards - the WaSP group is encouraging them to do so (http://www.webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/), and yet we can see some results of it in the newest version on DW; sure it still isn't perfect but we can observe some progress. Why shouldn't Adobe GoLive team do the same? The web has passed the point of safe return when it comes to web standards, accessibility and usability matters; they are to be taken under consideration even by folks at Adobe. It's the only way... --- Czes³aw Liebert http://www.78and85.com/ tel. (+48) (0) 504 425 892 mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Stop Breaking my code! - ADMIN
ADMIN Hi all, This is probably not the forum for such things, and if not, my apologies, but...I've been slaving away on a C# project in MS Visual Studio .NET (2002) and have spent a good couple of hours trying to find out a way to stop the blasted thing from ruining my lovely XHTML1.0 Strict code! Please reply to Brad offlist - as it is off-topic ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Explain why div isnt contained
I asked the same issue a few days ago, the answer is on the following page Mordechai Peller advised me to read the following Another thing to check out http://positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html I read it, and decided to adopt a work around since I found the syntax of the various hacks mind boggling hope this help ss Adam Hough wrote: Link to my problem page (http://dampsponge.com/layout/layout1.htm) I want to understand containing boxes and why some child boxes don't push their parent down the page. I have a div in this page called; #container border: 1px solid #000; background: url(purlpeimage.jpg) repeat-y right;) this div sits around 2 other divs; 1. #content (float:left;width:560px;) 2. #sidebar (margin-left:560px) In FF, Opera Netscape (leave out IE, there is an issue there with the #sidebar that i will resolve later) the border of#container is clearly visible. #conainer doesn't seem to contain the #content div (with its own nested divs), it instead only works off the height of the #sidebar div. Why doesn't the wrapping div contain the child #content div like it does the #sidebar so that the black border wraps it all? nameadam hough sitedampsponge.com suggestiondont dig to deep you might get burnt by the molten lava ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Thx Sam aka [EMAIL PROTECTED] w: www.ss29.co.uk t: 07958 322 010 --- Passion Inspires Creativity ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an extra. Keep studying those apostrophes though - plurals vs. possessives vs. contractions, etc.! Rick Faaberg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
I rarely even mention web standards to clients anymore unless they are govt or govt agencies. I agree that as someone paying a builder to build a house for me, I don't need to know the pros and cons of a certain type of mortar - just do the job and do it so it gets me the result I want! My pitch revolves around the client's bottom line - ROI and profit. If web standards directly increase the ROI (as in the case of govt and ecommerce) I'll push it. If it's someone selling something, I'll push the accessibility sub-set of web standards. I'll talk about the varying kinds of disabilities, ranging from people who wear - or need - glasses, to people with arthritis, to people with intellectual disadvantages, to those who don't have access to modern computers and browsers, through to those who can't see or hear at all... I find too many people equate accessibility with making sure people using screen readers can access a site whereas really it affects *far* more of the general population than a lot of us are aware. These are all clients' potential customers - why turn them away? Regarding charging - like anything, the more experienced you get the faster you get so it's a bit silly to charge across a project on the basis of time spent. I charge according to value for money and won't compete on price. (I just got a job for a redesign where the original site was done by a 16 year old kid for $300 and the client didn't see why he should have to pay what was to him big bucks and in fact firmly stated he didn't have it to spend... but my proposal evidently convinced him and I didn't even mention web standards. As someone said, it's about pushing the right buttons for a given client. Regarding charging for experience and skills - well, yes you do. That's your IP (Intellectual Property) and it's worth something! (Though of course just because you are a Java programmer it doesn't mean you can charge Java programming rates for ordinary web design work.) But I think my clients are going to see evidence of the IP and what they're paying for when I present my proposal. I'm not going to charge *extra* for my web standards knowledge as such. In my view it should be standard. :-) But my clients will pay for the overall benefit to them, whatever that might be. I do believe that most businesses care more about value for money than price. (There is *always* going to be someone to undercut you on the price alone.) We just have to give them what they want - make them want to buy, instead of trying to sell them something! If web standards are a part of that, then by all means sell them for all they're worth! If not, no biggie - just do the job the best way you know how - which is what the client will expect after your fantastic pitch. :-) Vicki. :-) On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 23:01:09 -0800, Rick Faaberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/25/04 7:00 PM Jixor - Stephen I [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent this out: To be honest I don't understand how building using standards could cost more unless you simply don't know what your doing. Its really as simple as that, there is no extra work involved in using standards, if anything its less work. Building using standards is a choice not an extra. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
