RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
P.S.: Sorry about that. I forgot about the list charter. Maybe mentioning that these guys merely exist is a violation. Stacy. At 02:11 PM 09/14/2003 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- The implications are that people from the far East are better? --- I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs. Are their marriages better or worse than ours? How and why? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I don't know if they can just throw their wives away, abuse them, etc. I suppose so, since it seems that I heard on 20/20 once that there are American pedofiles who just love the Far East for their lack of surveillance on the sexual activities of American men with practically children. The only thing I can say for them is that they have learned to relax. Stacy. At 02:11 PM 09/14/2003 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- The implications are that people from the far East are better? --- I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs. Are their marriages better or worse than ours? How and why? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Stacy Smith wrote: --- The implications are that people from the far East are better? --- I implied no such thing, but since you asked, perhaps you could please instruct us on the subject of Far Eastern culture and marriage customs. Are their marriages better or worse than ours? How and why? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Paul Osborne wrote: --- This is outdated counsel and no longer meets with the necessary needs and requirements of many saints in a changing world that places new demands on families. I see President Hinckley has been slowly superseding this counsel at a rate that is not too far behind the trend. --- Paul, I cannot locate any general counsel from church leaders indicating that President Benson's directives about mothers staying home has been rescinded or superceded. Can you find us an authoritative source as basis for your assertions? A recent conference talk from President Hinckley would be convincing. I am minded of one of Jesus' comments to the Jews about divorce, from the New Testament. He said that because the Jews insisted on a provision for divorce, Moses gave them some kind of compromise to satisfy their unrighteous demands. Nevertheless, there is no provision for divorce in the laws of God. The only legitimate marriage contract is one that is eternally binding. We can certainly follow this pattern in our own times with regard to our selective obedience to the counsel of general church leaders. Whether or not we as a church accept and live by true principles is has no bearing on the truth of correct principles. There will come a day of reckoning when our faithfulness will be measured. Those who insist on watering down the principles of the gospel for their own convenience will come up short of the mark. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
The implications are that people from the far East are better? Stacy. At 02:06 AM 09/11/2003 +, you wrote: I wish I could understand why the contemporary western view is that our women are so transcendingly enlightened. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most contemporary western women have no regard for the correct principles of the gospel as they pertain specifically to women. Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of following President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the home. Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in the temple and their current rate of divorce. Would these be good measures? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:06:26 + Jim Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of > following > President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the > home. > Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in > the > temple and their current rate of divorce. Would these be good > measures? This is outdated counsel and no longer meets with the necessary needs and requirements of many saints in a changing world that places new demands on families. I see President Hinckley has been slowly superseding this counsel at a rate that is not too far behind the trend. Many working men can no longer provide professional wages for their families sustenance although they perform honorable tasks that must be performed by someone in our working society. Even the working jobs that once paid very well are hardly enough to take care of a family let alone make the insurance premiums for two cars in which the Church requires every family to have in order to do your duty! Working woman is the wave that is upon us and the Church will have to deal with it as it is now doing. The Church has no choice but to make friendly allowance for working woman or enter into the United Order. Paradox is upon us! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I wish I could understand why the contemporary western view is that our women are so transcendingly enlightened. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most contemporary western women have no regard for the correct principles of the gospel as they pertain specifically to women. Perhaps we could conduct a survey of views on importance of following President Benson's counsel about mothers not working outside the home. Or perhaps we could find some statistics regarding women married in the temple and their current rate of divorce. Would these be good measures? // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
John (BLT) and I once attended a presentation on Paul's Views on Women given by none other than our own (AWOL) Tom Valetta. Tom has now been released as Mission President and should be back available for comment. John?? It was a great presentation. IIRC, he maintained that it was Greek influence that has degraded their societal position even into our own times. But it would be much better to hear it from Tom. Till At 08:47 AM 9/10/2003 -0600, Sir George wrote: I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the opposite. I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different from those of our time. And it may be that a superficial look at the practices may make them look unacceptable to us today. But when we take time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship with Christ. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to > > > Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews > they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures > bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they > treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever > gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO. > > What does Tag have to say? > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I do not think that the scriptures bear that out at all, rather the opposite. I will admit, readilly, that the social customs of that time are different from those of our time. And it may be that a superficial look at the practices may make them look unacceptable to us today. But when we take time to truly understand their situation we would find the kind of relationship that would warrent the comparison with our desired relationship with Christ. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to > > > Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews > they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures > bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they > treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever > gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO. > > What does Tag have to say? > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Well, I am, for one, angry that it seems a woman could never leave home until she was married. This Biblical state of affairs caused a lot of conflict in my own life and made me bitter. Even when society said I could leave home I tried several times and always ended up with a nervous breakdown. Not only was I competing with the idea that I was handicapped but also I felt I could make no decision without asking my family. In my opinion this led to inability to make proper decisions in life to the point where at age 45 I still feel like a girl of 13. Stacy. At 06:55 AM 09/10/2003 -0600, you wrote: Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to understand the subject. I think that if you really take a look at the subject you would find a completely different approach than the one you suggest. The relationship between a married couple has been used for centuries, and for good reason, to suggest the proper relationship between Christ and his followers. I do not think that this would be the case if the marriage, and the womans part in it, were so despicable as you suggest. I am currently reading a book called "Beloved Bridegoom" by Donna B. Nielsen. It discusses this topic. It has a sub-title of "Finding Christ in Ancient Jewish Marriage and Family Customs." You might find this very informative. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul > > (not > > Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women > > to > > RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty > > obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either. > > > Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange > people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use > to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks > treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to > marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 06:55:36 -0600 George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to Well, I've looked at the subject and from what I have read about the Jews they treated their woman like second class citizens. Don't the scriptures bear that out? I've read a lot of material about the Egyptians and they treated their woman descent with a lot more rights then the Jews ever gave their woman. The ancient Jews were a cruel people, IMNSHO. What does Tag have to say? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Paul, before you go through a tirade like that you really ought to understand the subject. I think that if you really take a look at the subject you would find a completely different approach than the one you suggest. The relationship between a married couple has been used for centuries, and for good reason, to suggest the proper relationship between Christ and his followers. I do not think that this would be the case if the marriage, and the womans part in it, were so despicable as you suggest. I am currently reading a book called "Beloved Bridegoom" by Donna B. Nielsen. It discusses this topic. It has a sub-title of "Finding Christ in Ancient Jewish Marriage and Family Customs." You might find this very informative. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > writes: > > Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul > > (not > > Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women > > to > > RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty > > obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either. > > > Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange > people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use > to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks > treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to > marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 13:32:31 -0400 Chet Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul > (not > Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women > to > RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty > obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either. Ha! I don't by that. The Jews and the early Christians were a strange people altogether. There customs and habits were nothing like we are use to. Woman were second class citizens too. The Egyptians and the Greeks treated their woman better than the Jews ever did! When it comes to marriage and woman's rights the Jews were pathetic. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Kent Francis opinions:
as Paul stated in 1 Cor 11:16 on the hair issue "but if any man seem to be
contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God".
How much of his advice to the Corinthians is opinion and how much doctrine?
On the subject of white shirts and hair length in the modern Church...
Also perhaps the key to this issue is 1 Cor 14:28 "But if there be no
interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to
himself, and to God." Since there cannot be any person competently able to
interpret for a woman... {8^). Actually as I read it he is talking about
receiving revelation for the Church by the proper Priesthood authority.
Chet Cox wrote:
Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul (not
Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women to
RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty
obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either.
*jeep!
--Chet
"Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
are doing the impossible."
On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:12:30 -0800 "John W. Redelfs"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Perhaps Paul was referring to such ordinances as blessing the
Sacrament and
blessing babies. If so, his counsel is just as good today as it was
then. --JWR
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
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Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Since Joseph noted that Paul had been mistranslated -- what Paul (not Paul Osborne) actually advised was that it wasn't correct for women to RULE in church. If you read the rest of Paul's letter, it's pretty obvious that men shouldn't RULE in church either. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:12:30 -0800 "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Perhaps Paul was referring to such ordinances as blessing the > Sacrament and > blessing babies. If so, his counsel is just as good today as it was > > then. --JWR > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Paul Osborne wrote: > Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's "guidance" > should be taken as from the Lord on these matters? > > ___ > > Of course not. I think it is perfectly alright > for the sisters to speak at Church. > > Larry Jackson Classic example of how Bible culture can be out of date! We move with the times and the changing world of Mormonism. You gotta love it! :-)) Perhaps Paul was referring to such ordinances as blessing the Sacrament and blessing babies. If so, his counsel is just as good today as it was then. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
On Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:09:57 GMT Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Stacy Smith: > > Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's "guidance" > should be taken as from the Lord on these matters? > > ___ > > Of course not. I think it is perfectly alright > for the sisters to speak at Church. > > Larry Jackson Classic example of how Bible culture can be out of date! We move with the times and the changing world of Mormonism. You gotta love it! :-)) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Certainly, someone living in sin is not allowed to be baptized. We were teaching a couple who were living together and had a child together. They were from south of the border and there was some economic reason they had not married. Once they married, they were allowed to be baptized (the very next day). I think that John is exactly right on this point. But I think that much of the bible is often taken out of context, or perhaps the context has been removed. I had a friend who was actively gay (and one sadly dies from AIDS). He certainly qualified as a fornicator. I was his straight friend. Even though I was not a member of the Church (nor of any church), it was not wrong then and I do not believe that it would be wrong now. I was a positive influence in his life, and he was not a negative one in mine. I believe that these things need to be dealt with on a case by case basis. Someone who is actively engaged in sin and is promoting sin is someone that I would actively avoid. Perhaps that is what Paul meant by the term "fornicators." One way to find out is to ask in prayer. That'll beat my answer seven ways from Sunday! Jon - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > Rick Mathis wrote: > >What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to > >what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of > >issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at > >that time. He was a product of his culture and training. > > Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or "a man that is called a > brother." Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, > nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into > the Church. Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order > to do missionary work. But only those who have faith unto repentance are > invited into the Church through baptism. That does not mean that we are to > fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church. In fact, unrepentant > fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are. > > Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder. Do faithful > Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts? Do we hang > out in bars? I don't think so. Then why should we associate with > unrepentant fornicators in the Church? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Repentance might be gradual, going from four to three to two to onenicators, and eventually reaching no takers. Jon - Original Message - From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > Stacy Smith wrote: > >More to the point, those Scriptures in and of themselves speak nothing > >about those who have repented of fornication being all right to be > >fellowshipped. Why not? > > Those who have repented of fornication are no longer fornicators. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I can very well understand tests of belief in local priesthood leaders. Saying that, I'm still careful to realize these people are human. I think a higher authority should be called on now such as a seventy to straighten this out if the locals won't do anything. Stacy. At 04:20 PM 09/08/2003 -0500, you wrote: Okay...somewhat along these lines, I've got one for you. A friend of mine was married in the temple about 13 years ago. They didn't have a smooth road (whoever does?), and they were in and out of counseling (LDS Soc. Serv.) but while she was pregnant with their 6th child, she realized that he was drinking to excess (he'd been inactive for a while) and they separated before that baby was born. Their divorce proceedings took a long time because they'd had a business in their names and that complicated things. During the divorce, she was very careful to not even appear as if she were dating. He, however, decided that it would be alright to not only find a girlfriend, but to use money that was to have gone for court-ordered child support to buy this floozy a ring and then shack up with her. And this was before the divorce was final! And while the bishop was aware of the situation, no disciplinary action was taken. It seems to me that he was not only an unrepentant fornicator but an unrepentant adulterer, as well. So, the divorce was final about a year ago and he continued to live with this floozy until February, when they finally got married. Before they married, he decided to go back to church and he was welcomed back with open arms (and at that point, he was shacking up still) and then after they were married, he was allowed to baptize the new wife. He still is not very faithful about paying child support, and she's having to work two jobs to make ends meet. It just blows my mind that no church discipline was undertaken in this case! The ex-wife, my friend, is understandably having a very difficult time with this and her faith in her priesthood leaders has been seriously shaken. I'm trying to help her see that this may be a test for her to see how she will react, but at the same time, I can understand why she's having such a hard time with this. Any suggestions as to how to help her? Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: John W. Redelfs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 9/8/2003 11:49:10 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > Rick Mathis wrote: > >What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to > >what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of > >issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at > >that time. He was a product of his culture and training. > > Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or "a man that is called a > brother." Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, > nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into > the Church. Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order > to do missionary work. But only those who have faith unto repentance are > invited into the Church through baptism. That does not mean that we are to > fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church. In fact, unrepentant > fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are. > > Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder. Do faithful > Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts? Do we hang > out in bars? I don't think so. Then why should we associate with > unrepentant fornicators in the Church? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Heidi Page: ... I've got one for you. Any suggestions as to how to help her? ___ [sick humor alert] Well, according to this discussion, she was obviously living in sin since she was still with her husband, and she should go to her bishop and repent. [end sick humor] Now, disregard that. I suspect she has already spoken with her bishop about her former husband's situation. If she has not, she should. If she has, she should speak with her stake president. And then, hardest of all, she should leave it to them to do as they will. At some point or other, supporting priesthood leaders becomes the hardest thing a person has to do. She should also know that the bishop will be held accountable for things he knew and should have acted upon, but didn't. That accounting is left up to the Lord, of course, with guidance from the bishop's priesthood leader, the stake president, who is also accountable to the Lord for what he does and does not do. These kinds of things make my problems and challenges seem quite simple. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Okay...somewhat along these lines, I've got one for you. A friend of mine was married in the temple about 13 years ago. They didn't have a smooth road (whoever does?), and they were in and out of counseling (LDS Soc. Serv.) but while she was pregnant with their 6th child, she realized that he was drinking to excess (he'd been inactive for a while) and they separated before that baby was born. Their divorce proceedings took a long time because they'd had a business in their names and that complicated things. During the divorce, she was very careful to not even appear as if she were dating. He, however, decided that it would be alright to not only find a girlfriend, but to use money that was to have gone for court-ordered child support to buy this floozy a ring and then shack up with her. And this was before the divorce was final! And while the bishop was aware of the situation, no disciplinary action was taken. It seems to me that he was not only an unrepentant fornicator but an unrepentant adulterer, as well. So, the divorce was final about a year ago and he continued to live with this floozy until February, when they finally got married. Before they married, he decided to go back to church and he was welcomed back with open arms (and at that point, he was shacking up still) and then after they were married, he was allowed to baptize the new wife. He still is not very faithful about paying child support, and she's having to work two jobs to make ends meet. It just blows my mind that no church discipline was undertaken in this case! The ex-wife, my friend, is understandably having a very difficult time with this and her faith in her priesthood leaders has been seriously shaken. I'm trying to help her see that this may be a test for her to see how she will react, but at the same time, I can understand why she's having such a hard time with this. Any suggestions as to how to help her? Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: John W. Redelfs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 9/8/2003 11:49:10 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class > > Rick Mathis wrote: > >What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to > >what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of > >issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at > >that time. He was a product of his culture and training. > > Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or "a man that is called a > brother." Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, > nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into > the Church. Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order > to do missionary work. But only those who have faith unto repentance are > invited into the Church through baptism. That does not mean that we are to > fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church. In fact, unrepentant > fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are. > > Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder. Do faithful > Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts? Do we hang > out in bars? I don't think so. Then why should we associate with > unrepentant fornicators in the Church? > > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "There is no place in this work for those who believe only > in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good > news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Stacy Smith: Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's "guidance" should be taken as from the Lord on these matters? ___ Of course not. I think it is perfectly alright for the sisters to speak at Church. Larry Jackson The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Good point. When Jesus was associating with these people they were definitely outsiders. The general complaint was that he was associating with the lowest class of people. Stacy. At 08:25 AM 09/08/2003 -0800, you wrote: Rick Mathis wrote: What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at that time. He was a product of his culture and training. Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or "a man that is called a brother." Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into the Church. Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order to do missionary work. But only those who have faith unto repentance are invited into the Church through baptism. That does not mean that we are to fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church. In fact, unrepentant fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are. Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder. Do faithful Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts? Do we hang out in bars? I don't think so. Then why should we associate with unrepentant fornicators in the Church? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Rick Mathis wrote: What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at that time. He was a product of his culture and training. Paul was specifically speaking of Church members or "a man that is called a brother." Jesus Christ did not associate with fornicators in the Church, nor did he ever suggest that unrepentant fornicators should be brought into the Church. Obviously a missionary has to associate with sinners in order to do missionary work. But only those who have faith unto repentance are invited into the Church through baptism. That does not mean that we are to fellowship unrepentant fornicators in the Church. In fact, unrepentant fornicators in the Church are to be excommunicated, and generally they are. Our prophets teach that sexual sin is second only to murder. Do faithful Church members associate with drug pushers or cocaine addicts? Do we hang out in bars? I don't think so. Then why should we associate with unrepentant fornicators in the Church? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Stacy Smith wrote: More to the point, those Scriptures in and of themselves speak nothing about those who have repented of fornication being all right to be fellowshipped. Why not? Those who have repented of fornication are no longer fornicators. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
Are you suggesting that not all of Paul's "guidance" should be taken as from the Lord on these matters? Stacy. At 07:34 AM 09/08/2003 -0700, you wrote: At 11:21 PM 9/7/2003 -0800, The BLT wrote: . . . in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant fornicators. Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what? What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at that time. He was a product of his culture and training. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
At 11:21 PM 9/7/2003 -0800, The BLT wrote: . . . in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant fornicators. Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what? What did Jesus do? Did he refuse to associate with sinners? According to what we have in the New Testament, Paul definitely had his own set of issues, including bragging about correcting the President of the Church at that time. He was a product of his culture and training. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
More to the point, those Scriptures in and of themselves speak nothing about those who have repented of fornication being all right to be fellowshipped. Why not? Stacy. At 11:21 PM 09/07/2003 -0800, you wrote: I am fascinated by Church members disagreeing with the scriptures. This morning in Gospel Doctrine class we discussed these verses from 1 Cor. 5:9-13. Perhaps a half dozen people explained why Paul could not possibly mean what he obviously means, namely that in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant fornicators. Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what? --- 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. --- What other scriptures are there that members find difficult? Some are ready for milk while others are ready for meat. The scriptures are nothing if they are not meaty. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Confusion in Gospel Doctrine Class
I am fascinated by Church members disagreeing with the scriptures. This morning in Gospel Doctrine class we discussed these verses from 1 Cor. 5:9-13. Perhaps a half dozen people explained why Paul could not possibly mean what he obviously means, namely that in the Church we shouldn't associate with unrepentant fornicators. Was Paul a self-righteous bigot, or what? --- 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. --- What other scriptures are there that members find difficult? Some are ready for milk while others are ready for meat. The scriptures are nothing if they are not meaty. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "There is no place in this work for those who believe only in the gospel of doom and gloom. The gospel is good news. It is a message of triumph." --Gordon B. Hinckley === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
