Re: Spam Moderation

[daemeon reiydelle]

In spite of what was intended to be an out of channel email (thank you
gmail for deciding to change the email address, grr ;{)

I both recognize that these resources exist, think that they are not
appropriate for this channel, but think they ARE appropriate "in some other
channel". Given the number of recruiters who contact me based on my (more
intelligent at times) postings to this list, there IS a wider audience
listening to this than we think. Therefore I thought it interesting and
insightful to hear the responses.

I agree it is off topic, but IMO do not consider it spam.


*...*



*Daemeon C.M. ReiydelleUSA (+1) 415.501.0198London (+44) (0) 20 8144 9872*

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Eric Evans 
wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Michael Shuler 
> wrote:
> > I won't reply to the obvious spam to hilight it any further, so new
> > message..
> >
> > Could the mailing list moderator that approved the "client list" message
> > identify themselves and possibly explain how that was seen as a valid
> > message about the development of Apache Cassandra?
>
> TL;DR That would be me.
>
> My policy in moderating this list has always been to ignore the
> obvious spam, and default to letting everything else through.  IMO, to
> apply judgment beyond that is a very slippery slope.  Transparency and
> openness are more important to me than protecting everyone from the
> occasional false-positive spam and/or possibly off-topic message.
>
> I also bang through the messages in the queue pretty quickly and make
> the Obvious Spam -or- not judgement almost reflexively.  In this case,
> I guess the lack of HTML, images, or attachments, along with the
> presence of words like "Datastax", and "client" triggered a snap Not
> Spam reaction and I sent it through.
>
> But at least some of the reaction here seems to extend beyond a simple
> matter of a spam message on the list (that has happened before); Some
> here seem to be reacting out of concern to the very existence of the
> email, which makes me think it's precisely the sort of thing that
> shouldn't be kept hidden.
>
>
> --
> Eric Evans
> john.eric.ev...@gmail.com
>

Re: Spam Moderation

[Eric Evans]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:10 AM, Michael Shuler  wrote:
> I won't reply to the obvious spam to hilight it any further, so new
> message..
>
> Could the mailing list moderator that approved the "client list" message
> identify themselves and possibly explain how that was seen as a valid
> message about the development of Apache Cassandra?

TL;DR That would be me.

My policy in moderating this list has always been to ignore the
obvious spam, and default to letting everything else through.  IMO, to
apply judgment beyond that is a very slippery slope.  Transparency and
openness are more important to me than protecting everyone from the
occasional false-positive spam and/or possibly off-topic message.

I also bang through the messages in the queue pretty quickly and make
the Obvious Spam -or- not judgement almost reflexively.  In this case,
I guess the lack of HTML, images, or attachments, along with the
presence of words like "Datastax", and "client" triggered a snap Not
Spam reaction and I sent it through.

But at least some of the reaction here seems to extend beyond a simple
matter of a spam message on the list (that has happened before); Some
here seem to be reacting out of concern to the very existence of the
email, which makes me think it's precisely the sort of thing that
shouldn't be kept hidden.


-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.ev...@gmail.com

Re: Spam Moderation

[Michael Shuler]

No replies, please.

This was resolved privately and was a simple mistake.

-- 
Kind regards,
Michael

Re: Spam Moderation

[Edward Capriolo]

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Daryl Hawken 
wrote:

> +1.
>
> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Michael Shuler 
> wrote:
>
> > I won't reply to the obvious spam to hilight it any further, so new
> > message..
> >
> > Could the mailing list moderator that approved the "client list" message
> > identify themselves and possibly explain how that was seen as a valid
> > message about the development of Apache Cassandra?
> >
> > --
> > Kind regards,
> > Michael
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Most people have more than the average number of legs*
>

While the dev list is not clearly the place, and ithe email is spam looking
it is interesting to know that someone is marketing such a list. I have
spoken at different events an those entities likely have my email so I am
curious about the list.

I think the situation is much like the "Free bsd backdoor emails"
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech=129236621626462=2 . IE even if you
believe  99.999% the info untrue do you pass the info along?

Re: Spam Moderation

[Daryl Hawken]

+1.

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:10 PM, Michael Shuler 
wrote:

> I won't reply to the obvious spam to hilight it any further, so new
> message..
>
> Could the mailing list moderator that approved the "client list" message
> identify themselves and possibly explain how that was seen as a valid
> message about the development of Apache Cassandra?
>
> --
> Kind regards,
> Michael
>



-- 
*Most people have more than the average number of legs*

Spam Moderation

[Michael Shuler]

I won't reply to the obvious spam to hilight it any further, so new
message..

Could the mailing list moderator that approved the "client list" message
identify themselves and possibly explain how that was seen as a valid
message about the development of Apache Cassandra?

-- 
Kind regards,
Michael

Re: Moderation

[Isabel Drost-Fromm]

On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 09:01:39AM +, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Because of the way we are structured from an operations point of view or is 
> necessary to have s commit bit to be a PMC member. However, that doesn't mean 
> one needs to commit code.
> 
> A good PMC member looks after the health of the community. They do not 
> necessarily write code. We have foundation members who have never committed a 
> line of code.

See also a recent discussion on this topic here:

https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/7b5f8b3475838c2312fcdac8cb8b88e5c2ac1a05e958d106c90a1fc8@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E

https://www.apache.org/foundation/getinvolved.html#become-a-committer


Cheers,
Isabel

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating a message 
> through in 12 hours.

Here it is again, 12 hours.  If we have a 12 hour SLA on moderation,
then you can remove me as a moderator; I can't do that.

-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.ev...@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek  wrote:
> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> committer/PMCs interested?

You are not.

> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.

No need to be sorry.

-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.ev...@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Eric Evans]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of 
> Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or 
> better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it 
> could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to 
> moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And 
> it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that 
> induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. 
> Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. 
> You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind 
> email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh 
> someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that simply 
> sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the first time? 
> Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or 
> friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on 
> Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had 
> on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets 
> retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her 
> conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are 
> arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

Wait, what?  As a moderator of this list (unpaid, volunteer), did I
miss the SLA I was being held to?  Are you volunteering to moderate
this list?


-- 
Eric Evans
john.eric.ev...@gmail.com

Re: Moderation

[Ross Gardler]

Because of the way we are structured from an operations point of view or is 
necessary to have s commit bit to be a PMC member. However, that doesn't mean 
one needs to commit code.

A good PMC member looks after the health of the community. They do not 
necessarily write code. We have foundation members who have never committed a 
line of code.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler

_
From: Jonathan Haddad <j...@jonhaddad.com<mailto:j...@jonhaddad.com>>
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Moderation
To: <bo...@apache.org<mailto:bo...@apache.org>>, 
<dev@cassandra.apache.org<mailto:dev@cassandra.apache.org>>


I took a look at 
https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Fdev%2Fpmc.html=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C2da70d5eaa664954f23908d406e25a8c%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636141016635815181=jtEQOzhIeaFryiBg7hcjiiLmoSwdBUEdGnOgu23SpO4%3D=0>,
 and it doesn't seem to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My 
assumption has always been the most active committers become PMC members, but 
it sounds like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be 
added to the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the 
project?  Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann 
<mattm...@apache.org<mailto:mattm...@apache.org>> wrote:
Sorry one typo below:

Where I said:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders 
becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of 
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

I meant to say:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community 
leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of 
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris


On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" 
<mattm...@apache.org<mailto:mattm...@apache.org>> wrote:

For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant 
is not
correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you 
know what I am
thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the 
PMC wasn’t doing its job,
because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community 
members of
Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to 
point out that
you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying 
to point out
that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as 
I believe you
have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC 
which in Tika,
Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the 
ability to have a
direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.

It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a 
single vendor who
has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), 
but by demonstration
has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part 
of the equation.
That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of 
events
happened:

1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on 
engaging
the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 
6
months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF 
member that
Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) 
was asking
questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could 
be much better
understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache 
Cassandra. I suggested
on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her 
which email address
to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread 
were people
who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they 
could have
done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache 
Cassandra PMC or not.
3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had 
continued with several
ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked 
Kelly why talk
there, and why not just talk to the email list

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith]

It was nothing but an expression of my belief that Chris' excuses for his
inappropriate behaviour were wholly inadequate.

This is not an isolated incident; it is a pattern of behaviour, and excuses
do not cut it.  Anything less than a wholesale acceptance of
inappropriateness, retraction, and commitment not to repeat this kind of
behaviour in future is insufficient.

Unlike you, I have no power, only words to express my disappointment in you
both.


On 6 November 2016 at 17:26, Jim Jagielski  wrote:

> If this is your attempt to accept Chris' explanation, even if
> you don't agree with it, then you have not quite succeeded.
>
> If instead, this is your attempt to continue to heap fuel on
> a fire, and be just as aggressive as you paint others to be, then
> you have done quite well.
>
> I don't expect that others will be spending their time replying
> to your messages anymore, at least on list.
>
> > On Nov 6, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith 
> wrote:
> >
> > In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the
> forefront of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily
> over email.  In that time you have not learned to express yourself over
> email in a manner that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive
> to the intended recipient.
> >
> > That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for
> the position of responsibility you currently hold.
> >
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Jim Jagielski]

If this is your attempt to accept Chris' explanation, even if
you don't agree with it, then you have not quite succeeded.

If instead, this is your attempt to continue to heap fuel on
a fire, and be just as aggressive as you paint others to be, then
you have done quite well.

I don't expect that others will be spending their time replying
to your messages anymore, at least on list.

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Benedict Elliott Smith  
> wrote:
> 
> In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the forefront 
> of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily over email.  
> In that time you have not learned to express yourself over email in a manner 
> that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive to the intended 
> recipient.
> 
> That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for the 
> position of responsibility you currently hold.
> 

Re: Moderation

[Jeffrey Jirsa]

r
>>the
>> past 6
>> months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
>> 2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an
>>ASF
>> member that
>> Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
>> previously) was asking
>> questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
>> could be much better
>> understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
>> Cassandra. I suggested
>> on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
>> her which email address
>> to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
>> thread were people
>> who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing
>>as
>> they could have
>> done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
>> Cassandra PMC or not.
>> 3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
>> had continued with several
>> ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
>> asked Kelly why talk
>> there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the
>>canonical
>> home for Apache Cassandra?
>> She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
>> 4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
>> in moderation) and yes it
>> was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
>> conversation that was heated
>> on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
>> intentions but I felt we were
>> wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something
>>through –
>> which to me was
>> a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
>> real answer was that the Apache
>> Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was
>> mostly going back and forth
>> with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
>> 5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are
>> more moderators now. I’m not sure
>> the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but
>>it’s
>> definitely something the PMC should
>> check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
>> responsibility.
>>
>> In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct
>> either of these words at anyone in particular.
>> I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from
>> time to time. Sorry.
>>
>> The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it
>>was
>> me saying – ideally – I would hope that
>> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their
>>community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>> its community understands the Apache Way.
>>
>> Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me
>> and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
>> these nuances that people would normally know having met each other
>>in
>> mediums besides email or electronically.
>> Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that
>>I
>> realize many of the people here for Apache
>> Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
>> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
>> and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my
>> words. That can lead to frustration and to other
>> emotions.
>>
>> Thanks for listening.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>> For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me
>> “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to
>>discredit
>> me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others
>>who
>> have messaged me off list see it as well:
>>
>> “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the
>> membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>>
>> Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>>
>> “You see I actually understand…”
>>
>> The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an
>> attack against me in an effort to

Re: Moderation

[Jonathan Haddad]

I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html, and it doesn't seem
to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has
always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds
like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to
the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?
Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Sorry one typo below:
>
> Where I said:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> I meant to say:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I
> meant is not
> correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do
> you know what I am
> thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying
> the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
> because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
> members of
> Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you
> to point out that
> you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example
> trying to point out
> that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the
> project as I believe you
> have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back
> IIRC which in Tika,
> Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
> ability to have a
> direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>
> It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
> single vendor who
> has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of
> Apache), but by demonstration
> has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache
> part of the equation.
> That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence
> of events
> happened:
>
> 1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point
> on engaging
> the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the
> past 6
> months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
> 2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
> member that
> Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
> previously) was asking
> questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
> could be much better
> understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
> Cassandra. I suggested
> on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
> her which email address
> to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
> thread were people
> who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as
> they could have
> done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
> Cassandra PMC or not.
> 3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
> had continued with several
> ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
> asked Kelly why talk
> there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical
> home for Apache Cassandra?
> She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
> 4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
> in moderation) and yes it
> was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
> conversation that was heated
> on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
> intentions but I felt we were
> wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
> which to me was
> a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
> real answer was that the Apache
> Cassandra 

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith]

In summary: you claim to be someone with years of experience at the
forefront of an organisation that conducts all of its business primarily
over email.  In that time you have not learned to express yourself over
email in a manner that is not incendiary to those reading it, nor offensive
to the intended recipient.

That sounds to me like you are openly disclaiming your suitability for the
position of responsibility you currently hold.

On 6 November 2016 at 14:53, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

> For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I
> meant is not
> correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you
> know what I am
> thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the
> PMC wasn’t doing its job,
> because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
> members of
> Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to
> point out that
> you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying
> to point out
> that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project
> as I believe you
> have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC
> which in Tika,
> Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
> ability to have a
> direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>
> It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
> single vendor who
> has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache),
> but by demonstration
> has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache
> part of the equation.
> That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of
> events
> happened:
>
> 1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on
> engaging
> the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the
> past 6
> months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
> 2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
> member that
> Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously)
> was asking
> questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could
> be much better
> understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
> Cassandra. I suggested
> on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her
> which email address
> to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
> thread were people
> who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as
> they could have
> done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
> Cassandra PMC or not.
> 3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had
> continued with several
> ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked
> Kelly why talk
> there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home
> for Apache Cassandra?
> She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
> 4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in
> moderation) and yes it
> was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
> conversation that was heated
> on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
> intentions but I felt we were
> wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
> which to me was
> a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real
> answer was that the Apache
> Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly
> going back and forth
> with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
> 5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more
> moderators now. I’m not sure
> the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s
> definitely something the PMC should
> check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
> responsibility.
>
> In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either
> of these words at anyone in particular.
> I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to
> time. Sorry.
>
> The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.
>
> Russell and I have never met in person so he does no

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

Sorry one typo below:

Where I said:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders 
becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of 
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

I meant to say:

“The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community 
leaders becoming “ASF members”,
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of 
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way.”

Thanks.

Cheers,
Chris


On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant 
is not 
correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you 
know what I am 
thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the 
PMC wasn’t doing its job, 
because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community 
members of  
Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to 
point out that 
you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying 
to point out 
that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as 
I believe you 
have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC 
which in Tika,
Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the 
ability to have a
direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.

It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a 
single vendor who
has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), 
but by demonstration
has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part 
of the equation.
That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of 
events
happened:

1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on 
engaging
the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 
6
months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me. 
2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF 
member that 
Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) 
was asking
questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could 
be much better
understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache 
Cassandra. I suggested
on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her 
which email address
to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread 
were people 
who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they 
could have 
done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache 
Cassandra PMC or not.
3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had 
continued with several
ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked 
Kelly why talk
there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home 
for Apache Cassandra?
She told me she sent the mail the prior night. 
4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in 
moderation) and yes it
was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email 
conversation that was heated
on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions 
but I felt we were 
wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through – 
which to me was
a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real 
answer was that the Apache
Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly 
going back and forth
with were not the moderators of the mailing lists. 
5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more 
moderators now. I’m not sure
the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s 
definitely something the PMC should
check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying 
responsibility. 

In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of 
these words at anyone in particular.
I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to 
time. Sorry. 

The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community 
leaders becoming “ASF members”, 
and that Cassandr

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I meant is 
not 
correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do you know 
what I am 
thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying the PMC 
wasn’t doing its job, 
because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community members 
of  
Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you to point 
out that 
you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example trying to 
point out 
that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the project as I 
believe you 
have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back IIRC 
which in Tika,
Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the ability 
to have a
direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.

It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a single 
vendor who
has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of Apache), but by 
demonstration
has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache part of 
the equation.
That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence of events
happened:

1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point on 
engaging
the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the past 6
months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me. 
2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF member 
that 
Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know previously) was 
asking
questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed could be 
much better
understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache Cassandra. 
I suggested
on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told her which 
email address
to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the thread 
were people 
who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as they 
could have 
done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache Cassandra 
PMC or not.
3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue had 
continued with several
ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I asked Kelly 
why talk
there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical home for 
Apache Cassandra?
She told me she sent the mail the prior night. 
4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck in 
moderation) and yes it
was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email conversation 
that was heated
on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good intentions but 
I felt we were 
wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through – which to 
me was
a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the real 
answer was that the Apache
Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was mostly going 
back and forth
with were not the moderators of the mailing lists. 
5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are more 
moderators now. I’m not sure
the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s 
definitely something the PMC should
check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying 
responsibility. 

In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct either of 
these words at anyone in particular.
I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from time to 
time. Sorry. 

The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me 
saying – ideally – I would hope that
the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community leaders 
becoming “ASF members”, 
and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the responsibilities of 
the PMC to move towards ensuring
its community understands the Apache Way. 

Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me and nor I 
him. So he doesn’t know some of
these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in mediums 
besides email or electronically.
Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I realize 
many of the people here for Apache
Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please realize I 
do too. I care about the ASF and projects
and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my words. That 
can lead to frustration and to other
emotions. 

Thanks for listening. 

Cheers,
Chris



On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.  
I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I will 
break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged me off 
list see it as well:
   

Re: Moderation

[Jonathan Haddad]

> > I'll wait.
> > >
> > >
> > > Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe
> > you lack the
> > > professionalism and character to be a board member of
> > anything, let
> > > alone
> > > representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
> ideals.
> > > I've CC'd the
> > > rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally
> > complain about
> > > your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct
> > within this
> > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
> > volunteers. I
> > > believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
> > have been
> > > attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
> > tension in an
> > > already
> > > tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am
> > misreading
> > > here. I
> > > personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> > capacity, such as a
> > > board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> > professionalism and
> > > conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board
> > member hat
> > > on
> > > or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire
> > Apache board
> > > encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
> > >
> > > -Russ
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
> > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > s/sis/is
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
> > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Chris,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
> ticket I
> > > filed:
> > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> -Jason
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
> > > <mattm...@apache.org>
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like
> to
> > > be added. Did
> > > > you
> > > > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
> > > haven't yet, no worries
> > > > I
> > > > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
> > > <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>> Gary,
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
> > > component due to this
> > > > >>> thread;
> > > > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
> > > Yes, I would like
> > > > to
> > > > >>> be
> > > > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
> > > (as per
> > > > >>>>
> > > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators
> ),
> > > > >>> which
> > > > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> -Jason
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
> > > <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
> > > only one with moderator privs. Any
> > > > >>> other
> > > > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
> > > I've been traveling this week.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Gary.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
> > > <mattm...@apache.org>
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
> > > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > > > >>> figure
> > > > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > > > >>>>>> Chris
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[paul cannon]

gt; Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
> > <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > s/sis/is
> > > >
> > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
> > <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Chris,
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I
> > filed:
> > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >>
> > > >> -Jason
> > > >>
> > > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
> > <mattm...@apache.org>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to
> > be added. Did
> > > you
> > > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
> > haven't yet, no worries
> > > I
> > > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
> > <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>> Gary,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
> > component due to this
> > > >>> thread;
> > > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
> > Yes, I would like
> > > to
> > > >>> be
> > > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
> > (as per
> > > >>>>
> > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> > > >>> which
> > > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> -Jason
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
> > <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
> > only one with moderator privs. Any
> > > >>> other
> > > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
> > I've been traveling this week.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Gary.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
> > <mattm...@apache.org>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
> > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > > >>> figure
> > > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > > >>>>>> Chris
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry]

 > >>> be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
> (as per
> > >>>> 
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> > >>> which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
> <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
> only one with moderator privs. Any
> > >>> other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
> I've been traveling this week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
> <mattm...@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
> dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > >>> figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Mark Struberg]

,
> > >>
> > >> -Jason
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann 
> <mattm...@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to 
> be added. Did
> > you
> > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you 
> haven't yet, no worries
> > I
> > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown 
> <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator 
> component due to this
> > >>> thread;
> > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). 
> Yes, I would like
> > to
> > >>> be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket 
> (as per
> > >>>> 
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> > >>> which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek 
> <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the 
> only one with moderator privs. Any
> > >>> other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and 
> I've been traveling this week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
> <mattm...@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to 
> dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > >>> figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[San Luoji]

hris
>
> On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>- ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great
>job.
>- Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit
> instead
>of ...
>- ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll
> wait.
>
>
> Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
> professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let
> alone
> representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd
> the
> rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain
> about
> your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
> mailing list.
>
> This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
> believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
> attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an
> already
> tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading
> here. I
> personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
> board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism
> and
> conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat
> on
> or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
> encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>
> -Russ
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > s/sis/is
> > >
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <
> jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Chris,
> > >>
> > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
> > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> -Jason
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattm...@apache.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added.
> Did
> > you
> > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no
> worries
> > I
> > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to
> this
> > >>> thread;
> > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would
> like
> > to
> > >>> be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-
> moderators),
> > >>> which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <
> gdusba...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator
> privs. Any
> > >>> other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this
> week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattm...@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying
> to
> > >>> figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: Moderation - Apache terms

[Shane Curcuru]

Sigh - sorry about breaking threading, the In-Reply-To header apparently
didn't get set when using "reply via your own mail client" from
lists.a.o.  Luckily, it runs code from the Apache Pony Mail podling, so
hopefully we can fix it ourselves!

- Shane

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry]

t; wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator 
privs. Any
> >>> other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this 
week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann 
<mattm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> >>> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

use I would like to formally complain about
your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
mailing list.

This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an already
tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading here. I
personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat on
or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.

-Russ



On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > s/sis/is
> >
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >>>
> >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> you
> >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
> I
> >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Gary,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> >>> thread;
> >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> to
> >>> be
> >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> >>> which
> >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jason
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. 
Any
> >>> other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> >>> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation - Apache terms

[Shane Curcuru]

On 2016-11-04 14:52 (-0400), Jeff Beck  wrote:
> Is there an easy place to get up to speed on all the ASF terms?
> Infra Karma, apmail, etc... I feel behind on understanding what is
> being talked about here.

Sure.  Jake sent the glossary, but there are some other good starting
points to learn about how projects at Apache work:

Big picture description of how corporate and project governance works:

  https://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/

The Community Development project is designed to help newcomers to
Apache projects find their way around, and the dev@community list there
is the best place to ask general non-technical questions:

  https://community.apache.org/

The official Apache mail archive stores all public Apache mailing lists
for all projects and now provides a great new UI, threaded mode, rich
search, and reply-to features (in browser or in your mail client):

  https://lists.apache.org/

Here's a great blog post explaining Apache governance in a very
conversational way - I hadn't read it before now, but love it:


https://blog.codecentric.de/en/2016/03/apache-software-foundation-behind-scenes/

Separately, one of the problems that has been reported in the past is
certain vendors abusing Apache trademarks.  All Apache project names and
logos are legal trademarks of the ASF, and we have a lot of resources
about our trademark and branding policies.

  https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/resources

Hope that helps.  And hope that we can return to some more, um, polite
and constructive dialog going forward as well.

- Shane

Re: Moderation

[Russell Bradberry]

   - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great
   job.
   - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead
   of ...
   - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.


Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe you lack the
professionalism and character to be a board member of anything, let alone
representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals. I've CC'd the
rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally complain about
your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct within this
mailing list.

This list, and community, are made up of individuals and volunteers. I
believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may have been
attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates tension in an already
tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am misreading here. I
personally feel that someone acting in a leadership capacity, such as a
board member, should be held to a higher standard of professionalism and
conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board member hat on
or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire Apache board
encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.

-Russ



On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > s/sis/is
> >
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Chris,
> >>
> >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -Jason
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >>>
> >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> you
> >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
> I
> >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Gary,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> >>> thread;
> >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> to
> >>> be
> >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> >>> which
> >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jason
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
> >>> other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> >>> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation

[Jake Farrell]

Hey Jeff
This link should help a little

http://apache.org/foundation/glossary.html

-Jake

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Jeff Beck <beckj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there an easy place to get up to speed on all the ASF terms? Infra
> Karma, apmail, etc... I feel behind on understanding what is being talked
> about here.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM Michael Kjellman <
> mkjell...@internalcircle.com> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Chris.
> >
> > I have just replied to her email myself.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this
> > thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there
> > weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly
> this
> > is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of
> moderators,
> > ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time.
> I
> > can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I
> > participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.)
> > and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also
> > elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter
> > and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also
> > denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So,
> > regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing
> > to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound
> > off in 25+ different mediums.
> > >
> > > Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of
> > the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my
> > knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It
> > would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as
> well.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <
> > mkjell...@internalcircle.com> wrote:
> > >> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could
> > you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her
> > email? Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in
> > front of my eyes â~¹ï¸
> > >>
> > >> best,
> > >> kjellman
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> > >>>
> > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> > you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no
> worries
> > I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>> Gary,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> > thread;
> > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> > to be
> > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> > >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators
> ),
> > which
> > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -Jason
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs.
> > Any other
> > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this
> week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Gary.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <
> mattm...@apache.org>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> > figure
> > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Cheers,
> > >>>>>> Chris
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Jeff Beck]

Is there an easy place to get up to speed on all the ASF terms? Infra
Karma, apmail, etc... I feel behind on understanding what is being talked
about here.

Jeff

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:31 PM Michael Kjellman <
mkjell...@internalcircle.com> wrote:

> Thank you Chris.
>
> I have just replied to her email myself.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this
> thread was a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there
> weren't enough moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly this
> is the Apache Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of moderators,
> ideally in diverse timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time. I
> can only provide answers from most of the other Apache communities I
> participate in (Tika, Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.)
> and in those communities, that *is* a long time. That said, this was also
> elevated because I saw someone with real questions asking them on Twitter
> and not on ASF lists pertaining to the projects (Yes there was also
> denigrating statements about both DataStax and ASF in there too). So,
> regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly the "Apache" thing
> to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, rather than sound
> off in 25+ different mediums.
> >
> > Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of
> the problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my
> knowledge as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It
> would be great for the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as well.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >> On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <
> mkjell...@internalcircle.com> wrote:
> >> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could
> you please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her
> email? Thanks.
> >>
> >> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in
> front of my eyes â~¹ï¸
> >>
> >> best,
> >> kjellman
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
> >>>
> >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did
> you file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries
> I can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> Gary,
> >>>>
> >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> thread;
> >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like
> to be
> >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> which
> >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jason
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs.
> Any other
> >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Gary.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>> Chris
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

I'm sorry that you feel I'm promoting the arguing. The point of this thread was 
a simple request - moderate the email. I suspected that there weren't enough 
moderators but didn't spend the time to check. Honestly this is the Apache 
Cassandra PMC's job to maintain a healthy set of moderators, ideally in diverse 
timezones. Some may not feel 12 hours is a long time. I can only provide 
answers from most of the other Apache communities I participate in (Tika, 
Nutch, OODT, Hadoop, Solr/Lucene, Incubator, etc.) and in those communities, 
that *is* a long time. That said, this was also elevated because I saw someone 
with real questions asking them on Twitter and not on ASF lists pertaining to 
the projects (Yes there was also denigrating statements about both DataStax and 
ASF in there too). So, regarding that, the grown up thing to do (and honestly 
the "Apache" thing to do) is to bring the conversation on list, and talk, 
rather than sound off in 25+ different mediums. 

Now we've added a least one more moderator, which will help the root of the 
problem. And Kelly's email is on list. I will try and reply with my knowledge 
as a concerned ASF member first, and Board Member second. It would be great for 
the Apache Cassandra PMC and community to reply as well.

Cheers,
Chris


On 2016-11-04 10:14 (-0700), Michael Kjellman <mkjell...@internalcircle.com> 
wrote: 
> @Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could you 
> please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her email? 
> Thanks. 
> 
> I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in front 
> of my eyes ☹️
> 
> best,
> kjellman
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > 
> > I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 
> > 
> > Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you 
> > file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I 
> > can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> > 
> >> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> >> Gary,
> >> 
> >> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
> >> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
> >> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> >> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
> >> I will do in the next few minutes.
> >> 
> >> -Jason
> >> 
> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any 
> >>> other
> >>> committer/PMCs interested?
> >>> 
> >>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >>> 
> >>> Gary.
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Hi Folks,
> >>>> 
> >>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> >>>> out if it's in moderation.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Can the moderators speak up?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Cheers,
> >>>> Chris
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> 

Re: Moderation

[Mattmann, Chris A (3010)]

Mark Thomas got it done ✅ 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> s/sis/is
> 
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Chris,
>> 
>> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -Jason
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>>> 
>>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you
>>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I
>>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>> 
>>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Gary,
>>>> 
>>>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
>>> thread;
>>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to
>>> be
>>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>>>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>>> which
>>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>>>> 
>>>> -Jason
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
>>> other
>>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>>> figure
>>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 

Re: Moderation

[Michael Kjellman]

@Chris: instead of promoting the arguing going on on this thread could you 
please help lead by example and reply to Kelly's questions in her email? 
Thanks. 

I don't enjoy watching a community I care about continue to explode in front of 
my eyes ☹️

best,
kjellman

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 
> 
> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file 
> the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still 
> add you. Let me know. Thanks.
> 
>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> Gary,
>> 
>> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>> 
>> -Jason
>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>> 
>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>>> 
>>> Gary.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Folks,
>>>> 
>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>>> 
>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Chris
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 

Re: Moderation

[Jason Brown]

Chris,

Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket I filed:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.

Thanks,

-Jason

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>
> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you
> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I
> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Gary,
> >
> > I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this
> thread;
> > I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to
> be
> > added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
> which
> > I will do in the next few minutes.
> >
> > -Jason
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any
> other
> > > committer/PMCs interested?
> > >
> > > Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> > >
> > > Gary.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Folks,
> > > >
> > > > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> > > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > >
> > > > Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

I have apmail karma and can add moderators. 

Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like to be added. Did you file 
the ticket - if so point me to it. If you haven't yet, no worries I can still 
add you. Let me know. Thanks.

On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown <jasedbr...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Gary,
> 
> I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
> I will do in the next few minutes.
> 
> -Jason
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> > committer/PMCs interested?
> >
> > Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
> >
> > Gary.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > > out if it's in moderation.
> > >
> > > Can the moderators speak up?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Jason Brown]

Gary,

I've just started looking into the moderator component due to this thread;
I admit I did not know about it before (my fault). Yes, I would like to be
added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket (as per
https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators), which
I will do in the next few minutes.

-Jason

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek <gdusba...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
> committer/PMCs interested?
>
> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.
>
> Gary.
>
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > out if it's in moderation.
> >
> > Can the moderators speak up?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Chris
> >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith]

I'm not a PMC, and given everything that's happened recently, I no longer
have any desire to be.

I have nothing against improving the moderator situation.  What I have, and
continue to have, is something against the way you and the board go about
things.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:57, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <bened...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much
> looks
> > like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> > making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it
> seems
> > unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let
> alone
> > ire.
> >
> > I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> > volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> > Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad,
> seems
> > like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> >
>
>  She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and
> read the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the
> whole premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where
> potentially knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know,
> the project here at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are
> at the 6th email, and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that
> could enable a conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than
> Twitter still remains not being had here.
>
> I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high
> volume list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing
> moderating a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real
> question - are there enough moderators for the list in different timezones
> that can appropriately ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is
> that your goal? Are you on the Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's
> healthy to send emails trying to talk shit instead of simply moderating
> messages through that could ground the conversation here at the ASF?
>
> Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the
> board look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making
> the board look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or
> is Twitter the official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.
>
>
>
>
> > On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a
> user
> > > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done
> right or
> > > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit
> when it
> > > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community.
> And
> > > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community
> itself.
> > > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first
> time.
> > > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a
> kind
> > > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe,
> which
> > > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through
> the
> > > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> > >
> > > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy
> or
> > > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have
> been
> > > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw
> her
> > > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly
> to
> > > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through.
> Wow.
> > > Great job.
> > >
> > > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > > >
>

Re: Moderation

[Gary Dusbabek]

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the only one with moderator privs. Any other
committer/PMCs interested?

Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and I've been traveling this week.

Gary.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> out if it's in moderation.
>
> Can the moderators speak up?
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

On 2016-11-04 09:51 (-0700), Benedict Elliott Smith <bened...@apache.org> 
wrote: 
> Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
> like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
> making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
> unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
> ire.
> 
> I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
> volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
> Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
> like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.
> 

 She is welcome to denigrate the Apache Board. In fact, if you go back and read 
the Tweets she was originally doing so to DataStax. That said, the whole 
premise is that this is a conversation happening on Twitter where potentially 
knowledge could be gained about *Apache* Cassandra. You know, the project here 
at the ASF? And not somewhere else? Yet again, here we are at the 6th email, 
and the 2 second task to moderate a message through that could enable a 
conversation to be had on the *Apache* lists rather than Twitter still remains 
not being had here. 

I have been subscribed to dev@cassandra for months. This is not a high volume 
list. AT ALL. Yet you act like it's volunteer time that's preventing moderating 
a message through in 12 hours. Instead of asking the real question - are there 
enough moderators for the list in different timezones that can appropriately 
ensure that conversation happens on the list? Is that your goal? Are you on the 
Apache Cassandra PMC? Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk 
shit instead of simply moderating messages through that could ground the 
conversation here at the ASF? 

Clearly per your snark and email you are pleased with Kelly "making the board 
look bad" [sic] on Twitter. Why not increase the visibility of making the board 
look bad and do so here on the official list for the project? Or is Twitter the 
official list now? Go ahead, I'll wait.




> On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> > So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> > of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> > better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> > could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> > moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> > it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> > induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> > Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> > You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> > email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> > oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> > simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> > first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
> >
> > This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> > friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> > Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> > had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> > tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> > bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> > moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> > Great job.
> >
> > On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Is the message in moderation because
> > > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> > >
> > > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > > someone list properly?
> > > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > > (probably not)
> > >
> > > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > > information.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > > thinking her message didn't

Re: Moderation

[Benedict Elliott Smith]

Wow, that was quite the aggressive email. The thing is, it very much looks
like the only reason you care about this delay is because Kellabyte is
making the ASF board look bad on twitter.  If it weren't the case, it seems
unlikely such a "slow" 12hr response would receive board notice, let alone
ire.

I think the board forgets that all of these functions are fulfilled by
volunteers (whoever the moderators are - I genuinely haven't a clue).
Expecting volunteers to jump to it, because the board is looking bad, seems
like a pretty clear *abuse* of process.

On 4 November 2016 at 16:44, Chris Mattmann <mattm...@apache.org> wrote:

> So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user
> of Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or
> better or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it
> could have been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to
> moderate it through? This is the definition of process over community. And
> it's the definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that
> induces the processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself.
> Seriously this is a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time.
> You think potentially moderating her mail through and then sending a kind
> email suggesting she look at the instructions for how to subscribe, which
> oh someone may not have found easy to do or simply not understood that
> simply sending an email to the list wouldn't have made it go through the
> first time? Is it that hard to figure out? Really?
>
> This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or
> friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on
> Twitter about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been
> had on Apache mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her
> tweets retweeted by someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to
> bring her conversation to the list. 12 hours later it's still in
> moderation, and we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it through. Wow.
> Great job.
>
> On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Is the message in moderation because
> > 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> > 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> >
> > If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> > someone list properly?
> > If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> > (probably not)
> >
> > I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> > social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> > information.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> > chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening
> there
> > > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with
> that
> > > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please
> moderate
> > > the message through?
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > > >> Hi Folks,
> > > >>
> > > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
> figure
> > > out if it's in moderation.
> > > >>
> > > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > > >
> > > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is
> waiting
> > > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

So seriously, we're going to send now 4 emails talking about what a user of 
Apache Cassandra and possible community member could have done right or better 
or sooner, or that there is no time limit to moderating shit when it could have 
been as simple as literally sending a confirmation email to moderate it 
through? This is the definition of process over community. And it's the 
definition (wrongly so) of why people think it's "Apache" that induces the 
processes that make shit hard, and not the community itself. Seriously this is 
a joke. So what if she didn't do it right the first time. You think potentially 
moderating her mail through and then sending a kind email suggesting she look 
at the instructions for how to subscribe, which oh someone may not have found 
easy to do or simply not understood that simply sending an email to the list 
wouldn't have made it go through the first time? Is it that hard to figure out? 
Really?

This is the definition of making things hard and not making them easy or 
friendly. And this is also exactly what enables people to sound off on Twitter 
about a project, and loses the conversation that could have been had on Apache 
mailing lists. Kelly has been tweeting for days. I saw her tweets retweeted by 
someone in my feed, and yesterday asked her kindly to bring her conversation to 
the list. 12 hours later it's still in moderation, and we are arguing whether 
to f'ing moderate it through. Wow. Great job.

On 2016-11-04 09:37 (-0700), Edward Capriolo <edlinuxg...@gmail.com> wrote: 
> Is the message in moderation because
> 1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
> 2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)
> 
> If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
> someone list properly?
> If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
> (probably not)
> 
> I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
> social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
> information.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
> chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> 
> > Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> > thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> > when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> > continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> > the message through?
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> > >> Hi Folks,
> > >>
> > >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> > out if it's in moderation.
> > >>
> > >> Can the moderators speak up?
> > >
> > > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> >
> 

Re: Moderation

[Edward Capriolo]

Is the message in moderation because
1) it was sent by someone not registered with the list
2) some other reason (anti-spam etc)

If it is is case 1: Isn't the correct process to inform and encourage
someone list properly?
If it is case 2: Is there an expected ETA for list moderation events?
(probably not)

I see twitter mentioned. We know that sometimes news and sentiment in
social media move fast and cause reactions on incorrect/unvetted
information.


On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:58 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting
> thinking her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there
> when that same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that
> continuing to happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate
> the message through?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure
> out if it's in moderation.
> >>
> >> Can the moderators speak up?
> >
> > Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> > for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> > doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>

Re: Moderation

[Mattmann, Chris A (3010)]

Hmm. Not excessive but you have a situation where someone is tweeting thinking 
her message didn't go through and conversation is happening there when that 
same conversation could be had on list. If you are ok with that continuing to 
happen then great but I am not. Can someone please moderate the message through?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 8:54 AM, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>> 
>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out 
>> if it's in moderation.
>> 
>> Can the moderators speak up?
> 
> Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
> for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
> doesn't strike me as at all excessive.
> 
> Mark
> 

Re: Moderation

[Mark Thomas]

On 04/11/2016 15:47, Chris Mattmann wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> 
> Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if 
> it's in moderation.
> 
> Can the moderators speak up?

Using my infra karma, I checked the mail server. That message is waiting
for moderator approval. It has been in moderation for 12 hours which
doesn't strike me as at all excessive.

Mark

Moderation

[Chris Mattmann]

Hi Folks,

Kelly Sommers sent a message to dev@cassandra and I'm trying to figure out if 
it's in moderation.

Can the moderators speak up? 

Cheers,
Chris