Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

2015-11-06 9:41 GMT+00:00 Robert Jasiek : > On 06.11.2015 10:35, Aja Huang wrote: > >> another very strong Chinese pro Shi Yue >> (No.3 at Go ratings >> http://www.goratings.org/, current No.2 in China) said he likes to take >> White

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On 06.11.2015 10:47, Aja Huang wrote: area scoring, in which case the score is almost always odd. Black wins: odd score White wins: even score -- robert jasiek ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On 06.11.2015 10:47, Aja Huang wrote: area scoring, in which case the score is almost always odd. Black wins: odd score White wins: even score Aja means pre-komi. It's always odd (except special seki). Jonas ___ Computer-go mailing list

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

I have repeatedly seen people assert that komi must be different for players of different skill levels, and have repeatedly questioned it, but I have never seen anyone try to substantiate the claim. People who believe it find it obvious, but I don't. There are two pieces of evidence that I can

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

Many years ago, when "auction komi" was tried out at a London Open Go tournament, I collected statistics on what the winning komi bid was among players of various strengths. There was a positive correlation between playing strength and komi. Of course this does not answer the question, it just

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

I do doubt that there is sufficient data available on Go as it is not popular enough. But lets face it 7 points guaranteed profit is way easier to utilize than initiative. For chess it clearly visible quotation from wikipedia "database between players with similar Elo ratings, commissioned by GM

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:44 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: > However, there's a powerful counterargument to the above I can put the first > black stone on the board as well as any professional can. And now, assuming I > am playing an equally weak human, it's White who suffers most from

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 09:03:38AM +0200, Petri Pitkanen wrote: > 2015-11-05 0:04 GMT+02:00 Hideki Kato : > > > The correct komi value assuming both players are perfect. Or, black > > utilize his advantage (maybe in an early stage) perfectly. Actual > > players, even

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

I agree with Robert. 7 is still a hot candidate for all board sizes. Stefan ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

Wrong kind of information if the issue is komi(or white win rate) vs streng. EGD seems to have something but with grabby interface. So to get any meaninfull data one would have request Nothing as useful as chess-results http://www.chess-results.com/tnr184639.aspx?lan=1=2=1=821 exists where a

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

Of course. You always use win rate, never margin for that type of analysis. On Nov 5, 2015, at 9:57 AM, Darren Cook wrote: >> Of course, that's anecdata...anyone is welcome to prove or disprove this >> old claim by analyzing the stats on KGS, or Tygem or wherever else. > >

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

We know the true values for some small boards that were solved, and what some strong human players believed those values should be before they were solved. I think that for all cases the humans where either correct, or under-estimating. I don't remember any over-estimations. Here are some cases

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On Thu, Nov 05, 2015 at 02:42:20PM +0200, Petri Pitkanen wrote: > I do doubt that there is sufficient data available on Go as it is not > popular enough. How much data is enough? The games from KGS alone ought to be in millions, and even EGD must carry at least tens of thousands of serious

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

Of course. You always use win rate, never margin for that type of analysis. Problem is, this is not relevant unless we have games with different komi. The winrate depends as much on the width of the distribution as on the median. Hence for weak players, it may go closer to 50%, even if the

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

and in Go one move advantage need that your 1st pro-level mode works together with your subsequent non-pro-moves 2015-11-05 14:55 GMT+02:00 Christoph Birk : > > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:44 AM, Nick Wedd wrote: > > However, there's a powerful

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

The correct komi value assuming both players are perfect. Or, black utilize his advantage (maybe in an early stage) perfectly. Actual players, even strong pros, are not perfect and cannot fully utilize their advantages. As a conclusion, white is favored. Hideki Aja Huang:

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

Let alone we do not have even sufficient understanding of perfect play to say what is correct komi in absolute sense. Nor it is it even meaningful concept. Correct komi is a komi that produces about 50/50 result. Obviously komi that will result in 50/50 for professionals will probably favour white

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

I think he's right. I'm fairly sure 7.5 is a second-player win on 9x9, and for larger boards intuitively it makes sense that the komi should be the same or lower. Also, we know that perfect komi is an integer, for area scoring the likely candidates are 5 and 7, and for territory scoring (and some

Re: [Computer-go] Komi 6.5/7.5

On 04.11.2015 13:59, Aja Huang wrote: Ke Jie said in his opinion on 19x19 komi 6.5 or 7.5 favors White. Go theoretical considerations (see Joseki 2 - Strategy, chapter 4.4.1) estimate the per move value of the first move as ca. 14 points, so suggest the komi 7. Pro game statistics, with