More simply even that that, Pei, when it comes across a task and a choice of
options, if it sees no benefit 5% (arbitrary setting or 0%) does your system
choose randomly between between the choices?
Doesnt this make the system non-deterministic...
Otherwise agree with your description.
: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
I believe many of the confusions on this topic is caused by the
following self-evident belief: A system is fundamentally either
deterministic or non-deterministic. The human mind, with free will, is
fundamentally non-deterministic; a conventional
and,
offhand, I imagine, most AGI's, couldn't begin to measure and compare
options, with that degree of precision
- Original Message -
From: James Ratcliff
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
More
I should have added -- the difference between options can be much greater
than 5% - humans and, offhand, I imagine, most AGI's, couldn't begin to
measure and compare options, with that degree of precision... for most
decisions (not, of course, all)
-
This list is sponsored by AGIRI:
] The Advantages of aConscious Mind
More simply even that that, Pei, when it comes across a taskand a choice of
options, if it sees no benefit 5% (arbitrary setting or0%) does your
system choose randomly between between thechoices?
Doesnt this make the systemnon-deterministic
Mike and James:
Please see my reply under a new subject, which also addressed the later posts.
Pei
On 5/8/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I should have added -- the difference between options can be much greater
than 5% - humans and, offhand, I imagine, most AGI's, couldn't
: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That would indeed be free, nondeterministic choice, which, as I understood,
Pei ruled out for his system.
The only qualifications are:
* choosing randomly
Ben, Pei,
How does your system handle choices such as this?
When given a fork can you return a % or number value back about which choice is
the best?
How finely graded does this get?
I believe simplisticly the blocks world example has to have a value function
when it calls something like
James,
For this level of details, you'll need to read my technical writings,
such as Confidence as Higher-Order Uncertainty
(http://nars.wang.googlepages.com/wang.confidence.pdf).
Pei
On 5/8/07, James Ratcliff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ben, Pei,
How does your system handle choices such as
On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Pei,
I assumed your system is determinisitc from your posts, not your papers. So
I'm still really, genuinely confused by your position. You didn't actually
answer my question (unless I've missed something in all these posts) re how
your system
J. Storrs Hall, PhD. writes:
NVIDIA claims half a teraflop for the 8800 gtx. You need an embarassingly
parallel problem, tho.
That claim is slightly bogus (I think they are figuring in some
graphics-specific feature which would rarely if ever be used by general
purpose algorithms [texture
On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
YKY: Consciousness is not central to AGI .
The human mind consists of a two-tier structure. On top, you have this
conscious, executive mind that takes most of the decisions about which way
the system will go - basically does the steering. On
Mike,
The extent to which there is a rigid distinction between these two tiers in
the human brain/mind is not entirely clear. The human brain seems to have
some distinct memory subsystems associated with various sorts of short term
memory or working memory, but the notion of executive
freedom too - it's hard to see dreams, for example, as
deterministic affairs, Well, your dreams maybe, but not mine, you
understand...).
- Original Message -
From: Benjamin Goertzel
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages
Mike,
The conscious mind thinks literally, freely. How long it will spend on any
given decision, and what course of thought it will pursue in reaching that
decision are definitely NOT set, but free.
Ah, well, I'm glad to see the age-old problem of free will versus
determinism is solved now!
Consider a ship. From one point of view, you could separate the people aboard
into two groups: the captain and the crew. But another just as reasonable
point of view is that captain is just one member of the crew, albeit one
distinguished in some ways.
One could reasonably take the point of
As Nietzsche put it, from a functional point of view, consciousness is like
the general who, after the fact, takes responsibility for the largely
autonomous actions of his troops ;-)
However, none of these metaphors addresses the issue of first vs. third
person perspectives
I hate to trumpet
On Sunday 06 May 2007 07:49, Benjamin Goertzel wrote:
As Nietzsche put it, from a functional point of view, consciousness is like
the general who, after the fact, takes responsibility for the largely
autonomous actions of his troops ;-)
That's actually pretty close to the way (I think) it
Consider a ship. From one point of view, you could separate the people
aboard
into two groups: the captain and the crew. But another just as reasonable
point of view is that captain is just one member of the crew, albeit one
distinguished in some ways.
Really? Bush? Browne [BP, just
Mike,
Since you mentioned me and NARS, I feel the need to clarify my
position on the related issues.
*. I agree with you that in many situations, the decision-making
procedure doesn't follow predetermined algorithm, which give people
the feeling of free will. On the other hand, at a deeper
.
- Original Message -
*From:* Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* agi@v2.listbox.com
*Sent:* Sunday, May 06, 2007 11:49 AM
*Subject:* Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
The conscious mind thinks literally, freely. How long it will spend on
any given decision
J Storrs Hall, PhD. writes:
As long as the trumpets are blaring, Beyond AI is coming out this month,
with
the coolest cover I've seen on any non-fiction book (he says modestly):
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-AI-Creating-Conscience-Machine/dp/1591025117
Cool! I just pre-ordered my copy!
Look
:* Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
The extent to which there is a rigid distinction between these two
tiers in the human brain/mind is not entirely clear. The human
brain seems to have some distinct memory subsystems associated with
various sorts of short
Mike Tintner wrote:
There is a crashingly obvious difference between a rational computer and
a human mind - and the only way cognitive science has managed not to
see it is by resolutely refusing to look at it, just as it resolutely
refused to look at the conscious mind in the first place. The
Mike Tintner wrote:
Now to the rational philosopher and scientist and to the classical AI
person, this is all terrible (as well as flatly contradicting one of the
most fundamental assumptions of cognitive science, i.e. that humans
think rationally). We are indeed only human not [rational,
Mike Tintner wrote:
And if you're a betting man, pay attention to Dennett. He wrote about
Consciousness in the early 90's, together with Crick helped make it
scientifically respectable. About five years later, consciousness
studies swept science and philosophy.
Nonsense.
Dennett's approach
-
From: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner wrote:
And if you're a betting man, pay attention to Dennett. He wrote about
Consciousness in the early 90's, together
: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner wrote:
Now to the rational philosopher and scientist and to the classical AI
person, this is all terrible (as well as flatly contradicting
] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner wrote:
There is a crashingly obvious difference between a rational computer and
a human mind - and the only way cognitive science has managed not to see
it is by resolutely refusing to look at it, just as it resolutely refused
to look
On 5/6/07, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, I'll match my understanding and knowledge of, and ideas on, the
free will issue against anyone's.
Arrogant much?
I just introduced an entirely new dimension to the free will debate. You
literally won't find it anywhere. Including Dennett.
with Daniel's problem, but in one form or other, AGI, I believe, will
have to.
- Original Message -
From: Pei Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 3:47 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
Since you mentioned me and NARS
Without getting into what consciousness is in humans, and how that works,
some type of controller or attention module must be done in an AGI, because
given a wide range of options and goals, it must allocate its time and enery
into what it should be doign at any one point in time.
The design
Mike,
I believe many of the confusions on this topic is caused by the
following self-evident belief: A system is fundamentally either
deterministic or non-deterministic. The human mind, with free will, is
fundamentally non-deterministic; a conventional computer, being Turing
Machine, is
Mike Tintner wrote:
Cognitive science treats humans as thinking like computers - rationally,
if boundedly rationally.
Which part of cognitive science treats humans as thinking irrationally,
as I have described ? (There may be some misunderstandings here which
hve to be ironed out, but I
Mike Tintner wrote:
Er nonsense to you too. :}
Part of my asserting myself boldly here, was to say: look, I may be a
schmuck on AI but I know a lot, here ( in fact I'll stand by the rest
of my claims, - although if you guys can't recognize, for example, that
free thinking opens up a new
On Sunday 06 May 2007 10:18, Mike Tintner wrote:
Consider a ship. From one point of view, you could separate the people
aboard into two groups: the captain and the crew. But another just as
reasonable point of view is that captain is just one member of the crew,
albeit one distinguished in
On Sunday 06 May 2007 09:47, Mike Tintner wrote:
And if you're a betting man, pay attention to Dennett. He wrote about
Consciousness in the early 90's, together with Crick helped make it
scientifically respectable.
Actually, the serious study of consciousness was made respectable by Julian
On Sunday 06 May 2007 09:47, Mike Tintner wrote:
For example - and this is the real issue that concerns YOU and AGI - I just
introduced an entirely new dimension to the free will debate.
Everybody and his dog, especially the philosophers, thinks that they have some
special insight into free
, this is, paradoxically, good
design..
- Original Message -
From: Pei Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
I believe many of the confusions on this topic is caused by the
following self-evident
If there's any confusion, think about many women and dieting. They will be
confronted by much the same decisions about whether to eat or not to eat
on
possibly thousands of occasions throughout their lives. And over and over,
throughout their entire lives, they will - freely - decide now this
On May 6, 2007, at 2:27 PM, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote:
The only person, for my money, who has really seen through it is Drew
McDermott, Yale CS prof (former student of Minsky). He points out
that almost
any straightforward mental architecture for a robot that models the
world for
planning
: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike,
I believe many of the confusions on this topic is caused by the
following self-evident belief: A system is fundamentally either
deterministic or non-deterministic. The human mind, with free will, is
fundamentally non-deterministic
On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Pei,
I don't think there's any confusion here. Your system as you describe it IS
deterministic. Whether an observer might be confused by it is irrelevant.
Equally the fact that it is determined by a complex set of algorithms
applying to various
On Sunday 06 May 2007 17:59, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:
On May 6, 2007, at 2:27 PM, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote:
The only person, for my money, who has really seen through it is Drew
McDermott, Yale CS prof (former student of Minsky). ...
Eh? Unless McDermott first came up with that idea long
J. Storrs Hall, PhD. writes:
I'm intending to do lo-level vision on (one) 8800 and everything else on my
(dual) Clovertowns.
Do you have any particular architectures / algorithms you're working on?
Your
approach and mine sound like there could be valuable shared effort...
First I'm going
On May 6, 2007, at 4:08 PM, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote:
On Sunday 06 May 2007 17:59, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:
On May 6, 2007, at 2:27 PM, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote:
The only person, for my money, who has really seen through it is
Drew
McDermott, Yale CS prof (former student of Minsky). ...
of Psychology, Neurobiology, Computer Science,
Linguistics, and Philosophy.
- Original Message - From: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner wrote:
Cognitive
] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
Mike Tintner wrote:
Cognitive science treats humans as thinking like computers -
rationally, if boundedly rationally.
Which part of cognitive science treats humans as thinking irrationally,
as I have described ? (There may be some misunderstandings here which
, May 06, 2007 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind
On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Pei,
I don't think there's any confusion here. Your system as you describe it
IS
deterministic. Whether an observer might be confused by it is irrelevant.
Equally
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