Tinkerphones Stammtisch Pfalz

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi all,
there is a small group of us who think about having a "Stammisch Pfalz" in 
August, maybe on 20th.

Location is to be defined in the area between Pirmasens, Kaiserslautern, 
Landau, Grünstadt.

Please let us know if you are interested to attend so that we can better 
estimate
participation and think about a nice location.

BR,
Nikolaus


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1st notice: Letux/GTA04 Kernel- and Userspace-Hacking weekend

[Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi all,
we (OpenPhoenux community Munich) are organizing a kernel- and user-space
hacking weekend to improve the Letux/GTA04 kernel and to make progress on
matching QtMoko with newer kernels and latest Debian.

This workshop is planned to have two groups:

a) Kernel - to work on the known (and new) issues [1], mainly power management,
but also others (e.g. Camera, Audio for GSM/FM/Bluetooth). The idea is to close
as many issues as possible.

b) QtMoko [2] - update the basis to Debian Jessie, make it compile,
add fixes so that we can use the latest kernels, make new packages.

The workshop location will be in Munich (Germany) area (details to be defined).
Date is also to be defined so that it fits for the participants, but the target 
is some
Saturday+Sunday in spring 2016.

We have a budget to support travel expenses.

Participation will be limited in the total number of people. I think a good 
group
size will be ca. 5 developers each. More is not productive and less is not 
enough
breadth of different experience.

If you think you can and want to participate and actively contribute, please 
apply
by a short mail to me, telling what you want to do and which expertise you have
and if you need support with travel expenses.

If you don't, but know somebody who could be interested and helpful, please
forward this e-mail.

Let's hope this helps to bring our community forward and fix some issues we
want to see solved for a long time.

BR and thanks,
Nikolaus


[1]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/issues/
[2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-qtmoko/
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OpenPhoenux Stammtisch München

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
just in case you are not aware of and subscribed to the special 
„Stammtisch“-list,
here the announcement that the next (german language) „Stammtisch“ in Munich is 
in
its planning phase:

http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/stammtisch/2015-August/90.html

Please register yourself and add your preferred day/date.

BR,
Nikolaus


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[ANN]: decided to start production for GTA04A5 boards

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
we finally decided to start the production of the GTA04A5 [1] boards and use 
the ~40 plastic cases we
have recently received to also build a batch of complete Letux 2804 [2] 
devices. And we have secured
a set of GTM601W modem modules.

Details will follow.

Thanks for your patience. Stay tuned. It will pay off!

BR,
Nikolaus

Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/goldelico

[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5
[2]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Complete
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Re: [Gta04-owner] OpenPhoenux and GTA04 at CCCamp?

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 24.07.2015 um 18:53 schrieb Paul Kocialkowski :

> Next month, CCCamp will take place near Berlin, Germany.
> The event is a great occasion to highlight the GTA04 project and our
> OpenPhoenux community at large. Neo900 folks already plan on attending
> and will organize a Neo village:
> https://events.ccc.de/camp/2015/wiki/Village:Neo
> 
> I will also attend to represent Replicant (and hopefully get a lightning
> talk about it, if not a self-organized session).

Good!

> In addition to
> presenting the project and the various freedom and
> privacy/security-related issues in mobile devices, I would also like to
> try and get new people to join-in.
> 
> Nikolaus, do you plan on having some OpenPhoenux and GTA04
> representation at camp besides Neo900?

I didn’t know about this event until some weeks ago - and I personally
have a schedule conflict… And I am not a fan of outdoor camping either :)

> Also, my GTA04 still has a broken
> GPS connector, so I thought perhaps it would be the right time to see
> about it and get it fixed (Joerg already mentioned he would bring some
> soldering tools, too).

Yes, that would have been a good occasion. But you can also send it to me
(any time you like) and I can return it next day (sometimes same day). It
needs around 10 minutes to repair if the person knows how to do it quickly
and reliable.

> 
> I would be very happy to meet members of the community there and talk
> about the future of Replicant on the OpenPhoenux projects and community!

Thanks for making us aware!

I am sure that some members of our community are going there. Maybe they
can share their plans and reply to this mail?

BR,
Nikolaus


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Linux gta04 4.1.0-rc4-gta04+ #1096 SMP Tue May 19 13:58:31 CEST 2015 armv7l GNU/Linux

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

We are proud to have this kernel available for testing [1].

What is new:
* we have fixed a NULL pointer issue in the bq27x00 driver which was introduced 
by 4.1-rc1
* we are preparing for DT support of the camera module; the OMAP3 ISP (Image 
Signal Processor) should already be configured correctly
* everything else that is new with 4.1 and comes to us without big efforts

Some things we are still working on:
* get the GPS chip power managed on open(“/dev/ttyO1”). Technically it works 
since 2 years, but we need to find a solution that is accepted by upstream 
maintainers.
* some tweaks to the touch screen driver are needed to make it more general 
(and useable for Replicant)
* camera
* twl4030 battery driver (fallback for devices like L3704 where hdq is n/a)
* general power management
* sound (we still need to implement voice hardware routing, and headset 
detection)

Please give it a try (it also runs on BeagleBoard/XM, BeagleBone Black or 
PandaBoard ES).

As usual, collaboration is welcome and/or donations [2] to support this work.

And please follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/goldelico

BR and thanks,
Nikolaus

[1]: 
http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/4.1-rc4
[2]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ADonation
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Re: Staus update GTA04A5

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 12.05.2015 um 11:18 schrieb NeilBrown :

> On Mon, 11 May 2015 09:37:07 +0200 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> you may wonder what is going on with this project. Did it turn into a black 
>> hole? Or
>> did someone do a “rm -rf /“ :)
>> 
>> No, nothing of that. Therefore, I think we owe you some short status update 
>> on this project.
>> 
>> There hasn’t been much to report in the last months, but now we have several 
>> news
>> within some days.
>> 
>> 1. I have checked again and we can still get the GTM601W, but the 
>> distributor says
>>the risk is high that OPTION declares EOL any time and in that case we 
>> would have
>>to make an order of at least 3000 units so that they restart production 
>> just for us.
>> 
>>   This means we must secure these modules for us now, since there is no 
>> replacement
>>   that easily fits into the space constraints of the GTA04 (resp. GTA01/02 
>> board).
>> 
>>   Cinterion modules would be nice since they are planned for the Pyra and 
>> the Neo900,
>>   but they are approx. 10% too big.
>> 
>> 2. we see some difficulties in getting the W2SG0084 GPS module, but that is 
>> some
>>paperwork the distributor has to do with Wi2Wi.
>> 
>>   Nevertheless, this is also a risk candidate for EOL because only one 
>> distributor shows
>>   stock.
>> 
>> 3. There are also good news:
>>we participate in the risk buy of Samsung 1GB RAM+512MB NAND chips (as
>>planned for the Neo900). So the GAT04A5 gets twice as much RAM :)
>> 
>>This chip has already been tested by reworking a BeagleBoard XM and 
>> modifying
>>the boot loader (kernel didn’t find the NAND yet, but U-Boot did. This is 
>> a problem
>>that will jointly be fixed with the Neo900 software team).
>> 
>> 4. Production: we still are a little away from the quorum of 100 preorders 
>> (at the
>>moment of this writing we have estimated approx. half = 45 units). So it 
>> is still
>>not possible to make final decisions about production dates and final 
>> pricing.
>> 
>>So we need to get a little more support for our project. If you have 
>> ideas, please
>>let us know or start activities. Many small activities are as good as a 
>> big one!
>>And we know that this is a niche product that requires an existing 
>> GTA01/02
>>device. So it is not possible to “attract the masses”. We must find and 
>> convince
>>the previous GTA01/02 owners whose devices are collecting dust. There had 
>> been
>>produced ca. 15k such devices so that we just need another 1/3% or in 
>> other
>>words only 1 out of 300 GTA02 owners needs to decide for a GTA04A5.
>> 
>> 5. Regarding the risk buy of the GTM601W, RAM chips and W2SG0084, I plan to
>>take the budget (~5100 EUR) that we already have collected.
>> 
>>This will transform the vouchers into ownership of components. So it has 
>> the
>>consequence that we can’t refund in money (cash, bank transfer) any more, 
>> but
>>only in unused hardware components (i.e. 100 EUR ~ 1*GTM601+1*RAM+1*GPS)…
>> 
>>For future preorder vouchers you would also buy such a component set 
>> (which we
>>would keep in safe warehouse of course) until we can really build the 
>> whole devices.
>> 
>> 
>> So quite some news and I would be happy if we can fill up the missing 
>> preorders [1]
>> sooner than later so that we can start production. Please think about 
>> securing your
>> set of components for the last production batch of the most open smartphone 
>> platform
>> that we already have.
>> 
> 
> I have been thinking about ordering a GTA04A5, but there is one barrier.
> I need to be confident that it can draw less than 10mA in standby.

> Currently the best we have seen with GTA04A3,4 is about 20mA (and 40mA on
> Linux 4.0, but that must be a software issue).
> 
> This is probably a software issue, but until it's actually been demonstrated
> that the hardware can sit in standby using under 10mA, I cannot be certain.

There will be >= 2 changes that affect the standby current:
a) the 26 MHz oscillator is not always on any more
b) IrDA receiver and RS232 level shifters can be turned on/off separately (on 
A3/A4 either one is always on)
c) the HMC5883l and ITG3200 will likely be replaced by newer Bosch sensors

If you know something else which could affect standby current, please let me 
know.

Ah, a new unknown is the new SAMSUNG RAM/NAND chip. There we have no data sheet
but know that it is used in the N9.

> It’s all very frustrating...

At least for me it is fun and a playground to learn :)

BR,
Nikolaus


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Staus update GTA04A5

[Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi all,
you may wonder what is going on with this project. Did it turn into a black 
hole? Or
did someone do a “rm -rf /“ :)

No, nothing of that. Therefore, I think we owe you some short status update on 
this project.

There hasn’t been much to report in the last months, but now we have several 
news
within some days.

1. I have checked again and we can still get the GTM601W, but the distributor 
says
the risk is high that OPTION declares EOL any time and in that case we 
would have
to make an order of at least 3000 units so that they restart production 
just for us.

   This means we must secure these modules for us now, since there is no 
replacement
   that easily fits into the space constraints of the GTA04 (resp. GTA01/02 
board).

   Cinterion modules would be nice since they are planned for the Pyra and the 
Neo900,
   but they are approx. 10% too big.

2. we see some difficulties in getting the W2SG0084 GPS module, but that is some
paperwork the distributor has to do with Wi2Wi.

   Nevertheless, this is also a risk candidate for EOL because only one 
distributor shows
   stock.

3. There are also good news:
we participate in the risk buy of Samsung 1GB RAM+512MB NAND chips (as
planned for the Neo900). So the GAT04A5 gets twice as much RAM :)

This chip has already been tested by reworking a BeagleBoard XM and 
modifying
the boot loader (kernel didn’t find the NAND yet, but U-Boot did. This is a 
problem
that will jointly be fixed with the Neo900 software team).

4. Production: we still are a little away from the quorum of 100 preorders (at 
the
moment of this writing we have estimated approx. half = 45 units). So it is 
still
not possible to make final decisions about production dates and final 
pricing.

So we need to get a little more support for our project. If you have ideas, 
please
let us know or start activities. Many small activities are as good as a big 
one!
And we know that this is a niche product that requires an existing GTA01/02
device. So it is not possible to “attract the masses”. We must find and 
convince
the previous GTA01/02 owners whose devices are collecting dust. There had 
been
produced ca. 15k such devices so that we just need another 1/3% or in other
words only 1 out of 300 GTA02 owners needs to decide for a GTA04A5.

5. Regarding the risk buy of the GTM601W, RAM chips and W2SG0084, I plan to
take the budget (~5100 EUR) that we already have collected.

This will transform the vouchers into ownership of components. So it has the
consequence that we can’t refund in money (cash, bank transfer) any more, 
but
only in unused hardware components (i.e. 100 EUR ~ 1*GTM601+1*RAM+1*GPS)…

For future preorder vouchers you would also buy such a component set (which 
we
would keep in safe warehouse of course) until we can really build the whole 
devices.


So quite some news and I would be happy if we can fill up the missing preorders 
[1]
sooner than later so that we can start production. Please think about securing 
your
set of components for the last production batch of the most open smartphone 
platform
that we already have.

BR and thanks for continued support,
Nikolaus Schaller

[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 21.03.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Matthias Apitz :

> El día Saturday, March 21, 2015 a las 12:02:13PM +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus 
> Schaller escribió:
> 
>> 
>> Am 20.03.2015 um 21:40 schrieb Norayr Chilingarian :
>> 
>>> meanwhile, let's not forget that Ubuntu Touch can be ported to thus
>>> installed on GTA04/5 board.
>> 
>> Yes, you are right! Sometimes we simply don’t see the obvious…
>> 
>> Goldelico would support such a port as good as possible.
>> 
>> What do you need?
> 
> Well, we could start with a mailing list for techical(!) interested
> folks, like 
> 
> ubuntuphone-port...@lists.openmoko.org
> or
> ubuntuphone-port...@goldelico.com

Here it is (I have added a “project” and renamed it a little - but it is not 
restricted to “gta04”):

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-ubuntu-touch/
http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/gta04-ubuntu-touch

Please subscribe and use…

> 
> or something like such a name to express that the intention is not for
> users without technical background/developers.
> 
> Thx
> 
>   matthias
> 
> -- 
> Matthias Apitz, g...@unixarea.de, http://www.unixarea.de/ +49-170-4527211
> "Wenn der Mensch von den Umständen gebildet wird, so muß man die Umstände 
> menschlich bilden."
> "Si el hombre es formado por las circunstancias entonces es necesario formar 
> humanamente
> las circunstancias", Karl Marx in Die heilige Familie / La sagrada familia


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 20.03.2015 um 21:40 schrieb Norayr Chilingarian :

> meanwhile, let's not forget that Ubuntu Touch can be ported to thus
> installed on GTA04/5 board.

Yes, you are right! Sometimes we simply don’t see the obvious…

Goldelico would support such a port as good as possible.

What do you need?

BR,
Nikolaus


> 
> 03/19/15 11:31 -ին Matthias Apitzը գրել է.
>> El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió:
>> 
>>> I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!
>> 
>> Hi Ed,
>> 
>> Could you please send me a signal when yours arrive. I ordered mine on
>> March 12 and have already the discount on my creditcard, but no device
>> yet :-)
>> 
>> Do you know any good mailing list or forum (read: for tech people) to 
>> interchange
>> questions and test results etc.?
>> 
>> Thx
>> 
>>  matthias
>> 
> 
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 16.03.2015 um 15:38 schrieb Alfa21-mobile :

> 
> 
> Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from 
> the beginning (and therefore still is) to give
> those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer 
> peripherals.
> 
> Like a replacement motor for an old car.
> 
> 
> 
> I know, and also for me it's interesting a new engine for an old car, but you 
> will never exit from the 1&2 statement if new users will remain cut off from 
> the game, imho.
> 
> your solution is directed only to a subset of older users and this can hardly 
> embrace a wide audience that allows to lower the final prices
> 
> from my pov, you are cutting out both:
> - fresh users, potentially interested in getting a real open phone
> - old users, interested in getting an open phone competitive on price

It looks as if you are thinking along a “one solution fits everyone” strategy.

GTA04A5 is a solution for some group which is completely feasible, no dream, no 
vapourware.
It is a tested design and just needs to be financed to be produced.

Of course it does not make everybody happy.

But it does also not exclude to have something different (GTA05…) in the 
future. But it must be clear
that a GTA05 needs a lot of work, prefinancing of engineering and time (expect 
> 1 year to develop
from scratch including injection moulds). So this also does not make everyone 
happy.

And it is much less lilkely to happen at all because it needs this prefinancing 
stuff…

Therefore we are not cutting out anyone - I am simply honest not to promise the
impossible (competitive price and new and immediately available). I prefer to 
say
what is possible and reachable. Like a low hanging fruit: GTA04A5.

> 
>  
> > -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
> > neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5
> >
> > -2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
> > or neo900
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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
I had not planned to make it a statement-reply session, but it has converted 
into one :)

Am 16.03.2015 um 14:47 schrieb Alfa21-mobile :

> Hi *,
> 
> I think it’s difficult to gain interest of new users if a new user must buy 
> an old casing first of being able to use the new hardware

> 
> also, old casings are a limited resource and are awful to look compared to 
> newer and slimmer styles

Well, that is not the goal of the GTA04A5 project. It was focussed right from 
the beginning (and therefore still is) to give
those who already have a GTA02 a much more powerful processor and some newer 
peripherals.

Like a replacement motor for an old car.

> moreover the old casings eventually need to be modified (drilled) by the 
> final user to host the camera
> 
> 
> just my 2cents,
> A21

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 16.03.2015 um 13:40 schrieb Neal H. Walfield :

> At Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:43:51 +0100,
> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 
>> there is no 1.
>> 
>> What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of
>> buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down
>> (higher quantity buyer).
> 
> My impression of the GTA04 marketing message is: the more people who
> buy, the cheaper the phone will be!  

> Unfortunately, it hasn't been
> very clear to me how much cheaper.  I suspect that the same is true
> for other people, particularly those who are not following the project
> as closely as I have.
> 
> If I knew that the GTA04 could be produced for 300 Euro if say, 2000,
> were produced, that could help me convince other people.  Of course,
> if someone is willing to buy today, they might not be willing to wait
> a year.

Well, there is a rough indication 
http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5

• the final price is expected to be (incl. 19% German VAT)
• 599 EUR if we reach 100 production units
• 549 EUR if we reach 200 production units
• 499 EUR if we reach 500 production units
   but we will try everything to get below this target! But
   EUR/USD exchange rate development is beyond our control

> 
> One way around this is to use the strategy that kickstarter uses: only
> fund it if a threshold is reached.

We also have that. The threshold is 100 units preordered (where each
pre-order voucher at 100 EUR or above counts for one unit). This is equivalent
to a threshold of 1 EUR which could be used to secure some critical
components (e.g. 3G Modem, memory chips, WiFi module).

If we don’t reach this threshold before the 3G modem really becomes 
unobtainable,
the campaign ends unfunded. We just don’t have a fixed date for the campaign.

> Just a thought…

Any thought is always welcome!

Thanks,
Nikolaus


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Ed,

Am 16.03.2015 um 09:58 schrieb Ed Kapitein :

>> <
>> Interesting.
>> 
>> Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
>> GTA04A5?
>> 
>> Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…
>> 
>> I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
>> March 2015.
>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
> 
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> A couple of things made me decide to buy the ubuntu phone.

thanks!

> 
> -1 The price. for me it is afordable at 170 euro vs +/- 600 euro for a
> neo900 and slightly less for the GTA04A5
> 
> -2 The device is in "mass" production, compared to the volumes of GTA04
> or neo900

well, this is the simple hen&egg situation that we face for some years.

For our community products we have: because 1, there is no 2 and because 2 
there is no 1.

What makes the difference? Some investor (Ubuntu) did cover the risk of
buying the first set of thousands of eggs and was able to get the price down
(higher quantity buyer).

They can, because Ubuntu is not only a free (as in free beer) OS but Canonical
sells maintenance services (ubuntu advantage) to get the money to run
their operations.

This type of services is something our community lacks. And is even beyond the
openmoko approach (because it focusses on the client side while the money is
with servers, clouds and content).

> 
> -3 Development is done by a huge team, with a long track record in
> development.

Well, the team here was big - but has become smaller and smaller.

I just wonder if they have a longer track record than the Openmoko
community.

Hm. Makes me think about:
* would people be interested in a real maintained Openmoko distribution
* combining everything we have (kernel, Replicant, QtMoko and other choices)
* not only for Openmoko devices but others as well to get a broader audience
* regularily maintained by fixed team
* those who spend let’s say 5 EUR / month get bug fixes and updates first


> -4 Using old components from the GTA02 to build a GTA04 will get me a
> "new" phone with and 8 year old screen, 8 year old battery, 8 year old
> case etc.

This is mostly a consequence of 1 and 2. A GTA05 could be much more
modern and made out of all-new components. But because of 1 and 2 there
is no GTA05.

> 
> But i really appreciate what all members from the gta02 community have
> done in the past and are still doing today!
> 
> Big thanks from me.
> Ed

Big thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Our key problem is that we don’t have a big budget to spend for a new GTA05
that can compete with others.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: OT: Ubuntu phone && HTML5 / QML

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 16.03.2015 um 09:00 schrieb Matthias Apitz :

> El día Monday, March 16, 2015 a las 08:46:09AM +0100, Ed Kapitein escribió:
> 
>>> What I'm asking me, and want to ask here: How thy 'paint' the picture
>>> from the apps written in HTML5 or QML to the display? Is this as well at
>>> the end of the day a X11 server or something else? It moves so smoothly.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> matthias
>> 
>> Hi Matthias,
>> 
>> As far as i can tell, they use mir [1] > [1] http://unity.ubuntu.com/mir/
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
>> I did order the ubuntu phone and can't wait to test it out!
> 
> Me too on March 12 in the flash sell. The money is already cut from my
> credit card, so there is hope that I will get one :-)

Interesting.

Makes me curious why you both spend money on that one instead of e.g. the 
GTA04A5?

Any answer is valid - and no need to be polite…

I am just curious to understand how people think and decide such things in 
March 2015.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: [Gta04-owner] GTA04A5 - status + FAQ

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 13.02.2015 um 17:32 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak :

> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for this great follow-up! I have one question:
> 
> On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>  wrote:
>> And yes, this funding campaign runs very slowly. Since it is a very special 
>> product
>> for a very special target group. Only GTA02 (and GTA01) owners have benefit
>> from it.
> 
> What about case kits? I remember there was some effort to make it
> possible to replace old GTA02 parts with easier to obtain equivalents,
> so using GTA04 board in self-made case (like 3D printed one) would be
> possible. What's the situation right now?

To go into detail the situation is this:

In addition to the naked motherboard these parts from a GTA01/02 are reused:
a) case (3 black plastic parts plus white speaker box)
b) vibramotor
c) earpiece speaker
d) handsfree/music speaker(s)
e) display panel
f) battery
g) GSM antenna
h) active GPS antenna module

Replacements are
a) there are several STL designs available, even a wooden case looks feasible.
b) we will solder a small(er) vibramotor on the GTA04A5 board, so that it does 
not longer need to be reused.
c) here, we did have a replacement but it is now end of life. We have a 
supplier and catalog for other replacements.
d) they were easily available at Mouser until last summer. So we just have ~25 
pieces left over [1]. But it could be possible to find them on Alibaba.
e) here we have ca. 60 units [2] - and no idea if anyone has stock for more.
f) we still have some stock and maybe other of the well known Openmoko 
distributors as well.
g) here we want to offer a replacement (similar to the green “cucumber” in the 
photo [3]).
h) there are several GPS modules to choose from.

So in summary, we already offer some of the required components and will offer 
others.
But three key components (battery, handsfree speakers and display) are limited 
and w/o good replacments.

BR,
Nikolaus


[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ASpeaker
[2]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=LCD%20Module
[3]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ACase%20Kit
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Re: [Gta04-owner] GTA04A5 - status + FAQ

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 13.02.2015 um 07:54 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller :

> Hi,
> a short status update for this project:
> 
> 1. we have reached 42 preorders [1] - please continue to think about ordering 
> one as well…
> 2. we plan to integrate a new barometer sensor BME280 with integrated 
> humidity sensor
>so the GTA04A5 can be used as weather station - or for checking your room 
> climate (critical for your health and e.g. a piano)
> 3. as announced this week, Replicant is working really well and Lukas told me 
> yesterday that he already installed WhatsApp
> 
> So we only need to upgrade hardware to catch up a little to Nexus 6 in 
> functionality…
> But the Nexus still has to catch up in openness and hardware documentation :)
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
> 
> [1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5

I have reveived some questions off-list where I would like to share the answers:

> Are you seriously considering to upgrade hardware? Very cool.

Yes, we constantly monitor what new interesting chips are coming that can be
integrated at low risk. Replacing the BMP085 (which by the way is no longer in
production) is just wiring up 8 pins to a different package.

And, we have to do that anyways since a handful of chips is no longer available
and *must* be replaced. I did give a presentation on OHSW about this topic.

But we have to be careful, since “big” changes (e.g. bigger display, quad-core 
CPU,
LTE) are not possible. They introduce too much risk that the whole board does 
not
work and some do not fit into the existing Openmoko plastic cases.
And they need too much work time to be integrated.

It is like mature software with an architecture designed some years ago that you
touch only if it is easy to touch and does not introduce regressions in 
unexpected
areas. I.e. changing the color or text of a button is ok, changing the menu 
structure
isn't :)

> Is there a recording of your OHSW talk?


OHSW: http://www.ohsw.de
Video: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktugrICZMKI&list=PL-s0IumBit8Mofxj0Fn2kH6RB9VtnKS4KVideo
Slides: 
http://download.goldelico.com/default/Presentations/20141129%20OHSW/3%20GTA04A5%20Project%20Status.pdf

> What about this 5000€ or 1€ target?


This target is not really comparable to a kickstarter limit. It is more thought 
as
an indicator to give a more imaginable (at least I hope) view on the project 
funding
status.

The real target we have is to get 100 preorders (vouchers) at 100 € each. This
is equivalent to a 1€ sum of preorders.

Only if we have reached that, we can seriously go to the production facility and
ask them to give us a quotation (it is some heavy unpaid work for them and I 
don’t
want to go to them just for fun). Only then, we know the real price of building
100 units.

We will then announce the price and ask to pay the difference between the 
voucher
and the final price. If nobody cancels his voucher, we can then start the 
production.

There is one aspect which could make us the 1€ a real goal.

I fear that we do not have much time left over to buy the OPTION GTM601W
3G modules. They are in production for quite a while, but there is no successor.

And as soon as OPTION is no longer able to buy some component inside the
module, they will stop production (maybe they already have stopped and we
don’t know yet). Then we only can buy what is still in some stock. Maybe at 
rising
price. Or we come too late and they say: sorry, we are sold out.

And the OPTION module is one of the deal-breaker components. If we can’t buy
it any more there is no chance to redesign the GTA04A5 board for a replacement
component. Other modules are thicker or bigger - and need a careful design-in
process.

So w/o GTM601 (or DM3730 or memory chip) there can be no GTA04A5. 

In that case, we simply refund the preorder vouchers.

So an option would be to use these vouchers to buy OPTION (pun unintended :)
GTM601W modules.

Then, in case of the project never succeeds, we would not refund the money,
but could send you the module in case the project fails to reach 100 units for
production.

This would transform the voucher for a GTA04A5 into a voucher for a GTM601W
module and a separate one for a GTA04A5 production run later.

But it is too early to really do that step since we just have 42. If we had 75, 
I would
say that we do this risk purchase.

> The campaign is already running for a while and running very slowly.
> Will it ever succeed? When will it considered to be failed?


Well, I don’t know since my crystal ball doesn’t tell that.

And yes, this funding campaign runs very slowly. Since it is a very special 
product
for a very special target group. Only GTA02 (and GTA01) owners have benefit
from it. And since we all are here on these lists, it does not make sense to 
start
a Kickstarter/IndieGoGo for the broad public to get more interested people. And,
there is no benefit of making it a co

GTA04A5 - status

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
a short status update for this project:

1. we have reached 42 preorders [1] - please continue to think about ordering 
one as well…
2. we plan to integrate a new barometer sensor BME280 with integrated humidity 
sensor
so the GTA04A5 can be used as weather station - or for checking your room 
climate (critical for your health and e.g. a piano)
3. as announced this week, Replicant is working really well and Lukas told me 
yesterday that he already installed WhatsApp

So we only need to upgrade hardware to catch up a little to Nexus 6 in 
functionality…
But the Nexus still has to catch up in openness and hardware documentation :)

BR,
Nikolaus


[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5
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ANN 2: new gta04-makesd for preparing bootable SD cards

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
as written in the 3.19.0-kernel announcement, we now support more and more
different hardware devices by the kernel.

To simplify creating bootable SD cards for such a plethora of devices,
there is also a new makesd script. No longer one for each device, doing
dirty tricks, but a generic one that knows how to create single and multi-
partiton images by pulling the components from http://downloads.goldelico.com

It is easily controlled by command line arguments allowing to choose
the version of a package to be installed, the device it should run on,
how many partitions should be filled with what. It is possible to configure
individually for each partition which x-loader and u-boot, which kernel,
which device trees which modules and which root file system is to be installed.

Some examples:

DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd -v latest-beta gta04  — production image (for unbricking, 
u-boot upgrade) for the GTA04 (Letux 2804) with Debian/LXDE using variant 
‘latest-beta’
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd gta04b2  — same for GTA04b2 (Letux 3704)
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd bb  — image for the BeagleBoard (classic or XM) with 
Debian/LXDE
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd bbb  — image for the BeagleBone Black with Debian/LXDE
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd pyra  — same for OMAP5432EVM (Pyra prototype)
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd replicant  —  latest (stable) replicant (universal image 
boots on L2804, L3704, L7004)
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd -v unstable replicant  —  latest (unstable) replicant 
(boots on L2804, L3704, L7004)
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd all — make a 4-system (Debian, QtMoko, Replicant, 
QuantumSTEP) multi-partition image where you can choose the system through the 
boot loader menu (boots on L2804, L3704, L7004)
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd -v unstable pyra -F -v latest replicant — use unstable 
kernel and replace the Debian/LXDE in partition 2 with latest replicant (boots 
up to the root@android:/ # prompt) for the OMAP5432EVM
DEV=/dev/sdc ./makesd -v unstable openpandora  — the current working image for 
the OpenPandora (put into left slot and boot through boot menu)

More information about installation and examples can be found at

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-makesd/

Please note that a new consistent “latest” release is due, but not yet tested,
so some of the commands (without specifying -v unstable or -v latest-beta)
may fail because they try to pull files that are not yet available in the 
“latest”
as of today..

So I hope that we are doing something you appreciate and find useful
and maybe would like to support either through [1] or by testing, reporting
bugs and submitting patches.

We really appreciate your feedback, since we don’t find every bug and
flaw - and we always understand the bad and incomplete documentation [2]
we have written…

BR,
Nikolaus

[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ADonation
[2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-makesd/


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ANN 1: gta04-kernel 3.19.0

[Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
we have upgraded the gta04-kernel to 3.19.0 which by itself does not change
much or fix significant issues, but we have achieved something we think is
awesome:

The kernel now also runs on the OMAP3530 based OpenPandora!

We did just develop and debug a new device tree. Not everything is working
yet, but it is now in a shape where we think we can announce it.

The really interesting fact will be that for the first time we have a common
kernel over several OMAP based open hardware projects: it supports the
GTA04 devices, the Beagle- and PandaBoard, the old OpenMoko-Beagle-Hybrid,
the OpenPandora and will also support the new OMAP5 Pyra handheld and
whatever might come in the future (GTA04A5?).

And as the really latest entry is the BeagleBone Black.

The same kernel binary. The same binary kernel modules, the same root file
system. Just loading a different device tree file and some small patches for
the root file system is sufficient. Even sharing a SD card is possible (within
some limitations). Something we are used to from the x86 world.
Just replace the motherboard, plug in the old hard disk and boot again.

And, we can mix this kernel with different root file systems: Debian,
Replicant, QtMoko (if we get it compiled…), QuantumSTEP (if we finish it
sometime), others to be defined.

So we are close to transforming “gta04” into a multiple-choice-distribution
for different hardware.

Here is a list of the features supported by this kernel on the different 
devices:

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/page/Platforms/

And, we are now at the forefront of the kernel development, since we
regularily merge with linus/master. By upstreaming our changes, we hope
that in some near future all these devices will be fully supported
directly by kernel.org.

So I hope that we are doing something you appreciate and find useful
and perhaps would like to support either through [1] or by testing, reporting
bugs and submitting patches.

We really appreciate your feedback, since we don’t find every bug and
flaw - and we always understand the bad and incomplete documentation [2]
we have written…

BR,
Nikolaus

[1]: http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ADonation
[2]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/


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Re: Where Can I Get A GTA04 Camera?

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Alexander,

Am 31.12.2014 um 01:09 schrieb Alexander .S.T. Ross 
:

> is the optional camera fully supported now? according to the manual it
> isn’t. so what is it now?

The status is that it is supported by the 3.12.7 kernel, but not optimized (the 
position of the image is shifted).
The newer kernels (3.18) do not yet support the camera since the OMAP3 Image 
Processor (ISP) does not have
Device Tree support yet and the camera module driver has not been adjusted to 
recent kernel API changes.

So if you want to help to get it work on 3.19-rc you are very welcome to the 
gta04-kernel project [1].

BR and have a nice new year,
Nikolaus

[1]: http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/


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Re: Free gta02

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 02.12.2014 um 20:19 schrieb Philip Rhoades :

> People,
> 
> I have not been using this for a while - happy to give it to a more useful 
> home if someone is prepared to pay for postage.

Maybe also something to consider is to give it a new life through a new 
motherboard:

http://download.goldelico.com/default/Presentations/20141129%20OHSW/3%20GTA04A5%20Project%20Status.pdf

BR,
Nikolaus


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Community Event: OHSW in Munich

[Dr . H . Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
with just 4 weeks left to our yearly OHSW even in Munich, planning
is getting on speed.

Lukas has updated and translated the web page to english since
we welcome participants from all over the world.

For details, please go here:

http://www.ohsw.de

And, it is still time to propose presentations and workshops, since
nothing has been decided (except location and date/time).

Please subscribe to the special mailing list to stay informed and
register yourself as a participant through the Doodle.

BR,
Nikolaus


See also:

http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/attachments/20141026/220cf389/attachment-0001.pdf



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[Community] 6th OpenPhoenux Workshop

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Invitation for Participation Call for Presentations and Sessions
6th public OpenPhoenux Hard and Software Workshop

29.11.-30.11.2014, 9:30-18:00
TUM Campus Garching, „Mathematik & Informatik“

More details here:

http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/attachments/20141002/3d5b3bfa/attachment-0001.pdf


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Re: [Gta04-owner] Special offer Letux 3704

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Reminder!

Please think about more interesting project ideas for this device!

And the offer is serious - your price is ours (even if 1 € - if the idea is 
excellent).

BR,
Nikolaus

Am 31.07.2014 um 11:06 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller :

> Hi,
> as you probably know, the Letux 2804 has an "older brother", the Letux 3704 
> PDA.
> As some "older brothers" it is stronger, but a little clumsy and may not be as
> versatile as the "younger brother" :) But he has his strengths if needed...
> 
> http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Letux%203704
> 
> The L3704 units we offer from stock are sample units to evaluate customization
> options, and we are looking for more such customization projects.
> 
> A Replicant 4.2 image is running on it very well, so that you can easily
> develop (or have developed) and deploy applications to such devices. And
> since it doesn't have UMTS built in, the incomplete Hayes-RIL for 
> GTA04-Replicant
> is not a problem. 
> 
> To stimulate your ideas, we make a special summer holidays offer:
> 
> * please submit a project idea what you want to accomplish with such a device
> * and suggest a price for a (single) sample unit until 15th August.
> 
> Then, we will choose the most interesting projects from the submissions
> and you get the device at the price (plus shipment) you have suggested.
> 
> Submissions must go to: sa...@goldelico.com to be considered.
> 
> Please spread the word and invite interested people to this mailing list.
> 
> BR and have a nice summer,
> Nikolaus
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> gta04-ow...@goldelico.com
> http://lists.goldelico.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/gta04-owner


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Re: Indiephone.eu

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 28.06.2014 um 11:17 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

> Hi,
> there appears to be a new initiative which is taking all our values 
> (openness, freedom, community development, ) and casting it into a new name:
> 
>   http://indiephone.eu/faq/
> 
> "The most common answer to that is that no other product is currently 
> attempting to solve the problem as Indie Phone. That problem is how to 
> empower mere mortals to own their own data. This is why we are crafting a 
> beautiful experience that seamlessly combines hardware, software, and 
> services, to create a consumer smartphone to compete with the likes of iPhone 
> and Nexus."
> 
> e.g. compare to:
> 
>   http://www.openphoenux.org
> 
> "You are the owner:
>   • Be independent from big players.
>   • Make the system transparent, not the user.
>   • Keep control over your data."
> 
> Their claim that "there is no other product" appears to be completely 
> ignoring all our efforts of the past years. And I am not aware of any 
> relation with us.
> They even copied to use the word "indie/independent".
> 
> Does anyone know more about that?

I had in parallel contacted the indiephone.eu people and got an immediate 
answer that I think I should share, before the discussion is going wrong:

"Is there any chance you can make it to the summit? (Where are you based?)

Would love to be involved and I’m sure there is a lot we can learn from you and 
perhaps we can bring some of you in to help us out with the hardware side of 
things. Our approach is very different in that we are focussed entirely on 
building independent consumer products that are design-led from the business 
model down (holistic design). That said, I believe we share the same goals 
independence and giving the user control/owndership. Our user happens to be 
consumers whereas the user for OpenPhoenux, as far as I can tell, is 
enthusiasts with technical knowledge.

We should definitely be talking and helping each other out.

If you can make it to Brighton next week — please try and come on the 3rd for 
our private social meet-up prior to the event as I’d love the opportunity to 
chat one-on-one :)

(And, although the schedule is tight, I believe we can squeeze in just one demo 
during the eat, drink, and watch session at lunch if you want 3 minutes to show 
off what you guys are working on.)"

The summit mentioned appears to be this:

https://indietech.org/summit/

If anyone wants to and can go to Brighton next week, please let me know to 
arrange the 3 minutes with the summit organisers.

BR,
Nikolaus




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Indiephone.eu

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
there appears to be a new initiative which is taking all our values (openness, 
freedom, community development, ) and casting it into a new name:

http://indiephone.eu/faq/

"The most common answer to that is that no other product is currently 
attempting to solve the problem as Indie Phone. That problem is how to empower 
mere mortals to own their own data. This is why we are crafting a beautiful 
experience that seamlessly combines hardware, software, and services, to create 
a consumer smartphone to compete with the likes of iPhone and Nexus."

e.g. compare to:

http://www.openphoenux.org

"You are the owner:
• Be independent from big players.
• Make the system transparent, not the user.
• Keep control over your data."

Their claim that "there is no other product" appears to be completely ignoring 
all our efforts of the past years. And I am not aware of any relation with us.
They even copied to use the word "indie/independent".

Does anyone know more about that?

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: ping

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

We have some offers:

* GTA04A5 fund raising
* GTA02, used (with voucher for GTA04A5)
* Letux 3704
* replacement display
* ZAGG invisible shield for Openmoko
* Letux 400 minibook

For details see http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php

Nikolaus


Am 17.06.2014 um 08:26 schrieb Christoph Pulster :

> Anybody out there ? :-)
> 
> 
> May I put some life in this list with my stock / offer list:
> 
> GTA02, new, 299 eur
> GTA02, used, 199 eur
> Wikireader, 29 eur
> 
> battery, original&new, 9 eur
> power adapter, 9 eur
> Car holder, 5 eur
> leather case, 29 eur
> GPS antenna, 15 eur
> link cable, 4 eur
> spares display, 49 eur
> 
> 
> FREE Items for any order: pouch, headset, printed manual, display  
> protection, debug board
> 
> more infos in my tiny shop www.pulster.eu
> 
> 
> 
> to all remaining Openmoko'ianian, have a nice summer time !
> 
> Christoph
> 
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Re: GTA02 broken screen / What Nice Projekts to Do Without a Screen or Would Other Screens Work

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 12.05.2014 um 20:18 schrieb Ed Kapitein:

> On 05/10/2014 05:23 PM, Francesco De Vita wrote:
>>> If you think this is something you would like to try, please let me
>>> know, so i can provide you with the kernel and the rootfs image for you
>>> to flash.
>>> You need to write some scripts to fit everything to your needs, so i
>>> hope you have some scripting skills.
>> Probably I do not have the required skills but it is really interesting!
>> Have you already mention your work in the ML or in the Wiki? I'm sure it
>> deserves to be noted, I was looking for this kind of application from years.
>> 
>> Do you think your daemon could be easily integrated in QtMoko or other OS?
>> 
>> Best regards
>> Francesco
>> 
> Hi Francesco,
> 
> I did announce it a few years ago [1] and kept working on it, just for fun.
> By now the internals have changed, instead of 4 separate programs i have just 
> 2, the daemon and the optional gui.
> integrating it in QTMoko is possible, there are some instructions on the 
> website [2], although i did not try that with the current version.
> The Original Poster has no screen anymore, so integrating it with QTMoko 
> would be difficult for him.
> 
> You could give the old version a try, to see how it works for you, and if you 
> like it i can setup a download link for the latest and greatest version.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Ed

BTW,
I just want to mention that we still have some replacement screens in stock:

http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=LCD%20Module

BR,
NIkolaus
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Re: sensors on GTA04

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 02.04.2014 um 03:17 schrieb L. B.:

> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to play with the compass but the info from the documentation page 
> does not correspond with what I got on my phone (using qtmoko v58). The page 
> I use is that one:
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-kernel/page/Sensors/
> 
> In the 'compass' section there is a switch to enable/disable sampling. On my 
> phone there is a directory 
> /sys/bus/i2c/devices/i2c-2/2-001e/
> but there is no 'rate' file in there. Same applies for the gyroscope.
> Has anything been changed?

No. The kenrel doc is for the Goldelico kernels which were 2.6.32 some years 
ago and now reflect the drivers of 3.12 (ff).

QtMoko AFAIK uses a 3.7 kernel and since the /sys node names are not stable 
(and never will be) you might have to do a little guesswork and look into the 
3.7 kernel source code to find out how the driver works.

Hope this helps,
Nikolaus

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Re: Openmoko GTA06

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 02.04.2014 um 05:00 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon:

> Oh, and if someone were to build your April Fool's device for real, it
> should NOT be called GTA-anything, because it is not GSM-TI-AGPS.  I

The only reference to this secret naming convention is:

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-April/045297.html

"GTA stood for: Gsm;Ti;Agps"

This means it [b]stood[/b] for something. So it now can stand for anything :)

So GTA06 is "Good Tale in April number 06" :)

-- hns

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Re: Openmoko GTA06

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 01.04.2014 um 11:53 schrieb Neil Jerram:

> On 2014-04-01 10:26, shamsul hassan wrote:
>> April Fool :)
>> On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free
>>> and open phone with the following specs:
>>> * Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz)
>>> * 4GB RAM
>>> * 128 GB eMMC
>>> * LTE with free and open baseband
>>> * 5 inch full HD display
>>> * <100g
>>> * 4000 mAh battery
>>> * runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...)
>>> * shall cost less than Nexus 5
>>> Looks like some "dream machine" :)
>>> Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details?
> 
> Nice one.  I was fooled.

Obviously me too...

Nikolaus


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Openmoko GTA06

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi all,
I have received a rumor that somebody is working on a truly free and open phone 
with the following specs:

* Quad-Core Intel Z3770D (1.5 - 2.5 GHz) 
* 4GB RAM
* 128 GB eMMC
* LTE with free and open baseband
* 5 inch full HD display
* <100g
* 4000 mAh battery
* runs any x86 OS (i.e. Linux, Windows, Hackintosh, ...)
* shall cost less than Nexus 5

Looks like some "dream machine" :)

Since I don't know how to validate: does anyone know more details?

-- hns


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Re: GSM frequency bands in the USA

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 21.02.2014 um 18:51 schrieb Andrew Schenck:

> I can corroborate that report.  Bought my FR from Belgium, so I presume its 
> the 900/1800/1900 version, but I haven't found any way to verify that.  

1. remove battery cover
2. take out battery
3. look at serial number sticker under battery
4. here it either says GSM 900/1800/1900 or GSM 850/1800/1900

A copy of that sticker was also on the backside of the black box - if you still 
have it.

And: there is some chance that it will work on the wrong frequency band - 850 
vs. 900 MHz
isn't that different. The antenna may be some dB weaker if not optimally tuned 
and the transmitter
may draw more power to be heard by a base station.

-- hns

PS: another reason to think about a GTA04A5 - it is quadband
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Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 21.02.2014 um 10:36 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon:

>> I invite every =
>> remaining Openmoko GTA01/02 owner to cannibalize their device for a =
>> GTA04A5 motherboard.
> 
> There is a special place in Hell reserved for murderers of good free
> hardware like you.

ROFL - you are believing in Hell and you are talking about ethical categories...
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Re: GTA04 work (was: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI))

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 21.02.2014 um 10:54 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Fri, 2014-02-21 at 10:22 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> the kernel controls the power drain.
> 
> How has that been determined?

Please find the answer and tell us about the results.

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Re: GTA04 work (was: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI))

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 21.02.2014 um 10:03 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Fri, 2014-02-21 at 08:54 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> We ... are working on a 3.14 kernel and getting things mainline
> 
> Why?  The GTA04 is not usable as a daily phone. Why would you waste
> time on the kernel instead of working on the problems that prevent the
> board being used?  Why are you not spending this time working on the
> power drain?

Maybe you don't know or believe but the kernel controls the power drain.
So working on the kernel is working on the power drain...

Why do you waste time to write such mails instead of working on the
problems that prevent the board being used?  Why are you not spending
this time working on the power drain?

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Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 21.02.2014 um 08:26 schrieb Radek Polak:

> On Thursday, February 20, 2014 08:38:35 PM Michael Spacefalcon wrote:
>  
> > I am also convinced that the *real* reason why "Openmoko = failure" in
> > the general public's perception is precisely because of that NDA and
> > no one having broken it during the years when it mattered the most.
>  
> That's your point of view. Point of view of a firmware hacker.

and someone who wants to modify history to fit his argumentation.

> But there are other points of view. E.g. some people expect the phone ring 
> when friends/wife/customer calls. I had many phones before and 2 phones after 
> (N900 and now Jolla). None of them had any problems with SMS and telephony.  

Yes. This is one important factor. The other one was simply the economic hiccup 
end of 2008 why OM had to cancel the already developed GTA03 for simple 
economic reasons.

> 
> Openmoko is different - they never provided SW for reliable phone. Openmoko 
> never provided stable maintainable kernel

This is completely different with the GTA04 and why I invite every remaining 
Openmoko GTA01/02 owner to cannibalize their device for a GTA04A5 motherboard. 
Because that goal is within reach with the GTA04.

We have not reached the goal to get the 100% complete and optimal kernel from 
kernel.org or debian.org, but are working on a 3.14 kernel and getting things 
mainline (already with some success). And Replicant 4.2 is starting to work as 
well.

BTW: more support for that work from the community would speed up progress.

>  - instead they wasted their time on doing 4 ugly unusable distros while at 
> the time they had perfectly stable usable and working Qtopia.
>  
> And even 5 years after there is no good kernel for Freerunner. 2.6.29-rc 
> seems quite stable but the patch against mainline is horrible, besides it's 
> power management is worse then it could be. 2.6.39 has hardly nearly 
> unreproducible problem with resume.
>  
> Now we have free firmware which is cool, but the usablity of the phone hasnt 
> changed much.

Except for QtMoko which IMHO also should get more support to optimize the last 
2%.

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: Openmoko's downfall (was changing IMEI)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

> Of course it will never happen legally, but so what?  We can build it
> illegally instead.  


You are a Pied Piper of Hamelin.

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Re: IMEI changing kit for GTA02

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 19.02.2014 um 12:21 schrieb Christoph Pulster:

> Hi,
> 
> its nice to see, outlaw Michael's activities cause some life in this  
> list.
> 
> @Nikolaus: damn to UK laws, Michael is providing a tool to change IMEI,  
> no more no less. Besides legal issues, I miss the thanks to Michaels  
> effords.

For something that has no use case? And that I don't need?

> Of course he wrote a lot strange/non tolerable things in this  
> list in the past, but concerning technical effords, he was very  
> insistant and pushed it as far as writing a tool for easy change of IMEI  
> without having full access to NDA-infos.

The spirit of Openmoko is to *build* open devices. Because big companies
have the tendency to keep things closed.

And yes we know that we have quite some limitations to reach this goal.

But it was never about *breaking* into devices ignoring NDAs and laws.
For breaking into devices I can buy an iPhone and do a Jailbreak. Or any
Android device and enable root access.

I would applaud if he manages to build his own modem and firmware
from scratch (or based on OsmocomBB) *and* gets FCC and R&TTE and
whatever approvals are needed. That would better bring us forwards than
patching firmware for some legacy chipset (designed 10 years ago).

Or more useful would be if someone would write firmware for the Marvell
chipset or the PowerVR SGX from the scratch.

-- hns

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Re: IMEI changing kit for GTA02

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 19.02.2014 um 09:09 schrieb Christoph Pulster:

> Michael, this is great work !  AFAIK this is the first toolkit allowing  
> easy change of IMEI, impressive.
> The applaus is very limited here, it seems most people left are hardcore  
> Linux/FOSS geeks which do not understand the concept of your semi-legal  
> activities...

what is "semi-lega"l? Lawyers will tell you more...

According to http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/section/1 it is a full 
(not semi) offence with up to 5 years in prison in the UK.

And even possessing such a tool isn't allowed:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/section/2

So, please go to the UK and tell them that it is semi-legal.

In Germany it appears there is no special law but it is discussed (google for 
it) that it can be punished like replacing the licence plate
or the serial number of a car. So you have been warned.

Here some text in German written by a Lawyer (Status 2006 - may have changed): 
http://web.archive.org/web/20120427042949/http://www.heise.de/mobil/artikel/Rechtliches-zu-Eingriffen-ins-Handy-226035.html

-- hns
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Re: [Community] [Limesco-leden] OpenPhoenux@FOSDEM2014

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 06.02.2014 um 11:00 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

> Hello,
> 
> Is there some video or photo of this weekend ?

You will find them here:

https://fosdem.org/2014/news/2014-02-03-videos/

But as the maintainers say:

"The videos are not online yet, despite what you might think."


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Re: [Community] FOSDEM 2014 - meetup?

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 01.02.2014 um 21:45 schrieb Boudewijn:

> Hi list,
> 
> Who is in Brussels for FOSDEM? 
> 
> I'll be there tomorrow, at least part of the day at the OpenPandora stand. It 
> would be great to meet some people again. Anyone else around? 
> 

I am not in Brussels this year, but please say hello to Boudewijn!

And, please take a look at the new upcoming cousin of the GTA04 - the Pyra 
Handheld [1].
The prototypes shown there are running a Debian based on our GTA04-rootfs on 
OMAP5.

BR,
Nikolaus

[1] www.pyra-handheld.com
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Re: Kernel 3.x and Freerunner

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 30.01.2014 um 11:54 schrieb Mike Crash:

> Hello,
> 
> last two years I was busy with other private stuff, now I have returned
> to my old projects and also my Neo. I have completely rewritten my
> software and I want to compile it for Neo. But new software is not
> compatible with old kernel (for example udev).
> 
> I have tried to boot up Neo and what a surprice, everything works as 2
> years ago. Only battery has half of capacity...
> 
> I want to ask if there was some progress in support of Neo Freerunner in
> stock kernel. I still use old 2.6.29 with openmoko modifications, is it
> possible to use kernel 3.13? I don't need phone functionality, only
> display, audio and gps. I have looked around, there are some Neo stuff
> in stock kernel, but I don't know, if it is usable. Please can anybody
> tell me, what's the situation now? Have anybody tried new stock kernels?

You could consider replacing the motherboard with a GTA04A5.

It is (will be) well supported [1] and we are permanently working to get
things into mainline and reduce the differences.

The latest good kernel is 3.12.7 and 3.14 is coming soon.

BR,
Nikolaus

[1]: http://git.goldelico.com/?p=gta04-kernel.git;a=summary

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Re: [Community] GTA04A5 / Letux 2804

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 17.01.2014 um 19:13 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon:

> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:
> 
>> Not everybody is weighting the factor of "freeable down to the modem" equally
>> when calculating the relative position of two devices to decide between
>> "upgrade" and "downgrade". You have a different weighting than me.
> 
> If freedom is not important to you, then you might as well use an
> iPhone or the latest Android from Samsung.
> 
> As Jim Marrs has said very eloquently in the preface to one of his
> books, being free is like being pregnant - either you are, or you
> aren't.
> 
>> I don't know, but isn't *that* something you should fight against
>> instead of modifying
>> leaked firmware for a system that never has been locked?
> 
> "Modifying leaked firmware" is not an accurate description of what I
> am doing.  As you should know full well, I am designing and building
> my own Free Plain Phone, and I have chosen to use the same Calypso
> chipset as used in the GTA02.  I chose this chipset because it already
> exists, because it is known to work exceptionally well, at least in
> "dumbphone" applications (I've been using one of my Pirelli phones as
> my everyday cellphone since last spring, and I have nothing but praise
> for it in terms of battery life, GSM signal strength and call quality),
> because all hardware documentation and firmware sources for this
> chipset have already been freed, and because I have already amassed a
> great deal of experience working with this chipset.
> 
> Providing hacking support for Openmoko-made modems is simply a side-
> product of my FreeCalypso work: I have chosen to bring my firmware up
> on known-working hardware first, so that when I build my own hw and
> get to debug it, I will have the benefit of known-working firmware.
> 
> Put another way, the free phone community (combination of FreeCalypso
> and OsmocomBB projects) has already made great progress with the
> Calypso chipset.  Switching to another vendor's chipset on a whim
> would be an enormous setback for the project and for the community,
> and it is not fair for you to ask that of us - here I am referring to
> the "you should be working on this instead of that" argument in your
> comment.
> 
>> So your claim of "GTA02 is 100% freeable and GTA04 is not" is only based on
>> your disinterest to work on solutions?
> 
> I am working on solutions, but the problem I have chosen to solve is
> different from yours.

Agreed. The problem the GTA04 solves is that the GTA02 has no high-speed
modem. Has a  quite old CPU with scarce RAM and NAND. Has no sensors
for games. Has no camera option and some other gimmicks.

All this was expected to be solved by the GTA03 which never appeared
on the surface.

This is what I understand as an *upgrade*.

AFAIR it was never the claim of Openmoko to have an open modem firmware.
And Openmoko did never provide that (because of contractual obligations).

And having this was not formulated as an urgent problem of the Openmoko
community and did not stop to have ~20k units produced in total.

So we are not doing anything differently. We don't claim that the modem 
firmware is free and open. But the OS. So that you have 100% control over
what the modem does since you can verify that it is turned off if you command
it to be off.

>  Some people, such as me, simply want a good
> working cellphone, a device for making and receiving phone calls on
> the go - and we want this cellphone to be free as in 100% owned and
> controlled by the user.  

Even if you have a free and open firmware, it still has components that
are not free and open. Just for example the SIM card. And the network.
And the other end of your communication.

The speech sent by your 100% free phone is still decrypted at the BTS.
And if you encrypt the whole communication path yourself, why do you care
what the modem is doing?

> If the objective is to have a plain phone,
> rather than a mobile computer, a device consisting of just one baseband
> processor, without an extra application processor, is a technically
> superior solution for the problem at hand: greater battery life, less
> unnecessary complexity, fewer points of failure.  And the existence of
> the Calypso chipset makes it possible for such a simple and efficient
> "dumbphone" to also be 100% free by virtue of the user owning and
> controlling the complete firmware.
> 
> Then there are those people who do want their pocket-resident device
> to be a computer complete with an OS like GNU/Linux, rather than just
> a phone - but some of those people would also want that device to be
> 100% free including the telephony processor - and not just 

Re: [Community] GTA04A5 / Letux 2804

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

I have added back your original statement because otherwise this discussion
is not completely understandable:

>> So please think again if you want to upgrade your GTA02 with a GTA04A5 board.
> 
> Upgrade?  Surely you must have meant downgrade - why would anyone in
> his or her right mind voluntarily give up a device that is 100%
> freeable down to the modem (GTA02) for a Qualcomm-based closed
> proprietary product like yours?

Not everybody is weighting the factor of "freeable down to the modem" equally
when calculating the relative position of two devices to decide between 
"upgrade"
and "downgrade". You have a different weighting than me. Both are equally 
"right minded".

Am 16.01.2014 um 21:31 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon:

> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:
> 
>> Why do you assume that your (IMHO unlawful) procedure done to "free" the
>> Calypso is not possible for a Qualcomm modem?
> 
> Because all "modern" baseband processors (MTK, Qualcomm etc) have ROM
> bootloaders which perform cryptographic verification of downloaded fw

I don't know, but isn't *that* something you should fight against instead of 
modifying
leaked firmware for a system that never has been locked?

> 
>> So I think your conclusion is just based on your pure incapability to do the
>> same.
> 
> s/incapability/disinterest/

Even worse.

So your claim of "GTA02 is 100% freeable and GTA04 is not" is only based on
your disinterest to work on solutions?


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Re: [Community] GTA04A5 / Letux 2804

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 16.01.2014 um 17:55 schrieb Michael Spacefalcon:

> Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller  wrote:
> 
>> So please think again if you want to upgrade your GTA02 with a GTA04A5 board.
> 
> Upgrade?  Surely you must have meant downgrade - why would anyone in
> his or her right mind voluntarily give up a device that is 100%
> freeable down to the modem (GTA02) for a Qualcomm-based closed
> proprietary product like yours?

Why do you assume that your (IMHO unlawful) procedure done to "free" the
Calypso is not possible for a Qualcomm modem?

So I think your conclusion is just based on your pure incapability to do the 
same.

> Sorry, couldn't resist.

Why?


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[Community] GTA04A5 / Letux 2804

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,
it is time to take a look onto the GTA04A5 campaign.

We have currently collected pledges for 19 units.

This is good, but not enough to start a new production run to reach a fairly 
reasonable final
price for those preorders.

The calculation is simple. The setup cost of a new production run for a GTA04 
type of
product is in the range of 4000€ .

This is cost that occurs before the first device is produced. It is for getting 
the PCB produced,
getting new stencils for solder pasting, and setting up the pick&place 
machines. It is so high
because the micro-via type of PCBs for 0.4mm BGAs is not a standard technology 
and setting
up the Pick&Place machine is manual work depending on the number of components.

Usually it would even include the engineering cost for designing the new PCB, 
but I
do that for free (because it is fun and not difficult if you already have a 
GTA04A4 design done).
So this is my personal donation to the community...

So if we want to produce 20 units, each one must cover 200€ of these setup 
costs. In
addition to batch size dependent cost like chips (which also become cheaper if 
we buy
more of them), energy cost for running the pick&place machines etc.

I we reach a batch of 100 units, this one-time cost goes down to 40€ per unit. 
I.e. a saving
of 160€ per unit (and even more by component cost savings). Just by s/20/100/.

So please think again if you want to upgrade your GTA02 with a GTA04A5 board.

If you are looking for a Letux 2804 (GTA04 complete) and don't own a GTA02, we 
still
have a handful of used GTA02 devices with a GTA04A5-upgrade rebate.

And there have been some generous offers recently by community members for GTA02
devices that collect dust... They are also nice candidates for a GTA04A5 
upgrade.

Please note that the GTA02 is the only 5 years old smart phone where you can get
full support and even a motherboard upgrade. This is very unique and sort of 
"modular"
concept.


So how will be the future of the GTA04?

It will be further supported and we are working heavily to get as much of the 
kernel
modifications into mainline. The 3.12.7 kernel is available and working quite 
well.
And we are focussing on getting the device tree to support everything in 3.14.

As soon as this big construction site becomes a little more stable I hope that 
we can
better address the remaining power management aspects of OMAP3 again. Currently 
there
is so much change in certain subsystems that things change while you are 
analysing
and the results may no longer be valid after some kernel upgrade...

For 3D GPU support we are waiting that TI releases a new 3.12/13/14 compatible
SDK.

Improving Replicant 4 is also on our to-do list, but we could need some help.

QtMoko is something Radek should comment about, if he wants to upgrade the 
kernel.


Nikolaus
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Re: QtMoko v58 with 2.6.39 kernel and improved power management

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Radek,

Am 12.12.2013 um 10:09 schrieb Radek Polak:

> Hi,
> QtMoko v58 for Freerunner is now out! You can download here [1] and visit our 
> homepage [2] for more info.

+++

> Btw - anyone has working GPS on Freerunner? I cant get fix and it seems it's 
> not SW problem. It would be nice to have it working again...

Some knowledge from GTA02 service:

a) the U.FL-cable of the GPS antenna module can easily be broken (where it is 
soldered to the GPS antenna module PCB)
b) there is no capacitor on the MMC clock line (this results in 63*25 MHz 
noise) - was fixed in factory on A6 and A7 boards

Does it work with an external antenna?

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Re: the second operating system

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 09.12.2013 um 19:32 schrieb Norayr Chilingarian:

> 
> There is an osnews article named "The second operating system hiding in
> every mobile phone", and I guess some people in this list may be
> interested. Not that we didn't know about it, just wanted to share an
> article with you.
> 
> http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone


you may not have noticed, but this article was already linked and discussed on 
this list before:

http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2013-November/069089.html

BR,
Nikolaus

PS: you car electronics may also run several (embedded) operating system. And 
the
SIM card in your phone also runs a third one. Security is not inverse 
proportional to the number of OSes.



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Re: Fundraising for GTA04A5 has started!

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 22.11.2013 um 17:21 schrieb Lukas Märdian:

> Am 22.11.2013 23:23, schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:
>> 
>> Am 22.11.2013 um 15:46 schrieb Pascal Gosselin:
>> 
>>> 
>>> What about GPS specifications ?  My company would have interest in multiple 
>>> units if the GPS chip was capable of 5Hz or greater updates.  Recent GPS 
>>> chipsets all seem to have GPS/GLONASS capability, which is very nice to 
>>> have.
>> 
>> I think we can not easily change to use something different than the WSG0084 
>> using a Sirf IV.
>> Unfortunately, the latest datasheet still isn't telling anything about the 
>> max. update rate and any updates in the firmware:
> 
> On page 15 it says: "3: Defined as current drawn during continuous
> operation at a 10Hz update rate." Could this be a hint, that the module
> can actually operate at a max. update rate of 10Hz?

Unfortunately no. I also stumbled over this sentence but I think they mean
the update rate of the current probe, i.e. they did measuer the supply
current 10 times per second.

> 
> Is there any GTA04 board, which already has a W2SG0084i installed?

Yes, about 50 or 80 (I don't remember the exact figure) since the W2SG0004i
was EOL and could easily be swapped. Unfortunately we don't have a mapping
to serial numbers.

> If
> so, we could try to query/set the output rate according to chap. 5 "NMEA
> Input Messages", using the message ID 103.

That one unfortunately only allows to specify the reporting rate in
multiples of 1 second, i.e. up to 255 seconds. But not 1/10 sec.

> Also chap. 6.2 "OSP Input
> Messages" look interesting, especially message 0x81.
> 
> Cheers,
>  Lukas


Maybe someone knows a good technical contact to Wi2Wi?
I only have very indirect support though a distributor.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Fundraising for GTA04A5 has started!

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 22.11.2013 um 15:46 schrieb Pascal Gosselin:

> 
> What about GPS specifications ?  My company would have interest in multiple 
> units if the GPS chip was capable of 5Hz or greater updates.  Recent GPS 
> chipsets all seem to have GPS/GLONASS capability, which is very nice to have.

I think we can not easily change to use something different than the WSG0084 
using a Sirf IV.
Unfortunately, the latest datasheet still isn't telling anything about the max. 
update rate and any updates in the firmware:

http://markmail.org/thread/xwvhveabo3ql3mf6

The problem of swapping in a different module is that we have to touch the pcb 
layout more than planned. And since the camera module is sitting above, we must 
take care that the replacement module has almost exactly the same dimensions. 
Finally, it must be easy to purchase it.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: Fundraising for GTA04A5 has started!

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 22.11.2013 um 12:17 schrieb Dominic Walden:

> What are the likely power consumption improvements in the A5?

There are some power consumption related things planned:
1. separate the GPIOs to control power of RS232 and IrDA so that both can be 
switched off in suspend state - this should save another 3-5mA.
2. have a GPIO monitor if the modem is turned on/off
3. use a GPIO to control WiFi power and not an LDO (so we can switch off the 
LDO)
4. replace compass and gyroscope by other chips that need less power

> Or is
> that mainly a software issue?

Yes, there appears to be still much in the software an it appears that the SoC 
is no completely powered down.

And what we are evaluating is the risk to swap the USB3322 (USB PHY) with a 
Texas instruments
recommended replacement. The problem is that we can't build a protoype to test 
that
other chip and installing either one has too tight space contraints.

> What will the relationship be between this and the Neo900? Will the
> Neo900 motherboard include some of the upgraded A5 components?

Depends. The Neo900 is a new design based on experiences from the GTA04
project, and we try to share some components. But the Neo900 is planned to be
compatible to the Fremantle software which needs to add some hardware that
the GTA04 simply does not need (e.g. a second audio codec).

> 
> Good luck, I will be watching with interest (and might put some money
> down).

Tnx,
Nikolaus


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Fundraising for GTA04A5 has started!

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi all,
after solving some issues, we finally have started the fundraising campaign
for producing more GTA04 boards (revision GTA04A5 having improvements).

So the story continues!

And we have good news for those who don't own or want to cannibalise their
GTA01/02: we have stock of a bunch of used GTA02 devices.

For details, please refer to:

http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/community/2013-November/000646.html
http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04A5

Happy "Freerunning",
Nikolaus Schaller


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Re: GTA04A5 ready to be pre-ordered

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 13.11.2013 um 22:46 schrieb thomasg:

> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 11:20 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Am 08.11.2013 um 23:08 schrieb Michael Parchet:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Sorry I found only GTA04A4  but not GTA04A5 with LTE for pre order and
>> price.
>> 
>> Why
>> 
>> 
>> If you look at the date (22 janvier 2013), a long time has passed. We did
>> start for preorders
>> back then, but there wasn't enough response. So it was put on hold some
>> weeks later.
>> 
>> In the meantime the list cited below is still almost correct, but not
>> everything.
>> 
>> Now, we are *thinking* about restarting the project with *maybe* LTE
>> (option).
>> 
> 
> Hi Nikolaus,
> 
> glad to hear that, I'd be really happy to see a new device that might
> leave the exterior of the Neo's behind for something better.

No, the GTA04A5 will keep the Neo's exterior as it is.

It is still a motherboard replacement.

But as before you may be able to design your own case around it.

> A long time ago, people were interested in replacing the Calypso with
> a Telit modem for future devices; as you might think about a new
> platform, I wonder if the Telit modems might be considered, still?

Initially we tried with the Telit modems but they were not flat enough
and we would have had to sacrifice the speaker (handsfree).

Fortunately we found the GTM601 which is used in the GTA04A1-A4.

> The big difference to the Qualcomms is, that the user documentation is
> much better, including a freely available full AT command reference
> [2] and more.

They also have Qualcomm inside.

> They have, for example, the new L910 [1] with LTE
> support, and as they aren't used by most major phone makers, I'd
> assume that they might be more reasonable in delivering smaller,
> reasonably priced, batches.
> It also includes GNSS (GPS, GLONASS) support (with documented AT
> interface), and has VoLTE support (voice over LTE), which makes it
> reasonably future-proof.
> With an 28.2 * 28.2 * 2.2 mm (LGA 144) package it isn't exactly tiny,
> but not that much larger than alternatives I think.
> Their modules are all pin-compatible, so the NA and EU variants, as
> well as 2G, 3G, 4G variants can be replaced without further changes.

The same holds with the Cinterion PxS8 modules. Documentation is
also available w/o problems.

We are currently evaluating all these options, but there are technical
and commercial aspects to consider. E.g. the Telit xE910 modems
are 10% thicker and likely still too thick.

> An extra wish would be using a main SoC with ARM Mali graphics, so
> free GPU drivers would be realistic (in contrast to all other options
> it seems).
> I'd certainly be in.

There is no plan to change the CPU since the OMAP3/DM3730 is still
the best mobile processor that can easily be purchased in small
quantities. And (despite the GPU) it is very well documented and
supported by mainline linux.

So please don't expect a wonder to happen... Just small steps and
improvements.

BR,
Nikolaus

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Re: GTA04A5 ready to be pre-ordered

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 08.11.2013 um 23:08 schrieb Michael Parchet:

> Hello,
> 
> Sorry I found only GTA04A4  but not GTA04A5 with LTE for pre order and price.
> 
> Why

If you look at the date (22 janvier 2013), a long time has passed. We did start 
for preorders
back then, but there wasn't enough response. So it was put on hold some weeks 
later.

In the meantime the list cited below is still almost correct, but not 
everything.

Now, we are *thinking* about restarting the project with *maybe* LTE (option).

Restarting means to think about all details - and decide if it is now a better 
time to
do it. You know world economy has changed, attitudes for openness, freerom have
changed and people are no longer following that much the top 2 brands.

I.e. please wait for a new announcement.

BR,
Nikolaus

> 
> Thanks for your answer
> 
> Best regards
> 
> mparchet
> 
> Le mardi 22 janvier 2013, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller a écrit :
> Hi all,
> finally, the GTA04A5 batch is ready for production and we are open for 
> pre-orders through
> 
> <http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04>
> 
> What will be different to GTA04A4?
> 
> * the GPS receiver can provide a 1 second impulse interrupt to the CPU
> * the infrared receiver can be independently powered off (it was 
> alternatively powered with RS232 before)
> * some sensors have been upgraded to non-obsolete versions (e.g. BMA180 is 
> out of production)
> * WLAN/BT power controlled through a GPIO (so that VAUX4 is now free for 
> other use)
> * 6-pin ZIF connector for external keyboard or other I2C devices
> * it is possible to use a new earpiece (from Knowles) so that we finally can 
> offer a complete case kit
> * the GPS antenna switch has been redesigned
> * improved headset detection hardware
> * CPU will be always 1 GHz and Memory 512MB RAM / 1GB NAND
> * UMTS module may have newer firmware inside (tbc.)
> * there is a plan for a 3D printed case (approx. 50 EUR) with integrated 
> touch pen
> * there will be 3D data (STEP) of the PCB and components so that you can 
> design your own case that fits with a micrometer precision :)
> 
> Preliminary (there may still come minor changes coming from PCB
> Layout tuning and from first production feedback) schematics can be found 
> here:
> 
> <http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/48/>
> 
> -- hns
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Re: [Community] GTA04A5 ready to be pre-ordered

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 07.11.2013 um 00:02 schrieb NeilBrown:

> On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:20:01 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>  wrote:
> 
> Seeing you are considering trying again for the GTA04a5, I thought I might
> re-visit these issues:
> 
> 
>> 
>> Am 22.01.2013 um 12:29 schrieb NeilBrown:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:02:38 +0100 "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Preliminary (there may still come minor changes coming from PCB
>>>> Layout tuning and from first production feedback) schematics can be found 
>>>> here:
>>>> 
>>>><http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/48/>
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> One thing that has always bothered me a little bit is that the FM 
>>> transceiver
>>> is wired for digital IO rather than analog.  That means that the CPU needs 
>>> to
>>> be active to copy sound around in order to listen to the radio.  If the
>>> LOUT/ROUT pins were connected to the line-in pins on the audio chip you
>>> should be able to listen to the radio with the CPU off.
>> 
>> Yes, that should be possible.
>> 
>>> It would mean that you couldn't get the same fidelity if you wanted a 
>>> digital
>>> copy of the broadcast, but I wonder if that really matters.
>>> 
>>> What is the expected use-case of the FM radio?  If it is just for listening
>>> to, the current config doesn't seem to be optimal.
>> 
>> Well, the TX direction is more interesting since it can play sound (incl. 
>> navigation
>> information) to a car radio. By using text2speech. And mix with sound.
>> 
>> Connecting to the Audio in is a problem since we have already connected them
>> to the headset jack. So that it is possible to record sound fed into the 
>> headset
>> jack. I.e. portable audio recorder...
> 
> Is the "portable audio recorder" use case more valuable than the "FM radio
> without excessive power usage" use case?  I would be happy to sacrifice the
> stereo-aux-in if it meant I could listen to the radio for longer.
> 
> For the price of another analogue switch like the one you use to isolate the
> headset outputs (U703) you could support both FM and AUX inputs.  Maybe that
> price is too high??

I will check. It is probably less a cost issue (such chips are around 50ct) but 
space
and (shielded) wiring. But since headset jack and the Si4721 are not far away
from each other it could work.

> 
>> 
>> And the FM-analog out are multiplexed with the digital interface on the 
>> Si4721.
>> So we would need some analog/digital switching circuits where we don't have
>> space for :(
> 
> I wouldn't suggest enabling both the analogue and digital interfaces.  Just
> the analogue.  Digital might be nice but isn't really necessary.

Well, it gives a better S/N since the signals are already A/D converted in the 
Si4721
and just need to be arecord >file if you want to capture signals.

> 
> 
>> 
>>> Related: have you thought about connecting the bluetooth PCM interface
>>> directly to the TPS chip in the same way that the Modem's PCM interface is
>>> connected?
>>> 
>>> That should allow the use of a bluetooth headset on a phone call without any
>>> CPU intervention.
>> 
>> Yes, that could work to add these 2 wires (at least in the schematics - I 
>> don't
>> know if we can squeeze them into the PCB wire hairball). And I have checked
>> that these two pins at the TPS65950 come up in GPIO (input) mode, i.e.
>> don't interfere.
>> 
>> One issue could be that there is no BSP clock for that interface on the TPS 
>> side.
>> I.e. it is shared with some other interface and I am not sure how to operate 
>> it correctly.
>> So we might have to wire up something else to really make it work.
> 
> The clock for the bluetooth interface and the voice interface are shared.
> So the clock from the GSM module drives the whole chain from bluetooth
> through TWL4030 to GSM.

Well, we likely can't use the BT PCM to play music from memory? I put it on the 
checklist as well.

> 
>> 
>>> Just thinking out loud - looking forward to the A5 being a reality!
>> 
>> So I find both proposals really good, but I hesitate to add them... may need 
>> a lot
>> of work to add, and may finally not work. The problem with hardware is that
>> we have to do it 100% right or risk scrapping a big set of PCBs or costly 
>> rework
>> in the production line. Unfortunately there is no apt-get upgrade or git 
>> pull for
>> the wires on a PCB...
> 
> :-)  I'm waiting for the day when a 3D printer can print a fully populated
> multi-layer PCB (under voice command of course).

Me too. Incl. printing the wires and transistors on a Si chip :)

> 
> Maybe in the spirit of openness a vote might be  instructive.
>  Does anyone actually want stereo aux input through the 2.5mm jack?
>  Does anyone actually want to listen to the FM radio without wasting power?
> 
> (no and yes for me).
> 
> Thanks,
> NeilBrown


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Re: [Community] GTA04A5 ready to be pre-ordered

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 07.11.2013 um 13:03 schrieb Benjamin Deering:

> On 11/06/2013 06:02 PM, NeilBrown wrote:
>> 
>> .
>> 
>> Maybe in the spirit of openness a vote might be  instructive.
>>   Does anyone actually want stereo aux input through the 2.5mm jack?
>>   Does anyone actually want to listen to the FM radio without wasting power?
>> 
>> (no and yes for me).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> NeilBrown
>> 
> Is there a similar possibility for the neo900?  If so, my answer would also 
> be no and yes.

The Neo900 has FM RX + TX (because the N900 has).

> 
> I see that Silicon Labs has a chip that does FM and weather band (si4739), 
> but without transmit.  If there is no place to cram a tx antenna, maybe this 
> would be a good option.  It looks like they are almost pin compatible - I 
> think am antenna would replace tx antenna.


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Re: First small steps toward free GSM firmware

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 16.10.2013 um 19:31 schrieb Timo Juhani Lindfors:

> Balint Szente  writes:
>> Isn't the situation the same with osmocombb as well?
>> 
>> Based on what is written here:
>> 
>> can osmocombb considered free software in FSF's or OSI's definition?
>> What is not clear for me is that can a software be FSF/OSI "free" but
>> illegal to use?

"Free" is a term only considering copyright. I.e. it is licenced under 
"copyleft".

But general usage of some hardware may be regulated by many other laws.
Customs, export, radio emissions, safety etc. Everything in life is more or less
regulated. And in most cases you are happy that it is (look e.g. at aviation
regulation and safety).

> 
> Afaik you can use it legally if you connect it directly to your own base
> station.

If you connect it by shielded cable or if you place both in a big shielded box.
I.e.  if the spurious emissions stay below some defined level and don't disturb
other services (which includes the public GSM network).


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Re: Kickstarter: Open Source Graphics Processor (GPU)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 12.10.2013 um 19:23 schrieb Ian Stirling:

> 
> On 10/12/2013 05:43 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> The main fear I have is that there is not enough funding because nobody can 
>> really use it in daily work without investing another lots of money (to 
>> integrate the FPGA with something). BR, Nikolaus
> 
> Speaking in generalities - FPGAs use lots more power for a given task than 
> dedicated hardware.
> They are also a lot more expensive.
> This is unlikely to be $400K investment, then $20 per chip.
> More like 400K investment leading to something that works on a $1000 FPGA, 
> and uses several times the
> power of a comparable device.
> 
> Is this interesting - in principle - yes - combined with an ARM licence, it 
> could lead to a moderately low risk CPU, if someone were willing to put up 
> the several-many million to make a CPU with it on die.
> 
> Off-die GPUs are an utter non-starter for mobile devices.


Has anyone experience with the Zynq-7000? It has dual Cortex A9 with VFP/Neon - 
but apparently lacks a GPU...
Such a combination could be comparable with OMAP3/4 in computation power.

Maybe not the best one for a handheld mobile device, but for a tablet.

-- hns
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Re: Kickstarter: Open Source Graphics Processor (GPU)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 09.10.2013 um 22:29 schrieb Raphael Wimmer:

> Sounds interesting (in the long term):
> 
> "Complete Verilog implementation of a 2D/ 3D graphics processor capable of 
> OpenGL and D3D w/ full test suite"
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/725991125/open-source-graphics-processor-gpu

Oh, yes. That is what we need for our next generation Open Source "OMAP" chip!

> Should work with both Altera and Xilinx FPGAs
> Goals: $200k for 2D, $400k for 3D, ...

Well, $400k for 3D looks a little difficult to achieve, and 2D only can be done 
by any standard CPU quite quickly?

> It currently has only a PCI interface, however.

Well, by their open source nature it can be changed (by anyone experienced 
enough and having access to work with Verilog).

The main fear I have is that there is not enough funding because nobody can 
really use it in daily
work without investing another lots of money (to integrate the FPGA with 
something).

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 06.10.2013 um 08:42 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

> Hi Bob,
> 
> Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
>> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> 
>>> Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
>>> "open hardware" - and never were intended to be.
>> 
>> That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
>> 
>> "Open Hardware Devices.
>> 
>> Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone"
>> 
>> http://www.openphoenux.org/ 
> 
> Am 05.10.2013 um 20:10 schrieb Martin Jansa:
> 
>> Using "open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files" is maybe less misleading for
>> people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
>> the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for "normal" people.
> 
> Can you agree on the following?
> 
> 1. you are talking about "open SOURCE hardware" (which I call "free hardware")
> 
>http://www.ohanda.org/ = "Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance"
> 
> 2. OpenPhoenux was and is never claiming to be open SOURCE hardware
>(like Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, RasPi [1], ... never did)
> 
> And some organizations fostering open SOURCE hardware and free hardware
> are falsely recognized (e.g. by media) to cover ANY open hardware?
> 
> -- hns
> 
> [1]: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=45583&p=360559

PS: I have found an old definition of "Open Hardware" from 1999.
IMHO well thought and interesting to read...

http://www.opencollector.org/Whyfree/definitions.html
http://www.opencollector.org/Whyfree/

If we had known this before, we could have saved this long flamewar.
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Bob,

Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
>> "open hardware" - and never were intended to be.
> 
> That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
> 
>  "Open Hardware Devices.
> 
>  Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone"
> 
> http://www.openphoenux.org/ 

Am 05.10.2013 um 20:10 schrieb Martin Jansa:

> Using "open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files" is maybe less misleading for
> people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
> the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for "normal" people.

Can you agree on the following?

1. you are talking about "open SOURCE hardware" (which I call "free hardware")

http://www.ohanda.org/ = "Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance"

2. OpenPhoenux was and is never claiming to be open SOURCE hardware
(like Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, RasPi [1], ... never did)

And some organizations fostering open SOURCE hardware and free hardware
are falsely recognized (e.g. by media) to cover ANY open hardware?

-- hns

[1]: http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=45583&p=360559



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 21:05 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 20:10 +0200, Martin Jansa wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 05:37:59PM +, Bob Ham wrote:
> 
>>> I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
>>> be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as "open
>>> hardware" and what others describe as "open hardware" and yet you ignore
>>> this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
>>> it accords with your own personal definition.
>> 
>> I'm sorry but I think you're doing the same, just from the other side.
>> 
>> From this thread it's clear that different people understand "open
>> hardware" differently, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or
>> dishonest.
> 
> I disagree.  I've quoted a number of different bodies on their idea of
> what constitutes open hardware and they all concur.

And I claim the right to have another idea. We are not in "1984".

> 
> Meanwhile:
> 
> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> And for me any printout that I can read is open source.
> 
> Nikolaus goes by his own definitions, regardless of what is generally
> accepted.  

I have never been asked to "accept" such a definition as binding. And
probably nobody else.

So it is not "generally accepted".

Rather there are some organizations that called themselves "open hardware 
something".
And are pushing forward "Freedoms". And members and supporters of that
organizations have of course accepted their definitions. But can they define
what "open hardware" is? They can define it for themselves.

And let me ask:
which organization are you representing in this discussion?
Or are you talking as a private person?

> We've even got people making up their own meaningless
> phrases:
> 
> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
>> In my dictionary, it's definitely free platform. 
> 
> The way I see it, on one hand there is a bunch of individuals on a
> mailing list with their own ideas about what the phrase "open hardware"
> should refer to, and on the other hand there are a number of
> well-organised bodies with clear definitions which are not only in
> accord with each other but with (1) the open hardware community that I
> know and (2) the principles of the free software movement and the open
> source community, the progenitors of those bodies.
> 
> ==
>> "open hardware" isn't AFAIK any registered "sticker" or "trade mark"
>> with clearly defined meaning, so it's pity that different people
>> associate it with different meanings/freedoms, but that's not their
>> fault.
> 
> The people here seem to have their own meanings.  Everybody else seems
> to have a pretty consistent idea about what constitutes "open hardware".

Please send me a list of "everybody else".

And don't forget: even the majority may be wrong...

I think here on this list we have a quite long track record of experiences
with these topics. Maybe one of the longest.

> You're right though, there is no trade mark.  I would hope that by
> clearly demonstrating how Nikolaus's ideas conflict with the basic ideas
> of the open hardware community, he will respect the fact that there is
> an incompatibility and refrain from misrepresenting his product.

It now looks to me as some group of people tries to capture the term
"open hardware" (althoug they mean "free hardware") and that is
something we have to fight against - in the name of freedom...

> 
> 
> ==
>> Your "source code" citations from licenses are nice, but license text is
>> the right place where you should find definition of what's meant by term
>> "source code"
> 
> The quotations from license are there as evidence of the principles of
> the free software movement and the open source community.  Licenses are
> explicit manifestations of the ideas and motivations behind these
> groups.  If you want to find out what the open source community or the
> free software movement believes, the licenses they create are the place
> to go.
> 
> What we see when look at those expressions of principles is a common
> theme of requiring source code to be in the preferred form for making
> modifications.  This idea has been inherited by the open hardware
> community.  The inheritance is expressed in the Open Source Hardware
> Definition and elsewhere.

Again you are mixing Open and Free. Please make yourself familiar with
the distinction.

Hint: I can 

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 20:10 schrieb Martin Jansa:

> On Sat, Oct 05, 2013 at 05:37:59PM +, Bob Ham wrote:
>> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
>>>>> "open hardware" - and never were intended to be.
>>>> 
>>>> That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
>> 
>>>> You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
>> 
>>>> This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
>> 
>>> Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
>> 
>> I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  You seem to
>> be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as "open
>> hardware" and what others describe as "open hardware" and yet you ignore
>> this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
>> it accords with your own personal definition.
> 
> I'm sorry but I think you're doing the same, just from the other side.
> 
> From this thread it's clear that different people understand "open
> hardware" differently, but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or
> dishonest.
> 
> "open hardware" isn't AFAIK any registered "sticker" or "trade mark"
> with clearly defined meaning, so it's pity that different people
> associate it with different meanings/freedoms, but that's not their
> fault.

++

> Your "source code" citations from licenses are nice, but license text is
> the right place where you should find definition of what's meant by term
> "source code", OpenPhoenux page doesn't say that it's using terminilogy
> from ohanda or oshwa.

++

and not from GPL or BSD or MIT licenses etc.

We use CC and it defines:

"THE WORK (AS DEFINED BELOW) IS PROVIDED UNDER THE TERMS OF THIS CREATIVE 
COMMONS PUBLIC LICENSE ("CCPL" OR "LICENSE")."

"Work" means the literary and/or artistic work offered under the terms of this 
License including without limitation any production in the literary, scientific 
and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression 
including digital form, such as a book, pamphlet and other writing; a lecture, 
address, sermon or other work of the same nature; a dramatic or 
dramatico-musical work; ..."

I.e. paper is explicitly included and all forms of its expression.

> "open hardware" is imho closest term you can use to describe advantage
> of gta04 for other people asking why you don't use cheaper android phone
> or why they should buy gta04.

or even more closed buy an iPhone or Lumia...

> Using "open-hardware-but-without-CAD-files" is maybe less misleading for
> people who has great understanding of all free/open definitions used in
> the world (and wikipedia), but also more misleading for "normal" people.
> 
> Your accusations sounds like if Nikolaus is using OHANDA clearly defined
> label without fulfilling requirements defined by OHANDA.

++

this confirms my own answer (was written before reading yours).

Tnx -- hns


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 19:37 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 17:17 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:
>> 
>>> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
>>>> "open hardware" - and never were intended to be.
>>> 
>>> That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
> 
>>> You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
> 
>>> This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
> 
>> Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?
> 
> I want you to stop describing the GTA04 as open hardware.  

Ah, you are an "idelogic activist". I should have taken that into account from
the beginning of any discussion.

Because prefer to discuss with common sense and not needing to
weigh one's words ...

> You seem to
> be aware that there is a difference between what you describe as "open
> hardware" and what others describe as "open hardware" and yet you ignore
> this discrepancy and continue as if what you're saying is true because
> it accords with your own personal definition.

Did you consider the option that all others may be wrong?

And, please give me the officially approved definition of "Open Hardware"
by ISO or some other official standardization body. If that exists, I will 
follow it.
Otherwise there are several personal definitions.

> I want to make it undeniably clear that describing the GTA04 as "open
> hardware" is wrong.

This is your personal opinion.

I only agree that it is not "Free Hardware".

And since it is obviously not closed hardware (like an iPhone, Lumia etc.)
it follows from logic that it must be "open hardware".

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a 
>> book
>> from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.
>> 
>> Was it non.open source?
> 
> It was not open source.
>  This issue has been discussed previously.  The
> source must be in the form customarily used for making modifications to
> it.  This is an important factor.

Why? I see the distinction between closed and open not in the convenience
of sharing information.

> 
> From the GNU GPL 2:
> 
>  'The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
>  making modifications to it'

preferred != required

> https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html
> 
> From the Apache License 2.0:
> 
>  '"Source" form shall mean the preferred form for making modifications'
> https://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html

preferred != required

> 
> From the MPL 2.0:
> 
>  '“Source Code Form” means the form of the work preferred for making
>  modifications.'
> https://www.mozilla.org/MPL/2.0/

preferred != required

> 
> From the CDDL 1.0:
> 
>  '“Source Code” means (a) the common form of computer software code in
>  which modifications are made and (b) associated documentation included
>  in or with such code.'
> http://web.archive.org/web/20090305064954/http://www.sun.com/cddl/cddl.html

The common form of Schematics is a piece of paper with lines, circles and arcs.

> If a software company refused access to their software's source code in
> electronic text form and only released it in paper form (or in the form
> of a bitmap image inside a PDF), that software would not be considered
> "open source".  The phrase that seems most appropriate for such
> software, I think, would be "encumbered source".
> 
> 
> Wikipedia gives a fair description of open(/free) hardware:
> 
>  'Open-source hardware consists of physical artifacts of technology
>  designed and offered by the open design movement.'
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_hardware
> 
> And of the open design movement, it says this:
> 
>  'Open design is the development of physical products, machines and
>  systems through use of publicly shared design information. ... The
>  process is generally facilitated by the Internet and often performed
>  without monetary compensation.

That is an description of the status quo and not a normative definition
of "Open Hardware".

> The goals and philosophy are identical
>  to that of the open-source movement, but are implemented for the
>  development of physical products rather than software.'
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_design

Wikipedia is not a definition. It is a description of how authors see
the world.

> The Hardware Freedom D

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:42 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

> 
> Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
>> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
>> 
>>> I can agree that the usage of "free
>>> hardware" term may be a bit confusing.
>> 
>> Describing the GTA04 as "Open Hardware" on openphoenux.org is, I
>> believe, not just confusing but dishonest.
> 
> 
> Ok, what would be a better wording for a well documented hardware
> so open in documentation that everyone can write and install any
> free and open operating system he/she likes?
> 
> I.e. there is no documentation hidden voluntarily that is needed to
s/voluntarily/intentionally/s
> 
> reach this goal (you don't need Gerber files to make Linux, OpenBSD,
> whatever work).
> 
> Maybe the usual distinction made between "Open" and "Free" software
> holds here as well?
> 
> "Open" does not necessarily mean "Free(dom)". But "open" is definitively
> the opposite of "closed".
> 
> So what is wrong with describing it as "Open Hardware" on
> openphoenux.org?
> 
> -- hns
> 
> ___
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
> 
>> I can agree that the usage of "free
>> hardware" term may be a bit confusing.
> 
> Describing the GTA04 as "Open Hardware" on openphoenux.org is, I
> believe, not just confusing but dishonest.


Ok, what would be a better wording for a well documented hardware
so open in documentation that everyone can write and install any
free and open operating system he/she likes?

I.e. there is no documentation hidden voluntarily that is needed to
reach this goal (you don't need Gerber files to make Linux, OpenBSD,
whatever work).

Maybe the usual distinction made between "Open" and "Free" software
holds here as well?

"Open" does not necessarily mean "Free(dom)". But "open" is definitively
the opposite of "closed".

So what is wrong with describing it as "Open Hardware" on
openphoenux.org?

-- hns

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:19 schrieb joerg Reisenweber:

> In the last 50 years I've seen only _one_ truly modular concept for 
> electronic 
> circuits that would basically meet the flexibility requirements you are 
> asking 
> for: 
> http://makezine.com/2011/12/08/the-braun-lectron-system-retro-circuit-
> dominoes/

My father did own one - unfortunately I don't know where it is now.

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:14 schrieb Pascal Gosselin:

> On 2013-10-05 11:06 AM, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
>> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  
>> wrote:
>>> If technically feasible
>> That's the problem.
>> 
> What immediately jumps to my mind is the small number of pins for the 
> modules, forcing everything to be based on serial interfaces.

Look at what MIPI.org has defined since 10 years. Display, Camera, Modem are 
all serial interfaces to use less wires. But nobody (not Apple or Samsung or 
HTC or Motogoogle or Micronokiasoft) has done a modular device.

> It's probably not realistic to be able to change a CPU module that way for 
> example.  Dicy for a camera module too.   But for tons of other I/O 
> applications, I think it's quite feasible.
> 
> The guy behind this seems hesitant to bring it to Kickstarter. Maybe he's got 
> VC plans instead.  Maybe he has no plans... !

I would assume that his plan is to get publicity for his person. Not for the 
project.

Promise people infinite life or flying to the moon and they will follow...

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Re: The "open hardware" phone project that's had the most interest

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 17:06 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak:

> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Pascal Gosselin  wrote:
>> If technically feasible
> 
> That's the problem.

++



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 14:14 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 14:07 +0200, Sebastian Krzyszkowiak wrote:
> 
>> I can agree that the usage of "free
>> hardware" term may be a bit confusing.
> 
> Describing the GTA04 as "Open Hardware" on openphoenux.org is, I
> believe, not just confusing but dishonest.

Who did put you into the position to make such offensive judgements?

-- hns

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 12:12 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 07:50 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
>> "open hardware" - and never were intended to be.
> 
> That isn't what your OpenPhoenux page says:
> 
>  "Open Hardware Devices.
> 
>  Letux 2804 / GTA04 Smartphone"
> 
> http://www.openphoenux.org/ 
> 
> 
> You're also contradicting your own previous statements:
> 
>  "I see the role of GDC [Golden Delicious Computers] to provide future
>  open hardware but remain software agnostic"
> 
> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2012-May/066835.html

> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2013-10-05 at 09:11 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> I simply don't believe in the "Free Hardware" ideology.
> 
> This admission makes your announcement here seem deceitful:
> 
>  "we are happy that we can make an announcement to the Free and
>  Open Hardware Community, right in time for X-mas and New Year:  We
>  have finally tested, understood and patched the bugs of the
>  first GTA04 sample board"
> 
> http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-December/006585.html

Hm, I wonder what you want to prove?

Shaking heads only...

-- hns
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 08:28 schrieb Paul Wise:

> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> You are mixing Free dom with Free Beer.
> 
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
> 
>> But: some people are able to jump out of the window. So do you do as well?
> 
> I followed the FSF and Debian out the window a long time ago and I am
> fairly happy with the result.

Yes, but they all decided themselves to volunteer to contribute to FSF and 
Debian.
For no payment (or by being paid by others). And I have done that as well.

But it was always *my* decision to volunteer or not. And that is not something
we can discuss or you can convince me.

> 
>> Strange argument... jOERG is right...
> 
> To me his mail was a bizarre overreaction to a request for
> clarification of your reasons for wanting to keep goldelico in control
> of gta04 production.

I agree with him. We don't owe the community anything beyond what we
have voluntarily done or will do.

In general the offer of Free projects is: look, here is something others have
piled up in the past years. If you want to use it, please use it. But you are
obliged to give back your changes to support the community.

You are argueing from an egocentric point of view: look, there is something,
others have piled up in the past years. I want to use it. So they are obliged
to give me everything I think I need (even if you don't really need it) to 
support
me or others.

At least this is what I read from rah's and your arguments.

> 

> 
> The request for clarification was probably not needed though, you have
> made it fairly clear over a few threads over the years that you aren't
> interested in making the gta04 "Free Hardware" as rah and myself
> appear to define it.

I simply don't believe in the "Free Hardware" ideology.

The reason is that there is the idea of an "allmende" or "community"
behind, where everyone gets back as much as he/she invests by
volunteer work. This is good - in theory.

With Free Hardware I simply don't see that being balanced. I.e. you
can't expect to get back enough high quality volunteer contributions
from the general public to balance what you have to invest yourself
to get something 100% done. And hardware must be finished 100%
at some deadline (contrary to community software projects - just send
out 3.12-rc4).

The GTA02-core project has clearly demonstrated that some years ago.
The engineering community development model does not work for
hardware. So there is no need for Free hardware licences to regulate
the interworking of a big worldwide engineering team.

Let's say it with some perspective: everybody should do what he/she
can do best. E.g. donate money so that experts can live from that and
invest their time to develop great hardware that allows to run as much
free software as possible (and is well enough documented for that
purpose - but not more). This does not need "Free Hardware" in your
definition.

> So end of discussion for me, I'll try to avoid replying to any further
> mails on the gta04 topic.

Yes, there is no need for discussions about the "freedom" of GTA04.

But technical discussions are always welcome.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.10.2013 um 05:09 schrieb Paul Wise:

> On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 2:16 AM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
> 
>> I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
> 
> I agree with Bob Ham on this. The source files are not public and even
> the PDFs are not open, they are licensed under a non-commercial
> license (CC-BY-NC-SA).

You are mixing Free dom with Free Beer.

> Even the BeagleBone Black people are able to release some sort of
> hardware source files:
> 
> https://github.com/CircuitCo/-BeagleBone-Black-RevA5/

Yes, they did decide to do it that way.

But: some people are able to jump out of the window. So do you do as well?

Strange argument... jOERG is right...

-- hns


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 04.10.2013 um 21:26 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 20:16 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 04.10.2013 um 19:48 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
>>> I don't think FSF has a definition of "Free Hardware".  Possibly we're
>>> ascribing different meanings to the phrase.
>> 
>> Yes they have one and even do a certification (which would not be
>> possible with a definition):
>> 
>> http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
>> http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Certification_criteria
> 
> They don't use the term "Free Hardware" to describe what they're
> endorsing.

Yes, you are right.

> 
> 
>>> I'm using "Free Hardware"
>>> to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
>>> by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:
>>> 
>>> http://www.ohanda.org/
>>> 
>>>> All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
>>>> when some design decisions had to be made.
>>> 
>>> You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
>>> hardware source files, making the device more "open", is because you
>>> expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
>>> hardware source files is somehow a "design decision"?
>> 
>> ???
>> 
>> I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
> 
> The source files are not public.  The only thing that is public is a PDF
> file containing bitmap images generated from other (Eagle?) source
> files.  The other source files themselves are not available.

Yes.

> I don't understand how you can maintain that the source files are
> public.

If I remember there was a printout of the ssl code on paper, exported as a book
from the US and then typed in again by volunteers to found openssl.

Was it non.open source?

>> Just not in the format you would like to see them but you are free to
>> convert them.
> 
> You don't seem to understand that the difference in "format" is
> critical.  It is the difference that prevents the GTA04 being described
> as free hardware.

Yes, I don't really understand, because I don't care that much about sophistry
and ideology. I want to get things materialize.

And for me any printout that I can read is open source. A missing printout
is closed source. Tertium non datur.

> 
> By your logic, all binary software executables are "open" because the
> "format" can be converted into assembler.  While it may be true that one
> can disassemble binaries and modify the resulting assembler, this is not
> what we're referring to by the phrase "free software".

> 
> Similarly, the GTA04 is not "free hardware".
> 
> 
> And by the way, I looked into your idea of scanning PCB schematics.
> It's bogus.  I tried to see whether any suitable software was available
> but here's what I found instead:
> 
>  "there is no direct way to translate pure graphical data to an
>  intelligent schematic, EDA schematics contain a lot of intelligent
>  information that simply is not available on a sheet of paper"
> http://www.edaboard.com/thread8258.html
> 
>  "No, nothing like that exists. ... Such a tool would be difficult to
>  create, and impossible to realistically support considering the
>  multitude of ways even a single IC could be represented. ... In short,
>  it's unrealistic."
> http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/66432/any-research-to-turn-schematics-as-a-picture-into-a-simulation

> 
>> Here I am referring to the typical discussion about binary blobs and
>> firmware drivers - because we decide(d) to use chips we can buy.
> 
> You're obviously using the phrase "free hardware" to mean hardware that
> can run with entirely free software.  This seems to be non-normal usage.

> For example, see
> 
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_Freedom_Day

Hm. That doesn't tell me much.

Neither the Openmoko, OpenPandora, Ubuntu Edge, GTA04 are
"open hardware" - and never were intended to be. They are
"well documented hardware for free and open software".

Generally, I agree with jOERG's comments.

If you don't like this situation, start your own project and make it
"open hardware" (in your definition), but don't expect us to do that
step for you.

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 04.10.2013 um 19:48 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 21:32 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 03.10.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
>>> I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.
>> 
>> Yes that is correct. It is not Free Hardware in the strict FSF definition
> 
> I don't think FSF has a definition of "Free Hardware".  Possibly we're
> ascribing different meanings to the phrase.

Yes they have one and even do a certification (which would not be
possible with a definition):

http://www.fsf.org/news/endorsement-criteria
http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Hardware/Certification_criteria

>  I'm using "Free Hardware"
> to refer to free or libre hardware with the four freedoms, as described
> by the (unfortunately named) Open Source Hardware and Design Alliance:
> 
>  http://www.ohanda.org/
> 
>> All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
>> when some design decisions had to be made.
> 
> You've previously said that the reason you refuse to release the
> hardware source files, making the device more "open", is because you
> expect money in return.  Are you now saying restricting access to the
> hardware source files is somehow a "design decision"?

???

I already told you that the hardware source files are open and public.
Just not in the format you would like to see them but you are free to
convert them. Nobody is taking this freedom from you...

Here I am referring to the typical discussion about binary blobs and
firmware drivers - because we decide(d) to use chips we can buy.

E.g. the WLAN chip.

-- hns



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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 03.10.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Wed, 2013-10-02 at 23:15 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
>> It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
>> I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
>> for it.
>> 
>> From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
>> from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
>> keep them all alive.
> 
> I would note that the GTA04 is not a Free Hardware project.

Yes that is correct. It is not Free Hardware in the strict FSF definition, and 
it didn't ever try to be.

Like the GTA01, GTA02 and the Ubuntu Edge (if it had reached its crowdfunding 
goals),
Raspberry Pi, BeagleBoard, OpenPandora, ...

All of them have been as open as it could be practically done at the moment
when some design decisions had to be made.

Yes, it is nice to have an unreachable goalto keep all those Sisyphus people 
working :)

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

Am 03.10.2013 um 05:15 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

>> Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
>> person.  And they show after making let's say 20 units.
> 
> As you know, that has not been the experience with the GTA02, where
> audio quality output (works fine for line-out but not for headphones),
> GPS issues, and the "1024 issue" have appeared over time and some of
> them took a long time to track down and fix.
> 
> I can bet that your tests for GTA04 did not catch problems along the
> lines of power consumption issues that will only show up in particular
> usage scenarios that will only be used by the customer number 1462.

Yes, I agree that such tests can only be found by a field test (beta test or 
however
you like to call it).

But they are not "production problems", but problems in the circuit design.
With production I mean making n identical copies of a piece of hardware.
And a production problem is if those are not really identical.

Compared with software, they are not compiler of kernel problems but
in the source code of some application.

Running field tests is a common practice in hardware development and
that is why some guys did loose their new iPhones before they were
announced in some bar... And even Apple did not find the antenna problems
before product launch.

So this type of bugs need a big community of persons really using a design.

> 
>>> Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
>>> attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
>>> like the idea of customizing their phones.
>> That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different
>> connector (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different
>> signals and power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an
>> OMAP3530 or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or
>> i.MX6.  Because they are not designed for this way of use.
> 
> I know.  But I'm not talking about swapping the actual CPU or the
> actual display.  I'm talking about swapping the "CPU module" or the
> "display module".  I.e. create a standardized module interface around
> off-the-shelf (i.e. non-standardized) components.

Yes, there is even a standard for an interface between displays and CPU.
Well, even two or three:

MIPI, LVDS, HDMI/DVI.

> It would have its own cost (in money and in size), but in the long run,
> I hope the benefits of relying on standardized interfaces would make up
> for it.

MIPI is already doing all this:

http://www.mipi.org/specifications
http://mipi.org/about-mipi/mipi-interfaces-mobile-platform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_Industry_Processor_Interface

Everyone is there, ARM, TI, even Apple:

http://www.mipi.org/member-directory

But none of them is building modular devices. I wonder why.

> 
> From what I can tell, Free Hardware projects don't benefit nearly enough
> from each other's efforts.  Not sure we have enough Sisyphus around to
> keep them all alive.

The problem for us is that we do not that easily get MIPI compliant
components or documents (for members only) than others. And we have
to use components that someone is willing to sell to us at a reasonable
price.

BTW: their monthly fees are public (different type of openness :):

http://mipi.org/join-mipi

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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 26.09.2013 um 11:42 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

> Hello,
> 
> Can you send me the URL for GTA04A5 ?

https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04

A5 is the board revision/variant:

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/Versions/

> 
> Best regards
> 
> mparchet
> 
> Envoyé de mon iPhone
> 
>> Le 26 sept. 2013 à 11:18, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:
>>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want 
>>> install or install several os (multi boot) ?
>> 
>> Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
>> orders.
>> 
>> -- hns
>> 
>>> 
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> mparchet
>>> 
>>>> Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"  
>>>> a écrit :
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
>>>>>> of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
>>>>>> production, or availability.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
>>>>> discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
>>>> 
>>>> Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
>>>> person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not 
>>>> need
>>>> to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
>>>> you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
>>>> if you have 2 bad in 20.
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In essence it goes to a modular approach - but "modular" typically drives
>>>>>> cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
>>>>>> and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
>>>>> smaller.
>>>> 
>>>> Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
>>>> I.e. the volume has been constant.
>>>> 
>>>>> And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
>>>>> of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
>>>>> developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
>>>>> in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
>>>> 
>>>>> Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
>>>>> attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
>>>>> like the idea of customizing their phones.
>>>> 
>>>> That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
>>>> connector
>>>> (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
>>>> power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
>>>> or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
>>>> Because they are not designed for this way of use.
>>>> 
>>>>> I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
>>>>> necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
>>>>> works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
>>>>> I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
>>>>>> units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
>>>>>> cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
>>>>>> they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
>>>>>> UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP "modules".
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
>>>>> similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also development&debugging).
>>>>> 
>>>>>> So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
>>>>>> out if it every day.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Exactly.  The various "Free Hardware" communities need to pool
>>>>> their resources.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
>>>> 
>>>> BR,
>>>> Nikolaus
>>>> 
>>>> 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 26.09.2013 um 11:06 schrieb Parchet Michaël:

> Hello,
> 
> Is there a device on production with witch I can choice the os I want install 
> or install several os (multi boot) ?

Almost. The GTA04A5 can go on production (again) as soon as we get enough 
orders.

-- hns

> 
> Best regards
> 
> mparchet
> 
>> Le 25 sept. 2013 à 21:32, "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:
>> 
>>>> I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
>>>> of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
>>>> production, or availability.
>>> 
>>> Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
>>> discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.
>> 
>> Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
>> person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
>> to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
>> you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
>> if you have 2 bad in 20.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> In essence it goes to a modular approach - but "modular" typically drives
>>>> cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
>>>> and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
>>> 
>>> In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
>>> smaller.
>> 
>> Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
>> I.e. the volume has been constant.
>> 
>>> And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
>>> of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
>>> developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
>>> in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.
>> 
>> Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.
>> 
>>> Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
>>> attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
>>> like the idea of customizing their phones.
>> 
>> That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different 
>> connector
>> (there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
>> power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
>> or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
>> Because they are not designed for this way of use.
>> 
>>> I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
>>> necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
>>> works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
>>> I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
>>> 
>>>> It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
>>>> units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
>>>> cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
>>>> they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
>>>> UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP "modules".
>>> 
>>> Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
>>> similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also development&debugging).
>>> 
>>>> So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
>>>> out if it every day.
>>> 
>>> Exactly.  The various "Free Hardware" communities need to pool
>>> their resources.
>> 
>> Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.
>> 
>> BR,
>> Nikolaus
>> 
>> 
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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 25.09.2013 um 20:45 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

>> I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type
>> of reliability you are thinking of: component, software, hardware,
>> production, or availability.
> 
> Small production runs means very few people have a chance of
> discovering, let alone, fixing the various problems that can show up.

Production problems show almost immediately, even if there is only one
person. And they show after making let's say 20 units. I.e. it does not need
to produce let's say 1000 units to find real production problems. And if
you produce 1000 and find that 5 are bad, you don't worry as much as
if you have 2 bad in 20.

> 
>> In essence it goes to a modular approach - but "modular" typically drives
>> cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
>> and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.
> 
> In my part of the world, phones have been getting bigger rather than
> smaller.

Only in dimensions - but they became much slimmer in the same step.
I.e. the volume has been constant.

>  And while modularity has a cost, it can be offset by economies
> of scale (both in terms of production as in terms of
> developping/debugging the kernel support) if that module can be reused
> in more places.  Free Software strives on standards and modularity.

Of course it can. It is a matter of calculation.

> Also, if you can upgrade the screen and the CPU separately, you might
> attract a few other users, who aren't so interested in Freedom but do
> like the idea of customizing their phones.

That is a dream that is not realistic. Every display has a different connector
(there is no standardization!). And every CPU has different signals and
power supply needs. I.e. you can swap an OMAP3505 for an OMAP3530
or an DM3730 but nor for an OMAP4 or OMAP5 or Snapdragon or i.MX6.
Because they are not designed for this way of use.

> I'd be very happy to have a Free Phablet (and I actually wouldn't
> necessarily need it to have cell-phone connectivity, as long as VoIP
> works well), even if that's not my favorite form factor: at this stage,
> I'm willing to settle for anything smallish.
> 
>> It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of
>> units for different projects), so that we get existing modules
>> cheaper.  I.e. if all projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory,
>> they still can be soldered into different devices. Or  WLAN/BT and
>> UMTS are already coming as SoC/MCP "modules".
> 
> Right.  That is a lower-leve of modularity than EOMA but it provides
> similar benefits (not only direct cost, but also development&debugging).
> 
>> So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
>> out if it every day.
> 
> Exactly.  The various "Free Hardware" communities need to pool
> their resources.

Yes but I have no idea how this could happen.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone (right now)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Stefan,

Am 25.09.2013 um 05:01 schrieb Stefan Monnier:

> The main problem I see with such Free and/or Open phone is the "small
> production" syndrome.  Small productions mean high prices and low
> reliability, whereas we need reasonable prices and reliability.

Yes, small production is the key problem.

I don't see reliability as a problem because it depends on what type of 
reliability
you are thinking of: component, software, hardware, production, or availability.

Each one can also be achieved with small production batches and improves
with experience of the team running such a project.

> 
> So we need to focus on making larger production.  For that, we need to
> widen the target "market".

Yes, this is the core idea behind the Neo900 project - find a new "market"
for an almost existing design and modifying it a little while sharing as many
components as possible.

In essence the Letux 3704 and Letux 7004 projects are no different from that.

>  I'm not sure how best to do that, but
> I think the key is in making products that can be used in more
> situations.
> E.g. the EOMA project comes to mind: a single "SoC card" can potentially
> be used in various devices (tablet, router, NAS, ...).
> 
> If the core part of the hardware could be shared between communities
> such as Openmoko (free phone), Raspberry, etc.. then it'd be easier to
> get that core part produced at reasonable cost, and to have a reasonably
> reliable kernel running on it.

In essence it goes to a modular approach - but "modular" typically drives
cost up (at least for the version having the highest production numbers)
and is in strong contradiction with miniaturization of handheld devices.

And another factor is that producing anything in higher quantities in advance
means that someone is willing to put more money on the table in advance,
not knowing if the product finally sells. I.e. the financial risk goes up.

We all know that there are 10 times as many who would like to have something
different than what is available... And sometimes nobody wants what has been
made available.

Some other thought: it must not be a module that *we* produce (like EOMA)
to get production numbers up.

It would be sufficient to bundle buying power (by summing up # of units
for different projects), so that we get existing modules cheaper. I.e. if all
projects would use let's say an DM3730+Memory, they still can be soldered
into different devices. Or WLAN/BT and UMTS are already coming as
SoC/MCP "modules".

So the trick is to use a bigger shopping bag and make a different meal
out if it every day.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Labour conditions and mineral sources

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi kardan,

Am 24.09.2013 um 04:52 schrieb kardan:

> Hi,
> 
> I would like to add production stories to the website. Also more info
> about the companies that produces the prototypes so far would be nice.
> There is nothing available about hardware[1] or involved companies what
> I could put to the website.

For production stories you can look into the youtube videos we have. But there 
isn't more raw material available and I don't think people want to invest time 
to dig into history. So we could work on better documenting future production 
runs.

> 
> Have there been any requests so far or do I need to start from scratch?
> Is there a list with all the parts and selling companies somewhere?

No.

There have been several component sources, the main ones beingAvnet, DigiKey 
and Mouser as distributors and some have changed between. But if you buy at a 
supermarket, you just get the information "these grapes are from spain, greece 
etc. and fulfill this or that quality criteria" but no other details. So all we 
know is that all components are ROHS certified and lead-free solder paste has 
been used.

Another story is that, there have been experiments with different solder pastes 
and flux to find out why there were production problems. AFAIK there is no 
documentation about that. But it turned out that the soldering process itself 
(hot air reflow vs. vapour phase reflow) is the most critical thing.

But I am not sure if this approach leads to anything useful.

It appears to me that you focus in the "fair production" aspect and want to 
/analyse/ what has been done 1-3 years ago. This IMHO does not help anything 
for the future, since a fair produced product must be /designed/ for fair 
production and when we started this topic was not yet known and popular as a 
goal at all.

So if you want to see a GTA04 where each part of the production and device is 
documented you may even have to start to design a new one :(

BR,
Nikolaus


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Fwd: [Community] 5th OpenPhoenux Hard&Software Workshop in Munich, Germany

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Anfang der weitergeleiteten E-Mail:

> Von: "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller" 
> Datum: 11. September 2013 10:22:23 MESZ
> An: OpenPhoenux Community 
> Betreff: [Community] 5th OpenPhoenux Hard&Software Workshop in Munich, Germany
> Antwort an: OpenPhoenux Community 
> 
> Hi all,
> we are happy to invite to the 5th Open(Phoenux) Hard&Software Workshop in 
> Munich, Germany.
> 
> The idea is a 2 days weekend meeting (quite informal) to discuss about many 
> topics around open hard&software
> like Openmoko, GTA04 and other topics. It is a mix of presentations, 
> tutorials, workshops and we also did have
> some soldering session.
> 
> Since this quite well matches with the ideas and targets of the Openphoenux 
> community, we have renamed
> it slightly this year to be an "OpenPhoenux Workshop".
> 
> For details please look at and pre-register (i.e. vote for a weekend and make 
> proposals for topics):
> 
> http://www.ohsw.org/
> 
> There you can also find the topics, slides and some videos from previous 
> years.
> 
> For this year's workhop, please suggest topics you are interested in (e.g. 
> Neo900, future Kernel development, ...).
> 
> Please note that this page is in German as it is (was) a Germany centric 
> workshop in the past, but
> we are open to make it more international - if we have attendees from 
> non-german speaking countries.
> 
> BR,
> Nikolaus
> 
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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 26.08.2013 um 14:35 schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak:

> Hello!
> 
> Short introduction, as I was rather inactive in this community
> recently: I'm dos, long time Openmoko supporter, owner of GTA02 and
> (now broken) Nokia N900. Few years ago I was quite an active developer
> of FSO (opimd) and SHR. Few days ago I've created website draft for
> GTA04.
> 
> As we all know, GTA04 project has few non-technical problems. Poor
> demand is one of them, poor availability of parts is the second one.
> Those two problems together are pretty much show stoppers, cause if we
> fix one, the second one becomes harder.
> 
> But Joerg Reisenweber came up with brilliant idea of adapting GTA04
> board into N900 case. Why?
> - second source N900 housings are very cheap and available on eBay in
> big quantities -> problem with very small amount of Openmoko cases
> solved
> - there are still new spare parts floating around on free market
> 
> But using N900 gives us more:
> - GTA04 with physical keyboard!
> - screen that doesn't appear to be off in full sunlight
> - it seems that while some people like Openmoko case (I do), most
> rather think "it's nice idea, but I wouldn't show up anywhere with
> such a brick" :( N900 case seems to be more commonly accepted by
> public ;)
> 
> Wait, there's even more!
> - if done right, we can engage Maemo community and increase the demand a lot!
> 
> There are LOTS of broken N900s in possession of Maemo community
> members due to problems with faulty USB connector and GSM modem. Many
> of them (owners ;)) are waiting for proper N900 successor that never
> came (N9 is not, and Nokia is not interested in platform anymore at
> all).
> 
> This might be great time to merge efforts from Openmoko/OpenPhoenux
> and Maemo communities. Neo900 project can benefit from both of them -
> there will be QtMoko/SHR/Replicant on the one side (it's just modified
> GTA04, so running all of them should be very easy), and there will be
> Maemo, Meego and maybe more porting initiatives on the other side.
> Joerg's idea includes full port of Maemo 5 (Fremantle) to allow N900
> users to have drop-in upgrade - just like now GTA04 is for GTA01/02
> owners. I think that can increase interest a lot!
> 
> For now we named it "Neo900" - making nods to both N900 and Openmoko roots :)
> 
> I'm super excited about this idea, and it seems that I'm not the only one:
> Look at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142
> 
> You can also read logs from #maemo from yesterday and today:
> https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-25.log.html
> https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-08-26.log.html
> 
> It seems there is some interest, and that's just on Maemo side :)
> 
> What do you think?

Very good idea. If we can use the same basic design both, the GTA04 and
the Neo900 could have many common components. And adding the
number of chips bought of one type will help to reduce the purchase
price of both. So trying to merg this is to the benefit of both.

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: GTA04-N900 vel. Neo900

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 26.08.2013 um 16:24 schrieb Tomas Nackaerts:

> Hi all!
> 
> I actually think this is a great idea! I always liked the N900 formfactor. 
> But 
> is it technically possible? I remember somebody mention that the option modem 
> is quite big?

Yes, but it is the flattest one we could get. And from the photos of the N900 
board I have
seen they even need more space for the separate modem chips.


> And if there will be a redesign the fit the gta04 to the n900 
> will it possible to update the specs a bit? faster cpu and stuff like that?

Faster CPU: yes - the idea is to use the 1GHz DM3730 which is 25-30% faster
(at least at peak performance - if clock is reduced to 200MHz it is also slow).

> But to be honest, i will probably not buy this device if it has the same 
> problems the current gta04 has. (power usage and modem enumeration)

Well, we can't say if it will have the same problems - and even if the problems
if the GTA04 are really problems or just lack of a solution.

And, I must warn a little - a Neo900 design may have other problems
we will only see if it has been built and tested by hundredts of users.


Nikolaus
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 22:08 schrieb Paul Wise:

> For the GTA04 adapter board you are already distributing the files
> that Bob Ham is asking for (AFAICT - not an EE).
> 
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/42/
> 
> The adapter board license (CC-BY-SA) is more friendly than the GTA04
> board license (CC-BY-NC-SA).
> 
> So I'm wondering about the difference between the two.

the idea is that anyone can even use the adaptor board
blueprint even commercially to allow for the best widespread
use. It will be dramatically modified anyways for a real product
so there is no need to restrict it in any way.

For the PDF the licence is NC. But note that this licence
only includes the copyright of the document. Not the board.
Like you can learn from a book and use the contents.
NC because it requires any commercial use to contact us.
Commercial use means that someone wants to copy
parts e.g. into a textbook.
This does not preclude any licence and use, but allows
to think to ask for some charge for the benefit of the project.

Hope this explains the reasons of the different licenses.
Nikolaus




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Re: Going outside - GTA04 website

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 18:11 schrieb Lukas Märdian:

> Am 24.08.2013 17:36, schrieb Sebastian Krzyszkowiak:
>> I've also created quick draft by myself: http://dosowisko.net/gta04/

Wow, that looks good! Almost like a kickstarter project page :)

BR,
Nikolaus


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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 20:49 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On 2013-08-24 18:41, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
>>> I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
>>> others create derivatives of the GTA04.
>> 
>> I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the
>> past hours.
> 
> I see plenty of reasoning about why you think people should avoid trying to 
> create derivatives of the GTA04.

I have never said that. I just say that you can do it based on the material 
(e.g. PDF) that is already available and I will *not* stop anybody from doing 
it.

This is a completely different message, isn't it?
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 20:42 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On 2013-08-24 18:32, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>> 
>>> There is a reason for stipulating this.  Having to convert a work into a
>>> format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier.  It's a
>>> barrier to freedom.  It can be abused.
>> 
>> I only see the "convenience" aspect.
> 
> You haven't addressed my question.  I want to know why you want people to 
> start PCB designs from scratch rather than making use of your work.  Why do 
> you think that "convenience" a bad thing?

Community means that you get something in return for your contribution into the 
community.

In other words: because convenience has a price tag. Only your mother is giving 
you convenience for free...

Or shorter: I am not an 100% altruist. Are you? Then, please donate all the 
money you have and will have to this project.
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 17:27 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 11:26 +, Bob Ham wrote:
> 
>> Even disregarding this reasoning, let's assume that it *is* just about
>> convenience.  Why is that bad?  Why would you not want to help people
>> take the GTA04 design and create a derivative?  Why would you want to
>> make it more difficult?
> 
> I answered your questions about why I am taking part in this discussion.

Yes, this were indeed good answers and I think if you just tell them others
they might jump in and subscribe here.

> I would appreciate it if you would answer my questions about helping
> others create derivatives of the GTA04.

I think i have done this several times (spread over several mails) in the
past hours.


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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 13:26 schrieb Bob Ham:
> 
> There is a reason for stipulating this.  Having to convert a work into a
> format suitable for making modifications represents a barrier.  It's a
> barrier to freedom.  It can be abused.

I don't understand that. The reason of open source is that you can rebuild
the system if the original designer decides not to continue and maintain
the system. For that you need the sources in some open way.

A different story is that FSF did start some collaborative projects based
on the GPL which of course needs people to be able to work on a common
system as a team.

Back to the GTA04, you have all you need in PDF format, i.e. you can
maintain your GTA04 in any way you like. You are absolutely free to
start to rebuild it from scratch or modify it. Nobody is stopping you from
doing it. The licence for the PDF documents permits you to do it.

So what is missing? I only see the "convenience" aspect.

And regarding barriers, I rather think that asking people to install and
learn the same schematics capture system that we use is an increased
barrier over the current situation.

The current mode of collaboration is that every e-mail telling some change
request in plain language is welcome and will be translated to the required
data format to produce a new PDF. This work is done by us - but what is
bad about that? Only that you can't do it. I don't consider that as a problem.
Neither for you nor for me.

And as written somewhere else, there have been several proposals from
the community that were included in the GTA04A3, A4 and A5 designs.
So I still don't get the goal you are arguing for and how it improves the
acceptance of the GTA04.

BR,
Nikolaus
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Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 13:36 schrieb joerg Reisenweber:

> On Sat 24 August 2013 13:00:45 Bob Ham wrote:
>> On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 09:56 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>>> Why are you still a member of this community
>> 
>> I want freedom.  I want a phone that runs 100% free software, including
>> any firmware for component devices and also including firmware running
>> on the baseband processor.  I want the same freedom for the hardware.
>> 
>> The openmoko-community and openphoenux-community mailing lists are
>> places where I expect like-minded people will congregate.
>> 
>>>> and participating in this discussion?
>> 
>> Even though I believe the GTA04 product from Golden Delicious is not
>> viable, I don't expect it will be the last effort to produce a free
>> phone.  Indeed, if Golden Delicious release the source files for the
>> board, the GTA04 design could form a base for the development of the
>> next effort.  I hope this will happen.
> 
> You say "gta04 is a fine basis to do further improvements but it's not worth 
> getting the device itself".
> That's insane. HNS and his small crew invested substantial time and *money* 
> into actually *producing* a working device and all you need to do is buy one. 
> This would allow golddelico to continue their awesome work.

Exactly.

> But what you are interested in seems not at all focused on joining efforts 
> but 
> to "fork" and try on your own if you could do any better than Nikolaus.

If someone is not happy that Goldelico wants to continue and asks for payment,
please DIY. But start on the green field (yes, as prepared by Openmoko) as we
have done.

And please do it cheaper. Maybe I can learn from you how you do that.

> I consider this rogue and silly. 
> Plus you evidently have not the faintest idea of what's the real troubles in 
> hw design and production, otherwise you'd not think you could do 
> substantially 
> better than goldelico. Every fool can draw up a nice (though most certainly 
> not bug-free) schematics, and even creating a PCB layout is not that 
> complicated, there are FOSS tools for that. The problems are somewhere else, 
> and a project that considers PCB gerbers of GTA04 as an indispensable 
> prerequisite for a new design, well such project is doomed to fail from 
> beginning and I'd consider it detrimental to the actually existing and 
> working 
> GTA04 project since - even if not the manpower of those devels who focus on 
> the new project due to lack of expertise and insight into where the major 
> problems of any such project are - it however will deprive GTA04 project of 
> possible customers that might contribute to GTA04 (and successors) with their 
> money, if they weren't lured into waiting for another competing project 
> started by a few guys who obviously think they can do better since they don't 
> know sh*t about hw manufacturing.

++

> 
> my 2 ct about this weird arguing here.
> 
> A word to Nikolaus: I'm a bit sad that you ignore the fact that openmoko 
> *did* 
> share gerbers, PADS project files, BOM, whatever, on request. We shared 
> everything, sometimes under a NDA when we had to do that way.

Sorry, but I didn't know that until now. I just knew about the PDF schematics
and the BOM and the 3D CAD data and the component placement plan.

This was enough to start the GTA04 project, so I did not research further into
what else would have been available on request.

> And maybe you 
> didn't know but Wolfgang pestered all EE pretty badly to allow community 
> contribution, just we never really could come up with a workflow how to make 
> such process work. The problem with that is the expertise of community 
> contributions which take ten times the manpower of company EE staff to 
> explain 
> why it can't get done this way, than what company EE would need to come up 
> with an own better draft for the same thing. 

Oh yes, many cooks spoil the soup.

In my experience it needs a small team at one location (so that you can
really meet for discussions). And a team that can work in stealth mode for
some time to come up with a proposal.

> OM been a company with "lots of money" so we didn't worry too much about 
> community competing projects, and eventually I even convinced Sean and 
> Wolfgang and others that no commercial competitor will snatch away and copy-
> cat our product either.
> Bottom line: to claim OM never allowed community contribution and never 
> shared 
> PCB or project files is pretty incorrect.

Ok, now I know. Thanks for clarification!

But anyways, it was not necesssary to "fork" the project to develop a GTA04.

Develop

Re: Crowdfunding an Ubuntu smartphone

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Radek,

Am 24.08.2013 um 14:22 schrieb Radek Polak:

> On Friday, August 23, 2013 10:21:33 PM arne anka wrote:
> 
>> the missing money is just the indicator for this project's failure to
>> create sufficient public interest or even awareness.
>> while the GTA01/2 was a nice idea, it was already slightly outdated when
>> it appeared -- and since then nothing has changed, the gap between what's
>> considered standard and what the GTAxx is prepared to deliver rather has
>> widened.
>> 
>> to get even close to standard (and thus being a realistic alternative for
>> smartphone users), the project would need backing of a far more potent
>> entity than this tiny community is -- both money- and publicitywise.
>> 
>> since the GTA02 i spend about 2000€ on this project, maybe more (well, i
>> can afford it and it was worth supporting the idea behind it), and in my
>> very personal and subjective opinion, the GTA04 has been a huge
>> disappointment. i wouldn't spend the equivalent of a highend, state-of-art
>> smartphone or even tablet just to buy yet another even more outdated
>> device, free or not. compared to the shortcomings of the GTA04, even
>> complete freedom is not sufficient to justify that amount of money.
>> 
>> whenever i told somebody who had heard of OpenMoko that there's a
>> successor, they were surprised -- and when i told them the features and
>> the price, i got an incredulous grin and the question if someone really
>> believed that people would spend that amount for such a device.
>> 
>> i am still undecided if i should admire or pity the thread starter, if he
>> honestly believed that this community would be able to succeed where
>> ubuntu failed -- and on top of that to jump from todays GTA04 to the
>> device as imagined by ubuntu ...
>> 
>> all things considered, the realistic path is imo to cater to a tiny niche
>> of institutional customers -- like jörg(?) proposed.
>> while i am personally rather fond of the original GTA01 case (and think
>> that's almost the only tangible unique feature), i, too, would prefer it
>> to pick up where the n900 left. maybe then it could even tap into the pool
>> of still active n900 fans ...
> 
> Very well written. I can add a few more points.
> 
> For me GTA04 is not usable as daily phone. It's now collecting dust in shelf. 
> Why?
> 
> 1/ poor power management
> 2/ bugged reenumerating modem
> 
> GTA04 is good enough only in some situations. E.g. ok if i carry it to work 
> where i can anytime charge it. When i am on bike 150km from home i must have 
> reliable phone in case that the bike breaks up or in case that i need map.
> 
> I took GTA04 with 2 batteries and N900 on my bike trip this summer. I used 
> N900 as a phone with SIM card. GTA04 was switched off - i just used it for 
> GPS. But after 4 hours one battery was empty and second battery was 50% empty 
> during one night in suspend. On the other hand N900 was working whole 4 days. 
> I used it for calls, for wifi in camps and in the end even for GPS.

That is something I still don't understand. From a power budget the modem is
specified to have 3-10 mA in suspend while registered to a base station.

I have even verified this with an ampere-meter.

And there is only one potential deviation - if there is some attenuation (e.g. 
wall)
there may be a situation where the modem receives the base station well and
tries to answer/register. But since the base station does not receive it at 
all, it
tries with high power. In this case the modem current increases to 50-100 mA.

BTW: this is the same with almost all mobile devices.

So it must be something in the OMAP system and that is IMHO the same as the
N900 has... So pure kernel code.

BTW: this would not change by redesigning the GTA04 into a spare N900 case...

> 
> I though that self-made open source phone will have good power management. I 
> though it will be easy or at least possible to identify where the power goes. 
> I am even more dissapointed that noone except Neil Brown tried to improve the 
> situation.

Yes, that made me wonder as well. It appears that it needs some very special 
skills
we don't have in our community. Or we have but those members have no time.

> Event GTA02 is s much better in this area. For me this is so 
> important that GTA02 is now much more usable then GTA04. It's like having car 
> that can go just 30km.
> 
> And the reenumerating modem - i really dont understand why we havent tried 
> newer firmware. For me missed calls is quite serious problem.

Because the upgrade firmware did not run on the kernels for unknown reasons
(failed with segfaults). And because we must make RMS believe that there is
no way to upgrade the modem firmware from user space.

> I dont understand why produce more phones until these problems are fixed.

I don't know how to fix these problems without producing more phones. Especially
there is one issue in the IrDA/RS232 driver which prevents the kernel to power 
down
both and the ITG3200 m

Re: production & displays

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 12:57 schrieb kardan:

> On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:36:42 +0200
> "Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller"  wrote:
> 
>> If 200 people agree to put 599 EUR on the table we could start
>> production tomorrow (well, we need 6-8 weeks to get the components)
>> and 200 GTA04 boards would be available in November.
>> 
>> We could also order 200 3D-printed cases, earpieces etc. to make
>> complete phones. One issue is that we have just ~70 display modules,
>> and they are out of production for a long time. But there may be some
>> remaining stock in Asia, so it appears to be a solvable problem.
>> 
>> Doing a redesign for a different display, different case (N900) is
>> also possible, but takes more time (estimate 4-6 months).
>> 
>> But it also needs 200 * 599 EUR on the table. Not to start design or
>> production (that has become my hobby), but to buy components.
> 
> I don't get this passage. Note I am not a hardware expert so it is not
> clear to me how 200 boards can be available in november if a redesign
> with a new display takes nearly half a year.

The displays (Toppoly) are no longer in production but we have some in stock.
And, the GTA04A5 board is designed to use them. So it is just about producing
again based on the existing design.

Changing the display to a model that we can buy in any quantity from running
production needs to redesign the PCB and test and qualify that for production.

> Where are 130+ displays supposed to materialze until november? I

Sometimes, companies buy components and after 2 or 3 years they end production
of the devices using these components. And then, they try to sell their 
overstock.
There are component brokers who are experienced in getting such "old"/"obsolete"
components.

> understand your assumption that there is some stock somewhere and would
> love to see that proven with a reliable price tag.

That has not been researched - and may change every day. I can't tell if it is
easy or difficult before someone starts to really buy them. It may be just some
Alibaba search or a search for a needle in a haystack.

But *I* will not start this research before it is clear that we need them, 
because it
would be waste of my lifetime...

-- hns


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Re: Reasons why people could be interested in this community

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 24.08.2013 um 01:51 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

> 
> 
> On the Road --- hns
> 
> Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham :
> 
>> On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>> 
>>>> On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>>>> Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I don't understand.  What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned.  Here you seem to be 
>>>>>> implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money 
>>>>>> being available.  How is that transition going to happen?  What's going 
>>>>>> to cause the green light to go on?
>>>>> 
>>>>> People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
>>>>> too expensive.
>>>> 
>>>> What is going to cause people to decide that?
>>> 
>>> What do you think the reason is?
>> 
>> I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that
>> decision.  This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see.  You said
>> you're waiting.  What do you believe is going to happen?  What are you
>> waiting *for*?  What is going to occur that will cause people to decide
>> to spend money on the GTA04?
> 
>> I can't see any reason.  A train stopped at a disconnected signal light
>> waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me.
> 
> Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this 
> discussion?

This is a honest question. What is your answer?

The reason why I ask is that if you can tell yourself why you are so 
enthusiastically discussing these topics, you must have some reason.

And other people may find your reasons interesting and could potentially agree 
to them. This would help to grow the community.

So I think you can develop some helpful answer to your question by answering my 
question.

-- hns
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Re: Releasing GTA04 hardware source files (was: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi Bob,

Am 24.08.2013 um 02:10 schrieb Bob Ham:

> On Sat, 2013-08-24 at 00:20 +0200, joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> 
>> Can't you finally come up with some *suggestions* or - even 
>> better - real actions that would help?
> 
> At present the community is beholden to a particular company which
> produces something the community depends on.  

No, the community does not "depend" on it. There is a company that feels
itself a member of this community and has developed an offer everyone can
accept or decline.

> That company has a
> monopoly on production within the community.

No.

>  It does not share the
> source files for its work and does not allow others to contribute to
> designs.

Yes. This is no difference to Openmoko, Inc. did since 2007.

> This is the same situation as a community that is beholden to a company
> producing proprietary software.

No.

>  The GTA04 is like proprietary hardware.

No.

For proprietary hardware you have no schematics, no clear identification of
the components, some custom made components without any information,
and no documentation which GPIO is doing what.

> We have schematics in a .pdf file but nothing else.  

Yes. And the PDF is the source. You can run OCR and convert it into any
format you like. And modify it as you like. What else do you expect? More
convenience?

The Schematics and the component placement chart of the GTA02 - both
as a printable PDF - were sufficient to design the GTA04 board... So it is not
lack of information if nobody is picking up the GTA04 design...

> There is no shared
> repository containing the source files for the schematics or the PCB
> designs.  Nobody can commit design fixes.  

Is this a requirement for FLOSS that you can commit anything directly to the
original repository? Do you have commit access to the master branch of
kernel.org?

Anyways, you can make change proposals and there are others who
"sign off" and accept your patches into the master if they fit into the
project goal and fit to some design style and rules.

So if you want something to be changed, please write me an e-mail (in
natural language) with your patches. Or propose it here on this list.

> The community is not
> iterating the GTA04 design.  The community is not working together to
> create a free phone.  Instead, all we do is discuss and argue about one
> company's product.

The community can help much better in other areas, e.g. marketing, spreading
the word, software, etc. because high density PCB design needs a very specific
type of knowledge that isn't widely available. And, the PCB must be 100% correct
or even 100.00%. so it is better to have a very small team.

> A lot of people have come up with various ideas for modifications to the
> GTA04.  Some of them simply require some soldering which is no problem.
> However, some require a redesign of the board.  To my recollection,
> nobody has ever pointed out that this isn't possible unless Golden
> Delicious do it.  The fact that only Golden Delicious can do it is bad.

No. Because you can do it as well.

You can start to learn how to design PCBs, aquire some PCB design tool,
capture or convert the schematics, and make your own layout. Then, find
someone who does production for you.

> 
> Despite describing the GTA04 as "Open Hardware"¹ and stating that the
> aims of the community are for DIY hardware², Golden Delicious does not
> release any source files for the hardware it produces.  There is no
> community of hardware hackers contributing to shared PCB designs.

Because designing such a difficile and miniaturized device is more challenging
than the average hardware hacker is capable to do.

> I suggest that the community changes from consuming hardware designed
> and built by a single controlling entity to producing one or more Open
> Source Hardware³ phone designs which can be taken as a base, modified
> and manufactured by any party.  For example, a board design could be
> used in the same fashion as the GTA04, as a replacement for GTA01/02
> boards but could also be modified by the N900 community to provide an
> updated board for their phone.

It is possible to design a board for that by the procedure descibed above.

> I suggest that Golden Delicious release the source files for the GTA04
> board in order to assist this effort and act as a base for the first
> community phone design.

Essentially you are mixing openness and modifiability of source and
compiled binary.

The source in such a hardware project is the schematics (which is
open for the GTA04) and the compiled result is the PCB (which is
not easily modifiable, even with proper tools).

It is like you are asking an open source project to publish compiled
binaries, before you call it "open source". IMHO this is only convenience.

Finally some more technical aspect: it is not easy to just modify the
PCB to fit into an N900 case. You more or less have to redo the whole
PCB layout process (i.e. the compilation), although the Schematics can
be

Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

On the Road --- hns

Am 23.08.2013 um 22:45 schrieb Bob Ham :

> On Fri, 2013-08-23 at 17:30 +0200, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>> Am 23.08.2013 um 15:45 schrieb Bob Ham:
>> 
>>> On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>>> Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I don't understand.  What is the green light with respect to the GTA04?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned.  Here you seem to be 
>>>>> implying some kind of transition from there being no money to money being 
>>>>> available.  How is that transition going to happen?  What's going to 
>>>>> cause the green light to go on?
>>>> 
>>>> People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it is
>>>> too expensive.
>>> 
>>> What is going to cause people to decide that?
>> 
>> What do you think the reason is?
> 
> I can't see anything that people will cause people to make that
> decision.  This is why I'm wondering what cause *you* see.  You said
> you're waiting.  What do you believe is going to happen?  What are you
> waiting *for*?  What is going to occur that will cause people to decide
> to spend money on the GTA04?

> I can't see any reason.  A train stopped at a disconnected signal light
> waiting for it to go green, doesn't make any sense to me.

Why are you still a member of this community and participating in this 
discussion?


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Re: community Digest, Vol 353, Issue 3

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 23.08.2013 um 17:05 schrieb kardan:

> On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 13:45:20 +
> Bob Ham  wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-08-23 11:27, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
>>> Am 23.08.2013 um 13:18 schrieb Bob Ham:
>>> 
>>>> On 2013-08-23 10:56, Paul Wise wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:47 PM, Bob Ham wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't understand.  What is the green light with respect to the 
>>>>>> GTA04?
>>>>> 
>>>>> That was already mentioned; money for components being available.
>>>> 
>>>> The fact that there is *no* money was mentioned.  Here you seem to 
>>>> be implying some kind of transition from there being no money to
>>>> money being available.  How is that transition going to happen?
>>>> What's going to cause the green light to go on?
>>> 
>>> People deciding to spend some money instead of complaining that it
>>> is too expensive.
> 
> We all know
> * there is no customer
> * there is no money
> * there is no campaign
> * there is no prospect
> * there is no website (that could attract anybody)
> * people on this list gave up their dream or just don't care
> 
> May the last point be controversial, one has to admit that the below
> following thoughts are neither hard to obtain nor new. 
> 
>> What is going to cause people to decide that?
> 
> The well meaning father interrogating it's children. I don't take it as
> trolling, as this community is lacking exactly that kind of straight
> thinking. So I try to answer.
> 
> First one could ask, how many people are interested in such a phone?
> According to the just failed campaign a lot.

I would consider 20k backers of the Ubuntu Edge not as "a lot". Please
calculate what 300 million smartphones (mostly iOS and Android) sold
per year means to be sold per hour. That is "a lot".

And, the Ubuntu Edge did not have the same targets as anyone of us has.
Rather, they did not even care much about openness and freedom. Their
key goal is about "convergence" between computer and smartphone and
to catch attention by Über-features.

> 
> Second also money was not their problem, but the ridiculous threshold.

Which threshold? The 32 million USD? Well, they have to solve the same
issue that we have: building a lower number of units (which a lower threshold
would imply) increases component and production cost.

I.e. if they had set the limit at 12 Mio they would have had to increase the 
price
to 795 USD.

At 795 USD they would have reached 8 Mio only.

So they would have had to set the price at 895 USD. etc.

I don't think the threshold was just some arbitrary value. It was based on the
economics inside the production process.

> 
> Third our community watched them failing without even trying to raise
> awareness for our community phone.

Well, what could we have done? How could we have changed their
campain?

No, I think we can only learn from the outcome of their campaign,
which we are currently discussion if I remember the starting point 
correctly...

> Fourth there is no nice advertising I could forward to people in
> my family (or anybody with money). It's just all made by and for nerds.

Because it is not a device for the general public, but nerds.

You can't advertize meat to a vegetarian.

> Fifth there is some expectation in the air me to come up with a new
> website design. So I better stop here for the next hours to hack
> something which will hopefully be better than what we have.
> 
> I doubt it will make the key change alone. But it's already good to have
> a nice and clear website with downloadable PDF to print out posters to
> hang out in shops/hackerspaces/cityhalls/trains or any kind of
> alternative shops like the ones where you get already registered ready
> to use SIM cards from as these are the places where people care about
> anonymity.

What should be the message of such posters?

-- hns


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