Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[rleesimon]

But, oh, so easy to lose in the snap of a finger ...viz ...spitzer/Paterson
in ny and so many who we remember well back to tricky dick!!

-Original Message-
From: Jeff Miles [mailto:jmile...@charter.net] 
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband
availability]

While I agree with you on most things I've seen you write, here I
think you're semi-deluded. Some very young politicians might go in with
altruistic thoughts and ideals, I believe many stay for the benefits and the
power and prestige. Somethings hard to give up once you've got them.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

While I agree with you on most things I've seen you write, here I think 
you're semi-deluded. Some very young politicians might go in with altruistic 
thoughts and ideals, I believe many stay for the benefits and the power and 
prestige. Somethings hard to give up once you've got them.



Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

Join my Mafia
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On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:50 PM, tjpa wrote:

> On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:54 PM, John Settle wrote:
>> ""They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only 
>> care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, none 
>> of us cares about the institution," he said, adding: "They really don't 
>> care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars gets lost, 
>> fine."
> 
> That is evil.
> 
> I think this exec is projecting their own evil intent onto others. Very few 
> people go into politics in order to get rich and even fewer of those succeed.
> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:15 AM, mike wrote:
The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly  
average joes.


But the more significant median is about $890,000 (for Senators and  
Reps in 2008). Anyone who owns a house in the metro DC area is  
probably worth more than that. So at least half of them probably can  
claim to be average Joes.


To prove your point you would also have to net out those who were  
already rich when they first got elected. Many of them were.


http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/overview.php?type=W&year=2008


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

You mean the millionaires club?

Senators have never been average and it is similar to the house of 
Lords in England.


Titled individuals.

Stewart


At 08:15 AM 3/5/2010, you wrote:

The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly average
joes.

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:27 AM, t.piwowar  wrote:

> On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>
>> Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ running
>> for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year.  And in 
the case of

>> congress they do it every two years.
>>
>
> Usually OPM -- Other People's Money.
>
>
>
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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

The average net worth of Senators is about 9 million, not exactly average
joes.

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:27 AM, t.piwowar  wrote:

> On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>
>> Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ running
>> for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year.  And in the case of
>> congress they do it every two years.
>>
>
> Usually OPM -- Other People's Money.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[t.piwowar]

On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:16 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $  
running for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year.  And  
in the case of congress they do it every two years.


Usually OPM -- Other People's Money.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

Actually this is pretty easy. Just accuse them of some impropriety with 
a student. Of course if someone gets caught lying about something like this I 
hope they not only get prison time but also sued for most of what they're worth.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Mar 2, 2010, at 7:40 AM, mike wrote:

> Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than free
> market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS) > wrote:
> 
>> The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse
>> incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive.  A
>> 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive
>> diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI.  When I went for follow-up, he could
>> not find the x-rays.  He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but
>> got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he
>> thought surgery was necessary.  He acted indignant and I got disgusted
>> and told him I would not be coming back.  I could not shake the
>> impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not
>> explain to me.  I got well and never did the surgery.  I will never go
>> back to that jerk.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> Mark Snyder
>> -Original Message-
>> I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see
>> how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its
>> customers to save money.
>> 
>> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Yup

Yeah you really have to wonder why someone would blow 5 million $ 
running for an office that only pays just over $150.000 a year.  And 
in the case of congress they do it every two years.


Stewart


At 06:01 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote:

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
 wrote:

> But once you get into state and national politics they start moving the
> other way.

  Yeah, well that is where they start getting onto the REAL money, the
kind of money that makes the risks truly worthwhile.

  Steve


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Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
 wrote:

> But once you get into state and national politics they start moving the
> other way.

  Yeah, well that is where they start getting onto the REAL money, the
kind of money that makes the risks truly worthwhile.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

When I lived in Canada, all local elections were party free.  In 
other words you ran against you competitor not a party.


Some states and municipalities do this also.  This I think makes true 
what you are saying.  I find most (I limit that) elected officials to 
be interested in their fellow man and their municipality.


Occasionally you run into some real wing nuts (Try local politics in 
southern Alabama) and they are just idiots with an agenda.


But for the most part they are concerned citizens like you.

But once you get into state and national politics they start moving 
the other way.


Stewart


At 04:09 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote:

As a municipal official (elected to town council of a very small town),
that garbage makes my blood boil.  The town pays me well under $1,000
per year.  I file for election with the state election board and stand
every four years.  I am honored to serve with others who may disagree at
times, but are watching out for the town's best interests at all times.

Thank you,
Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of
not getting his bonus was brought up:

""They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only

care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country,
none of us cares about the institution," he said, adding: "They really
don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars
gets lost, fine."


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

As a municipal official (elected to town council of a very small town),
that garbage makes my blood boil.  The town pays me well under $1,000
per year.  I file for election with the state election board and stand
every four years.  I am honored to serve with others who may disagree at
times, but are watching out for the town's best interests at all times.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of 
not getting his bonus was brought up:

""They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only

care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, 
none of us cares about the institution," he said, adding: "They really 
don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars 
gets lost, fine."


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:54 PM, John Settle wrote:
""They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we  
only care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the  
country, none of us cares about the institution," he said, adding:  
"They really don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a  
trillion dollars gets lost, fine."


That is evil.

I think this exec is projecting their own evil intent onto others.  
Very few people go into politics in order to get rich and even fewer  
of those succeed.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[John Settle]

On 3/4/2010 11:27 AM, tjpa wrote:
When the government gets money to pay for the common defense and 
promote the general welfare they cry foul.


When greedy corporations get money for outlandish bonuses and wild 
parties that's perfectly fine.



To take a quote from an AIG exec out of context when the possibility of 
not getting his bonus was brought up:


""They (Politicians)only care about the next election, just like we only 
care about the next bonus. Well, none of them cares about the country, 
none of us cares about the institution," he said, adding: "They really 
don't care, and I really don't care. And frankly, if a trillion dollars 
gets lost, fine."



RTFA @ *http://tinyurl.com/yhvwsmq*


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 4, 2010, at 2:38 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
So on the face of it, how friggen greedy do they have to get before  
someone starts calling foul? Especially when it's your and my money?


When the government gets money to pay for the common defense and  
promote the general welfare they cry foul.


When greedy corporations get money for outlandish bonuses and wild  
parties that's perfectly fine.


Haven't you been paying attention?


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Jeff Miles  wrote:

>My son is going through the same disappointment with his new car want. A Chevy 
>Camaro, fully >loaded is something he can afford, but the insurance will kill 
>him.

  Damn right.  My auto insurance just went up by $146 for a six month
period because the other designated driver on that policy got a
parking ticket.  She got the ticket for parking along the side of a
road where there were signs saying "No Parking."  That much is not in
dispute and she takes responsibility for that offense.  However,
because the ticket was written by the county sheriff as "Failure to
Obey a Highway Sign," said offense is considered a moving violation
because the state of Virginia allows auto insurance companies to
classify any and all tickets written thusly to be classified as moving
violations be they actually that or not.  The state provides for auto
insurance companies to lump all sorts of tickets into "One Size Fits
All" categories, turning many tickets that are issued for violations
wherein the ticketed vehicle is actually static and unmoving into
moving violations which serve as a basis for being allowed to ramp up
premium costs.  Non-moving violations do not cause increases in
premiums.  Can you see the BS game being played here?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

After being absent for a few days I really should read ahead before 
replying to old posts. Below pretty much covers my thoughts.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:18 AM, b_s-wilk wrote:

> Fred Holmes escribió:
>>> And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack 
>>> of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.
>> So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of 
>> healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs? 
> 
> The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical 
> practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them 
> either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent 
> doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business 
> when they should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That 
> could reduce insurance costs for everybody.
> 
> However, when Republicans talk about tort reform, they want to limit the 
> ability of patients who have been injured due to medical incompetence to have 
> their cases ineligible for hearings or trials. This injures more patients 
> without solving the problem, while also hurting the lawyers who file 
> legitimate cases, in effect, further denying coverage in multiple ways. "Tort 
> reform" in the US is a euphemism for keeping Democratic lawyers from helping 
> injured patients, solely because they're not Republican.
> 
> The liability and damage claims as a percentage of overall costs is less than 
> 5%. The biggest health insurance cost to consumers from private for-profit 
> companies is "overhead"--which is about 2-3% for Medicare, around 10% for 
> private non-profits, and 20-30% for the for-profit companies. The for-profit 
> companies made bad investments and raised premiums to make up for that, too. 
> So "tort reform" makes minimal difference when compared to having nonprofit 
> health insurance. After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses 
> and misfortunes, so why do many health health insurance executives have 
> multi-million dollar salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have 
> billion dollar profits?
> 
> That's what causes high premiums, not a trumped up "need" for tort reform.
> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

Fred, I'll be needing $10 from you, and all your friends, and their friends 
friends. But don't worry, I promise to think like you and we'll get that nasty 
bill crushed.


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:58 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:

> At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote:
>> After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so 
>> why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar 
>> salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits?
> 
> Let's do [some of] the math on this one.  The other day the CEO of one of the 
> health insurers said before Congress that she received $10M in compensation, 
> something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock options.  More or less.  Well 
> if it's a major medical insurer, surely it has 10 million policyholders in a 
> country of 300 million citizens.  So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay 
> the CEO compensation package?  Even if it were $10, that's not much.  And if 
> the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think that 
> she's worth it.  Huge enterprises are very difficult to make work well.  So 
> the government wants to trade in ten(? or more) insurance companies for one 
> huge organization that covers everybody, and pay the CEO of that how much?
> 
> Fred Holmes 
> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

My son is going through the same disappointment with his new car want. 
A Chevy Camaro, fully loaded is something he can afford, but the insurance will 
kill him. I asked if the seats lay all the way back so he could sleep in his 
car.
Insurance pricing is a joke. And the tort reform argument I think is 
also garbage. Kind of like the shop owner asking the thugs why he has to pay 
$100 more a month for protection. The thugs answer being, bullets and gasoline 
and bribes don't come cheap these days.


Jeff Miles
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Join my Mafia
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On Mar 1, 2010, at 6:19 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

> My youngest talks of the cars he would like to own, and given the right 
> circumstances could pay for.  (He is in college, but also the national guard 
> bringing in a regular income.)
> 
> Every car he would like to own, would be affordable except for insurance.
> 
> He could pay for the car, but the insurance would bankrupt him.  (Or in this 
> case me.)
> 
> So it always lurks there in the background.
> 
> Over the past few years we have dropped the number of full time clergy.  
> Largest reason cited why a church no longer has a full time pastor?  Cant 
> afford the insurance benefits.
> 
> Stewart
> 
> 
> At 08:07 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
>> A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad
>> he moved to another state.  Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new
>> practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth
>> doing. Those costs get passed on.
> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Jeff Miles]

Sorry, a bit late on this. Had a bit of life going on there.
Anyway, as I'm sure you'll know, figures are all over the map on this 
depending on who you listen to. But them best averages I've heard are about 1%. 
So how does that justify the percentages of price increases over the last few 
years?
I find it amusing that insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies 
needed no bailout. Didn't even hear a peep from them till healthcare reform was 
brought up again and to the forefront. I'm guessing they don't really need it. 
We're bailing them out on a daily basis. Wasn't it the insurance companies that 
just wanted a decrease in the percentage of a dollar they had to pay out to 
their clients? And wasn't this decrease, or increase, depending on how you look 
at it, even greater then what Vegas casinos are allowed?
So on the face of it, how friggen greedy do they have to get before 
someone starts calling foul? Especially when it's your and my money?


Jeff Miles
jmile...@charter.net

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On Mar 1, 2010, at 5:32 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:

> At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote:
>> And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack 
>> of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.
> 
> So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of 
> healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs? 
> 
> 
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two  
distinct components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the  
very conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian  
Beck, and the running-for-president Huckabee.


Their selection of the news they present and the light in which they  
present it are also slanted to the right. This kind of distortion is  
most insidious because it slowly brainwashes the viewer. Viewers don't  
even realize that they have been ever so cunningly transported to  
another planet.


Try watching WNVT's (DC Metro) feed of RT (Russian Television) for a  
while. You'll see how picking the stories and the angles skews the  
information. It will transport you to another planet.


I like using Google News' editing by algorithm. It gives me a variety  
of news sources and it is interesting to read the same story from  
different perspectives. Doing that I have learned that it is seldom  
worthwhile to read Fox News and more recently the Wall Street Journal  
(now also owned by Rupert Murdoch) is not a healthy place to get news.


For example, I was in Europe while the country was being brainwashed  
by the media so Bush could attack Iraq. I was amazed at the country's  
mindset. Today, at a terrible cost, most Americans know what I knew  
then.


These days one has to make an active effort to avoid media brainwashing.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[phartz...@gmail.com]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:20 PM, Steve at Verizon  wrote:

> Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in this
> article.

  I do not know if the figures and comparisons in the article are
accurate or not.  That is because, if for no other reason, the term
"efficient," which seems to be the one and only focus, is not
adequately defined.  Sort of like depending upon what the meaning of
"is" is.

  Secondly, only figures acquired from an adamantly right-wing think
tank are used along with figures generated by an organization that had
been hired by a private insurance giant, Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

  I am as leery of stuff like that as I am about press releases
straight from the White House, regardless of who is the President.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[John Duncan Yoyo]

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

> I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct
> components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative
> Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the
> running-for-president Huckabee.
>
> Some of their bias shows up in the choice of stories.  They ran away from
the President's meeting with Republicans earlier in the year presumably
because the Republicans were not coming off well.
--
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

Shepard Smith is also know for going off on Republicans, not Democrats
during his show.  He just did it again the other day.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

> I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct
> components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very conservative
> Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and the
> running-for-president Huckabee.
>
> I don't live on their planet.
>
> News, for me, consists of Fox News Sunday hosted by Chris Wallace (a
> Democrat), who bars no holds whether interviewing the right or the left, and
> Special Report with Bret Baier with straight news and a panel discussion
> with analysts from the right (Krouthammer), left (Juan Williams) and middle
> (Mara Liaason). I think both shows do a good job of covering all sides of
> major issues. But then, YMMV.
>
> (And, yes, much of their daytime shows are tabloid hoohah with car chases
> and Amber alerts, but I don't consider this news)
>
> And, before you say it, I've heard those on the left say they hate Fox
> because they believe the American people are too stupid to understand the
> difference between commentary and news.
>
> tjpa wrote:
>
>> On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the
>>> arguments on both sides of important issues.
>>>
>>
>> Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there.
>>
>>
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Steve at Verizon]

I know the name of the channel is Fox News, but there are two distinct 
components. Commentary and news. Commentary includes the very 
conservative Hannity, the populist O'Reilly, the libertarian Beck, and 
the running-for-president Huckabee.


I don't live on their planet.

News, for me, consists of Fox News Sunday hosted by Chris Wallace (a 
Democrat), who bars no holds whether interviewing the right or the left, 
and Special Report with Bret Baier with straight news and a panel 
discussion with analysts from the right (Krouthammer), left (Juan 
Williams) and middle (Mara Liaason). I think both shows do a good job of 
covering all sides of major issues. But then, YMMV.


(And, yes, much of their daytime shows are tabloid hoohah with car 
chases and Amber alerts, but I don't consider this news)


And, before you say it, I've heard those on the left say they hate Fox 
because they believe the American people are too stupid to understand 
the difference between commentary and news.


tjpa wrote:

On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote:

I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the
arguments on both sides of important issues.


Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:20 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in  
this article.


Read the comments. One in particular explains it quite clearly.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:34 PM, mike wrote:
I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to  
the

arguments on both sides of important issues.


Fox reports the news of a different planet. I don't live there.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

Apparently you haven't met Mr. Piwowar, ideologue extraordinaire and
sometime poker to keep the list hot.

 I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the
arguments on both sides of important issues.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

OK.  What altruist is going to come in and run health care?

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:19 PM, tjpa  wrote:

> On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:48 PM, mike wrote:
>
>> What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false
>> argument since there are none.
>>
>
> You live in a sad, sad world. Most of the rest of us don't.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Steve at Verizon]

Could you please be specific in what is wrong with the analysis in this 
article. And, yes, my view of the world comes from Fox News, along with 
CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, the New York Times, the Washington Post among others. 
I don't see how you can live on this planet and not pay attention to the 
arguments on both sides of important issues. This article seems to make 
sense to me; please convince me where I go wrong, and I'll change my 
opinion.


tjpa wrote:

On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:
http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/ 



If your view of the world comes from Fox News you are not living on 
this planet.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Steve at Verizon wrote:

http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/


If your view of the world comes from Fox News you are not living on  
this planet.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Try and shut down a hospital.

The feds have no controls over hospitals except for VA and 
military.  It is all state.


And the best they can do is to pull Medicaid funding from a 
hospital.  (Feds can pull Medicare funds, but only if they really screw up.)


Down here most hospitals are not community owned but private 
enterprises so they are owned by a corp!


Now an accrediting agency can pull accreditation on a hospital, but 
again, that is usually a very bold move for really screwing up.


But the answer is no federal agency can close a  public/private 
hospital down. (Except for the notation I made above)


Stewart



At 03:39 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:
And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad 
doctors and hospitals?  They could do that now, without changing 
healht insurance at all.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 6:48 PM, mike wrote:
What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a  
false

argument since there are none.


You live in a sad, sad world. Most of the rest of us don't.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

You are right there are no true altruists (sounds contradictory)

However there those who can run a business or agency who are not 
heavily influenced by one side or the other.


Most medical clinics are run by whom?  Doctors mostly.

A good insurance company will be run by someone who is paid a flat 
rate and is not influenced by performance bonuses etc.


One of the loses in modern society is people who work and have a 
sense of vocation or calling.  They do this as they feel this is what 
they are supposed to do, not earn an incredible amount of money and 
go elsewhere.  (trying to leave the God talk out of it.)


Stewart


At 05:48 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:

What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false
argument since there are none.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Steve at Verizon]

At least in Medicare, there are quite a few costs which go into the 
overhead of private insurance which are not counted in Medicare. See:


http://emac.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/08/26/medicare-more-efficient-than-private-insurance/

Analysis in this article demonstrates that the overhead is actually 
lower with private insurance than with Medicare on a per patient basis.


And as for the streamlined processing of Medicare, this is not done by a 
government agency but contracted out by CMS to private processors, in my 
case here in the DC area, it's Highmark Medicare Services


Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Part of it is lower overhead.

It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of 
60-70 %


I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and 
Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads.  Why?


Lower staff costs.  The directors of our charities have salaries that 
are in the low 100's.  No million $ salaries for our guys.  So with 
their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on 
comparison.


Plus streamlined processing of everything.

A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors, 
it is not about looking good.  (Costs of buildings is one huge 
difference.)


In church terms it is called stewardship of monies.  They have to be 
better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher.


Stewart






At 03:36 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:
I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. 
the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc.  If it 
really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad.  What 
is there about government administration that is so marvelous that 
the private sector can't do?


Fred Holmes



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

What altruist is going to come in and run health care...this is a false
argument since there are none.

On Mar 2, 2010 4:31 PM, "tjpa"  wrote:

On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Fred Holmes wrote: > > I suspect that the
government overhead is not pro...
Why do you expect people who are solely motivated by greed to do a better
job at caring for the sick than those who are motivated by altruism? That is
completely illogical. What you are promoting is death panels whose members
get bonuses tied to the number of people they condemn.

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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Do not think our folks run the latest and the greatest either.

Non profits are usually the last to upgrade their equipment as they 
do not get to depreciate their stuff, but have to justify all their expenses.


So far I have covered most of my own computer expenses in my church 
even to the point of supplying network equipment.


Church office got a new CPU a few years ago only because I pushed it.

Right now I need to approach them about a flat screen for my office 
as I am having sight problems (Simply old eyes and I need a larger view.)


I am hoping they will spring 150 or for a new one.  (not sure they 
tend to be very tight)


But even governmental units tend to be tight on equipment purchases.

Stewart



At 05:13 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:


Thank you. Exactly on target. I see the same thing myself as I visit
clients. When top management is there only for the money they bleed
the organization of resources to transfer as much money as possible to
themselves. Their employees are using computers that are much too old
and working around broken systems. They are running software that is
several versions back. Employees can barely get their jobs done.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:36 PM, Fred Holmes wrote:
I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g.  
the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc.  If it  
really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad.


Why do you expect people who are solely motivated by greed to do a  
better job at caring for the sick than those who are motivated by  
altruism? That is completely illogical. What you are promoting is  
death panels whose members get bonuses tied to the number of people  
they condemn.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Fred Holmes wrote:
And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad  
doctors and hospitals?


And why would they not? Do you say mockingly "And the _police_ are  
going to arrest bank robbers and murderers?" You bet they do. The  
government can function quite well thank you. That does not mean that  
it does not get subverted. Yes that happens too. Especially when wing  
nuts who despise government are in charge. (Look at the functioning of  
the EEOC under Bush for one example among many.) When allowed to do  
its job the government is full of dedicated people who are deeply  
committed to their jobs.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 2, 2010, at 5:00 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Part of it is lower overhead.
It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of  
60-70 %
I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and  
Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads.  Why?
Lower staff costs.  The directors of our charities have salaries  
that are in the low 100's.  No million $ salaries for our guys.  So  
with their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on  
comparison.

Plus streamlined processing of everything.
A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors,  
it is not about looking good.  (Costs of buildings is one huge  
difference.)
In church terms it is called stewardship of monies.  They have to be  
better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher.


Thank you. Exactly on target. I see the same thing myself as I visit  
clients. When top management is there only for the money they bleed  
the organization of resources to transfer as much money as possible to  
themselves. Their employees are using computers that are much too old  
and working around broken systems. They are running software that is  
several versions back. Employees can barely get their jobs done.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Part of it is lower overhead.

It is why some charities devote over 90% to the clients instead of 60-70 %

I know this is going to sound biased but Lutheran World Relief, and 
Bethesda (both Lutheran Charities) have very low overheads.  Why?


Lower staff costs.  The directors of our charities have salaries that 
are in the low 100's.  No million $ salaries for our guys.  So with 
their salaries being lower the staff salaries will be lower on comparison.


Plus streamlined processing of everything.

A governmental insurance agency is not about pleasing its investors, 
it is not about looking good.  (Costs of buildings is one huge difference.)


In church terms it is called stewardship of monies.  They have to be 
better stewards as the price for not being so, is much higher.


Stewart






At 03:36 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:
I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. 
the real estate occupied by the program administrators, etc.  If it 
really is only 3%, no wonder government health care is so bad.  What 
is there about government administration that is so marvelous that 
the private sector can't do?


Fred Holmes



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

At 07:18 PM 3/1/2010, tjpa wrote:
>If bad doctors and hospitals were closed down, insurance rates would  
>go down (provided that the insurance companies did not simply pocket  
>the money).

And the _government_ is going to do a better job of closing down bad doctors 
and hospitals?  They could do that now, without changing healht insurance at 
all.   


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Let me put it this way.  We often act it.

Moses oft uttered complaint was that they were a stiff necked people.

Think it describes us pretty accurately sometimes.

Stewart


At 03:29 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:

At 05:06 PM 3/1/2010, Robert Michael Abrams wrote:
>And, since we don't live in a culture that's wandering in the 
desert for 40 years,


Are you sure of that?


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

I suspect that the government overhead is not properly counted, e.g. the real 
estate occupied by the program administrators, etc.  If it really is only 3%, 
no wonder government health care is so bad.  What is there about government 
administration that is so marvelous that the private sector can't do?

Fred Holmes

At 07:13 PM 3/1/2010, tjpa wrote:
>Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of  
>around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of  
>around 30%.  That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big  
>chunk of change.


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Fred Holmes]

At 05:06 PM 3/1/2010, Robert Michael Abrams wrote:
>And, since we don't live in a culture that's wandering in the desert for 40 
>years,

Are you sure of that? 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[tjpa]

Well it looks like the availability of free broadband is not as well  
distributed across the country as I had thought. I stand corrected.


Does anybody know which of their top-10 competitors also offer free  
WiFi?


http://www.weathersealed.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/alliance.jpg


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Stewart Marshall]

If he were a government worker?

Most of the systems do not employee doctors.  They still work the 
exact same way doctors here work. Fee for service.


The problem comes in when a doctor tries to pad his fees by trying to 
opt for hi profit, hi income procedures without review.


I am not talking about emergency surgery stuff, but in this case it 
did not seem necessary since the client is still alive and doing well.


You missed the point, I am sorry.

Stewart



At 01:00 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote:

And I said if this guy was a government worker it would be much harder to
get rid of him. Thankfully we aren't and you can tell him to bugger off.

On Mar 2, 2010 11:40 AM, "Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)" 
wrote:

Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for?  This was a
referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under
a for-profit health plan.  The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it
was unnecessary so he could line his pocket.

Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally.

Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Much harder to get rid of
this guy under govern...


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

And I said if this guy was a government worker it would be much harder to
get rid of him. Thankfully we aren't and you can tell him to bugger off.

On Mar 2, 2010 11:40 AM, "Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)" 
wrote:

Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for?  This was a
referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under
a for-profit health plan.  The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it
was unnecessary so he could line his pocket.

Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally.

Thank you, Mark Snyder -Original Message- Much harder to get rid of
this guy under govern...


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policy, calmness, a m...


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

Mike, what are you talking about Government health care for?  This was a
referral from my primary doctor (get this checked by a specialist) under
a for-profit health plan.  The doctor wanted to perform surgery when it
was unnecessary so he could line his pocket.

Sheesh, peel-back the tin foil occasionally.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than
free
market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)
 wrote:

> The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse
> incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive.  A
> 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive
> diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI.  When I went for follow-up, he could
> not find the x-rays.  He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but
> got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he
> thought surgery was necessary.  He acted indignant and I got disgusted
> and told him I would not be coming back.  I could not shake the
> impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not
> explain to me.  I got well and never did the surgery.  I will never go
> back to that jerk.
>
> Thank you,
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see
> how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its
> customers to save money.
>
>
>

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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Ellen Rains Harris]

Then cowboy up and buy the Globe and Mail article.  It's even more 
horrifying.,


- Original Message - 
From: "tjpa" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for 
broadband availability]




On Mar 1, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


Unfortunately it is in the ultra kooky National Review. It is hard to 
accept the case they make for anything.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[mike]

Much harder to get rid of this guy under government health care than free
market health care...just look at how hard it is to fire teachers.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:57 AM, Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)  wrote:

> The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse
> incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive.  A
> 'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive
> diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI.  When I went for follow-up, he could
> not find the x-rays.  He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but
> got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he
> thought surgery was necessary.  He acted indignant and I got disgusted
> and told him I would not be coming back.  I could not shake the
> impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not
> explain to me.  I got well and never did the surgery.  I will never go
> back to that jerk.
>
> Thank you,
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see
> how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its
> customers to save money.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


Unfortunately it is in the ultra kooky National Review. It is hard to  
accept the case they make for anything.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)]

The way this country privatizes everything seems to provide a perverse
incentive for doctors inclined to profit as their primary motive.  A
'specialist' I went to a couple years ago sent me to get expensive
diagnostic scans, x-rays and MRI.  When I went for follow-up, he could
not find the x-rays.  He insisted I needed an outpatient surgery, but
got angry when I asked him to discuss it, alternatives and why he
thought surgery was necessary.  He acted indignant and I got disgusted
and told him I would not be coming back.  I could not shake the
impression that he just wanted to get paid for surgery he would not
explain to me.  I got well and never did the surgery.  I will never go
back to that jerk.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see  
how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its  
customers to save money.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Correct and it never should.

Medicine like other fields of science are ever changing fields of 
treatments and surgeries etc.


Any one who does this is guilty of medical malpractice.

Stewart


At 10:09 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Stewart,

Right, most of us are eligible for disability upon diagnosis of 
Pulmonary Hypertension, so whatever the Ontario version of Medicare 
is what they would have been using, and secondly, my treatments 
aren't pharmaceuticals, but treatments, billed like chemotherapy 
(except I'll be taking them for the rest of my life).


It's more of a case of "one size not fitting all".


- Original Message - From: "Stewart Marshall" 


To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls 
for broadband availability]




Ellen I am a little curious.

OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions.  That was a separate 
private insurance.


Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial 
Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things.


So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her 
coverage, but the provincial authorities which did this.


Still does not justify it.

Stewart

At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


- Original Message - From: "tjpa" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls 
for broadband availability]




On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

We need reform.  This isn't it.


I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I 
don't see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer 
murdering its  customers to save money.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Ellen Rains Harris]

Stewart,

Right, most of us are eligible for disability upon diagnosis of Pulmonary 
Hypertension, so whatever the Ontario version of Medicare is what they would 
have been using, and secondly, my treatments aren't pharmaceuticals, but 
treatments, billed like chemotherapy (except I'll be taking them for the 
rest of my life).


It's more of a case of "one size not fitting all".


- Original Message - 
From: "Stewart Marshall" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for 
broadband availability]




Ellen I am a little curious.

OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions.  That was a separate private 
insurance.


Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial 
Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things.


So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her coverage, but 
the provincial authorities which did this.


Still does not justify it.

Stewart

At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


- Original Message - From: "tjpa" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for 
broadband availability]




On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

We need reform.  This isn't it.


I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see 
how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its  customers 
to save money.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Stewart Marshall]

Ellen I am a little curious.

OHIP did not usually cover prescriptions.  That was a separate 
private insurance.


Once you became a senior or for other circumstances the provincial 
Ministry of Health might be the ones who would cover these things.


So what I am saying was that it was not OHIP that denied her 
coverage, but the provincial authorities which did this.


Still does not justify it.

Stewart

At 08:51 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


- Original Message - From: "tjpa" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls 
for broadband availability]




On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

We need reform.  This isn't it.


I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't 
see how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering 
its  customers to save money.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Ellen Rains Harris]

Read the article.  Bonnie has already died.


- Original Message - 
From: "tjpa" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for 
broadband availability]




On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

We need reform.  This isn't it.


I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see 
how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its  customers 
to save money.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Ellen Rains Harris wrote:

We need reform.  This isn't it.


I was writing about over supply and low utilization rates. I don't see  
how you can fairly leap from that to an insurer murdering its  
customers to save money.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Robert Carroll]

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

I really much prefer Augustine of Hippos comment.

"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet"

Stewart

At  06:25 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Moderation in all things is good.

Stewart


I always liked this quotation.  Particularly since it means that 
moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to 
permitting excess in all else.

There you go!  A man of wisdom, Augustine, I say.

Chastity  and continence (I assume from the latter word, maybe being 
similar to the former word: meaning to refrain from sexual intercourse 
instead of a second meaning of peeing or pooping involuntarily) comes 
with the development of wisdom for those who actually develop wisdom 
with age.  Lucky is the man (or woman) who gains wisdom before gaining 
chastity & continence.


In my opinion, very lucky are those who survive long after developing 
their chastity and continence. 



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Where I live in South East Alabama, there are at least 4 MRI and CT 
machines serving a population of 100K.  That also may be a little 
under as some doctor groups may have their own machines.


My in-laws live in Northern Ontario.  They need to travel a minimum 
of 60 miles and possibly 90 miles to get to their closet MRI/CT 
machines to serve a similar population.


When I lived in North Central Wisconsin it was similar.  But since 
that time these machines have sprung up all over the place.


Stewart

At 07:32 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:


Ontario does something in addition to limiting crazy high management
salaries. They also manage capital expenditures and utilization rates.
That leads to further savings. In the USA we have doctors setting up
their own CT centers. That leads to too many CT machines, low
utilization, and high cost. It also leads to a conflict of interest
for their doctor owners.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Ellen Rains Harris]

Ontario's Health Insurance Plan would kill me and several of my friends.

I have a rare disease, and my meds run about $30k monthly.  I take three 
meds daily.


My friend Cindy Waters-Goodman is losing this option because she lives in 
Ontario.  The Globe and Mail has already locked up the story, but 
(unfortunately) National Review has a good shot at it at 
http://healthcare.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2ZjMTk2NDllN2Y5MTMwMTdjOWVkODY3YTM4ZDU2ZGU


Briefly, Ontario pays for only one treatment, and if you have private 
insurance which pays for one, then they pay for none.  She needs two.  I 
need three.


We need reform.  This isn't it.


- Original Message - 
From: "Rev. Stewart Marshall" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for 
broadband availability]




Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan)

I think they have the same rates you quote Tom.

By the way it is done very similarly to what the insurance plans do down 
here.


They negotiate a set rate with Doctors and Hospitals etc.

The biggest difference is that they limit technology.  Where we might have 
1 CT machine and MRI for 25K they would be 1 CT machine and MRI to 250K.


One statistic that has been shown to be true down here, is introduce more 
technology and doctors use it, plus are encouraged to use it to justify 
costs of obtaining it.


Stewart


At 06:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of

around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of
around 30%.  That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big
chunk of change.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:28 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan)
I think they have the same rates you quote Tom.


Ontario does something in addition to limiting crazy high management  
salaries. They also manage capital expenditures and utilization rates.  
That leads to further savings. In the USA we have doctors setting up  
their own CT centers. That leads to too many CT machines, low  
utilization, and high cost. It also leads to a conflict of interest  
for their doctor owners.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:51 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:

This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work.


No, this says that laissez-faire lack of regulation is a deadly mistake.

Worse, instead of fixing the problem, the wing nut solution is to  
protect the evil doers and take away the injured people's right to  
compensation.


If bad doctors and hospitals were closed down, insurance rates would  
go down (provided that the insurance companies did not simply pocket  
the money).



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

I really much prefer Augustine of Hippos comment.

"Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet"

Stewart

At  06:25 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Moderation in all things is good.

Stewart


I always liked this quotation.  Particularly since it means that 
moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to 
permitting excess in all else.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

No I mean minimal regulations.

You are one of the lucky few who get to use the VA system.

I served 11 years in the reserves and I am not allowed to use the VA system.

In order to use the VA you must be eligible and that number is 
climbing once again after dropping off.


It is a very good system over all.

My sons companion uses it as he is a DAV (Officially now)  My 
youngest might be able to use it, but they will usually not credit 
training time for VA eligibility.


They have a good compliment of staff and support staff.  I have known 
a few VA chaplains in my time good folks.  (I also knew a VA Doc, and 
again top notch)


And because you are using a federal system you are limited on tort options.

What you highlighted is a very huge disparity between the normal 
system most everyone has to use and the federal system that the 
eligible few get to use.


Blessings on the fact that you are eligible to use the VA and 
do.  Some of my memebrs use it and are very pleased.


Stewart



At 06:23 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 03:59 PM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


Only those [VA and military] hospitals and they are minimal at best.


 What do you mean "minimal?" Do you mean few in number? If so, 
how many are there, and how do you know?


All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no 
federal guidelines.


 I don't "normally" use any hospital beyond a VA hospital.

Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a 
routine basis?


 Yes. In fact, I do.


Also note they have very limited tort options.


 What do you mean "very limited?" Why do you believe the FTCA 
doesn't provide most claimants with reasonable, if not complete, tort relief?


 There exists an entire infrastructure within the VA, and a 
number of outside non-profit orgs, to help people with claims to file them.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
End

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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 
03/01/10 07:34:00



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Robert Carroll]

Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

Moderation in all things is good.

Stewart


I always liked this quotation.  Particularly since it means that 
moderation in following the advice of the quotation is tantamount to 
permitting excess in all else.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Check out OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan)

I think they have the same rates you quote Tom.

By the way it is done very similarly to what the insurance plans do down here.

They negotiate a set rate with Doctors and Hospitals etc.

The biggest difference is that they limit technology.  Where we might 
have 1 CT machine and MRI for 25K they would be 1 CT machine and MRI to 250K.


One statistic that has been shown to be true down here, is introduce 
more technology and doctors use it, plus are encouraged to use it to 
justify costs of obtaining it.


Stewart


At 06:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of

around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of
around 30%.  That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big
chunk of change.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Robert Michael Abrams]

At 03:59 PM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


Only those [VA and military] hospitals and they are minimal at best.


 What do you mean "minimal?" Do you mean few in number? If so, how 
many are there, and how do you know?


All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no federal 
guidelines.


 I don't "normally" use any hospital beyond a VA hospital.

Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a routine 
basis?


 Yes. In fact, I do.


Also note they have very limited tort options.


 What do you mean "very limited?" Why do you believe the FTCA doesn't 
provide most claimants with reasonable, if not complete, tort relief?


 There exists an entire infrastructure within the VA, and a number of 
outside non-profit orgs, to help people with claims to file them.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
End 



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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 03/01/10 
07:34:00


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

They are religious elitists and I would claim that they do know God 
any better than I do.


The one who is supposed to be worshiped and listened to is God.  If I 
am not speaking what God has given us (that is where we put scripture 
the source and norm, not me) than I am like a clanging gong.  Just 
noise.  I see a lot of noise out there.


Stewart


At 04:07 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 10:30 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


Our duty to God and our Duty to one another.


 There is a multi-billion dollar industry, in organized 
religion and televangelism, chock-full of people, limited, biased, 
ignorant, stupid, fallible, vain, gullible, egocentric, mortal 
people, who claim they know what everybody else's duties both to 
God and to one's fellow man is, and they know these things better 
than anyone else. Particularly better than you.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
End

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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2716 - Release Date: 
03/01/10 07:34:00



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

At 04:06 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
 When the Commandments were delivered, there were no nations 
surrounding them. The were in the desert for 40 years.



 Jews in the desert. Oy!

Yeah and not even finding oil.  :-)


(Such as the bumper stickers down here, live the 10 commandments.)


 Which is entirely and insultingly un-American, since (despite 
the clear respective intents and spirits of the free exercise and 
establishment clauses) it posits that others should abide by the 
religious beliefs and practices of the bumper sticker owner, rather 
than their own, if any.


Note I don't agree with it either as I live under the Gospel and not 
the law.  Such that I am supposed to live under the government and 
law that is given.  As long as it allows me to believe and worship as 
God has called me.  So far that has not been a huge problem.



Instead they were a covenant between a people and a king


 I don't recall there being any kings in the desert for 40 
years, Stewart. Please refresh my memory.


   Bob


God was supposed to be there King but they did note even get that right either.

Stewart


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:14 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
Haven't heard that argument or of Sprouts? But paying for our own  
health care? What a concept! But in reality, due to the insurance  
industry, that's become an impossibility with the exception of  
dealing with a few scrapes a bruises or just ignoring any health  
concerns in hope they'll go away


That's right. Most doctors will not even grant you an appointment  
without a referral from the insurance company.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:
Let's do [some of] the math on this one.  The other day the CEO of  
one of the health insurers said before Congress that she received  
$10M in compensation, something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock  
options.  More or less.  Well if it's a major medical insurer,  
surely it has 10 million policyholders in a country of 300 million  
citizens.  So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay the CEO  
compensation package?  Even if it were $10, that's not much.  And if  
the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think  
that she's worth it.  Huge enterprises are very difficult to make  
work well.  So the government wants to trade in ten(? or more)  
insurance companies for one huge organization that covers everybody,  
and pay the CEO of that how much?


Bad math. Government run heath care (here and abroad) has overhead of  
around 3%. Private insurance companies in the US have overhead of  
around 30%.  That difference is 27% of total premiums. Quite a big  
chunk of change.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Only those hospitals and they are minimal at best.

All other hospitals that you or I would normally use have no federal 
guidelines.


Can you get treated at a VA hospital or a military hospital on a routine basis?

Also note they have very limited tort options.

Stewart


At 04:05 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 10:07 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals.


 That isn't true, Stewart. You have overlooked the respective 
sections of both the US Code, and the CFR, which deal with military 
hospitals and VA hospitals.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
End

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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Robert Michael Abrams]

At 10:30 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


Our duty to God and our Duty to one another.


 There is a multi-billion dollar industry, in organized religion and 
televangelism, chock-full of people, limited, biased, ignorant, stupid, 
fallible, vain, gullible, egocentric, mortal people, who claim they know 
what everybody else's duties both to God and to one's fellow man is, and 
they know these things better than anyone else. Particularly better than you.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Robert Michael Abrams]

At 05:35 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:

Yes the regulator is divine but people often have the wrong view of the 10 
commandments.


 I was about to get to that.

They were also prescriptive telling the Israelites how they were to live 
with one another and the nations that surround them.


 When the Commandments were delivered, there were no nations 
surrounding them. The were in the desert for 40 years.


 Jews in the desert. Oy!


Taken out of context they simply become a set of rules.


 That's right, Stewart. And, since we don't live in a culture that's 
wandering in the desert for 40 years, they are, when we apply them here, 
entirely and necessarily out of context. People who are terrified of what 
other people do in private LOVE to cite this commandment or that in order 
to give themselves a vote (God's vote, as they claim to see it) which 
allows them to control the private behavior of others.



(Such as the bumper stickers down here, live the 10 commandments.)


 Which is entirely and insultingly un-American, since (despite the 
clear respective intents and spirits of the free exercise and establishment 
clauses) it posits that others should abide by the religious beliefs and 
practices of the bumper sticker owner, rather than their own, if any.


 Be careful, here. I didn't mention anybody's "rights."


Instead they were a covenant between a people and a king


 I don't recall there being any kings in the desert for 40 years, 
Stewart. Please refresh my memory.



(they follow the other covenantal models of its time.)


 That's right. The Ten Commandments weren't binding unless everybody 
got circumcised.


 Again.


describing how the people were to interact and live.


 Yes. How they were to interact and live so that they didn't wipe each 
other out while they were still in the desert for 40 years. Moses wanted to 
keep the interpersonal conflicts to a minimum, until the 
40-years-in-the-desert portion of The Exodus was complete, so he proscribed 
murdering, lying, adultery (and its necessary adjunct, coveting) and theft, 
just to name the chart-toppers, and he mandated a measure of domestic 
tranquility by requiring children to give their parents their due. He 
wanted to keep Judaism alive, so he mandated the Abrahamic understanding of 
monotheism, which, as all of you already well know, does not permit idols 
(golden, American, or rock and roll) before You-Know-Who.


 Well, we aren't in the desert for 40 years anymore, so, except for 
the clearly ethical prohibitions (murder, theft, lying), which any 
civilized society needs in order for its members to have any confidence in 
it, maybe people should be free to decide for themselves how to order their 
relationships with God, if they believe in Him/Her/It/Them, and the other 
people they share the planet with. Where is there scriptural support for 
the notion that the commandments are absolute and eternal? Only people who 
think they speak for God, and claim to, or claim that they know Him better 
than the rest of us, make such claims. Only people. Limited, biased, 
ignorant, stupid, fallible, vain, gullible, egocentric, mortal people. [You 
can't see it, but my hand is raised here.]


 If you don't believe in God, then, to you, the Ten Commandments 
aren't divinely-inspired, in any event, and there exists nothing to prevent 
you from scrutinizing each one on its merits, or lack thereof, until the 
cows come home. But if you DO believe in God, then you necessarily believe 
He gave us (either by Himself, or through Darwinian natural selection) 
brains with a great deal of cerebral cortex. Blind, dogmatic, and 
unthinking adherence to a set of 3500 year-old rules is an insult to He who 
gave us that gift. The very fact of the human brain means, obviously and 
inarguably (as I see it, anyway), He WANTED us to think. He WANTED us to 
question and probe. Failure to do so does justice neither to one's Maker, 
if any, nor to those He made.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Robert Michael Abrams]

At 09:35 PM 2/28/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:

Bob I have no need to convince anyone of what I believe, but when asked I 
will explain it.


 Thank you for responding, Stewart. However, I didn't mention the act 
of convincing others of "what [you] believe." I spoke, instead, of 
attempting to convince others that what you believe (as an article of 
religious faith, doctrine, or dogma) is, somehow, empirical fact or, to use 
your word, "reality." Those are two very different behaviors.


Also note that I believe it to be truth, but am aware that what I believe 
is truth may not be what others believe.


 That really isn't what I was talking about. I was, instead, talking 
about attempting to convince others, whether or not they believed what you 
believe, that what you believe (again, as an article of religious faith) 
is, as I said, empirical fact.


 The word "truth," as you use it here, is ambiguous and, arguably, 
quibbling and equivocating. "Truth" has empirical and objective 
connotations, so to use it when you are referring to something out of 
subjectively-held religious doctrine or dogma, without specifically stating 
clearly that that's what you're doing, could easily be perceived as 
misleading. That is, it could easily appear that you are holding out your 
religious belief as being empirically factual, which, as I pointed out 
above, simply cannot be the case. Ever. Plus, it reveals how weak your 
faith is.


 Any attempt even to suggest, let alone to argue, that some article of 
religious faith is "reality" or "truth," such that those who don't share 
your religious views are, nevertheless, bound, empirically, by such 
article, is insulting to any American who values the free exercise clause 
of the First Amendment. And if something like that is done by the 
government, it's a violation of the establishment clause, and it is called, 
in its hardball forms, theocracy. Like "under God," in the pledge of 
allegiance, and "In God We Trust," on our currency.



The reality I stated is that people are dual natured.


 But, you framed this duality as an article of religious faith. Within 
that particular welter, it cannot be "reality," to the extent that 
"reality" is what is experienced by people who reject your religious 
beliefs. And if you're attempting to convince others that your article of 
faith is empirically real, as opposed to imaginary or subjectively 
faith-based, then you reveal, as I said previously, how weak your faith is.


 However, if you want to take your observation out of your religion, 
and provide some empirical, and objectively-appraisable, evidence of 
duality, to place it within the welter of, let's say, sociology (I picked 
that particular discipline because you and I have been here before, 
Stewart, and I rely upon the definition of sociology that I proposed last 
time, which was "the scientific study of human interaction"), then your 
attempt to convince me, scientifically, of the duality of nature becomes, 
well, scientific, and, thus, it says nothing at all about your religious 
faith. Or anyone else's.


I cant remember the old axiom but I think it is keep your friends close, 
but keep your enemies closer.


 That was Michael Corleone (Al Pacino), in "The Godfather II," talking 
to Frank Pentangeli (Michael Vincente Gazzo) about Hyman Roth (Lee Strasberg).


 Maybe you're more perspicacious than I, but I don't see the 
application of that saying to this discussion. But you can probably fill 
entire libraries with books of stuff that I don't see or understand.


 BTW, Pentangeli's salient remark in the above scene was something 
like, "Your father did BUSINESS with Hyman Roth. Your father RESPECTED 
Hyman Roth. But your father never TRUSTED Hyman Roth."


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Robert Michael Abrams]

At 10:07 AM 3/1/2010, Stewart Marshall  wrote:


There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals.


 That isn't true, Stewart. You have overlooked the respective sections 
of both the US Code, and the CFR, which deal with military hospitals and VA 
hospitals.


   Bob

I'm on the case, from outer space!

OK
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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Fred Holmes]

Without even watching the video, of course only two will do.  Jesus said so.

1.  Love thy God. . .
2.  Love thy Neighbor. . .

Fred Holmes

At 11:27 AM 3/1/2010, Reid Katan wrote:
>You don't need ten. Apparently Two will do.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

There is no regulation.

Hospitals are allowed to operate based on state guidelines and review boards.

There is no federal guidelines on Hospitals.

Just like doctors you have 50 different sets of guidelines out there.

Stewart


At 10:51 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote:
>The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that 
medical practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't 
police them either until too many patients are harmed. In too many 
cases, incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad 
hospitals, are still in business when they should be shut down and 
have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs 
for everybody.


This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work.

Fred Holmes


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote:
>After all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so 
>why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar 
>salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits?

Let's do [some of] the math on this one.  The other day the CEO of one of the 
health insurers said before Congress that she received $10M in compensation, 
something like $1M in salary and $9M in stock options.  More or less.  Well if 
it's a major medical insurer, surely it has 10 million policyholders in a 
country of 300 million citizens.  So it cost about $1 per policyholder to pay 
the CEO compensation package?  Even if it were $10, that's not much.  And if 
the CEO makes the organization of that size work well, I would think that she's 
worth it.  Huge enterprises are very difficult to make work well.  So the 
government wants to trade in ten(? or more) insurance companies for one huge 
organization that covers everybody, and pay the CEO of that how much?

Fred Holmes 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

1.)  Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your 
strength, with all your mind and with all your soul.

2.)  Love you neighbor as yourself.

A summation of the two tables of the law.

Our duty to God and our Duty to one another.

Stewart



At 11:03 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Without even watching the video, of course only two will do.  Jesus said so.

1.  Love thy God. . .
2.  Love thy Neighbor. . .

Fred Holmes

At 11:27 AM 3/1/2010, Reid Katan wrote:
>You don't need ten. Apparently Two will do.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

You are not too far from the truth.

There were two tablets, two copies of the law.  One was the peoples 
the other was the kings.


Just like today when you sign a contract there are at least two 
copies of the documents.


Stewart

At 10:30 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

Actually, there were fifteen--three tablets of five each--but Mel 
Brooks dropped one of them.


"God has given unto me these fifteen--oy--TEN commandments."



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

It was also proscriptive.


Well that is even worse. Who wants a bossy God? I think that other  
denomination will give me a better deal.



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:11 AM, Fred Holmes wrote:
There is no presentation of the "science" to the user and allowing  
the user to decide his own risk tolerance.


The wing nuts would have us all assemble out own chemical testing lab  
and drag it around with us every time we go to the supermarket. I  
think they call it "freedom to poison."



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

At 11:18 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote:
>The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical 
>practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them either 
>until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, incompetent doctors who 
>maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are still in business when they 
>should be shut down and have medical licenses taken away. That could reduce 
>insurance costs for everybody.

This says to me that real-world regulation doesn't work.

Fred Holmes 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[tjpa]

On Mar 1, 2010, at 2:44 AM, Jeff Miles wrote:
Actually I'm all for arguing against certain regulation. Try  
remodeling your house and having a city inspector come by. You'll be  
all against regulation.


I did and the inspectors were wonderful. They did more than inspect,  
they explained and educated. They made it a point to tell me ahead of  
time about things that people often got wrong. They dropped hints when  
they spotted things that were to code, but could have been done  
better. I was happy to have an extra pair of eyes making sure that my  
addition was built well. Why are the wing nuts always so supportive of  
crooked builders and crooked bankers?



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Fred Holmes]

At 10:45 AM 3/1/2010, b_s-wilk wrote:
>The genius of the Ten Commandments--whether intentional or not--is that there 
>are ten proscriptions, and everything else is OK. The Bill of Rights is 
>similar, providing protections, but needed elaboration, hence the current 
>number of Constitutional Amendments to protect the rights of individuals and 
>minorities.
>
>For those who aren't familiar with the rest of the commandments, there were 
>actually over 600. We're lucky that K.I.S.S. weeded out most of the noxious 
>ones, mostly from Leviticus. Or Moses got tired of chiseling into stone when 
>he got to ten.

Now there's a real scholar!

Fred Holmes 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Reid Katan]

Quoting Fred Holmes :


At 01:07 AM 3/1/2010, t.piwowar wrote:

Lest we forget, the Ten Commandments is "regulation."


But, at least in this case, the "regulator" is divine.


You don't need ten. Apparently Two will do.



Of course, it's Carlin, so. . .enter at your own risk.


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Chris Dunford]

> For those who aren't familiar with the rest of the commandments, there
> were actually over 600. We're lucky that K.I.S.S. weeded out most of the
> noxious ones, mostly from Leviticus. Or Moses got tired of chiseling
> into stone when he got to ten.

Actually, there were fifteen--three tablets of five each--but Mel Brooks 
dropped one of them.

"God has given unto me these fifteen--oy--TEN commandments."


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[b_s-wilk]

Fred Holmes escribió:


And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of 
tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.


So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of 
healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs? 


The main problem with high insurance costs for consumers is that medical 
practitioners are not policing themselves, and states don't police them 
either until too many patients are harmed. In too many cases, 
incompetent doctors who maim or kill patients, and bad hospitals, are 
still in business when they should be shut down and have medical 
licenses taken away. That could reduce insurance costs for everybody.


However, when Republicans talk about tort reform, they want to limit the 
ability of patients who have been injured due to medical incompetence to 
have their cases ineligible for hearings or trials. This injures more 
patients without solving the problem, while also hurting the lawyers who 
file legitimate cases, in effect, further denying coverage in multiple 
ways. "Tort reform" in the US is a euphemism for keeping Democratic 
lawyers from helping injured patients, solely because they're not 
Republican.


The liability and damage claims as a percentage of overall costs is less 
than 5%. The biggest health insurance cost to consumers from private 
for-profit companies is "overhead"--which is about 2-3% for Medicare, 
around 10% for private non-profits, and 20-30% for the for-profit 
companies. The for-profit companies made bad investments and raised 
premiums to make up for that, too. So "tort reform" makes minimal 
difference when compared to having nonprofit health insurance. After 
all, it's immoral to profit from others' illnesses and misfortunes, so 
why do many health health insurance executives have multi-million dollar 
salaries and benefits, and insurance companies have billion dollar profits?


That's what causes high premiums, not a trumped up "need" for tort reform.


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[b_s-wilk]

The genius of the Ten Commandments--whether intentional or not--is that 
there are ten proscriptions, and everything else is OK. The Bill of 
Rights is similar, providing protections, but needed elaboration, hence 
the current number of Constitutional Amendments to protect the rights of 
individuals and minorities.


For those who aren't familiar with the rest of the commandments, there 
were actually over 600. We're lucky that K.I.S.S. weeded out most of the 
noxious ones, mostly from Leviticus. Or Moses got tired of chiseling 
into stone when he got to ten.




Rev. Stewart Marshall escribió:


Only if you look at it that way

It was also proscriptive.

>So regulation is both a good thing and a bad thing depending on how
>it is done.

Lest we forget, the Ten Commandments is "regulation."



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[mike]

Try reading it.  It's strength is it's lack of regulation on the *people*
and regulation on the government.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:16 AM, b_s-wilk  wrote:

> mike escribió:
>
>
>  And the Constitution is a specific lack of regulation.  Madison didn't
>> even
>> want a bill of rights for fear it would weaken the individual by
>> enumerating
>> specific rights, thus perhaps conversely weakening the power of citizens
>> by
>> the absence of other rights.
>>
>
> Hardly. The existence of a Constitution, is the existence of regulation.
> The Constitution defines the legal structure of our government, with
> guidelines defining the kinds of laws that enforce restrictions and
> regulations.
>
> What you're defining is anarchy.
>
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[b_s-wilk]

mike escribió:


And the Constitution is a specific lack of regulation.  Madison didn't even
want a bill of rights for fear it would weaken the individual by enumerating
specific rights, thus perhaps conversely weakening the power of citizens by
the absence of other rights.


Hardly. The existence of a Constitution, is the existence of regulation. 
The Constitution defines the legal structure of our government, with 
guidelines defining the kinds of laws that enforce restrictions and 
regulations.


What you're defining is anarchy.


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

Yeah, but how **significant** a difference?  Quantitative measure is what I'm 
looking for.  Surely some think tank has run the numbers?

Fred Holmes

At 08:44 AM 3/1/2010, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>Enough to make a difference in cost and practice.
>
>Stewart
>
>
>At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
>>At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote:
>>>And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack 
>>>of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.
>>
>>So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of 
>>healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs?


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

My youngest talks of the cars he would like to own, and given the 
right circumstances could pay for.  (He is in college, but also the 
national guard bringing in a regular income.)


Every car he would like to own, would be affordable except for insurance.

He could pay for the car, but the insurance would bankrupt him.  (Or 
in this case me.)


So it always lurks there in the background.

Over the past few years we have dropped the number of full time 
clergy.  Largest reason cited why a church no longer has a full time 
pastor?  Cant afford the insurance benefits.


Stewart


At 08:07 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad
he moved to another state.  Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new
practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth
doing. Those costs get passed on.



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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[John Duncan Yoyo]

A friend of mine who was an OB in Pennsylvania said the insurance was so bad
he moved to another state.  Imagine the costs of starting or buying a new
practice and you can think of what the insurance must cost to make it worth
doing. Those costs get passed on.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall <
revsamarsh...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Enough to make a difference in cost and practice.
>
> Stewart
>
>
>
> At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:
>
>> At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote:
>> >And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the
>> lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.
>>
>> So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of
>> healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs?
>>
>>
>> *
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-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Enough to make a difference in cost and practice.

Stewart


At 07:32 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote:
>And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up 
the lack of tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.


So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost 
of healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs?



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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Yes the regulator is divine but people often have the wrong view of 
the 10 commandments.  They were also prescriptive telling the 
Israelites how they were to live with one another and the nations 
that surround them.


Taken out of context they simply become a set of rules.  (Such as the 
bumper stickers down here, live the 10 commandments.)  Instead they 
were a covenant between a people and a king (they follow the other 
covenantal models of its time.) describing how the people were to 
interact and live.


It was both prescriptive and proscriptive.  (In other words not just 
one sided.)


Stewart


At 07:22 AM 3/1/2010, you wrote:

At 01:07 AM 3/1/2010, t.piwowar wrote:
>Lest we forget, the Ten Commandments is "regulation."

But, at least in this case, the "regulator" is divine.


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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Re: [CGUYS] Evil people [Was: Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability]

[Fred Holmes]

At 02:14 AM 3/1/2010, Jeff Miles wrote:
>And I'm sure you're not one of those uneducated who will bring up the lack of 
>tort reform as a reason for high insurance costs.

So how much does liability insurance / damage claims add to the cost of 
healthcare?  As a percentage of overall costs? 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Fred Holmes]

At 01:07 AM 3/1/2010, t.piwowar wrote:
>Lest we forget, the Ten Commandments is "regulation."

But, at least in this case, the "regulator" is divine. 


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Re: [CGUYS] FCC head calls for broadband availability

[Fred Holmes]

The problem with regulation is that the regulators are humans just like the 
regulated.  They are as corrupt and as incompetent as the regulated.  Moreover, 
there is no good way to judge the performance of the regulators, so they tend 
to stay in the job forever, protected by civil service rules.  Judging the 
regulators by the number of cases brought and/or won just leads to additional 
corruption.  To get promoted, the regulators must have wins, so they "create" 
some.

And then regulation bring rules such as the "Delaney clause" which requires 
that suspected carcinogens must be eliminated from products down to 
infinitesimal levels of presence, no matter how much good the product is doing 
nor how costly the elimination is.  There is no presentation of the "science" 
to the user and allowing the user to decide his own risk tolerance.

Fred Holmes

At 08:34 PM 2/28/2010, tjpa wrote:
>On Feb 28, 2010, at 8:10 PM, mike wrote:
>>It's frightening to think there are some out there who believe all
>>regulation is inherently good.
>
>No body wrote that. There are certainly a percent or two of  
>regulations that are not beneficial. Those will, of course, be the  
>only regulations that the neocons will want to talk about.


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