Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Am Donnerstag, 27. März 2008 18:26 schrieb Kurt Zitze: if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu*** and completly out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a mailing list compared to a forum. i am even not aware of how to replay to a Well, all I can say to this is: Please do not split up the userbase by opening some extra web forum. I personally dislike forums, they are often cumbersome to use, therefore I prefer mailing lists a lot. Although I don't like forums that much, it is true that newbies and specific users tend to use them. To satisfy both sides, I can think of a forum that has a gateway to this mailing list. If I remember it right, Plone has such a thing (perhaps it could be used somehow?). This forum would then also serve as a pretty looking archive, which is also a good thing. and if you finaly have one, put it on the start site, not like this mailing list that is so to say hidden! It's true, that Zope3 and Zope3 support ist somehow hidden in the Zope website. But AFAIK a new Zope website is currently under development, which will probably solve all these issues. everything in zope is not obvious, at least not to me. everything has to be found out in hours of studying the sources! reading the books, using google to find sources that arent linked nowhere. i stumbled over nabble, i stumbled over nearly everythink i essentialy have to know! Well, the learning curve is really steep, that's true. I personally also did have to study the sources quite often. Phillips book did help, but often only after a personal advice from himself or after studying the sources. The real problem for me was that Zope 3 is all about a new software development concept, namely, the component design with interfaces / adapters / utilities etc. This is something that the Joe Average programmer is not used to, so he does not really know how to map his ideas to a componentized architecture. I don't know how to deal with this problem, perhaps a theoretical book about componentized software design could help; On the other hand newbies like to start right away and don't want to study a complicated design book beforehand. Another issue is the ZMI. Most people, who begin Zope3, start out with Phillips book or similar documentation which uses and adapts the ZMI. However, many people sooner or later come to the conclusion that the ZMI can not be configured to their needs, things get very complicated and people are frustrated. Many people, such like me, then have a look at a ZMI-less design (e.g. z3.pagelet, z3c.form etc.), which works better for many projects. Anyway, after approx. 1 year of Zope 3 development, I can say that going through these hassles and problems was definitely worth it. Moreover, I think, Zope 3 is very much work in progress and I'm expecting many things to come that will solve the issues above and make the entry step easier. Best Regards, Hermann -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key ID: 299893C7 (on keyservers) FP: 0124 2584 8809 EF2A DBF9 4902 64B4 D16B 2998 93C7 ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 01:38:06PM -0400, Benji York wrote: Kurt Zitze wrote: if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu*** and completly out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a mailing list compared to a forum. forums (and capitalization) are way too cumbersome we should switch to texting each other with our mobile phones how bout a zope3 page on myspace?lol *shudder* Marius Gedminas -- The death rate on Earth is: (computing) One per person. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Marius Gedminas wrote: how bout a zope3 page on myspace?lol Just write a Facebook app that interacts with the list archives ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Chris Shenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Kudos to the Grok team for such a pleasant product, and for some REALLY good tutorials. Thanks! Thanks for the kudos! I hope to see you on grok-dev if you aren't there already! Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Chris Shenton wrote: Martijn Faassen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On the rest of your rant, I agree that the beginner experience for Zope 3 is suboptimal. Work is slowly progressing towards a new website for Zope. As an alternative you might like to look at Grok (grok.zope.org), which is based on Zope 3 as well but may be somewhat easier to get started with. That said, our documentation is far from complete yet, and we don't have a forum either. :) I've been poking around the edges of Plone for a while and Plone3 makes the learning wall even steeper than Plone 2. So last weekend I got Grok, followed the tutorial, and had an application up in a day that took me a week in Plone3. Grok seems a great way for me to get into Zope without worrying about all the details yet. Kudos to the Grok team for such a pleasant product, and for some REALLY good tutorials. Thanks! Grok and Plone are not exactly competitors. You're not comparing apples and apples at all. :) I think Plone can learn a lot from Grok's philosophy and that the two projects can share a lot more infrastructure, though. Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hermann Himmelbauer wrote: Am Donnerstag, 27. März 2008 18:26 schrieb Kurt Zitze: if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu*** and completly out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a mailing list compared to a forum. i am even not aware of how to replay to a Well, all I can say to this is: Please do not split up the userbase by opening some extra web forum. I personally dislike forums, they are often cumbersome to use, therefore I prefer mailing lists a lot. I think the chances of this happening are virtually zero. :) Although I don't like forums that much, it is true that newbies and specific users tend to use them. To satisfy both sides, I can think of a forum that has a gateway to this mailing list. If I remember it right, Plone has such a thing (perhaps it could be used somehow?). This forum would then also serve as a pretty looking archive, which is also a good thing. So does Zope. See nabble.com and news.gmane.org. and if you finaly have one, put it on the start site, not like this mailing list that is so to say hidden! It's true, that Zope3 and Zope3 support ist somehow hidden in the Zope website. But AFAIK a new Zope website is currently under development, which will probably solve all these issues. Indeed. We should see some movement on this over the weekend. everything in zope is not obvious, at least not to me. everything has to be found out in hours of studying the sources! reading the books, using google to find sources that arent linked nowhere. i stumbled over nabble, i stumbled over nearly everythink i essentialy have to know! Well, the learning curve is really steep, that's true. I personally also did have to study the sources quite often. Phillips book did help, but often only after a personal advice from himself or after studying the sources. The real problem for me was that Zope 3 is all about a new software development concept, namely, the component design with interfaces / adapters / utilities etc. This is something that the Joe Average programmer is not used to, so he does not really know how to map his ideas to a componentized architecture. I don't know how to deal with this problem, perhaps a theoretical book about componentized software design could help; On the other hand newbies like to start right away and don't want to study a complicated design book beforehand. I think this is the problem that Grok attempts to address. Another issue is the ZMI. Most people, who begin Zope3, start out with Phillips book or similar documentation which uses and adapts the ZMI. However, many people sooner or later come to the conclusion that the ZMI can not be configured to their needs, things get very complicated and people are frustrated. Many people, such like me, then have a look at a ZMI-less design (e.g. z3.pagelet, z3c.form etc.), which works better for many projects. Anyway, after approx. 1 year of Zope 3 development, I can say that going through these hassles and problems was definitely worth it. Moreover, I think, Zope 3 is very much work in progress and I'm expecting many things to come that will solve the issues above and make the entry step easier. Zope 3 is also one of the most advanced and powerful development frameworks in existence - in any language. I miss the Component Architecture so much when I do Java. ;) Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Nabble provides a web forum bridge to the mailing lists. I use both the mailing list and the forums, depending on which forum/computer I'm using at the time. Here are the links: http://www.nabble.com/Zope-f6706.html http://www.nabble.com/Grok-f28342.html We've also embedded the Grok-Nabble forum inside the grok web site: http://grok.zope.org/community/grok-web-forums Grok is categorized under Web Development Framework and Python on Nabble, but all of the Zope lists are only categorized under Content Management Systems. Whoever has the keys to the Zope/Nabble registration should perhaps change the categorization to Web Development Framework and Python and Content Management Systems.___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Kurt Zitze wrote: if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu*** and completly out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a mailing list compared to a forum. forums (and capitalization) are way too cumbersome we should switch to texting each other with our mobile phones -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Jens Vagelpohl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] From your argument about cumbersone logins to mail accounts it appears you dislike mailing lists because you use some free web-based email provider. Well, get a real email account and use it with a real email client, and all that will be gone. Alternatively, you can use gmane.org and a news client (Thunderbird is one) to read mailing lists. Many of the mailing lists, including this one, are already available (this one is gmane.comp.web.zope.zope3.user). Once you need to write to one, you do still need to sign up to it, but you can set up your mailman subscription to not send any messages. On the rest of your rant, I agree that the beginner experience for Zope 3 is suboptimal. Work is slowly progressing towards a new website for Zope. As an alternative you might like to look at Grok (grok.zope.org), which is based on Zope 3 as well but may be somewhat easier to get started with. That said, our documentation is far from complete yet, and we don't have a forum either. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Kurt Zitze wrote: if you want to raise the userbase of zope, the first and most obvious thing to do is, get a forum running! mailing lists are bu*** and completly out of date. it is max cumbersome to login into your email account to do a post and so on, i think i dont need to enumerate all the disadvantages of a mailing list compared to a forum. i am even not aware of how to replay to a certain message with this mailing list. why make it difficult if it could be easy? just get a forum and you have done 50% of the things you could do to improve the development experience with zope. http://news.gmane.org/search.php?match=zope http://www.nabble.com/Zope-f6706.html ... and when you start participating actively in a project or two, you'll realise why a web based (only) forum is far, far sub-optimal to a properly archived mailing list with an NNTP and web gateway. If you're having trouble replying to emails ... mmm Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 05:26:14PM -0500, Chris McDonough wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 11:06:48AM -0500, Chris McDonough wrote: I typed four more paragraphs full of markety stuff here but deleted them. *cheers* I'll take that as STFU ;-) It wasn't intended that way. I know from personal experience how hard it is to suppress rants I've written. I was just applauding your self-control. Uhh, not that I'm implying your markety stuff was a rant. I'll shut up now. :-) Marius Gedminas -- Place mark here -[ ]- if you want a dirty monitor. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Feb 1, 2008 11:52 PM, Martin Aspeli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephan Richter wrote: On Friday 01 February 2008, Martijn Faassen wrote: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux This project does not seem to be public. Right - thanks Martijn for spilling the beans prematurely. ;-) I hadn't realized that thing was private, but I don't feel too guilty. The Foundation hasn't been hiding this effort, we just don't want too many cooks involved before it's ready. Anyway, Martin, I'm just recruiting people who want to write content for you and giving you people to add to your list of volunteers to write about Zope 3. I'm hoping you are keeping a list. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey,. On Feb 1, 2008 4:09 PM, David Pratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] It might be nice for the marketing of zope to give each set of eggs a nice name. Just using familiar mozilla names as an illustration, see how nice zope-thunderbird or zope-firefox look. So do away with the kgs in the name and create a brand where zope 2 doesn't look like the lesser version of zope and zope3 isn't a library. They are only sets of the packages we generally refer to as zope :-) There is this little community project called Grok which among other things aims at better marketing of Zope 3 technologies: http://grok.zope.org We've been at it for over a year. Now with all new website! I realize that Grok isn't to the tastes of everybody in this community. They may wish to market non-Grok Zope 3 better. My suggestion is for them to contribute to the Zope website project: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux (appears down at the moment, but I think that this is the correct URL) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Friday 01 February 2008, Chris McDonough wrote: If there will continue to be a release schedule for Zope 3, the appserver It would reduce confusion to new users greatly to give the appserver release a name other than Zope. Well, we had to do the classic Zope 3 release at least one more time. Because the official story is still: Download the Zope 3.3 tar ball and start using it. We have to use at least one release to tell people that we are going to change the process and allow them still both methods. I also think that we have no solid story and/or documentation to promote the new approach. My hope is that the story and documentation will develop during the next release cycles. All I am doing is doing something about a pretty pathetic situation. I took the least oath of resistance. And I am particularly tired of name change suggestions! For many reasons. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter Web Software Design, Development and Training Google me. Zope Stephan Richter ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Tom Hoffman wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll take a risk by stating the obvious. If there will continue to be a release schedule for Zope 3, the appserver It would reduce confusion to new users greatly to give the appserver release a name other than Zope. Eg. Current name Proposed name - Zope2- Zope Zope3, the libraries - Zope libraries Zope3 the appserver - Frobnozz Isn't this release sort of the last of its kind, though? Kind of a weird time for a name change I've heard that rumored, but there's nothing indicating that in the release announcement. There are forward looking statements in there: tarballs... for the last 3.4 series and probably for 3.5 as well. I take this to mean that there's an intention to have a 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 release, etc, but past 3.5, the release won't be packaged as a tarball. If this is the case, even if it's just for 3.5, it would sure help reduce confusion to give this release of packages (even if it's just a buildout and the KGS for that release) a name other than Zope. Or if not, it would seem like there would be a better argument for the new approach having a new name than the old one. I'm not sure which is the new approach and which is the old one? - C ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Feb 1, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Chris McDonough wrote: Tom Hoffman wrote: On Fri, Feb 1, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Chris McDonough [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll take a risk by stating the obvious. If there will continue to be a release schedule for Zope 3, the appserver It would reduce confusion to new users greatly to give the appserver release a name other than Zope. Eg. Current name Proposed name - Zope2- Zope Zope3, the libraries - Zope libraries Zope3 the appserver - Frobnozz Isn't this release sort of the last of its kind, though? Kind of a weird time for a name change I've heard that rumored, but there's nothing indicating that in the release announcement. There are forward looking statements in there: tarballs... for the last 3.4 series and probably for 3.5 as well. I take this to mean that there's an intention to have a 3.5, 3.6, 3.7 release, etc, but past 3.5, the release won't be packaged as a tarball. If this is the case, even if it's just for 3.5, it would sure help reduce confusion to give this release of packages (even if it's just a buildout and the KGS for that release) a name other than Zope. Or if not, it would seem like there would be a better argument for the new approach having a new name than the old one. I'm not sure which is the new approach and which is the old one? I'm glad you brought this up. Some observations: - I think the goal of these releases is less to provide an application than to provide a possibly useful collection of some libraries. This is similar to the Python standard library. Some people see significant value in this. I believe that other web frameworks, like TurboGears, also make releases that assemble a bunch of eggs, so people can use their frameworks without having to download eggs from PyPI. - The new approach to making a release would be to create an egg-based release, probably building on zc.sourcerelease. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Not responding to anyone in particular: I see there are plenty people with opinions. I would love not to do the Zope 3 releases anymore! I am tired of the endless discussions. Think I am frustrated? Absolutely! All the suggestions made here require more work, more manpower. But there is nobody doing the work. In fact, I am not even officially the release manager anymore. Remember, other people took over that job, because they wanted to do a release every 6 months? I said back then: Forget it. Nobody believed me and now it has been almost a year since the 3.3.1 release. The only reason I am doing the releases is to tell the world that we are still out there, improving the framework. And Tom/SchoolTool is the perfect example why this has to be done. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter Web Software Design, Development and Training Google me. Zope Stephan Richter ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Stephan Richter wrote: On Friday 01 February 2008, Chris McDonough wrote: If there will continue to be a release schedule for Zope 3, the appserver It would reduce confusion to new users greatly to give the appserver release a name other than Zope. Well, we had to do the classic Zope 3 release at least one more time. Because the official story is still: Download the Zope 3.3 tar ball and start using it. We have to use at least one release to tell people that we are going to change the process and allow them still both methods. Of course. I also think that we have no solid story and/or documentation to promote the new approach. My hope is that the story and documentation will develop during the next release cycles. All I am doing is doing something about a pretty pathetic situation. I took the least oath of resistance. Heh. You're doing yeoman's work. And I am particularly tired of name change suggestions! For many reasons. I figured it wouldn't be a popular suggestion. But I do believe it is the right thing. It would have been the right thing from the start, but there is still time to repair things. I typed four more paragraphs full of markety stuff here but deleted them. It's not useful. If no one else thinks it's a good idea, I'm not going to push either. - C ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hi Martijn. I am familiar with grok and the fun and welcoming community you have created. With the perspective I have suggested, releases are only sets with different names giving meaning to each set for developer groups. As a project, grok is currently pinning eggs but can also provide a kgs for the set known as grok. The full story of zope is about the assembly of packages into projects. It need not be only one thing or the other which is the point. It is really up to individual developers to determine their flavor of zope and what it means to their own projects and style of development. My thinking though is that we can create a more cohesive community if the code base were all known as 'zope' and developers are all working from the superset of zope (which is in essence just the code base of packages we all use). Regards, David Martijn Faassen wrote: Hey,. On Feb 1, 2008 4:09 PM, David Pratt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] It might be nice for the marketing of zope to give each set of eggs a nice name. Just using familiar mozilla names as an illustration, see how nice zope-thunderbird or zope-firefox look. So do away with the kgs in the name and create a brand where zope 2 doesn't look like the lesser version of zope and zope3 isn't a library. They are only sets of the packages we generally refer to as zope :-) There is this little community project called Grok which among other things aims at better marketing of Zope 3 technologies: http://grok.zope.org We've been at it for over a year. Now with all new website! I realize that Grok isn't to the tastes of everybody in this community. They may wish to market non-Grok Zope 3 better. My suggestion is for them to contribute to the Zope website project: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux (appears down at the moment, but I think that this is the correct URL) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
I'll take a risk by stating the obvious. If there will continue to be a release schedule for Zope 3, the appserver It would reduce confusion to new users greatly to give the appserver release a name other than Zope. Eg. Current name Proposed name - Zope2- Zope Zope3, the libraries - Zope libraries Zope3 the appserver - Frobnozz - C Stephan Richter wrote: January 31, 2008 - The Zope 3 development team announces the Zope 3.4.0c1 release. This release is the first release candidate for Zope 3.4.0. It was preceeded by an early beta 2 release back in November, 2007. Zope 3.4 introduces support for binary large objects in the ZODB, and provides a new postprocessing hook for publishing results. Many of the packages also provide small feature improvements that are too numerous to list at this point. Packages and Eggs - Since the first Zope 3.4 alpha and beta releases, we have finished the transition to a completely egg-based system. This largely means that most Zope 3 developers do not use the classic Zope 3 tar ball release anymore. However, for your convenience, the Zope 3 developers will provide the classic Zope 3 tar ball releases for at least the 3.4 series and probably for 3.5 as well. So how are Zope 3 applications built using only eggs? The Known Good Set (KGS) The known good set -- or in short KGS -- is a package index that derives from the official Python Package Index (PyPI) and thus contains all available packages in the Python world. But for a controlled set of packages, only certain versions that are known to work together are available. The list of controlled packages and their versions for Zope 3.4 can be found at the index page [1]_. The index can be used in several ways -- described here for `buildout`-based projects. The easiest method is to specify the index option in your ``buildout.cfg`` file:: [buildout] index = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4 ... You can also nail the versions by downloading the versions [2]_ and insert them as follows: [buildout] versions = versions ... [versions] zope.interface = 3.4.0 ... ``zopeproject`` Project Builder ~~~ Philipp von Weitershausen has developed a package called `zopeproject` to quickly setup the boilerplate for any Zope 3 based project. Ample documentation is provided at the `zopeproject` home page [3]_. `zopeproject` uses Paste or ZDaemon to create a working server. Here are the necessary commands to get a project started:: $ easy_install zopeproject $ zopeproject HelloWorld $ cd HelloWorld $ bin/helloworld-ctl foreground Demo Packages ~ At this point, there is no demo package demonstrating a simple Zope 3 application setup. (I hope one gets developed before Zope 3.4.0 final.) However, the ``z3c.formdemo`` package can be used as a fairly minimal setup. To get started with it, do the following:: $ svn co svn://svn.zope.org/repos/main/z3c.formdemo/tags/1.5.1 formdemo $ cd formdemo $ python bootstrap.py $ ./bin/buildout -v $ ./bin/demo fg .. [1] http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/controlled-packages.cfg .. [2] http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg .. [3] http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zopeproject What is Zope 3? --- Zope 3 is a web application server that continues to build on the heritage of Zope. It was rewritten from scratch based on the latest software design patterns and the experiences of Zope 2. The component architecture is the very core of Zope 3 that allows developers to create flexible and powerful web applications. Compatibility with Zope 2 -- Zope 3 is not upwards compatible with Zope 2. This means you cannot run Zope 2 applications in Zope 3. We continue to work on the transition from Zope 2 to Zope 3 by making Zope 2 use more and more of the Zope 3 infrastructure. This means that new code written in Zope 2 can benefit from Zope 3 technology. Also, with care, code can be written that works in both Zope 3 and Zope 2. This allows a Zope 2 application to slowly evolve towards Zope 3. Unchanged Zope 2 applications are never expected to work in Zope 3, however. Downloads - - Zope 3.4 Egg Index: http://download.zope.org/zope3.4 - Zope 3.4 Controlled Packages: http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/controlled-packages.cfg - Zope 3.4 Latest Versions: http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg - The classic Zope 3 source release can be downloaded from: http://zope.org/Products/Zope3 Installation instructions for both Windows and Un*x/Linux are now available in the top level `README.txt` file of the distribution. The binary installer is recommended for Windows. Zope 3.4 requires Python 2.4.4 to run. You must also have zlib installed on your system. Resources - - Zope 3 Development Web Site: http://wiki.zope.org/zope3 - Zope 3 Developers
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Feb 1, 2008 6:04 PM, Christophe Combelles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] The transition seems now achieved and the most important thing is to have a dedicated web site with clear information, so that there are new users, and new contributors. When someone goes to the zope.org homepage, there is nothing about zope3, just a single link in the left menu. I've heard that some people have started working on a new web site. Who is doing that job, what is the current status, and what can we do to help? I agree that updating the website is important. Martin Aspeli is the person to contact on the zope.org effort. I've cc-ed him here. Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the project as it is on the openplans website. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Feb 1, 2008 6:11 PM, Stephan Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 01 February 2008, Martijn Faassen wrote: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux This project does not seem to be public. I don't know how it's been setup, but if you want to join I'm sure Martin Aspeli can help you. :) Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Stephan Richter a écrit : Not responding to anyone in particular: I see there are plenty people with opinions. I would love not to do the Zope 3 releases anymore! I am tired of the endless discussions. Think I am frustrated? Absolutely! All the suggestions made here require more work, more manpower. But there is nobody doing the work. In fact, I am not even officially the release manager anymore. Remember, other people took over that job, because they wanted to do a release every 6 months? I said back then: Forget it. Nobody believed me and now it has been almost a year since the 3.3.1 release. The only reason I am doing the releases is to tell the world that we are still out there, improving the framework. I believe the reason of your frustration comes from the fact there are probably not so many people who fully understand the whole release process, the kgs, the buildout, how things are scattered into all these eggs, and all the technology surrounding the transition that zope is going through. I'm not here for a long time and I had to spend hours reading docs and searching every single bit of information in the svn. The transition seems now achieved and the most important thing is to have a dedicated web site with clear information, so that there are new users, and new contributors. When someone goes to the zope.org homepage, there is nothing about zope3, just a single link in the left menu. I've heard that some people have started working on a new web site. Who is doing that job, what is the current status, and what can we do to help? Christophe And Tom/SchoolTool is the perfect example why this has to be done. Regards, Stephan ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Friday 01 February 2008, Martijn Faassen wrote: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux This project does not seem to be public. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter Web Software Design, Development and Training Google me. Zope Stephan Richter ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 11:06:48AM -0500, Chris McDonough wrote: I typed four more paragraphs full of markety stuff here but deleted them. *cheers* Marius Gedminas -- The clothes have no emperor. -- C.A.R. Hoare, commenting on ADA. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Hey, On Feb 1, 2008 8:59 PM, Paul Carduner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] I think the website is one of the huge impediments to joining the Zope community. When you compare zope.org to all the other web framework websites like django, turbogears, and RoR, it is pretty clear why people aren't drawn to Zope 3. Isn't it something of a disgrace that the website for a powerful web application framework is as outdated as zope.org? Oh, I think everybody agrees. We even have a foundation effort to replace the website (the referenced project). We've had several efforts before; some where I myself was involved, but it's a very difficult thing to move forward. We are moving forward however. Note that meanwhile grok.zope.org *does* present a quite welcoming face to Zope 3 technology - last week we had an all-new website going online. Since we just had to worry about grok for that one, we could move more quickly. We definitely designed it so it wouldn't lose out too badly in the comparison with the websites of other web frameworks. People don't move to zope for the same reason you wouldn't hire an interior designer who has an ugly house. If things don't really get moving on this front in the near future, it might be a good idea to make zope.org a summer of code project. Would anyone else like to start a new discussion thread on the topic of zope.org? I sure would. So, as I said above, this is not a new topic. People, including myself, have been pointing this out for years. In public. :) Please do contact Martin Aspeli and join the effort already in progress! Note that we need people who can contribute *content* to the website the most. Those have been the hardest to find in the past. We are beyond technology discussions and the design work is also in good hands. Regards, Martijn ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
I'll take that as STFU ;-) Got it. - C Marius Gedminas wrote: On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 11:06:48AM -0500, Chris McDonough wrote: I typed four more paragraphs full of markety stuff here but deleted them. *cheers* Marius Gedminas ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 3.4.0 candidate 1 Released
Stephan Richter wrote: On Friday 01 February 2008, Martijn Faassen wrote: http://www.openplans.org/projects/zorg-redux This project does not seem to be public. Right - thanks Martijn for spilling the beans prematurely. ;-) We haven't wanted to make too much of a splash about this until we have something tangle and working that we can actually present. Suffice it to say that we have Zope Foundation support and the right people involved. Once those people have produced a site, with a theme and some initial content that shows the direction we're proposing, we want to open it up for further suggestions and new content from a wider audience. Until we have that, though, we risk either getting lost in the noise of general development or disagreements (both of which have killed previous zope.org efforts), or setting expections that we can't meet. So - please bear with us. I hope we'll have something in the next few weeks, but of course it's hard to predict when everyone is working on best endeavours. Cheers, Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
