[apple-crop] Research

[Hugh Thomas]

A couple of ideas for you PhD/research types. How about using UV light to
kill frost nucleating bacteria, or UV to kill the fire blight bacteria?  A
light bank could be towed behind a tractor and the trees could be
irradiated by UV light.
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Re: [apple-crop] Freeze/Frost Damage

[Hugh Thomas]

Hope it works out. How about using a helicopter for the copper sprays?
Three days ago - snow in the Caribbean Islands!
http://www.climatedepot.com/2016/04/03/never-before-seen-spring-snowfall-in-the-caribbean-islands-colorado-ski-resort-snowiest-in-50-years-snow-chaos-in-germany/

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Dennis Norton <
dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com> wrote:

> Fortunately, our issue has not been with injury from the cold snap, but
> the fact that we are still unable to get our first copper spray on. We have
> gotten nearly 2" of rain int he past week and the orchard is a mud pit!
> Last Sunday it hit 70 here in northern Illinois/southern Wisconsin with a
> wind of 15 to 20 MPH and way too windy to spray. It dried out some, but not
> enough to get the tractors through.  Then the trees went from silver tip to
> green tip in just a few hours.  But by Sunday night is was down to 25 and
> our average high has been in the high 30's and low in the mid 20's since,
> until last night when it hit 21.  Luckily the trees slowed down enough to
> stay pretty much at green tip.  It is still too wet to get into the orchard
> to spray and we are hoping for an 8 to 6 hour window to spray our copper
> tomorrow when the predicted high is 53 and low is 32.  We need enough time
> to get in to spray and give the copper enough time to dry before the temps
> drop.  By Thursday night, the lows are expected to hit freezing again with
> a low of 22 predicted for Friday night.  it looks like we are stuck in this
> pattern of low night temps as long as the jet stream keeps coming out of
> our northwest.  We have an inch of snow predicted for Friday night, but at
> least we are not in Michigan where they are predicting 3" to 6" of snow
> tonight through tomorrow afternoon.  I'm thinking about you growers in
> Michigan right now!!
>
> Dennis Norton
> IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
> Royal Oak Farm Orchard
> 15908 Hebron Rd.
> Harvard, IL 60033-9357
> Office (815) 648-4467
> Mobile (815) 228-2174
> Fax (609) 
> 228-2174http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.comhttp://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.comhttps://www.facebook.com/royaloakfarmorchard/
>
> On 4/4/2016 5:44 PM, maurice tougas wrote:
>
> We will know better in a few days Christina. Wish I could sleep better!
> Mo
>
> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Christina M. Herrick <
> cmherr...@meistermedia.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any losses from the latest cold snap? Dave and Christina
>> from *American Fruit Grower* would like to talk to you about it. Send
>> Dave Eddy (de...@meistermedia.com) or Christina Herrick (
>> cmherr...@meistermedia.com) a note.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Maurice Tougas
> Tougas Family Farm
> Northborough,MA 01532
> 508-450-0844
>
>
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Re: [apple-crop] apple size

[Hugh Thomas]

Another way to reduce N is to grow grass under the trees and mow and bag
the grass and haul the grass clippings away.  Sounds labor intensive but
hot so bad if you use a commercial mower.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Arthur Kelly <kellyorcha...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> We are trying some hard-cider blends with them Mo.
>
> Art
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 8:53 PM, maurice tougas <
> appleman.maur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "JuicyGold".
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Shoemaker, William H <
>> wshoe...@illinois.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> What region did you observe the Morren's Jonagored Supra on B9 Jon? Can
>>> you say something about chilling requirement for that cultivar? I think
>>> Jonagold is an excellent apple for fresh eating. If the New England Apple
>>> Association wants to brand it, I think they are making a good choice.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> *William H. Shoemaker *
>>>
>>> *Retired fruit and vegetable horticulturist*
>>>
>>> *University of Illinois*
>>>
>>> wshoe...@illinois.edu
>>> --
>>> *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
>>> apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Jon Clements [
>>> jon.cleme...@umass.edu]
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 10, 2016 4:56 PM
>>> *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] apple size
>>>
>>> Root pruning: YES
>>> Withhold nitrogen: YES
>>> Minimize dormant pruning, do some summer pruning (but don't remove
>>> fruit): YES
>>> Use Apogee: YES
>>> Over-crop: YES maybe, but use NAA and/or Ethrel to promote return bloom
>>> development
>>> Use B.9 rootstock (as opposed to M.9): YES
>>> Make sure you have enough variety to pollinate: YES
>>>
>>> I found Morren's Jonagored Supra (Willow Drive) grown on B.9 rootstock
>>> to be a very nice Jonagold strain. Good crops without too many large fruit.
>>> Still have to watch biennial bearing. I would plant that strain in a
>>> heartbeat if I want Jonagold.
>>>
>>> Did you hear New England Apple Association is going to brand Jonagold
>>> apples grown in New England? Not sure, however, what they are calling it?
>>>
>>> Any other ideas out there?
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Hugh Thomas <hughthoma...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I've always wondered about root pruning with a deep running and large
>>>> disk. Just a thought...
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Kollas <kol...@frontier.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Art:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t know whence the observations or measurements
>>>>> have come, but I saw a rootstock comparison
>>>>> in which G202 was said to produce “smaller fruit size.”   For
>>>>> the reason you mention, I hope this is true, and of
>>>>> more than just statistical significance.  I suspect that if it
>>>>> were a practical difference, we would have heard more
>>>>> about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> David Kollas
>>>>> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 9, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Arthur Kelly <kellyorcha...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Any suggestions out there for how to reduce fruit size without
>>>>> getting into biennial bearing as in not thinning?  Some varieties
>>>>> (Jonagold) would be more marketable if they were 2.75 - 3.0" instead of 
>>>>> all
>>>>> more than 3.0".
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Art Kelly
>>>>> > Kelly Orchards
>>>>> > Acton, ME
>>>>> > ___
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>>>>> > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
>>>>> > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
>>>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__virtualorchard.net_mailman_listinfo_apple-2Dcrop=BQMFaQ=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ=1ejiT2NQyeKzdraKv8xrAbS0Mb4hB-tICIci2skuNv8=Hqq9Z6y5B9TNZ_9uOOp_yPhDCrjsh2nAbw-m9OO3M3s=V2zkAU1v4QS4CuU-kRUNoAnna22k1wBv9M-ekLVv

Re: [apple-crop] apple size

[Hugh Thomas]

I've always wondered about root pruning with a deep running and large disk.
Just a thought...

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Kollas  wrote:

>
>
> Art:
>
> I don’t know whence the observations or measurements have
> come, but I saw a rootstock comparison
> in which G202 was said to produce “smaller fruit size.”   For the
> reason you mention, I hope this is true, and of
> more than just statistical significance.  I suspect that if it
> were a practical difference, we would have heard more
> about it.
>
> David Kollas
> Kollas Orchard, Connecticut
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 12:01 PM, Arthur Kelly  wrote:
>
> > Any suggestions out there for how to reduce fruit size without getting
> into biennial bearing as in not thinning?  Some varieties (Jonagold) would
> be more marketable if they were 2.75 - 3.0" instead of all more than 3.0".
> >
> > --
> > Art Kelly
> > Kelly Orchards
> > Acton, ME
> > ___
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[apple-crop] Bill Fleming

[Hugh Thomas]

I don't know how many of you guys know this, but Bill Fleming died last
October here in Corvallis, Montana. Bill was a super person, a good friend
and had a wealth of knowledge about apples, wheat and everything in
between. He was the farm manager at the Montana State University
experimental station in Corvallis. From what I understand, Bill had a blood
disease, had only a few days to live and took his own life.

If I had a question about a hay bailer or the depth to plant winter wheat
or what was causing the funny shaped leaves on my apples I turned to Bill
and got the answer in an instant. His death is a big loss.
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Re: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor

[Hugh Thomas]

Another indicator is that, if you need to train or supervise them, they
cannot be independent contractors. For example, if you hire a contractor to
replace your roof, that's fine, he knows what to do. If you hire a teen and
teach them how to pick, prune, etc, they are an employee.

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 7:24 PM, Mark  Helen Angermayer 
angermay...@gmail.com wrote:

 Wanted to thank everyone of the comments on this discussion.
 Definitely gave me some guidance.

 Mark Angermayer
 Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
 Bucyrus KS




 On 4/9/15, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:
   I would check with a labor attorney. “Contract labor” has been used by
  businesses as a ruse to skirt the requirements for matching Social
  Security, report injuries, avoid paying workman’s comp, etc. I went
 through
  this thing in the 1990’s and found that “contract labor” is loophole that
  has a small and dangerous loop. Back then, it was a auditing trigger for
  the tax people. Things may have changed, but I doubt that teenagers would
  be considered contract labor if they are under 18,  need to be trained or
  supervised.
 
  On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:30 AM, rollinsorcha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  I also suggest that you get clarification from your insurance company.
  They may have a stricter definition.
 
  My interpretation of my insurance policy is:  if the person performing
  the
  work has their own insurance policy to cover work done for others then
  they
  qualify as contracted labor.  Anyone without their own insurance is an
  employee for insurance purposes, regardless of how they are paid.
 
 
 
  Ernest Rollins
  Owner
  Rollins Orchards, Garland, Maine, USA
  A Family Farm since 1821
  rollinsorcha...@gmail.com
  www.RollinsOrchards.com
 
 
  Ernest Rollins
  Rollins Orchards
  Garland, Maine
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Mark  Helen Angermayer angermay...@gmail.com
  Sender: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
  Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:01:44
  To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Reply-To: Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Subject: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor
 
  I plan to hire some high school kids to help me thin fruit this year.
  They will only be working for about a month it takes to thin the
  fruit.
 
  I'm uncertain if this temporary employment  would fall under employees
  or contract labor.  I've looked at the definitions, but still unclear.
 
  Some of the requirements of contract labor vs. employees are who
  provides tools, and who defines work schedule.  Obviously there are no
  tools required for fruit thinning, other than one's hands.  I intend
  be flexible on when the kids can work, so am not setting work times.
  The kids would be hired individually, not as a thinning crew.
 
  The dollar cost is the same to me either way (because I plan on paying
  more for contract labor and less for employees) but the paperwork is
  less for contract labor.  I'm a very small commercial grower, so FUTA
  is not a consideration.
 
  Any help would be appreciated.
 
  Mark Angermayer
  Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
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Re: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor

[Hugh Thomas]

 I would check with a labor attorney. “Contract labor” has been used by
businesses as a ruse to skirt the requirements for matching Social
Security, report injuries, avoid paying workman’s comp, etc. I went through
this thing in the 1990’s and found that “contract labor” is loophole that
has a small and dangerous loop. Back then, it was a auditing trigger for
the tax people. Things may have changed, but I doubt that teenagers would
be considered contract labor if they are under 18,  need to be trained or
supervised.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 9:30 AM, rollinsorcha...@gmail.com wrote:

 I also suggest that you get clarification from your insurance company.
 They may have a stricter definition.

 My interpretation of my insurance policy is:  if the person performing the
 work has their own insurance policy to cover work done for others then they
 qualify as contracted labor.  Anyone without their own insurance is an
 employee for insurance purposes, regardless of how they are paid.



 Ernest Rollins
 Owner
 Rollins Orchards, Garland, Maine, USA
 A Family Farm since 1821
 rollinsorcha...@gmail.com
 www.RollinsOrchards.com


 Ernest Rollins
 Rollins Orchards
 Garland, Maine

 -Original Message-
 From: Mark  Helen Angermayer angermay...@gmail.com
 Sender: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
 Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2015 10:01:44
 To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 Reply-To: Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 Subject: [apple-crop] Employee vs. Contract labor

 I plan to hire some high school kids to help me thin fruit this year.
 They will only be working for about a month it takes to thin the
 fruit.

 I'm uncertain if this temporary employment  would fall under employees
 or contract labor.  I've looked at the definitions, but still unclear.

 Some of the requirements of contract labor vs. employees are who
 provides tools, and who defines work schedule.  Obviously there are no
 tools required for fruit thinning, other than one's hands.  I intend
 be flexible on when the kids can work, so am not setting work times.
 The kids would be hired individually, not as a thinning crew.

 The dollar cost is the same to me either way (because I plan on paying
 more for contract labor and less for employees) but the paperwork is
 less for contract labor.  I'm a very small commercial grower, so FUTA
 is not a consideration.

 Any help would be appreciated.

 Mark Angermayer
 Tubby Fruits Peach Orchard
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Re: [apple-crop] non-GMO non-browning apples

[Hugh Thomas]

Also this one... http://www.apples.umn.edu/SnowSweet/index.htm

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Fleming, William w...@montana.edu wrote:

 Braeburn and Cortland are also non-browning.

 Bill Fleming
 Montana State University
 Western Ag Research Center
 580 Quast Lane
 Corvallis, MT 59828

 -Original Message-
 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David Doud
 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 10:42 AM
 To: Apple-Crop
 Subject: [apple-crop] non-GMO non-browning apples

 If anyone has a need for an apple that doesn't brown, I'd be happy to send
 a stick or three of 'Sweet Emma', a chance seedling from grandfathers farm
 - white flesh that doesn't ever even hint of turning brown even while it
 dries to a crisp - a little flattened, red, 2.75, ripe early Oct, mild
 sweet crisp like a RD would dream of being -  vigorous tree, early
 blooming, very scab susceptible, doesn't fill bins like Melrose or Mutsu,
 loses quality in six weeks (would probably respond well to 'Smart-Fresh') -
 I sell quite a few between Oct 5 and Thanksgiving -

 No charge - no obligation -
 David Doud


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Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

[Hugh Thomas]

Understanding GMO is like understanding weather, there is a lot of
superstition involved.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:53 PM, Ginda Fisher l...@ginda.us wrote:

  If it makes you feel any better, that number is likely significantly
 overstated. I have two Facebook accounts. Dead people and pets have
 Facebook accounts. Many people created a Facebook account but never use it.

 Also, Facebook is a big place, and nobody reads all of it. Saying there
 is misinformation on Facebook is sort of like saying there is
 misinformation in newspapers.

 Ginda Fisher
 Apple consumer
 --
 Typed with Swype. Who knows what I meant to say?


 On March 30, 2015 5:52:00 PM EDT, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:

 I jsut read the last data from Facebook that indicates they have over 1.3
 billion users!  When I see the erroneous information that gets posted to
 the news feed on Facebook about GMO's, Monsanto and the Arctic apple, and
 the number of people that believe this stuff.it scares me to think what
 the future of growers and farmers is going to become!!

 Dennis Norton
 IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman/IT Specialist
 Royal Oak Farm Orchard
 15908 Hebron Rd.
 Harvard, IL 60033-9357
 Office (815) 648-4467
 Mobile (815) 228-2174
 Fax (609) 228-2174
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com
 https://www.facebook.com/royaloakfarmorchard/

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Craig Tanner cr...@tannersorchard.com
 *To:* 'Apple-crop discussion list' apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 3:25 PM
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

 *GMO apples may contaminate nearby organic and conventional apple
 orchards* and could potentially cause valuable export markets to reject
 U.S. apples as happened in past when wheat and rice crops were found to be
 contaminated by GMOs. A - See more at:
 http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples#sthash.FRll2V3z.dpuf

 what?  how?  this statement makes my head spin

 Craig Tanner
 Tanners Orchard, Ltd.
 Speer, IL
 309-493-5442
 309-493-5741 fax
 306-360-5610 cell


  --
 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *David Doud
 *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 11:28 AM
 *To:* Apple-Crop
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] Arctic Apples again -

  Sorry to beat this, but I think it's in our interest to stay informed -
 if the powers that be want me to give it a rest, I will -

 I copy and paste an email that went out to subscribers to Well.org - it
 was forwarded to me - I am unfamiliar with this organization and a peek at
 their website doesn't impress and the website itself doesn't have any
 content about Arctic Apples -

 I've been made aware of at least one other organization promoting
 anti-Arctic Apple sentiment -
 http://www.foe.org/projects/food-and-technology/genetic-engineering/no-gmo-apples


 I investigated the claim that McDonald's and Gerber... and it's not as
 presented - they have 'no plans' because there is no product available to
 buy, but they have not rejected and Gerber specifically admits and defends
 using GMO products -

 Looks like battle lines are being drawn and strategies arctic-ulated -

 David Doud
 peach leaf curl spray this week -
 2012 on this date was apple full bloom - not at silver tip yet this year,
 but soon -

*You're hearing from us because you subscribed via Well.org
 http://vitaloriginswellorgllc.cmail2.com/t/t-l-thbijk-illrihdyd-j/. Last
 year, we released the Origins documentary for free to over 700,000 people
 across the world. If you want to unsubscribe, *


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Re: [apple-crop] lightning

[Hugh Thomas]

My sister in Ohio recently told me that a local orchard near her tried
using wires like yours ( I have a tresses system here in Montana) and had
lighting kill a lot of their trees. Must be something to it...

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:39 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 Anyone know of lightning strikes on wire trellised systems, and the
 effects on the trees?



 Has anyone studied the attractiveness of these systems to lightning
 strikes, and whether grounding and foliage has much to do with it?



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 Gorham ME



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Re: [apple-crop] How to excise malus seeds

[Hugh Thomas]

Try a rock tumbler. This is a small rotary drum that is rubber lined. You
can add the seed plus a grit, say silicon carbide or sand. Basically, the
thing turns and the seeds will wear away in time. Might only take a few
minutes or may take a day or two. I'm thinking the 120/220 grit would work
well. http://geology.com/rock-tumbler/rock-tumblers.shtml

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Ian Alexander Merwin i...@cornell.edu
wrote:

  Lee-
 We used to germinate thousands of apple seeds each year to use in our
 replant disease soil bioassays.  Our protocol was to collect the seeds from
 apples that had been in cold storage for a month or so; rinse them in a 10%
 clorox solution; then dust them with captan or a similar fungicide; then
 line them out in trays of moist peat moss or vermiculite.  We could
 germinate several hundred seeds per 12 by 24 inch tray, planting them about
 1 inch deep in parallel seed lines about 2 inches apart.  After several
 months in a 40 degree F refrigerator the healthy seeds would germinate and
 sprout.  We would transplant them into 4 inch pots with soft tweezers, when
 they had 2 to 4 true leaves (not counting the cotyledons). You could also
 group the resultant seedlings by their probable chill unit requirements,
 assuming that those germinating first had lower chill requirements.  Hope
 this is helpful!

  By the way Lee, those cider apple trees that I got from you on Bud.9
 rootstocks about 20 years ago are all still growing and producing well in
 my home orchard!  Several of them (Kingston Black, Stoke’s Red, Magog
 Redstreak, White Jersey, etc.) have provided a lot of useful budwood for
 local nurseries to propagate those varieties, which has been a great help
 to craft cider-makers.  Thanks!
 Cheers
 Ian
  
 Ian  Jackie Merwin
 Black Diamond Farm, LLC
 4675 East Seneca Road
 Trumansburg, NY, USA, 14886
 E-mail:  i...@cornell.edu
 Website:  www.incredapple.com




  On Jan 05, 2015, at 11:27 AM, lee elliott pippm...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Anyone know an easy way to excise malus seeds, in my efforts to breed next
 generations of my  Honey Crisp crosses I always have about half of my
 collected seeds are excised (split) and embryo are easy to remove.
 (germination rate of embryos removed from seed coat are much higher, close
 to 90% while unexcised seeds is  about 15%) The best way so far is to soak
 the seed(after statification) and drag the seed gently accross a piece of
 sandpaper, rubbing the side of the seed where the hilum is located, then
 prying it apart with fingernails. this a very slow tedious procedure and
 may even contaminate the embryo. With hundreds of seed to excise and poor
 eyesight this is a most daunting task. I have googled this but nothing
 comes up, any ideas?   Lee Elliott, Cider Hill Nursery, Winchester, Illinois

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Re: [apple-crop] How to excise malus seeds

[Hugh Thomas]

P.S. Forgot to mention that you and then separate the seeds from the grit
with a kitchen strainer.

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 Try a rock tumbler. This is a small rotary drum that is rubber lined. You
 can add the seed plus a grit, say silicon carbide or sand. Basically, the
 thing turns and the seeds will wear away in time. Might only take a few
 minutes or may take a day or two. I'm thinking the 120/220 grit would work
 well. http://geology.com/rock-tumbler/rock-tumblers.shtml

 On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Ian Alexander Merwin i...@cornell.edu
 wrote:

  Lee-
 We used to germinate thousands of apple seeds each year to use in our
 replant disease soil bioassays.  Our protocol was to collect the seeds from
 apples that had been in cold storage for a month or so; rinse them in a 10%
 clorox solution; then dust them with captan or a similar fungicide; then
 line them out in trays of moist peat moss or vermiculite.  We could
 germinate several hundred seeds per 12 by 24 inch tray, planting them about
 1 inch deep in parallel seed lines about 2 inches apart.  After several
 months in a 40 degree F refrigerator the healthy seeds would germinate and
 sprout.  We would transplant them into 4 inch pots with soft tweezers, when
 they had 2 to 4 true leaves (not counting the cotyledons). You could also
 group the resultant seedlings by their probable chill unit requirements,
 assuming that those germinating first had lower chill requirements.  Hope
 this is helpful!

  By the way Lee, those cider apple trees that I got from you on Bud.9
 rootstocks about 20 years ago are all still growing and producing well in
 my home orchard!  Several of them (Kingston Black, Stoke’s Red, Magog
 Redstreak, White Jersey, etc.) have provided a lot of useful budwood for
 local nurseries to propagate those varieties, which has been a great help
 to craft cider-makers.  Thanks!
 Cheers
 Ian
  
 Ian  Jackie Merwin
 Black Diamond Farm, LLC
 4675 East Seneca Road
 Trumansburg, NY, USA, 14886
 E-mail:  i...@cornell.edu
 Website:  www.incredapple.com




  On Jan 05, 2015, at 11:27 AM, lee elliott pippm...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Anyone know an easy way to excise malus seeds, in my efforts to breed
 next generations of my  Honey Crisp crosses I always have about half of my
 collected seeds are excised (split) and embryo are easy to remove.
 (germination rate of embryos removed from seed coat are much higher, close
 to 90% while unexcised seeds is  about 15%) The best way so far is to soak
 the seed(after statification) and drag the seed gently accross a piece of
 sandpaper, rubbing the side of the seed where the hilum is located, then
 prying it apart with fingernails. this a very slow tedious procedure and
 may even contaminate the embryo. With hundreds of seed to excise and poor
 eyesight this is a most daunting task. I have googled this but nothing
 comes up, any ideas?   Lee Elliott, Cider Hill Nursery, Winchester, Illinois

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Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Jon,
I did mean Chateau. my experience last year was that suckers sprayed with
the material looked sick in a few days. In 2-3 weeks they were easily
pulled, usually with the node and some roots coming up as well. I've
found that pulling a 5-6mm healthy sucker (1/4 inch) may take 50 pounds or
more pull to get it out of the ground. After Chateau, the pull was reduced
greatly, to maybe 5-10 pounds, and I could grab 2-3 at the time.  Again,
this is anecdotal info and no science was employed what-so-ever.

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 3:54 PM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.edu wrote:

 Hugh, I figured you mean't Chateau. Chateau can only be applied pre-bud
 break (silver tip for apple) or by extension, presumably in the fall after
 harvest. Dave, Venue (Nichino) has a supplemental label specific for sucker
 management in pome and stone fruit. It works best when tank-mixed with
 another contact herbicide such as paraquat (Gramoxone) or
 glufosinate-ammonium (Rely). (Or glyphosate, but I know how much you love
 that stuff!) As always, avoid direct contact to the tree trunk,
 particularly young trees, with any contact herbicide to avoid long-term
 injury to the tree.

 Jon

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 11:02 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Hi everyone,
 By mistake I made the comment that  Chaparral was effective against
 apple suckers, I should have said, Chateau is effective. Sorry about the
 mix-up...

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 David,
 My Chaparral label does mention apple. I don't have access to the label
 at the moment, but I will in a few days. This herbicide is also very
 effective in weed control in your strips. I now spray once with Chaparral
 and maybe once with roundup rather than 4-6 times with roundup. (per
 season) I'm sure if you contact Dow they will fill you in. I'll get a
 chance to read my label and get back to you in a few days. Also,
 consider Paraquat. This is a very effective material for sucker burn down.
 I think Paraquat is also labeled for apple.
 Hugh

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David A. Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu
  wrote:

  Hello, Hugh —

  I was interested in your comment about controlling apple root suckers
 with Chaparral herbicide because root suckers have become a major headache
 in some of our older research plots.  However, when I checked the Chaparral
 label on the CDMS website, I can’t find any label that includes apples. Do
 you have a special state label for apples, or were you thinking of a
 different herbicide?

  The Chaparral labels that I found indicate that it is not registered
 at all in NY (no big surprise), but I’m still curious about products that
 might be used for chemical control of root suckers in other states.
 However, given all of the warnings on the Chaparral label about long-term
 residual effects, even in hay from treated fields, I’m wondering about
 long-term side effects on apples even if it were labeled.

  On Jan 1, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Steven,
 This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to
 weaken when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent
 but is labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of
 the sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
 spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
 wrote:

  Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting
 sucker reduction?



 On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I
 have seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
 locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
 central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
 also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.



 Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or
 just suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks 
 simply
 sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
 sucker buds scattered all over?



 For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit
 to manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
 reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?



 I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and
 B.9/MM.111, and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth 
 the
 one-time effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest
 suckers to control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any
 permanent sucker reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering
 rootstocks.



 I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate
 ignorant folk such as I.



 Grateful in advance,



 Steven Bibula

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 apple-crop

Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Steven,
This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to weaken
when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent but is
labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of the
sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting sucker
 reduction?



 On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I have
 seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
 locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
 central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
 also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.



 Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or just
 suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks simply
 sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
 sucker buds scattered all over?



 For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit to
 manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
 reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?



 I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and B.9/MM.111,
 and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth the one-time
 effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest suckers to
 control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any permanent sucker
 reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering rootstocks.



 I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate ignorant
 folk such as I.



 Grateful in advance,



 Steven Bibula

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Re: [apple-crop] research on suckering?

[Hugh Thomas]

Hi everyone,
By mistake I made the comment that  Chaparral was effective against apple
suckers, I should have said, Chateau is effective. Sorry about the
mix-up...

On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 1:20 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 David,
 My Chaparral label does mention apple. I don't have access to the label
 at the moment, but I will in a few days. This herbicide is also very
 effective in weed control in your strips. I now spray once with Chaparral
 and maybe once with roundup rather than 4-6 times with roundup. (per
 season) I'm sure if you contact Dow they will fill you in. I'll get a
 chance to read my label and get back to you in a few days. Also, consider
 Paraquat. This is a very effective material for sucker burn down. I think
 Paraquat is also labeled for apple.
 Hugh

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 12:05 PM, David A. Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu
 wrote:

  Hello, Hugh —

  I was interested in your comment about controlling apple root suckers
 with Chaparral herbicide because root suckers have become a major headache
 in some of our older research plots.  However, when I checked the Chaparral
 label on the CDMS website, I can’t find any label that includes apples. Do
 you have a special state label for apples, or were you thinking of a
 different herbicide?

  The Chaparral labels that I found indicate that it is not registered at
 all in NY (no big surprise), but I’m still curious about products that
 might be used for chemical control of root suckers in other states.
 However, given all of the warnings on the Chaparral label about long-term
 residual effects, even in hay from treated fields, I’m wondering about
 long-term side effects on apples even if it were labeled.

  On Jan 1, 2015, at 1:38 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

  Steven,
 This is off point, but as an aside, I have found suckers (Bud 9) to
 weaken when sprayed with the herbicide Chaparral. This is a pre emergent
 but is labeled for suckers on apple. The effect is a severe weakening of
 the sucker roots and they are very easy to pull a couple of weeks after the
 spray. This is only anecdotal evidence and my personal experience.

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
 wrote:

  Is there any information on the long term value of pre-planting sucker
 reduction?



 On some apple (and peach) rootstocks that arrive from the nursery, I
 have seen what appear to be cream-colored, corm-like ‘nodes’ at various
 locations on the roots themselves as well as the lower portions of the
 central portion; these all pop off relatively freely when wiggled.  I have
 also seen suckers up to a few inches long as well.



 Are these nodes the origination points of future sucker growth, or just
 suckers that are already on their way?  Do suckering rootstocks simply
 sucker from almost anywhere along their buried material, from dormant
 sucker buds scattered all over?



 For sucker control over the life of the planting, is there any benefit
 to manually removing these nodes and growing suckers?  Or would that only
 reduce the suckering for the spring of the planting year?



 I am planning to plant a lot of heavily-suckering Bud 9 and B.9/MM.111,
 and if long term benefits of removing these nodes are worth the one-time
 effort before planting, then I will do the work.  The hardest suckers to
 control are the ones right up next to the trunk, and any permanent sucker
 reduction would be nice on these heavily suckering rootstocks.



 I hope someone has done the research and is willing to educate ignorant
 folk such as I.



 Grateful in advance,



 Steven Bibula

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Re: [apple-crop] theft deterrence

[Hugh Thomas]

This is a crime in some states. Find out about your state/local laws and
inform your customers that you will enforce this law. I don't think this
will drive away any customers, at least the kind you want to keep.

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:13 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 A few U-Pick customers are so brazen about their theft that they eat
 berries and apples freely in front of me while coming out of the field
 toward the register.  I also see them positively gorging in the field, as
 if this were an AUCE establishment (we charge by the picked pound).  I am
 also troubled that the most visible offenders are adults with children,
 teaching those children that theft is okay.



 What do you do to deter theft and improve moral conduct?  As a part of our
 effort to awaken the conscience of our customers without offending or
 implicating those who are already self controlled, we are considering
 posting the following text on a tasteful sign at appropriate an location or
 two.

 Feedback from you is welcome.  Other ideas are welcome too.



 TO OUR VALUED CUSTOMERS:

 Please feel free to taste the fruit so you can pick with confidence.
 Because our fruit is also our livelihood, we ask that you please limit
 yourselves and members of your party to a small sample, and enjoy the rest
 after payment.  Thank you for your understanding and business! With your
 help, we can continue to provide enjoyable U-Pick experiences for years to
 come.

 Gratefully,

 The farmers-



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares

 Gorham Maine



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Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum
wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This
is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If
minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per
hour, or even better, $500 per hour?

When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free
market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US, simply
because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to
remain competitive.

Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the
poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world
experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if
the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal
for this kid to work for $6 per hour, *even* *if he wants to*. He is denied
this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the crap he
gets from government schools.

I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, More or less
government, when one makes their living from taxes collected by the
government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A weinz...@illinois.edu
 wrote:

 At the risk of being just another university person weighing in on this,
 I agree with David's points.

 Jimmy Buffet said it well ... The gods' honest truth is, it's not that
 simple ... and that applies when it comes to free market economics and
 lots of other things. Governments, laws, and policies that consider the
 public good and the needs of those at the lower end of the socioeconomic
 scale are essential.  Our national policies are fraught with political
 motivations and a variety of other dishonesties that taint the real issues,
 but it is an oversimplification to expect that all would be fine if we
 abandoned minimum wage laws and cancelled unemployment benefits.

 And I admit that this is my personal view and not a research finding from
 my day job as an entomologist.

 Rick Weinzierl

 Professor and Extension Entomologist
 IL SARE PDP Coordinator
 Department of Crop Sciences, University of Illinois
 S-334 Turner Hall, 1102 S. Goodwin Avenue
 Urbana, IL 61801
 217-244-2126


 -Original Message-
 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David A. Rosenberger
 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:31 PM
 To: Apple-crop discussion list
 Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

 So far as I know, there is no political quid pro quo for decisions on what
 products can be imported into the US or exported to other countries, and
 scientific concerns about importation of pests are given serious
 consideration.  Nevertheless, Bill's suggestion about trading apples for
 flip-flops hints at some factors that may ultimately impact negotiator
 positioning.  In this case, perhaps we should substitute soybeans for
 flip-flops.  Has anyone checked recently to see the value of soybeans and
 other ag exports from the US to China? And then of  course, we wouldn't
 want to  anger China into massive selling of the US securities that they
 have purchased over the past several decades while we spent our wealth on
 meaningless wars. Thus, we are inextricably linked in a world-wide economy
 that at times runs rough-shod over individual winners and losers.  In many
 cases, it is almost impossible to predict who those winners and losers will
 be as governments tug on the economic and
  political strings that interconnect countries.

 Reducing or eliminating minimum wage laws and unemployment insurance would
 not and will not solve any apple farmer problems related to US competitive
 capabilities in the world market. It would only increase the inequities and
 distancing of haves and have-nots in our county, inequities that ultimately
 contributed to the riots in major cities in the 1960's and that have
 contributed to current problems in Fergusson, MO.  Those who ignore
 history are doomed to repeat it.  It is very difficult to have a vibrant
 economy in the midst of anarchy. Increasing the gap between rich and poor
 while at the same time burning the bridges that allow social progress for
 those born into poverty will almost certainly increase the the probability
 of lawlessness among those without any hope for the future. Apple growers
 who think that they could live on the current minimum wage should try it
 for a year, recognizing of course that one must start the experiment
 without any housing, without a car, a
  nd with no credit rating.

 If you really believe that the free markets (i.e., no minimum wage, no
 unemployment benefits) will solve our problems consider this:  We already
 have a health care system that ranks somewhere around 29th when compared
 with those of other nations (and that was true before Obamacare was
 instituted).  Yet 

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

 enough crime even with minimum wage laws in place.  My point
 is that the straight-line assumption that reducing wages reduces costs is
 overly simplistic because it ignores the complexity of society and the
 unexpected costs of “externals” that impact every business enterprise in a
 destabilized society.

  I am currently on a trip during which my wife and I have driven nearly
 2000 miles through PA, OH, MI, IN, IL, WI, and MN. It appears to me that
 the interstate highway system is is worse condition now than at anytime
 since I began driving 51 years ago. We have saved a lot of taxes by
 delaying maintenance on highways and bridges, but as a result, all of us
 are paying more for wear on our cars, delays due to slow traffic, and
 perhaps even increases in accidents attributable to poor roads.  If the
 current trend continues, apple growers will soon be obliged to ship apples
 only in trucks that have air-cushion suspension because I suspect the rough
 highways will bruise apples riding to market in trucks just as much as they
 bruise my butt riding in a mid-size car. The need for a public highway
 system, along with numerous other government “services”, illustrates why a
 functional government and taxation system are essential for a civilized
 society.  There is certainly plenty of government waste that should be
 eliminated, but I suspect that most of that “waste” is actually going to
 the wealthy (think lobbyists, beltway bandits, defense contractors, farm
 subsidies) rather than to the welfare segment of our society.


 
 Dave Rosenberger, Professor Emeritus
  Dept. of Plant Pathology and Plant-Microbe Biology
  Cornell’s Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
 http://blogs.cornell.edu/plantpathhvl/blog-2014/
  

  On Aug 16, 2014, at 2:35 AM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

  There are many PhD's in economics, some with Nobel Prizes, that agree minimum
 wage laws and unemployment benefits drive up the cost of production. This
 is so easy to see that it is amazing anyone would think differently. If
 minimum wage laws do not create unemployment, why not raise it to $100 per
 hour, or even better, $500 per hour?

  When China dumped their Soviet style, state planned economy for a free
 market approach, they destroyed small manufacturing here in the US,
 simply because to comply with the restrictive laws here is too expensive to
 remain competitive.

  Many see high-cost government regulation as being benign, a help to the
 poor people. I see it differently. A 16 year-old kid could get real world
 experience de-tasseling corn or planting tomatoes - that is - if
 the government would allow him to work for a realistic wage. It is illegal
 for this kid to work for $6 per hour, *even* *if he wants to*. He is
 denied this experience, an experience for more valuable that much of the
 crap he gets from government schools.

  I would see it very hard to be objective about the question, More or
 less government, when one makes their living from taxes collected by the
 government which uses the threat of prison to get the loot.


 On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Weinzierl, Richard A 
 weinz...@illinois.edu wrote:

 At the risk of being just another university person weighing in on
 this, I agree with David's points.

 Jimmy Buffet said it well ... The gods' honest truth is, it's not that
 simple ... and that applies when it comes to free market economics and
 lots of other things. Governments, laws, and policies that consider the
 public good and the needs of those at the lower end of the socioeconomic
 scale are essential.  Our national policies are fraught with political
 motivations and a variety of other dishonesties that taint the real issues,
 but it is an oversimplification to expect that all would be fine if we
 abandoned minimum wage laws and cancelled unemployment benefits.

 And I admit that this is my personal view and not a research finding from
 my day job as an entomologist.

 Rick Weinzierl

 Professor and Extension Entomologist
 IL SARE PDP Coordinator
 Department of Crop Sciences, University of Illinois
 S-334 Turner Hall, 1102 S. Goodwin Avenue
 Urbana, IL 61801
 217-244-2126


 -Original Message-
 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David A. Rosenberger
 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:31 PM
 To: Apple-crop discussion list
  Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

  So far as I know, there is no political quid pro quo for decisions on
 what products can be imported into the US or exported to other countries,
 and scientific concerns about importation of pests are given serious
 consideration.  Nevertheless, Bill's suggestion about trading apples for
 flip-flops hints at some factors that may

Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

There is a lot of labor involved with the production of apples. For US
growers to be competitive, this implies that the price of labor will have
to fall here in the US or the cost of labor in China will need to rise.
(not likely) Another factor is the cost of fumigation.(?) Shipping is not a
real factor as they will ship directly to the West Coast for less than 5
cents per pound. I Owned a pottery back in the 80's, and when China
starting shipping to the US, the wholesale prices of their pottery was
about what I had to pay for the raw ingredients. It was truly shocking.
China is the largest grower of apples, outproducing the US by 9 fold. Also,
they are great farmers and the apple is a native tree for them. This is big
trouble for the US grower.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 8:41 AM, Fleming, William w...@montana.edu wrote:

 To me it just seems strange that we would allow importing apples from any
 country when we depend on exports ourselves to market the excess amount of
 fruit we produce.
 Maybe I'm just looking at it with too much common sense.
 Then again many times in trade agreements allowing an import of a product
 is traded in exchange for export of another. Who knows, we might be trading
 apples for flip-flops.
 Doesn't benefit the apple grower but may benefit an entirely different
 industry, and a politician's campaign contributors.

 Bill Fleming
 Montana State University
 Western Ag Research Center
 580 Quast Lane
 Corvallis, MT 59828

 -Original Message-
 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Mike Arvay
 Sent: Friday, August 15, 2014 8:26 AM
 To: Apple-crop discussion list
 Subject: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

 I'm curious on what the group thinks about this proposed amendment to the
 U.S. Fruit and Vegetable Regulation which will allow the import of apples
 into the U.S. from China.

 I don't want this to become a All things from China are bad. thread.
 But I can see both negative and positive possibilities on allowing this.
 They do recommend additional measures and actions other than the standard
 Port of Entry Inspection.


 http://www.regulations.gov/?utm_source=hs_emailutm_medium=emailutm_content=13804591_hsenc=p2ANqtz--B9po2Wh9EOEarH4oSyBng8hr9QeyW3LJQbTqn5DyDzYxmuMr2ciJZaLS1t7JjLaavRgsui8ZQ9El8DY6ATo7HsWEkbg_hsmi=13804591#!documentDetail;D=APHIS-2014-0003-0001

 Thanks.

 Mike Arvay
 Small Grower in Central Indiana.
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Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?

[Hugh Thomas]

The only Western country without a minimum wage is Switzerland. The
unemployment rate there is 3%. A huge problem here in the US is that we pay
people not to work (unemployment checks) and have a minimum wage. If the
growers in China were forced to pay our wage rates, then there would be
little problems with competition from them. However, this will never
happen.

For the US: 1. Get rid of minimum wage laws. 2. Reform the tort laws where
law suits are at a minimum, and the loser must pay all court costs and
attorney's fees. (Can you imagine suing your employer in China?) 3.
Terminate all unemployment payments. In just a few weeks, a grower could
hire workers dirt cheap. The market would then self correct. Otherwise, the
restrictive regulations here in the US will put growers out of business.
The problem is not China's cheap products, but the Federal and states
government's expensive regulations. This is a no-brainer.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
wrote:

 Well said Peter.  Yet enforcement of practices requires transparency,
 regulatory monitoring and political will that are all lacking with respect
 to the US’ premier competitor for prominence on the world stage as well as
 our second largest creditor (second only to the Federal Reserve Bank I
 think?).



 A plus: Chinese apples in the US market will result in a net increased
 demand for my U-Pick apples.



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 Gorham ME

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Peter J. Jentsch
 *Sent:* Friday, August 15, 2014 12:53 PM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Apples From China?



 China is the world’s largest consumer of fruits and vegetables, with a
 growing appetite for high-quality produce. China is also an expanding
 import market (mostly fresh fruits and, to a lesser extent, processed
 products). The value of China’s produce imports increased sevenfold between
 1992 and 2001, making it one of the world’s fastest growing import markets.
 (Global Trade Patterns in Fruits and Vegetables Economic Research
 Service/USDA).

 Yet China is producing almost half of world total apple production,
 increasing from 33,263,000; 35,985,000 and 37,000,000 metric tonnes from
 2010, 2011 and 2012 respectively while increasing world exports by 10%
 between 2000 to 2006. (Source: World Markets and Trade, US Department of
 Agriculture, Foreign Agricultural Service, May 2007). However, 10%; volume
 in terms of of world export is only 3% of their China's total production!!!

 The US has been increasing their shipments of high volume fresh apple to
 China. We will likely continue increase of apple exports until China has
 ramped up their volume and quality of production. Its been my understanding
 that even the Chinese people prefer US apple due to food safety concerns.

 Western US apple trade to China and world markets may be well for Eastern
 growers as it will likely reduce the shipments of Washington State apples
 to eastern markets and increase supply for locally grown fruit?

 I would favor increased tree fruit trade with China under competitive
 trade conditions based on standardized production practices. As it now
 stands, the regulations do not require the use of production practice
 guidelines to the standards which U.S growers need to abide, creating a
 competitive disadvantage for the US tree fruit producer. Pest management
 practices, worker protection standards and child labor laws shouldnbsp; be
 instituted within the guidelines of production practices, certified by US
 inspection of farms and facilities, just as we have here in the US. Its
 likely that MRL standards will need to be assessed and met, yet there's no
 mention of MRL's in the regulation. The emphasis in the bill on
 phytosanitation for oriental fruit moth is outdated and concerns for newer
 invasive species should receive a hard review (too late for BMSB and SWD
 invasion over the pst 15 years, having caused millions of $$ in production
 and research loss).



 That said, China has not been known for their recent history of protecting
 human rights, product quality or safety standards and should be pressured
 into compliance by world markets to 'come clean'.



 Peter



 The best way out is always through - Robert Frost”

 Peter J. Jentsch
 Hudson Valley Laboratory Superintendent
 Senior Extension Associate - Entomology
 Department of Entomology, Cornell University
 Hudson Valley Research Lab
 P.O. Box 727, 3357 Rt. 9W
 Highland, NY 12528

 Office: 845-691-7151
 Cell: 845-417-7465
 FAX: 845-691-2719

 E-mail: p...@cornell.edu
 http://blogs.cornell.edu/jentsch/
 --

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net 
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net on behalf of Ginda Fisher 
 l...@ginda.us
 *Sent:* Friday, August 15, 2014 10:58 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list; Mike Arvay
 *Subject:* 

Re: [apple-crop] Narrow Tall Spindle Layout

[Hugh Thomas]

I have only two years experience with this, but I'll give my opinion. A lot
depends on your rootstock. A dwarf rootstock such as Bud 9 seems to do well
at 11 ft. spacing on the rows. I have seen 9 ft. Bud 9 that hampered light
penetration. I have Bud 9 trees planted 30 inches x 12 feet and I believe
this is a good choice, but my tractor is 70 wide, would have gone to 11 ft
if I had a smaller tractor. I assume your location gets cold, ( -30 ?) so a
cold hardly rootstock would be good, say a G11 or Bud 9. Bud 9 can get to
10 feet, from what I have seen.


On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Matt Pellerin m...@treworgyorchards.com
wrote:

 I am a grower in central Maine that operates a pick-your-own orchard.  I
 will be planting a tall spindle orchard next year.  I would like to plant
 the rows as narrow as possible in combination with shorter trees so the
 customers can reach more of the fruit.  My orchard tractor is 54 wide.
  How narrow can I plant my tall spindle orchard with this equipment?  Also,
 what would be the appropriate tree height at the narrow row spacing?

 Thanks,
 --
 Matthew Pellerin
 Agricultural Manager
 Treworgy Family Orchards
 3876 Union St
 Levant, ME 04456
 www.treworgyorchards.com
 207-884-8354

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Re: [apple-crop] Deer, Fireblight, Liquid Fence

[Hugh Thomas]

I've tried many products and most of the ones mentioned in this thread.
Liquid Fence = Ranch Dressing. Dried Blood is deer code for Merlot. Here in
Montana, if a deer is hungry, he will eat anything. I finally put in an
eight foot high tensile fence.


On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 7:59 AM, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:

  Lee, we use a product called Repells All by Bonide that lasts up to 2
 months and is made up of  Dried Blood ,  Putrescent whole egg solids,
 Garlic oil, Acetic Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Cloves, Fish oil, Onions, Meat
 meal, Seaweed, Vanillin, Vitamin E,  and Wintergreen oil.  It comes in a 6
 lb. bag as granules and is also available in liquid.  The granules are a
 bit less expensive and are rainfast within 6 hours.  A six pound bag costs
 about $30 and covers about 5,000 square feet.   We use it in our sugar cube
 melons to keep the raccoons off them and around our young trees to keep the
 deer off them.  One bag covers about 3 to 4 400' rows of trees.  I don't
 know if this would be less expensive for you, but the product really does
 work for us.

 Dennis Norton
 IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
 Royal Oak Farm Orchard
 15908 Hebron Rd.
 Harvard, IL 60033-9357
 Office (815) 648-4467
 Mobile (815) 228-2174
 Fax (609) 228-2174
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com

 - Original Message -
 *From:* lee elliott pippm...@yahoo.com
 *To:* apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 *Sent:* Monday, June 09, 2014 7:52 AM
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] Deer, Fireblight, Liquid Fence

 Deer browsing on young trees is spreading fireblight, I know this is true,
 a small fenced in area in my orchard has little to no fireblight while the
 rest is fire blight city, I am using Liquid Fence,on newly planted trees,
 its a product made from putrified egg whites, this stuff really works but
 has to be applied every 10 days or after major rain storms, problem is its
 is very expensive, a bottle that treats 4 gallons is $30 at the local farm
 store. I would like to know how to make some myself, does anyone know how
 to do this?? Lee Elliott, winchester, Illinois
 
 On Fri, 6/6/14, apple-crop-requ...@virtualorchard.net 
 apple-crop-requ...@virtualorchard.net wrote:

  Subject: apple-crop Digest, Vol 42, Issue 14
  To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Date: Friday, June 6, 2014, 11:00 AM

  Send apple-crop mailing list
  submissions to
   apple-crop@virtualorchard.net

  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
   http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
  to
   apple-crop-requ...@virtualorchard.net

  You can reach the person managing the list at
   apple-crop-ow...@virtualorchard.net

  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
  specific
  than Re: Contents of apple-crop digest...


  Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Sprayer Calibration Between
  Training Styles (Fleming, William)


  --

  Message: 1
  Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 09:17:17 -0600
  From: Fleming, William w...@exchange.montana.edu
  To: Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Sprayer Calibration Between
  Training Styles
  Message-ID:
   0ed0d5ff52b2b3469bc620dba56ed85c8963169...@excms.msu.montana.edu
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

  Nick, as long as you are getting sufficient coverage in both
  growing systems I would personally find it easier to mix up
  two different tanks with different quantities of material
  rather than mess with swapping nozzles.



  Bill Fleming

  Montana State University

  Western Ag Research Center

  Corvallis, MT 59828



  -Original Message-
  From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net
  [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
  On Behalf Of Nick Lucking
  Sent: Friday, June 06, 2014 12:54 AM
  To: apple-crop discussion list
  Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Sprayer Calibration Between
  Training Styles



  Thanks for the responses. So when you guys use the
  spray controllers do you try to maintain the same GPA across
  all blocks? Seems like if you don't have one (like me)
  and you mix a tank to apply across multiple training styles
  with varying row spacing the pesticide rate per acre would
  be out of whack between them.



  Here's my scenario. 1.5 acres is conventional free
  standing and 1.5 is tall spindle. When I did TRV
  calculations last season and checked the GPM of sprayer
  nozzles obviously with the difference in row spacing the
  rate was way higher for the tall spindle block. When I
  adjusted the gear speed so the GPA would match the free
  standing block, tractor speed was way too fast ~4 MPH.



  I suppose I could get another set of smaller nozzles for the
  tall spindle block to try to keep things even between
  blocks.



  Any further advise?



  Cheers,



  Nick Lucking

Re: [apple-crop] Bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Dennis,
Do you irrigate the Bud 9 trees?


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 11:25 AM, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:

  Interesting, Hal.  We planted Honeycrisp on Bud 9 back in 2004 and they
 are only about 6' to 8' even now..produce a good crop, but never grew
 as we expected.  In fact, we are planning on removing them in the next two
 years or so.  Replanted more in 2006 on M 26 and they have produced
 beautifully.  Spacing was based on previous tree rows...we had M7 planted
 in the same rows previously with 10 x 14 spacing.  Planted the M 26 with 4
 x 14 spacing and trained to tall spindle.  Best Honeycrisp producing trees
 we have.  No fire blight issues and do trunk sprays with Lorsban to keep
 the borers off them.  We are also doing some trial rows on NIC 29 with
 Zestar to see how they perform to tall spindle.

 I'm sure you have made sure the graft unions were above grade. but if your
 guys are like ours, we have to make a double effort to make sure those
 graft unions don't get buried along with the roots!  I'm sure you are aware
 that if the union does get below grade, the dwarfing effect of the
 rootstock is gone.

 Dennis Norton
 IPM Specialist/Certified Nurseryman
 Royal Oak Farm Orchard
 15908 Hebron Rd.
 Harvard, IL 60033-9357
 Office (815) 648-4467
 Mobile (815) 228-2174
 Fax (609) 228-2174
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.blogspot.com

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Hal Wentzel appl...@gmail.com
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 *Sent:* Sunday, June 01, 2014 7:22 AM
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Bud 118

 I planted Honeycrisp on what I thought was Bud 9 on 4x15.  I have a strong
 suspicion that they were on Bud 118, but I can't verify that.  I've had a
 heck of time with their vigor.  It took them about 6 years to calm down,
 and I've had to do some heavy pruning to contain their growth.


 On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 11:52 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Next spring, I'm thinking of planting Honeycrisp on Bud 118 with a 4x12
 spacing. Anyone with any ideas or critical remarks on this would be
 appreciated.

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 --
 Hal Wentzel
 Pleasant View Orchard
 W6050 Chapman Road
 Niagara, WI  54151
 715-927-2050

 --

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Re: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Keven, I meant to address my last email to you. I have silt loam, holds a
little more water a little longer than sandy loam, but the one 118 I have
here on our property is doing very well. What is your opinion on the sandy
loam angle, faster drainage?


On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:27 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 Allen,
 I have silt loam, holds a little more water a little longer, but the one
 118 I have here on our property is doing very well. What is your opinion on
 the sandy loam angle, faster drainage?


 On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:04 PM, David Kollas kol...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

 Allen Teach:

 The letter from Kevin Versnyder does not appear in my inbox, but in your
 included reference it makes me ask this question:
 Does someone have information that Geneva 202 influences fruit size, or
 produces bud-union failures?

 David Kollas
 Kollas Orchard, Connecticut


 On Jun 1, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Allen Teach - Sunrise Orchard 
 sunr...@mwt.net wrote:

  In late March 2009 I saw amazing block of Honeycrisp on B118 very close
 to Gebber's pack house in WA.  The rows were 8' apart but I do not remember
 the other spacing.  I would like to see the block now but at the time it
 was very impressive.
 
  Allen Teach
  Gays Mills, WI
 
  -Original Message- From: Kevin Versnyder
  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2014 8:35 PM
  To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
  Subject: [apple-crop] Honeycrisp on bud 118
 
  Hugh, I have some honeys on bud 118 at 4 ft apart and it's working
 well. I have sandy loam soil so that's the only reason it's working. Return
 bloom hasn't been spectacular so I really think more dwarfing stocks are
 the way to go or maybe simply blossom thinning would be the answer? This
 year I put them in on g202 so hopefully the smaller apple it produces will
 help with bitter pit. We did lose 51 trees to bud union failure before we
 even got them out of the box. It sounds like g41 offers the best return
 bloom similar to g30 which is the best I've seen.
 
  Kevin J. VerSnyder
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[apple-crop] Bud 118

[Hugh Thomas]

Next spring, I'm thinking of planting Honeycrisp on Bud 118 with a 4x12
spacing. Anyone with any ideas or critical remarks on this would be
appreciated.
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Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential

[Hugh Thomas]

Mosbah and everyone else,

In my experience with Honeycrisp on Bud 9, I had a few trees runt-out when
I put them on a irrigation schedule that let the soil become too dry. I am
new at all of this and let the soil get to the level of being moist (at 4”
depth)  but not wet between waterings. I used an Irrometer at 14 and
cycled the trees between 50 and 20. In all my 40+ years of growing, this
would be sound horticultural practice, but with Honeycrisp on Bud 9, this
doesn’t work well. I believe Honeycrisp on Bud 9 must be watered past the
existing roots, (to encourage deep roots) and then deeply watered again
well before any signs of stress. I talked to a top Honeycrisp grower in
Washington and he told me to “never let them get even slightly dry.” I
changed my watering schedule to apply 1.25” of irrigation every 5 days in
the summer, and the trees are doing well. My thoughts…


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 7:55 PM, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar 
parmarch_...@dataone.in wrote:

 I SHALL BE GRATEFUL IF ANY OF YOU COULD SEND ME THE ADDRESS OF THIS
 MAGAZINE HORTICULTURAL NEWS.

 THANKS IN ADVANCE.


 Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
 164/3 Jail Road
 Mandi HP 175001
 INDIA
 01905-222810; 094181-81323
 www.fruitipedia.com
 Blog: http://fruitipedia.blogspot.in/

 -Original Message- From: Kushad, Mosbah M
 Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:23 AM
 To: Apple-crop discussion list ; Jon Clements

 Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential

 Drought can be devastating, especially to honeycrisp on some rootstocks.
  I am not in my office to look up the data, but the graft union of
 Honeycrisp grafted to some of the Geneva rootstocks and Malling 26 Emla
 dried up and split suggesting that the union is not very strong.  The trees
 are about five years old trained to the tall spindle tied to four wires.
  The wires did little to prevent the snapping of the graft union.
 
 From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [apple-crop-bounces@
 virtualorchard.net] on behalf of Hugh Thomas [hughthoma...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 3:09 PM
 To: Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
 Subject: Re: [apple-crop] Apple Bloom and Crop Potential

 Nikki,
 I don't have any direct experience with drought on apples but I'm guessing
 the problems will be huge. I lived in California for over 20 years and 3
 irrigations in California during the summer is almost not enough for many
 drought tolerant trees. I will be very interested in knowing how it all
 works out for you. Best of luck.


 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.edu
 mailto:jon.cleme...@umass.edu wrote:
 You forgot to mention how A-Maze-'N-Apples is doing?

 http://www.goodfruit.com/a-mazing-new-technology/


 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 2:31 PM, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.commailto:
 dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:
 After a devastating 2012 when most of the northern Illinois growers lost
 most of their crop as the result of the extremely warm March and early
 bloom that was destroyed by late frost, we had a bumper crop in 2013.  We
 lost 70% of our crop in 2012!  Despite thinning by hand, the trees over
 produced so much that we had the bumper crop even after thinning.  Since we
 irrigate, we have not been bothered much by drought situations, but the
 trees are still under tremendous stress due to all the weather extremes in
 the past two years.

 Anticipating thinner bloom this spring, we also have a much cooler spring.
 Green tip started around the 15th of April for us and we did not see pink
 until the first week of May.  Zestar, Liberty Snowsweet and Pristine are
 now bloom.  Some trees are very thin on bloom, and we still have others at
 tight cluster.  Right now we have varieties from tight cluster to pink to
 bloom, which we generally have never seen.  Normally we are at pink and
 bloom in all four orchards at the same time We are anticipating a very long
 bloom period since our daytime highs have been in the high 40's to low 50's
 since bloom began on May 10/11.  We have also received over 4 of rain
 since that time as well!

 The crop load is very sporadic in the trees that are now in bloom and we
 anticipated a light load, but never anticipated such a stretched out
 spring. We are still not sure what the overall crop load will be like until
 we get some warmer weather and see how much fruit sets.  We had lows of 35
 and 38 Thursday and Friday night and the bees have just begun to fly.  The
 predicted temperatures for the coming week should bring out the rest of
 bloom and the bees, with highs predicted in the mid 60's and lower 70's.
  We have had 273 DD since March 30 and only 274 since January 1.  We should
 have about 5% +/- codling moth flight, but none trapped so far.  We have
 only seen only 24 DD since May 12 and are anticipating a long bloom period.
  On the bright side, Zestar has a heavy crop load, just as it did last
 season and will have to be heavily thinned.  Pristine

Re: [apple-crop] Southwest Injury

[Hugh Thomas]

Greg, My gut tells me grafting tape will not help. I think an open wound
will heal better. I suppose the SW side thawed and quickly refroze.
Somewhere I have seen adhesive backed insulation that has a peel-off
coating. If this were white and had UV protection, strips a few inches wide
and a foot or two long could be stuck to the south -southwest side of trees
to prevent this from happening. As far as bridge grafting, this is beyond
me. Seems like a replant would be cheaper/faster, I don't know. I paint
newly planted trees with a cheap 2 gallon hand pump sprayer. 3 or 4 to 1
paint with water, and I can spray 1000 trees in 3-4 hours.  I walk the rows
on the S.E. side and then the S.W. side. I use the Ace Hardware sprayer on
sale for $9.99 (reg 12.99) and just toss the sprayer after the job is done.

Hugh Thomas
Stevensville, MT


On Sun, Mar 16, 2014 at 9:30 AM, kuffelcr...@kuffelcreek.com wrote:

 Greg;

 We get the same damage here in Southern California, but from sunburn, not
 Southwest Injury.  But the damage is the same, dead cambium layer and
 sunken bark.  Besides robbing vigor from the tree, here it also attracts
 borers who take advantage of the tree's inability to sap out the maggot,
 and exploit the edges of the injury.  The wounds will not heal; they may
 eventually be covered by cambium growing from either side, like a pruning
 stump is covered over.

 Bridge grafting is easier on shorter injuries like vole and rabbit damage;
 the problem with SWI is that the wounds are long and narrow. Cutting the
 tree off and letting a latent bud sprout may be a viable option depending
 on the damage, but you will have to weigh the loss of productivity against
 how long it would take if you just pruned the tree hard and let it try to
 heal the SWI.

 Painting trunks white, especially with an airless sprayer, seems way less
 trouble than any of this.

 Kevin Hauser
 Kuffel Creek Apple Nursery
 Riverside, California
 Nakifuma, Uganda, East Africa

  On Sun, 16 Mar 2014 10:42:00 -0400, Peck, Greg greg.p...@vt.edu
 wrote:
  Apple-Crop participants,
 
  Like everyone else in the Eastern half of the US, we've had a
 particularly
  cold and snowy winter in Virginia. Not surprisingly, I am starting to
 hear
  reports about Southwest injury to young trees. While there is a lot of
  information available on how to prevent southwest injury, I have not
 been
  able to find much information on how to deal with the trunks after the
  damage has been done. Typically, growers in Virginia have do not paint
  trunks with latex paint, but many will probably reconsider that decision
 in
  future years.
 
  Many trees are probably not going to make it, but I'm wondering if
 anyone
  has experience trying to save some of the less severely injured trees
 with
  bridge-grafts. How about wrapping the bark with grafting tape to try to
 get
  the wounds to heal? (I'm guessing that this will have a low success rate
  because the tissue has already dried out.) Depending upon how far into
 the
  rootstock the split extends and the age of the tree, we might also try
  cutting off the scion and hoping an advantageous bud breaks dormancy.
 
  Any other suggestions from those who have to deal with Southwest Injury
 on
  a more annual basis?
 
  Thanks,
  Greg
  
  Gregory Michael Peck, Ph.D.
  Assistant Professor of Horticulture
  Virginia Tech
  Alson H. Smith, Jr. Agricultural Research and Extension Center
  595 Laurel Grove Road
  Winchester, VA 22602 USA
  540/869-2560 ext 19
  greg.p...@vt.edumailto:greg.p...@vt.edu
  arec.vaes.vt.edu/alson-h-smith
  www.anr.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit/http://www.anr.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit/
 
 blogs.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit-horticulture
 http://blogs.ext.vt.edu/tree-fruit-horticulture
  www.facebook.com/VtechPomologyhttp://www.facebook.com/VtechPomology
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[apple-crop] Stink Bug News

[Hugh Thomas]

http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/02/26/stinkbugs-winter-cold-nation-insects-animals-science/
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Re: [apple-crop] Peach question

[Hugh Thomas]

see this: It is called callus tissue (undifferentiated cells).  It is not
a fungus, bacteria or other type of disease. It is naturally occurring, and
it is not harmful.  It can be safely eaten along with the rest of the
peach.
http://www.clemson.edu/extension/peach/faq/what_is_the_whitish_tissue_that_sometimes_appears_inside_a_peach_near_the_pit.html


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Mark Angermayer hangerma...@isp.comwrote:

 I had a guy ask a question yesterday for which I didn't have a good answer.

 He had purchased peaches from another orchard and complained the peaches
 had mold next to the pit.  What he described was a white substance next
 to the pit, not unusual in freestone peaches.  At one time I read an
 article which described in specifics what the white substance was, but I
 can't remember now.  I told him it probably wasn't mold, and that it was
 natural.  I'd like to have a more specific response for my own customers.
  Anyone know what the white spots are next to the pit, sometimes seen when
 breaking open a freestone peach?

 Mark Angermayer
 Tubby Fruits
 Bucyrus KS
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Re: [apple-crop] Tall spindle trellis

[Hugh Thomas]

Seems to me, that they could basically be as long as you want them to be. I
would calculate the fuel capacity of my tractors so that one doesn't run
out of fuel before getting back...


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Fleming, William
w...@exchange.montana.eduwrote:

 We had rows 2200 feet long between end anchors. 4 wires, 10' high with
 posts spaced at 42', 3' deep. End posts were a larger diameter, 4' deep at
 about a 45° angle.

 Wires and anchors were attached to a 4' long screw in steel anchor with 8
 plate. Ground was basically flat.

 No problems holding a bumper crop.



 *Bill Fleming*

 *Montana State University*

 *Western Ag Research Center*

 *580 Quast Lane*

 *Corvallis, MT 59828*



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Arthur Kelly
 *Sent:* Thursday, February 20, 2014 6:24 AM
 *To:* Apple-Crop
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] Tall spindle trellis



 What is the longest length of trellis for tall spindle apple planting that
 growers have experience with?



 --

 Art Kelly

 Kelly Orchards

 Acton, ME

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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
I know I'm rollin' the dice but as long as the trees stay alive I'm willing
to loose from time to time with weather


On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Fleming, William
w...@exchange.montana.eduwrote:

 I agree Hugh, this might be one of the best places to grow HC as long as
 we get by spring frosts, summer hail and single digit first fall frost.

 I see very little of the bitter pit that seems to plague HC growers
 elsewhere. The two times I've lost HC crops due to spring frost didn't seem
 to throw them into alternate bearing either.



 *Bill Fleming*

 *Montana State University*

 *Western Ag Research Center*

 *580 Quast Lane*

 *Corvallis, MT 59828*



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Thursday, January 30, 2014 4:40 PM

 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices



 Bill,

 On elevation - I was talking to a big name guy in apple research when I
 attended the hort show and Honeycrisp Experience in Washington recently.
 I asked him about our elevation here in Montana (3500') and the effect of
 temperature drops of 40-50 degrees every night in the summer. His response
 was, you're are gonna' grow the best Honeycrisp in the western U.S.



 On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:03 AM, David A. Rosenberger da...@cornell.edu
 wrote:

 We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we've
 added more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we
 are a bit too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently
 high quality with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great,
 but in many years the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best
 quality Honeycrisp I have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it
 kindly!).  Over-cropping HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality,
 but I think that harvesting prematurely is a close second.  In some years,
 Honeycrisp show quite a bit of preharvest drop in our region, perhaps
 because of  water stress created by high temperatures between late July and
 August.  In any case, many folks have difficulty delaying harvest to
 achieve optimum quality when apples worth a dollar each are dropping in
 large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY (Champlain Valley) can grow
 excellent HC and they initially reported that they did not have drop
 problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that region after an
 exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I'm not certain if
 anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, nighttime
 temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including
 foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either
 exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some
 general concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the
 acceptable ranges of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality
 (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.



 Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually I
 tired of buying crunch at the expense of the more complex flavors that
 exist in other cultivars. At this point, I'd compare Honeycrisp to a modest
 quality champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better
 cultivars have the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an
 expensive Cabernet.  Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested
 SnapDragon, SweeTango, and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All
 three of these cultivars have both crunch and complex flavors, especially
 at harvest when the aroma volatiles that provide much of the flavor
 complexity are at their best. For a variety of reasons,  I doubt that any
 of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of Honeycrisp in consumer
 consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to stake out totally new
 territory in the apple market because of its unique texture, and being
 first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper tissues as
 Kleenex.)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating quality of
 HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three favorites
 noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during storage.
 SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just not
 quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of
 SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the
 world-wide visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in
 stores will hopefully get a more consistent quality apple than has been the
 case with HC.   Finally, most consumers right now seem to want sweet,
 juicy, crunch and are less selective when it comes to the nuances of good
 apple flavors.  Thus, I would guess that those of us who have experienced
 top-quality fruit and can differentiate between exceptional and good
 fruit will always be a minority in the market place.



 Now

Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
On elevation - I was talking to a big name guy in apple research when I
attended the hort show and Honeycrisp Experience in Washington recently.
I asked him about our elevation here in Montana (3500') and the effect of
temperature drops of 40-50 degrees every night in the summer. His response
was, you're are gonna' grow the best Honeycrisp in the western U.S.


On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:03 AM, David A. Rosenberger da...@cornell.eduwrote:

  We first planted Honeycrisp trees at our research lab in 1995, and we've
 added more HC in various plantings over the years.  From my perspective, we
 are a bit too far south (90 miles north of Manhattan) to get consistently
 high quality with Honeycrisp.  Some years they color well and taste great,
 but in many years the quality is only fair (at least compared to the best
 quality Honeycrisp I have eaten), and color can be unimpressive (to put it
 kindly!).  Over-cropping HC is definitely one way to kill eating quality,
 but I think that harvesting prematurely is a close second.  In some years,
 Honeycrisp show quite a bit of preharvest drop in our region, perhaps
 because of  water stress created by high temperatures between late July and
 August.  In any case, many folks have difficulty delaying harvest to
 achieve optimum quality when apples worth a dollar each are dropping in
 large quantities.  Folks in northeastern NY (Champlain Valley) can grow
 excellent HC and they initially reported that they did not have drop
 problems. However, significant drop also occurred in that region after an
 exceptional late-July heat wave several years ago. I'm not certain if
 anyone has really done the definitive study on how daytime temps, nighttime
 temps, water stress, rootstocks, crop load, spray programs (including
 foliar nutrients), and maturity at harvest  interact to create either
 exceptionally good or exceptionally bad Honeycrisp.  We all have some
 general concepts from observations, but it would be nice to know the
 acceptable ranges of the multiple variables that impact fruit quality
 (i.e., good-tasting) fruit.

  Honeycrisp was my favorite apples for a number of years, but eventually
 I tired of buying crunch at the expense of the more complex flavors that
 exist in other cultivars. At this point, I'd compare Honeycrisp to a modest
 quality champagne (some folks always go for the bubbles) whereas better
 cultivars have the more complex flavor profiles one would expect in an
 expensive Cabernet.  Currently, my personal favorites are freshly harvested
 SnapDragon, SweeTango, and (perhaps a surprise here) Pixie Crunch.  All
 three of these cultivars have both crunch and complex flavors, especially
 at harvest when the aroma volatiles that provide much of the flavor
 complexity are at their best. For a variety of reasons,  I doubt that any
 of these cultivars will ever rise to the level of Honeycrisp in consumer
 consciousness.  First, HC was the first cultivar to stake out totally new
 territory in the apple market because of its unique texture, and being
 first has advantages. (Many folks still refer to paper tissues as
 Kleenex.)  Second, good HC hold up well in storage and eating quality of
 HC can be excellent after 6 months of storage whereas my three favorites
 noted above all tend to lose some of their flavor volatiles during storage.
 SnapDragon and SweeTango are still good apples out of storage, just not
 quite as good as they are at harvest.  The managed cultivar status of
 SweeTango and SnapDragon almost ensure that they will never gain the
 world-wide visibility that HC has, although those who can find them in
 stores will hopefully get a more consistent quality apple than has been the
 case with HC.   Finally, most consumers right now seem to want sweet,
 juicy, crunch and are less selective when it comes to the nuances of good
 apple flavors.  Thus, I would guess that those of us who have experienced
 top-quality fruit and can differentiate between exceptional and good
 fruit will always be a minority in the market place.

  Now, if someone can come up with an easy-to-grow cultivar that has both
 the HC crunch factor AND complex aroma volatiles that persist through 6 to
 10 months of CA storage, that will be the apple that will ultimately
 displace HC in the marketplace.

   

 Dave Rosenberger, Professor of Plant Pathology
  Cornell's Hudson Valley Lab, P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528
 Office:  845-691-7231Cell: 845-594-3060
 http://pppmb.cals.cornell.edu/people/dave-rosenberger
 


  On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:52 AM, Fleming, William w...@exchange.montana.edu
 wrote:

   Back when I grew apples in North Central Washington they always said
 you couldn't grow good apples down south in the Columbia Basin so hardly
 anyone did. Then someone came up with idea of overhead 

Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp prices

[Hugh Thomas]

I bet less than 15% of households have heard of Honeycrisp. When I go to
the store, I make it a point to ask customers in the produce section about
Honeycrisp. Most have never heard of it. If those who have, about 50% say
it is a very good apple or it is their favorite apple. One man told me that
it is the only apple he will buy, and buys it at any price.

At Costco here in Missoula, Mt, the produce stocker told me that he has to
re-stock HC more than any other variety. My view is that the high price of
HC is based on the high value people place on the taste. The market is
telling us that HC is the best tasting and most satisfying apple out there.
In the competitive marketplace, millions are voting daily with their
wallets, and you just can't argue with the outcome.

About two years ago, I got interested in growing apples, even though I
rarely eat one. I read about HC but never tasted one. I went to the store
and bought a couple, and the next day I went back and bought a dozen or so.
After I finished those, I bought a couple of more varieties, brought them
home and took a bite of a Mac, and then spit that into the garbage can, I
tried another variety (can't remember which one) and spit that out. The
difference to me, in my personal view, is that I eat HC or I don't eat
apples.

The problem is, poorly grown HC are just not good tasting apples. They need
a cold winter, heavy thinning to avoid over cropping, calcium sprays every
4-6 days and careful handling.


On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 2:59 PM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 In Hannaford (a major regional supermarket) today, all apples were 99
 cents per pound, except some smallish, mediocre-looking honeycrisp at $2.49
 per pound.  How long can an apple coast in the premium price range on
 little more than the name?



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 236 Sebago Lake Road

 Gorham ME 04038

 207.239.0442

 www.plowsharesmaine.com



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Re: [apple-crop] back up cameras for spray rig

[Hugh Thomas]

You guys must have plenty of dough. Another way is to employ a camera on a
remote controlled helicopter. This can be controlled by a smart phone. Some
of these have GPS and I assume can be programed with a route. SEE:
http://www.atlantahobby.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=18034idcategory=


On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 2:40 PM, maurice tougas
appleman.maur...@gmail.comwrote:

 Russell,
 I tried doing just what you suggest several years ago and found it not
 terribly useful. The clarity of the picture with all of the bouncing around
 proved to make the view not useful. I did not buy a top o the line unit (I
 am a new englander after all!) and so perhaps with improvements in
 technology and your willingness to shell out more $ than I was would prove
 more success. I would agree that you would need as large a screen as you
 could fit and that would be helpful. I'd be inclined to try Evan's idea
 first though.

 Mo Tougas


 On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 7:37 AM, russ...@holmbergorchards.com wrote:

 I'm looking for other members input/experience with the use of remote
 back-up type cameras for monitoring a sprayer from inside a cab.  I have
 seen youtube videos from europe with orchard rigs using cameras and a quick
 google search turned up several options designed for ag use that cost
 between $400 and $900.  My concerns with regard to orchard use are:

 1. Whats the minimum screen size required to get clarity?
 2. How well do they work at night?
 3. Does the screen create too much reflected light in the cab at night?

 If anyone can answer these questions or has anything to else to add, it
 would be appreciated.

 Russell Holmberg
 Holmberg Orchards
 Gales Ferry, CT
 www.holmbergorchards.com
 cell 860 575 2888

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 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844

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Re: [apple-crop] back up cameras for spray rig

[Hugh Thomas]

Russell,
I don't know about your specific questions, however, I was a commercial
photographer for 20 years. I can tell you that rear tractor lights pointing
towards the trees being sprayed will be very important. They will need to
adjusted to achieve a partial glare angle so that light bouncing off the
spray mist will be reflected back toward the camera. As far as reflected
light in the cab, it ought to be adjustable and I see no problem.  If the
monitor is not adjustable, and if it is too bright, then cover it with
Rosco neutral density filter gel available from BH photo for about $6 a
sheet. 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/163137-REG/Rosco_102302992124_E_Colour_299_1_2_Neutral.html
 Can be cut with scissors and duct taped over the screen.

The minimum screen size is determined by your viewing distance.  For
example, A 4 inch screen will work fine if it is 10 inches from your face,
a 12 inch screen will work 2-3 feet from your face, assuming you have good
vision. Before you buy the screen, locate the position you will mount it in
the cab, cut a piece of cardboard the size of the monitor and place it in
that location. If it looks big enough, it will probably work.

The main problem I see is spray mist on your camera lens. Once the lens
gets fogged with horticultural spray oil, or a any other spray, your camera
will be blind. I am very skeptical. My take on it...


On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:37 AM, russ...@holmbergorchards.com wrote:

 I'm looking for other members input/experience with the use of remote
 back-up type cameras for monitoring a sprayer from inside a cab.  I have
 seen youtube videos from europe with orchard rigs using cameras and a quick
 google search turned up several options designed for ag use that cost
 between $400 and $900.  My concerns with regard to orchard use are:

 1. Whats the minimum screen size required to get clarity?
 2. How well do they work at night?
 3. Does the screen create too much reflected light in the cab at night?

 If anyone can answer these questions or has anything to else to add, it
 would be appreciated.

 Russell Holmberg
 Holmberg Orchards
 Gales Ferry, CT
 www.holmbergorchards.com
 cell 860 575 2888

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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Bill,
I heard of this technique, crop and flop where the central leader bends
on its own. Can't see a problem with helping the process along with some
string,
Thanks for the ideas,
Hugh


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Fleming, William
w...@exchange.montana.eduwrote:

 Tree height in a high density orchard depends on your latitude, row width
 and orientation i.e. N-S or E-W.

 While a short tree might be ideal if you want to go ladderless at our
 latitude here in Montana 12 foot tall trees oriented N-S with a 14’ drive
 row take maximum advantage of the sun.

 I’ve seen an online calculator for this but don’t recall where. My bet is
 google knows though.

 To stop or slow down trees from growing taller I just head back to a
 weaker side branch, hopefully one that has fruited, or you can bend down
 the central leader to 45° or less with string once it gets to the desired
 height.

 I never cut the central leader till it reaches the desired height.



 *Bill Fleming*

 *Montana State University*

 *Western Ag Research Center*

 *580 Quast Lane*

 *Corvallis, MT 59828*



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 10:06 PM

 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Makes sense to me now.



 I've read that Bud 118 doesn't need support.   A question I've always had
 is, Why is it important to not cut the leader?  Seems like an idea
 situation to me would be to plant high density with root stocks that are
 self supporting and cut the top out every year to two to control the height
 of the trees.  Another thought is that the dwarf trees are really large
 trees, in my mind - 10+ feet.  Seems like a super dwarf that gets to about
 7 feet would be idea, planted a foot apart - wild thoughts...



 On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
 wrote:

 Hugh,



 What Art said, plus the idea that interstems should to provide a
 ultimately similar orchard result as with Tall Spindle or other high
 density plantings, with somewhat less cost per acre due to less support
 needed and fewer trees per acre; also, the hope is to achieve longer tree
 life than with straight dwarf rootstocks.



 I have a few sloped and curving fields that don’t lend themselves to
 post-and-wire, so I am looking for early bearing, high density alternatives.



 Steven Bibula



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 1:24 PM


 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Steven,

 Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?



 On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
 wrote:

 I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
 about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
 is, does anyone have experience with this.



 Steven Bibula



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Rich,

 I'm curious about your location and elevation.



 On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett reofar...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
 anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
 from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
 we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
 toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck



 On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly kelly...@metrocast.net wrote:



 I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
 sometime.



 Art Kelly

 Kelly Orchards

 Acton, Maine

 On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:



 I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
 also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
 Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
 any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
 thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
 maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
 with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
 longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
 U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 236 Sebago Lake Road

 Gorham ME 04038

 207.239.0442

 www.plowsharesmaine.com



 ___
 apple

Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks Rich.  Try selling your press on this cider forum:
cider-requ...@talisman.com


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Rich Everett reofar...@gmail.com wrote:

 Huge, we are at Lat 38, and nearly at sea level.   I think it is common
 for the tree to be a  tough one to grow throughout the US market compared
 to other apple trees.  There is no doubt it's a good fresh apple for eating
 and as I mentioned it was not a favorite for juice as compared to our 17
 other varieties…

 I'm selling a 22 rack and cloth press if anyone is interested?

 On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've read that V1 is resistant to fire blight.  See:
 http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/treefruit/outreach/files/PerformanceandAvailabilityoftheVinelandAppleRootstocks-Dec2006.pdf


 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Deborah I. Breth d...@cornell.eduwrote:

  Is V1 resistant or susceptible to fire blight?





 Deborah I. Breth

 Cornell Cooperative Extension - Lake Ontario Fruit Program

 Team Leader and IPM Specialist in Tree Fruit and Berries

 12690 Rt. 31

 Albion, NY   14411



 phone: 585.798.4265 x 36

 mobile:  585.747.6039

 fax:  585.798.5191



 email: d...@cornell.edu

 LOF website http://www.fruit.cornell.edu/lof



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Huffman, Leslie
 (OMAFRA)
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:02 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list; Jon Clements

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock



 I agree with Jon, V1 definitely has more vigour.



 Leslie

 [image: cid:image001.gif@01CDC8A7.C95AB0F0]
 Leslie Huffman
 519-738-1256
 leslie.huff...@ontario.ca 519-738-1256leslie.huff...@ontario.ca



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
 mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.netapple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
 *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* October-30-13 2:47 PM
 *To:* Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock



 Thanks Jon,

 I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
 about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
 you a report as the next few seasons go by.

 Hugh



 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.edu
 wrote:

 Hugh, see this for a start:



 http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U



 Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
 some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
 well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
 running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
 plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
 believe have come from Cameron Nursery.



 Jon



 On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1.
 Any input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to
 find so I'm considering V1.



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 --

 Jon Clements
 aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
 UMass Cold Spring Orchard
 393 Sabin St.
 Belchertown, MA  01007
 413-478-7219
 umassfruit.com


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 Rich Everett

 Everett Family Farm
 Fine Organics From Seed to Core
 reofar...@gmail.com




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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Steven,
Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
 about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
 is, does anyone have experience with this.



 Steven Bibula



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Rich,

 I'm curious about your location and elevation.



 On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett reofar...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
 anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
 from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
 we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
 toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck



 On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly kelly...@metrocast.net wrote:



 I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
 sometime.



 Art Kelly

 Kelly Orchards

 Acton, Maine

 On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:



 I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
 also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
 Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
 any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
 thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
 maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
 with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
 longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
 U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 236 Sebago Lake Road

 Gorham ME 04038

 207.239.0442

 www.plowsharesmaine.com



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 Everett Family Farm

 Fine Organics From Seed to Core

 reofar...@gmail.com








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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Makes sense to me now.

I've read that Bud 118 doesn't need support.   A question I've always had
is, Why is it important to not cut the leader?  Seems like an idea
situation to me would be to plant high density with root stocks that are
self supporting and cut the top out every year to two to control the height
of the trees.  Another thought is that the dwarf trees are really large
trees, in my mind - 10+ feet.  Seems like a super dwarf that gets to about
7 feet would be idea, planted a foot apart - wild thoughts...


On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 7:46 PM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 Hugh,



 What Art said, plus the idea that interstems should to provide a
 ultimately similar orchard result as with Tall Spindle or other high
 density plantings, with somewhat less cost per acre due to less support
 needed and fewer trees per acre; also, the hope is to achieve longer tree
 life than with straight dwarf rootstocks.



 I have a few sloped and curving fields that don’t lend themselves to
 post-and-wire, so I am looking for early bearing, high density alternatives.



 Steven Bibula



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 1:24 PM

 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Steven,

 Sorry for my ignorance, but why use interstems?



 On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com
 wrote:

 I am sorry for not being clearer in my initial post.  My main question is
 about Honeycrisp on various interstems managed with renewal pruning.  That
 is, does anyone have experience with this.



 Steven Bibula



 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Friday, November 22, 2013 12:52 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management



 Rich,

 I'm curious about your location and elevation.



 On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett reofar...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
 anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
 from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
 we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
 toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck



 On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly kelly...@metrocast.net wrote:



 I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
 sometime.



 Art Kelly

 Kelly Orchards

 Acton, Maine

 On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:



 I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
 also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
 Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
 any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
 thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
 maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
 with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
 longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
 U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.



 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 236 Sebago Lake Road

 Gorham ME 04038

 207.239.0442

 www.plowsharesmaine.com



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 Everett Family Farm

 Fine Organics From Seed to Core

 reofar...@gmail.com








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Re: [apple-crop] honeycrisp management

[Hugh Thomas]

Rich,
I'm curious about your location and elevation.


On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Rich Everett reofar...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a couple acres of  honey crisp on different root stock and I'd tell
 anyone that the tree is difficult to grow, susceptible to many diseases
 from powdery mildew to pith and much more.  The apple taste great fresh,
 we've juiced with the taste not very desirable for juice.  Again, the
 toughest apple tree for us to grow and we have 15 varieties.  Good luck

 On Nov 21, 2013, at 12:09 PM, Jill Kelly kelly...@metrocast.net wrote:

 I've got Honeycrisp on M26 at 5X15 Steve.  The 5 looks pretty good but the
 15 probably could had been 13.  Your welcome to come down to have a look
 sometime.

 Art Kelly
 Kelly Orchards
 Acton, Maine
 On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:31 AM, Steven Bibula wrote:

 I plan to trial Honeycrisp on B.9/B.118, B.9/MM.111 and G.11/MM.111.  I
 also plan to use renewal pruning, with no permanent limbs.  Considering Jon
 Clements' recommendation for Honeycrisp on B.9 at 2 feet apart in the row,
 any thoughts about spacing for these other combinations, or cautions?  My
 thinking: If Honeycrisp on B.9 means waiting to crop until the third leaf,
 maybe it is better to not rely heavily on Tall Spindle, but instead also go
 with fewer trees on interstems (cheaper per acre) that will presumably last
 longer, need less expensive support and still be trained to a compact,
 U-Pick friendly fruiting wall.

 Steven Bibula
 Plowshares Community Farm
 236 Sebago Lake Road
 Gorham ME 04038
 207.239.0442
 www.plowsharesmaine.com

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 Everett Family Farm
 Fine Organics From Seed to Core
 reofar...@gmail.com




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Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

I've read that V1 is resistant to fire blight.  See:
http://www.plant.uoguelph.ca/treefruit/outreach/files/PerformanceandAvailabilityoftheVinelandAppleRootstocks-Dec2006.pdf


On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Deborah I. Breth d...@cornell.edu wrote:

  Is V1 resistant or susceptible to fire blight?

 ** **

 ** **

 Deborah I. Breth

 Cornell Cooperative Extension - Lake Ontario Fruit Program

 Team Leader and IPM Specialist in Tree Fruit and Berries

 12690 Rt. 31

 Albion, NY   14411

 ** **

 phone: 585.798.4265 x 36

 mobile:  585.747.6039

 fax:  585.798.5191

 ** **

 email: d...@cornell.edu

 LOF website http://www.fruit.cornell.edu/lof

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Huffman, Leslie
 (OMAFRA)
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:02 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list; Jon Clements

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

  ** **

 I agree with Jon, V1 definitely has more vigour. 

 ** **

 Leslie 

 [image: cid:image001.gif@01CDC8A7.C95AB0F0]
 Leslie Huffman
 519-738-1256
 leslie.huff...@ontario.ca 519-738-1256leslie.huff...@ontario.ca   

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
 mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.netapple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
 *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* October-30-13 2:47 PM
 *To:* Jon Clements; Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

 ** **

 Thanks Jon,

 I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
 about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
 you a report as the next few seasons go by. 

 Hugh

 ** **

 On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.edu
 wrote:

 Hugh, see this for a start:

 ** **

 http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U
 

 ** **

 Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
 some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
 well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
 running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
 plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
 believe have come from Cameron Nursery.

 ** **

 Jon

 ** **

 On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1. Any
 input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to find
 so I'm considering V1.

 ** **

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 ** **

 -- 

 Jon Clements
 aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
 UMass Cold Spring Orchard
 393 Sabin St.
 Belchertown, MA  01007
 413-478-7219
 umassfruit.com


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Re: [apple-crop] Vineland 1 rootstock

[Hugh Thomas]

Thanks Jon,
I did order some V1 trees from Cameron yesterday and I'm glad you told me
about the spacing, as I was heading for 4 feet.   I''ll plant 5x12 and give
you a report as the next few seasons go by.
Hugh


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.eduwrote:

 Hugh, see this for a start:

 http://www.extension.org/pages/60856/apple-rootstock-info:-v1#.UnFOtJRga9U

 Several growers here in Massachusetts have planted Honeycrisp (and maybe
 some other varieties?) on V.1 in recent years. The trees have done very
 well, however, they are larger than B.9 and M.9. Planting 3-4 feet apart is
 running into some crowding issues. They have been precocious, but I would
 plant them 5-6 ft. apart using a vertical axis type training. Trees I
 believe have come from Cameron Nursery.

 Jon


 On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.comwrote:

 In my search for a cold tolerant rootstock, I ran across Vineland 1. Any
 input on this rootstock from anyone?  B9 Honeycrisp trees are hard to find
 so I'm considering V1.

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 --
 Jon Clements
 aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
 UMass Cold Spring Orchard
 393 Sabin St.
 Belchertown, MA  01007
 413-478-7219
 umassfruit.com

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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

The successful grower I met in Washington irrigates Bud 9 every 5 days.
 This is under-tree sprinkler irrigation. I do the same and water 1 - 1.5
with each irrigation every five days on average in the summer.  If the
weather is really hot, say 95F everyday, then I might shorten that to every
4 days. My soil is a silt/loam that has good drainage, high organic matter
and holds moisture well. In fact, I was amazed at how much water HC/B9
needs.  I believe if you are not irrigating Honeycrisp on Bud 9, you are in
trouble. Bud 9 seems to like wet feet, but at the same time the soil
needs air.  My philosophy is to water an inch plus, and then let that drain
down and give the trees a chance to have air for a couple of days, and then
do it again.  I can see stunting if the trees get dry, as the roots will
send a chemical signal to the upper part of the tree and tell it to stop
growing.  My sense is that Bud 9 has a hair trigger on sending that
signal. I just assumed that all orchards back East have irrigation, if not,
then I would bet a cheeseburger that this is the problem with runted out
Bud 9's.

If I had a stunted Bud 9 block, I would get a soil test and a tissue test
and POUR the nutrients on the block and NEVER let the trees dry out too
far.  I would crank up the NPK and minors at the expense of fruit quality
for a season and then back off the N for fruiting if the trees recover.  My
two cents...


On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Steven Bibula sbib...@maine.rr.com wrote:

 Especially for Jon Clements, but others as well:

 ** **

 Are your initial Honeycrisp/Bud 9 Tall Spindle trials, where you cropped
 starting in 2nd leaf, agreeing with Mike’s experience?  Looking at these
 trials subsequently, what happened to production?  I have a 1,000 tree
 Honeycrisp/Bud 9 Tall Spindle planting planned for 2015 and this discussion
 has taken a very interesting turn.

 ** **

 I noticed this year that with my 2nd leaf Snowsweet Tall Spindle on Bud
 9, the trees that were fully cropped hardly grew (but produced huge fruit);
 however, the trees that had no fruit (spotty pollination in southern Maine
 with nearly continuous rain during bloom) also grew very little.  Not one
 Snowsweet is even close to the top wire, located ~8.5’.   We did have four
 periods of drought-induced stress this year, and the Bud 9 varieties were
 clearly the most checked.  I will have Uniram drip with fertigation for all
 trees starting in 2014, and I anticipate that this will help ameliorate.**
 **

 ** **

 Steven Bibula

 Plowshares Community Farm

 236 Sebago Lake Road

 Gorham ME 04038

 207.239.0442

 www.plowsharesmaine.com

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Mike Fargione
 *Sent:* Friday, October 25, 2013 9:42 AM
 *To:* jon.cleme...@umass.edu; Apple-crop discussion list

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

 ** **

 Some growers in NY’s Hudson Valley prefer to plant Honeycrisp on B9
 because they feel these trees are less prone to biennial bearing and can be
 cropped more heavily each year compared with Honeycrisp on M9.  Our
 experience is that planting Honeycrisp/B9 at higher density and not
 cropping in years 1  2 can produce a very productive orchard.

 Mike

  

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [
 mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.netapple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net]
 *On Behalf Of *Jon Clements
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 6:26 PM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

  

 Simple solution -- pre-order and plant them 2 ft. X 10 ft. Will make you,
 and the nursery, happy...:-)

  

 Jon

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[apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
rootstock?
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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Vincent,
I planted a few hundred Honeycrisp on Bud 9 last spring and got an average
of 46 of leader growth this season.  Talking to a large grower in Yakima,
Washington last year, he informed me that Bud 9 was his best producer of
Honeycrisp, getting 60 + bins per acre.  I'm fairly new at this, and you
may know much more - please advise...


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Vincent Philion 
vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote:

 Are you really sure you want HoneyCrisp/B9 ?

 Sounds to me like a combination that will result in trees that won’t grow
 enough.

 Vincent Philion
 IRDA


 On 24oct., 2013, at 15:12, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks Gary.  If you have any Honeycrisp on Bud 9 please let me know.
  Looking for 1400 trees 1/2 inch or better if possible...

 Hugh Thomas

 406-214-8461  hughthoma...@gmail.com


 On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Gary Snyder g...@c-onursery.com wrote:

 Hugh:

 According to the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission M9-Nic29
 rootstock is under the category of (fair) for cold hardiness.

 Their rankings range Tolerant, Good and Fair.

 Gary Snyder

 C  O Nursery


 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:18 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness


 Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
 rootstock?

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 Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.
 Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)

 Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement
 Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment

 www.irda.qc.ca

 Centre de recherche
 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7

 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca

 Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350
 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275
 Skype: VENTURIA
 Télécopie: 450 653-1927

 Verger expérimental
 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est
 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6
 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375
 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608


 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
 Laboratoirehttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866q=irda+pfihl=frsll=45.557814,-73.360476sspn=8.87586,1.961403ie=UTF8ll=45.557814,-73.360476spn=0,0z=16
 Vergerhttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=11405391288824931904q=verger+irdahl=frsll=45.54961,-73.350585sspn=0.012504,0.018389ie=UTF8ll=45.54961,-73.350585spn=0,0z=16

 Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
 http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com


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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

Tim,
Any observations / knowledge / experience with Bud 9 during the cold snap
of 2010?


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Timothy J smit...@wsu.edu wrote:

  R: winter hardiness of Nic29 /M9:

 ** **

 The common problem in the inland Pacific Northwest isn’t often from
 classic, low temperature winter damage.  Our more common problems with the
 M9 clones comes from sudden “cold snaps” in the fall.  The trunks of
 younger trees on M9 seem slower to develop  tolerance for low temperatures
 in the fall.  The latest cold snap was in late November 2010, when regional
 temperatures stayed up in the 55-60F highs and 45F lows for the weeks
 before diving down to 8 to18F below zero in 2 days.  This did a lot of
 trunk damage in some orchards, and we are still seeing effects in some
 orchards.  The rootstocks weren’t injured at all, and many of them sent up
 a fringe of collar suckers in response to the trunk injury.  

 ** **

 One rootstock that sometimes will die from the cold the first few winters,
 with no cold damage to the scion, is  EMLA 106.  They become much hardier
 with age.  I believe I have misidentified winter damage as Phytophthora
 collar rot a few times in orchards  on 106.

 ** **

 Tim Smith

 WSU



 



 Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
 rootstock?  


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  ** **

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  ** **

 Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

 Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)

 ** **

 Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement

 Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment

 ** **

 www.irda.qc.ca

 ** **

 Centre de recherche

 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7

 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca

 Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350

 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275

 Skype: VENTURIA

 Télécopie: 450 653-1927 

 ** **

 Verger expérimental

 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est

 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6

 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375

 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608

 ** **


 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
 Laboratoirehttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866q=irda+pfihl=frsll=45.557814,-73.360476sspn=8.87586,1.961403ie=UTF8ll=45.557814,-73.360476spn=0,0z=16
 

 Vergerhttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=11405391288824931904q=verger+irdahl=frsll=45.54961,-73.350585sspn=0.012504,0.018389ie=UTF8ll=45.54961,-73.350585spn=0,0z=16
 

 ** **

 Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
 http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com

 ** **


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  ** **

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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

My first experiment with apple trees was the spring of 2012. I planted 500
trees, mostly on bud 9.  I didn't do a soil test before planting as the
USDA rates the soil here as being prime farm land with a Ph of 7. I
planted and used a NPK slow release (Osmocote).  The next year, before my
next planting of 1100 trees (mostly bud 9) I did a soil test and found I
was low on Boron,copper, Zinc and sulfates.  I have since paid very close
attention to the nutrient levels (tissue testing)  and keep the levels way
up. What I have found is that the new planting is nearly as big as the
first planting, and it looks like some of the Bud 9 trees from the first
year may runt out. My take away from this is that Bud 9 trees need high
levels of nutrients to push them along in the early years, and may never
recover if they lack plenty of food. I plant 3x12 and see no problem at all
with filling the space.  Fingers are crossed.


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Smith, Timothy J smit...@wsu.edu wrote:

  There were no complaints about Bud9 hardiness or trunk damage on trees
 with that rootstock.  It has a reputation as being hardy, but we can’t use
 it on “old” soils, because it is very susceptible to replant disease.  It
 runts out and eventually dies.It does better on deep soil in new
 orchard sites.  B9 grows root suckers more than most other apple
 rootstocks, but the suckers are a pretty red color, which adds to the joy
 of being in the orchard. 

 ** **

 Tim  

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 1:54 PM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

 ** **

 Tim,

 Any observations / knowledge / experience with Bud 9 during the cold snap
 of 2010?

 ** **

 On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Timothy J smit...@wsu.edu wrote:
 

  R: winter hardiness of Nic29 /M9:

  

 The common problem in the inland Pacific Northwest isn’t often from
 classic, low temperature winter damage.  Our more common problems with the
 M9 clones comes from sudden “cold snaps” in the fall.  The trunks of
 younger trees on M9 seem slower to develop  tolerance for low temperatures
 in the fall.  The latest cold snap was in late November 2010, when regional
 temperatures stayed up in the 55-60F highs and 45F lows for the weeks
 before diving down to 8 to18F below zero in 2 days.  This did a lot of
 trunk damage in some orchards, and we are still seeing effects in some
 orchards.  The rootstocks weren’t injured at all, and many of them sent up
 a fringe of collar suckers in response to the trunk injury.  

  

 One rootstock that sometimes will die from the cold the first few winters,
 with no cold damage to the scion, is  EMLA 106.  They become much hardier
 with age.  I believe I have misidentified winter damage as Phytophthora
 collar rot a few times in orchards  on 106.

  

 Tim Smith

 WSU

 ** **



 Does anyone have any experience with the winter hardiness of M9-Nic29
 rootstock?  


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 Vincent Philion, agr., M.Sc.

 Microbiologiste/Phytopathologiste (pomiculture)

  

 Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement

 Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment

  

 www.irda.qc.ca

  

 Centre de recherche

 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est
 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 0G7

 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca

 Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350

 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275

 Skype: VENTURIA

 Télécopie: 450 653-1927 

  

 Verger expérimental

 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est

 Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec)  J3V 4P6

 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375

 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608

  


 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien:
 Laboratoirehttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=9609486867104665866q=irda+pfihl=frsll=45.557814,-73.360476sspn=8.87586,1.961403ie=UTF8ll=45.557814,-73.360476spn=0,0z=16
 

 Vergerhttp://maps.google.ca/maps/place?cid=11405391288824931904q=verger+irdahl=frsll=45.54961,-73.350585sspn=0.012504,0.018389ie=UTF8ll=45.54961,-73.350585spn=0,0z=16
 

  

 Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabriel:
 http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com

  


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Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

[Hugh Thomas]

I worked in Florida as a horticulturalist for ten years and in California
for twenty. I found that even though parts of Florida and parts of
California had the same climate zones, many things would not grow in both
areas.  For example, the plant, Croton, (Codiaeum variegatum) a common
house plant will grow like crazy outdoors in Miami, it will not grow at all
outdoors in San Diego. Some parts of San Diego have never had a freeze
(Miami has) but Croton will not grow outdoors there.  Italian cypress grows
like crazy in Southern California, but does poorly in Florida.  Summer is
tomato time in California, but in Florida, tomatoes are a fall or early
spring crop.  I believe it is possible (gut feeling here) that Bud 9 does
best with cool summer nights. The Pacific Northwest has cool summer nights
whereas the East and midwest have warm summer nights. Here in Montana we
commonly have 90 degree highs in the summer with a 35-40 degree drop at
night.  I found this to be the answer to the growing differences between
Florida and California. Where many assume it is humidity - not so- as I
have seen cool nights in humid greenhouses in California have the same
limiting effect. My thoughts...


On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.eduwrote:

 Simple solution -- pre-order and plant them 2 ft. X 10 ft. Will make you,
 and the nursery, happy...:-)

 Jon


 On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:17 PM, Kushad, Mosbah M kus...@illinois.eduwrote:

  I have had little luck with Gala, Fuji, and Honeycrisp filling their
 spaces when grafted on Bud 9. Central Illinois has one of the richest soils
 in the country, but that does not seem to make a difference.  Bud 9 reminds
 me of Mark, it start great, but it slows down considerably after five plus
 years of growth.  Mosbah Kushad, University of Illinois

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Vincent Philion
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 3:53 PM
 *To:* Apple-Crop

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

  ** **

 No doubt that B9 is extremely winter hardy.

 ** **

 If you pamper those trees so they grow, it could be ok.

 ** **

 Our Honeycrisp/B9 never filled their space (12’ x 4’)

 ** **

 Others had good results with that combination =

 ** **


 http://www.hrt.msu.edu/assets/PagePDFs/ronald-perry/Rootstocks-for-Honeycrisp2.pdf
 

 ** **

 Vincent

 ** **

 On 24oct., 2013, at 16:39, Hugh Thomas hughthoma...@gmail.com wrote:***
 *



 

 My concerns are winter damage.  In the last 80 years here in Western
 Montana, temps have been recorded to -33F.  -20 F is almost guaranteed
 every year.  I see a problem in that snow cover all winter is not common.
  My first leaf Honeycrisp (planted in April) 1/2 inch trees cut back to
 about 34 inches are now 6-7 feet, and have outgrown M26 Suncrisp planted at
 the same time, same conditions.  I do keep the nutrients at high levels. Ph
 is 7.0 to 7.4 with a silt -loam soil at 3300 feet elevation.  If I thought
 Nic29 would take the weather here I would use those.  All of your comments
 are very helpful, please keep them coming,

 Hugh

 ** **

 On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Vincent Philion 
 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote:

 Hi! As a plant pathologist, I love B9 because it is tolerant to
 fireblight. We’ve grown nice and productive trees on B9. However, I agree
 with Mr. Norton = our experience with HoneyCrisp/B9 is not a good one.***
 *

 ** **

 Vincent

 ** **

 On 24oct., 2013, at 15:45, dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com 
 dmnor...@royaloakfarmorchard.com wrote:



 

 Hugh,  we have been growing Granny Smith, Zestar and Pristine here at
 Royal Oak Farm on M9 in far northern Illinois for about 4 years now and
 have had good results.  We also have Honeycrisp on Bud9 planted at the same
 time and they are half the size of the M9.  We have decided to not use Bud9
 again due to its slow growth pattern for our silty clay loam soil type.
 Hope this helps!

  

 Dennis Norton
 Royal Oak Farm Orchard
 15908 Hebron Rd.
 Harvard, IL 60033-9357
 Office (815) 648-4467
 Mobile (815) 228-2174
 Fax (609) 228-2174
 http://www.royaloakfarmorchard.com
 http://www.theorchardkeeper.blogspot.com

  - Original Message -

 *From:* Gary Snyder g...@c-onursery.com

 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net

 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 12:33 PM

 *Subject:* Re: [apple-crop] M9-Nic29 winter hardiness

 ** **

 Hugh:

 According to the Washington Tree Fruit Research Commission M9-Nic29
 rootstock is under the category of (fair) for cold hardiness.

 Their rankings range Tolerant, Good and Fair.

 Gary Snyder

 C  O Nursery

  

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:18 AM

Re: [apple-crop] Paraquat

[Hugh Thomas]

Tim,
Thanks much for the great information.  I'm on Bud 9 here and looks like I
have a good possibility for sucker control.


On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Smith, Timothy J smit...@wsu.edu wrote:

  Hi everyone,

 ** **

 Yes, I did some work on that recently.  See attached.

 ** **

 Sorry about the blank spaces, I removed two pictures  to make the file
 smaller.

 ** **

 Tim Smith

 WSU-Wenatchee, WA

 ** **

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Hugh Thomas
 *Sent:* Tuesday, October 08, 2013 9:53 AM
 *To:* Apple-crop discussion list
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] Paraquat

 ** **

 Anyone have any experience using paraquat for sucker control?

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Re: [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting

[Hugh Thomas]

I use 1 part interior latex paint with 3 parts water and a cheap Ace
Hardware hand 2 gallon sprayer (about $13, $9.99 on sale).  I spray the
southeast side first (walking quickly down the rows) and then the southwest
side next.  I sprayed 1100 trees (1/2 caliper) this way in 4-5 hours. Toss
the sprayer, not worth cleaning...


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Win Cowgill cowg...@njaes.rutgers.eduwrote:

 I know of no data on joint compound for lesser or greater peac borer
 control.
 Win

 Win Cowgill
 Editor Horticultural News
 Professor and Area Fruit Agent
 New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station
 Rutgers Cooperative Extension
 PO Box 2900
 314 State Route 12, Bldg. 2
 Flemington, NJ 08822-2900
 Office 908-788-1339
 Fax- 908-806-4735
 Email: cowg...@njaes.rutgers.edu
 www.horticulturalnews.org/
 www.virtualorchard.net/
 http://virtualorchard.net/njfruitfocus/index.html
 www.snyderfarm.rutgers.edu/investigators/cowgill.html
 www.appletesters.net



 On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Arthur Kelly kellyorcha...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 It seems like past discussions indicated that adding the joint compound
 helped repel borers.  What do you think?

 Art Kelly
 Kelly Orchards
 Acton, ME

 On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Kurt W. Alstede 
 k...@alstedefarms.comwrote:

  Gentlemen:

 ** **

 Please find below our top secret recipe.  We have never had any adverse
 effects from exterior paint…in fact we add the fungicide to help protect
 the tree against wounds and the thiram acts as a rodent repellent.  We use
 the cheapest white exterior paint that we can find and generally spray it
 on as a white wash with a handgun from the bottom twelve inches of the
 scaffold limbs to the ground.

 ** **

 Hope that this helps.

 ** **

 ** **

 PEACH  TREE PAINT  RECIPE.

 ** **

 1 GAL WHITE EXTERIOR LATEX PAINT

 2 GAL  WATER. ( 1 PART PAINT X 2 PARTS WATER )

 ½ POUND OF THIRAM PER GALLON OF WHITEWASH.

 2 TABLESPOONS OF  TOPSIN-M PER GALLON OF WHITEWASH.

 MIX WHITEWASH, AND ADD THIRAM AND TOPSIN-M. STIR THOROUGHLY.

 APPLY TO THE TREES WITH PAINT BRUSHES OR SPRAY GUN 12 TO 18 INCHES AFTER
 SCAFFOLDS WITH

 DAYTIME TEMPERATURES ABOVE 50 DEGREES F.

 ** **

 ** **

 *Kurt W. Alstede*

 General Manager,

 Alstede Farms, LLC

 P.O. Box 278

 84 County Route 513 S. (Old Rt. 24)

 Chester, New Jersey 07930

 United States of America

 ** **

 Tel:  908-879-7189

 Fax: 908-879-7815

 www.alstedefarms.com

 ** **

 ** **

 *From:* apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:
 apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] *On Behalf Of *Arthur Kelly
 *Sent:* Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:46 AM
 *To:* Apple-Crop
 *Subject:* [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting

 ** **

 Does anyone know the recipe for trunk painting including joint compound?*
 ***

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Re: [apple-crop] Stone fruit trunk painting

[Hugh Thomas]

Pity you guys back East with the humidity and night heat. We are mid 80's
-90F here in Western Montana and have 30-40 F temp drops at night with no
dew at the moment.  3500 ft elevation with the Rocky Mountain air.  I grew
up in Florida and do not miss the humid and hot nights.  I haven't needed
to spray a fungicide in two years.  The downside - possible freezes as late
as June!


On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Win Cowgill cowg...@njaes.rutgers.eduwrote:

 Always use Exterior White Latex-
 they are latex if you buy latex- do not use oil base- do not use interior
 latex
 The whitest white is best, thats why we use the Turf line paint- and
 becasue in quantiy its the lest expesive as a rule, and lowest acrylic
 content.


 Win Cowgill
 Editor Horticultural News
 Professor and Area Fruit Agent
 New Jersey Agricultural Experiment Station
 Rutgers Cooperative Extension
 PO Box 2900
 314 State Route 12, Bldg. 2
 Flemington, NJ 08822-2900
 Office 908-788-1339
 Fax- 908-806-4735
 Email: cowg...@njaes.rutgers.edu
 www.horticulturalnews.org/
 www.virtualorchard.net/
 http://virtualorchard.net/njfruitfocus/index.html
 www.snyderfarm.rutgers.edu/investigators/cowgill.html
 www.appletesters.net



 On Jul 14, 2013, at 10:40 AM, Alvin Warren alvinwarr...@gmail.com wrote:

 exterior paints are generally oil based rather than latex


 On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:29 AM, robjwal...@gmail.com wrote:

 and 1/3 joint compound.

 Also, make sure that the latex paint is interior paint not exterior
 paint.  Exterior paints have fungicides mixed into them which may be
 harmful to your trees.

 Bob Walter


 On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Kevin Hauser ke...@kuffelcreek.comwrote:

 1/3 water
 1/3 white latex paint


 On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 08:45:51 -0400, Arthur Kelly 
 kellyorcha...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Does anyone know the recipe for trunk painting including joint
 compound?


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Re: [apple-crop] Maine Voices: Backers of GMO labeling unthinkingly buy conspiracy-based arguments

[Hugh Thomas]

A lot of h*ypocondriacts* involved with this movement. They sense something
is wrong, so they blame food, the weather, chemicals, etc.  The real
problem is the lack of rational thinking.


On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.eduwrote:

 Well, Art, I would normally suggest you are all Mainiacs -- at least that
 is what this former Vermonter would call that rather large state east of
 New Hampshire (don't get me started on New Hampshire-ites, Live Free or
 Die, give me a break!) -- but at least one of you, the author Mike, and
 perhaps yourself, break the mold! Of course I should not self-espouse
 considering VT is the only New England state without a seacoast, and the
 apple-crop profanity filter would not let pass through the verbiage
 typically used for Mass*%^s by our good neighbors of the Great White
 North!

 Thanks for the link to the article, I think most of us here are on the
 same wavelength. There is a huge risk cup out there, and GMO's may be part
 of it, but I suspect a pretty minute part. Average lifespan, I assume,
 continues to lengthen. And in general, we don't go hungry. Let's worry
 about global warming :-) (Oh oh, is our current agricultural production and
 distribution system contributing to that? I am beginning to sound more like
 a Mainiac, Common Ground Fair here I come!)

 Regarding Arctic Apples, there may be one group more maniacal than those
 from Maine, and that is probably the Canadians. Well, particularly the Nova
 Scotians. They actually think they grow the best Honeycrisp and lobsters.
 Meh. But I got to give the folks from BC and OSF credit for coming up with
 a great trademark name befitting of Canada! Sorry Arctic Apples, I'll take
 Florida December through February…

 Go Bruins!

 Jon


 On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:33 PM, kellyorcha...@gmail.com wrote:

  [image: The Press Herald] http://www.pressherald.com
 * Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified.
This should get some comments going.

 Art Kelly
 Kelly Orchards
 Acton, ME

   Click the following to access the sent link:   
 Maine
 Voices: Backers of GMO labeling unthinkingly buy conspiracy-based 
 argumentshttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThisetMailToID=1606793229
 * View the most EMAILED for today from The Press
 Herald  [image: The Press Herald] 1. Maine garden earning
 national 
 praisehttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewTopTenItemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressherald.com%2Fnews%2F211548681.htmltitle=Maine+garden+earning+national+praisearticlePartnerID=561087
   [image:
 The Press Herald] 2. Anthem of Maine plans to hire 300 new 
 workershttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewTopTenItemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressherald.com%2Fnews%2F211559591.htmltitle=Anthem+of+Maine+plans+to+hire+300+new+workersarticlePartnerID=561087
   [image:
 The Press Herald] 3. Trek Across Maine bicyclist killed by
 tractor-trailerhttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewTopTenItemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressherald.com%2Fnews%2F211551191.htmltitle=Trek+Across+Maine+bicyclist+killed+by+tractor-trailerarticlePartnerID=561087
   [image:
 The Press Herald] 4. Plan hopes to curb Maine moose 
 collisionshttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewTopTenItemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressherald.com%2Fnews%2F211650551.htmltitle=Plan+hopes+to+curb+Maine+moose+collisionsarticlePartnerID=561087
   [image:
 The Press Herald] 5. Prosecuted Falmouth parent: We were targeted
 because we're 
 richhttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewTopTenItemurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pressherald.com%2Fnews%2F211509551.htmltitle=Prosecuted+Falmouth+parent%3A+We+were+targeted+because+we%27re+richarticlePartnerID=561087
 [image: SAVE THIS 
 link]http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromETpartnerID=582767etMailToID=1606793229
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 Get your EMAIL THIS Browser Button and use it to email
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 herehttp://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtonsfor
  more information.
  *This article can also be accessed if you copy and paste
 the entire address below into your web browser.

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 --
 Jon Clements
 aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
 UMass Cold Spring Orchard
 393 Sabin St.
 Belchertown, MA  01007
 413-478-7219
 umassfruit.com

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Re: [apple-crop] Apple variety TOGO

[Hugh Thomas]

Chiranjit,
Have a look at this:
http://www.starkbros.com/products/fruit-trees/apple-trees/cinnamon-spice-apple;jsessionid=F08D8AD63301D097ABB21FAA61AA9F54

On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Dr. Chiranjit Parmar 
parmarch_...@dataone.in wrote:

   Dear all,

 I am told that there is a variety of apple named TOGO which has a spicy
 cinnmon like flavour.

 Is it correct?

 Please tell me.

 Dr. Chiranjit Parmar
 www.fruitipedia.com

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Re: [apple-crop] Senescence

[Hugh Thomas]

I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me will post something for you, but
my gut feeling is that this timing could vary from variety to variety and
even from tree to tree.  I use NDemand 30 from Wilber Ellis.  Some of these
products might stain fruit and may have a waiting period.  Good luck and I
have had the same question myself...
http://ag.wilburellis.com/products/pages/NDemand30L30-0-0.aspx?Type=Foliar-appliedmain=Plant%20Nutritiontitle=NDemand
®%2030L%2030-0-0cat=ag

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Lee and Vivien Williamson 
leeandviv...@bigpond.com wrote:

 Hello all,

 ** **

 Can anybody tell me when senescence in apple trees actually starts and
 finishes?  I understand what senescence is and how it works, at least in
 laymen’s terms, but I’m interested from the perspective of applying foliar
 post harvest fertilisers.  When are the leaves at their most receptive in
 terms of absorbing the nutrients and despatching them to the roots for
 storage over the Winter months?  Should the PHF be applied immediately
 after harvest or is it more advantageous to wait until the leaves have
 started to change colour?  And if so, what shade should they be?  At what
 point do the leaves stop absorbing the nutrients because the cells are too
 ‘old’, in other words at what point am I wasting time and money?  And I
 imagine that it is better to apply the PHF in stages rather than in one
 large hit, for example, three applications of nitrogen at two percent
 rather than one at six percent?

 ** **

 Any advice and insights would be greatly appreciated.

 ** **

 Thank you all.

 ** **

 Lee Williamson

 Eden Gardens Orchard

 Western Australia

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