Re: [Aus-soaring] Music while flying?
Just out of interest. Are airline pilots allowed listening to music while flying? The (FMS) computer says 'no' But they're still allowed to eat airline food ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Music in General
If you've got music in the cockpit and you actually notice it, you aren't well enough focused. Wot, who said that? I had my music on, sorry...! ;-) P'haps that explains why there are so many bad drivers on the road with their music, iPods, fat tyres, fat tailpipes, fluffy dice or crystals hanging from the mirror, rear spoilers, tinted windows, cup-holders, power windows and ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] income protection not glider
This is the one for transport workers. Like most policies, it looks damn useless. The list of exclusions has been put together by the Fun Police. The usual exclusions apply it would seem. If you go mad, get sad or go bad - NO COVER If you engage in most sports - NO COVER If you have any pre-existing health issues - NO COVER With medicos hat on: The irony is that if you have a stress related illness, and seek professional help to reduce your overall risk of subsequent inability to function, you will not get any cover. It almost seems better not to disclose or not seek help, because you would not be labelled with a condition that can be used as an exclusion against you. This is crazy, because preventative health is about addressing problems before they become unmanageable. By declaring a health problem, even though you are taking steps to minimise your risk, usually lands you with an exclusion. e.g. Someone has depression, stops functioning properly, seeks help. Starts treatment, feels better, becomes aware of condition and how to manage it, becomes a productive member of society who is actually savvy about the importance of mental health, and whose subsequent risk of relapse (and cost to the health system, to employers and insurers) is reduced because their condition is being managed. Versus someone who has undiagnosed depression who will cost the health system and employers more. I know of a case of someone seeking income protection and their GP providing a medical assessment and the insurance was knocked back. No diagnosis or management plan was ever discussed with the patient, and hence the patient was unaware of any potential issue. The result for this person is that any subsequent application for insurance refers back to the covering agents refusal to insure. Likewise, any history of depression is unlikely to give you any TPD cover. So if you do ask your GP to provide information to an insurer, make sure you make time to be aware of what is being said before it gets sent off. Because once the insurer has your medical statement, you are not allowed to see it because it is confidential property of the insurer. Medicos hat off. Good luck to anyone who can find out any of the science behind calculating the risk used by insurers. Whenever I have had insurance knocked back because I fly gliders (an activity normally lumped with hang-gliding), I have tried to ask how the risk is determined to see if the decision is fair. The usual answer is We can't tell you because that is our commercial/intellectual property. Being a parent and spouse, I want to make sure that my family are covered in case of my injury or death. This point was brought home by the death of a friend from a brain tumour at age 35, he always said to me, Make sure you are insured for enough. Thanks for listening to my post Easter rant Safe flying, and good luck with the insurers Michael Texler P.S. I do have TPD cover and income protection that includes gliding and power flying. I thank my family's financial advisor for swinging those ones. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Good morning
Another dumpling moment! Brilliant sunny day here in Perth! From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Mc Donnell Sent: Friday, 6 May 2011 06:35 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Good morning Gotta move my daughter's address. Damn. - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell mailto:wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 7:57 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Good morning Good morning DDD. Freezing here 6 degrees DDD oxo ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] AAIB UK Foka finding
Thanks for providing that: There are many lessons in that report. Here is the AAIB report: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/may_2011/szd_24_4a_foka_4_ _g_dbzz.cfm http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/may_2011/szd_24_4a_foka_4 __g_dbzz.cfm Lucas James -- I was going to include a witty saying, But I couldn't think of one. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Backup instruments and human factors with electronic displays
Would be curious to know what the status of the standby pitots and statics were in the Air France flight (if such information is possible to ascertain from the data recorders). Assuming there was enough electricity to the standby unit, I guess the only useful standby instrument would've been the Artificial Horizon if the standby statics and pitots were malfunctioning (hence the backup altimeter and ASI would have also been in error). An alternate static source is not useful in a pressurised cockpit! Hopefully all will be revealed after the investigation. As an aside, interesting human factors exercise: I did my AFR recently in a Partenavia (P68C) with a SAGEM glass cockpit. First time I have flown with a glass cockpit, quite a culture shock. The standby instruments (Steam gauge ASI and Altimeter, electrically powered AH) were discretely at the top middle of the instrument panel. I had familiarised myself with the set-up on the ground in the week before and felt reasonably confident about dealing with it. The instructor told me that it was common for people to focus on the displays and not lookout, so I was prepared for that too. Nevertheless, early on in the flight, I found myself with head down in cockpit staring at the speed tapes and engine instruments with lookout suffering, much to my embarrassment. Certainly the novelty factor was very strong and should not be under estimated. From then on, I really had to focus the work cycle on keeping head out of cockpit with occasional glances at the pretty displays. The difficulty was that familiar information was presented in unfamiliar ways (for example in the steam gauge version the engine manifold pressure gauge is above the tachometer, whereas on the electronic PFD, the tachometer was the top gauge and the manifold pressure the bottom gauge. So I had to read in to tell me it was a manifold pressure gauge, and read RPM for the tacho). I also seemed to look at the standby instruments more often, because I was familiar with them and I could the required information at a glance. It made me think of the increasing instrumentation used in gliders and how that might distract pilots from looking out. I note that some pilots have a big sticker on the instrument panel that says LOOKOUT Certainly food for thought. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Make sure you don't have an open mike....
Even professional pilots can get caught short! http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/southwest-pilot-suspended-over-ugly-host ies-rant/story-e6frg12c-1226080618332 Reminds me of the time when the local CTAF frequency was jammed by an open mike during an AEF, you could here the pilot chatting away to the pax about the landmarks to be seen, with various ooo's and aaah's being heard from the passenger. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Good morning
Sir, Can you please walk in a strait line? How many fingers am I holding up? Can you say Theophilus' thistler? Then please remain seated and one of our helpful staff will assist you... ;-) From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Mc Donnell Sent: Friday, 24 June 2011 06:02 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Good morning Oh no! Again. Doh! - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell mailto:wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 7:55 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Good morning Good morning DDD Cloudy here. Your fault. DDD oxo ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Goofy's Glider (1940)
Superb, good to see not much has changed! -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Christopher Mc Donnell Sent: Sun 7/3/2011 6:43 AM To: Gliding mail list Subject: [Aus-soaring] Goofy's Glider (1940) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nWy75qKf-k winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Mixing with people you don't like..
The point about people being your friends is a good one.. They have to mix with people they don't like. LOL, metaphor for life really! Much like going to the footy... You might not like the people, but it's the activity that gives you a jolly! Sorry, back to normal back-biting... ;-) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Headline: Flight Lands Safely Was: Media (sigh)
Ah yes the media, it is a bit like: Flight Lands Safely In Perth after mid flight radio broadcast Breaking News: A Qantas flight from Sydney to Perth (QF 565) landed safely at 9:10 am today. The Boeing 767-300 made a text book landing after the 3 hour flight carrying 220 people. Apparently the pilot called air traffic controllers mid flight, from almost 10km altitude, declaring Ops normal. A Qantas spokesman said that this was not unusual and pilots were trained for such occurrences. The plane made an uneventful landing on arrival in Perth. No one was injured and all the passenger disembarked without incident. Passenger John Smith, when asked about how the crew handled the situation, said Well the Captain told us what the weather was going to be like in Perth and told us the local time. His voice was very calm. Disclaimer: the above is satire and a parody! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders behaving badly
More like people behaving badly ;-) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Fore - glider coming (includes onboard video)
This link below includes onboard video of the event: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/12263348/pilot-lands-plane-on-go lf-course/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Air Law
So long as it is in a CASA approved pilot's operating handbook (POH), seems to trump everything else...! Such as hand starting a Saratoga by oneself, relying upon the park brake to hold the a/c. I recall that Dr. Isabel won the court case because hand starting with park brake on was an approved procedure in the Saratoga POH. There was some suggestion that the park brake might have been faulty and it could not be proven that Dr. Isabel was negligent. See: (http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/VH-KBZ-ShreddedSeminole.htm) Can anyone else remember more detail of this case? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] CPL exams summarised (may contain humour...)
Human Factors - Don't fly when tired and emotional or sick. Remember to listen to others, they might have something important to say AGK- If it has rotors, it is not a plane. Generally planes are found more often on the ground than in the sky. Aerodynamics - Planes need wings to fly well, how it works can lead to arguments between engineers and mathematicians. Met - If it is wet it is raining usually. If it is darker than normal it is cloudy or night-time. Nav- Press the goto button on your favourite GPS. The 1 in 60 rule is how often you get your navigation calculations correct. Air Law- Refer to the regs, remember to have a moisture absorbent mat for guide dogs on board. Crocodiles must be confined to a strong box if carried as cargo. Flight Planning- Go to NAIPS, get NOTAMS, weather. Plan flight. Go to flying school to discover instructor sick, plane grounded or weather worse than forecast so no flying! Good luck with the CPL exams you guys, I hear that the exams really sharpen you up! From a humble PPL! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ramp Check on Tug at Beverley
Did the CASA official provide proof of his own identity? I think that you would be within your rights to at least record the name of the officer doing the ramp check and what transpired in case anything went pear shaped. In today's age, how would you know you're not dealing with someone who was bogus. winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Never assume - always check!!!
That one didn't wash, might work if you said it to a non-flying crowd, major plot holes even for a fable. What sort of bonehead student would start a plane without his instructor? Might be possible for an ab initio in a single engine at a flying school with very sloppy ops. If someone was undergoing twin engine training, their expected level of experience would not be party to such a happening anyway. More telling are the stories of gliders coming out of Form 2 or a de-rig/re-rig with controls not properly connected despite daily inspections and independent checks(now sits back and watches the fur fly...) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Never assume - always check!!!
It's called light humour. :) Yes, very lite indeed! 99% fat free! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Mars weather for the weekend of 10 - 11March 2012
Thermals on Mars: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-08/a-whirlwind-rises-from-the-surface -of-mars/3875938 The retrieve might be difficult, the launch even harder. The aircraft would be difficult to fly. The air density at the Martian 'sea level' is the same as FL800 (80,000' AMSL i.e. about 1% of sea level on Earth), so the indicated airspeed is about one tenth of true airspeed. Gravity is about one third of Earth's, so you only need to develop one third of the lift to get airborne, but that would require very high speed in the thin air (I think you need to go close to Mach 1 to get airborne and the stall is not much below Mach 1). Thermalling would be interesting because of wide radius turns (you see the air is so thin that the turning force is correspondingly small). But remember you would still have the inertial mass. Landing would be interesting too, airbrakes, spoilers and parachutes wouldn't work that well because they wouldn't develop enough drag. Your landing speed would be near Mach 1 too, so if you had a prang, you would tumble across the Martian landscape for a fair distance (because the lack of air resistance would slow you down). Your wheel brakes would be less effective because you would only have one third of the weight on the wheels. You may need a cable arrestor system! I have mucked around with flying on Mars in X-Plane (it also has the Mars elevation data), it is very tricky. You need something with a low wing loading and long slender wings (much like a glider!) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Riding around in a header
I remember when I did my Silver C distance in an ES59 Arrow (GNF) many moons ago. The outlanding paddock (a lovely stubble paddock, flat as a billiard table) was right next to town of Crystal Brook (galvanized iron fences were on one side of the paddock). After securing the aircraft, I walked across to the what I presumed was the owner's house to offer explanation and apology. He and his young kids were already halfway out across the paddock in their Ute to greet me. All were very curious, and he did not seem fussed by my outlanding and he and his kids were keen to look at the glider. So I went in the Ute, he and the kids had a look and sit in the glider and were quite amazed about what an ancient looking thing could actually do. I asked to use a phone to phone the retrieve crew and I was offered a cool drink. I also asked if I could help around the place. He said that was OK, but if I wanted to go for a ride in the header, so I ended up riding around in an air conditioned header for the rest of the afternoon with the farmer having a general yak. It was good to hear the farmer's side of the story while he went about his business. I have been lucky that all the outlandings I have had have been without any bad feelings from the land owner. Most seem quite interested in what we get up to. And I remember that I am an ambassador for the sport. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] overflying property ... (?Monarto International)
My local Council continues to be hot-to-trot favouring an international airport within its area. The selected location has its boundary fence 500metres from my strip. That's terrible. OMG, think of all the animals at Monarto Zoo that will be scared to death!!! I hope jet proofing the animals is part of the master plan, quick we need a Rhino whisperer. TPFIC Seriously: I hope they never shove Adelaide airport out there. BTW TPFIC = Tongue planted firmly in cheek ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Gliders versus Power, radio use, look out, it can be difficult, know the limitations
As both a glider pilot and a private light aircraft power pilot (PPL), the debate about alerted see and avoid, and radio use is all very well, but there are situations where even directed see and avoid can be difficult. Gliders (and some light aircraft) in cruising flight can be difficult to see, especially in overcast conditions. Even when you know where to look, the target can be very difficult to find, especially when they are approaching you front on and not thermalling. You just need to keep looking, and if unsure, get on the radio again. Reams about this has been written in the 'See and Avoid' documents. I think that alerted see and avoid is not a bad way to operate. Of course the debate will always rage about Gliders being on 122.7 MHz versus monitoring the area frequency, and about when the CTAF should be monitored, because alerted see and avoid will not work if you are on different radio frequencies. To counterbalance this though, most light aircraft nowadays have 2 VHF radios, so at least you can listening out on the area frequency and monitor 122.7 MHz or monitoring the CTAF within 10nm of the aerodrome. However, often the CTAF frequency becomes cluttered by all the users within a 50 to 100nm radius. This leads to problems too! I would agree that many glider pilots need to tighten up their radio procedures: broadcast the required calls and to minimise chatter. Also because glider pilots are sharing airspace with other users, we should be teaching how to monitor the radio (and the alerted see and avoid is a strong argument for monitoring the area frequency when outside the CTAF) and to avoid unnecessary use. Of course others will have differing opinions! Bring them on. Safe flying, lookout, and listen! Michael Texler See: Operations at Non-Towered aerodromes http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-1.pdf Principles of See and Avoid at Non-Towered aerodromes. http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/166-2.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders versus Power, radio use, look out, it can be difficult, know the limitations
One thing missing - other aircraft, such as Paragliders don't even use our radios. And they still fly with us too. Fair point. They use CB radios (I assume due to less restrictions on its use and that they are lightweight. But so is a hand held VHF). I will speak to my paragliding colleagues, unless anyone else on the list who also paraglides wants to comment. Also more often than not, paraglider canopies tend to be brightly coloured and slightly easier to spot (although I have seen some grey and white ones). You need to remember that there is someone hanging underneath them! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Gliders, Transponders and ATC
Transponders work OK if being interrogated by a secondary radar. No use outside of radar coverage. However, there are many more active devices appearing that do not rely upon being interrogated and broadcast (a la FLARM and ADS-B). I reckon watch this space ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders, Transponders and ATC
Not true, TCAS will trigger your transponder outside radar coverage. Thanks Mike. Is that sort of TCAS still a big boy's (heavy metal) toy or is it creeping into GA? When I have used GA a/c equip with a so-called 'TCAS', I was told it relied upon using signals from interrogated transponders. It gave only rudimentary information such as aircraft at, above or below, and no heading information. winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA gliding licence, class 2 medicals
On the face of it, it seems like a good idea. I watch with interest. Re requirements for a Class 2 medical, not onerous either and an opportunity/prompt to keep yourself healthy! There will also be a number of people flying currently who would not pass a Class 2 medical. If that is the case, they would not be able to get the CASA licence, unless they were able to have their medical problems fixed to the satisfaction of the CASA medical office. Being medically invalidated for your class 2 medical is not necessarily the end of the road. Yes, there are horror stories people losing their medical for what they feel are trivial reasons and having to fight tooth and nail to get their Class 2 back again. But there are many other stories of people having a health problem that does ground them temporarily being able to manage the health problem (in consultation with competent and sympathetic DAMEs and specialists) to the satisfaction of CASA so that they can fly again. Don't forget your right to a second opinion. As it stands with GFA, pilots can make a health declaration (or have their GP make a declaration). This relies upon trust in the individual to be honest with themselves (and their GP). How comfortable people feel about glider pilots flying with self declared fitness to fly can be another topic for discussion! Or to use the 'loved one' argument: Would you let a loved one, or family member fly as a passenger with someone who declares their own fitness to fly? From my own experience, my desire for flying has helped me maintain a healthy way of life, because I want to remain healthy enough to do a past-time I enjoy immensely still. Fly safe, fly healthy Michael Texler ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] self declared fitness, some observations
Some observations. of the 2000 sailplaners across Australia are just flying for fun for themselves. They risk themselves (having had that conversation no doubt with loved ones) often in a sailplane they own Fair enough if the activity doesn't hurt anyone else. I guess to paraphrase, If a tree falls in a forest, does anybody hear it? We using someone else's glider, or carrying other non-pilots, flying over a township etc. it would seem prudent (as it is a legal requirement) to be fit to fly So you're saying it's no different from driving, then? That's if one is prepared to accept the risk of a healthy driver suddenly becoming incapacitated by a de-novo (new onset) medical event and causing the death/injury of another road user. This argument is used by people to counter regular health checks for drivers (i.e. there will be always someone who slips through the net so why bother). Nevertheless health checks can hopefully identify and treat those with health problems to lessen the risk of them becoming incapacitated. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] self declared fitness
I wonder what statistical evidence there is for the added safety value of the Class 2 Medical. Let's also not forget that glider pilots are aging (like their aircraft), so statistically your chance of developing a medical health issue is increased just by virtue of being around longer. Diabetes, high blood pressure can be silently doing you damage. Many chronic medical problems can be better managed when they are diagnosed early, so aviation medicals aside, everyone should have a family GP and visit them once a year for a health check (even the young folk). Pee in a jar, get your blood pressure checked, have your blood glucose and lipids checked. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility?
Black is not a colour ;-) It is an absence of colour From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012 17:04 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility? Black. [daytime] ;] Tom From: Adam Woolley aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012 6:55 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility? G'day All, Curious to know, in your opinion (or backed up with evidence) what is the most visible colour seen looking from the ground to sky? SeeYou, WPP ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is there something to it?
It's referring to this: http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/mandl-absaugung-e.html Any comment from aeronautical engineering types? Have DG's results been independently verified? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] ABCD etc.
How do we know that the tail dolly wasn't put on to facilitate removal of the wreck? Let's wait until the report folks... From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Michael Scutter Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 15:24 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ABCD etc. the aircraft type was a IS-28B2 BRASOV GLIDER Michael Scutter, Education Training Consultant, Email: michael_scut...@yahoo.com.au Mobile: 0417822330 (Int +614178223300) skype://michaelscutter I don't say anything here that I would not say to your face. From: Christopher Mc Donnell wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: Gliding mail list aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, 19 June 2012 4:49 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] ABCD etc. http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Cause-sought-in-glider-c rash-that-killed-3-near-3643035.php ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story
Forwarded from Kim Taylor: Hi All, This morning on ABC radio AM programme a story regarding the regional airline Rex pushing for gliders to carry transponders. Rex had a near miss involving a glider and one of their air ambulances. Link to story : http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3538383.htm Regards, Kim T ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] CADO versus Hypobaric hypoxia
One paper (see below) concludes that Combined Altitude Depleted Oxygen (CADO) is just as effective a tool for hypoxia awareness training as hypobaric hypoxia. It could be said that an explosive decompression is not a usual scenario for glider pilots at altitude (unless you are in a pressurised cockpit for extreme altitude flights), hence a gradual 'physiological ascent' by turning down the oxygen ratio will simulate the insidious nature of hypoxia during an ascent more realistically. Decompression chambers have been associated with occurrences of the bends, I know of one person who had the bends following a chamber run. Any comment from AvMed types? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2010/0081/0009/a rt6 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] CADO versus Hypobaric hypoxia
But then again, there is this presentation that say there are differences between normobaric hypoxia (i.e breathing oxygen poor mixtures at sea level pressure), CADO (in a chamber at 10,000' altitude breathing an oxygen poor mixture) and hypobaric hypoxia ( HH i.e full chamber to 25,000'). It depends whether you want to know what you hypoxia symptoms (in normobaric and CADO) are versus the rapidity of onset in HH (to reinforce the urgency of the situation). Thinking back to my previous post, one cause for sudden hypoxia for glider pilots would be a sudden malfunction of the oxygen supply system or running out of O2! http://www.amma.asn.au/amma2011/downloads/Smith%20-%20Hypoxia.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ascencion Scattering
I hear their prices are going up Boom tish From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher McDonnell Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012 06:20 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Ascencion Scattering Only in the US of A http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-business/ci_21213913/boulder-company-offers-heavenward-scattering-ashes ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Priceless maintenance!
Next time you are doing the DI and find a minor defect http://www.perthnow.com.au/travel/news/alaska-airlines-plane-wing-note-n ot-appropriate/story-fn30173u-1226445659619 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Up there with the eagles - Kingaroy 1967
Well some things never change. We still wear beige... From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Brisbane Gliding Adventures Sent: Tuesday, 14 August 2012 20:56 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Up there with the eagles - Kingaroy 1967 http://www.glidingcaboolture.org.au/gq60/people_mag_08Feb67.htm Kevin Rodda Secretary GLIDING QUEENSLAND ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club accounting
Now you'll have someone asking what happened on 14th Feb 1966. Valentine's Day perhaps? ;-) Petr Svoboda, Czech ice hockey player was born ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Pee Tube
Nah, poor old tuggies can't pee because they never drink enough. Their pipe works get plugged up with kidney stones! http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/avmed/journal_urinary_calculi .pdf As a tuggie, you are more likely to crap your pants when the glider on tow does something silly. Remember, be kind to tuggies, they have much fewer options From a lapsed tuggie ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Instruments and beyond
And then you link it to your computer at home so you don't have to drive to the airfield because the DI/launch robot has placed your glider on the grid, with it's onboard camera and computer and fly the thing from home. If you have a mid air no-one gets hurt apart from those whom the bits fall on the ground. Hang on! wait up! why would you even need a glider? Have a virtual one. You could play Condor. No a/c req'd, no airfield req'd, no club m'ship req'd, no GFA req'd. You can still wear beige though and a floppy hat. Although I guess some-one would complain about how to handicap their computer system so they win all the time. Me, I'd rather go gliding... Warning, my tongue is planted firmly in my cheek for those with no sense of humour.! Once you have the electronics for the attitude instrumentation you also have most of an autopilot, you only need the servos to make one. With modern LiFePO4 batteries the electrical power isn't a problem. The Duckhawk already has electrically actuated flaps which means it is easy to organise *never* being in the wrong flap setting. So thermalling becomes a matter of pushing the leftor right button and the glider smoothly rolls into a co-ordinated left or right turn at 40 degrees of bank angle at the optimum lift coefficient for minimum sink. You will have a button to roll off the bank to straight flight and this could be used for centering. The ball would be in the middle the whole time so you'll need footrests as you won't have your feet on the pedals. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Something to make you laugh, Ozzie IFR waypoint fun, this is true!
This is funny, Airservices Australia have a sense of humour: http://makingtimeforflying.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/youll-come-flying-mat ilda-with-me.html Look in the Airservices Austrlia designated airspace book: http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dah/dah.pdf Section 21 - IFR Waypoints Lat Long WONSA -22 110 JOLLY -23 110 SWAGY -24 110 CAMBS -25 110 BUIYA -26 110 BYLLA -27 110 BONGS -28 110 UNDER -29 110 ACOOL -30 110 EBARR -31 110 TREES -32 110 The Yanks like a laugh too. There is this classic one from RNAV (GPS) Approach for RWY 16 Portsmouth Airport in New Hampshire USA (KPSM). Imagine entering this in the navigation computer! See: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1209/pdf/00678R16.PDF If you start at the initial approach fix (IAF) in the northwest: ITAWT To the intermediate fix (IF): ITAWA To the final approach fix (FAF): PUDYE Missed approach point: TTATT Missed approach holding point: IDEED ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Groan.Perceptions of gliding from the ground
If gliding is more interesting than photographing it, Here is my contribution, title Perceptions of gliding from the ground. A timeless study in three colours (if you include white as a colour). The glider is the white dot under the middle cloud. I think this picture captures how most (non) people see gliding. This picture is lucky because most days the gliders are too far away to see... Fly safe, have fun... attachment: GlidingPicture.GIF___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Metric versus imperial, you gotta learn to love it.... ; -)
In some parts of the world, metric units are used for altimetry, and metres are used on European altimeters, and many paragliders and hangies here in Oz use metres on their instruments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_level#Metric_flight_levels Although I believe there is a push by ICAO wrt RVSM that the whole world uses feet and flight levels. The type of units used, well, despite the confusion, my brain hasn't exploded yet: Altimeter = feet or flight levels Runway dimensions = Metres Vertical clearance from cloud = feet Horizontal clearance from cloud = Metres Visibility = Metres or kilometres Fuel Flow = Gallons per hour Fuel capacity = Litres Oil temperature =Degrees Fahrenheit Outside Air temp = Degrees Centigrade Manifold pressure =Inches of Mercury Tyre pressure = Pounds per square inch Distance of the airfield from the town when you drive in a car = Kilometres (i.e the airfield is 3 km SE of the town) Distance the town is from the airfield when inbound = Nautical miles (i.e. Inbound from the NW at 2nm) Duration of your flight = 1hour and 6 minutes VDO time = 1.1hours Area forecast winds = degrees true. Airfield forecast winds = degrees magnetic Important measures when rigging a twin seater glider: Distance required to move a wingtip forward or backwards = Just a smidge, any distance more is too much Distance required to lift a heavy wing = Just a smidge (really means more, i.e. until your hernia pops) The mass of a wing = They don't weigh much = They're bloody heavy Upright = Usually not truly vertical Have a great w/e flying everyone... ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Sky 1 Installation Update
I have have just installed something fantastic. It is called Sky(TM). It is applied to the entire outer surface of the canopy. Although it is solar powered it doesn't need batteries, or a link to a GPS unit or any extra holes drilled into your instrument panel. It's visibility in bright sunlight is really good and most studies have agreed that its presence augments the gliding experience. It is available in a range of colours and patterns. Please see this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky BTW: This is humour (sort of...) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Urinary crystals
when urinated upon turn everything into an easily manageable gel??? Gee whizz, I don't want to be turned into an easily manageable gel! They must be very powerful crystals if they can do that (i.e. turn everything into an easily manageable gel) ;-) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] wingwalkers
When I first saw your e-mail I thought you were talking about two of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingwalker They would be hard to find. I thought that glider wings would be too slippery and narrow! Season's greetings all... From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of grietje wansink Sent: Sunday, 6 January 2013 06:58 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] wingwalkers Dear All, Unfortunately, someone drove over two wing walkers yesterday. Does any one have a wing walker I can buy? The gliders are ASH31 and a Ventus 2cm. Thank you in advance, Grietje ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Engires fires, repent, repent, remove engine... ; -) (Warning, prepared by machines that might process humour)
Radical concept for preventing engines fires. Don't have an engine...! ;-) We fly gliders after all.. Tongue planted very firmly in cheek whilst running away to hide (again). The only time you have too much fuel is when you are on fire. PS. but seriously, very interesting read regarding the various ways fire extinguishing is managed. i.e. engine retracted fire is a different beast to engine deployed fire. What is the best fire extinguishing material. Flammability of composite structures, and the like. Arguments of salvagability versus survivability. Great read, keep it coming. M.T. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Help, my PDA caught fire.....!
A goodly number of GA fires are in fact cockpit fires. We've got lots of electronics and wiring in glider cockpits nowadays and fancy batteries. Too true. I wonder when that will start appearing in the accident reports. More likely battery fires though with the amount of hardware in cockpits nowadays. Then there are brake fires (towing a glider out to launch with the airbrakes out and brake on is a way to do that), canopies starting fires etc. It will end up an obscure activity indulged in by aging eccentrics, far from civilization and polite company. Oh wait ... RAOFLMAO. That's why I love it ;-) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist
Simple Question; When flying a glider, is it OK to taxy off the runway after landing to position the glider close to the rear of the launch grid? YES or NO or It depends.. (give a reason) Offlist replies preferred From latest MOSP Taxying after landing Sailplanes should make a straight approach and landing run parallel to the runway and must not taxy clear of the runway unless operationally required and only if no other aircraft can land alongside in the direction of taxi. Powered sailplanes may taxi under power providing it is safe to do so. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Taxying up to grid straw poll, day 1 results
No 4 Yes 1 (it depends upon not hitting anything if you lose control or your brakes fail!) Not a big sample size yet! Thanks for the replies. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, (offlist reply)
Why the straw poll? I had the audacity to question a fellow level 2 as to why he taxied a heavy club two seater (a DG1000 with 2 POB) to within 5-10m of the back of the launching grid (there were other gliders on the grid). I was told that since I didn't have anywhere near the vast years of experience he had, 1,00's of kms of X-country he did and I wasn't as regular flier as he was that I had no right to criticise him. I was the level 2 running the day. Just trying to see how prevalent taxying up behind the grid is. Great to hear from you! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist
It depends on the position of the grid on the airfield. To clarify. Grid is off the active strip to one side, so when taking off, the tow combination then tracks back onto the active strip and flies away. That is, there is a clear runway alongside the launch grid. The never taxi/always land straight crowd should re-think if they ever fly a comp with 30+ gliders on final behind them! NOT taxying off is unsafe in heavy traffic and may be a contributing factor in at least one fatal accident I know of. I am not referring to landing long past the grid and then taxying off to clear the runway. I have done that many times. i.e. down the runway, taxying away from the grid and not towards any fixed objects if the brakes decide to fail or that I have miscalculated energy management! Perhaps I should've asked, How many ways are there to skin a cat? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Electric replacement for quad bikes aroundairfields
I know of a gopher being used for this quite successfully. Cheap too second hand. Is that to get the pilot or the glider out to the launch pointinfo/aus-soaring? ;-) Beige flameproof suit and terry towelling hat on ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
Thanks everyone for the input regarding this topic, there has been some drift from the question I posed about landing and then taxying towards the grid (is this done for the sake of convenience?). I am not referring to landing long past the grid and then taxying off to clear the runway for traffic behind. I have done that many times to provide a clear runway for traffic behind me. i.e. down the runway, taxying away from the grid and off the runway at a shallow angle and not towards any fixed objects if the brakes decide to fail or that I have miscalculated energy management! Even so, Never assume that the glider in front of you will clear the runway for you (it is nice if they do). Sometimes something might happen to the a/c to prevent it getting of the strip in a hurry (i.e. burst tyre on landing, not enough crew to get a/c off strip quickly, a wheels up, collapsed u/c on landing etc.). Have enough energy available to overfly and land longer if possible, consider an off-field landing (if the only runway has been filled up with landing a/c) if it is safe to do so. If you have that luxury, you might elect to land on another runway at the airfield, but by aware of the other traffic. Have plan B and C up your sleeve. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals
Use the force?. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Tom Claffey's repeat posts are getting ridiculous...
Can Tom Claffey work out why the list is getting repeat postings please? From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey Sent: Thursday, 18 April 2013 04:29 To: aus-soaring Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Hangarage near Sydney Good Luck! I would suggest Wedderburn. Bankstown and Camden are ridiculous. Tom From: Mark Newton new...@atdot.dotat.org; To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net; Subject: [Aus-soaring] Hangarage near Sydney Sent: Tue, Apr 16, 2013 1:37:55 AM Not strictly gliding related, but certainly aviation related: I'm about to move to Sydney. I'll be bringing an RV-6 with me, and I'll have to find a hangar spot for it. It's a 20'6 span taildragger -- doesn't take up much space, can share a shed with another aircraft. Currently nestles under the wings of a Cessna and a Decathlon at Parafield. I don't much mind where it's kept, as long as it's a non-corrosive environment and it isn't too hard to get fuel. If anyone has any contacts, I'm all ears, my email address is up the top. Thanks, - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net javascript:return To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Correct usage of out of office assistant
Slight techie question. If I use the out of office assistant on Outlook, how can I prevent it from clogging up aus-soaring each time a message comes in, or even worse, it starts auto-replying to my out of office message? Is there on online guide to the correct etiquette/method regarding this matter Sorry to be slightly OT Offlist replies OK unless others are interested too. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Nice work, engine failure in Jabiru, well handled off field landing
Gliding related because a Jabiru became a glider in QLD. Calm instructor See: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-03/pilot-makes-emergency-landing-in-l ight-aircraft/4931182 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC Map wanted of heaviest sailplane over longestdistance
Hi All, Here is a map of a long final glide from ~35,000' in the world's heaviest sailplane over quite a long distance in Florida. It does a straight in approach after a height losing orbit to the right! I hope this helps ;-) attachment: 445729main_KSC237_close.gif___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC Map wanted of heaviestsailplane over longestdistance
Not exactly a sailplane either. The space shuttle is a glider though. (But anything with the thrust turned off is technically gliding, i.e. Gimli Glider wasn't called the Gimli Sailplane though. Perhaps the alliteration of the g sound rolls nicer off the tongue. But then why wasn't it called Sullenberger's Sailplane when he landed in the Hudson...) Ponders question, What is the difference between a sailplane and a glider? Could it be that a sailplane is defined by the intention for it being used for gliding flight from the beginning of the flight (I will take my sailplane out for a gliding flight), whereas any powered after can accidently or intentionally become a glider when the thrust is turned off (Oh poop, my engine(s) failed, I have become a glider). TPFIC ;-) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Names Glider versus Sailplane
Sullenberger's Sinker. It floated for a little bit... OK, I give up. What is TPFIC? TPFIC Tongue Planted Firmly In Cheek. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Methinks there is some false logic in that argument. A counter argument is that the aviation medical system has kept people out of the skies that shouldn't be flying due to medical reasons . (that is, the medicals are filtering out those who are unfit to fly and hence that the cause of incidents due to medical causes is low, 5 out of 800 = 0.625%). Saying that 1% is different to 0.5% is meaningless without confidence intervals, and suffers from the problem of rare events being compared. If there were no medicals, the numbers of accidents do the medical causes would be higher. Regards Michael -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net on behalf of Mike Borgelt Sent: Fri 10/11/2013 4:10 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals No, the lack of value of aviation medicals has been demonstrated by long pragmatic and statistical experience. I don't have the URL to hand but one study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. The BGA did a study many years ago of 800 glider accidents in the UK. IIRC about 5 may have had a medical component which would seem to be in accordance with the US experience. Of those, again IIRC, one was a medical condition that wouldn't be picked up in a PPL medical, two had PPLs and one was a serving military officer who had more frequent medicals of a higher stringency than a PPL medical. Even CASA recognised this in writing in a discussion paper in 2002 about the proposed Recreational Pilot's Licence. They proposed the same medical standard as a State driver's Licence (very little, looking at what drives). They specifically said some in the aviation industry might be uncomfortable with this but that the stats were clear that formal medicals did nothing for safety. This was a welcome attitude in the regulator - actual evidence based rule making. Of course the cretins in the GFA sent a couple of people (Meertens and Hall) along to the Minister to kill this proposal for gliding, along with the collusion of Paul Middleton of the RAAus. One of the more notable acts of bastardry in Australian aviation which has a long history of such. Mike At 05:41 PM 11/10/2013, you wrote: Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=_=_NextPart_001_01CEC655.49080C07 Hi All, To self declare is hardly onerous. If you have any of the conditions that make you ineligible to self declare, then get an Australian Medical Certificate. I now await the bun-fight regarding the value of aviation medicals and whether they have really made the skies safer, using the argument that medicals are costly and someone knows somebody that had a medically incapacitating event just after they had passed their medical etc.. Would the same argument work regarding glider maintenance, saying that form 2 are not worthwhile because there have been instances where gliders have come to grief after passing their form 2 etc. Doctor's hat on Michael == Dr. Michael Texler M.B. B.S. M.D.(Adel) F.R.C.P.A. Consultant Anatomical Pathologist c/- Department of Histopathology, PathWest, B Block, Level 5, Fremantle Hospital, Alma Sreet, Fremantle 6160, WA, Australia Ph: +61 (0)8 9431 2681 Email: michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matt Gage Sent: Friday, 11 October 2013 14:52 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals However, the crazy situation is that if a US pilot holds a class 2 medical, they can fly here using that unless they gain Australian citizenship, at which time they have to suddenly self certify or get an Australian class 2 Or an Australian who has lived overseas for many years is unable to use their class 2 on a brief holiday here Looks like we have badly thought through regs, or possibly the interpretations on the web site are too simplistic. I hope it's the latter Matt On 11 Oct 2013, at 17:25, Christopher Thorpe mailto:ctho...@bigpond.comctho...@bigpond.com wrote: An Australian flying on an Australian pilot certificate who is ineligible to self-declare their medical status must hold an Australian Medical Certificate. This is the case even if an Australian also holds citizenship of another country. If the person holds dual citizenship of countries other than Australia and they are ineligible to self-declare, then they will need to provide a Medical certificate issued by the State that issued their Pilot's Licence. Christopher Thorpe From:
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
OK I'm not sure you actually read my post. Either that or your reading comprehension is extremely poor. Mike Borgelt stated. One study in the US was that medical conditions for powered aircraft pilots were around 1% of accident causes. Fortunately they had a large body of experience with glider and balloon pilots who self certify and the medical rate of accident causes was 0.5% or so amongst them. Your point being that self reporting medical accident rate is 0.5% versus 1% for powered a/c pilots? Same for the US glider and balloon pilots and both are based on a large number of events so the stats, even if somewhat uncertain are likely pretty good. Before you attack me personally please provide some links to creditable data with regards to the stats and confidence intervals. 'Likely pretty good' would not get accepted in a published report! winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals
Thanks Mike and Carol, That's Gold, OK, bring it on. Implement it and see what happens! Unless I have completely mis read it again, an initially medical issuance would still be required (i.e. Driver's licence initial issue requires a medical and this is used in lieu)? Then attendance and sign of for medical self awareness courses and using self report for restricted operations (i.e. single engine, one pax max etc..)? Michael From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 14 October 2013 10:27 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Medicals Carol did a little search and turned this up: http://www.eaa.org/news/2012/petition_for_exemption.pdf 41 pages, page 11 has this heading if you don't want to read it all. Equivalent level of safety is demonstrated in history This petition for exemption is backed by sound statistical data Continue from there. Various statistical studies are referenced. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] BORING at BSS
Very boring day at Beverley Soaring Society on Saturday 9th Nov, 2013. At least 8 club and private gliders went out and completed 300 km tasks. Lift was still working to 9,000' AMSL at 1650 hours WST (no daylight saving here in WA). Great (boring) day had by all. Thanks to all who helped out to make the day possible. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] battery power
The vast array of PV solar panels on the hangar roof? These require burning non renewables for manufacture (mining the metals, processing, transport, installation etc.). Making PV stuff is CO2 intensive, see http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Nice video
Nice footage from around Innsbruck. Stunning place to go gliding. I have done a cross country out of Southern Bavaria (Königsdorf) into Tirol and back (in a G103 no less). For us flat-landers it is quite a lot of fun when you are ridge soaring at 9,000' AMSL! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Rudder lock?
It helps to remove the rudder lock during pre-flight, it was discovered on climbout. That is very poor airmanship, the pilot in command is lucky that nothing worse happened. I have flown C152's, a rudder lock should be obvious on the pre-flight walk around. I also do a full and free control check as part of the walk around too, and in a C152, the tail is very easily seen from the cockpit. Surely the pilot in command would have noticed something wrong whilst taxying, or was he using toe brakes to steer? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Rudder lock? Should be Rudder Tool....
Disclaimer: The following message is presented in a slightly humourous vein, but its message is serious. Last time i checked you can fly a aircraft without a rudder. Possible, but not recommended It is obvious when the preflight is done in the day time and not in the pitch black of the morning. I have done pre flights in the pre-dawn, yep it is dark. The plane I was doing a DI on was parked at Adelaide Int'l and fortuantely under an apron floodlight. I also used a big bright torch, combined with a paranoia about not missing anything in the reduced lighting conditions. But i wouldn't say that to him, he's got about 150 LBS on me and you combined. I really don't care how much he weighs! Was he exceeding the seat loading of the C152, did he bother to check weight and balance? 150lb is 68 kg, almost counts as another passenger. When doing an autopsy, I weigh the body. Air investigator and insurers are very interested if an aircraft was being operated within C of G limits... So do you push on the rudder just above or below where it says DONT PUSH ??? No I don't. I use these things in the cockpit called rudder pedals to see if I have full and free movement (same applies with the ailerons and elevator). I normally don't operate the rudder in flight by going to the back of the aircraft and pushing on it... ;-) ...rear full to the brim with cargo it is not visible. Does this suggest that the DI is done after the a/c is loaded. I normally do my DI before I load anything in... 0-) Yep Grade 1 Powered instructors are also novice pilots when it comes to the simple things, done in extreme conditions... Sounds more like complacency. I wouldn't call pre-dawn extreme conditions... Mike Borgelt worries about the standard of Gliding Instruction, but it looks like GA has got its fair share too! Guess I better get back to work... ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Being assertive (CRM)
And you learned not to fly with somebody more stupid/careless/braver than you regardless of their qualifications. I had the opportunity of flying with a very experienced and respected glider pilot (the pilot had also worked as a commercial pilot, he had 10,000's of hours in gliders and powered a/c). The pilot was P1. I became quite concerned during late final approach (it was a gusty day, we had been ridge flying), when we were coming in very low over the fence, with not much airspeed or energy either. We had plenty of height on approach, so scraping back to the field wasn't an issue. There was aggressive use of airbrakes on late final to effect a short field approach. We were less than 50ft over obstacles, no allowance for the gust factor was used. Given the conditions, there wasn't any room for error. If the pilot had been a student, I would have demanded a check ride. I didn't say anything at the time (regrettably). However my respect for this pilots ability was slightly lessened despite the pilot's vast experience. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mammatus Cloud, political correctness...
problem it had to stop using it as the world became politically correct That is so silly if it is true, America maybe, but not Oz? Then words like Mammal, would be right out. Or: Galaxy, Mammillary Bodies, Nipple (used in a engineering sense). Whatever next: little cloth booties around the release knob so we don't get titillated (oops, another bad word, damn, sorry ... ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Theories about mammatus Cloud (serious post)
The conventional teaching is that mammatus indicates downdraughts and turbulence, hence we should avoid flying under it. The cause and significance of mammatus cloud is not a clear cut as people may think: See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammatus (Noting that wikipedia is not peer reviewed, any meteorologists out there?) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Dick Johnson
There is more here: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7051421version=2locale=EN-USlayoutCode=TSTYpageId=3.2.1 What happened? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Unmanned Gliders To Seek Their Own Lift
Sounds a bit like April's fool. I am sceptical that it would work, not with the current technology. But I am not a tech head, so what would I know...! I would've thought that the weight of the computing hardware plus batteries would be quite a lot. Anyway, isn't 1.5kg wetware with a ~80kg support system cheaper to run, uses known technology, and is more fun ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Condolences
Re Accident near Watts Bridge. Condolences to the family and friends of the casualties. Truly sad ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Training Value of 400 to 500 AGL flight
I doubt there is any training value at all in 400 to 500 feet. I believe that there is some training value in such a flight: The ability to fly and manoevure confidently at low level without getting ground fright. (i.e. if I had the option to do a low level circuit for a safe landing on field after a rope break, that would my first option). Also low level flight is experience with ridge flying too. Also in still wind conditions, a 180 degree turn can be considered. Such manoevures need to be demonstrated at altitude, i.e. demonstrate a 180 degree change of heading with minimum height loss, in a Grob G103, banked at 60 degrees, 60 knots airspeed, in still air, height loss in a 180 degree turn is 150', with a diameter of the turn of 120m Obviously needs to be done with a proper briefing, exercise at altitude, exercise at 400' to 500' AGL, post flight de-brief. The plane doesn't know how far it is above the ground. My 2.2c worth ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Training Value of 400 to 500 AGL flight
Why the 60 degrees bank for minimum height loss? Strictly you are correct, for minimum height loss you would have zero angle of bank, but the you would be able to get around. The 60 degree bank provides you with a smaller turn radius, it is a compromise between height loss and getting the aircraft back around. I will do the maths for it. winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Maths and rope breaks
I was by no way suggesting that one does the maths whilst in flight. It is used as the justification for performing such manoevures! Ok, radius of turn is given by R=V*V/(g*tan(bank)) R is radius in metres V is given in metres per second g is acceleration due gravity = 9.81 m/s/s Bank = angle of bank (AOB) in degrees (0=level) To convert knots to metres per second use: Airspeed in knots * 0.515 =metres/second. Given an example sink rate (i.e Bergfalke IV) at zero angle of bank at 60 KIAS as -3m/s (almost 600fpm down), making an approximation that the sink rate for a particular angle of bank is = 1/cos(bank). So at 30 degree AOB, the sink rate is -3.5m/s At 45 degree AOB, the sink rate is -4.2m/s At 60 degree AOB, the sink rate is -6 Hence pluging in values: At an airspeed of 60 knots AOB = 30, radius of turn is 552 feet = circling diameter of 336 metres AOB 45, radius = 319 feet, = circling diameter of 194 metres AOB 60, radius = 184 feet, = circling diameter of 112 metres The distance to travel half way around these circels (180 degree turn) is pi * diameter, time required to go the distance is distance travelled / airspeed AOB=30, distance=529m, time required=17secs, height loss (at sink of 3.5m/s) = 194 feet, diameter 336m AOB=45, distance=305m, time required=10secs, height loss (at sink of 4.2m/s) = 137 feet, diameter 194m AOB=60, distance=176m, time required=6secs, height loss (at sink of 6m/s) = 112 feet, diameter 112m Remember that the wider the diameter of the turn, you will have to turn through more than 180 degrees to get back to the strip, because the shallower turn will carry you further away from the airfield. These figures are for still air, add at least another 60ft to the height loss to allow for the surprise factor (i.e. in the 5-6seconds after the rope break, allowing for reaction times, and time to stabilise speed before turning). That is your level sink rate is 600fpm (i.e. 10 feet per second down), hence over 6 seconds, you would descend 60 feet). I will let people go figure what course of action they would decide. I sincerely hope that people have this all thought through when they do their pre-take-off checks, always(hint: it is under O for outside, obtacles and options). I have my flame suit on, and I am prepared for feedback re the maths ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns
60 degree banks at low level/half circuit height are the way to go when turning back from a rope break, I predict that the accident rate will soar (pardon the pun) with spiralling-in being the new buzzword. Only if you are unable to fly an aircraft properly... Turns like this are done by ridge soaring pilots all the time, you are often much closer to the ground than 400'. It is not about mandating anything, it is about possibilities when faced with a rope break. It is about assessing the conditions situation before take-off during your pre-take off checks. Given a long strip, and very light winds or almost due crosswind, a 180 degree turn after a rope break is an 'option', if the land ahead options are not there and you are too low to do a modified circuit to another runway. Increasingly, airfields are being surrounded by housing, hence landing options in event of a rope break are becoming rarer. If there is a cross wind, remember to turn into the wind, because the wind will then push you back to aid in lining up with the strip. Doing a 180 degree turn to land does not require wild procedure turns to line yourself up, using a minimum radius turn should put you no more than 115m away from the runway midline. Mike, are you being serious with the comment?: I take it you aren't a fan of a quick pull to vertical, stall turn and recover from dive going in the opposite direction with minimum offset? Seriously, Mike, is that what you would do in that situation? You have also not shown that 60 degrees is a minimum height loss just lower than 30 and 45 degrees. I have shown it is the minimum height loss when given a choice of 30, 45 or 60 degree AOB. Can you provide alternate figures and formulae to support what you say? 60 degree AOB provides a smaller radius turn, it does not involve extreme angles of bank and or pitch, hence a newly solo pilot should be able to manage it. With regard to the Bergie figures, apologies to Anthony (the figures were from POLAR10.xls). Thus lower sink rates would lead to lesser height loss in the turn. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] For a very rare reality...
Point taken.. But I am sure there are those who have experienced low level rope breaks for real (as rare as it is), what did they do? did their training help? What would you do? But it is still about options and what a properly flown glider can or can't do. At least, 180 degree turns should be demonstrated at safe altitude to illustrate how much height is lost aand the manoevuring involved. Whether a briefing alone would suffice? Again it is all about having options. Agreed, training should be not about exposing students to unnecessary risk, so some on this list are saying that low level rope break training is really too risky for any perceived benefits. Aviation history is littered with stories of accidents and fatalities during emergency situation training. On the same token, training should about instilling confidence and ability, such that pilots know they will be able to deal with emergency situations when they arise. Perhaps Tom Wilksch's idea of using a simulator should be given some serious thought (airlines have been doing that for years!). ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Low level aerobatics
and you cant do that under 1000 feet. All bets are off if it is an emergency. You need to do what is safe and appropriate. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Low level aerobatics
But surely practicing low level launch failure is not an emergency as such. That is true, and some might say that intentionally doing it is against the regs (and not worth the risk). But in a real emergency, agreed, do what is safe and appropriate... ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Safe and appropriate...
You need to do what is safe and appropriate. If you can land to 30 degrees off the centreline safely, then do so. If you can land ahead safely in the next paddock, then do so. If you can land on another runway, then do so. What happens when you can't? 60 degrees when low and slow?? in a 60 degree AOB turn your pulling 2g, and as a result your stall speed goes up by 41% 60 knots is hardly slow for a 60 degree AOB turn (it is the usual entry speed for a steep turn), you will be above that speed on aerotow anyway. Once you roll out of the turn, the g-loading goes down as does your stall speed The initial actions after a cable break are attain safe speed near ground, before pulling airbrakes, initiating turns etc etc. You will already be at safe speed, this is not a winch launch. You will just have to adjust the nose attitude to the safe flying speed attitude. Lets chuck in some wind sheer (i seem to recall this happeneing in the extreme low levels of the atmosphere) not to mention thermals etc etc. If wind shear is a consideration then it is most probably too windy to consider a 180 degree turn! Wind shear is normally a very low level phenomenon (in the lower 200') you should have completed your manoevuring by then. Safe speed near the ground allows for thermal gusts too. Sometimes having too much airpseed can be problematic too because that will mean a much longer ground roll on landing. The idea is to have good airspeed control. I should know, I have spent many, many hours flying the Lochiel ridge, in gusty air, with thermals, and doing steep turns down low. You would have to be damn low to get wind shear effects (note wind shear is different to wind gradient). Teaching students to whip a beast around after they have buggered around and lost airspeed is fatal in my opinion. I totally agree. Hence you need to teach students to have safe airspeed before manoevuring. Don't allow them to bugger around. For all the nay sayers and skeptics, why don't you take a twin seater up and do some 60 degree AOB turns at 60 knots. Do it several times. Have the other pilot time how long it takes to do and monitor how much height is lost. Why not go up with an experienced ridge pilot, often times they are doing steep turns near the ground without any ill effect. As an aside: What are the hard numbers? Can the anecdotes and speculation be backed up with statistics? What is the outcome of low level rope breaks (real ones)? What percentage of pilots get injured or killed? What percentage of aircraft get damaged? What course of action did the pilot take? Has anyone heard of a gliding training accident whilst doing a 180 degree turn down low? If people feel more comfortably giving me an off list reply then do so. I can then compile a summary. winmail.dat___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Simulating rope/cable breaks at height, turning back....
A very useful and instructive exercise to do at altitude is simulated
rope/cable breaks.
I have already mentioned about 180 degree turns being demonstrated at altitude.
When instructing at a winch club, I would do a winch failure exercise thus
(obviously after briefing the student and doing a pre-aerobatic check!):
Gain 65 knots airspeed, pull the aircraft up into a 45 degree node up climb,
Call out 'Bang' (as a cue that the rope had gone) when the airspeed decayed
through about 55knots, and then got the student to do the recovery. It is a
very useful point to get the student to count the seconds required to gain safe
flying speed and safe attitude after nosing over and before turning('One
thunder, two thunder, three thunder...'). Even with the most aggressive nose
over, it would take at least 5 seconds, usually 6 seconds, to acheive safe
flying speed.
If time and altitude permitted, the same exercise would be done with the
student trying to turn before safe speed had been acheived (and whilst the
aircraft was in a reduced g situation whilst nosing over). The subsequent rapid
entry into a spin or other high rate of descent manoevure would leave no doubt
that turning before the establishment of safe speed was a very dangerous thing
to do.
The turnback article by Mike Valentine is very well written, and in Mike's
usual style, very instructive.
In a powered aircraft (say Cessna C172) with a glide ratio of (optimistically)
9 to 1, turning back is not an option for the reasons given in Mike's article.
I wouldn't even consider a turnback in a powered aircraft below 1,500' AGL, you
wouldn't get back around. When I did simulated engine failure drills in
Cessnas, the downwind leg of circuit started at 3,500' AGL.
But gliders, by their very nature, have more options for turning than an
ultralight or powered aircraft because gliders' glide ratios are so much better.
Do what is safe and appropriate.
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Re: [Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns - teardrop
To throw the cat amongst the pigeons. Here are some links with attached research, regarding the best way to do a 180 (if required). Any comments or disagreements? OK, if people want to poo-poo this, please provide a rational and reasoned explanation why (i.e. use a scientific and objective argument). http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf Conclusions A simplified model of the turnback maneuver after engine failure during the take-off climb segment has been developed. The model shows that optimum conditions for returning to the departure runway result from climbing at Vmax , executing a gliding turn through a 190-220deg heading change, using a 45deg bank angle at 5% above the stall velocity in the turn using a teardrop shaped flight path. P.S. Thanks to Daryl McKay for providing these links. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns - teardrop
They don't think the optimum is 60 degrees though. Yep, I found that interesting too. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns - teardrop
Thanks Terry, Unfortunately however, math or not, the history is that a lot of people who have attempted this option died in so doing. To make such a statement, you need to know the of people who have died doing this manoevure divided by number of times the manoevure is performed. I am sure that we don't hear about the majority of people that have performed this manoevure successfully without incident. As for turnbacks at 200 ft? Not if I'm around thank you! Especially if I'm on the inside of the aircraft. What would you do if there was no land ahead option (i.e. wooded area)? Landing in trees is not a low risk manoevure either. The other problem with a theoretical approach to a situation like this is that it might indeed be achievable with an above average pilot, The paper presented placed student pilots in the simulator as well. The point being made is that a pilot of average skill with appropriate training can do this manoevure safely. Thermalling turns are done at 45 degree AOB and at lower airspeed! Hence 45 degree AOB at 1.5 x Vs level (in other words at safe speed near the ground), should be a manoevure that a solo standard pilot can acheive. Again this underscores practicing the manoevure at altitude and making sure that the student can get it right. programs himself to consider the same option if it happens to him, We should all have our launch failure options clear in our minds during our pre take-off check. You can guess the rest. This is why a pilot should not be sent solo if they do not have good speed control, especially near the ground. It's usually much easier and quicker to derig the aircraft in the next paddock than to have to pick up all the pieces on the airfield. That's still how I would prefer to approach an event like this. I'm not sure if this is sufficiently rational or reasoned, but wreckage on the ground has a way of re-evaluating theoretical argument - often very dramatically. As I have said repeatedly, if you can land ahead safely, do so. This covers the situation where you can't. I am sure you could make the converse argument, seeing the wreckage in unlandable terrain off the end of the runway would be equally as sad. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Targetting Groups for retention, and my own recriutment, retention story
In my experience, long-term members are people who always wanted to learn how to fly, but never knew they could do it as accessibly as gliding. Kids, sailors and motorcycle riders tend to be disproportionately represented. I think it has been mentioned before, that posters for the local gliding club could be put up at sailing clubs or other represented group. The other group of people to target are those who have been more active in gliding or other aviation related activity in the past. The task would be then to reignite their passion and interest. It would be interesting to know the retention rates of Air Training Corp Cadets. My own experience: I was fascinated with flight ever since I hopped on a TAA T-jet in 1974 (Adelaide to Melbourne flight). As a kid, I built planes out of lego, made a balsa wood and doped paper throw glider, even considered getting into radio controlled stuff. (i.e. I always wanted to learn how to fly) Just before I started Uni, my Dad had told me that he thought there was a Uni Glining Club. A work colleague of my Dad was a tow pilot at Waikerie and had told my Dad about the Adelaide Uni Gliding Club (i.e. lucky word of mouth) So when I started Uni, at O'week, I actively sought the Uni Gliding Club and signed up. At that time (prior to joining up), I thought that gliding was a poor cousin to power flying (just glorified paper darts), but any flying was better than no flying. My first day on field comprised 3 circuits off a winch launch in a Bergy (GZM) at the end of the day. I was hooked. So either fortunately or unfortunately (depending upon your opinion of me..;-) ), I am still keen on gliding some 21 years later. Mind you raising a young family and having chronic illness in the family has tempered my participation over the last couple of years (my priority is to my family), but I anticipate that my activity in the sport will increase as my kids become interested (they are only 4.5 and almost 3 years old) and health problems settle. The challenge for the gliding movement in Australia is seeking out those who wish to fly for pleasure, versus those who want to do it and move on as they they tick the been there and done that box. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Sartorial elegance in gliding....
Beige is a safe, comforting and non-threatening colour, that is why it features so much with the OFITTH set. Other objects that are beige: Old ugg boots Arrowroot biscuits Yo-Yo biscuits Milky Tea The Murray A terry towelling hat after it has blown off your head and landed on the ground a couple of times Stubble paddocks viewed from above An unwashed ES59 Arrow Runs and hides ;-) P.S. Think I'll go gliding this weekend. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] BORING
At Beverley Soaring Society last Saturday. Lovely streeting lift to 5,500' AMSL (limited by cloudbase). Strong post frontal wind out of the WSW. Had a 75min flight in the DG1000, took my nephew for an introductory flight, had him thermalling (in a fashion) by the end of the flight. Had difficulty coming down due to the strong lift. Much fun had by all. Many thanks to all those who helped run the day. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Towling, Terry
You're right, Terry Towelling is hard to find! Doesn't he live next door to Polly Theen and Lucy Lastic? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
I would take any report from the media with a grain of salt. Sounds like a bit of a racist beat up. How many of you would mutter some oath when things are going wrong? Has anyone actually heard the cockpit voice recordings? Not until you have done this can you pass comment. Please see for the English version of the investigation report, it makes for an interesting read: http://www.ansv.it/cgi-bin/eng/FINAL%20REPORT%20ATR%2072.pdf ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The power of the media, was RE: The power of prayer?
All 366 pages? Yup! ;-) Why let the facts get in the way of a good story? Much of the report comprises appendices (these in themselves are interesting). The conclusion starts at page 193 and goes for about 10 or so pages. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Rosary Beads
At the risk of being off topic... My Granny (for those who knew her (or were delivered by her), Eva Texler) used to drive an apple green Volkswagen Beetle and say the rosary at the same time (the beads were draped around the indicator stick). Osteoporosis was not kind to her, hence she sat on pillows and peered through the spokes of the steering wheel that was clutched by arthritic fingers. She stopped driving in her late 80's. She lived to 95 years. Somebody, or something (or perhaps luck) was looking after her, because her driving in her later years was a worry! Don't diss the beads man!.. ;-) Runs and hides ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] BORING
After the explosions settled down, he stuck his head above the parapet. He surveyed the scorched earth before him and declared: I went gliding last Saturday at BSS. I did emergency procedures with a trainee. I sent someone solo. I flew an Air Experience Flight. But not all in the same flight though. He sat down. Smiled to himself and thought, Gee, that was fun. Must do it again sometime soon... ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Pumping mercury, yikes!
George Moffatt once had a system of pumping mercury in a Nimbus 3. Wouldn't want any of that liquid metal stuff going near the metal pushrods or fittings. Mecrucy does unpleasant things to aviation alloys. If he had a prang, cleaning up the liquid mercury might be fun. And isn't pumping mercury around a bit OTT anyway? See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] BORING
Despite the big wet on the East coast, we had a lovely sunny autumn's day at BSS on Saturday 25th. (Rain during the non flying days would be very welcome). Climbs to 5,000' were acheived in rapidly cycling thermals (ok; nothing like the Bunyan wave). Training flights were being carried out. We had four AEFs as well. Everyone had a fun time. Thanks to all who helped out to make the day possible in all their various roles. Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Disclaimers was ASW20B for Sale
LOL The disclaimer and confidentiality clause down the bottom is longer than the advert! You gotta love that! Runs and hides ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] control inspections
A sadly fatal mistake, re the accident in NZ. It needs to be taught and remembered that if a pre-take off or rigging check is interrupted for whatever reason, that the checking sequence needs to be started again from the beginning. So if you are doing a rigging check and are interrupted, start it again. Use a written checklist (you will be less likely to miss something). Having more than one person checking a control circuit is no insurance either. There is the famous instance of a Libelle having its ailerons rigged in the opposite sense after a form 2. True, the aileron actuators are mirror images and can be installed in the opposite wings without difficulty, however; the fault was not detected by the form 2 inspector or the daily inspector or the pilot as part of his pre-take off check (so much for checking control operation in correct sense and direction). The aircraft made it to take off on aerotow, but crashed due to the pilot using correct (but incorrectly acting) control inputs. I also know of a case where a glider has been rigged and independently checked. The controls moved in the correct sense but a positive connection wasn't present because only friction was holding one half of the aileron circuit together. The aircraft flew after a winch launch, fortunately the pilot was able to control the aircraft with one aileron (because the disconnected aileron trailed in the air flow) and rudder for a safe landing. It could've ended much worse. The key point is keeping focussed on the task at hand when it comes to doing a check. As controversial as it seems, use a checklist for mission critical checks (such as rigging checks). Commercial pilots use checklists, they also have the concept of 'sterile cockpit' (i.e. there should be no conversation or activity that is not directly related to the conduct of the flight). Idle chit chat at the launch point whilst someone is in the middle of their pre-take off checks should be discouraged (we are all guilty of that one). When I am about to fly power aircraft, I do my walk around and daily inspection on my own, with no-one looking over my shoulder. I don't let anyone interrupt me, unless there is a good reason. I would then start the walk around again. Mind you, the wings of the aircraft don't get pulled off on a regular basis either. To recap. 1.) If doing a check, don't get interrupted. If you are interrupted, start the checks again. 2.) Consider using a checklist. 3.) Use the concept of 'sterile cockpit' when doing a check. Non essential chit chat should be verboten 4.) Having a second person re-check something for you is a bonus, but not a guarantee that they won't make the same error as you. 5.) Keep your mind on the job. Safe flying Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] control inspections comparison with hospital practice
You're a pathologist, aren't you? If you're interrupted in an autopsy do you start again? Not quite a valid comparison. No I do not start an autopsy again, because it is not possible to do so. This is where note taking becomes paramount. Again, I do not let anyone interrupt me during an autopsy unless there is a good reason. On the same token, I do not perform two autopsies at once, because the opportunity for mix ups becomes greatly increased. A DI and pre-take off check can be started again. Do you really start a DI at the beginning again if interrupted? Yes. That's why I don't let people interrupt me during a DI unless there is a very good reason. Working in a public hospital Emergency Department I am CONTINUALLY nterrupted. One can discipline oneself to make sure that checks and procedures are completed, but sometimes it's not easy. It's an interesting comparison. This is why we have medical indemnity insurance, because mistakes will happen. In a past life I have worked in Accident and Emergency departments too. It is a very different atmsophere to doing a daily inspection or pre take-off check because you have many tasks happening at once with varying degrees of urgency, with many factors not under your direct control. The risk of mistakes is real and we are trained as professionals to minimise these. One way to minimise mistakes is to keep good notes and to communicate well with your colleagues, staff and the patient and their relatives. However, in a public hospital, hopefully you are surrounded by colleagues and nursing staff (your team) who are hopefully looking out for you in case a slip up occurs. An example of CRM (cockpit resource management) perhaps. If you have done the Early Management of Severe Trauma (EMST) one of the things you are taught is to use all available resources and people to help you. On a DI and pre-take off check, you are often on your own. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
