[ZION] Anyone else not getting Topica messages?
Hi fellow Zionites, I have not been receiving any Topica messages from any of John Redelf's lists in my email. While I can go online and view them just fine, and I can also post to them via email, none of the posts are being mailed to me as I had specified in my settings on Topica. Anyone else having or had the same problems? If so, how can I fix it? I tried to reset my settings on Topica, but to no avail. Please send suggestions to [EMAIL PROTECTED], since replies to [EMAIL PROTECTED] will not arrive in my mailbox. Thank you for your help! Geoff / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] DC sniper
I am glad that your mother listened and then harkened to that prompting she received. The best we can do in a situation like this is to pray for our families, the victims and their families, and especially for the sniper (or snipers) - that they may come to their senses and realize the horrible crimes they have committed. I pray that the perpetrators will be caught soon. As for theories, I used to think that this was a terrorist act, but now I am not sure. In fact, I was convinced that there were perhaps more than one team involved, striving to create fear and panic in the Capitol and surrounding areas. The ransom note, however, has thrown me. I don't know what to make of it - whether it is legitimate or whether it is a decoy. Geoff Geoff Fowler Network Server Engineer Weber State University [EMAIL PROTECTED] 801-626-6088 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/23/02 04:18PM What do you all think about the DC sniper? Anyone have any theories on it? I'm not sure what to think except that I'm just sick about it. My parents and one of my sisters live in the area...I grew up there...I'm just a WEE bit worried. On the other hand, I know about eternal families and that if anything ever happened, we are sealed as a family. But I'm still worried about them. My mom only does shopping now at a secure military base; she figures she's a lot safer there (side note: two weeks ago, on the day the shooting happened in Manassas, she was planning on doing some shopping there and a distinct impression came to her to not go, so she didn't. It was that afternoon that another shooting happened in the area where she would have been). My sister and her roommates only go out when necessary. When she buys gas, she starts pumping and then ducks (she lives in Fairfax). What do I do? Heidi the fair -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Hello, Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew and Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and I figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I am looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear. I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well. There was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today? Thank you for your input, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Mormon's words on war
Gary appropriately wrote: It was actually chapter 7 of Mormon. Thank you - I appreciate the correction. :) Captain Moroni DID clear the wilderness areas of Lamanites. I agree that Captain Moroni did clear the wilderness. However, he did so under the pretext of defending his people. I guess I should have reworded my sentence. I believe that God commanded him (or gave His approval) to clear out the east wilderness. Why? Because he was trying to preserve the liberties and lives of the Nephites. I don't think that it was necessarily a war of aggression, but that doesn't really matter. See the reference to DC 98 I have included below for more details on why this is the case. We read in Helaman 6: 37 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did hunt the band of robbers of Gadianton; and they did preach the word of God among the more wicked part of them, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed from among the Lamanites. The righteous Lamanites hunted them. That suggests going into the territories of the Gadiantons. I always believed that the Gadiantons were in the midst of the Lamanites. Additionally, if you look closely at how the Lamanites actually hunted the Gadiantons, they preached the word of God among THE MORE WICKED PART OF THEM, insomuch that this band of robbers was utterly destroyed FROM AMONG THE LAMANITES. (emphasis added by me). I am sure that those that did not repent of their Gadianton ways were probably executed, but it appears that the more part of them repented because of the preaching of the work of God, and this is how the Gadiantons dwelling in the midst of the Lamanites were destroyed. Notice also that the Lamanites did not go among the Nephites with their armies and attempt to destroy the Gadianton bands living in Nephite lands. At least, that is how the scriptures appear to be written. So the command to bury weapons of war has always been a condition given to the converted Lamanites, as a sign of their repentance. Those who had the covenant (Nephites/us), have never been told by God to bury our weapons. We've been commanded to seek peace with other nations, but defend against them. And when it comes to Gadianton Robbers, the righteous peoples in the BoM hunted them into extinction. I appreciate these comments. Actually, I am grateful for all of them - I have never thought about the burying their weapons of war as a covenant only between the Lord and the Lamanites, although it makes sense to me. I know that we are supposed to defend ourselves. However, I have a difficult time reconciling what we (meaning the United States) are currently doing in the world and the words given to us by the Savior through Joseph Smith in section 98 of the Doctrine and Covenants: 23 Now, I speak unto you concerning your familiesif men will smite you, or your families, once, and ye bear it patiently and revile not against them, neither seek revenge, ye shall be rewarded; 24 But if ye bear it not patiently, it shall be accounted unto you as being meted out as a just measure unto you. 25 And again, if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundred fold. 26 And again, if he shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four-fold; 27 And these three testimonies shall stand against your enemy if he repent not, and shall not be blotted out. 28 And now, verily I say unto you, if that enemy shall escape my vengeance, that he be not brought into judgment before me, then ye shall see to it that ye warn him in my name, that he come no more upon you, neither upon your family, even your childrens children unto the third and fourth generation. 29 And then, if he shall come upon you or your children, or your childrens children unto the third and fourth generation, I have delivered thine enemy into thine hands; 30 And then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness; and also thy children and thy childrens children unto the third and fourth generation. 31 Nevertheless, thine enemy is in thine hands; and if thou rewardest him according to his works thou art justified; if he has sought thy life, and thy life is endangered by him, thine enemy is in thine hands and thou art justified. 32 Behold, this is the law I gave unto my servant Nephi, and thy fathers, Joseph, and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, and all mine ancient prophets and apostles. 33 And again, this is the law that I gave unto mine ancients, that they should not go out unto battle against any nation, kindred, tongue, or people, save I, the Lord, commanded them. 34 And if any nation, tongue, or people should proclaim war against them, they should first lift a standard of peace unto that people, nation, or tongue; 35 And if that people did not accept the offering of peace, neither the second nor the third time, they should
Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
BTW - I found out the name of the Bible with 6 different languages / translations: Origen's Hexapla. Here is an online definition of what it contained: The Hexapla was an important work of biblical criticism, the magnum opus of Origen (185-254). In his discussions with the Jews, Origen became aware of the significant differences between the Hebrew Bible used by the Jews and the Septuagint of Christians. Although he probably began the work while still in Alexandria, he completed it after moving to Caesarea. Most portions of the Hexapla consisted of six columns of parallel texts: (1) the Hebrew text, (2) the Hebrew text transliterated into Greek characters, (3) the Greek version of Aquila, (4) the Greek version of Symmachus, (5) the Septuagint, and (6) the Greek version of Theodotion. In the Septuagint column, Origen marked with an obelus those passages present in Greek but not found in his Hebrew column. When the Septuagint lacked material found in Hebrew, Origen would insert the passage from one of the other Greek columns (which were closer textually to the Hebrew) and mark the insertion with an asterisk. Although the Hexapla in its entirety was apparently never copied, the Septuagint column was copied repeatedly. Unfortunately, many copies omitted Origen's textual marks, thus introducing a significant amount of contamination into the textual tradition of the Septuagint. Only a few fragments of copies of the Hexapla or of its fifth column are extant. One of the most important witnesses to Origen's work is the seventh century Syriac translation of the fifth column--complete with textual marks--attributed to Paul of Tella, known as the Syro-Hexapla FWIW, Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/02 02:52PM There was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but the name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today? -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Study Bible in Hebrew, Greek, etc.
Thank you for your suggestions - I have ordered them and hope to see
them in a couple of weeks.
Geoff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/29/02 06:53PM
The standard editions used by most scholars are:
Hebrew: Biblia Hebraica, from the Deutsche Bibelstiftung (also known as
the
Württembergische Bibel Gesellschaft) in Stuttgart, Germany. It should
be
available in any Christian bookstore (or here in Canada, from stores of
the
Canadian Bible Society).
Greek: Greek New Testament, edited by Kurt Aland, Matthew Black, et.
al.
Published by the United Bible Societies, and likewise available from
your
national Bible society or Christian bookstore.
Geoff FOWLER wrote:
Hello,
Does anyone know of an accurate study Bible in the original Hebrew
and
Greek? I would like to learn more about those biblical languages and
I
figure that this is the way to do it. However, I am unsure of which
Bible to purchase. There are different interlinear ones, but what I
am
looking for doesn't necessarily have to be interlinear.
I wouldn't mind something that included Latin or Aramaic as well.
There
was such a book that one of the Church Father's put together, but
the
name of it escapes me. Does something like that exist today?
Thank you for your input,
Geoff
--
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] Mission Call
Congratulations to her and your family. Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 05:11AM My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo. She was basking in the irony. She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and came back dreadfully ill and exhausted. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Mission Call
Not for her terrible experience and illness, but for the mission call. :) I am sure that she'll do a wonderful job and bless the Brazilian people. Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 12:45PM Congratulations to her and your family. Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 05:11AM My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo. She was basking in the irony. She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and came back dreadfully ill and exhausted. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Fwd: Your Consideration.
I humbly crave your indulgence?? Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/08/02 12:14PM Another of these entertaining invitations from Lagos... GREENFIELDS AGRO-ALLIED COMPANY. 10 BROAD STREET, LAGOS-NIGERIA. TEL: 2348023263622 Your Attention: First, I must solicit your strictest understanding in the matter i am about to disclose to you,if the contents of this mail does meet with your approval, I humbly crave your indulgence. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Paul wrote: I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty. But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those loopholes. ;-) I don't consider them loopholes at all. When I started working for an Internet-based company in early 2000, I was alone responsible for their entire IT operation. There was a time when I worked 6 days a week, and then had to come in by 1:00 AM onMonday mornings to complete my work before my colleagues arrived later that morning. I didn't want to be the one holding things up, and we were growing rapidly. With my wife's encouragement I was able to get them to hire a few more people so that I could go back to a normal work week. I believe that I was blessed for not working on Sunday, even though I had to come in pretty early those few Mondays. :). While the company itself inflated and deflated with the rest of the dot-bombs, I was not laid off and left of my own free will only a couple of months ago. Given the number of people who were let go (many of whom were much more qualified than I was), I consider this a tremendous blessing and am very grateful for it. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
Scott favored us with the following: I tend to use (not abuse) the Ox in the mire philosophy. For instance, there was a time a few months back where I had to run to the store for something we really needed on a Sunday. I felt really bad about it, and resolved more strongly to anticipate such needs before hand. I did go, but I repented of my lack of forethought. Most of the time if I find I need something on a Sunday, I just have to do without. I don't recall what it was that was so important, but I do recall the incedent as I felt so badly about it. Generally, I have found that if I need something on a Sunday (like an egg or two) and cannot seem to go without it, I will go to a neighbor's house and ask if I can borrow the item from them. I figure it gives me chance to get to know my neighbors (and take advantage of them, apparently - ;-), while at the same time avoid going to the store and purchasing what I need. Of course, as you said, it is best to anticipate your Sabbath day needs and purchase / prepare them the day before. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Does America need to be destroyed
Gary favored us all with: There clearly is a symbolic level to the marks. But often there are both physical and spiritual parts of a symbol. Babylon, for example, is an actual city in antiquity. It also symbolically represents the telestial world, built on greed and power. Although not all the wicked may have the physical mark on their hands/foreheads, it is possible that many will; while all will have the spiritual mark of Babylon/Satan on them. I believe we will see a physical mark put into place in Europe before long, as part of the EU. One thing my dad taught to me (and is confirmed in the Book of Mormon - see Alma 3:13-19) was that people who are disobeying the commandments of God typically mark themselves. It could be in the way that they dress, piercings, tatoos, or any number of ways. He explained that while he was on his mission in Germany during the late 60's (early 70's), he and his companion found and began teaching a man and woman the Gospel. They were both decked out in the style of the time, with the woman wearing clothing that were not modest, and they were both unkept and dirty. While the man was not interested in the message, the woman was, and as she progressed through the discussions the woman's appearance began to change. She did away with the fashion of the day, cleaned herself up, and dressed modestly. She felt the Spirit and was converted. The missionaries never mentioned to her that she needed to change her dressing habits, but she was taught what she needed by the Spirit. She was eventually baptized. Perhaps this is why the Brethren insist that we dress modestly, avoid the fads of the day, and be clean in appearance. Perhaps it is so we can let [our] light so shine before men, that they may see [our] good works, and glorify [our] Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:16) Perhaps this is one of the ways that we mark ourselves unto righteousness and show the world that we are the servants of Christ. What do you think? Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Coffee, tea or eternity?
Stacy, in all seriousness, asked: Suppose I never learn to like them? Can I still get into the celestial kingdom without liking them? You'll like them. It's all a matter of faith - first you EAT, and then you'll LIKE. :) I didn't think liking (or eating) vegetables was a requirement for the Celestial Kingdom. At least I hope not - I still don't like peas! Geoff PS - Right now I am enjoying a vegetable lasagna for lunch (left over from last night) - delicious! -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Can Anyone Become A Fully Qualified Member InGoodStandingAfter Hav
I fully concur with Marc on this one; especially these statements: A. As far as the Church is concerned, if the offender has paid their debt to society and undergone whatever action the Church authorities determine, then he is forgiven. Please don't misconstrue the word forgiven in this context, however. While Church authorities have the power to absolve the offender from punishment or other disciplinary actions, and allow that person full fellowship, it is the Savior who forgives and grants the remission of sins. Bishops and Stake Presidents do not have the authority to remit sins. Only the Savior (and perhaps a few of His earthly servants - like the Prophet) have that power. I believe, especially in the case of serious transgression, that the Savior desires to see proof (through one's thoughts, words, and actions) that they have repented (or turned from) their sins before giving them the sweet peace that accompanies true forgiveness and remission of sins. B. Use common sense. While the Savior taught that we were to love all men, he did not say that we were to TRUST all men. Trust is something that has to be earned. Hope this helps, Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/24/02 10:51PM There is really only one question here that anyone on this list can answer, I'm afraid, and that is what the general policy is regarding people who have committed crimes. If they have paid their debt to society, and undergone whatever action the Church authorities involved determined, then that person is forgiven. The atonement is infinite, covering all sins except the sin against the Holy Ghost (there is another category, the shedding of innocent blood, which we are told involves some additional action, but I assume that neither of these sins is an issue). All the rest of the questions are ones which only you (or anyone else who might be thinking of dating or becoming friends with him) can answer. The only advice I'd dare give is just to use common sense and some caution. Observe how the person treats women when in a group setting, for instance. Trust is something that has to be earned, and sometimes it takes time. Stacy Smith wrote: Hi. I hope this issue does not violate the charter. I have an interesting problem. I have decided quickly not to date an individual with a criminal sexual history in the past. However, he is a member in good standing. He has a temple recommend. What is the general policy regarding people who have committed crimes in the past? Is it possible to date those individuals, to assume that they have repented and are in good standing with the church? Do we assume the atonement has covered the sin? Furthermore, what are we to do with the weakness that has been shown? Can we trust such an individual? Stacy. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Just how can we serve?
Till favored us with: Should I have done more? Is there more we can do for complete strangers. Till, I think you did a terrific job. Unfortunately, in our society, genuine offers of help can be and often are misconstrued. I say pray to the Father and follow the promptings of the Spirit, and you'll do accomplish what is expected. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] From Ýstanbul with love
A Mormon Armenian in Turkey? I wonder if most of the members there are either ex-Pats or other Christian peoples, as opposed to Turks. Although, thanks to Ataturk, it should be easier for the Church in Turkey than in most other Islamic nations. Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/29/02 10:04PM Dear Br. Topakian, It was nice to hear from you again. I certainly hadn't forgotten about you. My son had read the book already while he was in Russia on his mission, but I want to get a replacement copy, and FAIR (www.fairlds.com) has reprinted them and I'll be able to order a copy soon. There are people in my ward I want to lend it out to. Congratulations on being set apart as First Counsellor. Do you know where other branches in Turkey are? (see www.gatheringofisrael.com and on the left side see the Atlas. But here's a shortcut to my current map of Turkey: http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/asia/middle_east/TUR_turkey.gif (all branches are branches of the Greece Athens Mission; it's nice to see former enemies united in the Gospel, isn't it? Now if we could just missionaries into Iraq :-) aratopakian wrote: Dear Elder Schindler , I could not send you and tell you that I am very grateful to you , because I lost your e-mail address .I am grateful to you because , you had sent me a book about How to defend the anti-mormon attacks ? . Ýt was your son's book and I was really extremely pleased . Now again I am very happy to find you . I am the first counselor of the branch presidency in Ýstanbul.I try to serve to others ( Mosiah 2 : 14-19 ) . I hope that you are all well and I am glad to meet you . Ýf you need anything from Ýstanbul do not hesitate to write me sir . Meanwhile , I remain with kindest regards and very best wishes . God bless you and your family . With love , Ara Topakian __ Türkiye'nin tercihi! Mynet Email -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on * Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] comparing rebellions
Which book was that? I had heard that his other books on OT women were a bit racy... but I have not read them myself. Have they been banned too? BTW, I have read most of the Ender's Game series (although I have to admit that the newest editions are a little too violent and graphic for me). Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/01/02 09:39PM Let's see, Paul studies ancient Egyptian stuff, while Jon owns an LDS bookstore Yep, I'd say Paul is more rebellious than Jon. Now, if Jon sells copies of Orson Scott Card's new book (recently banned from Deseret Book's shelves), THEN we'll consider him in the running. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Re: [ZION] From Ýstanbul with love
I guess it depends on whether or not you agree with his policies... :) Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/02 01:27PM Is that the Turkish version of attaboy? Jon Geoff FOWLER wrote: Although, thanks to Ataturk, it should be easier for the Church in Turkey than in most other Islamic nations. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: [ZION] From Ýstanbul with love
Merhaba! I think his real name was Mustafa Kemal, but don't quote me on that... Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/03/02 11:53PM Atatürk, which was his popular name (offhand I believe his real name was something Mustafa -- I'd have to go check). But he'd taken military training in England at Sandhurst and came back to Turkey, in the 1920s, determined to modernize and secularize Turkey. Islamist (or any other religious) party is forbidden under the Turkish constitution. He forbade men to wear the fez (a sign of Islam there, as in Moroco) and he changed the language from which relied on the Arabic alphabet to one that used the Roman alphabet, with a whole chunk of diacritical marks. His adopted name means Father of the Turk[ish Nation] The Turkish military steps in if the constitution is violated. Jon Spencer wrote: Is that the Turkish version of attaboy? Jon Geoff FOWLER wrote: Although, thanks to Ataturk, it should be easier for the Church in Turkey than in most other Islamic nations. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on * Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hell aint cussin'!
Chet favored us with the following: And every Protestant church I've dealt with has the doctrine that True Christians will be neutered angels in Heaven, with no more feeling for their spouse than one would have for a faithful brother or sister. If that is what they are expecting, and desire, then they'll get it. That's the terrestrial kingdom in a nutshell! I believe, however, that if they would just allow the Spirit to whisper to their hearts how much more wonderful it would be to have their family for eternity, then perhaps many would grasp onto that and learn of the true Church. Ol' Scratch seems to be doing quite a number on families these days however, and it makes it a little tougher for people to see past their family problems and see their families for what they could really be: a source of true happiness and joy forever. Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Animal sacrifice
Paul graced us with Are they declared Levites or Jews? What is the patriarch suppose to do when a Jew joins the church and says, I'm a Levite too. One is either a Jew or a Levite, but not both. While a Levite may be classed as a Jew per se by the world at large, he is still a Levite, as far as I know. But then again, what do I know? :) Geoff // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying. Gepff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
After intense thought, Marc favored us with: This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't cause them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity makes. But you are forgetting one truth: God is Omnipotent - he knows all. He knew and planned for Joseph Smith to be born in the United States near the hill Cumorah where the golden plates were buried and sealed up to come forth by His power. Additionally, He knew that Joseph would eventually give in to Martin's harangues and give up the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. Yet, God provided a way for his work to be accomplished, DESPITE the choices made by men. While He might not directly cause historical events, per se, He can and will certainly intervene (remember Alma the Younger) if necessary. Knowing all, He can plan around the mistakes of men. As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity. I guess we will find out when we leave this earthly sphere and see them on the other side. Perhaps having been finally taught the fulness of truth in the spirit world, they fully embraced it (and at least some of them did; else why appear to Wilford Woodruff and request that their work be done for them?). Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Gepff!? I have no idea who that is - apparently he speaks Romanian too. Strange... Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 02:16PM Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying. Gepff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc intelligently replied: Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...] But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, and we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the metanatural. There's a world of difference. You are correct, Marc. Omnipotent means unlimited power, while omniscient is unlimited knowledge. Thank you for correcting me. :) On that subject, yes, I agree that God is subject to natural law - but obviously we mortals do not have a full understanding of said law (and will not until we become as He is, am I right?). I like the word metanatural, BTW. Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, without realizing that there might be more than one approach to time. [...] I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works. However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil. Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to us. Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :) Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] BYU bars use of R-rated movies
Jim mentioned: There also seem to be a number of CES employees who aptly fit the description of wolves among the flock. while Jon added: And we have found some in our stake. When they are discovered, they are gone. Now! While I can see how perhaps a few BYU professors have become, unfortunately, secularized in their thinking, I am truly shocked that CES faculty would fall to such levels. I should not be surprised, however - the Savior Himself testified of it. I guess I have been fortunate enough to have never met one of these wretched souls. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Moral War
Gary favored us with: Are the Republican House and Senate not right now discussing issues to stop charter-prohibited subject? They may be talking about it, but unless something is actually done, and laws are passed and enforced, then it doesn't make the world any safer for the innocents. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
Re: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 09:32AM Some time ago on this very list (probably its incarnation on zilker.net or some other pre-Topica server), a rather heated discussion -- imagine that! -- arose regarding, of all topics, God's love. Some of us claimed that the scriptures clearly teach that God's love is conditional, given to some more than to others, and dependent in its intensity on the actions and heart of the recipient; while others steadfastly maintained that God's love is unconditional, that he loves the rankest, vilest sinner just as much as he loves the most virtuous of men and women. I thus find it interesting that this month's Ensign includes an article by Elder Nelson extolling the *conditional* nature of God's love. I definitely recommend the article to all, which starts on page 20 of the February 2003 Ensign. Some relevant quotations follow: While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as *unconditional*. [emphasis in original] With scriptural patterns of conditional statements in mind, we note many verses that declare the conditional nature of divine love for us. Examples include: [John 15:10; DC 95:12; John 14:23; Proverbs 8:17; Acts 10:34-35; 1 Nephi 17:40; John 14:21] Understanding that divine love and blessings are not truly 'unconditional' can defend us against common fallacies such as these: 'Since God's love is unconditional, He will love me regardless...'; or 'Since ''God is love,'' He will love me unconditionally, regardless...' These arguments are used by anti-Christs to woo people with deception. Divine love is perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal. The full flower of divine love and our greatest blessings from that love are conditional -- predicated upon our obedience to eternal law. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html ==^
RE: [ZION] Conditional divine love
Stephen, I guess in order to clear up the semantics issue, we would need to turn to the scriptures and words of the prophets and determine how / when they use the term unconditional love. I had always thought that the term meant we were to love and forgive our fellowmen, no matter what they have done, because they are children of our Heavenly Father - and thus, our brothers and sisters. Does this mean that God (or we, for that matter) condones what they wicked do? No, of course not. Yet doesn't He still love them, despite the bad that they have done? Where are the conditions that limit God's love? Here is the real kicker - does God still love Lucifer? What about the Sons of Perdition? The other question is this: Does divine love encompass the command to forgive all men? Are we to love those who hurt, abuse, and murder us with divine love or unconditional love? I guess what we need are definitions of each term. When I searched through GospeLink 2001 for the words unconditional love, and these are the times they were used by General Authorities: Express unconditional love to one another through word and act. - A. Theodore Tuttle, 1979 address There he found acceptance and affection and unconditional love. - Elder Marion D. Hanks, Conference Report, October 1970 First Questioner: Is it possible to become too subtle with something as simple as the gospel? The Disciple: Indeed it is, and we must ever be aware that this possibility exists. I don't think of the gospel as subtle, however; I think of it as deep and simple. For instance, some might say that what follows is a subtlety: God can love the sinner and hate the sin. When our desires and our actions go against his plans for us, he must be against us and what we are then doing. But that really means that God is always for us. He never regards man with contempt, but regards many of the things we do as contemptible. In the very moment in which Jesus sent Judas away to do his awful deed, He still loved Judas; His disciple whom He had taught unconditional love, who could not love Jesus, nevertheless could not move outside the range of Jesus' love even in betrayal. Some truths take a good deal of pondering, but not because they are complex. Because they are so powerful and cut so deeply, we must truly feel their edgeand more than fleetingly. - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Desposition of a Disciple His duties have long been galactic, yet He noticed the widow casting in her mite. I am stunned at His perfect, unconditional love of all. Indeed, I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me. I thank Him for His discerning way of loving us without controlling us, for never letting the needs of now crowd out the considerations of eternity. - Elder Neal A. Maxwell, Even As I Am This leads us to the process of making covenants and participating in ordinances, which are sources of power as we realize the importance of the Lord's will in our lives and have faith in it. Such faith turns us toward the Savior, his life, and his unconditional love for us. As these truths sink into our hearts, we hear him requiring the sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit. We must give up the ways of the world and accept and do his way. - Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, Finding Peace in Our Lives Because of his rebellion, Lucifer was cast out and became Satan, the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto [his] voice. (Moses 4:4.) And so this personage who was an angel of God and in authority, even in the presence of God, was removed from the presence of God and his Son. (See DC 76:25.) This caused great sadness in the heavens, for the heavens wept over himhe was Lucifer, a son of the morning. (DC 76:26.) Does this not place some responsibility on the followers of Christ to show concern for loved ones who have lost their way and are shut out from the presence of God? (Moses 6:49.) I know of no better way to do this than to show unconditional love and to help lost souls seek another path. - James E. Faust, Reach Up For The Light Sorry for the long post. Since I have not read Elder Nelson's talk, I do not know if he refutes the concept unconditional love or not. If he doesn't, I guess I am not able to state that this concept is meaningless. I can easily see, however, the difference between divine love and unconditional love. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Your brother, Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/24/03 02:29PM -Geoff- Great post! According to the prophets, then it appears that there are actually two types of love: 1. Divine love 2. Unconditional love They are not one and the same. However, it is true that our Heavenly Father has and exercises both, and that we are commanded to do likewise. Would you agree? Not quite, I don't think. While it is true that God is love, it is not true that Love is God. That is, love is not an overriding or ultimate
