Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Jon Spencer]

We do bear the responsibility of any inaction we support when we could have
acted with a reasonable expectation of success.  This sentence begs a long
discussion about such things as "success" but that is not something I have
time to go into right now.  perhaps when I return from our descent into
Linville Gorge.  However, I can respect the position of others who feel
differently for some rather valid reasons (don't stick your nose into
another's problems, etc.).  I simply think that those positions lead to a
world that is not as good as it might otherwise be.

Your statements concerning Pakistan do not stand up to examination.
Somehow, I haven't seen the current leader of Pakistan gas 150,000 of their
people.  I haven't seen Pakistan attack their neighbor, raping and pillaging
as they go. Etc.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq


Why? Since when do those who prefer peace bear responsibility for others'
actions?
Do we also bear the responsibility for the thousands of people who have died
in
Kashmir simply because they were trying to exercise their right to a free
vote in
a democracy (India) from the hands of those who would take this away from
them
(Islamist groups based in Pakistan)?

Again I ask (and keep in mind it's a rhetorical question -- I'm not
suggesting we
invade Pakistan), since every reason the US and the UK have given for the
necessity of armed conflict with Iraq applies in spades to Pakistan, why
aren't we
talking about the invasion of Pakistan?

Are we also to be held responsible for the deaths in China due to the
astonishing
record of the communist government there over the past half century?

Jon Spencer wrote:

> This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
> meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
> support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
> "smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But
for
> those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
> on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining
in
> with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already
killed.
>
> Jon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq
>
> > >Saddam will go.
> > >
> > >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
> >
> >
> > You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
> > the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
> > situation.
> >
> > Paul O
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > 
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
> >
>

> //
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> >
>

> /
> >
> >
>
>

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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Why? Since when do those who prefer peace bear responsibility for others' actions?
Do we also bear the responsibility for the thousands of people who have died in
Kashmir simply because they were trying to exercise their right to a free vote in
a democracy (India) from the hands of those who would take this away from them
(Islamist groups based in Pakistan)?

Again I ask (and keep in mind it's a rhetorical question -- I'm not suggesting we
invade Pakistan), since every reason the US and the UK have given for the
necessity of armed conflict with Iraq applies in spades to Pakistan, why aren't we
talking about the invasion of Pakistan?

Are we also to be held responsible for the deaths in China due to the astonishing
record of the communist government there over the past half century?

Jon Spencer wrote:

> This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
> meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
> support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
> "smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But for
> those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
> on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in
> with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed.
>
> Jon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq
>
> > >Saddam will go.
> > >
> > >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
> >
> >
> > You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
> > the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
> > situation.
> >
> > Paul O
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > 
> > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > Only $9.95 per month!
> > Visit www.juno.com
> >
> >
> 
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> 
> /
> >
> >
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Jon Spencer]

This is perhaps a small correction, and I would assume this is what you
meant:  I am in support of a war against *Saddam*, hopefully with the
support of the Iraqi people.  I am grateful to our leaders for the use of
"smart" weapons, which will minimize the number of innocent deaths.  But for
those who want us to stay home because of the inevitable innocent deaths,
on you hands will be the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents joining in
with the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis Saddam has already killed.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Iraq


> >Saddam will go.
> >
> >And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
>
>
> You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
> the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
> situation.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
>

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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

The Blob and Snail has a good section today -- a backgrounder on the
whole Iraqi inspections situation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/backgrounder/iraq/stories/faq.html

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Larry, here's another quote from you, this time from The Economist
(14/12/02). It's also pretty clear and unequivocal in its language. This
is from an article on p. 40, called "Lethal poker":

"This partly explains why America, controversially, arranged for the
circulating copy of the dossier [that Iraq prepared] (the other copy
stays with the UN monitoring mission) to be taken straight to Washington
rather than distributed to all 15 Security Council members. The American
authorities then copied the documents for the other four permanent
members, who agreed that the ten rotating members of the council would
receive expurgated versions."

Pretty clear: the US abrogated to itself the right to look at the
documents first, even before the other 4 permanent members of the
Security Council, let alone the full SC.

You can refuse to discuss it if you wish, but I don't see how you can
insist on being right in face of such clear facts.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Paul Osborne]

>Saddam will go.
> 
>And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.


You're not wrong this time. His days are numbered and the writing is on
the wall. I'm in favor of a war with Iraq based on what I know about the
situation.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> You are probably wrong.
>
> War is not imminent because we are not ready.  We will be in about one
> month.
>

So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East
earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my "prognostication" has a weak
point, because you're right in principle; the war could be delayed until the US
feels it's ready. Any prognostication is at best an educated guess, and if I'm
wrong, well, it won't be the first time I've had to eat lumpy porridge ;-)

>
> Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
> primarily, and not at the US populace.  I also believe that the US is trying
> very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out
> little hope of that happening.
>

Why? Saddam isn't on Florida's voter list, is he? 

>
> I do not believe that there will be any backing down.  IMNSHO, Bush honestly
> believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to
> Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies.  Saddam will go.
>
> And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
>
> Jon
>

At least we're both covering our cyber-rear ends, so to speak...

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Jon Spencer]

You are probably wrong.

War is not imminent because we are not ready.  We will be in about one
month.

Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
primarily, and not at the US populace.  I also believe that the US is trying
very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out
little hope of that happening.

I do not believe that there will be any backing down.  IMNSHO, Bush honestly
believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to
Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies.  Saddam will go.

And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "zion-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: [ZION] Iraq


I can't say "I told you so" yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.

I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a
war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US
politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd
see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I
could be wrong -- I guess we'll see.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=2002121817270
00163465

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
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may be associated.


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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads
Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from
CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and
near where he's currently attending university):

<>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

I can't say "I told you so" yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.

I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a
war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US
politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd
see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I
could be wrong -- I guess we'll see.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=200212181727000163465

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
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[ZION] Iraq: what's next?

[Marc A. Schindler]

I'm afraid Richard Butler, an Australian member of the last UN
inspection team, is right: the Iraqi reaction to the UN Security Council
resolution on arms inspection is liable to be wishy-washy. What will the
US response be?
http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=50600&id=200211092112000235654

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

I can only say "amen". I'm also upset that I have to pay GST on things I buy from
the States. I think a US plant would rather set up in a maquiladora in Ciudad
Juarez, for instance, where environmental and labour laws are primitive, than allow
those same workers into an Arizona or Texas plant. It's cheaper, and in effect
allows them to export their pollution. As far as I'm concerned NAFTA is only a
half-measure. And even in the areas where it's supposed to work, Mexico and Canada
are at the mercy of the US's domestic protectionist politicians. We have, in
effect, a form of taxation without representation -- witness the ongoing softwood
lumber issue. Mexico and Canada have also lost NAFTA tribunal challenges, but the
US has lost the vast majority of them, but domestic interests push the DoC to
defend domestic interests to the hilt.

So it's a long ways from perfect.

And then we had that bonehead Pat Buchanan, calling Canada "Canucklestan" because
we're supposedly a haven for terrorists and aren't free traders (!) (we supposedly
"manipulate" our currency exchange rate to undercut domestic, US manufacturers). He
was interviewed by an amazingly indulgent Mary Lou Findlay on As It Happens and he
had the nerve to say, in response to Findlay pointing out that all of the 911
bombers had entered the USA directly, and completely legally, by saying, "that
doesn't mean we trust Canada." Talk about your non sequiturs. Talk about your
idjuts. But he serves a purpose: as long as he's around, he makes Bush look like
Solomon.

Don't get me started...

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> At 08:07 PM, Friday, 11/1/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >I'm sorry to hear that. It can be very disruptive and discouraging, and I
> >wish you
> >all the best in finding something you enjoy as soon as possible. And
> >seriously, if
> >you're a high-tech worker or a professional in various other departments, as a
> >citizen of a NAFTA country you can get a job anywhere in the US, Mexico or
> >Canada
> >with very minimal paperwork (far less than what one needs to get an H1B, for
> >instance).
>
> So if NAFTA and its global counterpart, the WTO, are truly in favor of free
> trade why are only high tech workers permitted to go wherever the work
> is?  Free trade DEMANDS a free flow of labor as well as a lowering of
> tariffs.  And when I say a free flow of labor, I am talking about the way
> labor flows from one state to another here in the USA.
>
> The bottom line is:  When supporters of NAFTA and the WTO use the phrase
> free trade, they are being hypocrites.  They have no interest in genuinely
> free trade.  It would break their monopolies.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no
> music, no choreography and the dancers hit each other."
> -- Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want a
world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[John W. Redelfs]

At 08:07 PM, Friday, 11/1/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:

I'm sorry to hear that. It can be very disruptive and discouraging, and I 
wish you
all the best in finding something you enjoy as soon as possible. And 
seriously, if
you're a high-tech worker or a professional in various other departments, as a
citizen of a NAFTA country you can get a job anywhere in the US, Mexico or 
Canada
with very minimal paperwork (far less than what one needs to get an H1B, for
instance).

So if NAFTA and its global counterpart, the WTO, are truly in favor of free 
trade why are only high tech workers permitted to go wherever the work 
is?  Free trade DEMANDS a free flow of labor as well as a lowering of 
tariffs.  And when I say a free flow of labor, I am talking about the way 
labor flows from one state to another here in the USA.

The bottom line is:  When supporters of NAFTA and the WTO use the phrase 
free trade, they are being hypocrites.  They have no interest in genuinely 
free trade.  It would break their monopolies.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no
music, no choreography and the dancers hit each other."
-- Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

Double bummer. Well, look after your own emotional health, too. I've learned the
hard way that physical illness can have all kinds of psychological effects which
in turn exacerbate the physical illness. I wish I had known that before I
"decided" to get sick. :-/

You'll be in our prayers.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> At 07:50 PM 11/1/2002, you wrote:
> > >Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a "throw away remark,"
> >as
> > >after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the
> > >time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed.
> >
> >
> >O dear! I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you get...
> >
> >Paul O
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> First things first. I'm not going to seriously look until I get my wife's
> upcoming operation out of the way. It's a fairly serious one, which will
> take her about six weeks to recuperate so until then I'm Mr. Mom around the
> house.  Job hunting unfortunately has to take a back seat at the moment.
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ". . . it is as much their [The Elders of Israel] duty to study correct
> political principles as well as religion, and to seek and know and
> comprehend the social and political interests of man, and to learn and be
> able to teach that which would be best calculated to promote the interests
> of the world."--John Taylor
>
> /
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

Now, if we can just stop the flow of terrorists from the US into our country that'll 
be even
better.

Grampa Bill wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler wrote:
>
> > Our foreign affairs people
> >are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to travel via 
>the US.
> >
> =
> Grampa Bill comments:
> Well, that's about the best news I've heard lately!
>
> "Don't waste the atonement."
> Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002
>
> Love y'all,
> Grampa Bill in Savannah
>
> /
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its
contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of any
organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Paul Osborne]

>Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a "throw away remark,"
as 
>after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the 
>time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed.


O dear! I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you get...

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

I'm sorry to hear that. It can be very disruptive and discouraging, and I wish you
all the best in finding something you enjoy as soon as possible. And seriously, if
you're a high-tech worker or a professional in various other departments, as a
citizen of a NAFTA country you can get a job anywhere in the US, Mexico or Canada
with very minimal paperwork (far less than what one needs to get an H1B, for
instance). But you need to hit Monster board and similar sites, as well as local
headhunters, to find out where your kind of jobs are.  (www.monster.com or
www.monster.ca)

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a "throw away remark," as
> after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the
> time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed.
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
>
> At 11:29 AM 11/1/2002, you wrote:
> >Well, I'm not a headhunter so can't say, and realize this is a "throw-away
> >remark,"

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Grampa Bill]

Marc A. Schindler wrote:


Our foreign affairs people
are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to travel via the US. 

=
Grampa Bill comments:
   Well, that's about the best news I've heard lately!

"Don't waste the atonement."
Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002

Love y'all,
Grampa Bill in Savannah

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > when it can dip *below* -40oC (which is also, as you probably
> > know, -40oF).
>
> This is unnecessarily cruel. There was no need to preempt my favorite
> smart-alek comment. Meanie.
>

You mean how F really means Foreignheat?

>
> Stephen
>
> Automobiles don't kill people. People driving automobiles kill people.

Which is why we license the drivers and the machines.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Steven Montgomery]

Ok, I was just asking. Yet, it was not entirely a "throw away remark," as 
after four years at a job that was perfect for myself and family at the 
time, I now find myself among the ranks of the unemployed.

--
Steven Montgomery

At 11:29 AM 11/1/2002, you wrote:
Well, I'm not a headhunter so can't say, and realize this is a "throw-away 
remark,"
but since I'm still an Alberta civil servant responsible for high-tech trade
promotion, even though I'm on medical leave, the salesman cells in my blood
(vendocytes, they're called...) are still there. Heaven knows they've tried to
flush them out with transfusions of fresh frozen plasma

But I am proud of our sister ministry's website, Economic Development :
http://www.alberta-canada.com/index.html

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RE: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> when it can dip *below* -40oC (which is also, as you probably
> know, -40oF).

This is unnecessarily cruel. There was no need to preempt my favorite 
smart-alek comment. Meanie.

Stephen

Automobiles don't kill people. People driving automobiles kill people. 
And the sooner we can get all those automobiles off the streets and 
license all automobile salesmen, the sooner we'll feel safe again, like 
we used to.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

Well, I'm not a headhunter so can't say, and realize this is a "throw-away remark,"
but since I'm still an Alberta civil servant responsible for high-tech trade
promotion, even though I'm on medical leave, the salesman cells in my blood
(vendocytes, they're called...) are still there. Heaven knows they've tried to
flush them out with transfusions of fresh frozen plasma

But I am proud of our sister ministry's website, Economic Development :
http://www.alberta-canada.com/index.html
The minister is our own local MLA (Member of the Legislative Assembly), Mark
Norris, one of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet.  I'm technically in
Innovation and Science but our particular group within the ministry (headed by a
LDS) works closely with Economic Development, and I've gone with them on what I've
taken to calling "Viking raids" to Silicon Valley to attract H1B workers to come up
to Canada. Our work permits are much more liberal than H1B visas and we have a
thriving South Asian community in places like Edmonton, Vancouver and Toronto.
Calgary has a thriving Far Eastern (Chinese, Taiwanese, Hong Kong, Malaysian,
Japanese) community.

But bring your woollies. While Calgary's cold isn't quite as extreme as Edmonton's,
it's at a higher altitude, and has very unpredictable weather. Edmonton's is
predictable, and almost every year we get about a 3-week period, usually in
January, when it can dip *below* -40oC (which is also, as you probably know,
-40oF). But it's dry and not as windy here as further south.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> Things have changed indeed. Got any good job openings up there in maple
> leaf land?
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery
>
> At 02:40 PM 10/31/2002, you wrote:
> >You really don't want to get into this again. I'd rather face a guy with a
> >bat than
> >a guy with a firearm. Common sense. Ironically, a Canadian is now in a New
> >York
> >state jail because he brought his hunting rifle with him as he crossed the
> >border
> >to fill up at a gas station 15 metres from the border. The actual border
> >crossing
> >is about a kilometre further down the road, and locals had been using this gas
> >station for years, as the gas prices in Quebec are quite high.
> >
> >But things have changed -- you're losing your freedoms. Our foreign
> >affairs people
> >are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to
> >travel via
> >the US. One, a man originally from Syria, was enroute from Damascus, where
> >he'd
> >been visiting family (the first time he'd been there since he left, as a
> >child),
> >and was deported from JFK back to Syria. Canadian consular officials
> >weren't even
> >informed, in direct violation of the Vienna Convention.
> >
> >It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we pinko socialists have more
> >freedom than
> >you do.
> >
> >"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> >
> > > At 08:46 PM, Wednesday, 10/30/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> > > >Marc A. Schindler
> > > >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> > > >
> > > >Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.
> > >
> > > And people with knives.  And people with rocks.  And people with
> > baseball bats.
> > >
> > > A few years ago here in Ketchikan Ward, a member who had not attended
> > > church since he was a teenager, tried to rob a local man.  There was a
> > > struggle.  The robber picked up a rock and hit his intended victim on the
> > > head, and he died.  And just last year there were 3 or 4 murders.  One of
> > > the victims was just beat to death.  It doesn't take a gun to kill
> > > people.  All it takes is a murderer.  And if we take away their guns, they
> > > will just murder using something else.
> > >
> > > Did anyone read in the newspaper about six months ago about a playground
> > > rampage in Japan?  I think about 13 children we killed, and the murderer
> > > used a knife, not a gun.
> > >
> > > What we need is murderer control, not gun control.
> > >
> > > John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > ===
> > > "I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
> > > and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
> > > our solar system." --Jack Handy
> > > ===
> > > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> > >
> > >
> > /
> > > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > > ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > >
> > /
> > >
> >
> >/
> >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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> >/
> >
>
> 

Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[John W. Redelfs]

At 05:42 PM, Thursday, 10/31/02, Paul Osborne wrote:

Not me, Marc. The damage done by a bat could leave me in terrible shape
with broken bones and a bashed in skull. The gun will probably kill me
and send me on my way to bliss. So, I'll take the gun & bullet, please,
with a coke and an order of french fries too.


Paul, you crack me up.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Paul Osborne]

>You really don't want to get into this again. I'd rather face a guy with
a bat than
>a guy with a firearm. 


Not me, Marc. The damage done by a bat could leave me in terrible shape
with broken bones and a bashed in skull. The gun will probably kill me
and send me on my way to bliss. So, I'll take the gun & bullet, please,
with a coke and an order of french fries too.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Steven Montgomery]

Things have changed indeed. Got any good job openings up there in maple 
leaf land?

--
Steven Montgomery

At 02:40 PM 10/31/2002, you wrote:
You really don't want to get into this again. I'd rather face a guy with a 
bat than
a guy with a firearm. Common sense. Ironically, a Canadian is now in a New 
York
state jail because he brought his hunting rifle with him as he crossed the 
border
to fill up at a gas station 15 metres from the border. The actual border 
crossing
is about a kilometre further down the road, and locals had been using this gas
station for years, as the gas prices in Quebec are quite high.

But things have changed -- you're losing your freedoms. Our foreign 
affairs people
are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to 
travel via
the US. One, a man originally from Syria, was enroute from Damascus, where 
he'd
been visiting family (the first time he'd been there since he left, as a 
child),
and was deported from JFK back to Syria. Canadian consular officials 
weren't even
informed, in direct violation of the Vienna Convention.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we pinko socialists have more 
freedom than
you do.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> At 08:46 PM, Wednesday, 10/30/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >Marc A. Schindler
> >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> >
> >Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.
>
> And people with knives.  And people with rocks.  And people with 
baseball bats.
>
> A few years ago here in Ketchikan Ward, a member who had not attended
> church since he was a teenager, tried to rob a local man.  There was a
> struggle.  The robber picked up a rock and hit his intended victim on the
> head, and he died.  And just last year there were 3 or 4 murders.  One of
> the victims was just beat to death.  It doesn't take a gun to kill
> people.  All it takes is a murderer.  And if we take away their guns, they
> will just murder using something else.
>
> Did anyone read in the newspaper about six months ago about a playground
> rampage in Japan?  I think about 13 children we killed, and the murderer
> used a knife, not a gun.
>
> What we need is murderer control, not gun control.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
> and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
> our solar system." --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> 
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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

You really don't want to get into this again. I'd rather face a guy with a bat than
a guy with a firearm. Common sense. Ironically, a Canadian is now in a New York
state jail because he brought his hunting rifle with him as he crossed the border
to fill up at a gas station 15 metres from the border. The actual border crossing
is about a kilometre further down the road, and locals had been using this gas
station for years, as the gas prices in Quebec are quite high.

But things have changed -- you're losing your freedoms. Our foreign affairs people
are advising Canadian citizens who were born in the Middle East not to travel via
the US. One, a man originally from Syria, was enroute from Damascus, where he'd
been visiting family (the first time he'd been there since he left, as a child),
and was deported from JFK back to Syria. Canadian consular officials weren't even
informed, in direct violation of the Vienna Convention.

It's a pretty sad state of affairs when we pinko socialists have more freedom than
you do.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> At 08:46 PM, Wednesday, 10/30/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:
> >Marc A. Schindler
> >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> >
> >Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.
>
> And people with knives.  And people with rocks.  And people with baseball bats.
>
> A few years ago here in Ketchikan Ward, a member who had not attended
> church since he was a teenager, tried to rob a local man.  There was a
> struggle.  The robber picked up a rock and hit his intended victim on the
> head, and he died.  And just last year there were 3 or 4 murders.  One of
> the victims was just beat to death.  It doesn't take a gun to kill
> people.  All it takes is a murderer.  And if we take away their guns, they
> will just murder using something else.
>
> Did anyone read in the newspaper about six months ago about a playground
> rampage in Japan?  I think about 13 children we killed, and the murderer
> used a knife, not a gun.
>
> What we need is murderer control, not gun control.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
> and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
> our solar system." --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
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>

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Re: [ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[John W. Redelfs]

At 08:46 PM, Wednesday, 10/30/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote:

Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.


And people with knives.  And people with rocks.  And people with baseball bats.

A few years ago here in Ketchikan Ward, a member who had not attended 
church since he was a teenager, tried to rob a local man.  There was a 
struggle.  The robber picked up a rock and hit his intended victim on the 
head, and he died.  And just last year there were 3 or 4 murders.  One of 
the victims was just beat to death.  It doesn't take a gun to kill 
people.  All it takes is a murderer.  And if we take away their guns, they 
will just murder using something else.

Did anyone read in the newspaper about six months ago about a playground 
rampage in Japan?  I think about 13 children we killed, and the murderer 
used a knife, not a gun.

What we need is murderer control, not gun control.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more
and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of
our solar system." --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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[ZION] Iraq: letters in Meridian

[Marc A. Schindler]

Some interesting letters on both sides of the issue in the latest
Meridian magazine: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/letters/index.html

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Guns don’t kill people; people with guns kill people

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > I believe that in general prophecies tend to be broader than just
> > one issue, and it's we members who narrow them down (all of us, or
> > most of us).
>
> I tend to agree with this. Interesting, then, that you wrote:
>
> > and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear
> > and unamibiguous.
>
> Generality of application implies some ambiguity, at least to me. I'm
> curious what you thought was the specific application of Elder Nelson's
> "clear and unambiguous" words.
>

Then let me clarify what I mean by the two words. "General" to me doesn't mean
vague, but rather refers to scope, either time-related, geography-related,
whatever. "Not limited to time, place or person," let's say. "Ambiguous" to me
refers to the clarity of meaning. So one can have an unambiguous but general
statement. They're not easy to craft, but I believe that's how prophets prefer to
express themselves.

>
> > It's my personal belief that his words can be considered a
> > criticism of US foreign policy,
>
> His words can be considered any number of things -- a criticism of US
> foreign policy, an endorsement of expedient and necessary political
> actions, a recipe for walnut fudge. The more important question, I
> think, is what Elder Nelson actually meant. Perhaps you believe he
> intended to criticize US actions. I doubt it, but it's possible. But I'm
> still wondering what you meant when you wrote that the Saints "still
> [do] 'not get it'" after hearing his talk. I personally don't know any
> Saints, in the flesh or in cyberspace, who believe that war is generally
> a good thing; so what is it that you think the Saints don't get?
>

That not only war, but militarism, are not healthy options. Militarism is the
consideration of military actions before they ought to be considered, according
to the scriptures, as I read it. I think I said something similar in another
response, so I'll let it go at that.

>
> -Marc-
> > So, if the Economist article used emotional words, then I can take
> > what you just wrote and say, because you used an emotional word
> > like "tremendous" that you're biased,
>
> My charge of bias was not based on a single occurrence of a term, but
> rather on the whole tenor of the article and the slant they gave it.
>

But you didnt' say that. But thanks for clarifying your, er, general statement
;-)

>
> > and I don't have to listen to you?
>
> Naturally you don't. And if you do wish to listen to me, I am quite sure
> you formulate in your mind's eye a vision of what you believe my
> viewpoint (or bias) to be, in order to better understand what I write.
>

I happily (if admittedly, at times, somewhat impatiently) listen to you because
there's something in it for me -- you help me hone my words and craft my
arguments better, if nothing else.

>
> > And fwiw, I think you're giving yourself too much credit.
>
> The curse of the responsible. If not me, who?
>
> > But wait a minute. You claim to have already critiqued the
> > article. Why do you need a URL to it again?
>
> To review it and see if my criticisms were justified. I don't remember
> it being only a week ago, and my memory of the particulars is hazy.
>

It should be on the archives. If you really want me to, I'll repost it, but
because it was premium material, I have to do more than post a URL (which I don't
mind; a minor sin -- just in case y'all were labouring under the understandable
but false assumption that I'm perfect) ;-)

>
> -Stephen-
> > I notice you never bothered responding to my dismantling of your
> > extraordinary claim that Latter-day Saints are necessarily
> > pacifists.
>
> -Marc-
> > In several senses of the definition you gave. Not all of them.
>
> We both know that the generally-accepted and understood meaning of the
> term "pacifist" is one who rejects warfare under all circumstances.

Well, all it takes to demolish a general argument is one exception. You carefully
avoided that kind of argument, but, no, I did not have the "Quaker's" definition
in mind; I actually had in mind the definition given in D&C (134 iirc; I'd have
to look it up). "to renounce war" is definitely a pacific approach, I think we're
now just arguing over connotations. After all, Elder Nelson didn't call for a
jihad (or its English equivalent, a crusade).

> I am
> pretty sure you realized this when you wrote what you did. If you had
> another, narrower definition of "pacifist" in mind, it was incumbent
> upon you to define your terms. As I demonstrated, none of the dictionary
> definitions reasonably applied to Latter-day Saints.
>

I disagree. I pointed out that in your first dictionary definition, it gave 3
meanings, and I said "renounce war" was in keeping with the first 2, but not
necessarily the 3rd definition. And we can play dictionary games if you want. I
have a few I could turn to, too. But to what end? If one doesn't understand what
another says, the best approach is to ask, not throw a dictio

RE: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> I believe that in general prophecies tend to be broader than just
> one issue, and it's we members who narrow them down (all of us, or
> most of us).

I tend to agree with this. Interesting, then, that you wrote:

> and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear
> and unamibiguous.

Generality of application implies some ambiguity, at least to me. I'm 
curious what you thought was the specific application of Elder Nelson's 
"clear and unambiguous" words.

> It's my personal belief that his words can be considered a
> criticism of US foreign policy,

His words can be considered any number of things -- a criticism of US 
foreign policy, an endorsement of expedient and necessary political 
actions, a recipe for walnut fudge. The more important question, I 
think, is what Elder Nelson actually meant. Perhaps you believe he 
intended to criticize US actions. I doubt it, but it's possible. But I'm 
still wondering what you meant when you wrote that the Saints "still 
[do] 'not get it'" after hearing his talk. I personally don't know any 
Saints, in the flesh or in cyberspace, who believe that war is generally 
a good thing; so what is it that you think the Saints don't get?

-Marc-
> So, if the Economist article used emotional words, then I can take
> what you just wrote and say, because you used an emotional word
> like "tremendous" that you're biased,

My charge of bias was not based on a single occurrence of a term, but 
rather on the whole tenor of the article and the slant they gave it.

> and I don't have to listen to you?

Naturally you don't. And if you do wish to listen to me, I am quite sure 
you formulate in your mind's eye a vision of what you believe my 
viewpoint (or bias) to be, in order to better understand what I write.

> And fwiw, I think you're giving yourself too much credit.

The curse of the responsible. If not me, who?

> But wait a minute. You claim to have already critiqued the
> article. Why do you need a URL to it again?

To review it and see if my criticisms were justified. I don't remember 
it being only a week ago, and my memory of the particulars is hazy.

-Stephen-
> I notice you never bothered responding to my dismantling of your
> extraordinary claim that Latter-day Saints are necessarily
> pacifists.

-Marc-
> In several senses of the definition you gave. Not all of them.

We both know that the generally-accepted and understood meaning of the 
term "pacifist" is one who rejects warfare under all circumstances. I am 
pretty sure you realized this when you wrote what you did. If you had 
another, narrower definition of "pacifist" in mind, it was incumbent 
upon you to define your terms. As I demonstrated, none of the dictionary 
definitions reasonably applied to Latter-day Saints.

> I don't mean to imply that LDS have to be conscientious objectors,
> but we are members of a church whose official policy is to
> proclaim peace and renounce war. That can certainly be said to be
> a pacifist point of view.

Not according to the dictionary.

> As I've said several times, I dismissed his source as careless and
> therefore biased.

I had not yet noticed that your dismissal of his source as "biased" was 
based on its "carelessness", though I know you mentioned that from the 
beginning. Carelessness and bias are two separate and unrelated things; 
if you consider his article biased because of carelessness, then that's 
even less defensible.

> So what am I supposed to think about an article that uses vague
> and 2nd hand sources? At least the Economist cites its sources.

Perhaps that they're dishonest, or perhaps that they're careless. If the 
former, then they're certainly biased; if the latter, then perhaps not. 
(Okay, we both know a truly "unbiased" viewpoint is unachievable; but 
there's a big difference between citing a true but unverifiable source 
and making something up out of whole cloth.)

-Stephen-
> I've demonstrated in some detail how I believe you're twisting
> Elder Nelson's words. Please return the courtesy.

-Marc-
> Well, if you insist. I've demonstrated in some detail how I
> believe your're twisting Elder Nelson's and my words.

Where? Not in this post, nor any other I've read. You have explained how 
I have mistaken your meaning (which I maintain was more due to 
authorship than to reader error), but you haven't even touched on how 
I'm supposedly twisting Elder Nelson's words.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > Stephen, I'm not going to engage in point-by-point games here.
> > Life's too short,
>
> Not that I necessarily disagree with the above, but if that's how you
> feel, why are you so willing to engage in "point-by-point games" at
> other times?
>

I'm human. I'm inconsistent. So sue me. Seriously, as I answered in another post,
I don't have enough information yet, I don't believe, to address this talk
directly to the Iraq situation per se. I believe that in general prophecies tend
to be broader than just one issue, and it's we members who narrow them down (all
of us, or most of us).

>
> > and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear
> > and unamibiguous.
>
> And he clearly, unambiguously did not mention Iraq.
>

As I did not. It's my personal belief that his words can be considered a
criticism of US foreign policy, but I'm not trying to put words into Elder
Nelson's mouth. Incidentally, it's a bit ironic, because I'm not so sure there's
actually going to be a war with Iraq. I think Bush's tactics are not direct here.
I have an inkling of what I think he might be up to, but I can't read his mind
and it's too soon to tell. Let's just say that I think he's trying to kill more
than one bird with one stone, and there'll be little violence on the streets of
Baghdad in the near future.

>
> > The Economist article, which I used (not having anything to do
> > with Elder Nelson's talk -- this occurred before conference
> > weekend) was specific and it was unbiased.
>
> Seems I recently critiqued an Economist article you referenced and
> demonstrated its tremendous bias.

So, if the Economist article used emotional words, then I can take what you just
wrote and say, because you used an emotional word like "tremendous" that you're
biased, and I don't have to listen to you? Actually I value your input, even when
I think it's biased and even when I'm arguing against it. And fwiw, I think
you're giving yourself too much credit.

> I think you'll have a hard time
> maintaining that the Economist's articles are unbiased. But maybe I'm
> wrong. Can you give a URL to the specific article you're citing?
>

I actually posted the whole thing here. It was only a week ago.

But wait a minute. You claim to have already critiqued the article. Why do you
need a URL to it again?

>
> > There seems to be some confusion between using emotional words and
> > bias which it seems you and Dan both need to clarify in your own
> > minds to improve your critical reading skills, imho.
>
> Well, it's easy for you to claim my "critical reading skills" aren't
> where they should be. You certainly might be right. But I notice you
> never bothered responding to my dismantling of your extraordinary claim
> that Latter-day Saints are necessarily pacifists.
>

In several senses of the definition you gave. Not all of them. I don't mean to
imply that LDS have to be conscientious objectors, but we are members of a church
whose official policy is to proclaim peace and renounce war. That can certainly
be said to be a pacifist point of view. You don't have to fit ALL definitions of
a word (not in English, a notoriously ambiguous language at best) to be able to
use it. Else why bother even to try using words? Let's communicate in source
code.

>
> > Anyone paying attention to the thread could have figured this out,
> > and seen that Dan and I were interpreting data differently.
>
> Apparently that's not the case. I was indeed "paying attention to the
> thread", and it looked to me like you were dismissing his sources as
> biased and proclaiming your own to be unbiased.
>

As I've said several times, I dismissed his source as careless and therefore
biased. That's an important distinction. His source said that according to the
Israeli military intelligence (no citation given), Jane's (no citation given)
said such-and-such. I did a search of Jane's website (I can't afford the hard
copy -- their subs are hundreds of dollars a year, but I did occasionally look at
it in the provincial government library, so am familiar with the publication) and
found not a single reference to *any* Israeli military intelligence reference to
anything. So what am I supposed to think about an article that uses vague and 2nd
hand sources? At least the Economist cites its sources.

>
> > I thought I could ease myself out of this by leaving the last word
> > to Dan and he abused what was meant to be a gentlemanly gesture by
> > calling me a liar.
>
> I don't believe Dan was calling you a liar, though of course I could be
> wrong. That would be out of character for Dan. I think he was applying
> that term to those who author slanted news articles and present them as
> unbiased. And fwiw, I don't think it's particularly gentlemanly to say,
> in effect, "I'm right and you're wrong, and if you can't see that then
> you're blind as a bat, but I'll give you the last word."
>

You put that in quotation marks. That implies I wrote 

RE: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> Stephen, I'm not going to engage in point-by-point games here.
> Life's too short,

Not that I necessarily disagree with the above, but if that's how you 
feel, why are you so willing to engage in "point-by-point games" at 
other times?

> and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear
> and unamibiguous.

And he clearly, unambiguously did not mention Iraq.

> The Economist article, which I used (not having anything to do
> with Elder Nelson's talk -- this occurred before conference
> weekend) was specific and it was unbiased.

Seems I recently critiqued an Economist article you referenced and 
demonstrated its tremendous bias. I think you'll have a hard time 
maintaining that the Economist's articles are unbiased. But maybe I'm 
wrong. Can you give a URL to the specific article you're citing?

> There seems to be some confusion between using emotional words and
> bias which it seems you and Dan both need to clarify in your own
> minds to improve your critical reading skills, imho.

Well, it's easy for you to claim my "critical reading skills" aren't 
where they should be. You certainly might be right. But I notice you 
never bothered responding to my dismantling of your extraordinary claim 
that Latter-day Saints are necessarily pacifists.

> Anyone paying attention to the thread could have figured this out,
> and seen that Dan and I were interpreting data differently.

Apparently that's not the case. I was indeed "paying attention to the 
thread", and it looked to me like you were dismissing his sources as 
biased and proclaiming your own to be unbiased.

> I thought I could ease myself out of this by leaving the last word
> to Dan and he abused what was meant to be a gentlemanly gesture by
> calling me a liar.

I don't believe Dan was calling you a liar, though of course I could be 
wrong. That would be out of character for Dan. I think he was applying 
that term to those who author slanted news articles and present them as 
unbiased. And fwiw, I don't think it's particularly gentlemanly to say, 
in effect, "I'm right and you're wrong, and if you can't see that then 
you're blind as a bat, but I'll give you the last word."

> I'm off this thread. Elder Nelson's words are very clear, and
> if you want to twist them so as to make yourself feel more
> comfortable, fine.

I've demonstrated in some detail how I believe you're twisting Elder 
Nelson's words. Please return the courtesy.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen, I'm not going to engage in point-by-point games here. Life's too short,
and Elder Nelson's words were, as far as I'm concerned, very clear and
unamibiguous. Dan, in the course of his discussion, which wasn't just about Elder
Nelson's talk, has used two sources. I criticized the first one for being vague
and undependable and demonstrated why -- the vague, 2nd-hand  that the author in
his source used in a referernce to Jane's couldn't be found in a search on Jane's
site. The Economist article, which I used (not having anything to do with Elder
Nelson's talk -- this occurred before conference weekend) was specific and it was
unbiased. There seems to be some confusion between using emotional words and bias
which it seems you and Dan both need to clarify in your own minds to improve your
critical reading skills, imho. But you take your information from where you wish.

Anyone paying attention to the thread could have figured this out, and seen that
Dan and I were interpreting data differently. That's all. I thought I could ease
myself out of this by leaving the last word to Dan and he abused what was meant
to be a gentlemanly gesture by calling me a liar.

I suppose that's not "biased".

I'm off this thread. Elder Nelson's words are very clear, and if you want to
twist them so as to make yourself feel more comfortable, fine.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the
> > Ensign. I myself have a difficult time seeing how people can
> > still, with all due respect, "not get it" after hearing this talk.
>
> And I have a difficult time seeing why people are so eager to twist an
> apostle's words into supporting their political tastes, rather than try
> to glean the truth and wisdom he was teaching. I suppose we both should
> work on our ability to understand.
>
> > He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce war" and emphasized that
> > it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would be the
> > peacemakers in the region.
>
> And therefore...?
>
> > There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS.
>
> >From The American Heritage Dictionary (1985):
>
>  1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be
>  settled peacefully.
>  2a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving
>  disputes.
>  b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in
>  military action.
>
> #1 does partially apply to Saints, of course, but it is so obvious that
> even the most hawk-like Saint agrees that disputes *should* be settled
> peacefully. Disputes involving aggression by enemies against you
> obviously *cannot* be settled peacefully. Both parts of definition 2 are
> anti-Mormon.

> >From Merriam-Webster's online (www.m-w.com):
>
>  Main Entry: pac·i·fism
>  Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
>  Function: noun
>  Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
>  Date: 1902
>  1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling
>  disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or
>  religious grounds
>  2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance
>
> Neither of these definitions describes the Church's position.
>
> The definion at www.dictionary.com is word-for-word identical to that of
> the American Heritage definition quoted above.
>
> So you're wrong, Marc. Mormons are *not* pacifist, or at least they
> should not be. Quite the contrary.
>
> Stephen
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the
> Ensign. I myself have a difficult time seeing how people can
> still, with all due respect, "not get it" after hearing this talk.

And I have a difficult time seeing why people are so eager to twist an 
apostle's words into supporting their political tastes, rather than try 
to glean the truth and wisdom he was teaching. I suppose we both should 
work on our ability to understand.

> He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce war" and emphasized that
> it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would be the
> peacemakers in the region.

And therefore...?

> There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS.

>From The American Heritage Dictionary (1985):

 1. The belief that disputes between nations should and can be
 settled peacefully.
 2a. Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving
 disputes.
 b. Such opposition demonstrated by refusal to participate in
 military action.

#1 does partially apply to Saints, of course, but it is so obvious that 
even the most hawk-like Saint agrees that disputes *should* be settled 
peacefully. Disputes involving aggression by enemies against you 
obviously *cannot* be settled peacefully. Both parts of definition 2 are 
anti-Mormon.

>From Merriam-Webster's online (www.m-w.com):

 Main Entry: pac·i·fism 
 Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
 Function: noun
 Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
 Date: 1902
 1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling
 disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or
 religious grounds
 2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance

Neither of these definitions describes the Church's position.

The definion at www.dictionary.com is word-for-word identical to that of 
the American Heritage definition quoted above.

So you're wrong, Marc. Mormons are *not* pacifist, or at least they 
should not be. Quite the contrary.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[vicgh25]

September 11th was a defining moment in history, it showed that America could be 
attacked within her own borders; it didn't need an ICBM as has been the thinking.

It would be tragic that when (not if) it happens again; and what could be the outcome 
(will cities not buildings lay waste)?

Lastely, could it have been prevented? Will the thinking of no war still be present?

Vic


--- "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the Ensign. I mysel=
>f have a difficult time seeing how people can still, with all due respect, =
>"not
>get it" after hearing this talk. He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce wa=
>r" and emphasized that it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who=
> would
>be the peacemakers in the region. I think it's pretty hard to wriggle out o=
>f that one.  And to your BoM reading I hope you add some selective D&C read=
>ing,
>too, especially a revelation given at the height of persecution of the Sain=
>ts.
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Within the first chapters of the Book of Mormon it talks about Nephi chop=
>ping off the head of Laban.
>>
>> Toward the end of the Book of Mormon it talks about Mormon and Moroni war=
>ring against the Lamanites.
>>
>> In between, there is bloodshed and it gives me the impression as long as =
>one is fighting for ones homeland and ones family, than war becomes accepta=
>ble.
>>
>> Osama and is band of terrorists are warring against the U.S.
>>
>> It appears to me that is only a matter of time before Saddam does the sam=
>e.
>>
>
>I've foreborn specific comment on your questions -- I have a general questi=
>on at the end -- but it seems to some people to be only a matter of time be=
>fore
>N. Korea wars against the U.S., so why isn't the US government amassing arm=
>aments in that area? Also, if you're concerned about military dictatorships=
> with
>WMD, why continue to give billions every year to Pakistan, which *already h=
>as* nuclear weapons -- tested ones, ready to use. Seems to me you should bo=
>mb
>Pakistan back to the stone age before you worry about Iraq.
>
>>
>> Should a nation sit back and let it happen or should there be a response?
>>
>> As LDS, and with what the contents of the Book of Mormon says, in all hon=
>esty; is there such a thing as a pacifist Mormon?
>>
>
>There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS. And for what it's worth, I think a=
>lmost every one of your implied assumptions in your question is wrong.
>
>>
>> Vic
>
>But perhaps I've been too shy in expressing my opinion ;-)
>
>--
>Marc A. Schindler
>Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
>
>"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and=
> falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
>--Michelangelo Buonarroti
>
>Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the auth=
>or solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author=92s
>employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associ=
>ated.
>
>///=
>//
>///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
>///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
>///=
>//
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Marc A. Schindler]

Except for the problem of western militarism.

Gary Smith wrote:

> There is an easy solution to the Iraq problem. Instead of invading, just
> drop a major 20,000 ton bomb on one of his presidential compounds and
> flatten it. Then tell Saddam that every week we'll flatten another
> compound until he agrees to let inspectors visit everywhere. Either way,
> the problem will eventually go away
>
> K'aya K'ama,
> Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
> .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
> "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
> Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
>
> 
>
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and
falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Paul Osborne]

>There is an easy solution to the Iraq problem. Instead of invading, just
>drop a major 20,000 ton bomb on one of his presidential compounds and
>flatten it. Then tell Saddam that every week we'll flatten another
>compound until he agrees to let inspectors visit everywhere. Either way,
>the problem will eventually go away


That's kind of what I was thinking. But I recommend bunker buster bombs
first and then slam it with a tactical nuclear bomb. 

Paul O
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[ZION] Iraq and War

[Gary Smith]

There is an easy solution to the Iraq problem. Instead of invading, just
drop a major 20,000 ton bomb on one of his presidential compounds and
flatten it. Then tell Saddam that every week we'll flatten another
compound until he agrees to let inspectors visit everywhere. Either way,
the problem will eventually go away

K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Marc A. Schindler]

Just read over Elder Nelson's talk when it comes out in the Ensign. I myself have a 
difficult time seeing how people can still, with all due respect, "not
get it" after hearing this talk. He said "as a CHURCH we should renounce war" and 
emphasized that it would be the descendants of Ishmael and Jacob who would
be the peacemakers in the region. I think it's pretty hard to wriggle out of that one. 
 And to your BoM reading I hope you add some selective D&C reading,
too, especially a revelation given at the height of persecution of the Saints.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Within the first chapters of the Book of Mormon it talks about Nephi chopping off 
>the head of Laban.
>
> Toward the end of the Book of Mormon it talks about Mormon and Moroni warring 
>against the Lamanites.
>
> In between, there is bloodshed and it gives me the impression as long as one is 
>fighting for ones homeland and ones family, than war becomes acceptable.
>
> Osama and is band of terrorists are warring against the U.S.
>
> It appears to me that is only a matter of time before Saddam does the same.
>

I've foreborn specific comment on your questions -- I have a general question at the 
end -- but it seems to some people to be only a matter of time before
N. Korea wars against the U.S., so why isn't the US government amassing armaments in 
that area? Also, if you're concerned about military dictatorships with
WMD, why continue to give billions every year to Pakistan, which *already has* nuclear 
weapons -- tested ones, ready to use. Seems to me you should bomb
Pakistan back to the stone age before you worry about Iraq.

>
> Should a nation sit back and let it happen or should there be a response?
>
> As LDS, and with what the contents of the Book of Mormon says, in all honesty; is 
>there such a thing as a pacifist Mormon?
>

There can be nothing BUT a pacifist LDS. And for what it's worth, I think almost every 
one of your implied assumptions in your question is wrong.

>
> Vic

But perhaps I've been too shy in expressing my opinion ;-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling 
short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s
employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[Paul Osborne]

>It appears to me that is only a matter of time before Saddam does the
same.
> 
>Should a nation sit back and let it happen or should there be a
response?



Saddam is a stupid idiot. I don't think he is any threat to the USA. I
think America needs to mind there own business and let the other
countries fight it out. 

But, if Saddam should be found to have attacked American soil or
property, then I am all for firing a nuclear bomb right down his throat.
Then the scripture will be fulfilled: 

"Babylon is no more".

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Iraq and War

[vicgh25]

Within the first chapters of the Book of Mormon it talks about Nephi chopping off the 
head of Laban.

Toward the end of the Book of Mormon it talks about Mormon and Moroni warring against 
the Lamanites.

In between, there is bloodshed and it gives me the impression as long as one is 
fighting for ones homeland and ones family, than war becomes acceptable.

Osama and is band of terrorists are warring against the U.S.

It appears to me that is only a matter of time before Saddam does the same.

Should a nation sit back and let it happen or should there be a response?

As LDS, and with what the contents of the Book of Mormon says, in all honesty; is 
there such a thing as a pacifist Mormon?


Vic



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[ZION] Iraq and War

[Gary Smith]

I definitely find it interesting how his talk should bring the saints
back to where we should be: peacemakers. I have pondered much about the
war w/Iraq over the past month or two, and have concluded that I'll
support my country in whatever it decides, however I think we should back
off of war until we are actually threatened.
K'aya K'ama,
Gerald/gary  Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www
.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html
"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free."  -
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


The "peacenik" JWR wrote:
> I felt that it should throw a bucket of cold water on some of those
saints who are in favor of a war with Iraq. He said that as a Church we
have to remain neutral and our members have to obey the laws of the land
even if that means fighting in a war.  But as individuals we don't have
to be so circumspect.  On a personal level we are to oppose war and be
peacemakers


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Re: [ZION] Iraq and war

[Marc A. Schindler]

I don't mean to belabour the point, but I'm sometimes amazed at the things you and I 
agree on. This could be bad for your reputation, you know

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

>
> I felt that it should throw a bucket of cold water on some of those saints who are 
>in favor of a war with Iraq. He said that as a Church we have to remain neutral and 
>our members have to obey the laws of the land even if that means fighting in a war.  
>But as individuals we don't have to be so circumspect.  On a personal level we are to 
>oppose war and be peacemakers.
>
> I thought Elder Nelson's remarks would put to rest the recent thread on war vs. 
>peace with Iraq.  We'll see if anyone was listening.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling 
short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and war

[John W. Redelfs]

At 03:48 PM 10/5/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
>Elder Russell M. Nelson's talk -- did you notice his emphasis on how
>Ishmael and Jacob's cooperation following their father's death should
>serve as an example, that their present-day descendants should emerge as
>peacemakers in the region?
>
>What think ye?

I felt that it should throw a bucket of cold water on some of those saints who are in 
favor of a war with Iraq. He said that as a Church we have to remain neutral and our 
members have to obey the laws of the land even if that means fighting in a war.  But 
as individuals we don't have to be so circumspect.  On a personal level we are to 
oppose war and be peacemakers.

I thought Elder Nelson's remarks would put to rest the recent thread on war vs. peace 
with Iraq.  We'll see if anyone was listening.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against 
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the 
darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in 
high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12)
*
"All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR

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[ZION] Iraq and war

[Marc A. Schindler]

Elder Russell M. Nelson's talk -- did you notice his emphasis on how
Ishmael and Jacob's cooperation following their father's death should
serve as an example, that their present-day descendants should emerge as
peacemakers in the region?

What think ye?

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high
and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our
mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Iraq and war

[Jon Spencer]

Actually, I do agree that this is a big mistake.  Since probably at most
only 1/2 of your armed forces are fighting forces, when the Mexican army
reaches your border with the US, you may really miss those 2,000.

Jon

Marc A. Schindler wrote:

Canada ready to send 2 000 troops along with US forces to Iraq (this is
about the same that was committed in the Afghan conflict). Big mistake,
imo. But you probably already knew that.

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[ZION] Iraq and war

[Marc A. Schindler]

Canada ready to send 2 000 troops along with US forces to Iraq (this is
about the same that was committed in the Afghan conflict). Big mistake,
imo. But you probably already knew that.

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/story.asp?id={46C902C1-54EA-48C3-AF0D-328588B036B8}

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high
and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our
mark."
--Michelangelo Buonarroti

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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