Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Rocky Burt wrote: Max M wrote: If there is another practical way to do it, that would be fine too. I don't know about sqllite. But if it's more difficulte than dropping a package into a directory it would be bad. Personally I'd be a huge proponent of including SQLite in zope core. It is extraordinarilly functional and has few requirements. I particularly like using it to ensure unit tests against RDBMS connections work properly. Requiring a user to install postgresql just to run the unit tests of a product is somewhat unfeasible. - Rocky I would like that. Whenever giving a Zope/Plone class I end up using gadfly since this is the only db every one attending can use. As gadfly is very limited, it would be great to have something a bit more powerful. I would like to help making this possible. Robert ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
robert rottermann schrieb: Rocky Burt wrote: Max M wrote: If there is another practical way to do it, that would be fine too. I don't know about sqllite. But if it's more difficulte than dropping a package into a directory it would be bad. Personally I'd be a huge proponent of including SQLite in zope core. It is extraordinarilly functional and has few requirements. I particularly like using it to ensure unit tests against RDBMS connections work properly. Requiring a user to install postgresql just to run the unit tests of a product is somewhat unfeasible. I dont think we should inlcude more 3rd party products into zope core unless they are required for core funtionality. And a random database adaptor isnt really core functionality. Linking interesting products from the download-page could be improved to fill the gap imho. Regards Tino ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 22. Dezember 2005 12:32:07 +0100 Tino Wildenhain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dont think we should inlcude more 3rd party products into zope core unless they are required for core funtionality. And a random database adaptor isnt really core functionality. Another point: with Zope 2.10 we want to replace more and more duplicate code from the Zope 2 core with Zope 3 code. Since out-of-the-box RDBMS functionality might be off interest for the Zope 3 community it should be part of the Zope 3 (to be re-used within Zope 2). I think that would be the way to go if there is consensus about the necessity for having Sqlite in Zope 2/3 (the license issue is still an open point). -aj pgpq9SWG6XqeH.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: --On 22. Dezember 2005 12:32:07 +0100 Tino Wildenhain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I dont think we should inlcude more 3rd party products into zope core unless they are required for core funtionality. And a random database adaptor isnt really core functionality. Another point: with Zope 2.10 we want to replace more and more duplicate code from the Zope 2 core with Zope 3 code. Since out-of-the-box RDBMS functionality might be off interest for the Zope 3 community it should be part of the Zope 3 (to be re-used within Zope 2). I think that would be the way to go if there is consensus about the necessity for having Sqlite in Zope 2/3 (the license issue is still an open point). -aj I perfectly agree with both of these arguments. However having a dead easy to use RDBMS tool is very convenient. Both for teaching and marketing purposes. Robert ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 22. Dezember 2005 15:20:27 +0100 robert rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I perfectly agree with both of these arguments. However having a dead easy to use RDBMS tool is very convenient. Both for teaching and marketing purposes. I agree (meanwhile) but we have to sort out the issues I mentioned already (license, integration with Z 3, who volunteers :-)) -aj pgpFXMAhkrn4e.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: --On 22. Dezember 2005 15:20:27 +0100 robert rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I perfectly agree with both of these arguments. However having a dead easy to use RDBMS tool is very convenient. Both for teaching and marketing purposes. I agree (meanwhile) but we have to sort out the issues I mentioned already (license, integration with Z 3, who volunteers :-)) Hmm... I'm definitely willing to help out here. But one strike against me is my lack of zope3 development knowledge. When you mentioned before about importing sqlite into svn.zope.org, you were talking about actually including a snapshot of sqlite inside zope source rather than making it a build time requirement? - Rocky -- Rocky Burt ServerZen Software -- http://www.serverzen.com ServerZen Hosting -- http://www.serverzenhosting.net News About The Server -- http://www.serverzen.net ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 22. Dezember 2005 11:42:30 -0330 Rocky Burt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you mentioned before about importing sqlite into svn.zope.org, you were talking about actually including a snapshot of sqlite inside zope source rather than making it a build time requirement? I really don't care about how to do it..this would be up to the volunteer. But the license issue must be discussed since you are not allowed to import non-ZPL code to svn.zope.org. -aj pgpjs6YAaZ0cs.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: --On 22. Dezember 2005 11:42:30 -0330 Rocky Burt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you mentioned before about importing sqlite into svn.zope.org, you were talking about actually including a snapshot of sqlite inside zope source rather than making it a build time requirement? I really don't care about how to do it..this would be up to the volunteer. But the license issue must be discussed since you are not allowed to import non-ZPL code to svn.zope.org. Well, if we simply suck sqlite in as a build time requirement (during the 'make' process) do we care about importing non-ZPL code into svn.zope.org? We would only care about licensing when distributing binaries that include sqlite, no? - Rocky -- Rocky Burt ServerZen Software -- http://www.serverzen.com ServerZen Hosting -- http://www.serverzenhosting.net News About The Server -- http://www.serverzen.net ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
sqlite is public domain code, FWIW. I doubt this is incompatible with the ZPL. It would just require an acknowledgement from ZC that it's safe to be included in a Zope distro. - C On Dec 22, 2005, at 11:14 AM, Rocky Burt wrote: Andreas Jung wrote: --On 22. Dezember 2005 11:42:30 -0330 Rocky Burt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When you mentioned before about importing sqlite into svn.zope.org, you were talking about actually including a snapshot of sqlite inside zope source rather than making it a build time requirement? I really don't care about how to do it..this would be up to the volunteer. But the license issue must be discussed since you are not allowed to import non-ZPL code to svn.zope.org. Well, if we simply suck sqlite in as a build time requirement (during the 'make' process) do we care about importing non-ZPL code into svn.zope.org? We would only care about licensing when distributing binaries that include sqlite, no? - Rocky -- Rocky Burt ServerZen Software -- http://www.serverzen.com ServerZen Hosting -- http://www.serverzenhosting.net News About The Server -- http://www.serverzen.net ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Rocky Burt wrote: Well, if we simply suck sqlite in as a build time requirement (during the 'make' process) do we care about importing non-ZPL code into svn.zope.org? We would only care about licensing when distributing binaries that include sqlite, no? will this imply that I need to have an internet connection to make/install zope3 from checkouts? /dario -- -- --- Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems Services Chalmers University of Tech. Lyrics applied to programming application design: emancipate yourself from mental slavery - redemption song, b. marley ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 22. Dezember 2005 12:44:23 -0330 Rocky Burt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if we simply suck sqlite in as a build time requirement (during the 'make' process) do we care about importing non-ZPL code into svn.zope.org? We would only care about licensing when distributing binaries that include sqlite, no? The sources must be part of the distribution so loading the package is not an option for me. But as Chris pointed out Sqlite is really free software. Since you volunteered (didn't you? :-) ) one should ask Jim about the license issue . Then the source should go at some location on svn.zope.org. The same applies to the SqliteDA (it's ZPL..maybe one should contact the author as well)that's should not be too hard. So I am +0.75 to include Sqlite with Zope 2.10 (already deprecating Gadfly in 2.9 (I created already a copy of the ZGadyfly product on svn.zope.org). -aj pgpktnFtMjN75.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Rocky Burt schrieb: Andreas Jung wrote: --On 22. Dezember 2005 15:20:27 +0100 robert rottermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I perfectly agree with both of these arguments. However having a dead easy to use RDBMS tool is very convenient. Both for teaching and marketing purposes. I agree (meanwhile) but we have to sort out the issues I mentioned already (license, integration with Z 3, who volunteers :-)) Hmm... I'm definitely willing to help out here. But one strike against me is my lack of zope3 development knowledge. When you mentioned before about importing sqlite into svn.zope.org, you were talking about actually including a snapshot of sqlite inside zope source rather than making it a build time requirement? I'd still rather not include depencies on other projects into the core. Even more if they are problematic license. And last not least - I'd not like zope bringing its own sqlite libs where I might have some in my python install already. I'm definitively -1 on including it in the core, no matter how usefull it migh appear. +1 in the list of suggested 3rd party products with easy install ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: Hi, - Gadfly(DA) - do we really need this? We discussed this already. In my opinion the purpose of Gadfly is only educational but nothing that one really needs or uses for production. It could be removed and made available for download on zope.org. -1 From time to time I teach classes on Zope. Often to people with an sql legacy. Most companies don't have a computer lab with similar machines, so often the educational software must be installed on the participants own machine. Which can be of any platform. Using Gadfly as an educational tool is *very* practical. Eg. they can install Zope, and begin using sql at once. Having to install postgres etc. just to teach about database connections etc. would be really impractical. If there is another practical way to do it, that would be fine too. I don't know about sqllite. But if it's more difficulte than dropping a package into a directory it would be bad. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 21. Dezember 2005 17:10:19 +0100 Max M [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If there is another practical way to do it, that would be fine too. I don't know about sqllite. But if it's more difficulte than dropping a package into a directory it would be bad. I mentioned to make it available as download. So you can install it when needed. -aj pgp8ItatpYMAz.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Max M wrote: If there is another practical way to do it, that would be fine too. I don't know about sqllite. But if it's more difficulte than dropping a package into a directory it would be bad. Personally I'd be a huge proponent of including SQLite in zope core. It is extraordinarilly functional and has few requirements. I particularly like using it to ensure unit tests against RDBMS connections work properly. Requiring a user to install postgresql just to run the unit tests of a product is somewhat unfeasible. - Rocky -- Rocky Burt ServerZen Software -- http://www.serverzen.com ServerZen Hosting -- http://www.serverzenhosting.net News About The Server -- http://www.serverzen.net ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Jeff Kowalczyk wrote: Andreas Jung wrote: I'll raise the question again: what are the benefits of the HelpSys for a Zope user? I can't recall clicking on top frame of the ZMI or a 'Help!' link in the past few years, either. Perhaps an equivalent or greater benefit would be to rip out locally installed static help facilities, and spend the effort migrating* zope.org to a plone version that could run PloneHelpCenter: http://plone.org/documentation FWIW, I think storing docs anywhere on the filesystem and in the product distribution is absolutely 100% evil. You asking product authors to commit to a url being around forever, and that's unreasonable and foolish... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 21. Dezember 2005 17:23:26 -0330 Rocky Burt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I'd be a huge proponent of including SQLite in zope core. It is extraordinarilly functional and has few requirements. I particularly like using it to ensure unit tests against RDBMS connections work properly. Requiring a user to install postgresql just to run the unit tests of a product is somewhat unfeasible. Do you volunteer to take over the responsibility for this project? That means: - integrate the python bindings - integrate the DA - if necessary update existing documentation - convince someone from ZC to import the Sqlite code base on svn.zope.org (since Sqlite is _not_ ZPL only a ZC employee is permitted to import non-ZPL code). -aj pgpUMN2csL00N.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: for next release we plan to replace several parts with the corresponding components from Zope 3 (e.g. ZPT´). Philipp is working on a proposal on that issue. In addition I would like to get rid of some old stuff that is no longer maintained and buggy: - ZopeTutorial (could be ripped off without implications and made available for download on zope.org) +1 - HelpSys - from a programmers view pretty much useless and not very helpful. I consider to replace it with something more useful (not sure we can re-use apidoc from Zope 3 in some way, perhaps the inclusion of Dieter's Docfinder might be more useful for programmers) +0, it would be useful to not use the explanation texts that are in the help system, or at list check that other material (docstrings, zope book) are at least as comprehensive. - Gadfly(DA) - do we really need this? We discussed this already. In my opinion the purpose of Gadfly is only educational but nothing that one really needs or uses for production. It could be removed and made available for download on zope.org. Gadfly should go, but OTOH have sqlite in its place would still provide SQL inside Zope and that could be a good plus. And my favourite enemy in Zope: ZClasses :-) I would like to mark them _clearly_ as an obsolete feature (DeprecationWarning, Warnings in the ZMI and the Zope Book). I _don't_ propose to remove them at some point but ppl should be aware that they are using one of the most-scary components in Zope (please no further discussion about the pros and cons of ZClasses..this discussion took already place already a bunch of times on the list). +1 as I don't use ZClasses and don't intend to maintain them. Florent -- Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France) CTO, Director of RD +33 1 40 33 71 59 http://nuxeo.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
--On 20. Dezember 2005 14:05:26 +0100 Florent Guillaume [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Gadfly(DA) - do we really need this? We discussed this already. In my opinion the purpose of Gadfly is only educational but nothing that one really needs or uses for production. It could be removed and made available for download on zope.org. Gadfly should go, but OTOH have sqlite in its place would still provide SQL inside Zope and that could be a good plus. This would require to move two more third-party packages into the Zope core (without having checked the licenses for the DA and the Python bindings). We discussed that issue already. Third party packages are a burden when the developers aren't active contributors to the Zope core. -aj pgp5nRg4A1VbG.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Re: [RfC] Removal of old stuff in Zope 2.10
Andreas Jung wrote: I'll raise the question again: what are the benefits of the HelpSys for a Zope user? I can't recall clicking on top frame of the ZMI or a 'Help!' link in the past few years, either. Perhaps an equivalent or greater benefit would be to rip out locally installed static help facilities, and spend the effort migrating* zope.org to a plone version that could run PloneHelpCenter: http://plone.org/documentation * or a clean-slate docs.zope.org, just as well. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
