AW: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Steffen Heil
Hi How can I configure ClamAV not to try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks? Modify your mail scanner to pass HTML.Phishing.* through. What happens in the case, that some virus programmer reads this list and now creates a virus, that contains a phishing html content,

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Trog
On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 14:57, Julian Mehnle wrote: 3. I am using the SpamCop reporting tool[1] to file complaints to ISPs about spam (which specifically includes phishing attacks) that I receive. SpamCop requires spam samples to be manually checked for spamminess before being

Re: [Clamav-users] clamd segfaults

2004-11-15 Thread Trog
On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 12:40, Bernhard Erdmann wrote: What exact version of zlib do you have installed? Upgrade to zlib 1.2.2. 1.1.4 is installed Ok, please run clamd under gdb and do a backtrace. Thanks, -trog signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part

[Clamav-users] OT: Spamcop.net/RBLs (Was: ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks)

2004-11-15 Thread Thomas Lamy
Trog schrieb: On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 14:57, Julian Mehnle wrote: 3. I am using the SpamCop reporting tool[1] to file complaints to ISPs about spam (which specifically includes phishing attacks) that I receive. SpamCop requires spam samples to be manually checked for spamminess before

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Nigel Horne
You can set the Advisory mode in clamav-milter to effect this. -Nigel ___ http://lists.clamav.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/clamav-users

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Nigel Horne
FC3 ships with 1.2.1, and RH have yet to issue an update... -Nigel -- Nigel Horne. Arranger, Composer, Typesetter. NJH Music, Barnsley, UK. ICQ#20252325 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bandsman.co.uk ___

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Daniel J McDonald
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 08:26 -0500, jef moskot wrote: The average admin is most likely very pleased with the ClamAV team's decision to block phishing attacks (or at least the incredibly prevelant ones). Yes, absolutely. The poor **cough cough** exchange 5.5 **cough cough** servers that I

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Trog wrote: You're trying to kid me, right? I'm not going to be scared away just because you wish to take a fundamentalist position that ClamAV should _not_ offer an option to ignore social engineering attacks even though they are clearly different from technical attacks. I'm not

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Daniel J McDonald
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 13:49 +, Nigel Horne wrote: FC3 ships with 1.2.1, and RH have yet to issue an update... ditto for Mandrake 10.1 I think that might change if the zlib team would update http://www.gzip.org/zlib which is described as the canonical URL ... -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE #

[Clamav-users] [OT] Was: ClamAV should not try to detect phishing

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Julian Mehnle wrote: Instead I outright reject unwanted messages during the SMTP transaction, so the sender gets notified. My users can see what messages have been rejected by skimming over a list of recently rejected messages once or twice a week (see an example here[1]). This practice has

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Daniel J McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 08:26 -0500, jef moskot wrote: Personally, I don't think much of SpamCop, but I do see that as Julian's most compelling argument. I think that warrants a ClamAV option, but I also think it would be ill-advised to use it.

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trog wrote: I'm not trying to scare you away, I really don't care what you do. I've told you how you can easily do what you want, using ClamAV. As Trog has already mentioned, you can simply remove the phishing signatures from the database. This is not

RE: [Clamav-users] [OT] Was: ClamAV should not try to detect phishing

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Steve Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: http://julian.io.link-m.de/misc/rejected-messages Very nice. What did you use to create that? I am using Courier as my MTA and the self developed, Perl-based Courier::Filter for rejecting messages. I wrote a logger module for

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Julian Mehnle wrote: Pardon me, Trog offered me two options, of which user another product was the first. If that isn't scaring me away for you, then I don't know what is. That was just another alternative :) I might be able to remove the signatures I don't want, but I would still have

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 8:26 AM, jef moskot wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Trog wrote: For example, the last Bagle (or Bofra) outbreak simply sent an email to it's target victims, who then have to click on a link to download the Worm. According to your definition, that is a 'social' attack, and should

Re: [Clamav-users] [OT] Was: ClamAV should not try to detect phishing

2004-11-15 Thread Graham Toal
Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice layout, BTW. Thanks. I'll probably have to improve it a bit, though, because the table is far too wide for most screens. Haven't you had any privacy issues from your users yet? Maybe a real mail wrongly filed, with a subject line and a from address which

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Tomasz Kojm
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:02:03 +0100 Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: I might be able to remove the signatures I don't want, but I would still have to know if there is an authoritative hierarchy of signature names from which I can

RE: [Clamav-users] [OT] Was: ClamAV should not try to detect phishing

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Graham Toal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Haven't you had any privacy issues from your users yet? Maybe a real mail wrongly filed, with a subject line and a from address which gave away something they'd rather was not public? The public table is just a static snapshot I took and anonymized before

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Tomasz Kojm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, but the point of my question was that I wanted to know whether there are more social engineering signature in the database than just phishing ones. Yes, there are. E.g. HTML.Mydoom.email-gen-1 and

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dennis Skinner
Julian Mehnle wrote: Besides, if mail servers started using SPF (or similar authentication techniques) to verify envelope sender addresses, whoever publishes SPF records for his domains would be Not to start another flame war, but I find it interesting that you take such a hard-nosed approach to

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Brian Morrison
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 13:37:04 +0100 in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're trying to kid me, right? I'm not going to be scared away just because you wish to take a fundamentalist position that ClamAV should _not_ offer an option to ignore social engineering

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread jef moskot
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bart Silverstrim wrote: I'd say leave it to the antispammers to hammer out, and to the people who focus on bayes filters... In my case, if Clam has a chance to see the phishing e-mail, the anti-spam tactics have already failed. So, from my point of view, this is extra

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 10:40 AM, Dennis Skinner wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: Besides, if mail servers started using SPF (or similar authentication techniques) to verify envelope sender addresses, whoever publishes SPF records for his domains would be Not to start another flame war, but I find it

[Clamav-users] Scan outgoing Mail in Exim

2004-11-15 Thread Tamouh H.
Hi ! Is there an alternative to configure ClamAV to scan exim outgoing mail without using the mailscanner package ? Thx, Tamouh Hakmi ___ http://lists.clamav.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/clamav-users

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Trog
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:27, Nigel Horne wrote: On Monday 15 Nov 2004 13:49, Nigel Horne wrote: FC3 ships with 1.2.1, and RH have yet to issue an update... Mind you, they don't include clam in their distro either, which is surprising. Yes, I thought that as well. I wondered if that would

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Brian Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're trying to kid me, right? I'm not going to be scared away just because you wish to take a fundamentalist position that ClamAV should _not_ offer an option to ignore social engineering attacks even though

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Julian Mehnle wrote: Thanks, but the point of my question was that I wanted to know whether there are more social engineering signature in the database than just phishing ones. Apologies. I misinterpreted that question. Yes, there are. E.g. HTML.Mydoom.email-gen-1 and others...

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:14 AM, jef moskot wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bart Silverstrim wrote: I'd say leave it to the antispammers to hammer out, and to the people who focus on bayes filters... In my case, if Clam has a chance to see the phishing e-mail, the anti-spam tactics have already failed.

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Tomasz Kojm
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:28:51 + Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I thought that as well. I wondered if that would be different if there was a Gnome Clam scanner something else thats on my TODO list, which just seems to get bigger all the time. Take a look at:

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dave Goodrich
Julian Mehnle wrote: Dennis Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: Besides, if mail servers started using SPF (or similar authentication techniques) to verify envelope sender addresses, whoever publishes SPF records for his domains would be Not to start another flame war, but I find

Re: [Clamav-users] Scan outgoing Mail in Exim

2004-11-15 Thread Riemer Palstra
On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 11:43:41AM -0500, Tamouh H. wrote: Is there an alternative to configure ClamAV to scan exim outgoing mail without using the mailscanner package ? ExiScan comes to mind: http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan-acl/ -- Riemer Palstra [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Clamav-users] freshclam error

2004-11-15 Thread Paul Dobson
I have just uninstalled clamav 0.70 and installed clamav 0.80 on MacOSX. Clamav itself seems to be working ok but freshclam fails to start with an error message saying that it cannot open /usr/local/lib/libclamav.1.dylib. When I look in the directory that file is not there but there is

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that, as yourself and others have mentioned, the distinction between the different categories are dependant upon personal interpretation. What one classes as social engineering, someone else may class as, for example, malware. Even though they can

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Brian Morrison
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:30:39 +0100 in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You can easily do what you want provided you are prepared to put the time and effort into doing it. Meanwhile everyone else will continue to use the hard work of the ClamAV team to its full

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Brian Morrison
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:48:35 +0100 in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there definitely is a distinction between technical attacks and social engineering attacks, even though they're somewhat overlapping. I can't see logically how things that are distinct can also

Re: [Clamav-users] freshclam error

2004-11-15 Thread Brian Morrison
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:51:07 + in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul Dobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I look in the directory that file is not there but there is libclamav.1.0.3.dylib. Anybody any ideas on how to fix this? A symlink from the libclamav.1.0.3.dylib to libclamv.1.dylib sounds

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Brian Morrison
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:53:31 +0100 in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please give a full definition of Spam and Malware/Viruses that do not intersect, and will never intersect for all future Spam and Malware such that we can be sure we

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Trog
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:53, Julian Mehnle wrote: Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please give a full definition of Spam and Malware/Viruses that do not intersect, and will never intersect for all future Spam and Malware such that we can be sure we know what you are requesting. The

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Brian Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I am suggesting is that, because you appear to have a requirement that is significantly different from nearly everyone else that has responded in this thread, (I don't think you're judging the proportions correctly.) you are in the best position

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Trog
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:38, Tomasz Kojm wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:28:51 + Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, I thought that as well. I wondered if that would be different if there was a Gnome Clam scanner something else thats on my TODO list, which just seems to get bigger

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Julian Mehnle wrote: Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is that, as yourself and others have mentioned, the distinction between the different categories are dependant upon personal interpretation. What one classes as social engineering, someone else may class

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:48 AM, Trog wrote: Not one of the Clam developers have proposed adding general spam detection to ClamAV. You're right. This was an idea being proposed, I thought...a suggestion. Isn't this something worth going over on a users list as discussion? Sorry if not... :-/

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What you don't seem to understand is that the distinction between technical attacks and social engineering attacks is irrelevant, because thats not what *any* anti-virus product has as a requirement. So now you're declaring _my_ requirements irrelevant. I'm not

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 11:54 AM, Brian Morrison wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 17:48:35 +0100 in [EMAIL PROTECTED] Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But there definitely is a distinction between technical attacks and social engineering attacks, even though they're somewhat overlapping. I can't see

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Brian Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please give a full definition of Spam and Malware/Viruses that do not intersect, and will never intersect for all future Spam and Malware such that we can be sure we know what

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Todd Lyons
Nigel Horne wanted us to know: On Monday 15 Nov 2004 13:49, Nigel Horne wrote: FC3 ships with 1.2.1, and RH have yet to issue an update... Mind you, they don't include clam in their distro either, which is surprising. I thought that Fedora was aimed for the desktop more than the server, and why

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread mark
On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:17:11AM -0800, Todd Lyons wrote: Nigel Horne wanted us to know: On Monday 15 Nov 2004 13:49, Nigel Horne wrote: FC3 ships with 1.2.1, and RH have yet to issue an update... Mind you, they don't include clam in their distro either, which is surprising. I thought

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Chris Meadors
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:12 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: If it's a bunch of flashy graphics telling you to visit a website for fantastic deals on hiding money from third world countries while getting fantastic mortgage rates on your pen1s enlargement ointment, it's for a spam filter.

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Daniel J McDonald
On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:00 +0100, Julian Mehnle wrote: Brian Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I am suggesting is that, because you appear to have a requirement that is significantly different from nearly everyone else that has responded in this thread, What I don't understand is

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dennis Skinner
Julian Mehnle wrote: technical := affecting the technical systems involved in storing and transporting the data items subject to being scanned by ClamAV. technical threat := (go figure...) Would that include viruses that require action on the part of the recipient? Included in password protected

Re: [Clamav-users] zlib 1.2.2 released

2004-11-15 Thread Todd Lyons
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wanted us to know: Why wouldn't you want to scan your home directory for virii? Or scan your Windows files over an SMB mount from your Linux box? Or ... I guess I'm just one of the lucky few who doesn't have to mess with Windows (except when one of my tenants screws up her

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 12:25 PM, Chris Meadors wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 12:12 -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: If it's a bunch of flashy graphics telling you to visit a website for fantastic deals on hiding money from third world countries while getting fantastic mortgage rates on your pen1s

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 12:29 PM, Daniel J McDonald wrote: clamav kills bad things - that's good, and I'd like it to be able to continue to kill bad things in the same expedient manner that it has in the past. That's not entirely true. There are people who installed it on Windows and Windows still

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Chris Meadors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about an e-mail that contains a link that takes one to a webpage that exploits the web browser to install a program that will intercept the account information the next time the actual site is visited? That's social engineering. I know some of you

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Julian Mehnle wrote: The definition of what _I_ would like ClamAV to detect is: anything that poses a technical thread, no matter whether it also poses a social/fraud threat or not. That's a clear enough criterion, isn't it? Again, that can be interpreted in different ways :) What is a

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Hanford, Seth
Would that include viruses that require action on the part of the recipient? Included in password protected zips? What is the difference between tricking a person into opening a password protected zip (which is not dangerous in its delivered form) and tricking a user into clicking a link

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 12:32 PM, Dennis Skinner wrote: How little user interaction is required before it is considered a technical enough? Require the user to open the attachment? Require the user to pop their mail? Technically, most viruses these days are social engineered in some way. Unlike

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Diego d'Ambra
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:clamav-users- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julian Mehnle Sent: 15. november 2004 17:54 To: ClamAV users ML Subject: RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks Trog [EMAIL

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Daniel J McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:00 +0100, Julian Mehnle wrote: What I don't understand is that no one seems to be willing to discuss my proposal of making the signature database modular, i.e. offer social engineering attack signatures separately from

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 12:43 PM, Matt wrote: If the standard database was segregated, some people would inevitably cock up their configs and run with partial protection. This can cause problems not only for themselves, but others, in the case of propogation. Whitelist all traffic you want to allow!

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dennis Skinner
Hanford, Seth wrote: Would that include viruses that require action on the part of the recipient? Included in password protected zips? What is the difference between tricking a person into opening a password protected zip (which is not dangerous in its delivered form) and tricking a user into

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Dennis Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: technical := affecting the technical systems involved in storing and transporting the data items subject to being scanned by ClamAV. technical threat := (go figure...) Would that include viruses that require action on the part

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bogusaw Brandys
Diego d'Ambra wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:clamav-users- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julian Mehnle Sent: 15. november 2004 17:54 To: ClamAV users ML Subject: RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and othersocial engineering attacks Trog

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Hanford, Seth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree with Julian that Clam does not seem the logical solution to Spam messages. Please note that I have never talked about ClamAV unwantedly detecting _spam_. I just talked about social engineering in general and about phishing in particular.

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dennis Skinner
Julian Mehnle wrote: Counter question: What do have the following in common: 1. tricking a user into clicking a link that takes him to a virus, and 2. tricking a user into clicking a link that takes him to a web page that tricks him into clicking on a link that takes him to the virus? Answer:

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Dennis Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: Counter question: What do have the following in common: 1. tricking a user into clicking a link that takes him to a virus, and 2. tricking a user into clicking a link that takes him to a web page that tricks him into clicking

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dave Goodrich
Trog wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 16:39, Dave Goodrich wrote: Julian Mehnle wrote: Am I? I'm just saying that I think that a distinction between technical attacks and social engineering attacks is possible and meaningful (even if not everyone would make use of that distinction). That has nothing

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread jef moskot
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bart Silverstrim wrote: ...if you're going to start moving it into another direction, it may be best to fork that and leave the original recipe alone until the new direction... I think you're overstating what the ClamAV team is trying to accomplish here. Forget the

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread jef moskot
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bart Silverstrim wrote: I think (julian's?) original problem was that he didn't see why a virus scanner should shoulder the responsibility for every message that goes out saying Hey, click here for k3wl new deals on Mort Gage rat3s! Yoove been approved!, when it's not a

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Ken Jones
I think the thing to remember here is that we are discussing scanning of email. If the email is malicious, then having clamav remove it is a good thing in my opinion. Spam (uce/ube) that poses no threat to the user, and is just an anoyance is what SA should be catching. Phising poses a threat to

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matthew.van.Eerde
Ken Jones wrote: I think the thing to remember here is that we are discussing scanning of email. If the email is malicious, then having clamav remove it is a good thing in my opinion. Spam (uce/ube) that poses no threat to the user, and is just an anoyance is what SA should be catching.

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Doug Hardie
On Nov 15, 2004, at 04:37, Julian Mehnle wrote: Trog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am, unfortunately, familiar with SpamCop (and all the other similar 'tools'). As a listed contact for over 16million Internet IP addresses I receive notices from such 'tools' all the time, and I've *never* had one

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detectphishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bit Fuzzy
I can't believe this one subject can create such a mess. ClamAv is marketed as an antivirus tool. I think, as you say, there is a need for a generic anti-malware tool. But don't call it clamav. Not detecting phishing attempts, would be like allowing Trojans through as acceptable attachments.

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Tomasz Kojm
On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:04:39 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Jones wrote: I think the thing to remember here is that we are discussing scanning of email. If the email is malicious, then having clamav remove it is a good thing in my opinion. Spam (uce/ube) that poses no threat to the

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dave Goodrich
Tomasz Kojm wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:04:39 -0800 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ken Jones wrote: I think the thing to remember here is that we are discussing scanning of email. If the email is malicious, then having clamav remove it is a good thing in my opinion. Spam (uce/ube) that poses no

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 2:02 PM, jef moskot wrote: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Bart Silverstrim wrote: ...if you're going to start moving it into another direction, it may be best to fork that and leave the original recipe alone until the new direction... I think you're overstating what the ClamAV team is

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dennis Skinner
Dave Goodrich wrote: My preference has been stated. I would prefer SpamAssassin do the puzzle solving of message bodies, headers, URI lookups, message obfuscation, etc and let ClamAV do the signature matching of attachments. SA uses many more resources than ClamAV. Clam is going to scan the msg

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through as an attachment with a pure text message so it

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Kevin W. Gagel
- Original Message Follows - Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:04:39 -0800 ClamAv is marketed as an antivirus tool. I think, as you say, there is a need for a generic anti-malware tool. But don't call it clamav. Yes it is, but the day is upon us that virus and spam and phishing are

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dave Goodrich
Dennis Skinner wrote: Dave Goodrich wrote: My preference has been stated. I would prefer SpamAssassin do the puzzle solving of message bodies, headers, URI lookups, message obfuscation, etc and let ClamAV do the signature matching of attachments. SA uses many more resources than ClamAV. Clam

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matthew.van.Eerde
Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through as an attachment with a pure text message so it

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Dave Goodrich
Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through as an attachment with a pure text message so it

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread John Jolet
I have to laugh and slap my knee here...as all the email I get from friends and acquaintances that use hotmail end up sending me pure html.not multipart mime with a text and html partJUST html. Very annoying when saving the message as text or using mutt. On Monday 15 November 2004

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 2:41 PM, Ken Jones wrote: Phising poses a threat to your users. The line between malware and virus' is a very grey one. Phishing is a threat if they supply information. How do you stop people from voluntarily giving information over? Scan every mail for text or formatting

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 4:27 PM, Dennis Skinner wrote: Dave Goodrich wrote: My preference has been stated. I would prefer SpamAssassin do the puzzle solving of message bodies, headers, URI lookups, message obfuscation, etc and let ClamAV do the signature matching of attachments. SA uses many more

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishingandothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 4:39 PM, Kevin W. Gagel wrote: If I could use a single package to virus scan, spam scan and protect my users and company against phishing attacks then I would gladly use it (provided of course it was reliable). If I could use one operating system free from most bugs and

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 4:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 5:35 PM, Nigel Horne wrote: On Monday 15 Nov 2004 9:23 pm, Bart Silverstrim wrote: Since I don't know any of the developers You can find our names in .../AUTHORS. -Bart -Nigel Well...I still don't *KNOW* you :-) Nice to kinda sorta meet you though. You and the rest of

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andother social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Bart Silverstrim
On Nov 15, 2004, at 4:44 PM, Dave Goodrich wrote: Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through as

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Kelson
Bart Silverstrim wrote: I find it interesting though that I've yet to hear from anyone commenting on my proposal to create a filter that will extract and convert all emails into pure text, or reformat it so only certain things can get through as an attachment with a pure text message so it

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Matt
Thanks, but the point of my question was that I wanted to know whether there are more social engineering signature in the database than just phishing ones. Getting back to the somewhat original question, if you download the signatures.pdf from the Clam website, that gives you a

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Ken Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Knowing two freinds that have responded to phising emails and what it took afterwards to correct the problem . they would beg you to remove the possability of this threat. Bit Fuzzy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sorry, but I personally know 7 people who

RE: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing and other social engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Julian Mehnle
Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks, but the point of my question was that I wanted to know whether there are more social engineering signature in the database than just phishing ones. Getting back to the somewhat original question, if you download the signatures.pdf from the

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread Todd Lyons
John Jolet wanted us to know: I have to laugh and slap my knee here...as all the email I get from friends and acquaintances that use hotmail end up sending me pure html.not multipart mime with a text and html partJUST html. Very annoying when saving the message as text or using mutt.

Re: [Clamav-users] ClamAV should not try to detect phishing andothersocial engineering attacks

2004-11-15 Thread John Jolet
yup. very little email needs to be html. On Monday 15 November 2004 7:43 pm, Todd Lyons wrote: John Jolet wanted us to know: I have to laugh and slap my knee here...as all the email I get from friends and acquaintances that use hotmail end up sending me pure html.not multipart mime with