Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, quoting: Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. That is a specious remark. Consider, instead, that it all depends on ...Humans. NOT The World! Wittgenstein -- for what he's worth -- asserts and reminds us in his TRACTATUS, that: The World is all that is the case. (but that's viewing it from the realm of thought, only). Going backwards, for example, consider: Boolean Algebra was pretty *USE*less, until other Humans found a use for it. Your cognitive theory and practice of Zen is limited to the realm or applicability of thought, or other cognition. But Zen has nothing to do with that. Except that it subsumes it. You appear unfortunately to working only on a special case, and barking up a tree without bark. Limiting, and limited. But, have at it. And, you *may* have it. Your pragmatism is good as near as it goes, but I like Charles Peirce's instance of it much more, because he does not cloud it with associations with Zen, or with anything else. He is clear. And, I like Zen's emphasis on practice and awakening, because it naturally has no dependence on linear or associative thought: instead, it is founded on realization, awakening, and the recognition of regaining our original Human inheritance. No small matter, nor distinction. These are personal preferences of good taste and correct practice, though, and I mean no disrespect in dismissing your views as in any way touching upon our topic of Zen. I'm glad, too, that we are friends. I like having friends who span the spectrum of Human fallibility. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill!, Good distinction! And I thought *I* was the Philosopher. (well, I *was*. ;-) ) Well said, sir, Kudos, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, Bill!, Edgar, Group, Math is Trivial. That's what makes it Math. It is not Physics. Math cannot and does not say why it so accurately appears to model the World (for Humans, anyway; Dolphins may have another view). Trivial means making no statement about reality. Ask any Mathematician about trivial. Ask a Mathematical Physicist, and, well, that would be cheating. Stay safe, no matter what Math, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, Communicates? No. Math merely insinuates (to you). *If* you are game! You've got to be a willing, or innocent, conspirator. I suspect you're both. It's all up to you. And your delusions. Many people have them, so don't be offended. You're just one other one among too many. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Joe, I'll try to explain it simply. In a reality which operates according to actual laws of nature usefulness means something actually works. To actually work it must in accord with the actual laws of reality.. Edgar On Jul 11, 2013, at 6:14 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, quoting: Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. That is a specious remark. Consider, instead, that it all depends on ...Humans. NOT The World! Wittgenstein -- for what he's worth -- asserts and reminds us in his TRACTATUS, that: The World is all that is the case. (but that's viewing it from the realm of thought, only). Going backwards, for example, consider: Boolean Algebra was pretty *USE*less, until other Humans found a use for it. Your cognitive theory and practice of Zen is limited to the realm or applicability of thought, or other cognition. But Zen has nothing to do with that. Except that it subsumes it. You appear unfortunately to working only on a special case, and barking up a tree without bark. Limiting, and limited. But, have at it. And, you *may* have it. Your pragmatism is good as near as it goes, but I like Charles Peirce's instance of it much more, because he does not cloud it with associations with Zen, or with anything else. He is clear. And, I like Zen's emphasis on practice and awakening, because it naturally has no dependence on linear or associative thought: instead, it is founded on realization, awakening, and the recognition of regaining our original Human inheritance. No small matter, nor distinction. These are personal preferences of good taste and correct practice, though, and I mean no disrespect in dismissing your views as in any way touching upon our topic of Zen. I'm glad, too, that we are friends. I like having friends who span the spectrum of Human fallibility. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, My helpful simple explanation runs as follows; please attend: Usefulness is a Human category. Does it go beyond that? No. To say so is to establish a Metaphysics. To establish a Metaphysics is not Utilitarian, nor Pragmatist. Instead, a Metaphysics is Human, and probably only Human, too. We can hardly ask other species. Still, this may yet be off-topic of our Zen concerns. It's Philosophy, instead. Which I love. But I am set upon following the Forum's rules. So, I'll desist. --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, I'll try to explain it simply. In a reality which operates according to actual laws of nature usefulness means something actually works. To actually work it must in accord with the actual laws of reality.. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle  The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates?  What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
it's innate...they just know... we do too.. except us folks deny our origins... born knowing in the razzlemattazle of life we forget our origins ..merle Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle  The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates?  What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web? It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting your human delusions onto a the spider and the web. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle   Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àdisagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle àMerle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one Ãâàlooks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle ÃâàMerle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàexplain to me why maths ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàart and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàand realisation and awakening also is universal ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàas it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmerle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàPBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
sorry i am not.. that is how us humans learn. how do you think the idea of a aeroplane came into being...? i think leonardo da vinci would have your argument as wanting.. we learn from nature.. not the other way around merle Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web? It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting your human delusions onto a the spider and the web. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle   Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle  Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle  Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... ÃÆ'‚ explain to me why maths ÃÆ'‚ art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this ÃÆ'‚ and realisation and awakening also is universal ÃÆ'‚ as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... explain to me why maths art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this and realisation and awakening also is universal as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being merle Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the ventilation sings its shape through the drywall; the left hand has never felt so useless -- I am making progress; time to start over.Whoa, now I gotta pee... no choice but to get up or piss myself. Now I feel stupid for thinking I was doing the right thing by ignoring those cramps and itches that I sat through, thinking I was more enlightened for not scratching. I am making progress; time to start over. -- On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:47 AM EDT Merle Lester wrote: bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... explain to me why maths art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this and realisation and awakening also is universal as it comes from deep inside the very Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example...  explain to me why maths  art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this  and realisation and awakening also is universal  as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being  merle  Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àmathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle àPBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2.àThey would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different.àThe equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2!àAnd the effect IS the cause.àYour karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing.àYour karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing.àForget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- àOn Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ààà...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links ààzen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
PBS, This is our first stream-of-consciousness post in a long time! (Unless of course you count Merle's posts which sometimes come pretty close.) ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: All the formerly discarded peripheral vision; the AC turns on and the ventilation sings its shape through the drywall; the left hand has never felt so useless -- I am making progress; time to start over.Whoa, now I gotta pee... no choice but to get up or piss myself. Now I feel stupid for thinking I was doing the right thing by ignoring those cramps and itches that I sat through, thinking I was more enlightened for not scratching. I am making progress; time to start over. -- On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 3:47 AM EDT Merle Lester wrote: bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... explain to me why maths art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this and realisation and awakening also is universal as it comes from deep inside the very Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example...  explain to me why maths  art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this  and realisation and awakening also is universal  as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being  merle  Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle  Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... àexplain to me why maths àart and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this àand realisation and awakening also is universal àas it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being àmerle àMerle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàmathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃâàPBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2.ÃâàThey would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different.ÃâàThe equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2!ÃâàAnd the effect IS the cause.ÃâàYour karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing.ÃâàYour karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing.ÃâàForget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- ÃâàOn Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ÃâàÃâàÃâà...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill, True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
bill..many things have duel purposes... what you believe and think may not be useful today will be humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow... one must keep the door opened so to speak.. for you never know.. merle Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, A funny Freudian slip. Are you DUELing with Bill? :-) Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Merle Lester wrote: bill..many things have duel purposes... what you believe and think may not be useful today will be humans cannot do without without it scenario tomorrow... one must keep the door opened so to speak.. for you never know.. merle Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle  Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example...  explain to me why maths  art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this  and realisation and awakening also is universal  as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being  merle  Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Edgar, FINALLY! A good really, really good question! It's so good I'll respond line-by-line: ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. No, everyone does not. A Buddha does not. And becoming a Buddha (or more correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is all about. Here is an example I gave recently of a Buddha who has no intentions or purposes: Too lazy to be ambitious, I let the world take care of itself. Ten days' worth of rice in my bag; a bundle of twigs by the fireplace. Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment? Listening to the night rain on my roof, I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out. - Ryokan That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Having intentions and purposes (and logic and judgments and classifications, etc...) is what a delusive life is like in the pluralistic, delusive World of Forms. But this is not real. All this is delusion. Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? There's nothing wrong with that, unless you really believe (are attached to) these delusions. They are not real because they are delusions. Zen practice first enables you to halt your intellect's creation of pluralism and all the other delusions so you may experience reality (Buddha Nature). It then helps you re-integrate your delusions without attachments by recognizing them for what they are - delusions. This process is IMO the meaning of the zen aphorism First there is a mountain; then there is no mountain; then there is. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle  Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one àlooks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle àMerle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... Ãâàexplain to me why maths Ãâàart and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this Ãâàand realisation and awakening also is universal Ãâàas it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being Ãâàmerle ÃâàMerle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàPBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThey would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThe equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2!ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAnd the effect IS the cause.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàYour karmic punishment for doing something bad is you
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill, Total C..P! (censored in compliance with the new guidelines)... The person who wrote the poem CLEARLY has plenty of purpose in life. Like writing the poem, like eating so he has the energy to write the poem, and like coming in out of the rain back home... We can disagree about which purposes are meaningful and useful or which are excessive, but there MUST be lots of purpose without which nothing could even survive to deny purpos... G, this is really frustrating and a big waste of time. Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 9:33 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, FINALLY! A good really, really good question! It's so good I'll respond line-by-line: ...but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. No, everyone does not. A Buddha does not. And becoming a Buddha (or more correctly stated, 'realizing Buddha Nature') is what zen practice is all about. Here is an example I gave recently of a Buddha who has no intentions or purposes: Too lazy to be ambitious, I let the world take care of itself. Ten days' worth of rice in my bag; a bundle of twigs by the fireplace. Why chatter about delusion and enlightenment? Listening to the night rain on my roof, I sit comfortably, with both legs stretched out. - Ryokan That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Having intentions and purposes (and logic and judgments and classifications, etc...) is what a delusive life is like in the pluralistic, delusive World of Forms. But this is not real. All this is delusion. Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? There's nothing wrong with that, unless you really believe (are attached to) these delusions. They are not real because they are delusions. Zen practice first enables you to halt your intellect's creation of pluralism and all the other delusions so you may experience reality (Buddha Nature). It then helps you re-integrate your delusions without attachments by recognizing them for what they are - delusions. This process is IMO the meaning of the zen aphorism First there is a mountain; then there is no mountain; then there is. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, True, but everyone DOES have intentions and purposes. That's what real life is like in the REAL world of forms... Why, for God's sake, do you think there is something wrong with that or it isn't real? Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 8:26 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, I don't think so. It's kind of like the discussion Merle and I were having about having a map and being lost. Something is only 'useful' if you have an intention, a purpose to fulfill, much like having destination. An example is a hammer is useful for pounding in a nail, but its not useful for screwing in a screw. If you have no intentions, no purpose - then 'useful' doesn't really have much meaning. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Yes, that's what reality is! Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 6:59 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, No, 'usefulness' only means something gives you the results you want. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Usefulness is a criterion that something IS real. Usefulness means it's in synch with the actual logic of the world of forms and thus IS accurately part of reality... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Bill! wrote: PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3,
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates? What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates? What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle  Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle  Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example...  explain to me why maths  art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this  and realisation and awakening also is universal  as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being  merle  Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'‚ PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2.ÃÆ'‚ They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different.ÃÆ'‚ The equal-sign is the present.
[Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
i say one and one makes 3...merle Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananas...@yahoo.com wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
PBS, I agree it's all in the present. We feel it, there. I'll make no projections about what may be, in the future, though, regarding karma surviving, etc. I just don't know. I have to be an agnostic about that, because it is honest to be agnostic. To be a believer seems to require that you have some basis of proof, and I do not. To be a deny-er seems to require that you have some proof, too, and I don't. Meanwhile, I go with the present! It seems you do, too. I think there's every reason to do so. Here's to it, --Joe pandabananasock@... wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Neither should the reality it represents be mistaken for experience. Fuck zen, I'm hungry! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:10 PM PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
PBS, Then by all means, Just EAT! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Neither should the reality it represents be mistaken for experience. Fuck zen, I'm hungry! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:10 PM PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
I AM ! On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 9:32 PM PBS, Then by all means, Just EAT! ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, Except... that has nothing to do with awakening in Zen, which is having nothing. That's not just the experience of Wu, (mu), when one experiences it, but continues endlessly, until it's covered-up again eventually, which always happens. I think infinities and epsilons in math have good applicability as metaphors to, or of, features of operation of Zen Mind / No Mind. Maybe best applicability. Just weighing-in, vis-a-vis math. I wrote here already that one finds oneself doing math in a different way in the awakened state, compared with previously. It can still be done. But it is so, so different (an experience). I survived, somehow. My job depended on it. And I took another (part-time) job during those eight weeks of the continuation of the first opening. One finds space and time for things one can help in, that's for sure. It could be good to find a way to check (stop) oneself from over-extending, but I don't know how. Probably a married householder parent will have no problem, thanks to plenty of cooperative or competing influence. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
I wasn't talking about enlightenment however, was I? Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Except... that has nothing to do with awakening in Zen, which is having nothing. That's not just the experience of Wu, (mu), when one experiences it, but continues endlessly, until it's covered-up again eventually, which always happens. I think infinities and epsilons in math have good applicability as metaphors to, or of, features of operation of Zen Mind / No Mind. Maybe best applicability. Just weighing-in, vis-a-vis math. I wrote here already that one finds oneself doing math in a different way in the awakened state, compared with previously. It can still be done. But it is so, so different (an experience). I survived, somehow. My job depended on it. And I took another (part-time) job during those eight weeks of the continuation of the first opening. One finds space and time for things one can help in, that's for sure. It could be good to find a way to check (stop) oneself from over-extending, but I don't know how. Probably a married householder parent will have no problem, thanks to plenty of cooperative or competing influence. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, Well, if you mention Zen, or set about to analogize it, it is only from the point of view of Zen Mind, or No Mind, that one has any inkling of what is meant by Zen. Otherwise, if one mentions Zen, anything goes, to the extent it goes anywhere accurately. I think the appreciations of Math are fine, as far as they go, as appreciations of Math; I question the connection with Zen, unless the connection is truly in some connection with Zen Mind / No Mind. What we read about and practice as Zen, is not Zen Mind. It is the necessary Zen study, and Zen practice. That's the small difference I mean to bring out. I don't dispute however that Soto Zen Buddhists claim that Zazen is already the expression of our true nature, nor do I dispute the content of that claim. But only an awakened adept practitioner (e.g., Dogen) makes this claim and identification honestly, and accurately. Meanwhile, and afterwards, there's Practice! For me too. Plenty enough math, also. best, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I wasn't talking about enlightenment however, was I? Thanks, On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: Chris, Except... that has nothing to do with awakening in Zen, which is having nothing. That's not just the experience of Wu, (mu), when one experiences it, but continues endlessly, until it's covered-up again eventually, which always happens. I think infinities and epsilons in math have good applicability as metaphors to, or of, features of operation of Zen Mind / No Mind. Maybe best applicability. Just weighing-in, vis-a-vis math. I wrote here already that one finds oneself doing math in a different way in the awakened state, compared with previously. It can still be done. But it is so, so different (an experience). I survived, somehow. My job depended on it. And I took another (part-time) job during those eight weeks of the continuation of the first opening. One finds space and time for things one can help in, that's for sure. It could be good to find a way to check (stop) oneself from over-extending, but I don't know how. Probably a married householder parent will have no problem, thanks to plenty of cooperative or competing influence. --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
