Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting Reid Katan :


BTW, notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I haven't
seen him around for a while.


Oops. That not supposed to be a command that everyone take note.  
Here's what it's *supposed* to say:


BTW, *I* notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I haven't
seen him around for a while.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting mike :


Anyone who doesn't back Tom's fascist OS view is biased.  Get in line you
dolts!


I don't even care about OS. I'm not even asking about TaskBar. I just  
want to know what it is about putting the Dock on the side that works  
so much better. I'll never get an answer from Tom, I can see that  
already. Maybe when Betty gets around to it she can enlighten me (and  
anyone else that might wonder).


BTW, notice that Jeff Wright finally got tired of Tom's shit. I  
haven't seen him around for a while.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting tjpa :


On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote:
Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal.   
The right click menu is the same. I see no difference.


Biased observer.


Do you treat your customers with such contempt? How do you even still  
have a business? I can see it now:


Customer: "Which page layout program would be best for me?"

Tom: "Well if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you!"


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

Anyone who doesn't back Tom's fascist OS view is biased.  Get in line you
dolts!

On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:22 AM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote:
>
>> Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The
>> right click menu is the same. I see no difference.
>>
>
> Biased observer.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 22, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Reid Katan wrote:
Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal.  
The right click menu is the same. I see no difference.


Biased observer.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting Jordan :



Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets "full". When   
you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or   
horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second   
row?


They shrink.
I like mine on the right.
Humans eyes scan better in the horizontal plane. Maybe that plays some
small roll in why it's better to put the dock on the side.
Unless, of course, it's better to put it on the bottom.


Thank you! An actual answer. Of course, once you've scanned to the  
right to find the Dock, you have to scan vertically to find what  
you're looking for. (-:


Tom. I tried it. The icons bounce a different direction. Big deal. The  
right click menu is the same. I see no difference.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Jordan]

Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets "full". When 
you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or 
horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second row?

They shrink.
I like mine on the right.
Humans eyes scan better in the horizontal plane. Maybe that plays some 
small roll in why it's better to put the dock on the side.

Unless, of course, it's better to put it on the bottom.


It seems like you'd run out of space faster if your Dock is on the 
side, and I'm assuming a "heavy user" would tend to have more icons.





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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[t.piwowar]

On Dec 21, 2009, at 8:27 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

It is said that a "heavy user" may want the dock to the right or
left of the screen.  I dunno exactly what a "heavy user" is


This is looking more and more like the well-known PBCAK situation.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting "phartz...@gmail.com" :


On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:


Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or
right makes it any better?


but that ain't me, so I keep mine at the bottom because I am used to
that positioning and it also provides more room for whatever I want to
have the dock display.  Sometimes the dock accidentally activates, but
it is not aggravating.


Right. I don't know what the Dock does when it gets "full". When  
you've got more icons than can fit in a given space (vertical or  
horizontal). Do the icons shrink to make more room? start a second row?


It seems like you'd run out of space faster if your Dock is on the  
side, and I'm assuming a "heavy user" would tend to have more icons.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

That's just it, this is all opinion, not rules.  Heavy user could be someone
that has dozens of apps open all the time, or it could be someone who edits
video 12 hours a day.  People learn best what suits them, but if they don't
know the parameters of the area in which they are working it's hard to get
things just right.  Some might not even realize the dock can be moved.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 6:27 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:
>
> > Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or
> > right makes it any better?
>
>   It would probably minimize the chance that the dock, if hidden,
> would become visible if accidentally activated while navigating an
> open window that reached to the bottom of the screen.
>
>  It is said that a "heavy user" may want the dock to the right or
> left of the screen.  I dunno exactly what a "heavy user" is, perhaps
> someone who keeps a dozen apps and associated windows open at once,
> but that ain't me, so I keep mine at the bottom because I am used to
> that positioning and it also provides more room for whatever I want to
> have the dock display.  Sometimes the dock accidentally activates, but
> it is not aggravating.
>
>  Steve
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:

> Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or
> right makes it any better?

  It would probably minimize the chance that the dock, if hidden,
would become visible if accidentally activated while navigating an
open window that reached to the bottom of the screen.

  It is said that a "heavy user" may want the dock to the right or
left of the screen.  I dunno exactly what a "heavy user" is, perhaps
someone who keeps a dozen apps and associated windows open at once,
but that ain't me, so I keep mine at the bottom because I am used to
that positioning and it also provides more room for whatever I want to
have the dock display.  Sometimes the dock accidentally activates, but
it is not aggravating.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

It doesn't make it better, which is to say it might make it better for you,
but not everyone.  I didn't like it on the sides, bottom or the top for me.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:

> Quoting tjpa :
>
>  about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an
>> open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is
>> best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how
>> most heavy users use it.
>>
>
> Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left or
> right makes it any better?
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting tjpa :


about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an
open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is
best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how
most heavy users use it.


Pardon the noob question, but what about placing the Dock on the left  
or right makes it any better?



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 1:52 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> OS 9 did not have that function. It had the Launcher, which was much less
> capable than the Dock. Maybe this will give you some perspective...

  Hey, I said the dock-like utility that ran under OS 9 was not coded
by Apple, but was available as an add-on.


> I guess you can buy those if you prefer spending money over learning about
> what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an open mind
> you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is best located it on
> the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how most heavy users use it.

  Sure.  The OS X dock is fine with me, and I was not the one to bring
its shortcomings to light here.  I do think that having the ability to
click at the screen bottom or edges as an option to merely passing the
mouse pointer over those areas to have the dock appear is a good idea
if the user is having problems with the dock popping up when they are
working in finder windows.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 21, 2009, at 9:50 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

What made you think I was whining?  I was simply describing
something available under OS 9 that could be seen as working better
than a similar arrangement in OS X.


OS 9 did not have that function. It had the Launcher, which was much  
less capable than the Dock. Maybe this will give you some perspective...

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/10/road_to_mac_os_x_leopard_dock_1_6.html

Back in OS 9 days, some people used DragThing (www.dragthing.com) and  
its developer is still keeping it up to date. There is also Dock-It,  
DragStrip, and Drop Drawers.

http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2004/11/dock.ars

I guess you can buy those if you prefer spending money over learning  
about what is already there, but I think if you approach this with an  
open mind you will find that the Dock really works very well. It is  
best located it on the left (or right) and kept visible. That is how  
most heavy users use it.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 7:10 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> Why not just check the check box that OS X provides to disable that
> function?
>
> Of course then there would be nothing to whine about!

  Eh, what box do I check that lets me to click the bottom or edges of
the screen to cause the dock to appear or disappear?  That was the
function I was describing.

  Under OS X, I can either have the dock always be on-screen or I can
have it disappear or reappear when I move the mouse pointer to the
bottom or edges of the screen or move it away from the bottom or edges
of the screen.  I see no option in the dock preferences that provides
for the dock to appear upon clicking at the bottom or edges of the
screen.

  What made you think I was whining?  I was simply describing
something available under OS 9 that could be seen as working better
than a similar arrangement in OS X.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting db :


But only a few saw any sense in what I was asking / saying... I got a
whole lot of Mac indignation and we're too smart for such / how stupid
are you to be wanting / asking for such.

Not exactly an uplifting conversation for me 


Yeah, well, The List has a tendency to do that. )-:


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

Yes... it's been a pretty long string. 

Only the Dock icons go poof but uninitiated Mac users have trouble 
figuring out why the menu bar has changed suddenly on them (poof!) ...  
and why sometimes there are icons on the dock for windows etc and 
sometimes there aren't (poof!).  

I was wondering if there were Dock add ons that anybody knew about to 
help with those finder and dock issues (to make them more intuitive and 
all encompassing... more similar to the Windows and Linux approach) and  
was also wondering why those issues still existed when Apple is 
otherwise usually very intuitive and untroublesome.


But only a few saw any sense in what I was asking / saying... I got a 
whole lot of Mac indignation and we're too smart for such / how stupid 
are you to be wanting / asking for such.


Not exactly an uplifting conversation for me 

db


Reid Katan wrote:

Quoting db :


Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work.   They do
but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at
this point in the dev cycle.  They particularly don't work as well as
they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows
mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme
... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously.


Maybe I missed something, but I have no idea what you're talking about 
"icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof". When you 
close a program, it's Dock icon *might* disappear. That happens when 
you don't have a "short-cut" icon parked there.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 20, 2009, at 10:59 AM, db wrote:
Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work.   They do  
but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could  
at this point in the dev cycle.  They particularly don't work as  
well as they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and  
windows mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other  
extreme ... for users with many windows and projects going on  
simultaneously.


There is nothing "mysterious" about "poof." The way the Dock work is  
very easy to teach. One drags icons on. One drags icons off. One drags  
to move icons from one location to another. That's really simple. Why  
do you insist that it should be made complicated? And as I mentioned  
before, "poof" and other Dock changes can be disabled via a check box  
if you insist.


If you want to whine about the Dock you should be whining about the  
unnecessary distinction that puts apps on the left side and other  
stuff on the right side. That is a useless and arbitrary distinction  
that new users find puzzling. "Poof" is not puzzling.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 20, 2009, at 8:21 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

You had mentioned the OS X dock, usually located at the bottom of
the screen, and how it is often activated accidentally while
navigating open windows.  In OS 9, there was, and still is, a little
third-party application that launched at startup.  It mimicked and
looked like the OS X dock, and allowed the user to install application
icons and launch those apps from there just as the OS X dock does.


Why not just check the check box that OS X provides to disable that  
function?


Of course then there would be nothing to whine about!


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting db :


Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work.   They do
but in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at
this point in the dev cycle.  They particularly don't work as well as
they should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows
mysteriously seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme
... for users with many windows and projects going on simultaneously.


Maybe I missed something, but I have no idea what you're talking about  
"icons and menus and windows mysteriously seem to go poof". When you  
close a program, it's Dock icon *might* disappear. That happens when  
you don't have a "short-cut" icon parked there.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

t.piwowar wrote:

On Dec 19, 2009, at 5:23 PM, db wrote:
That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's 
OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty.   If the 
IT literate don't/ can't  see the problem, it will never be fixed and 
the system remains unaccountable.


Except you were not. At most you were arguing that you would have 
designed some things differently and insisting that any deviation from 
you desires was a defect. That just isn't so.

We have a difference in opinion then...


I did explain how there were perfectly valid, but different, methods 
that worked just fine. I even gave an example of something that really 
was a defect.
Different methods can be equivalent.  I just don't think that is so in 
this case.


Not that the Mac Dock, Finder and Menu systems don't work.   They do but 
in my opinion, they just don't work as well as they easily could at this 
point in the dev cycle.  They particularly don't work as well as they 
should for newbies ... whose icons and menus and windows mysteriously 
seem to go poof ... and for people on the other extreme ... for users 
with many windows and projects going on simultaneously.


The fact that Linux, which borrows heavily from both Mac and Win, chose 
not to emulate those aspects from Mac is ready testament to that in my 
opinion.


db



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 5:23 PM, db  wrote:

> That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad
> points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty.

  You had mentioned the OS X dock, usually located at the bottom of
the screen, and how it is often activated accidentally while
navigating open windows.  In OS 9, there was, and still is, a little
third-party application that launched at startup.  It mimicked and
looked like the OS X dock, and allowed the user to install application
icons and launch those apps from there just as the OS X dock does.
However, it provided for either an automatic opening of the dock
whenever the mouse pointer hit the bottom of the screen, a la the OS X
dock, or it provided for a non-automatic opening of the dock by having
the user click on the bottom of the screen, or wherever the dock was
placed, to activate it, thus avoiding unintended opening of the dock.
It seems to me that Apple could do the same with their dock, and that
would definitely be an improvement for those who want to use the dock,
yet want to avoid activating it when it is not desired.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[t.piwowar]

On Dec 19, 2009, at 5:23 PM, db wrote:
That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's  
OS bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty.   If  
the IT literate don't/ can't  see the problem, it will never be  
fixed and the system remains unaccountable.


Except you were not. At most you were arguing that you would have  
designed some things differently and insisting that any deviation from  
you desires was a defect. That just isn't so.


I did explain how there were perfectly valid, but different, methods  
that worked just fine. I even gave an example of something that really  
was a defect.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

You mean like the ordinary citizens??  Heaven forbid!

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:52 PM, t.piwowar  wrote:

>
> Constant denigration of government is a strategy designed to discourage as
> many citizens as possible from participating. That makes it easier for
> private interests to control it.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[t.piwowar]

On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:14 PM, mike wrote:
My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too  
big they
are unaccountable because they don't have to be.  WM was untouched  
for years
because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap  
because
no matter what they know they will keep getting  
moneyunaccountable.


I think there is much you don't know about the Post Office. They are  
working very hard to provide service in a very tough environment.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[t.piwowar]

On Dec 19, 2009, at 3:42 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
You are wrong about government. YOU/WE are the government. When  
elected representatives don't behave, fire them--vote for someone  
who's better--campaign, inform if you have to do that. If government  
is unaccountable, it's the fault of people who were distracted or  
uniformed enough to vote for crooks instead of people who represent  
them. You can't have someone do everything you want, but when it's  
70-80%, that's pretty good.


Constant denigration of government is a strategy designed to  
discourage as many citizens as possible from participating. That makes  
it easier for private interests to control it.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Before we keep knocking the PO let us remember.  They are mandated by 
the government to deliver mail to each and every household in the 
US.  Plus they have to do this at the same price point no matter what.


They are not allowed to manage themselves.

Now this does not excuse misalignment, and some other problems that 
are rampant.  (Call it poor work habits.)


I have folks that work for the PO and I know some good folks that 
work for the PO.  The biggest complaint, is too many folks telling 
the PO how to manage itself, and no one giving the PO the tools to do so.


One huge money saving tool?  Stop all Saturday deliveries.  Do you 
think that one will fly?


Canada stopped it 25 years ago.

Stewart

At 02:14 PM 12/19/2009, you wrote:

My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they
are unaccountable because they don't have to be.  WM was untouched for years
because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because
no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

In politics and computers, too many feel a different view is stupidity and
not just a different view.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 3:23 PM, db  wrote:

> That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS bad
> points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty.   If the IT literate
> don't/ can't  see the problem, it will never be fixed and the system remains
> unaccountable.
>
> With some of the name calling and righteous huffing and puffing that
> resulted from my OS X comments, some of you Computerguys sounded like the
> people defending Wall Street / the bad parts of the bailout or our
> continuous wars in Iraq/Afghanistan.
>
> Pointed criticism isn't a bad thing / unpatriotic it's how the
> accountability process begins.
>
> If things are broke... or inefficient and bothersome ... they should be
> fixed for the benefit of everyone and if it's just they don't bother you ...
> you might give people some credit for their concerns.  Insisting they are
> wrong just makes you part of the metaphysical problem.
>
> What do you really know of other's realities?   Give people some credit and
> empowerment sometimes for knowing something that makes no sense to you.
>  Particularly when they are working hard and in substantial ways at it.
>  Saying "Red" is "Blue" over and over again is a recipe for nothing good in
> particular...
>
> I bet most everyone has learned that lesson a few times with their
> significant other.
> If they haven't, they are no doubt living alone..
>
> db
>
>
> mike wrote:
>
>> My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they
>> are unaccountable because they don't have to be.  WM was untouched for
>> years
>> because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because
>> no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles
>>> and
>>> government and WM.
>>>
>>> To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product
>>> from
>>> a provider with bad juju.  Did it ever mature?
>>>
>>> Governments ... have been both good and bad.  The good ones were probably
>>> the ones that developed to a mature level.  The bad ones are when they
>>> rot
>>> sometime thereafter...  when citizens stop maintaining them.
>>>
>>> ??
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> mike wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
 I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
 unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of
 evil.

 On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:





> Quoting db :
>
>  That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
>
>
>
>
>> proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
> innovation.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

That's why I was making my sacrilegious critique of some of Apple's OS 
bad points that cause many people unnecessary difficulty.   If the IT 
literate don't/ can't  see the problem, it will never be fixed and the 
system remains unaccountable.


With some of the name calling and righteous huffing and puffing that 
resulted from my OS X comments, some of you Computerguys sounded like 
the people defending Wall Street / the bad parts of the bailout or our 
continuous wars in Iraq/Afghanistan.


Pointed criticism isn't a bad thing / unpatriotic it's how the 
accountability process begins.


If things are broke... or inefficient and bothersome ... they should be 
fixed for the benefit of everyone and if it's just they don't bother you 
... you might give people some credit for their concerns.  Insisting 
they are wrong just makes you part of the metaphysical problem.


What do you really know of other's realities?   Give people some credit 
and empowerment sometimes for knowing something that makes no sense to 
you.  Particularly when they are working hard and in substantial ways at 
it.  Saying "Red" is "Blue" over and over again is a recipe for nothing 
good in particular...


I bet most everyone has learned that lesson a few times with their 
significant other.  


If they haven't, they are no doubt living alone..

db

mike wrote:

My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they
are unaccountable because they don't have to be.  WM was untouched for years
because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because
no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db  wrote:

  

I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and
government and WM.

To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from
a provider with bad juju.  Did it ever mature?

Governments ... have been both good and bad.  The good ones were probably
the ones that developed to a mature level.  The bad ones are when they rot
sometime thereafter...  when citizens stop maintaining them.

??

db



mike wrote:



I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of evil.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:



  

Quoting db :

 That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their




proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.



  

Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
innovation.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

"Monocultures" are almost always bad. Besides, without Macs, who would 
Microsoft copy? With one OS and limited software, there are a lot of 
tasks--and games--that won't get done as well as with several operating 
systems and a variety of software.


You are wrong about government. YOU/WE are the government. When elected 
representatives don't behave, fire them--vote for someone who's 
better--campaign, inform if you have to do that. If government is 
unaccountable, it's the fault of people who were distracted or uniformed 
enough to vote for crooks instead of people who represent them. You 
can't have someone do everything you want, but when it's 70-80%, that's 
pretty good.


Steve mentioned the Fairfax Co, Va. schools racing to the bottom when 
foreign languages are more important than ever, and many students don't 
have computers. That's what you get when millionaires get big tax cuts, 
corporations get their wars, and the national debt skyrockets, resulting 
in cuts for school budgets. Virginia voters weren't paying attention to 
basics in the recent election [primary, general], otherwise they would 
have had better choices for governor [and local reps.].


Not paying attention and being uninformed of facts is the worst of the 
evils.




I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of evil.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:


> Quoting db :
>
>  That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their

>> proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.
>>

>
> Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
> innovation.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

My point was that part of the problem is that when things get too big they
are unaccountable because they don't have to be.  WM was untouched for years
because nothing challanged them...the post office is run like crap because
no matter what they know they will keep getting moneyunaccountable.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:01 PM, db  wrote:

> I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles and
> government and WM.
>
> To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product from
> a provider with bad juju.  Did it ever mature?
>
> Governments ... have been both good and bad.  The good ones were probably
> the ones that developed to a mature level.  The bad ones are when they rot
> sometime thereafter...  when citizens stop maintaining them.
>
> ??
>
> db
>
>
>
> mike wrote:
>
>> I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
>> unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of evil.
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Quoting db :
>>>
>>>  That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
>>>
>>>
 proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.



>>> Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
>>> innovation.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

I don't see the connection you are making between mature product cycles 
and government and WM.


To my mind, WM is an uninspired mediocre downscaled desktop OS product 
from a provider with bad juju.  Did it ever mature?


Governments ... have been both good and bad.  The good ones were 
probably the ones that developed to a mature level.  The bad ones are 
when they rot sometime thereafter...  when citizens stop maintaining them.


??

db


mike wrote:

I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of evil.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:

  

Quoting db :

 That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their


proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.

  

Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
innovation.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

Indeed.

I do find myself glued to Dexter however.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 12:32 PM, phartz...@gmail.com
wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
>  wrote:
>
> > The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old standard
> > SDTV.  Not much progress is there.
>
>   Considering the quality of programs on TV, for the most part, why
> would anyone anguish over the quality of the picture?
>
>  Steve
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
 wrote:

> The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old standard
> SDTV.  Not much progress is there.

  Considering the quality of programs on TV, for the most part, why
would anyone anguish over the quality of the picture?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

I was listening to a radio program on NPR the other day where they 
talked about the problem with setting standards.


The new HD TV's have only 3 times as much resolution as the old 
standard SDTV.  Not much progress is there.


When you set some standards innovation seems to lag.

People are designing and building well designed and radically designed PC's.

One of my members has even designed and built  a water resistant self 
contained with Battery Back up PC for use on Oil Rigs.


Stewart


At 01:09 PM 12/19/2009, you wrote:

Innovation by definition happens in new areas ...
Given the same environment, I don't think you can significantly keep 
developing something indefinitely.  Eventually, ingenuity and 
options have run their course.


Quill pens were replaced by pencils and pens ... they didn't keep 
experimenting with new types of quills...

horse and carriage by cars and trucks
sulpha drugs by other antibiotics

At some point a design should and does mature for good reason.
It's exciting (and difficult) when the dev curve is steep but when 
it flattens out again,  you've got a damned good item.


db


From their on out
Reid Katan wrote:

Quoting db :


That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.


Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for 
innovation.



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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

Innovation by definition happens in new areas ...
Given the same environment, I don't think you can significantly keep 
developing something indefinitely.  Eventually, ingenuity and options 
have run their course.


Quill pens were replaced by pencils and pens ... they didn't keep 
experimenting with new types of quills...

horse and carriage by cars and trucks
sulpha drugs by other antibiotics

At some point a design should and does mature for good reason. 

It's exciting (and difficult) when the dev curve is steep but when it 
flattens out again,  you've got a damned good item.


db


From their on out
Reid Katan wrote:

Quoting db :


That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.


Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for 
innovation.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

I don't think it's a good thing, that's where you get things that are
unaccountable like government or windows mobile.  Take your pick of evil.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Reid Katan  wrote:

> Quoting db :
>
>  That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
>> proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.
>>
>
> Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for
> innovation.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting db :


That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.


Is homogenization really a Good Thing? Doesn't leave much room for innovation.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 9:55 AM, mike  wrote:

> I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are MUCH
> larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd much
> rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more
> broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.

  I agree.  However, the Fairfax County, Virginia school system is
preparing to eliminate ALL foreign language courses.  This is the same
school system essentially requires that students do all research
online, file their homework online, and teachers even hand out the
daily homework assignments online.

  A recent article in the Washington Post described how poorer
students without home computers flood local libraries every school
day, often having to travel miles to get there, just to get their
assignments, do their homework and file their assignments, but often
with a 30 minute per-session limit on computer access as well as
having to have a library card to even use the library computers.

  This is such a ridiculous situation, at least in my opinion, as to
cause me to ask this question: What is the most used internet search
term in the entire Washington DC metropolitan area?  How about "fcps
blackboard," according to data from Google.  That is the Fairfax
County school system site where these students have to go to get their
assignments, find out what URLs they have to go to in order to do
their homework research, and even to post their assignments.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

Yes "want" is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and uncool 
etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor.

We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a driver. 


Most of my friends when I was in high school could change oil or change 
a tire in their cars. I can. We also did valve jobs ourselves for the 
fun of it [well almost], and repair motorcycles. Anyone who is capable 
of doing an oil change and car repair is smart enough to learn how to 
use a computer--if they want to do it. If they say they can't, it's a 
mental block, not lack of ability.


Conversely, if you can use a computer, you can learn how to work on your 
car. You have to want to learn how to use the computer instead of 
thinking about how difficult it is [it isn't] and how you can't learn 
[you can]. Just do it!!!



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
clue.
  

Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do 
therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own 
vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself in 
court?


Yes to all but being my own lawyer.



But everyone knows how to drive a car.   Why?  Because the controls ... except 
for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need showed 
were more or less the most effective.



...except for Peugeot, Citroen, Perodua, Fiat, Skoda, Tata, Alfa Romeo, 
Proton, Lada, Trabant, Yugo...



Come on. Almost anyone can learn how to use computers, and non-American 
cars, if they put their minds to it and take time to RTFM or simply ask 
questions. I figured out how to use the controls on an Alfa Romeo we 
rented in Germany, and the manual was in German [I don't speak German 
without a dictionary ;-) ].


My mother learned how to use a computer [PC] in her 70s, so did my Dad 
[Mac]. Should be easier for all your students/clients who are younger 
than 70--or 80.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

I thought you originally were in IT when you worked with mainframes?


I was an art major in college. I took programming [Fortran--Cobol might 
have been better for Y2K] because it looked like plotting and drawing 
would eventually be done on computers, and because artists are 
independent business people who need to know how to run their 
businesses. It was better than the course I took on Logic.


When I experimented briefly with the GE Genigraphics system 
, I used a 
terminal. I don't know where the mainframe was, but the output was in DC 
and it had to be shipped to Philly overnight. For other work, I used 
shared terminals in Philly and one mainframe was somewhere in Michigan, 
the other in Massachusetts.


Most of what I know about IT, support and networking I learned on my 
own, just like my friends did. I took an MCSE course several years ago, 
but decided I didn't want to do just tech support, especially for 
Windows. I had enough artwork to keep me busy by then.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

Funny how the lefties like Tom who really *did* back stalin push him off on
others...

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 2:54 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:23 PM, db wrote:
>
>> That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their
>> proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.
>>
>
> WFB paradise? WFBs dream of the day when Joe Stalin will rise again and
> command Soviet-style uniformity. Mac users will huddle in basements hoping
> to avoid the secret police.
>
> In reality the future will be MacOS, Android, Palm, RIM, and a few hold
> outs still WINCEing.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 18, 2009, at 2:23 PM, db wrote:
That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their  
proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.


WFB paradise? WFBs dream of the day when Joe Stalin will rise again  
and command Soviet-style uniformity. Mac users will huddle in  
basements hoping to avoid the secret police.


In reality the future will be MacOS, Android, Palm, RIM, and a few  
hold outs still WINCEing.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

If their gains in the market is 'shooting themselves in the foot' God give
me that kind of gun.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 1:56 PM, db  wrote:

> Yes "want" is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and
> uncool etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor.
>
> We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a
> driver.
>
> Likewise with a computer.  Few can afford secretaries but they can afford
> to have someone fix their computer occasionally etc.
>
> Computers became ubiquitous when their OS's became reasonably intuitive /
> graphic so that everyman could "drive" themselves.
>
> Great leaps in intuitive design automatically are rewarded.
> That's why I think apple ... a pretty good interface on top of truly great
> computers ... is shooting itself in the foot by refusing to change some
> faults in their design that most all professionals will acknowledge exist
> ... and that would cause people to absolutely flock to their products ... as
> they have for the iPod and iPhone.
>
> db
>
>
> mike wrote:
>
>> Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places.
>> Not because they are all the same.  By this logic everyone should know how
>> to change the oil or a tire...but they don't.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
 I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
 not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
 learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
 like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
 clue.




>>> Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to
>>> do
>>> therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own
>>> vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent
>>> yourself
>>> in court?
>>>
>>> But everyone knows how to drive a car.   Why?  Because the controls ...
>>> except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and
>>> need
>>> showed were more or less the most effective.
>>>
>>> As should be with the world's long running stupid "shoot ourselves in the
>>> foot" "Win vs. Mac's are better" contest.
>>> The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of
>>> their universe ... a Renaissance Man.
>>>
>>> Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes "magic" for the
>>> rest
>>> of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic.
>>>
>>> db
>>>
>>>
>>>  Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message-
>>>
>>>
 I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are
 MUCH
 larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd
 much
 rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a
 more
 broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

Yes "want" is involved but in a society where you are disadvantaged and 
uncool etc to not compute, it's not the determining factor.


We can afford to pay for the oil or tire but few can afford to pay for a 
driver.


Likewise with a computer.  Few can afford secretaries but they can 
afford to have someone fix their computer occasionally etc.


Computers became ubiquitous when their OS's became reasonably intuitive 
/ graphic so that everyman could "drive" themselves.


Great leaps in intuitive design automatically are rewarded. 

That's why I think apple ... a pretty good interface on top of truly 
great computers ... is shooting itself in the foot by refusing to change 
some faults in their design that most all professionals will acknowledge 
exist ... and that would cause people to absolutely flock to their 
products ... as they have for the iPod and iPhone.


db

mike wrote:

Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places.
Not because they are all the same.  By this logic everyone should know how
to change the oil or a tire...but they don't.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db  wrote:

  

Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:



I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
clue.


  

Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do
therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own
vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself
in court?

But everyone knows how to drive a car.   Why?  Because the controls ...
except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need
showed were more or less the most effective.

As should be with the world's long running stupid "shoot ourselves in the
foot" "Win vs. Mac's are better" contest.
The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of
their universe ... a Renaissance Man.

Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes "magic" for the rest
of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic.

db


 Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message-


I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are
MUCH
larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd
much
rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a
more
broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

Faulty logic...we all know how to drive cars because we want to go places.
Not because they are all the same.  By this logic everyone should know how
to change the oil or a tire...but they don't.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 12:46 PM, db  wrote:

> Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
>
>> I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
>> not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
>> learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
>> like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
>> clue.
>>
>>
> Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to do
> therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your own
> vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent yourself
> in court?
>
> But everyone knows how to drive a car.   Why?  Because the controls ...
> except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and need
> showed were more or less the most effective.
>
> As should be with the world's long running stupid "shoot ourselves in the
> foot" "Win vs. Mac's are better" contest.
> The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of
> their universe ... a Renaissance Man.
>
> Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes "magic" for the rest
> of us. You just get to choose your specialty and your magic.
>
> db
>
>
>  Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message-
>> I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are
>> MUCH
>> larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd
>> much
>> rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a
>> more
>> broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.
>>
>>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:

I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
clue.
  
Do you know how to fix your car, the light switch in your house, how to 
do therapy on your knee, make your own jewelry or wall art, grow your 
own vegetables, raise your own chickens, file your own taxes, represent 
yourself in court?


But everyone knows how to drive a car.   Why?  Because the controls ... 
except for Minis ... are all essentially the same design that time and 
need showed were more or less the most effective.


As should be with the world's long running stupid "shoot ourselves in 
the foot" "Win vs. Mac's are better" contest.
The modern world is way to specialized for everyone to be an expert of 
their universe ... a Renaissance Man.


Specialization requires specialists ... and that makes "magic" for the 
rest of us. 
You just get to choose your specialty and your magic.


db

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-

I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are
MUCH
larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd
much
rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a
more
broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

The young will learn both and as they do proprietary designs will become 
meaningless and disappear like vestigial organs.


The power of proprietary designs is dividing the market for market share 
purposes.  Once they don't accomplish that mission they are just an 
expense to be unnecessarily maintained.


Not to mention that patent advantage will have likewise disappeared.

db

.mike wrote:

I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are MUCH
larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd much
rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more
broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

  

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:



And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no*
experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough
experience to get *started* using a computer.
  

  But what is the "right" computer OS to learn?  Should school systems
teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is
what is preferred by most businesses?  That seems to currently be the
case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like
trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one
receives a more broadly based education.

 Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

That is why OS's need to and will eventually get over their 
proprietaryness and look and work essentially the same.


db

phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:

  

And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no*
experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough
experience to get *started* using a computer.



  But what is the "right" computer OS to learn?  Should school systems
teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is
what is preferred by most businesses?  That seems to currently be the
case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like
trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one
receives a more broadly based education.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

People think completely differently and have patience and time for 
different kinds of things.


I am constantly seeing  hoards of people who are "in the ditch" with 
their computer as soon as anything departs from the narrow path they 
have for email, browsing, uploading their pics to the camera etc..


Don't know how to change their browser home page, only go back and forth 
or close windows when browsing as their method of control, are using 
their "recents" as an addressbook, can't conceptualize what photosharing 
sites are or how to use them, have no idea of what the "cloud" is, have 
no apps on their iPhone and don't know how to put them there or use 
their iPhone for anything else but a phone and emailer (that the Apple 
store set up for them).


Most importantly... they are pretty much as "started" as they are ever 
going to be and never try to use the computer itself to help them figure 
out any issue or capability they encounter.  They have 0 aptitude and 
interest for figuring out the interface images they see.  Someone has 
shown them how to do this or that ... and that is pretty much where they 
remain.


These are the people who the GUI was invented for and these people now 
make up the majority of computer users in the US today.


These are the people who better intuitive window control and taskbars/ 
docks are meant for because they constantly are making their icons go 
"poof" etc.


Not for the people who know how to and do subscribe and participate in a 
Computerguys list.


Yes you and I know how to "start" on  most any computer related 
issue ...
But do we know what the rest of the world is about and what their 
limitations and needs are?

Or is that our prideful ignorance and our "limitation"?

db


Reid Katan wrote:

Quoting b_s-wilk :

And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who  
loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect 
 everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the  
rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of.



I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented,
workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT,
no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only
friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other
users and pros.


And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have 
*no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have 
enough experience to get *started* using a computer.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

I thought you originally were in IT when you worked with mainframes?

db

b_s-wilk wrote:
And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who 
loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect 
everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the 
rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of.





I'm not in IT.

I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were 
invented, workstations and mainframes before that. There were no 
classes, no IT, no certifications, no third party books, no Internet 
[only BBS], only friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, 
mostly from other users and pros.


I've mostly worked alone or in small studios with long-distance 
clients. We had to help each other figure out how to do what we 
needed, including drawing, painting, illustrating, photo retouching, 
camera, layout, prepress, audio, video, networking. We learned it on 
our own and provided tech support for each other.


When your work depends on knowing the software and hardware, you do 
whatever you can to learn how to use it. Thank goodness for friends 
and computer user groups. They've been most helpful. So has curiosity 
and patience, especially patience.


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

I sometimes wear a tee shirt I got years ago from Sun that says, "No, I
will not fix your computer" in bold lettering.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
And they rant and they rave about how awful the machine is.  Not 
realizing it is something they did to make it behave that way.

I have that occur around me all the time.

My simple answer is stop what you are doing.  Unless you want to 
learn how to fix it yourself, stop the ranting and the raving, I will 
not work on it.  (Wife and children)


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Stewart Marshall]

And they rant and they rave about how awful the machine is.  Not 
realizing it is something they did to make it behave that way.


I have that occur around me all the time.

My simple answer is stop what you are doing.  Unless you want to 
learn how to fix it yourself, stop the ranting and the raving, I will 
not work on it.  (Wife and children)


Stewart


At 09:59 AM 12/18/2009, you wrote:

I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
clue.

Thank you,
Mark Snyder



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

I think most kids will learn how to use both - at home and with friends,
not so important at school anymore.  More important at school is
learning how, why they work.  For too many people, computers are magic,
like cars.  Therefore, when something behaves incorrectly, they have no
clue.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are
MUCH
larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd
much
rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a
more
broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 18, 2009, at 8:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

But what is the "right" computer OS to learn?  Should school systems
teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is
what is preferred by most businesses?  That seems to currently be the
case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like
trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one
receives a more broadly based education.


The students on a voc-ed track should probably get trained on Windows.  
School boards who give Windows to the academic track students should  
be promptly voted out of office. Anyone who watches any PBS will  
constantly see interviews with successful people in the arts and  
sciences who will almost always have a Macintosh somewhere in the  
background. Parents should be screaming at those bozos "You are  
denying the opportunity for my child to win a Nobel Prize!"



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

I suspect this is like anything..why can't they learn both?  There are MUCH
larger problems with our eduction system than which OS to learn.  I'd much
rather have them at a very young age begin to learn other languages, a more
broadly based education in general will help them in many areas.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 6:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:
>
> > And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no*
> > experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough
> > experience to get *started* using a computer.
>
>   But what is the "right" computer OS to learn?  Should school systems
> teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is
> what is preferred by most businesses?  That seems to currently be the
> case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like
> trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one
> receives a more broadly based education.
>
>  Steve
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:

> And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have *no*
> experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have enough
> experience to get *started* using a computer.

  But what is the "right" computer OS to learn?  Should school systems
teach students to use Windows and associated software because that is
what is preferred by most businesses?  That seems to currently be the
case as schools appear to be inching ever closer to being more like
trade and industry learning centers than institutions where one
receives a more broadly based education.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting b_s-wilk :

And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who   
loves to learn this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect  
 everyone else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the   
rest of the world wonders about and makes fun of.



I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented,
workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT,
no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only
friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other
users and pros.


And I suspect it'll be increasingly harder to find people who have  
*no* experience with computers. So I would expect that most would have  
enough experience to get *started* using a computer.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves to learn 
this stuff. The fact that IT people think and expect everyone else to be like 
them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the world wonders about and 
makes fun of.




I'm not in IT.

I'm an artist who has been using Macs and PCs since they were invented, 
workstations and mainframes before that. There were no classes, no IT, 
no certifications, no third party books, no Internet [only BBS], only 
friends, coworkers, user groups, some tech support, mostly from other 
users and pros.


I've mostly worked alone or in small studios with long-distance clients. 
We had to help each other figure out how to do what we needed, including 
drawing, painting, illustrating, photo retouching, camera, layout, 
prepress, audio, video, networking. We learned it on our own and 
provided tech support for each other.


When your work depends on knowing the software and hardware, you do 
whatever you can to learn how to use it. Thank goodness for friends and 
computer user groups. They've been most helpful. So has curiosity and 
patience, especially patience.


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting tjpa :


The Dock normally displays an icon for every application, click on the
icon to get a list of windows for that application. That does the job
quite well. Your insisting that it has to function exactly in a
particular way is like insisting that your MP3 player has to be brown.


And, of course, Task Bar is becoming more Dock-like. It has the option  
(I think the default) to combine the icons of programs and show all  
their windows when you hover over them.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

b_s-wilk wrote:

Use Exposé to see or hide all windows.
Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor 
how to use it.  It's one of the cludges I was referring to.  
Obviously it was developed because Apple was aware of the problem / 
need but they could have done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where  
that function would be  readily apparent.



You don't need to be IT educated to find the Help menu at the top of 
the screen and input simple search terms. All you need is eyes and the 
ability to read. You seem to be making it more complicated than it 
actually is.
I wasn't the person who started the help issue string.  Although I 
resent having to look things up and do work around when it shouldn't be 
necessary, I easily can.


And it's not complicated for you... you have long been an IT who loves 
to learn this stuff.  The fact that IT people think and expect everyone 
else to be like them is the big geek disconnect that the rest of the 
world wonders about and makes fun of.


Most people I know are busy and they just want to use their machine for 
simple tasks: email / browsing / writing letters / keeping accounts/ 
handling their music / movies.  They dread having to spend the time to 
dig out an education from a machine ... they are not good at it and  
they just don't do it.   They are people people not IT people.  

That was the whole concept behind GUI... computer operation for 
novices.  My point is where the "king" of GUI's is not intuitive, THAT 
should be fixed.   It  only makes common sense and utility for those who 
depend on it to do so.
If Apple would just let go of some of the "pride" thing, they could more 
completely and justly be worthy of that pride and the respect that goes 
with it.  


Seems to me a no-brainer...


Finder --> Help --> Search "hide and show windows" --> Show All 
Results...  opens the Mac Help Viewer with the answers.


Remember the good old days when we had manuals and tutorials? You may 
have to buy a manual, but Mac OS X has dozens of built-in and linked 
tutorials. Where?


Finder --> Help --> Search "tutorials" --> Show All Results...  Some 
tutorials are local and others need Internet connections. You can set 
up the computers so they can go to the online tutorials when users 
click on the articles in the Mac Help Viewer.
I know where all these things are... but that's exactly my point... I 
and others should not have to be doing so for things that by now could 
easily have been made "drop dead simple".   We have better things to do 
with our limited time.


db



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

Use Exposé to see or hide all windows.

Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor how to 
use it.  It's one of the cludges I was referring to.  Obviously it was 
developed because Apple was aware of the problem / need but they could have 
done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where  that function would be  readily 
apparent.



You don't need to be IT educated to find the Help menu at the top of the 
screen and input simple search terms. All you need is eyes and the 
ability to read. You seem to be making it more complicated than it 
actually is.


Finder --> Help --> Search "hide and show windows" --> Show All 
Results...  opens the Mac Help Viewer with the answers.


Remember the good old days when we had manuals and tutorials? You may 
have to buy a manual, but Mac OS X has dozens of built-in and linked 
tutorials. Where?


Finder --> Help --> Search "tutorials" --> Show All Results...  Some 
tutorials are local and others need Internet connections. You can set up 
the computers so they can go to the online tutorials when users click on 
the articles in the Mac Help Viewer.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Stewart Marshall]

It has been known since the creation of Windows 95 that pressing the 
F1 key brings up help.


At one time CHM files were also help files.

Stewart


At 12:11 PM 12/17/2009, you wrote:

No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP.  Since it is a
company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this
laptop.  Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it.

I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X.
Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it.

Thank you,
Mark Snyder



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

Right, just as any sighted person can't miss it in windows..

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) <
mark.sny...@ngc.com> wrote:

> No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP.  Since it is a
> company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this
> laptop.  Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it.
>
> I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X.
> Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it.
>
> Thank you,
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> You might have known if you were looking for it.  You said you never
> even
> looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in
> every
> application window and the HELP in the start menu.  I mean start -->
> help.
> It's not that hard.
>
> BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious.  Too
> many
> windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

No, I meant I never looked for the Help menu in XP.  Since it is a
company-configured OS, I had to look to see if it was there on this
laptop.  Since I never looked for it, I had no idea how to find it.

I've known forever (since 1980's) where help was in Mac OS then OS X.
Any sited person who can read couldn't miss it.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
You might have known if you were looking for it.  You said you never
even
looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in
every
application window and the HELP in the start menu.  I mean start -->
help.
It's not that hard.

BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious.  Too
many
windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

b_s-wilk wrote:
1.  Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't "poof" 
them
2.  Make the dock superficially display icons for every window 
running whether it is maximized or not. 



Is your dock at the bottom of the screen? I've never "poofed" icons 
from the dock when it's on the left. I have done that in the sidebar 
of Finder windows, but that's easy to fix. It's just another D'Oh 
moment, though.
It's not usually my dock... it's other's using computers I am 
responsible for...
People are used to looking on the bottom and with Mac's it's very time 
consuming to mass load computers if you customize them all a lot...


In the top menu, there's almost always a menu for "Window" which lists 
the open windows in a program. 

Yes, but that constantly requires a lot of extra mousing and clicking
With many programs and windows open, it wouldn't help to have them in 
the Dock since the icons would be too small to see. 
I pretty much know where things are by relative position... windows and 
programs I was using for a project are adjacent ... and I use Virtual 
Desktop Manager to segregate them into smaller groups where the icons 
are bigger
Only minimized windows have Dock icons, and only for the program 
you're using at the time.


Use Exposé to see or hide all windows.
Nobody but the IT educated know what Expose is... where it is ... nor 
how to use it.  It's one of the cludges I was referring to.  Obviously 
it was developed because Apple was aware of the problem / need but they 
could have done that by fixing the Finder / Dock where  that function 
would be  readily apparent.


But that probably would make Apple more like windows/ linux... so with 
these issues we're talking about they just pridefully continue "cutting 
off their nose to spite their face" in not providing a intuitive and 
comprehensive fix for the people who need it... the noobs.


The world won't end because of it... but now nice it would be if they 
could make OS X shiny and complete.


db



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

You might have known if you were looking for it.  You said you never even
looked for it, I'm not sure how someone looking could miss the HELP in every
application window and the HELP in the start menu.  I mean start --> help.
It's not that hard.

BTW, I've known too many mac users to believe anything is obvious.  Too many
windows users too...the pendulum swings both ways.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 4:36 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) <
mark.sny...@ngc.com> wrote:

> I've been using XP for years in my office and still am (they will
> upgrade to W7 in about 2012), but had never used Help.  I tried each of
> the methods suggested and they work.  I wouldn't have known, though
> without the suggestions.  I have no idea how a newbie would guess them.
> Finding help on the Mac has always been obvious, even for newbies.  It
> would be easy to show a newbie how to find help in Windows, just not
> necessary in OS X.
>
> Thank you,
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> S...you can find help on the mac keyboard...but not on the windows
> one?
> Does Apple spell HELP different than windows.
>
> HELP
>
> That's how it should look.
>
> Also when I press the start button and type that word just as it appears
> above, I get loads of help.
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

I doubt they cared, google search on a windows box is horrible.  It's slow,
and the results are usually too stinted to matter.  The built in search and
also that third party utility I use do the same as search in OSX, begin
giving you results as you type, the more you type the narrower the results
become.  Google search in windows was the bottom of the barrel as far as
search goes compared to other third party apps like copernic and yahoo
search etc.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:18 AM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:36 PM, mike wrote:
>
>> I found search horrid in XP and win2k...vista better, 7 has been great but
>> not perfect.  I can open any program or utility, control panel, management
>> tool I want right from the start menu.  Easy.  I have thousands of mp3's,
>> loads and loads of pics etc...I run a program called everything that is
>> small and all it does is index filenames...searches with this are done in
>> real time, zero wait.
>>
>
> After Google put up their own search tool for Windows, M$ kind of had to do
> something. No?
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 7:51 PM, Reid Katan wrote:
Frankly, I don't see how a noob is going to make the connection in  
OSX to click on an oval shaped white spot at the top right of the  
Finder window and type "help" into that.


Frankly, I don't know why anyone would do that. That would be a silly  
way to get help.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:17 PM, db wrote:
So no matter what I am willing or not willing to do for myself... I  
still constantly struggle with people who are struggling with these  
OSX (and increasing Win... ) issues I mentioned.


I find that reading Apple's HDI docs is a useful place for an  
instructor to start. I don't teach the OS as much as I teach the HDI.  
A common comment I get from students is "I was going to ask you how to  
do 'x", then I realized you had taught me how to figure that out for  
myself." My major gripe about OS X is that Apple's UNIX programmers  
never read the HDI. That makes for many more user interface problems  
and inconsistencies. OS 9 was much better in this regard.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 17, 2009, at 7:52 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

Am I being instructed by Apple Corp. as to what I "need to do in
life"?  I don't need their help to figure that out.  This boy does not
need music on the go.  He may enjoy it thusly, but not nearly so much
as when he is at home with his bombastic music system.  I have music
in the car if I want some travellin' tunes.


Well not EVERYTHING. It is M$ that offers the prayer chain app (I  
forget its name).


I can't say that M$ hasn't got a prayer.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 17, 2009, at 6:46 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) wrote:
Start on the taskbar, I did see Help and Support near Log Off and  
Shut Down, but I did have to look for it.


Not on my PC. When I started to type "help" as instructed here it  
launched Roxio CD Creator. Why?



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:36 PM, mike wrote:
I found search horrid in XP and win2k...vista better, 7 has been  
great but
not perfect.  I can open any program or utility, control panel,  
management
tool I want right from the start menu.  Easy.  I have thousands of  
mp3's,
loads and loads of pics etc...I run a program called everything that  
is
small and all it does is index filenames...searches with this are  
done in

real time, zero wait.


After Google put up their own search tool for Windows, M$ kind of had  
to do something. No?



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Reid Katan wrote:
Yeah, actually, I noticed that after I sent that email. (-: All of  
Window's windows have "Help" on the menu bar too. Turns out, you  
can't hide/minimize *all* your windows in OSX anyway. Just tried it  
with  and no matter what window way last, it wouldn't go  
away. Maybe there are other ways to do it, but. . .


F11 (LOL)!


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:39 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
These are after market keyboards not the cheap included in a package  
ones.


Not on my fancy KeyTronic event though it has a row of auxilary  
buttons for volume, mute, video controls, calculator, mail, etc. etc.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[tjpa]

On Dec 16, 2009, at 11:23 PM, db wrote:
1.  Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't "poof"  
them


Set up a "managed" account and uncheck the box for "Can modify the  
Dock."


2.  Make the dock superficially display icons for every window  
running whether it is maximized or not.


The Dock normally displays an icon for every application, click on the  
icon to get a list of windows for that application. That does the job  
quite well. Your insisting that it has to function exactly in a  
particular way is like insisting that your MP3 player has to be brown.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting b_s-wilk :

Window's windows have "Help" on the menu bar too. Turns out, you   
can't hide/minimize *all* your windows in OSX anyway. Just tried it  
 with  and no matter what window way last, it wouldn't go   
away. Maybe there are other ways to do it, but. . .




Why do you want to hide all windows? Does that include windows in a
program you're using?


*I* don't usually hie all my windows. db put fort the question "what's  
a noob supposed to do if there are no windows open on the desktop (or  
something to that effect)?" I'm just saying it's not easy to do in  
OSX. Almost *certainly* a noob isn't going to be able to do it.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 1:29 AM, t.piwowar  wrote:

> Nope. Not entertainment, but everything you need to do in life. They got
> your music. They got your cell phone. They got your pocket computer. And
> soon everything you need to read will be on the iPad. All one seamless
> integrated system.

  Am I being instructed by Apple Corp. as to what I "need to do in
life"?  I don't need their help to figure that out.  This boy does not
need music on the go.  He may enjoy it thusly, but not nearly so much
as when he is at home with his bombastic music system.  I have music
in the car if I want some travellin' tunes.

  Cell phone?  Don't want one except for emergencies, real or
perceived  Mine stays solely in the car and I place or take no calls
unless stopped and off the roadway or have mechanical troubles.
Again, not a device for me to get anal about.

  Pocket computer?  Ha!  Don't need one now, and never did.  If I get
antsy about wanting to access some stream of data, it can wait until I
get home.  Patience is a virtue, and there are multitudes of other
things to do in life beyond staring at screens and tapping keyboards
throughout the day.

  Camera phones?  I'm a pro, and those are but toys.  Stealing from
the Letterman Show, "I poop on them!"

  Now, if those things rolled out toilet paper, that could alter my perspective.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

My (company's) HP laptop keyboard (built-in and external) just have F1.
Nothing says Help on it.  When I click Start on the taskbar, I did see
Help and Support near Log Off and Shut Down, but I did have to look for
it.  

Office 2007 had enough annoying changes to make me hunt around to find
things I knew in Office 2003.  It took me about a week to remember most
of the new stuff, which seem to be mostly changes in the way I get to
the various functions of the old version more than seeing new ones.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
All my keyboards say 'F1' and 'HELP' underneath the F1...I think even
noobs
can get that.  Or they can hit that big glowy button start and help is
almost first on the list.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

I've been using XP for years in my office and still am (they will
upgrade to W7 in about 2012), but had never used Help.  I tried each of
the methods suggested and they work.  I wouldn't have known, though
without the suggestions.  I have no idea how a newbie would guess them.
Finding help on the Mac has always been obvious, even for newbies.  It
would be easy to show a newbie how to find help in Windows, just not
necessary in OS X.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
S...you can find help on the mac keyboard...but not on the windows
one?
Does Apple spell HELP different than windows.

HELP

That's how it should look.

Also when I press the start button and type that word just as it appears
above, I get loads of help.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

I have used a dock app in windows that mimics the OS X dock, I'd have to say
with those new 27" imacs and those MASSIVE resolutions, you'd have to have
about 300 programs open before they'd be too small.  This just boils down to
which you prefer, I liked having all windows showing in the dock because I
used it to switch apps.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:20 PM, b_s-wilk  wrote:

> 1.  Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't "poof" them
>> 2.  Make the dock superficially display icons for every window running
>> whether it is maximized or not.
>>
>
>
> Is your dock at the bottom of the screen? I've never "poofed" icons from
> the dock when it's on the left. I have done that in the sidebar of Finder
> windows, but that's easy to fix. It's just another D'Oh moment, though.
>
> In the top menu, there's almost always a menu for "Window" which lists the
> open windows in a program. With many programs and windows open, it wouldn't
> help to have them in the Dock since the icons would be too small to see.
> Only minimized windows have Dock icons, and only for the program you're
> using at the time.
>
> Use Exposé to see or hide all windows.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

1.  Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't "poof" them
2.  Make the dock superficially display icons for every window running whether it is maximized or not. 



Is your dock at the bottom of the screen? I've never "poofed" icons from 
the dock when it's on the left. I have done that in the sidebar of 
Finder windows, but that's easy to fix. It's just another D'Oh moment, 
though.


In the top menu, there's almost always a menu for "Window" which lists 
the open windows in a program. With many programs and windows open, it 
wouldn't help to have them in the Dock since the icons would be too 
small to see. Only minimized windows have Dock icons, and only for the 
program you're using at the time.


Use Exposé to see or hide all windows.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

I have seven apps open now. Each has "Help" in the menu at the top of
the screen as the last menu item. There's also a spyglass or magnifying
glass icon at the far right of the screen for searches. The Help menu
is pretty straighforward, not revealed by pressing an F-Key or in a
Start menu.


Yeah, actually, I noticed that after I sent that email. (-: All of Window's windows have 
"Help" on the menu bar too. Turns out, you can't hide/minimize *all* your windows in 
OSX anyway. Just tried it with  and no matter what window way last, it wouldn't go 
away. Maybe there are other ways to do it, but. . .



Why do you want to hide all windows? Does that include windows in a 
program you're using?


I hide Preview when I'm working in Photoshop, but don't usually hide 
others. I can hide all windows except in the program I'm using. For 
those windows, I can minimize to the dock or use WindowShade X [haxie 
from Unsanity] to minimize in place.


I can use Exposé [System Preferences --> Exposé & Spaces] to view all 
open windows, or hide them to view the photo on my desktop. When I 
search for "hide windows" in the Finder's Help menu, it shows how to do 
this.


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting mike :


Right, I can see the control panel issue, they took them and grouped em in


Actually, I was talking about the Control Panel item on the left side  
of the Explorer window. Sometimes there. Sometimes not.



Vista and it's not clear how to ungroup them in 7.   Network


Somewhere in there in Win7 there's a "Show all Control Panel items"  
option that, I believe, shows them as an un-grouped list.


I still like the old way. Call me a Ludite.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting b_s-wilk :

Uhh. Mkay, if you can't figure out where to go from there, perhaps   
you should not be using a computer. How about clicking on the word   
"Help"?


I have seven apps open now. Each has "Help" in the menu at the top of
the screen as the last menu item. There's also a spyglass or magnifying
glass icon at the far right of the screen for searches. The Help menu
is pretty straighforward, not revealed by pressing an F-Key or in a
Start menu.


Yeah, actually, I noticed that after I sent that email. (-: All of  
Window's windows have "Help" on the menu bar too. Turns out, you can't  
hide/minimize *all* your windows in OSX anyway. Just tried it with  
 and no matter what window way last, it wouldn't go away. Maybe  
there are other ways to do it, but. . .



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

I found search horrid in XP and win2k...vista better, 7 has been great but
not perfect.  I can open any program or utility, control panel, management
tool I want right from the start menu.  Easy.  I have thousands of mp3's,
loads and loads of pics etc...I run a program called everything that is
small and all it does is index filenames...searches with this are done in
real time, zero wait.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM, b_s-wilk  wrote:

> Uhh. Mkay, if you can't figure out where to go from there, perhaps you
>> should not be using a computer. How about clicking on the word "Help"?
>>
>> Frankly, I don't see how a noob is going to make the connection in OSX to
>> click on an oval shaped white spot at the top right of the Finder window and
>> type "help" into that.
>>
>> If someone is that clueless about computers they really should get some
>> assistance. It would be an interesting exercise to put some 100% no nothing
>> (about computers) people in front of a few computer systems and see how they
>> make out with no help whatsoever.
>>
>
> I have seven apps open now. Each has "Help" in the menu at the top of the
> screen as the last menu item. There's also a spyglass or magnifying glass
> icon at the far right of the screen for searches. The Help menu is pretty
> straighforward, not revealed by pressing an F-Key or in a Start menu.
>
> My aluminum keyboard doesn't have a Help key, although I could program one
> if I wanted. Noobs don't need that. All they have to do is look at the
> display and the word Help is at the top in menus for each program.
>
> The thing I don't understand is searching in Windows. Windows used to have
> the best search features, many times better than on Classic Mac. Now any
> time I search for something, even if I'm looking at the file, Windows can't
> find it. Yes, I could do an advanced search, but most people wouldn't do
> that. So if you want to search for Help files, Windows might not find them.
> Mac OS X.5 isn't quite as bad, but its default is search by content instead
> of by name, and you can't change it until after the results appear.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Some of mine do also.

These are after market keyboards not the cheap included in a package ones.

I usually buy a MS or Logitech after market cordless bundle.

Stewart


At 10:25 PM 12/16/2009, you wrote:

Quoting mike :


All my keyboards say 'F1' and 'HELP' underneath the F1...I think even noobs


Really? I don't believe that I've ever seen that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting mike :


All my keyboards say 'F1' and 'HELP' underneath the F1...I think even noobs


Really? I don't believe that I've ever seen that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

tjpa wrote:

On Dec 16, 2009, at 3:06 PM, mike wrote:
Well you said yourself you found the windows startbar more useful 
than the

os x dock?  Perhaps take this chance to tell him how to use the dock
better?


Someone asking a question will get an answer.

Someone posting a long list of gripes will get an overall assessment.


What do you mean?

db


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[b_s-wilk]

Uhh. Mkay, if you can't figure out where to go from there, perhaps you should not be 
using a computer. How about clicking on the word "Help"?

Frankly, I don't see how a noob is going to make the connection in OSX to click on an 
oval shaped white spot at the top right of the Finder window and type "help" 
into that.

If someone is that clueless about computers they really should get some 
assistance. It would be an interesting exercise to put some 100% no nothing 
(about computers) people in front of a few computer systems and see how they 
make out with no help whatsoever.


I have seven apps open now. Each has "Help" in the menu at the top of 
the screen as the last menu item. There's also a spyglass or magnifying 
glass icon at the far right of the screen for searches. The Help menu is 
pretty straighforward, not revealed by pressing an F-Key or in a Start menu.


My aluminum keyboard doesn't have a Help key, although I could program 
one if I wanted. Noobs don't need that. All they have to do is look at 
the display and the word Help is at the top in menus for each program.


The thing I don't understand is searching in Windows. Windows used to 
have the best search features, many times better than on Classic Mac. 
Now any time I search for something, even if I'm looking at the file, 
Windows can't find it. Yes, I could do an advanced search, but most 
people wouldn't do that. So if you want to search for Help files, 
Windows might not find them. Mac OS X.5 isn't quite as bad, but its 
default is search by content instead of by name, and you can't change it 
until after the results appear.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

Some of my OS X complaints were oriented to my personal efficiencies and 
preference re: Menu's and Docks/ Taskbars but my other motivation in 
commenting is because frequently I am responsible for lab type 
workstation pools (of Macs, Win and Linux machines) that highly 
pressured misc. non-computing professionals use and at times I train 
people to do things on those platforms also.


So no matter what I am willing or not willing to do for myself... I 
still constantly struggle with people who are struggling with these OSX 
(and increasing Win... ) issues I mentioned.


And I'm inherently aVERY lazy guy.   Every mt. I climb means I then  
have left the time and energy for one less mt. 

Troublesome interface design is troublesome design ... it's affects of 
inefficiency / wasted time and resources constantly roll downhill on all 
comers over and over and over and over ad finitum.


Great interface design is always rewarded ... but it's truly hard to do

The only people not affected by bad interface are professionals who have 
either figured out the issues so long ago they have forgotten or "bring 
to the table" so much collected IT knowledge and capability that they 
don't even notice that non professionals / non geeks are stumped ... 
think the interface is from "outerspace."


Some of you guys know so much that you have forgotten what you didn't 
know when you started out ... and that's where a lot of the rest of the 
world is.  

Great design and empathy are terrific things... not only can they make 
the world better... they can both make you money.


Ok, ... I'll get off my soap box...

But I still think it's a good and worthy discussion...

db

tjpa wrote:

On Dec 16, 2009, at 1:49 PM, db wrote:
So I got particular... put down some of my exact observations and 
experience about OS X tech inefficiencies that get in my way and are 
surprisingly and noticeably unintuitive and that I would like 
changed.


I'm particularly disappointed that this thread has continued to carp 
about some supposed user interface problems when it is really PEBKAC. 
Why the opposition to learning how to use a tool better?



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

mike wrote:

Well you said yourself you found the windows startbar more useful than the
os x dock?  Perhaps take this chance to tell him how to use the dock
better?  This is the kind of stuff he was talking about earlier, he voices
some opinions and complaints etc, and he gets told to shut it and he's wrong
and learn how to use it.  How about some advice?  Or maybe ask him
specifically what the issue is...
  
Exactly...  I'd love to know if there are any dock replacements or add 
ons out there that:

1.  Lock the infernal icons so that inexperienced users can't "poof" them
2.  Make the dock superficially display icons for every window running 
whether it is maximized or not.

You say he is carping about 'supposed' UI problems..but you and I both know
you don't think OS X is perfect in this catagory, so why continue this myth
that it is?
  


I'm curious about that too...

db

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 12:50 PM, tjpa  wrote:

  

On Dec 16, 2009, at 1:49 PM, db wrote:



So I got particular... put down some of my exact observations and
experience about OS X tech inefficiencies that get in my way and are
surprisingly and noticeably unintuitive and that I would like changed.

  

I'm particularly disappointed that this thread has continued to carp about
some supposed user interface problems when it is really PEBKAC. Why the
opposition to learning how to use a tool better?



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[db]

No, they just didn't understand what "easy / intuitive / good interface" 
is and how to make it that.


Coding is one thing, interface design is another.

If you just write code... it'll ALWAYS make great sense to you... why 
wouldn't it? ... you wrote it ... but that doesn't mean anyone else can 
grok it...


db

mike wrote:

It's like they *tried* to make it as hard as they could.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:10 AM, b_s-wilk  wrote:

  

 Quark XPress = user hostile.






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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

All my keyboards say 'F1' and 'HELP' underneath the F1...I think even noobs
can get that.  Or they can hit that big glowy button start and help is
almost first on the list.



On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 5:57 PM, Reid Katan  wrote:

> Quoting "Rev. Stewart Marshall" :
>
>  F1 is the universal help key in Windows.
>>
>>
>> At 05:53 PM 12/16/2009, you wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>>>
 Try F1.

>>>
>>> What does that mean? You need to supply an explanation for a noob.
>>>
>>
> In all fairness, a noob is not going to know that.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting "Rev. Stewart Marshall" :


F1 is the universal help key in Windows.


At 05:53 PM 12/16/2009, you wrote:

On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:41 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Try F1.


What does that mean? You need to supply an explanation for a noob.


In all fairness, a noob is not going to know that.


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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[Reid Katan]

Quoting tjpa :


On Dec 16, 2009, at 5:17 PM, Reid Katan wrote:
I know I'm biased by knowing already, but my guess would be to   
click the "Start" button. Sure, it seems odd to push the "Start"   
button to shut down, but if you want to start doing something. . .


Okay, I pressed Start. A whole bunch of stuff suddenly appeared on the
screen. I see nothing that says "Help." What am I supposed to do?


Uhh. Mkay, if you can't figure out where to go from there, perhaps you  
should not be using a computer. How about clicking on the word "Help"?


Frankly, I don't see how a noob is going to make the connection in OSX  
to click on an oval shaped white spot at the top right of the Finder  
window and type "help" into that.


If someone is that clueless about computers they really should get  
some assistance. It would be an interesting exercise to put some 100%  
no nothing (about computers) people in front of a few computer systems  
and see how they make out with no help whatsoever.



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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

S...you can find help on the mac keyboard...but not on the windows one?
Does Apple spell HELP different than windows.

HELP

That's how it should look.

Also when I press the start button and type that word just as it appears
above, I get loads of help.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 5:29 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Dec 16, 2009, at 7:11 PM, mike wrote:
>
>> Where does it say help on a mac?  Or are we using two different standards
>> as
>> usual?
>>
>
> There is a "Help" button on the keyboard.
>
> The rightmost item on the menu bar is also "Help."
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Consternation over Computer Constipation (including Mac's) - help!

[mike]

You have been for some time.

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 5:26 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Dec 16, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>
>> F1 is the universal help key in Windows.
>>
>
> I pressed F1 and got a big window full of text. Nothing there about opening
> a window. I typed "open window" in the search box. Again nothing about
> opening a windows. It did offer an essay on product activation.
>
> I'm still confused.
>
>
>
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